Probably discussed already but another update on my current status...
I have two Origin accounts (can't remember why now) with EPs over the two... I cannot access games installed under one screen name on the other. For instance, I have WA installed via disc and was playing with Pets under the first screen name. I'm trying to also play IP and ST and cannot because those games are installed under the other screen name.
Probably discussed already but another update on my current status...
I have two Origin accounts (can't remember why now) with EPs over the two... I cannot access games installed under one screen name on the other. For instance, I have WA installed via disc and was playing with Pets under the first screen name. I'm trying to also play IP and ST and cannot because those games are installed under the other screen name.
Needless to say I am not happy.
Have you tried Origin support to have those two accounts merged? I think it would be an easy solution.
My Studio
My Traits: Socially Awkward / Artistic / Family Oriented / Hopelessly Romantic / Absent Minded
Academic Trait: Adventurous
Social Group Trait (Should I ever become "Nerd" enough): Computer Whiz ______
“Instead of putting players in the role of Luke Skywalker, or Frodo Baggins, I'd rather put them in the role of George Lucas.” Will Wright
"Anything that can go wrong will go wrong." Cpt. Edward A. Murphy Jr, USAF
> @February11 said: > JayGsmith08 wrote: » > > I turned off automatic updates and went into my Sims 4 but it would not allow me to do anything like download or update Sims 4 without updating Sims 3 so I am confused. How do I get anything for Sims 4 if its not allowing me to unless I update 3? It says I have a critical update > @crinrict said: > > It will influence Sims 4 in that respect that you will also need to trigger the update yourself. > > > > It's recommended anyways so you won't have a problem. If you don't want the update, make sure automatic updates are turned off. You'll get the option to update Sims 4 through Origin by just clicking on a link. > > > > > > I haven't encountered that problem yet. Only thing I would do if it wants to do that, allow it to start updating TS3 but then cancel it as soon as it starts. > Mine tried updating a couple of times and I did that before I unchecked everything. I've not tried updating TS4 since then, but will have to before Get Together comes out. Thanks for the warning though. Hope this works for you. > > I might look into that right now .... > > Okay, all went fine for me. I opened Origin and it wanted to update - I let it. I have Origin set to automatically update, but not the other two. > I clicked on TS4 in my games and I clicked update - It's updating now. > There is a notice on my TS3 game saying update available, but it doesn't try to update on it's own, so I ignore it. > Have you set TS3/4 NOT to automatically update in Origin, and turned off automatic update on your TS3 launcher? > > EDIT - And now laptop 2 is doing the same thing - and successful.
That's awesome news. I never tried it again and then had problems with my internet. I went onto Twitter and @crinrict say it was possible before but since we have tow more Sims 3 patches it may have changed. If that is the case I will just stay where I'm at but that also means I will not be able to purchase anything else for Sims 4. I will try what you have said once I get my internet back up and running. I don't like anything that would make me have to use the internet for this very reason in order to use or play it.
> @ZeeGee said: > Yeah, I lied, I'm back...and I still want Uni. :) Thanks @mothersuperior2 for being persistent in hunting down a solution and notifying me there was one! :* > > I followed the current directions and uninstalled base game, reinstalled with my disc (had mega problems with the fullbuildset1.package problem, which I finally found a solution for on crinrict's blog (thank you)), applied the super patch, and everything is working again except store content. My store content will not load. And trying to install from my store content backup doesn't work either. I downloaded from the store and installed something and that worked so I will need to redownload all my store content. > > Prior to this update I had two base games in my Origin folder, the original Origin download and the pre-2012 disc version I bought later so I could boot without launcher. Now the disc version does not show in my games. When I first got my disc I noticed there were subtle changes in the game, library was a little different, the words in the notifications were a little different, which is why I was able to tell that my game is back to being like the original Origin download game. My store content is the disc version so maybe that is why it's not working. On opening the launcher after new installation there was a launcher update that I freaked out and cancelled cause it was from Origin, then allowed to update because I could always do this over again. This did not install new update, I'm still on 1.67. But maybe that's what changed everything back to the Origin download version? > > Don't know, but I wanted to put this out there for anyone who is having the same problem. And also for all you disc users who may have to reinstall some day. You may need to somehow back up the Origin download version of the store content if that's possible. > > ETA: @Karritz I hear you're the one I need to thank for the roll back solution, so thank you, thank you and thank you!
I'm trying to understand. If you have the pre game of Sims 3 what happens if you haven't upgraded and still on 1.67? I don't have it now but plan on purchasing it. I have the newer version base game and seasons. If I get the older version how will I still be able to use all of the digital copies of Sp and ep's that I originally got from Origin? If this makes sens.
> @crinrict said: > It will influence Sims 4 in that respect that you will also need to trigger the update yourself. > > It's recommended anyways so you won't have a problem. If you don't want the update, make sure automatic updates are turned off. You'll get the option to update Sims 4 through Origin by just clicking on a link.
Thank you, I'm sorry for getting back so late. I contacted you via twitter and you said now that they have had 2 more updates for Sims 3 this may not be an option anymore. I recently don't have the internet but will be getting it back soon.
Prior the the latest version of Patch 1.69 you could download the Expansion and Stuff Packs from Origin and avoid having to patch to patch 1.69.
Unfortunately for us, they fixed that loophole and now you can't download your download versions of any of the Sims 3 expansions or stuff packs spearately.
They are now all bundled together with the base game that comes prepatched to 1.69 regardless of when you bought your base game.
If you have the installer files for the digital downloads then you might be able to do it the old way. But you will have them only if you checked the box to Keep Installer files after they are installed.
AND if you haven't downloaded anything since the latest patch as that patch rebuilt your game files in Program Files (x86) folder. I don't know if it deleted the installers or not (if installers were present).
> @happygurl said: > This patch was a totally unnecessary disaster. Why this was needed, I have no idea. I had the game the way I wanted it, with all the eps, sps, cc, and mods that I wanted. If I didn't want to play with certain eps I'd uninstall them. I've gotten by without having to get this ridiculous and ludicrous update, but should I ever have to reinstall, it will be forced on me. The problems that this has caused some people (terrible lag etc) gives me nightmares.
I totally agree. It really makes no sense and this should have been optional not tied to all updates. I am happy so far that I haven't did the update and almost happy that I temporally have the internet but I plan on getting my internet again. I want them to stop forcing the update for those who are perfectly fine without it. I have purchased most of all of the Sims 3 series that I wanted and purchased most of the Sims 4 game. I need this to be my choice how I want to play my game. The game was fine with all of its quirks thanks to the modding community.
for some reason since this new update on origin, I cannot send gifts once again
I can't even play my game because it crashes just before load completion/opening into the world! I am so fed up it ain't funny! All mine are on disc except for ITF, so I have no way to escape that damnedable 1.69 because I have to download ITF to complete my installs
I own every basegame, EP, GP, SP and kits for all sims, ie.., sims 1, 2, 3 and 4
I am a sims 3 Store Owner Thanks to all my Amazing friends here, and I do own all store stuff from sims 2 as well!
@TnT_Terry -You'll need to shop for ITTF on Amazon on disk to replace the digital copy so you can get back to the 167 patch which is my patch level.I'll be replacing a few of my dameged disks and getting a spare ITTF disk.
@igazor or anyone, I'm begging of anyone. How do I get this stupid update off my system? I'm in tears now...and hearing the NRaas won't support the update, I cannot say how upset I am. It was a stupid, stupid mistake. I just want it gone and go back to 1.67. Let me super patch. I mean I just get my game to working perfectly and EA has to go and throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing again and make things for the worse.
Do you have the superpatch .exe backed up somewhere?
If I were you I'd try uninstalling Sims 3 base game and then clean registry and install base game again and patch with the super patcher. And download and store the superpatch now while it is still available.
I don't KNOW if this will fix the problem but I don't know of what else you could do.
Unistalling Origin may work but you will probably end up with the same patch level again.
@igazor or anyone, I'm begging of anyone. How do I get this stupid update off my system? I'm in tears now...and hearing the NRaas won't support the update, I cannot say how upset I am. It was a stupid, stupid mistake. I just want it gone and go back to 1.67. Let me super patch. I mean I just get my game to working perfectly and EA has to go and throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing again and make things for the worse.
Do you have the superpatch .exe backed up somewhere?
If I were you I'd try uninstalling Sims 3 base game and then clean registry and install base game again and patch with the super patcher. And download and store the superpatch now while it is still available.
I don't KNOW if this will fix the problem but I don't know of what else you could do.
Unistalling Origin may work but you will probably end up with the same patch level again.
@igazor or anyone, I'm begging of anyone. How do I get this stupid update off my system? I'm in tears now...and hearing the NRaas won't support the update, I cannot say how upset I am. It was a stupid, stupid mistake. I just want it gone and go back to 1.67. Let me super patch. I mean I just get my game to working perfectly and EA has to go and throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing again and make things for the worse.
Do you have the superpatch .exe backed up somewhere?
If I were you I'd try uninstalling Sims 3 base game and then clean registry and install base game again and patch with the super patcher. And download and store the superpatch now while it is still available.
I don't KNOW if this will fix the problem but I don't know of what else you could do.
Unistalling Origin may work but you will probably end up with the same patch level again.
I have used crins patch link a few times myself . It is linked directly to ea not a copy that crin loaded to her web
The one Karritz posted is from here. I've now downloaded them both and they are both the same, and it now had (1) after the newest one today, so I'm assuming if there was anything different, the (1) wouldn't be beside it, it would be just there as another download - wouldn't it?
@igazor or anyone, I'm begging of anyone. How do I get this stupid update off my system? I'm in tears now...and hearing the NRaas won't support the update, I cannot say how upset I am. It was a stupid, stupid mistake. I just want it gone and go back to 1.67. Let me super patch. I mean I just get my game to working perfectly and EA has to go and throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing again and make things for the worse.
Do you have the superpatch .exe backed up somewhere?
If I were you I'd try uninstalling Sims 3 base game and then clean registry and install base game again and patch with the super patcher. And download and store the superpatch now while it is still available.
I don't KNOW if this will fix the problem but I don't know of what else you could do.
Unistalling Origin may work but you will probably end up with the same patch level again.
I have used crins patch link a few times myself . It is linked directly to ea not a copy that crin loaded to her web
The one Karritz posted is from here. I've now downloaded them both and they are both the same, and it now had (1) after the newest one today, so I'm assuming if there was anything different, the (1) wouldn't be beside it, it would be just there as another download - wouldn't it?
The patch posted in here and the one on crin's blog are the same patch from EA so it does not matter which one you use since they are both the same patch
@igazor or anyone, I'm begging of anyone. How do I get this stupid update off my system? I'm in tears now...and hearing the NRaas won't support the update, I cannot say how upset I am. It was a stupid, stupid mistake. I just want it gone and go back to 1.67. Let me super patch. I mean I just get my game to working perfectly and EA has to go and throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing again and make things for the worse.
Do you have the superpatch .exe backed up somewhere?
If I were you I'd try uninstalling Sims 3 base game and then clean registry and install base game again and patch with the super patcher. And download and store the superpatch now while it is still available.
I don't KNOW if this will fix the problem but I don't know of what else you could do.
Unistalling Origin may work but you will probably end up with the same patch level again.
I have used crins patch link a few times myself . It is linked directly to ea not a copy that crin loaded to her web
The one Karritz posted is from here. I've now downloaded them both and they are both the same, and it now had (1) after the newest one today, so I'm assuming if there was anything different, the (1) wouldn't be beside it, it would be just there as another download - wouldn't it?
The patch posted in here and the one on crin's blog are the same patch from EA so it does not matter which one you use since they are both the same patch
The one Karritz posted is from here. I've now downloaded them both and they are both the same, and it now had (1) after the newest one today, so I'm assuming if there was anything different, the (1) wouldn't be beside it, it would be just there as another download - wouldn't it?
FYI the (1) just means that you have downloaded a file with the same name as a file already existing in the same folder. Windows appends the (1) ( or (2), (3), etc) to avoid overwriting the original file.
Remember that problem the game had with the crash to desktop no error being caused by the launcher... guess what its back. This is why i cringe when they come up with stuff.
I haven't installed the latest update after everything that happened last time, but I have noticed while playing in my game I can not get my teens pregnant. My main Sim already has married and has four beautiul children that are now teens. One set of twins was her last OOPSIE and she hasn't requested to have another baby since lol. But her kids can be a bit rowdy and do have major moodswings all the time. No one helps her clean and things can get hectic. I know what to take my story in a new direction with one of the boys having a baby, I want them to have it so I don't have to take care of it lol. Cause I don't want anymore sims in my house right now so my girl is safe, but for one sim it said she can't risky woohoo because she already has too many sims living in her household and my other then other Sims it say progression denied. Why? is there some other setting i need to tweak cause I already have it set to allow them to woohoo and get pregnant. They can wohoo but not risky.
I am also mad because I started in AP and wanted a bigger house so we moved to Twinbrook. Super boring and small and the town filled up quickly and people were constantly having new babies. Lol. I would click on a house and there are like 8 portraits. Anyways, we then moved to Sunset Valley because my Sims kids are older now and can enjoy festivals cause it is boring without them and found out SV doesn't have fair grounds either. I am thinking of moving again to BP but I think it's too small for a family like us. Unless I move us and split us up in our own places. Also SV has no teens right now so it's hard to make friends. Made some on the first day of the move who all aged up to adults shortly after. Had my teen girl ask one to Prom who became an adult who for some reason still attended prom with her and they because a couple but because she is still a teen it says they are BF's lol but "partners" and he sends her gifts and love letters but she can't do anything romantic with him.
If this is the wrong place for this let me know and i Will copy and paste it in the right area, but for some reason I couldn't see the option to create a topic.
My apologies I wasn't aware this couldn't be discussed here and I can't see how to edit my post not even the one i just posted. If a mod could just delete the post....
I updated to Windows10 eight months ago and had no problem playing Sims3. After the last Origin update I can no longer even get the launcher to open the game. The tech at Origin told me that Sims3 is not compatible with 10 and I will not be able to play offline. I tried to tell him that I had been able to play just fine for months. He told me I would have to go back to 7, 8, or 8.1 to play offline and I can no longer play through Origin. He offered me a 15% discount on Sims4. Sounds like bait and switch to me. I've been playing Sims since the first Sims1 came out. I'm done.
I updated to Windows10 eight months ago and had no problem playing Sims3. After the last Origin update I can no longer even get the launcher to open the game. The tech at Origin told me that Sims3 is not compatible with 10 and I will not be able to play offline. I tried to tell him that I had been able to play just fine for months. He told me I would have to go back to 7, 8, or 8.1 to play offline and I can no longer play through Origin. He offered me a 15% discount on Sims4. Sounds like bait and switch to me. I've been playing Sims since the first Sims1 came out. I'm done.
The update makes people have to use Origin to bring up the launcher. Once someone updates to the 1.69 patch, they are forced to use Origin to start their game with. So try going through Origin as that will bring up the launcher that way instead of trying to bring the launcher up from your screen. Hope this helps as I don't have the new patch and will try my best to stay away from it as long as possible.
I updated to Windows10 eight months ago and had no problem playing Sims3. After the last Origin update I can no longer even get the launcher to open the game. The tech at Origin told me that Sims3 is not compatible with 10 and I will not be able to play offline. I tried to tell him that I had been able to play just fine for months. He told me I would have to go back to 7, 8, or 8.1 to play offline and I can no longer play through Origin. He offered me a 15% discount on Sims4. Sounds like bait and switch to me. I've been playing Sims since the first Sims1 came out. I'm done.
I am sorry that you were told that by Origin support, but they were not correct. Some players have had some issues with a couple of things on Win10, but as I said on your other post the incompatibility thing is generally not true.
Okay, Island Paradise is on disk, and I have an original sims 3 (era 2009) is there a way for me to download the patch, and my expansions then uninstall the base game , reinstall to get back to 1.6.7 and then play off of my island paradise disk?
I haven't been able to get into the EA help chat for MONTHS it never works. I'm locked out of my games because I REFUSE to get this stupid patch.
it's not a patch, a patch FIXES things this breaks them beyond play-ability.
Comments
I have two Origin accounts (can't remember why now) with EPs over the two... I cannot access games installed under one screen name on the other. For instance, I have WA installed via disc and was playing with Pets under the first screen name. I'm trying to also play IP and ST and cannot because those games are installed under the other screen name.
Needless to say I am not happy.
Have you tried Origin support to have those two accounts merged? I think it would be an easy solution.
My Traits: Socially Awkward / Artistic / Family Oriented / Hopelessly Romantic / Absent Minded
Academic Trait: Adventurous
Social Group Trait (Should I ever become "Nerd" enough): Computer Whiz
______
“Instead of putting players in the role of Luke Skywalker, or Frodo Baggins, I'd rather put them in the role of George Lucas.” Will Wright
"Anything that can go wrong will go wrong." Cpt. Edward A. Murphy Jr, USAF
> JayGsmith08 wrote: »
>
> I turned off automatic updates and went into my Sims 4 but it would not allow me to do anything like download or update Sims 4 without updating Sims 3 so I am confused. How do I get anything for Sims 4 if its not allowing me to unless I update 3? It says I have a critical update > @crinrict said:
> > It will influence Sims 4 in that respect that you will also need to trigger the update yourself.
> >
> > It's recommended anyways so you won't have a problem. If you don't want the update, make sure automatic updates are turned off. You'll get the option to update Sims 4 through Origin by just clicking on a link.
>
>
>
>
>
> I haven't encountered that problem yet. Only thing I would do if it wants to do that, allow it to start updating TS3 but then cancel it as soon as it starts.
> Mine tried updating a couple of times and I did that before I unchecked everything. I've not tried updating TS4 since then, but will have to before Get Together comes out. Thanks for the warning though. Hope this works for you.
>
> I might look into that right now ....
>
> Okay, all went fine for me. I opened Origin and it wanted to update - I let it. I have Origin set to automatically update, but not the other two.
> I clicked on TS4 in my games and I clicked update - It's updating now.
> There is a notice on my TS3 game saying update available, but it doesn't try to update on it's own, so I ignore it.
> Have you set TS3/4 NOT to automatically update in Origin, and turned off automatic update on your TS3 launcher?
>
> EDIT - And now laptop 2 is doing the same thing - and successful.
That's awesome news. I never tried it again and then had problems with my internet. I went onto Twitter and @crinrict say it was possible before but since we have tow more Sims 3 patches it may have changed. If that is the case I will just stay where I'm at but that also means I will not be able to purchase anything else for Sims 4. I will try what you have said once I get my internet back up and running. I don't like anything that would make me have to use the internet for this very reason in order to use or play it.
> Yeah, I lied, I'm back...and I still want Uni. :) Thanks @mothersuperior2 for being persistent in hunting down a solution and notifying me there was one! :*
>
> I followed the current directions and uninstalled base game, reinstalled with my disc (had mega problems with the fullbuildset1.package problem, which I finally found a solution for on crinrict's blog (thank you)), applied the super patch, and everything is working again except store content. My store content will not load. And trying to install from my store content backup doesn't work either. I downloaded from the store and installed something and that worked so I will need to redownload all my store content.
>
> Prior to this update I had two base games in my Origin folder, the original Origin download and the pre-2012 disc version I bought later so I could boot without launcher. Now the disc version does not show in my games. When I first got my disc I noticed there were subtle changes in the game, library was a little different, the words in the notifications were a little different, which is why I was able to tell that my game is back to being like the original Origin download game. My store content is the disc version so maybe that is why it's not working. On opening the launcher after new installation there was a launcher update that I freaked out and cancelled cause it was from Origin, then allowed to update because I could always do this over again. This did not install new update, I'm still on 1.67. But maybe that's what changed everything back to the Origin download version?
>
> Don't know, but I wanted to put this out there for anyone who is having the same problem. And also for all you disc users who may have to reinstall some day. You may need to somehow back up the Origin download version of the store content if that's possible.
>
> ETA: @Karritz I hear you're the one I need to thank for the roll back solution, so thank you, thank you and thank you!
I'm trying to understand. If you have the pre game of Sims 3 what happens if you haven't upgraded and still on 1.67? I don't have it now but plan on purchasing it. I have the newer version base game and seasons. If I get the older version how will I still be able to use all of the digital copies of Sp and ep's that I originally got from Origin? If this makes sens.
> It will influence Sims 4 in that respect that you will also need to trigger the update yourself.
>
> It's recommended anyways so you won't have a problem. If you don't want the update, make sure automatic updates are turned off. You'll get the option to update Sims 4 through Origin by just clicking on a link.
Thank you, I'm sorry for getting back so late. I contacted you via twitter and you said now that they have had 2 more updates for Sims 3 this may not be an option anymore. I recently don't have the internet but will be getting it back soon.
Unfortunately for us, they fixed that loophole and now you can't download your download versions of any of the Sims 3 expansions or stuff packs spearately.
They are now all bundled together with the base game that comes prepatched to 1.69 regardless of when you bought your base game.
If you have the installer files for the digital downloads then you might be able to do it the old way. But you will have them only if you checked the box to Keep Installer files after they are installed.
AND if you haven't downloaded anything since the latest patch as that patch rebuilt your game files in Program Files (x86) folder. I don't know if it deleted the installers or not (if installers were present).
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuW44b3uCMtCSaq4gwC8EZg
> This patch was a totally unnecessary disaster. Why this was needed, I have no idea. I had the game the way I wanted it, with all the eps, sps, cc, and mods that I wanted. If I didn't want to play with certain eps I'd uninstall them. I've gotten by without having to get this ridiculous and ludicrous update, but should I ever have to reinstall, it will be forced on me. The problems that this has caused some people (terrible lag etc) gives me nightmares.
I totally agree. It really makes no sense and this should have been optional not tied to all updates. I am happy so far that I haven't did the update and almost happy that I temporally have the internet but I plan on getting my internet again. I want them to stop forcing the update for those who are perfectly fine without it. I have purchased most of all of the Sims 3 series that I wanted and purchased most of the Sims 4 game. I need this to be my choice how I want to play my game. The game was fine with all of its quirks thanks to the modding community.
I can't even play my game because it crashes just before load completion/opening into the world! I am so fed up it ain't funny! All mine are on disc except for ITF, so I have no way to escape that damnedable 1.69 because I have to download ITF to complete my installs
I am a sims 3 Store Owner Thanks to all my Amazing friends here, and I do own all store stuff from sims 2 as well!
@Karritz Just confirming this patch is the same as @crinrict - http://sims3.crinrict.com/en/2014/01/patch-1-67.html
I'm sure it is, I'm just getting nervous with having to install everything again on my new laptop which hasn't even arrived yet!
I have used crins patch link a few times myself . It is linked directly to ea not a copy that crin loaded to her web
The one Karritz posted is from here. I've now downloaded them both and they are both the same, and it now had (1) after the newest one today, so I'm assuming if there was anything different, the (1) wouldn't be beside it, it would be just there as another download - wouldn't it?
The patch posted in here and the one on crin's blog are the same patch from EA so it does not matter which one you use since they are both the same patch
Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to hear.
FYI the (1) just means that you have downloaded a file with the same name as a file already existing in the same folder. Windows appends the (1) ( or (2), (3), etc) to avoid overwriting the original file.
I am also mad because I started in AP and wanted a bigger house so we moved to Twinbrook. Super boring and small and the town filled up quickly and people were constantly having new babies. Lol. I would click on a house and there are like 8 portraits. Anyways, we then moved to Sunset Valley because my Sims kids are older now and can enjoy festivals cause it is boring without them and found out SV doesn't have fair grounds either. I am thinking of moving again to BP but I think it's too small for a family like us. Unless I move us and split us up in our own places. Also SV has no teens right now so it's hard to make friends. Made some on the first day of the move who all aged up to adults shortly after. Had my teen girl ask one to Prom who became an adult who for some reason still attended prom with her and they because a couple but because she is still a teen it says they are BF's lol but "partners" and he sends her gifts and love letters but she can't do anything romantic with him.
The update makes people have to use Origin to bring up the launcher. Once someone updates to the 1.69 patch, they are forced to use Origin to start their game with. So try going through Origin as that will bring up the launcher that way instead of trying to bring the launcher up from your screen. Hope this helps as I don't have the new patch and will try my best to stay away from it as long as possible.
http://store.thesims3.com/myWishlist.html?persona=lisasc360
My stories on this site:
https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/991317/my-sims-stories/p1?new=1
I am sorry that you were told that by Origin support, but they were not correct. Some players have had some issues with a couple of things on Win10, but as I said on your other post the incompatibility thing is generally not true.
NRaas has moved!
Our new site is at http://nraas.net
I haven't been able to get into the EA help chat for MONTHS it never works. I'm locked out of my games because I REFUSE to get this stupid patch.
it's not a patch, a patch FIXES things this breaks them beyond play-ability.