I don't want them back. At all. I'd literally never play with kids again if they came back. I never liked toddlers at all. Sure, the little Sims are cute as heck, but I HATE having to teach them to walk, talk, and use the pooper. And in TS3, if you DON'T do it, then the game decides to make the child's traits plum, and you get punished for it! *thumbs up*
If I wanted to do something I didn't like, I'd be doing the dishes in real life right now, GAME.
Also, I find this whole toddler thing very creepy, no offense. There are ENDLESS posts about it ALL OVER the forum, which I personally am getting sick of. Sometimes the thread would be cleverly named to disguise itself from being a toddler thread. Even though the jump from baby to full kid is weird, I'll gladly accept it over needing to teach li'l Johnny to walk and talk. And even without toddlers, I still have fun with family play in TS4. This is my opinion. You may not like it, but it's MINE.
Fair points and indeed you are entitled to your opinion and you have the right to defend that.
The main thing I agree with about your points however is not just the fact that babies growing straight to children is lacking, which it very much is but it is the amount of toddler threads going which I can see annoys some Simmers.
Now don't get me wrong, I have always defended family players but at the same time, I wish to see common ground between those who do not care for toddlers, those who are happy with TS4 the way it is, or at least see other things lacking. Sadly when you get these two types of players in one thread, as decent as these players are with good intentions, there is always a debate which is why I think many re sick of the forums as there is always too much opposition.
I actually wish to restore peace in the community, I myself used to be one of the warriors of the forum but slowly I started to have a change of outlook, I am one of a very small few who where part of the original BBS back in 2000 so I remember the good times when there was no wars or dramas between threads so if people think I am contradicting myself when writing threads, I am actually trying to find common ground between players, while trying to promote healthy feedback for the developers which they could put to use in the long term.
As I said, I do support family players but at the same time, I will need to step away and support other players along the way so that I never have to be assigned to one side or the other.
I apologise if I annoyed you and I am aware of why players want toddlers in the game but I feel that there needs to be other things addressed before they start adding more content. If players want toddlers just because they want them then that is understandable but my concern is would they really enhance the game beyond being another life stage.
They'll keep adding content anyway, why not add something that would make a significant portion of players happy?
There is a lot of threads about toddlers, thats true. Like they were the main pointof the game, yeah, it's kinda creepy sometimes. But I think this happens for 2 reasons:
1. New players get the game and realize they are missing. Expect yet another thread about it.
2. People bring up the toddlers as the main point to make it quick, but they are really talking about toddlers + all the content lacking in the game. Taking a whole life stage away is the most visible, in-your-face aspect that is missing. Like someone said: the elephant in the room.
I've seen stirring the pot. That's not what the OP is doing. The OP simply has, or is making an argument for, an unpopular perspective. That doesn't make him a troll and if it did, that would make me very sad because it's on the level of cult mentality ("if you aren't with us, you're our enemy").
I think what the OP is trying to say is, maybe there are some underlying issues with the game that should be of a higher priority than adding toddlers. Such as culling. Among other arguments.
I was with you until I read that the OP has never played TS4 and doesnt intend to.
Ok, another thing I have been thinking about is what I see as a vicious circle. In this case, a strong barrier between the community and the development team:
As TS4 was released, there was a very strong opposition, the devs where overwhelmed by the opposition, even Rachel Framklin herself said that last year, the devs may have brushed this off as 'teething issues' and hope players may warm up later on.
Players feel brushed off and become more agitated, people got banned from the forums, threads closed, moved or deleted to try and tidy things up to keep the main areas more relaxed for new players or those happy with TS4.
Players then feel silenced and an 'us and them' mentality is formed.
The devs feel less welcome in the community as new content is jeered at so the silence continues.
Players now become concerned about future content.
New content is announced, in this case GT via the Gamescom announcement and is met with mixed results. The opposers feel 'they are not listening' while the devs feel the community is too heated and again, the silence continues.
Players continue to feel ignored and the divide in the community remains. Some players have taken positive steps to make contact with the development team to try and restore the balance between constructive critism and valid concerns.
A render featuring a toddler is given as a gift to the CEO's wife leading to an overwhelming level of hype and speculation that becomes false. A very small yet vocal number of players take things to the extremes creating a further distance that had existed previously and also undoing the positive steps some players had made.
The silence continues.
...............
Now this vicious circle may not be acurate, but could well be part of the issue. No one is right or wrong as such but for progression to be made, some degree of change would be needed. At the end of the day this is Sims game we are talking about, no one is forcing anyone to play anything and if the outcome is not what you hoped for then maybe it is time to seek new outcomes elsewhere.
OK before everyone gets excited, I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone, however I am curious to why so many people are still speculating that EP3 might be about toddlers, when it won't be out for months yet and no announcement will be made for a long time either.
The thing is, I see across these forums players saying they will not be happy until toddlers are added like they are some sort of 'given right' in the game. Yet lets look forward, and say toddlers where actually added, would you really enjoy playing with them? I mean, what can you do with toddlers other than teach to walk, talk, potty train and ready books. Ok, they might play with toys, they might be able to play with other toddler and they will make cute pictures but what else?
Will these toddlers be able to get a job? Go on a date? Get married and have kids of their own? Not while they are toddlers of course so aside from being cute, and they would certainly be an improvement from being a baby growing straight into a child, I can't really see what value they would give to a Sims game other compared to other life stages.
Now lets look at weather or not they are considered 'base content' and weather people should pay for them. I don't actually have much to say on that, they have never officially been regarded as base content, only other than they appeared in two previous Sims games. One popular suggestion is that if they ever came back in a 'Generations EP' then they could come for free in a patch. Ok cool, but then what would be the point in a Generations EP if you get toddlers for free anyway? A few interactions, a new town to play in and some clothing? Sounds more like a GP to me?
One of popular suggestion is that pre teens could come in an EP, so you get toddlers for free but to get the pre teens you have to pay for the EP. Sounds good for those who want them but now you have two life stages being made, that is twice the amount of coding to make the animations, twice the amount of testing ad twice the amount of time that will be needed to make such an EP, and why should a never been seen before preteen life stage be used to be a 'pull factor' to get people to buy an EP that would compensate toddlers being given for free?
Am I getting at something here?
Now I have been speaking to a lot of Simmers, there are many who have different opinions, some where disappointed with TS4 for a number of reasons and have long since moved on while others enjoy TS4 and do not even want toddlers in the game, nor do they want a Generations P to be thrown out just to appease people. A lot of players want a strong and stable game and to see other issues to be addressed first. I said this a few times lately but it seems that there are much more important things that need to be dealt with people more content is thrown out. Culling is an issue I see mentioned a lot and if that is an issue, then how would that be improved when you start throwing toddlers into the mix?
A lot of players are concerned about the 'silence' over the situation and there are some very good threads about that, but to be honest, I can't blame the devs to keep quiet on things. At the end of their day if they cannot talk about future content, then that is the way things are going to be. If I was a dev and working on a game, the last thing I would want to see every single time I go online is floods of messages from disgruntled players about content they want while at the same time I am also seeing compliments from happy players.
The way I see it is this, if you don't like a game, don't play it, no one is forcing you to buy any more content for that game. I have been disappointed by games before as well, Tomb Raider 2013 being one big kick in the teeth to me, yet their was a popular following so I just shrugged it off as not being the game from me and I moved on from it, loading up TS3 and all was well again
So my purpose of this thread is not to debate with anyone, but I clearly have a few things I want to say for a while, toddlers are not the be all and end off of The Sims, they are a minor life stage and if you cannot enjoy other aspects of the game, then I don't think you will enjoy the much more with toddlers either. If you are happy with TS4 however, I do apologise for the hate you must have top see every day. I do not play TS4 myself for my own reasons and I have stated my reasons before but I respect other people's opinions as we are all Simmers at the end of the day
Thanks for reading and if you are going to respond then please do so respectfully and refrain from attacking others if their points of view differ from your.
Happy Simming!
Peace
I have to give a shout out to you for this one King. It is a really well presented post. For myself, I love Sims 4 as it is, but I will also enjoy the tots if they come. I play the Sims to create stories, and toddlers are not necessary for me as I just do stories that don't include tots, but if they are offered I will buy them. I do not expect them to be free, so I have no issues on that score. As far as the base game goes, the base game is whatever they say it is. I agree that just because toddlers were in two of the others does not make them a base game item.
I no longer care about toddlers, too little too late. However, I will not play a family again in this game ever, until they make the baby (nine months old) Stop turning into a nine year old child. If you played this game you would know how overwhelming that is. And no one even runs over to cheer and use those party whistles etc. There isn't even a birthday where everyone wants to grab the baby and help with birthday like in TS2 or TS3. The baby is just stuck to the crib then blast it way through into a kid I would say looks to be about ten years old. WTH? How is that immersion? What the heck happened to the last ten years but mom and dad aren't any older?
Seriously, it's not only the missing game play it's the fact they think long time players can swallow this lack of attention to detail and be happy with it. It's the fact they 'knew' from their own forums this was a very important life stage to everyone. Yes, some people don't like toddlers (play them) but I bet they don't actually like that jarring BAM 'you are now a ten year old kid' effect, either. As long as they could age up shortly with a cheat or an option to age to birthday.
It's a matter of principle on what was said, what has since been said and what isn't happening. But the number one answer from me is LIFE SIMULTATOR>>>immersion!
I am a long time simmer and it doesn't bother me in the least. And they don't look like 10 year old tweens. They look to be about 6 to 8 years old. A good little kid age. I can accept that it might bother you, but all the Sims games are life simulators, to include Sims 1. It simple refers to a game based on ordinary life, working, buying a home, having a family, etc. Rather than slaying dragons, shooting zombies, etc. Now I like the tots well enough and I will buy them if they come. People who think that they will be "patched" in for free are most likely dreaming. They will cost too much to produce to be given away. The base game and all the add ons, will be patched to accept them, but that does not mean that the actual toddlers will have to be added to the base game.
@ King of SimCity 7, I see where you was going with your post and for some simmers this might be all they want but as for me it is much more than toddlers and you are right about it not being the end all because I want more than toddlers, I want some editing tools such as neighborhood creation tools, terrain editing tools, lot creation tools, etc. I do not play with toddlers but for those that want them I do hope they get them.
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I think he OP's remarks are very interesting, actually. I mean, the toddlers are the thing that people use to complai mostly about the game, but would adding them make a change to everyone who is complaining?
To me, personally: I don't like babies and toddlers, but this is a life simulation game, and it was kind of expected, as TS2 had introduced them. And the point of having ages, in terms of game design, should also be that different ages have different game play. Toddlers have different gameplay from kids, which are different from teens, and so on. Do you remember the teens in TS2? They had some unique aspects to them like the zits and the sneaking out at night. Teens in TS4 are equal to adults, even in appearence, except they can't woohoo.
TS4 was poorly designed, in my opinion, from day one. It's gameplay is focused in YA/A stages, and that was not the (whole) point of the The Sims, which had this sandbox aspect. Everything is made out of goals now. The neighbourhoods are pre-made and allow zero customisation. We have less one life stage, and the teens are almost equal to YA (so this limits gameplay even more).
Everything is limited in this game, even the most basic aspect that made the franchise a masterpiece ten years ago: generational play (culling, argh) and life stages.
So, getting back to the question, do toddlers change anything? I my view, no, they don't; the game is still limited. But I think people count on that because, by addind toddlers, they feel like the game is not as "Fixed" and limited as it appears, and that other features can be done if the players really want them. People want to trust the company, that's why they are relying so heavily on toddlers.
As for preteens... I don't get the point. what could preteens do that teens and children would not be able to? For me, they would be useless and a waste of resources. We really need teens that look like teens, not like adults.
I respectfully disagree. The teens actually do look like teens. Have you been to a high school lately? The teens in Sims 2 actually were more like preteens, in looks and manner. That is why having those little pre teen looking kids driving alone at night, and dating actually looked ridiculous. This is why I would like to have pre teens that basically would be like the Sims 2 teens. I would also enjoy having the tots back.
I don't find the game at all limiting and it is not a "goal driven" as the Sims 3 was. I like all the things that children can now do, such as play instruments, and still have their own unique items. I also understand the need for the so called culling. The game runs for most without issues, and that is very worthwhile. At the end of the day, is doesn't matter how many features or lack of limits a game or program has if it is crashing all the time or generating save errors.
Ok lets see things from another angle. Now as we all know, there where toddlers in TS2 and TS3, however there are some players who dislike TS3 for some reason or another, or maybe a few reasons.
Now lets say you don't like TS3, the lack of toddlers is non existent of course, but you do not like TS4 either, would you really like the game more if it had toddlers. What bout the other things you don't like? Will they disappear upon the release of toddlers?
For some players maybe toddlers are the only thing that is missing, for others, they are minor compared to other 'cut content'.
What do toddlers have anything to do with the other issues the game has?! Most people who want toddlers back are people who still haven't given up on TS4. Some are still playing, but not fully enjoying it, while others (like myself) stopped playing altogether and are waiting for news. Sure, some people have other issues with the game and would prefer other things to be fixed or added first, but what is your point, really? Like I said, people want different things. Just because a certain group of people don't have toddlers on the top of their "what I want to see in TS4" list, does it mean toddlers shouldn't be added? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here....
What would happen if toddlers arrive? The baby would grow to a toddler and you can have time to go through the bonding phase, but then the toddler will grow into a child, into a teen and o on. Would teens be any different had they been toddlers What about adults, they will still go to work, would their careers be any different just because of the presence of toddlers?
Erm, isn't that what happens in all sims games? Or at least on the last two? We watch our sims gradually grow from newborn to toddlers, then child, teenager, young adult, adult and elder. Those are the lifestages we are used to. Newborns growing into children is just a huge gap, so the journey from newborn to elder doesn't feel complete and satisfying to me. Your "logic" could apply to anything if we think about it. I mean, would your teens be any different if they hadn't been children? Would your adults be different if you hadn't played through the teen lifestage? You could say "of course, when they are children they go to school for the first time and when they are teens they get in love for the first time, etc. etc." and I can say "of course toddlers are important, it's when they start talking and walking and doing things on their own. It's their first step in their life." It's up to you as a player to make each lifestage meaningful. Again, different people, different ways to play and approach the game, so let's just leave it at that.
I think he OP's remarks are very interesting, actually. I mean, the toddlers are the thing that people use to complai mostly about the game, but would adding them make a change to everyone who is complaining?
To me, personally: I don't like babies and toddlers, but this is a life simulation game, and it was kind of expected, as TS2 had introduced them. And the point of having ages, in terms of game design, should also be that different ages have different game play. Toddlers have different gameplay from kids, which are different from teens, and so on. Do you remember the teens in TS2? They had some unique aspects to them like the zits and the sneaking out at night. Teens in TS4 are equal to adults, even in appearence, except they can't woohoo.
TS4 was poorly designed, in my opinion, from day one. It's gameplay is focused in YA/A stages, and that was not the (whole) point of the The Sims, which had this sandbox aspect. Everything is made out of goals now. The neighbourhoods are pre-made and allow zero customisation. We have less one life stage, and the teens are almost equal to YA (so this limits gameplay even more).
Everything is limited in this game, even the most basic aspect that made the franchise a masterpiece ten years ago: generational play (culling, argh) and life stages.
So, getting back to the question, do toddlers change anything? I my view, no, they don't; the game is still limited. But I think people count on that because, by addind toddlers, they feel like the game is not as "Fixed" and limited as it appears, and that other features can be done if the players really want them. People want to trust the company, that's why they are relying so heavily on toddlers.
As for preteens... I don't get the point. what could preteens do that teens and children would not be able to? For me, they would be useless and a waste of resources. We really need teens that look like teens, not like adults.
I respectfully disagree. The teens actually do look like teens. Have you been to a high school lately? The teens in Sims 2 actually were more like preteens, in looks and manner. That is why having those little pre teen looking kids driving alone at night, and dating actually looked ridiculous. This is why I would like to have pre teens that basically would be like the Sims 2 teens. I would also enjoy having the tots back.
I don't find the game at all limiting and it is not a "goal driven" as the Sims 3 was. I like all the things that children can now do, such as play instruments, and still have their own unique items. I also understand the need for the so called culling. The game runs for most without issues, and that is very worthwhile. At the end of the day, is doesn't matter how many features or lack of limits a game or program has if it is crashing all the time or generating save errors.
Maybe we disagree on how teens look like... I always thought that the teens in TS2 looked like 15, girls had relatively small breasts and boys could have a little stubble. They weren't fully developed, but they were in the middle road.
As in TS4 they literaly look the same, with the same clothes and all. I literally cannot diferenciate them. I dunno, teens for me don't look like fully developed adults to me.
When I first heard there were no toddlers in TS4 I was surprised but not too bummed, like the OP I found them kind of annoying in previous iterations. The teach to walk/talk/potty interactions grew tiresome quickly and TS2 toddlers constantly playing in the toilet argh! But I have to admit I do actually miss them and I do think the game needs more generational style interactions and objects. Generations was one of my favourite expansion packs from TS3 and I am more of a family style player in that I mostly play legacys. I hope that toddlers are added eventually to TS4 and that we get a generations type EP with family interactions for all age groups. I like realism in my game and I don't think I will ever get over the baby jumping out of the crib to become a child!
I had to double check the poster as am actually surprised you wrote this thread...
I have been in many of a discussion with you and if you still fail to see what toddlers will add to this game for many of us then I'm actually upset you don't seem to have taken in anything that the entire family play thread has said (on which I see you regularly post.
It's not as easy as 'don't like it, don't play it' (as you very well should know) and if you think toddlers really are a minor stage then you (in my opinion) clearly haven't listened to the feedback given over the last however many months by many of us.
Sorry, but this thread has annoyed me, more so that its you that has written it. I feel you should know better or that my impressions of you were totally off base.
I'm actually a little shocked. Lol
--T
ETA: although I do agree - toddlers are the tip of the iceberg in problems this game has but adding hem would be the start, for many, to hopefully liking this game.
If players want toddlers just because they want them then that is understandable but my concern is would they really enhance the game beyond being another life stage.
As you don't play the TS4, and I believe you have said that you never intend to play, I'm surprised you would be concerned about anything that is added to this game. I'm not saying this to be snarky or anything , I am just interested in why you would be concerned about what toddlers would or would not add to a game you don't like.
IMO they definitely would enhance the game, it would allow parents to actually parent. You can easily get away with not parenting the children in this game already.
See, I have a weird feeling that some people who have been asking for toddlers will start complaining about how they're not as great as in previous games, just like what they always do with every other added content in TS4. If only the devs can make the toddlers like how great the CAS and build mode are, then that would be 10/10.
UM YES, I still want toddlers, I still dont see why people dont care Its a lifestage that has been in the sims for all of them ,and I dont see why toddlers cant be added in TS4! I' m fine with not having pre teens, but we've had toddlers.. Like no one wants to see a baby jump out of the crib to a CHILD.
I think he OP's remarks are very interesting, actually. I mean, the toddlers are the thing that people use to complai mostly about the game, but would adding them make a change to everyone who is complaining?
To me, personally: I don't like babies and toddlers, but this is a life simulation game, and it was kind of expected, as TS2 had introduced them. And the point of having ages, in terms of game design, should also be that different ages have different game play. Toddlers have different gameplay from kids, which are different from teens, and so on. Do you remember the teens in TS2? They had some unique aspects to them like the zits and the sneaking out at night. Teens in TS4 are equal to adults, even in appearence, except they can't woohoo.
TS4 was poorly designed, in my opinion, from day one. It's gameplay is focused in YA/A stages, and that was not the (whole) point of the The Sims, which had this sandbox aspect. Everything is made out of goals now. The neighbourhoods are pre-made and allow zero customisation. We have less one life stage, and the teens are almost equal to YA (so this limits gameplay even more).
Everything is limited in this game, even the most basic aspect that made the franchise a masterpiece ten years ago: generational play (culling, argh) and life stages.
So, getting back to the question, do toddlers change anything? I my view, no, they don't; the game is still limited. But I think people count on that because, by addind toddlers, they feel like the game is not as "Fixed" and limited as it appears, and that other features can be done if the players really want them. People want to trust the company, that's why they are relying so heavily on toddlers.
As for preteens... I don't get the point. what could preteens do that teens and children would not be able to? For me, they would be useless and a waste of resources. We really need teens that look like teens, not like adults.
I respectfully disagree. The teens actually do look like teens. Have you been to a high school lately? The teens in Sims 2 actually were more like preteens, in looks and manner. That is why having those little pre teen looking kids driving alone at night, and dating actually looked ridiculous. This is why I would like to have pre teens that basically would be like the Sims 2 teens. I would also enjoy having the tots back.
I don't find the game at all limiting and it is not a "goal driven" as the Sims 3 was. I like all the things that children can now do, such as play instruments, and still have their own unique items. I also understand the need for the so called culling. The game runs for most without issues, and that is very worthwhile. At the end of the day, is doesn't matter how many features or lack of limits a game or program has if it is crashing all the time or generating save errors.
Maybe we disagree on how teens look like... I always thought that the teens in TS2 looked like 15, girls had relatively small breasts and boys could have a little stubble. They weren't fully developed, but they were in the middle road.
As in TS4 they literaly look the same, with the same clothes and all. I literally cannot diferenciate them. I dunno, teens for me don't look like fully developed adults to me.
Well I agree with you it does take some work to make teens look different in Sims 4. They look like older teens though I have been able to adjust their faces when they turn out too old looking, and fix their bodies as well. The game really does a bad job on it's own. I also use the height slider from MTS also. This is why I want the pre teen size that we had in Sims 2. Those kids could be anywhere from 12 to 15 as you mentioned. That is a fun age for me, as it was in Sims 2. If I wanted older teens in Sims 2, I just used the young adult stage. In Sims 4 it is much harder to have the younger teens and that is why I would like a pre teen or young teen age added. So in a way, we are in agreement!
Well... To be honest, I really don't care so much about toddlers. I would be fine with them in my game and all, but I mainly would just skip them to the child life stage after teaching them how to walk, talk, and use the John. Though I don't own The Sims 4. So I shouldn't really say what is and isn't good for the game. Since I don't know much about it other than the Expansion Packs and what some current players have been saying about it. Even though I don't care much for toddlers, I say we should have them in the game. Simply because it adds a little realism to the game. Though if we really want realism, why have our sims go through a "life stage" and then magically move on to the next with sparkles and confetti? Instead, why not just have them slowly but surely grow up? Later throughout your time playing the game, you'll see a difference in your sims. Your teen sims will begin to grow facial hair, develop new interests and hobbies, and their appearance changes depending on what they usually do during their life time. Sometimes you can even see your adults sim's hair slowly turning grey and their worry lines beginning to be more visible. Though that would take a huge amount of work and time on the developer's part.
Anyways, is The Sims 4 truly worth buying? I've been contemplating on it for quite a while now. Due to the no open world, no create a style, return of the loading screens, and the town map looking like something you would see off of a Facebook game, the idea sort of pushed me into the no zone. Though I might be wrong. Maybe The Sims 4 is worth it.
I myself have no intention of stirring things and I do apologise if others thought I was but yes, there are underlying issues that need to be addressed, I mean there is also thee incest bug which comes and goes, that needs to be addressed pronto, unless you want to see toddlers in a relationship with a Grandparent?
I feel like I'm in a time warp or something. Of course there are going to be other issues. That's not anything new. You speak as if we will get toddlers and suddenly realise there's culling... ?? Toddlers are merely one thing on my currently endless list of things I dislike about this game but that doesn't mean that when or if I eventually start to get those issues addressed by EA/Maxis that it won't help the disappointment.
I really, honestly do not see the point of this thread. Nobody ever said toddlers were the only thing wrong or missing.
But I'm with @JoAnne65, my mind is too set when it comes to this. I'm out.
--T
ETA: Text
Ok.
You speak as if we will get toddlers and suddenly realise there's culling... ??
No, I don't. But for those reading (since you are, apparently "out"), here's me playing devil's advocate: If toddlers are added before issues such as culling are fixed, there may be a lot of rage and ragequitting because "the game isn't built well to handle their presence," despite them being added. I think that's sort of the crux of the argument being made, as I interpret it (and as I'm now making it myself) - the crux being that some talk as if Sims 4 getting toddlers is the be-all and end-all of the game being playable for them, but while that may be true for some, the addition itself of toddlers won't make the game into previous titles on its own. It will still be the Sims 4, with whatever features or bugs that people may not like.
The way I see it, the argument is about calling attention to, and talking about, the nuance of the situation - that Sims 4's divergence from other titles is much more complicated than the presence, or lack of, toddlers.
In my experience running the family thread I have yet to meet anyone who thinks toddlers is the be all and end all. After reading and running the 1159 page thread I feel I can attest to that.
What I am seeing is that often these are the 'excuses' as to why they shouldn't address the elephant in the room-its often thrown towards people who identify with family play that 'if you aren't moaning about toddlers then you'll be moaning about something else.' That is where the issue arises in these sorts of threads. Whilst the OP wants to address this issue it has often been used to 'put down' the argument for what other people want since release so it comes with its own history and associated distress. You and the OP may be completely unaware of this of this history and fatigue that comes with that sort of recurring theme from some people to try to invalidate someone else's hopes or expectations for the game.
My point is its immaterial. It is no different asking for toddlers than asking for any other content of the development team. When someone else asks for something they aren't subject to a barrage of 'but if you got that then you be moaning about something else' judgements and comments. Its almost as if there is an attempt to propagate that it is socially unacceptable to ask for toddlers when in reality that is absurd.
It really comes down to each player and in the end it is their business how they feel about features and whether or not a stranger on the internet agrees with them means nothing.
I don't think that's really fair though, to say that asking for toddlers is no different than asking for any other content. The persistence, the intensity of emotions that get involved, none of it is what I'd call "normal." If you've been following the forums a lot, I'm sure you've noticed how often toddlers threads are made and how often they creep into unrelated discussions.
Its almost as if there is an attempt to propagate that it is socially unacceptable to ask for toddlers when in reality that is absurd.
I might take this seriously if the request for toddlers was confined to a few threads, but we both know it's not like that. When a topic permeates unrelated discussions, there's nothing inherently combative about challenging how far-reaching it is, in some way. I feel pretty strongly that at that level, it's fair game to challenge.
The thing you have to realize is that from my perspective, it looks like there are people who attempt to propagate the idea that it's socially unacceptable to NOT be a vehement supporter of toddlers, no matter who or where they are being talked about. The opposite - what you're describing - is not only something I've never seen... it's something that appears to simply be a direct result of how common the topic is. It's talked about so much and so often that it's natural for some people to question why it's being talked about so much and so often. It's not the request itself that is questioned, so much as the priority and fervency of the request, which goes way beyond requests for any other feature.
I do believe there's a gap in fervency between those who really want toddlers and those who maybe don't care a whole lot, and that can create the perception of dismissal. For example, if you and your friends are certain a box weighs 500 pounds, and I come in and parade it around as if it weighs nothing, you're going to think I'm making light of what is a very heavy box. But none of us have actually measured the box objectively because in this instance, the box has no physical properties of weight and can't be given objective attributes.
So the perception of levity and dismissal can easily come forth from the difference in perception alone. In other words, if I were to say, "Toddlers aren't that big of a deal" I'm willing to bet somebody would accuse me of being dismissive of requests for them. Part of the problem with this whole topic is that requests for toddlers have reached the point where it's difficult to distinguish between "individuals who want toddlers to be in Sims 4" and "the guys/girls who keep going on about toddlers endlessly." That is, it's difficult to distinguish between the acts of individuals and the acts of "the group."
It means that if I talk about how common toddler threads are, for example, it's going to come across like I'm generalizing an entire group of people because that's how big the issue is on the forums. Maybe that also contributes to the perception of dismissal, but I don't know any other way to frame it. It would be near impossible to try to talk about the subject without generalizing to some degree.
This, I think, is where the OP's post and some of the people responding here have a disconnect. The OP is generalizing because that is the easiest way to talk about the subject. He is speaking to a group as a whole and asking them questions. Many don't consider themselves part of "the group" in the first place, but their wants associate them with the group, so they feel lumped in and targeted. I think this is where the wisest move is to say, "If this doesn't fit me, I'm just going to ignore it and move on." The trouble is, the generalized nature of it is alluring. "Are you sure about this thing you want? Well of course I 🐸🐸🐸🐸 well am, I've been saying I want it for over a year!"
But I have noticed a theme in threads that talk about toddlers and family play, which is: Putting down the game as a whole. This isn't inherently wrong or something, but perhaps it is where thoughts like the OP's stem from. That maybe for some of those asking for toddlers or better family play, their issues with the game run a lot deeper and maybe it would be good for them to reflect more deeply on that and their future satisfaction, and face the possibility that seeing toddlers or better family play is not even going to make a dent in their issues with the game.
Anyway, I feel I'm getting somewhat meta here and I don't want to take the topic too far from its roots. All of this is really just intended as food for thought, on my end. If I've given people something to think about, then... mission accomplished.
At this point, in my opinion, toddlers will not make this iteration any more enjoyable. I feel that there are way too many problems with TS4 for the little guys and gals to be anything but glitched out, buggy messes.
If they'd been introduced in base game, as they should have been, then I certainly would have been much more pleased by the game. Adding them now with so many other ridiculous problems already in the game, things that they obviously don't feel they should bother fixing, won't make a difference to me.
They have managed to disappoint me so much that I'm simply uninterested in TS4 any more.
However, I do hope that they will be added so that other players can have them around.
I will just entertain myself with TS2, TS3 or Fallout 4.
And people starting to get plumhurt again, some of you really dont check it. The real problem is the toddler player would start to complain again if the the toddlers where changed. And fricking stop disrespecting the OP opinion, everyone has the right to state his opinion. Disrespecting a opinion is egoistic.
And its very difficult to add something that wasnt in the Base game. I mean really, EA should fix the game completely before we get toddlers.
I am really dissapointef
I think he OP's remarks are very interesting, actually. I mean, the toddlers are the thing that people use to complai mostly about the game, but would adding them make a change to everyone who is complaining?
To me, personally: I don't like babies and toddlers, but this is a life simulation game, and it was kind of expected, as TS2 had introduced them. And the point of having ages, in terms of game design, should also be that different ages have different game play. Toddlers have different gameplay from kids, which are different from teens, and so on. Do you remember the teens in TS2? They had some unique aspects to them like the zits and the sneaking out at night. Teens in TS4 are equal to adults, even in appearence, except they can't woohoo.
TS4 was poorly designed, in my opinion, from day one. It's gameplay is focused in YA/A stages, and that was not the (whole) point of the The Sims, which had this sandbox aspect. Everything is made out of goals now. The neighbourhoods are pre-made and allow zero customisation. We have less one life stage, and the teens are almost equal to YA (so this limits gameplay even more).
Everything is limited in this game, even the most basic aspect that made the franchise a masterpiece ten years ago: generational play (culling, argh) and life stages.
So, getting back to the question, do toddlers change anything? I my view, no, they don't; the game is still limited. But I think people count on that because, by addind toddlers, they feel like the game is not as "Fixed" and limited as it appears, and that other features can be done if the players really want them. People want to trust the company, that's why they are relying so heavily on toddlers.
As for preteens... I don't get the point. what could preteens do that teens and children would not be able to? For me, they would be useless and a waste of resources. We really need teens that look like teens, not like adults.
I respectfully disagree. The teens actually do look like teens. Have you been to a high school lately? The teens in Sims 2 actually were more like preteens, in looks and manner. That is why having those little pre teen looking kids driving alone at night, and dating actually looked ridiculous. This is why I would like to have pre teens that basically would be like the Sims 2 teens. I would also enjoy having the tots back.
I don't find the game at all limiting and it is not a "goal driven" as the Sims 3 was. I like all the things that children can now do, such as play instruments, and still have their own unique items. I also understand the need for the so called culling. The game runs for most without issues, and that is very worthwhile. At the end of the day, is doesn't matter how many features or lack of limits a game or program has if it is crashing all the time or generating save errors.
I don't have to go to high school for that, I have two of them here in my house. Last week we were going through holiday pictures from two and a half years ago (when we visited the USA and they were 13 and 16) and this is no joke, this actually really happened, were amazed how much they had changed. My daughter (18 now) really looks kind of mature all of a sudden compared to then and my son back then also was much more of a kid, a boy. And in fact was smaller than me and I'm 1.69 m, not that tall for a woman. He will be a man too in two, three years time so I cherish these years. I'm going to miss my kids (and welcome and love my two young adults).
(I don't quite follow "goal driven" by the way, are there other goals in 3 than in 2 and 4?; this is not toddler related though, don't want to derail the topic)
(I don't quite follow "goal driven" by the way, are there other goals in 3 than in 2 and 4?; this is not toddler related though, don't want to derail the topic)
Sims 3 had a few EPs that were more exploration and goal oriented than pure sandbox. World Adventures, Island Paradise, and Into the Future are the most obvious ones.
I mean, what can you do with toddlers other than teach to walk, talk, potty train and ready books. Ok, they might play with toys, they might be able to play with other toddler and they will make cute pictures but what else?
See, this is the problem right here. People THINK that toddlers don't have much to do because of the past games and they found them so boring. THE PROBLEMis that EA doesn't give them much to do.. only until they add expansion packs. I guess it's because Toddlers "normal" lifespan would be about 5 Sim Days, so they don't have "much time" to do things. But as a family player, I play on the longest span I can with Adjustments. I keep infants at 3 days, toddlers at about 10-15 days because I need time to teach them to walk, talk, potty-train, and for them to skill build with the skills they CAN learn.
They need to add a slider to the age system and allow us to set specific 'days' for each life-stage again like in Sims 3.
Now see, if EA would actually patch them, give them a game pack and a stuff pack, and you know .. Generations Expansion pack.. toddlers would have a lot more things to do. *Should* have a lot more to do.
Don't be silly! Of course, Toddlers can't do anything like you mentioned.. can toddlers get married in real life? Lol, no of course not. I think you're just being a bit ridiculous, so I'm not going to take this thread seriously.
However, I will tell you this. Toddlers do add game-play to Mine or any other family-player's game out there. So, it's going to ADD a lot of stuff for us when we do get toddlers. Teaching them to walk, talk, potty train, skills, peek-a-boo-, story time, feeding them in a high-chair, putting them in a rocking swing, (We need one of those for infants........ sadly.. they're tied to a bassient... EA, please. x_x)... Teaching them nursery rhyme's, being able to play with other toddlers, color, play with blocks, have a favorite toy, stuffed animal, favorite Cartoon Show, favorite family pet, being able to take away toys, bottles, etc from other toddlers. Fighting over toys, etc..
There is lots of things that toddlers can do. The Sims Free Play Is PROOF of that (I know it's from a different developer, but toddlers can have lots of stuff to do on a MOBILE game... PC is so much more expandable, so why not.). EA just needs to take lessons and actually provide us PC Simmers with similar options to allow toddlers a bit more 'freedom'/game-play.
I think it's naive to think that toddlers are limited. Toddlers could have so much potential and things to do, IF Ea would just do it. I have faith in Maxis. So, we'll see.
If toddlers don't return, which is a silly choice.... they could make so much money, if they released toddlers in a patch and then brought out a Stuff Pack and a Game Pack with clothing, toys, skills, interacting objects, hairstyles, accessories, etc for them and released a Generations Pack. Then I don't know.. it's going to hurt my play-style... A LOT.
I enjoy creating BIG families... and would love to see a brand new life-stage of Preteens since they've never been released in the Franchise before; and with toddlers and preteens, it would allow my family play-style to expand and would definitely help me enjoy families a whole lot more.
Comments
Fair points and indeed you are entitled to your opinion and you have the right to defend that.
The main thing I agree with about your points however is not just the fact that babies growing straight to children is lacking, which it very much is but it is the amount of toddler threads going which I can see annoys some Simmers.
Now don't get me wrong, I have always defended family players but at the same time, I wish to see common ground between those who do not care for toddlers, those who are happy with TS4 the way it is, or at least see other things lacking. Sadly when you get these two types of players in one thread, as decent as these players are with good intentions, there is always a debate which is why I think many re sick of the forums as there is always too much opposition.
I actually wish to restore peace in the community, I myself used to be one of the warriors of the forum but slowly I started to have a change of outlook, I am one of a very small few who where part of the original BBS back in 2000 so I remember the good times when there was no wars or dramas between threads so if people think I am contradicting myself when writing threads, I am actually trying to find common ground between players, while trying to promote healthy feedback for the developers which they could put to use in the long term.
As I said, I do support family players but at the same time, I will need to step away and support other players along the way so that I never have to be assigned to one side or the other.
They'll keep adding content anyway, why not add something that would make a significant portion of players happy?
1. New players get the game and realize they are missing. Expect yet another thread about it.
2. People bring up the toddlers as the main point to make it quick, but they are really talking about toddlers + all the content lacking in the game. Taking a whole life stage away is the most visible, in-your-face aspect that is missing. Like someone said: the elephant in the room.
I was with you until I read that the OP has never played TS4 and doesnt intend to.
As TS4 was released, there was a very strong opposition, the devs where overwhelmed by the opposition, even Rachel Framklin herself said that last year, the devs may have brushed this off as 'teething issues' and hope players may warm up later on.
Players feel brushed off and become more agitated, people got banned from the forums, threads closed, moved or deleted to try and tidy things up to keep the main areas more relaxed for new players or those happy with TS4.
Players then feel silenced and an 'us and them' mentality is formed.
The devs feel less welcome in the community as new content is jeered at so the silence continues.
Players now become concerned about future content.
New content is announced, in this case GT via the Gamescom announcement and is met with mixed results. The opposers feel 'they are not listening' while the devs feel the community is too heated and again, the silence continues.
Players continue to feel ignored and the divide in the community remains. Some players have taken positive steps to make contact with the development team to try and restore the balance between constructive critism and valid concerns.
A render featuring a toddler is given as a gift to the CEO's wife leading to an overwhelming level of hype and speculation that becomes false. A very small yet vocal number of players take things to the extremes creating a further distance that had existed previously and also undoing the positive steps some players had made.
The silence continues.
...............
Now this vicious circle may not be acurate, but could well be part of the issue. No one is right or wrong as such but for progression to be made, some degree of change would be needed. At the end of the day this is Sims game we are talking about, no one is forcing anyone to play anything and if the outcome is not what you hoped for then maybe it is time to seek new outcomes elsewhere.
I hope that makes sense.
Peace
I have to give a shout out to you for this one King. It is a really well presented post. For myself, I love Sims 4 as it is, but I will also enjoy the tots if they come. I play the Sims to create stories, and toddlers are not necessary for me as I just do stories that don't include tots, but if they are offered I will buy them. I do not expect them to be free, so I have no issues on that score. As far as the base game goes, the base game is whatever they say it is. I agree that just because toddlers were in two of the others does not make them a base game item.
I am a long time simmer and it doesn't bother me in the least. And they don't look like 10 year old tweens. They look to be about 6 to 8 years old. A good little kid age. I can accept that it might bother you, but all the Sims games are life simulators, to include Sims 1. It simple refers to a game based on ordinary life, working, buying a home, having a family, etc. Rather than slaying dragons, shooting zombies, etc. Now I like the tots well enough and I will buy them if they come. People who think that they will be "patched" in for free are most likely dreaming. They will cost too much to produce to be given away. The base game and all the add ons, will be patched to accept them, but that does not mean that the actual toddlers will have to be added to the base game.
I respectfully disagree. The teens actually do look like teens. Have you been to a high school lately? The teens in Sims 2 actually were more like preteens, in looks and manner. That is why having those little pre teen looking kids driving alone at night, and dating actually looked ridiculous. This is why I would like to have pre teens that basically would be like the Sims 2 teens. I would also enjoy having the tots back.
I don't find the game at all limiting and it is not a "goal driven" as the Sims 3 was. I like all the things that children can now do, such as play instruments, and still have their own unique items. I also understand the need for the so called culling. The game runs for most without issues, and that is very worthwhile. At the end of the day, is doesn't matter how many features or lack of limits a game or program has if it is crashing all the time or generating save errors.
What do toddlers have anything to do with the other issues the game has?! Most people who want toddlers back are people who still haven't given up on TS4. Some are still playing, but not fully enjoying it, while others (like myself) stopped playing altogether and are waiting for news. Sure, some people have other issues with the game and would prefer other things to be fixed or added first, but what is your point, really? Like I said, people want different things. Just because a certain group of people don't have toddlers on the top of their "what I want to see in TS4" list, does it mean toddlers shouldn't be added? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here....
Erm, isn't that what happens in all sims games? Or at least on the last two? We watch our sims gradually grow from newborn to toddlers, then child, teenager, young adult, adult and elder. Those are the lifestages we are used to. Newborns growing into children is just a huge gap, so the journey from newborn to elder doesn't feel complete and satisfying to me. Your "logic" could apply to anything if we think about it. I mean, would your teens be any different if they hadn't been children? Would your adults be different if you hadn't played through the teen lifestage? You could say "of course, when they are children they go to school for the first time and when they are teens they get in love for the first time, etc. etc." and I can say "of course toddlers are important, it's when they start talking and walking and doing things on their own. It's their first step in their life." It's up to you as a player to make each lifestage meaningful. Again, different people, different ways to play and approach the game, so let's just leave it at that.
Maybe we disagree on how teens look like... I always thought that the teens in TS2 looked like 15, girls had relatively small breasts and boys could have a little stubble. They weren't fully developed, but they were in the middle road.
As in TS4 they literaly look the same, with the same clothes and all. I literally cannot diferenciate them. I dunno, teens for me don't look like fully developed adults to me.
As you don't play the TS4, and I believe you have said that you never intend to play, I'm surprised you would be concerned about anything that is added to this game. I'm not saying this to be snarky or anything
IMO they definitely would enhance the game, it would allow parents to actually parent. You can easily get away with not parenting the children in this game already.
Well I agree with you it does take some work to make teens look different in Sims 4. They look like older teens though I have been able to adjust their faces when they turn out too old looking, and fix their bodies as well. The game really does a bad job on it's own. I also use the height slider from MTS also. This is why I want the pre teen size that we had in Sims 2. Those kids could be anywhere from 12 to 15 as you mentioned. That is a fun age for me, as it was in Sims 2. If I wanted older teens in Sims 2, I just used the young adult stage. In Sims 4 it is much harder to have the younger teens and that is why I would like a pre teen or young teen age added. So in a way, we are in agreement!
Anyways, is The Sims 4 truly worth buying? I've been contemplating on it for quite a while now. Due to the no open world, no create a style, return of the loading screens, and the town map looking like something you would see off of a Facebook game, the idea sort of pushed me into the no zone. Though I might be wrong. Maybe The Sims 4 is worth it.
I might take this seriously if the request for toddlers was confined to a few threads, but we both know it's not like that. When a topic permeates unrelated discussions, there's nothing inherently combative about challenging how far-reaching it is, in some way. I feel pretty strongly that at that level, it's fair game to challenge.
The thing you have to realize is that from my perspective, it looks like there are people who attempt to propagate the idea that it's socially unacceptable to NOT be a vehement supporter of toddlers, no matter who or where they are being talked about. The opposite - what you're describing - is not only something I've never seen... it's something that appears to simply be a direct result of how common the topic is. It's talked about so much and so often that it's natural for some people to question why it's being talked about so much and so often. It's not the request itself that is questioned, so much as the priority and fervency of the request, which goes way beyond requests for any other feature.
I do believe there's a gap in fervency between those who really want toddlers and those who maybe don't care a whole lot, and that can create the perception of dismissal. For example, if you and your friends are certain a box weighs 500 pounds, and I come in and parade it around as if it weighs nothing, you're going to think I'm making light of what is a very heavy box. But none of us have actually measured the box objectively because in this instance, the box has no physical properties of weight and can't be given objective attributes.
So the perception of levity and dismissal can easily come forth from the difference in perception alone. In other words, if I were to say, "Toddlers aren't that big of a deal" I'm willing to bet somebody would accuse me of being dismissive of requests for them. Part of the problem with this whole topic is that requests for toddlers have reached the point where it's difficult to distinguish between "individuals who want toddlers to be in Sims 4" and "the guys/girls who keep going on about toddlers endlessly." That is, it's difficult to distinguish between the acts of individuals and the acts of "the group."
It means that if I talk about how common toddler threads are, for example, it's going to come across like I'm generalizing an entire group of people because that's how big the issue is on the forums. Maybe that also contributes to the perception of dismissal, but I don't know any other way to frame it. It would be near impossible to try to talk about the subject without generalizing to some degree.
This, I think, is where the OP's post and some of the people responding here have a disconnect. The OP is generalizing because that is the easiest way to talk about the subject. He is speaking to a group as a whole and asking them questions. Many don't consider themselves part of "the group" in the first place, but their wants associate them with the group, so they feel lumped in and targeted. I think this is where the wisest move is to say, "If this doesn't fit me, I'm just going to ignore it and move on." The trouble is, the generalized nature of it is alluring. "Are you sure about this thing you want? Well of course I 🐸🐸🐸🐸 well am, I've been saying I want it for over a year!"
But I have noticed a theme in threads that talk about toddlers and family play, which is: Putting down the game as a whole. This isn't inherently wrong or something, but perhaps it is where thoughts like the OP's stem from. That maybe for some of those asking for toddlers or better family play, their issues with the game run a lot deeper and maybe it would be good for them to reflect more deeply on that and their future satisfaction, and face the possibility that seeing toddlers or better family play is not even going to make a dent in their issues with the game.
Anyway, I feel I'm getting somewhat meta here and I don't want to take the topic too far from its roots. All of this is really just intended as food for thought, on my end. If I've given people something to think about, then... mission accomplished.
If they'd been introduced in base game, as they should have been, then I certainly would have been much more pleased by the game. Adding them now with so many other ridiculous problems already in the game, things that they obviously don't feel they should bother fixing, won't make a difference to me.
They have managed to disappoint me so much that I'm simply uninterested in TS4 any more.
However, I do hope that they will be added so that other players can have them around.
I will just entertain myself with TS2, TS3 or Fallout 4.
And its very difficult to add something that wasnt in the Base game. I mean really, EA should fix the game completely before we get toddlers.
I am really dissapointef
(I don't quite follow "goal driven" by the way, are there other goals in 3 than in 2 and 4?; this is not toddler related though, don't want to derail the topic)
Sims 3 had a few EPs that were more exploration and goal oriented than pure sandbox. World Adventures, Island Paradise, and Into the Future are the most obvious ones.
See, this is the problem right here. People THINK that toddlers don't have much to do because of the past games and they found them so boring. THE PROBLEM is that EA doesn't give them much to do.. only until they add expansion packs. I guess it's because Toddlers "normal" lifespan would be about 5 Sim Days, so they don't have "much time" to do things. But as a family player, I play on the longest span I can with Adjustments. I keep infants at 3 days, toddlers at about 10-15 days because I need time to teach them to walk, talk, potty-train, and for them to skill build with the skills they CAN learn.
They need to add a slider to the age system and allow us to set specific 'days' for each life-stage again like in Sims 3.
Now see, if EA would actually patch them, give them a game pack and a stuff pack, and you know .. Generations Expansion pack.. toddlers would have a lot more things to do. *Should* have a lot more to do.
Don't be silly! Of course, Toddlers can't do anything like you mentioned.. can toddlers get married in real life? Lol, no of course not. I think you're just being a bit ridiculous, so I'm not going to take this thread seriously.
However, I will tell you this. Toddlers do add game-play to Mine or any other family-player's game out there. So, it's going to ADD a lot of stuff for us when we do get toddlers. Teaching them to walk, talk, potty train, skills, peek-a-boo-, story time, feeding them in a high-chair, putting them in a rocking swing, (We need one of those for infants........ sadly.. they're tied to a bassient... EA, please. x_x)... Teaching them nursery rhyme's, being able to play with other toddlers, color, play with blocks, have a favorite toy, stuffed animal, favorite Cartoon Show, favorite family pet, being able to take away toys, bottles, etc from other toddlers. Fighting over toys, etc..
There is lots of things that toddlers can do. The Sims Free Play Is PROOF of that (I know it's from a different developer, but toddlers can have lots of stuff to do on a MOBILE game... PC is so much more expandable, so why not.). EA just needs to take lessons and actually provide us PC Simmers with similar options to allow toddlers a bit more 'freedom'/game-play.
I think it's naive to think that toddlers are limited. Toddlers could have so much potential and things to do, IF Ea would just do it.
If toddlers don't return, which is a silly choice.... they could make so much money, if they released toddlers in a patch and then brought out a Stuff Pack and a Game Pack with clothing, toys, skills, interacting objects, hairstyles, accessories, etc for them and released a Generations Pack. Then I don't know.. it's going to hurt my play-style... A LOT.
I enjoy creating BIG families... and would love to see a brand new life-stage of Preteens since they've never been released in the Franchise before; and with toddlers and preteens, it would allow my family play-style to expand and would definitely help me enjoy families a whole lot more.