My point is that no matter how good a Sims open world development is, if it excludes rotational play, I will not enjoy the game and I will not support it. So I would like them to seriously consider never eliminating this play style again because I would like to continue to play it. My opinion is not going to change.
That's not true. TS3 open world allows for rotational play with the NRAAS Story Progression mod. There are a whole bunch of settings that you can set to make sure it doesn't do anything you don't want it to when you switch active mode to another sim. Your sims won't break up their current relationships, change jobs or work on new skills, won't move to another house, etc. if you don't want them to, until you decide yourself. It is extensive (which is good for rotational players because it gives you a great degree of control), but @Igazor and quite a few other TS3 simmers know and can help you with that as these are all rotational players on TS3. All you need to do is ask.
So it IS possible to play TS3 rotationally and we have TS3 rotational players that can prove that.
I’m going to jump in here and kind of say this post isn’t the least bit helpful or constructive to the convo happening. Saying something is totally possible shouldn’t come with the caveat that you have to install 3rd party mods to make it possible.
I do agree but for some if EA/Maxis will not do it then why not an mod. Even though I do not use mods I do say thank goodness for some of them as they are useful until EA/Maxis ypdates the game and then problems start up. I do not care for core mods for I hate uninstalling and reinstalling.
I normally don't use mods that change gameplay in a way that isn't already there. I'm not against modding any of these games, I use a few, but I feel though TS4 is supposed to be very friendly to mods it's not. Having to update a game monthly and wait on mod updates has literally been a pain in the rear, and how anyone can see that as mod friendly is beyond me. Live service is rather annoying in my opinion, and a dread and if something isn't broke in game it will be next month etc.
I totally get that too. The frustration of updating every single mod for Sims 4 on even a quarterly basis is a lot of upkeep. Plus, they keep rebuilding the engine so that it thoroughly breaks everything and then there's the waiting period for the modders to update. It gets tiring.
I also agree with @drake_mccarty , MC Command is an amazing mod for Sims 4 as are the mods from Lil Ms Sam and the "Personality Please" mod.
Okay, trying not to digress into mod talk because it's off topic and I'll be here all day, lol.
I could be wrong but I think the point is that if modders can pull of reintroducing and/or improving certain features, why can't the actual creators of the game do so as well. It's possible to do but they didn't do it.
That's one of my biggest issues with The Sims games as they go on. I don't understand why we can't get straight out improvement instead of improve this aspect over here, forget about that aspect over there. The groundwork is there for every new iteration, yet we can't get the good, new, and improved in one game. Imagine if they implemented the things that made rotational play good for the past 4 iterations all in the next one plus new things to aid rotational play.
Also, this is why I wonder about just how well things will go when they're just 64 bit. I've read discussions in the past about 64 bit but it was players who wanted Sims 3 64 bit and the game was already over with. Sims 4 is still active though so I'm curious how much 64 bit would improve Sims 4. But I'm less concerned about the technicality and more about their mentality. The game should run smoother which is great but who's to say anything else will change in regards to what they do? Things have clearly been possible before because modders have pulled them off, but who's to say the devs will do it just because it is?
I could also be wrong, but my impression is that modders have more time to devote to developing their mod, whereas the devs are under a strict budget timewise.
I don't know how much free time modders have but I do know they fix what EA and Maxis don't for free. It comes down to resources and resources originally went into an online Sims game that majority of the players wouldn't want instead of investing in an offline sandbox game that could've still had this CAS, a better mix with emotions and personalities and more that could've been inspired from player feedback and previous games.
They could've at least invested in fixing their product, which maybe they'll do if the last survey's questions count for anything. But there's a history of having to find workaround or needing mods to fix things which shouldn't be the case.
My point is that no matter how good a Sims open world development is, if it excludes rotational play, I will not enjoy the game and I will not support it. So I would like them to seriously consider never eliminating this play style again because I would like to continue to play it. My opinion is not going to change.
That's not true. TS3 open world allows for rotational play with the NRAAS Story Progression mod. There are a whole bunch of settings that you can set to make sure it doesn't do anything you don't want it to when you switch active mode to another sim. Your sims won't break up their current relationships, change jobs or work on new skills, won't move to another house, etc. if you don't want them to, until you decide yourself. It is extensive (which is good for rotational players because it gives you a great degree of control), but @Igazor and quite a few other TS3 simmers know and can help you with that as these are all rotational players on TS3. All you need to do is ask.
So it IS possible to play TS3 rotationally and we have TS3 rotational players that can prove that.
I’m going to jump in here and kind of say this post isn’t the least bit helpful or constructive to the convo happening. Saying something is totally possible shouldn’t come with the caveat that you have to install 3rd party mods to make it possible.
I do agree but for some if EA/Maxis will not do it then why not an mod. Even though I do not use mods I do say thank goodness for some of them as they are useful until EA/Maxis ypdates the game and then problems start up. I do not care for core mods for I hate uninstalling and reinstalling.
I normally don't use mods that change gameplay in a way that isn't already there. I'm not against modding any of these games, I use a few, but I feel though TS4 is supposed to be very friendly to mods it's not. Having to update a game monthly and wait on mod updates has literally been a pain in the rear, and how anyone can see that as mod friendly is beyond me. Live service is rather annoying in my opinion, and a dread and if something isn't broke in game it will be next month etc.
I totally get that too. The frustration of updating every single mod for Sims 4 on even a quarterly basis is a lot of upkeep. Plus, they keep rebuilding the engine so that it thoroughly breaks everything and then there's the waiting period for the modders to update. It gets tiring.
I also agree with @drake_mccarty , MC Command is an amazing mod for Sims 4 as are the mods from Lil Ms Sam and the "Personality Please" mod.
Okay, trying not to digress into mod talk because it's off topic and I'll be here all day, lol.
Absolutely! Not to stray into mod talk either, but Sims 4 has a WIDE variety of mods. If maxis did one thing right early on with 4 it was providing a framework for mods which has led to a lot of people taking advantage of it and making some really cool stuff. Most of the big mods for Sims 3 came from the same source. Ok I’m done
There are a lot of opinions in here, I hope everyone feels they have been able to express theirs without feeling ganged up on or anything like that. A lot of us have been playing The Sims since 2001 or before (games like Sim Ant, lol) and others started with TS4. What I think we all want is for developers to understand we probably al expect the next game to have weather, pets, family units, ways to relate Sims to each other in CAS like how many ways we could do that in TS3 (we can't even keep an uncle in TS2 once that child becomes an adult and moves out they are no longer kin and can date....) and in TS4 if a mom or dad dies their child is no longer kin to the aunt or uncle or cousins in that household..eww.
But in TS3 they are so I hope they think about that as we have all probably at some point requested or wanted a deeper family unit. And to remain kin even if they move out.
I think we all wanted larger areas or even open world or districts or hoods, without loading screens. Visit neighbor without a loading screen is probably something we all desired. I think everyone can agree about that and a way to place objects in those areas of common ground just like we had in 1,2 and 3. World editors(not world builder) matters to most of us. I also think more people would use a world editor if they had one, or a way to change the backdrops and remove trees or shrubs in TS4 to place a table or whatever (like we can the flea market table in TS4) ...but it's five years later and not sure that will ever happen. I think we all want larger living spaces, without predetermined world sets we can't edit at all. I think we all would prefer not to be told what type of building we have to build to get Sims to show up. Predetermined lots and their requirements or no Sims show up is annoying to builders, and to players. Lots we can't edit without some cheat is also annoying. Free up the non editable lots. I also think we have all wished for a way to put a vacant lot somewhere on the map without being told it's impossible. That harkens back to the days of TS1, we've grown way beyond that now.
I think we all want toggles to turn on or off whatever it is that interrupts us and our own gameplay and story. I think we can all say three trait slots isn't quite enough if we want a truily unique Sim and that traits should determine what a Sim is feeling or doing and not some decor in a room. I think we want the Sim to know what is happening and why some of us feel just deleting a parent or friend is shallow, and doesn't prove to us this game has any depth when they don't even know the parent is missing. I think death is a big deal in life and it should be for Sims, and a little more empathy for each other or awareness of it probably matters to most players.
Life isn't a bowl of cherries, or dress up and redo, so I think most players would like to see choices that have consequences (not text in a game) where the Sim has to over come those things or it's dire straights. We all make mistakes and bad choices, and I think we should go back to the roots of TS1 and find that sort of gameplay where you felt good you were able to figure out how that Sim could persevere over a bad choice. There can never be success without failure. And we are old enough and smart enough to figure those things out without hand holding instructions.
I mainly agree, I just want to reiterate, though, that regarding any new world designs, they must include rotational play from the beginning. Without the ability to create my own Sims for my worlds/neighborhoods and the freedom to switch around and play whichever household I want, I absolutely will not support the game. I abandoned Sims 3 at base game because of this, and it was depressing because when World Adventures came out, I really wanted to play it but I wasn't going to support a game that didn't support me. I can forgive an art style that I don't like because I'll use CC. I can forgive some minor annoying bugs and design mechanics because I'll use mods from the community. But if they take away rotational play again, it's non-negotiable and I'll walk away. There is no reason to abandon an entire play style again. This goes for builders (world editing, terrain tools, well-rounded build modes etc), family players (toddlers, complete personalities, relationships, genealogy etc), deviants (believable Sim reactions, including the "negative" side, death and mourning, proper anger and enmity, evil, etc), designers (color wheels, or an expansive color grid, a program- even if it's an external one to ship with the game- that allows customization of furniture, CAS, and house designs and textures, etc), and others. They need to find a way to make these things work or they will start losing as many players as they gain.
I had 20 families in Sims 3 I went back and forth between. Still do. It might not actually be "rotational" in the EA sense of the word, but it can be done and it worked for me.
The main reasons I didn't move on to Sims 4, past the base game, is due to no open world, edit town or Create-a-Style. They are my deal breakers for me.
Yes, I know they added it in later on, and a few months ago I picked up some of the EPs for $5 each to try it out again. It's so unintuitive and I really dislike the compromises. You can tell the game wasn't originally designed for it by the way it plays. I plan to try it out again, though. Honestly, I miss Sims 2's version of rotational play, it was awesome and enjoyable, but unfortunately for me, I don't see them going back to the time freeze within households. But since they did eventually find a way to include rotational in an open world game, my hope is that, if they do return to some kind of open world, they find a way to include rotational play from the get go so that it's optimized and doesn't cost any progress. Otherwise, I'd rather they drop open world because that's not a proper sandbox game to me if I can't even play my game and control the Sims I want in the neighborhood.
I'm kind of hoping that gaming tech has progressed enough that we can have the best of both worlds next time (haha, pun) and that, even if it's a smaller scale open world, that they can design it well enough to make both camps happy.
Even though it is possible to switch between families in Sims 3 and play rotational that way, I think it’s undebatable it indeed can’t be compared to Sims 1 and 2’s rotational play. When you love that way of playing the game, Sims 3 simply indeed will be a problem. I agree the game clearly wasn’t designed to play different families alternately and I think the reason might be they weren’t aware people actually loved doing that. Story Progression was one of Sims 3’s selling points and SP is the opposite of playing rotational. What I wouldn’t agree with, is calling that a flaw. It’s clearly a choice. If not being able to play rotational (Sims 2 and 1 style) is a flaw, then not being able to play with universal aging and story progression (like in Sims 1 and 2) consequently should be considered a flaw as well. I don’t think it is. What I’ll never understand is, why technically it apparently is possible to add old school rotational play to Sims 3 (because NRaas did), but EA never implemented anything remotely catering rotational players.
I don’t quite follow why an open world game can’t be a proper sandbox game by the way. Sandbox doesn’t mean being allowed to control every character, it means (I quote):
“A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will. In contrast to a progression-style game, a sandbox game emphasizes roaming and allows a gamer to select tasks. Instead of featuring segmented areas or numbered levels, a sandbox game usually occurs in a “world” to which the gamer has full access from start to finish. A sandbox game is also known as an open-world or free-roaming game.”
Where did this quote come from? Because "minimal character limitations" definitely qualifies rotational play, as I see it. Also, when speaking of sandbox gameplay specifically in regards to The Sims, I think it has varying interpretations, but "sandbox" denotes a flexibility in gameplay that suits the player's preferences. So, in my case, rotational play.
**Also, I just need to add that I think you're inserting things in my post in your mind, because I never called story progression a "flaw". And you might want to reread my post altogether because I did not state that open world can't be a sandbox game. I specifically stated, "that's not a proper sandbox game to me if I can't even play my game and control the Sims I want in the neighborhood."
I know you don't like when people speak out against open world, but you're trying way too hard to argue semantics and pick apart my statements. Please respect that my opinion and preferences are just different from yours. There is no "proper" way to define a Sims sandbox game, and there is no play style that is right or wrong. My point is that no matter how good a Sims open world development is, if it excludes rotational play, I will not enjoy the game and I will not support it. So I would like them to seriously consider never eliminating this play style again because I would like to continue to play it. My opinion is not going to change.
I sometimes find it hard whether I should quote someone or not (sometimes I deliberately don’t quote for this reason, while clearly reacting to a specific post,) because I find it very distracting when people feel personally attacked by my opinions, thinking that by counterposing I don’t grant them theirs. I never ever mean to attack someone and not every word and every space between the words in my reaction is directly referring to the quoted comment. Comments rather trigger a line of thoughts. Like the ‘flaw’ remark (though triggered by “I can forgive”; what else can you forgive than a flaw) is broader than just your post, it’s what I often notice, in general. People considering that a flaw in Sims 3.
I’m just sharing my opinions about this game and its different versions and approaches. I think I made it clear I in fact acknowledge Sims 3 did a poor job for rotational players. Nowhere did I suggest that is fine by me, because it isn’t. I’d love for this game to cater all playing styles.
So no, I don’t mind when people speak out against open world (I’d appreciate people would leave out such personal ‘observations’, you have no idea what I like or don’t like, let’s talk about the game, not each other), by all means, do when that’s how you feel. I actually like to defend my visions in this and argue why, because I love to talk about this game and about open world in particular. Because it’s so important to me and explaining why and defending it so very easy. Please do allow me to disagree and defend open world until my last breath when people downplay it, because that happens to be my playing style and I desperately want it back. Because nothing beats open world for me. Where do you see me expecting for your opinion to change though? On the contrary, I’m pretty much with you in the observation rotational play the way it is in Sims 3 won’t do for rotational play fans old/original style. “When you love that way of playing the game, Sims 3 simply indeed will be a problem” were my exact words.
“There is no "proper" way to define a Sims sandbox game, and there is no play style that is right or wrong” you say. I never said there was though, you did. ”Otherwise, I'd rather they drop open world because that's not a proper sandbox game to me.”
It is. Also a Sims game that doesn’t allow you to play rotational the way you were used to in Sims 2, is a ‘proper’ sandbox game. All Sims games are sandbox, meaning that it’s up to the player what happens and we’re free to go wherever we want to go. Sims 1 does that, Sims 2 does that, Sims 3 does that and Sims 4 does (though I must add that the fact in that game I actually really can’t control what happens to my active sims all the time, sims in my own household, is a big problem for me; in all the other versions we at least can do that). When I play Detroit and the game tells me to follow a guy into a house and I think “no, I don’t want to” and try to cross the street, I can’t. I have to follow the guy or I won’t be able to continue playing. As a simmer I’m not used to that.
“Why can’t I go do something else?” - “Just... follow the guy, mom!”
My point is that no matter how good a Sims open world development is, if it excludes rotational play, I will not enjoy the game and I will not support it. So I would like them to seriously consider never eliminating this play style again because I would like to continue to play it. My opinion is not going to change.
That's not true. TS3 open world allows for rotational play with the NRAAS Story Progression mod. There are a whole bunch of settings that you can set to make sure it doesn't do anything you don't want it to when you switch active mode to another sim. Your sims won't break up their current relationships, change jobs or work on new skills, won't move to another house, etc. if you don't want them to, until you decide yourself. It is extensive (which is good for rotational players because it gives you a great degree of control), but @Igazor and quite a few other TS3 simmers know and can help you with that as these are all rotational players on TS3. All you need to do is ask.
So it IS possible to play TS3 rotationally and we have TS3 rotational players that can prove that.
I’m going to jump in here and kind of say this post isn’t the least bit helpful or constructive to the convo happening. Saying something is totally possible shouldn’t come with the caveat that you have to install 3rd party mods to make it possible.
I do agree but for some if EA/Maxis will not do it then why not an mod. Even though I do not use mods I do say thank goodness for some of them as they are useful until EA/Maxis ypdates the game and then problems start up. I do not care for core mods for I hate uninstalling and reinstalling.
I normally don't use mods that change gameplay in a way that isn't already there. I'm not against modding any of these games, I use a few, but I feel though TS4 is supposed to be very friendly to mods it's not. Having to update a game monthly and wait on mod updates has literally been a pain in the rear, and how anyone can see that as mod friendly is beyond me. Live service is rather annoying in my opinion, and a dread and if something isn't broke in game it will be next month etc.
One of the reasons I do not use mods, it is an shame that mods have to be used to fix something that the developer is responsible for and sometimes they wait months before it is fixed but once they fix one thing something else breaks. Imho it is the combination of all the packs that are added and some bugs do not show unless an certain routine is followed but one has to remember what that routine was when the bug manifested itself. Also improper playtesting can occour as well.
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There are a lot of opinions in here, I hope everyone feels they have been able to express theirs without feeling ganged up on or anything like that. A lot of us have been playing The Sims since 2001 or before (games like Sim Ant, lol) and others started with TS4. What I think we all want is for developers to understand we probably al expect the next game to have weather, pets, family units, ways to relate Sims to each other in CAS like how many ways we could do that in TS3 (we can't even keep an uncle in TS2 once that child becomes an adult and moves out they are no longer kin and can date....) and in TS4 if a mom or dad dies their child is no longer kin to the aunt or uncle or cousins in that household..eww.
But in TS3 they are so I hope they think about that as we have all probably at some point requested or wanted a deeper family unit. And to remain kin even if they move out.
I think we all wanted larger areas or even open world or districts or hoods, without loading screens. Visit neighbor without a loading screen is probably something we all desired. I think everyone can agree about that and a way to place objects in those areas of common ground just like we had in 1,2 and 3. World editors(not world builder) matters to most of us. I also think more people would use a world editor if they had one, or a way to change the backdrops and remove trees or shrubs in TS4 to place a table or whatever (like we can the flea market table in TS4) ...but it's five years later and not sure that will ever happen. I think we all want larger living spaces, without predetermined world sets we can't edit at all. I think we all would prefer not to be told what type of building we have to build to get Sims to show up. Predetermined lots and their requirements or no Sims show up is annoying to builders, and to players. Lots we can't edit without some cheat is also annoying. Free up the non editable lots. I also think we have all wished for a way to put a vacant lot somewhere on the map without being told it's impossible. That harkens back to the days of TS1, we've grown way beyond that now.
I think we all want toggles to turn on or off whatever it is that interrupts us and our own gameplay and story. I think we can all say three trait slots isn't quite enough if we want a truily unique Sim and that traits should determine what a Sim is feeling or doing and not some decor in a room. I think we want the Sim to know what is happening and why some of us feel just deleting a parent or friend is shallow, and doesn't prove to us this game has any depth when they don't even know the parent is missing. I think death is a big deal in life and it should be for Sims, and a little more empathy for each other or awareness of it probably matters to most players.
Life isn't a bowl of cherries, or dress up and redo, so I think most players would like to see choices that have consequences (not text in a game) where the Sim has to over come those things or it's dire straights. We all make mistakes and bad choices, and I think we should go back to the roots of TS1 and find that sort of gameplay where you felt good you were able to figure out how that Sim could persevere over a bad choice. There can never be success without failure. And we are old enough and smart enough to figure those things out without hand holding instructions.
I mainly agree, I just want to reiterate, though, that regarding any new world designs, they must include rotational play from the beginning. Without the ability to create my own Sims for my worlds/neighborhoods and the freedom to switch around and play whichever household I want, I absolutely will not support the game. I abandoned Sims 3 at base game because of this, and it was depressing because when World Adventures came out, I really wanted to play it but I wasn't going to support a game that didn't support me. I can forgive an art style that I don't like because I'll use CC. I can forgive some minor annoying bugs and design mechanics because I'll use mods from the community. But if they take away rotational play again, it's non-negotiable and I'll walk away. There is no reason to abandon an entire play style again. This goes for builders (world editing, terrain tools, well-rounded build modes etc), family players (toddlers, complete personalities, relationships, genealogy etc), deviants (believable Sim reactions, including the "negative" side, death and mourning, proper anger and enmity, evil, etc), designers (color wheels, or an expansive color grid, a program- even if it's an external one to ship with the game- that allows customization of furniture, CAS, and house designs and textures, etc), and others. They need to find a way to make these things work or they will start losing as many players as they gain.
I had 20 families in Sims 3 I went back and forth between. Still do. It might not actually be "rotational" in the EA sense of the word, but it can be done and it worked for me.
The main reasons I didn't move on to Sims 4, past the base game, is due to no open world, edit town or Create-a-Style. They are my deal breakers for me.
Yes, I know they added it in later on, and a few months ago I picked up some of the EPs for $5 each to try it out again. It's so unintuitive and I really dislike the compromises. You can tell the game wasn't originally designed for it by the way it plays. I plan to try it out again, though. Honestly, I miss Sims 2's version of rotational play, it was awesome and enjoyable, but unfortunately for me, I don't see them going back to the time freeze within households. But since they did eventually find a way to include rotational in an open world game, my hope is that, if they do return to some kind of open world, they find a way to include rotational play from the get go so that it's optimized and doesn't cost any progress. Otherwise, I'd rather they drop open world because that's not a proper sandbox game to me if I can't even play my game and control the Sims I want in the neighborhood.
I'm kind of hoping that gaming tech has progressed enough that we can have the best of both worlds next time (haha, pun) and that, even if it's a smaller scale open world, that they can design it well enough to make both camps happy.
Even though it is possible to switch between families in Sims 3 and play rotational that way, I think it’s undebatable it indeed can’t be compared to Sims 1 and 2’s rotational play. When you love that way of playing the game, Sims 3 simply indeed will be a problem. I agree the game clearly wasn’t designed to play different families alternately and I think the reason might be they weren’t aware people actually loved doing that. Story Progression was one of Sims 3’s selling points and SP is the opposite of playing rotational. What I wouldn’t agree with, is calling that a flaw. It’s clearly a choice. If not being able to play rotational (Sims 2 and 1 style) is a flaw, then not being able to play with universal aging and story progression (like in Sims 1 and 2) consequently should be considered a flaw as well. I don’t think it is. What I’ll never understand is, why technically it apparently is possible to add old school rotational play to Sims 3 (because NRaas did), but EA never implemented anything remotely catering rotational players.
I don’t quite follow why an open world game can’t be a proper sandbox game by the way. Sandbox doesn’t mean being allowed to control every character, it means (I quote):
“A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will. In contrast to a progression-style game, a sandbox game emphasizes roaming and allows a gamer to select tasks. Instead of featuring segmented areas or numbered levels, a sandbox game usually occurs in a “world” to which the gamer has full access from start to finish. A sandbox game is also known as an open-world or free-roaming game.”
Where did this quote come from? Because "minimal character limitations" definitely qualifies rotational play, as I see it. Also, when speaking of sandbox gameplay specifically in regards to The Sims, I think it has varying interpretations, but "sandbox" denotes a flexibility in gameplay that suits the player's preferences. So, in my case, rotational play.
**Also, I just need to add that I think you're inserting things in my post in your mind, because I never called story progression a "flaw". And you might want to reread my post altogether because I did not state that open world can't be a sandbox game. I specifically stated, "that's not a proper sandbox game to me if I can't even play my game and control the Sims I want in the neighborhood."
I know you don't like when people speak out against open world, but you're trying way too hard to argue semantics and pick apart my statements. Please respect that my opinion and preferences are just different from yours. There is no "proper" way to define a Sims sandbox game, and there is no play style that is right or wrong. My point is that no matter how good a Sims open world development is, if it excludes rotational play, I will not enjoy the game and I will not support it. So I would like them to seriously consider never eliminating this play style again because I would like to continue to play it. My opinion is not going to change.
I sometimes find it hard whether I should quote someone or not (sometimes I deliberately don’t quote for this reason, while clearly reacting to a specific post,) because I find it very distracting when people feel personally attacked by my opinions, thinking that by counterposing I don’t grant them theirs. I never ever mean to attack someone and not every word and every space between the words in my reaction is directly referring to the quoted comment. Comments rather trigger a line of thoughts. Like the ‘flaw’ remark (though triggered by “I can forgive”; what else can you forgive than a flaw) is broader than just your post, it’s what I often notice, in general. People considering that a flaw in Sims 3.
I’m just sharing my opinions about this game and its different versions and approaches. I think I made it clear I in fact acknowledge Sims 3 did a poor job for rotational players. Nowhere did I suggest that is fine by me, because it isn’t. I’d love for this game to cater all playing styles.
So no, I don’t mind when people speak out against open world (I’d appreciate people would leave out such personal ‘observations’, you have no idea what I like or don’t like, let’s talk about the game, not each other), by all means, do when that’s how you feel. I actually like to defend my visions in this and argue why, because I love to talk about this game and about open world in particular. Because it’s so important to me and explaining why and defending it so very easy. Please do allow me to disagree and defend open world until my last breath when people downplay it, because that happens to be my playing style and I desperately want it back. Because nothing beats open world for me. Where do you see me expecting for your opinion to change though? On the contrary, I’m pretty much with you in the observation rotational play the way it is in Sims 3 won’t do for rotational play fans old/original style. “When you love that way of playing the game, Sims 3 simply indeed will be a problem” were my exact words.
“There is no "proper" way to define a Sims sandbox game, and there is no play style that is right or wrong” you say. I never said there was though, you did. ”Otherwise, I'd rather they drop open world because that's not a proper sandbox game to me.”
It is. Also a Sims game that doesn’t allow you to play rotational the way you were used to in Sims 2, is a ‘proper’ sandbox game. All Sims games are sandbox, meaning that it’s up to the player what happens and we’re free to go wherever we want to go. Sims 1 does that, Sims 2 does that, Sims 3 does that and Sims 4 does (though I must add that the fact in that game I actually really can’t control what happens to my active sims all the time, sims in my own household, is a big problem for me; in all the other versions we at least can do that). When I play Detroit and the game tells me to follow a guy into a house and I think “no, I don’t want to” and try to cross the street, I can’t. I have to follow the guy or I won’t be able to continue playing. As a simmer I’m not used to that.
“Why can’t I go do something else?” - “Just... follow the guy, mom!”
Okay. So... I don't know if there's a language barrier or if I'm not getting my point to you or misunderstanding you, or I'm bad at properly expressing, or all of that, lol. Also, I think this is turning into a non-argument at this point, but I've got a few more things to say before I drop out, so here goes:
As far as the dumb "sandbox" argument, I did not say there was actually a "correct" sandbox definition, I kept stressing that I was referring to MY PERSONAL definition of a Sims sandbox for MY OWN gameplay, which would include what **I** consider rotational play. Again, I quote myself: "that's not a proper sandbox game to me if I can't even play my game and control the Sims I want in the neighborhood."
But you then replied with an attempt to refute my opinion as if I was trying to define it for everyone, and then, in turn, attempted to define it yourself because you posted this: "I don’t quite follow why an open world game can’t be a proper sandbox game by the way. Sandbox doesn’t mean being allowed to control every character, it means (I quote):
“A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will. In contrast to a progression-style game, a sandbox game emphasizes roaming and allows a gamer to select tasks. Instead of featuring segmented areas or numbered levels, a sandbox game usually occurs in a “world” to which the gamer has full access from start to finish. A sandbox game is also known as an open-world or free-roaming game.”[/quote]
Posting this definition was obviously an attempt to "refute" or somehow change my opinion, otherwise, why would you have posted it? You even bolded the "open world" part, lol. So despite my specification that I was referring to my own perceptions and opinions, it was actually you who then tried to define things. So your claim of accepting the opinions of others isn't entirely true, or this debate wouldn't even be happening because you wouldn't feel the need to counterpoint something that very distinctly did not (or should not) infringe on the preferences of others because it was very personal.
Speaking to the "flaw" reference to SP, thank you for clarifying that you were referencing something you'd seen before and not something from my post. I was a little lost on where that came from, lol. I think that's also where a lot of the miscommunication happened here.
As for the general "open world' debate... Once again, I was merely expressing my personal opinion. And, again, I understand that you prefer open world and want to defend it, but sometimes a statement doesn't really leave any room for that. I was stating specifically my personal experience and my future plans moving forward as a result of it, which cannot be argued or refuted because you cannot argue my hopes for a future game, nor the experiences I have had.
So to reiterate, my main statement was this: "But since they did eventually find a way to include rotational play in an open world game, my hope is that, if they do return to some kind of open world, they find a way to include rotational play from the get go so that it's optimized and doesn't cost any progress. Otherwise, I'd rather they drop open world because that's not a proper sandbox game to me if I can't even play my game and control the Sims I want in the neighborhood.
Now, it would have made more sense to me if you'd just said that you are the opposite and that open world is more important to you and you'd rather sacrifice rotational play, or something like that. But the weird attempt to try to prove wrong my obviously personal preference by trying to define "sandbox" just seemed more like you were going on the offense rather than the defense because I really didn't leave room for defending in that statement. Maybe I misread you, and if I did, my apologies.
But anyway, I'll try to clarify again because this debate is kind of silly and I truly have no hard feelings.
I honestly don't care if Sims 5 is open world or not. I really, really don't. What I care about is, if they do decide to go forward with open world, that they make sure to implement a smooth rotational play system along with it in the base game (and not shoehorning an unmanageable system in later - but building it right into the original engine) so that I can enjoy and support the game. Because if they do not include rotational play, I will not buy the game. I will not support it. And, because we keep hearing the developers say that sometimes things have to be sacrificed for others, then if - IF - they have to make a choice between open world/story progression and rotational play, then I will always vote in favor of rotational play. Always. Because that is the basis of my play style and I can not, will not, play without it. I understand that others would rather have open world. I get that. I get that open world is important to some people the way rotational play is important to me. But that does not put my preferences up for debate, any more than someone else's preferences should be. Truthfully, I think it would be very unfortunate if it came down to an either/or situation by the fifth installment, because I also strongly believe that no one's play style should be left behind next time, which is why I said a few posts back that they should find a way. Find a way to make it work. Find a way to truly evolve the Sims franchise and do it justice. Because we, the players, pay a LOT for this game.
I agree that with today's technology the devs should be able to find a way to give simmers a game that they all like. I think the biggest obstacle is EA's budget restrictions of time and money in development. Which is why I also am not at all optimistic that they will take the time and effort to give us a quality game deserving of the thousands of dollars loyal fans have put into this franchise.
@LiELF With the part about open world I only wanted to refute the statement that an open world game that won’t allow to freeze households, isn’t a proper sandbox game (Sims 4 doesn’t entirely do this either by the way; pregnancies for instance won’t freeze). I don’t think ‘sandbox’ means you must be allowed to micromanage every sim and every household in the game at all times. What I didn’t mean - and maybe that’s what caused the misunderstanding - was that I think this means you simply have to like or accept it. I don’t, I totally understand why Sims 3 isn’t as much fun for you (and other players who favour that playing style) for this very reason and a half-baked rotational system won’t be enough to solve that. Like new swatches and customizable pets won’t make me go: “Wow, Sims 4 does CASt!”
I actually totally understand why players hate that when micromanaging is essential for them (which is why I totally understand why Sims 3 wasn’t their cup of tea the way Sims 2 and 4 aren’t mine), I just didn’t agree with the definition (not being able to micromanage ≠ sandbox), refuting that for me had nothing to do with personal preferences or ‘having’ to like or even accept things.
The subject sandbox has been the subject of many debates here by the way and like I said, personally I think all Sims games fit the description, even when there are some RPG elements or the impossibility to be able to manage each and every sim all the time. It was purely about the definition of sandbox.
To be honest, when all is said and done, I think we both actually want the very same thing from our own perspectives: the game to function in ways that allows us to play the way we want to, and that allows others to do the same. And though that probably will take time and money to implement, it simply must be possible since modders were able to do it. Also in an open world (NRaas SP). And the fact simmers (like you and me) clearly feel so strong and passionate about this, means it will be worth the effort. It’s clearly just that important.
@LiELF With the part about open world I only wanted to refute the statement that an open world game that won’t allow to freeze households, isn’t a proper sandbox game (Sims 4 doesn’t entirely do this either by the way; pregnancies for instance won’t freeze). I don’t think ‘sandbox’ means you must be allowed to micromanage every sim and every household in the game at all times. What I didn’t mean - and maybe that’s what caused the misunderstanding - was that I think this means you simply have to like or accept it. I don’t, I totally understand why Sims 3 isn’t as much fun for you (and other players who favour that playing style) for this very reason and a half-baked rotational system won’t be enough to solve that. Like new swatches and customizable pets won’t make me go: “Wow, Sims 4 does CASt!”
I actually totally understand why players hate that when micromanaging is essential for them (which is why I totally understand why Sims 3 wasn’t their cup of tea the way Sims 2 and 4 aren’t mine), I just didn’t agree with the definition (not being able to micromanage ≠ sandbox), refuting that for me had nothing to do with personal preferences or ‘having’ to like or even accept things.
The subject sandbox has been the subject of many debates here by the way and like I said, personally I think all Sims games fit the description, even when there are some RPG elements or the impossibility to be able to manage each and every sim all the time. It was purely about the definition of sandbox.
To be honest, when all is said and done, I think we both actually want the very same thing from our own perspectives: the game to function in ways that allows us to play the way we want to, and that allows others to do the same. And though that probably will take time and money to implement, it simply must be possible since modders were able to do it. Also in an open world (NRaas SP). And the fact simmers (like you and me) clearly feel so strong and passionate about this, means it will be worth the effort. It’s clearly just that important.
I mean, I think that - because this is EA we're talking about - even if they do find a way to implement all play styles, it's going to mean compromises all around, so many of us still won't be satisfied, but if it's at least enough that allows each of us to play the game our way for the most part, it might work, providing they are willing to invest the time and resources into a very strong and expansive base game. That's where the bulk of the resources need to go, though, not into the afterthought of DLC. Because if they do most of the work up front and get the base game to be as solid as previous games, then the DLC won't need to be as intricate (which is possible why it takes so long to create for Sims 4) because many core systems will be in place, and the game will already contain a good foundation. If they're going to charge us $80 US for a base game, then it should better be an actual base game and not a skeleton of one.
See how they tried to compromise story progression with rotational play in Sims 4, and both camps are still not entirely satisfied with it because it results in each play style feeling half done. The rotational players have to deal with their Sims being selected at random for bartending and yoga jobs, yet when we want to hire our own Sims at restaurants and Vet clinics, we can only choose random townies. (Totally backwards and makes no sense whatsoever.) And story progression only goes so far in Sims 4 because families don't move in with each other or reproduce, so the population kind of dies out. I can see where that would kill the enjoyability of a neighborhood if a player only likes to play one household at a time.
I know that they've said that toggles can cause instability, but I just feel that if it's something that's built in to begin with, and not thrown in later, the game will be more adaptable to it. Because that's really the only solution to SP vs rotational that is going to please both camps. But they'll have to stay on top of polishing it with every edition of DLC.
Sims 4 rotational play isn't the best, but I can deal with the compromise if they go that route again. My ideal is Sims 2, where I could choose their careers (or not) and leave a household and not have anything changed, save for some new acquaintances. I don't see that as micromanaging though, I see that as having the freedom to play the way I want and the flexibility to build my Sims and neighborhood communities how I want them to be because I don't like or use game created townies. I actually don't like to micromanage my households, and for many, I don't even select careers because they get in the way of Sim availability sometimes, so I don't want the game doing it for me. I always play with free will on because I like unpredictability in my game and I want their own personalities to guide my gameplay. Sims 4, of course, lacks this, so I end up with repetitious gameplay and cloned behaviors. In Sims 2, If a Sim kept getting a whim to join a specific career, then I would put them in it because it's what they "chose". The whims in Sims 2 (and I suspect in Sims 3 as well) were excellent optional guides that connected with the individuality of the Sims. Too bad Sims 4 made them all generic and useless. I can't believe they just hid them away as a solution, lol. So many wasted opportunities.
I'm not sure TS5 will be the answer to TS2, 3 or 4. If they are chasing after young non players who don't even attempt to play life simulators what will that say about their influence onto the next game? I mean they hang on instagram, I have nothing in common with them there. They supposedly like that new line of clothes and why EA went to the trouble of engaging the Italian designer to capture those who hang on instagram? Or something like that. I think that stuff is ugly. It was o.k. for the mod age but not now. It's way to retro unless you want to play some wierd game of back to the future. I can't think a huge bubble dress is something I want to ever see in my games as everyday wear.
They like games like Candy Crush...for all I know TS5 could be a game of click and stars explode. If they aren't listening to the core fans (whether those are 2, 3, or 4 players) what gives us any hope they will build a new game on what we suggested or wanted. I mean if the crowds are going nuts over one white shelf, and more tasks to do, like do A, B, C..and call it a day, I know I'm not the targeted audience when I can play those games for less than $10 or for free.
TS5 isn't looking so bright or promising anymore when they rather make a game about youtubers' popularity, and gold mesh clothes. Baby whomever, never heard of them, and I don't give a flying fig of who is and who isn't over on Youtube, or what's the lastest rage over in California. I don't give a flying fig about 'connecting' with others, or what's hot and what's not. Or what is the lastest pokemon character, or what is the lastest boss in some fight game. Or which developer likes collecting MySim statues, or thinks the Sim pc is the best invention ever to do all and any tasks or things as activities on a good old pc instead of using gray matter to build a better object. I don't care who is sharing their selfies on FB or Instagram, or wherever, but apparently these are the people EA wants as new customers. Well, o.k., fine, go for it, but don't expect any of us here with our guaranteed money, to be around this time, and go ahead and give away the base, because we have all left the building, and you will need them.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
@Cinebar I wish I could give you more than one awesome. Yep, I'm a fossil and apparently they don't want my money anymore so they are not getting it. I will play sims 3 ( I didn't start with sims2, started with Sims 3 in 2012) until my disks give out and then if it is still available on steam, will buy it there. I will not be connected to origin. They ticked me off with that little trick tying our dlc to origin. So, right now I have all disk and my store stuff saved in multiple places.
I can't imagine them trying to lure us back with a Sims 5 that could be any better than 2 or 3 or a combo of them like many of us hoped for. They want live service, online ties, the least animations, the least traits, the least complex sims, tiny towns with backdrops that can't be played in, poor cartoony sims, that they can get by with. I would love a game that goes forward with the technology available that would enable us to have a truly awesome game that allowed all players, sandbox, rotational, deviant, occult fans, medieval fans, story tellers, builders, family or single loving simmers (did I miss any?) to really enjoy the Sims series again. I don't want to play this game on my phone or a tablet. Build me a game that can be played on my puter thank you very much. If I want a phone game I can get those for free....and apparently could get the base of 4 for free recently. Didn't even bother with that offer.
Thank goodness I own and can play Sims 3 and thank God for Twallan and the current Nraas guru's who keep my game going and fixing what the dev's didn't, couldn't, wouldn't or just flat didn't care about. Sounds kinda familiar doesn't it since I see those kind of complaint threads still going on when I occasionally peruse the Sims 4 threads when I look at recent discussion pages.
@Cinebar I wish I could give you more than one awesome. Yep, I'm a fossil and apparently they don't want my money anymore so they are not getting it. I will play sims 3 ( I didn't start with sims2, started with Sims 3 in 2012) until my disks give out and then if it is still available on steam, will buy it there. I will not be connected to origin. They ticked me off with that little trick tying our dlc to origin. So, right now I have all disk and my store stuff saved in multiple places.
I can't imagine them trying to lure us back with a Sims 5 that could be any better than 2 or 3 or a combo of them like many of us hoped for. They want live service, online ties, the least animations, the least traits, the least complex sims, tiny towns with backdrops that can't be played in, poor cartoony sims, that they can get by with. I would love a game that goes forward with the technology available that would enable us to have a truly awesome game that allowed all players, sandbox, rotational, deviant, occult fans, medieval fans, story tellers, builders, family or single loving simmers (did I miss any?) to really enjoy the Sims series again. I don't want to play this game on my phone or a tablet. Build me a game that can be played on my puter thank you very much. If I want a phone game I can get those for free....and apparently could get the base of 4 for free recently. Didn't even bother with that offer.
Thank goodness I own and can play Sims 3 and thank God for Twallan and the current Nraas guru's who keep my game going and fixing what the dev's didn't, couldn't, wouldn't or just flat didn't care about. Sounds kinda familiar doesn't it since I see those kind of complaint threads still going on when I occasionally peruse the Sims 4 threads when I look at recent discussion pages.
Apparently all that guaranteed money the former CM bragged about isn't there, if they are going to try to expand by giving the game away for free for a week. If that's not a mobile model of business practices then I dont' know what is. Hook them now, and make them pay and pay and pay later.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
I have a friend that the last game she played was The Sims 2 and she asked me if The Sims 4 is worth it. Since its free now I tell her that she can download the game just to try. She tried and also tried The Sims 3 on my computer and she wanted to buy The Sims 3. I didn't know because I already have it but when she was trying to buy TS3 on Origin, the base game can only be purchased as a part of a starter pack in Origin access. Why? Thank god the game is on steam so I tell her to wait until steam put The Sims 3 on sale again.
Are they giving TS4 for free this week and in a way blocking new players to buy The Sims 3 base with this moves? looks desperate!
I'm not very satisfied with Sims 3's story progression either by the way. And personally I'd also be fine with managing careers and pregnancies manually, like Mastercontroller allows me to. I click on a house in edit town and a few clicks later the sims in there expect a child. I can also give them careers that way (or make them quit or change jobs). And open worlds could be smaller than Sims 3's if that would help performance (though a lot of the performance issues come down to routing errors that most definitely can be avoided), yet way bigger than Sims 4's neighborhoods and without the loading screens between lots. And a system where you can set households: allow them to progress or not (and by that I also mean aging, or putting pregnancies on hold until you return), isn't that all we need? When I try to pinpoint why open world is so important to me, that mainly comes down to cohesion, the feeling of a real society your sim is part of. The way I described in another topic recently. And transportation. And the whole world aging simultaneously. If they'd add the ablity to put that on hold for individual households as well (the ones you want to play), I think everyone would be satisfied really. I don't think simmers expect perfection. Just ways to be able to play the way we prefer to play.
I think toggles just don't combine with Sims 4 very well? Toggles in Sims 3, for the rest Queen of Instability, are very reliable. They just work and do what they must do. So I don't buy their 'toggles causing instability', not in general that is. I really think that only applies to Sims 4 for some reason. I could imagine Sims 4's problem is the combination of time continuing and the many loading screens?
You're right of course, at the end of the day we will all advocate our own preferences if we have to, if that's the choice, and there's nothing wrong with that. I have no idea what they can do and what is too much to ask. All I know is that it wouldn't be a problem for me if they'd take their time, I'd want it all in the basegame because it's a lot harder for them to add it later and that's where the bugs and glitches come in.
I think Sims 2 was set up in a way, that provided enough surprises and fun and unexpected interactions, also without SP. I remember sending my pregnant sim to Twikii Island and when she returned, she was so hungry and so sleepy, that she would have died if I hadn't cheated. That's one surprise I never had in Sims 3 And at another occasion, a sim started to insult my sim and that went very wrong. It was awesome, when later this sim called to try and make amends. Consequences, memories, feeling personal about what happens, that is so important. And indeed, like you say, their whims/wishes representing their personalities and adjusting based on player's choices is something they overlooked this time. I like the liveliness of the animations in Sims 4 and I like the emotions and how they affect your sims, but I wish they were attached to personalities and interactions between sims and memories instead of auras and objects.
My "guaranteed" money surely isn't there. I've spent thousands on this series, but I won't be spending another dime.
I would love to get back the type of game that I love, but it has become painfully obvious to me that is just a pipe dream. 5 is most likely going in a direction that I'm not interested in and I don't see them changing their practise of rushing things out the door to make some quick money while leaving problems of their own creation unfixed.
I would love to see them surprise me with a high quality game possessing the content and gameplay that I love, but I seriously doubt that will happen from what I've seen in recent years.
@LiELF Couldn't agree more. They really need to find a way to respect us: the customers, the fans. We are not here to hear the same excuses over and over the time. It's better for them to stop making those stupid updates for Sims 4. The upcoming "350 new colors swatches" just demonstrate how limited in resources is the current base game(instead to give us a real decent Color Wheel). What about burglars, firefigheters and newspaper deliverer NPC? Real babies, more family-oriented gameplay that valorize every life stages? I've fear that this game will remain the same in all of his infamous engine from here to 2022... I mean come on, it's not possible to accept those shame of people that are working(now) badly on a important game like this. They should start to worrying about the community and take more seriously their job. I'd rather just prefer that they admit that The sims 4 can't go forward and/or improve in better, even with another 1000 expansions/game/stuff packs (but this would only happen in my justice dreams). Only Seasons have saved a little bit this poorly made game. This is too much... They only want money, making the less possible in therm of quality/replay value(I'm looking at you Strangerville...). I really hope that they are working hard(maybe with a secret different team) on The sims 5, focusing on the real simulation aspect (full of animations and passion) and demonstrating us that they can still make a good game like one time(The Sims 2 + The Sims 3) if they really want to. I'm saying this because I still believe in them afterall, despite all of their messes!
I'm not sure TS5 will be the answer to TS2, 3 or 4. If they are chasing after young non players who don't even attempt to play life simulators what will that say about their influence onto the next game? I mean they hang on instagram, I have nothing in common with them there. They supposedly like that new line of clothes and why EA went to the trouble of engaging the Italian designer to capture those who hang on instagram? Or something like that. I think that stuff is ugly. It was o.k. for the mod age but not now. It's way to retro unless you want to play some wierd game of back to the future. I can't think a huge bubble dress is something I want to ever see in my games as everyday wear.
They like games like Candy Crush...for all I know TS5 could be a game of click and stars explode. If they aren't listening to the core fans (whether those are 2, 3, or 4 players) what gives us any hope they will build a new game on what we suggested or wanted. I mean if the crowds are going nuts over one white shelf, and more tasks to do, like do A, B, C..and call it a day, I know I'm not the targeted audience when I can play those games for less than $10 or for free.
TS5 isn't looking so bright or promising anymore when they rather make a game about youtubers' popularity, and gold mesh clothes. Baby whomever, never heard of them, and I don't give a flying fig of who is and who isn't over on Youtube, or what's the lastest rage over in California. I don't give a flying fig about 'connecting' with others, or what's hot and what's not. Or what is the lastest pokemon character, or what is the lastest boss in some fight game. Or which developer likes collecting MySim statues, or thinks the Sim pc is the best invention ever to do all and any tasks or things as activities on a good old pc instead of using gray matter to build a better object. I don't care who is sharing their selfies on FB or Instagram, or wherever, but apparently these are the people EA wants as new customers. Well, o.k., fine, go for it, but don't expect any of us here with our guaranteed money, to be around this time, and go ahead and give away the base, because we have all left the building, and you will need them.
That's one of the main problems with EA is that they are always chasing trends. But trends come and go quickly and become obsolete. I've already seen one of the devs remarking on this regarding some of the Sims 4 clothing styles that are outdated.
I keep saying that they need to stop pursuing "what's hot now" and focus on making an ageless game. It takes more than an art style to give a game longevity. A lot of the things you mentioned above are turning up as activities in the game so that the game stays trendy to the younger generations. But these things don't necessarily make for good gameplay. I mean, we can "record" our Sims with a drone, yet we can't watch those recordings? How boring is that? If we could go into first person drone mode, maybe it would be interesting. But all of this in-game techno focus makes for the same 'ol, same 'ol. All Sims are gravitating to computers and TVs and we have YouTube stations and drones and whatever. All of these things are singular activities taken from a growing culture of introversion. There seems to be so few group activities, like "hanging out" - remember that one from Sims 2? It was a good way to get a group of Sims social meters up at once and they would all sit on the floor and talk to each other and shift positions from time to time. You could leave them there and do something with a different Sim and be productive. They wouldn't have ADD and jump up in two seconds, wander over to the computer and "troll teh forums" alone. We used to have "kicky ball" and pillow fights and kids could play tag and cops and robbers. But EA keeps focusing on modern culture without questioning if modern culture actually makes for good gameplay. Hint: It does not. At least, not by itself.
I don't know what it is about Sims 4 that seems to be so difficult to program the Sims to do group activities. (Maybe an engine built for singular, online play?) I mean, when they came out with Get Together and promoted the dancing, I thought the group dance was going to be in addition to "normal", natural dancing. But we got some kind of performance dancing and some of the moves just look awkward and unnatural to me. Having a Sim bust out with some of those dances just looks bizarre. And all Sims constantly gravitate to the DJ booth so I hardly ever use DJs because that seriously annoys me. Who does that? For a game company that keeps promoting awareness and diversity, sometimes it really seems like they don't even "get" life outside of California, lol. They're still looking at other cultures and even other areas in the US from an American, Californian perspective. (No dog houses because "no one uses them anymore"? What?) Remember how long it took to get long sleeved clothing into the game because everything seemed to cater to Cali weather and styles (short pants, ugh!)? Maybe they need to hire some more regionally and nationally diverse developers. Including age diverse so we can have actual activities and bring back some of the fun aspects of previous games. I'm not saying they haven't put some good stuff in the game, or that all DLC has been lacking, because there are definitely things that I think have been done beautifully. But that base game is where the failure is. Skimping on Sim personalities, completely skipping the entirety of a Fear emotion and Sim fears altogether, cookie-cutter Sims, no memories, non-flaws, missing consequences, excessive happiness, etc.... no matter what they add, if they don't fix these things, people are going to continue to create boredom threads because the foundation of the game falls short.
Catering to the young crowd may be successful and good for them now, but by the end of Sims 4, that young crowd will be older, and looking for more meaningful gameplay. As will the rest of us "core" players. If they don't produce it, they won't be able to match those profit numbers that they need so badly. Because if the game can't even hold the attention of new Simmers now, after four and a half years, and even Game Changers are getting bored and playing previous iterations, it certainly won't in the future if they don't step it up.
I'm not sure TS5 will be the answer to TS2, 3 or 4. If they are chasing after young non players who don't even attempt to play life simulators what will that say about their influence onto the next game? I mean they hang on instagram, I have nothing in common with them there. They supposedly like that new line of clothes and why EA went to the trouble of engaging the Italian designer to capture those who hang on instagram? Or something like that. I think that stuff is ugly. It was o.k. for the mod age but not now. It's way to retro unless you want to play some wierd game of back to the future. I can't think a huge bubble dress is something I want to ever see in my games as everyday wear.
They like games like Candy Crush...for all I know TS5 could be a game of click and stars explode. If they aren't listening to the core fans (whether those are 2, 3, or 4 players) what gives us any hope they will build a new game on what we suggested or wanted. I mean if the crowds are going nuts over one white shelf, and more tasks to do, like do A, B, C..and call it a day, I know I'm not the targeted audience when I can play those games for less than $10 or for free.
TS5 isn't looking so bright or promising anymore when they rather make a game about youtubers' popularity, and gold mesh clothes. Baby whomever, never heard of them, and I don't give a flying fig of who is and who isn't over on Youtube, or what's the lastest rage over in California. I don't give a flying fig about 'connecting' with others, or what's hot and what's not. Or what is the lastest pokemon character, or what is the lastest boss in some fight game. Or which developer likes collecting MySim statues, or thinks the Sim pc is the best invention ever to do all and any tasks or things as activities on a good old pc instead of using gray matter to build a better object. I don't care who is sharing their selfies on FB or Instagram, or wherever, but apparently these are the people EA wants as new customers. Well, o.k., fine, go for it, but don't expect any of us here with our guaranteed money, to be around this time, and go ahead and give away the base, because we have all left the building, and you will need them.
Yes, I agree with you as they are looking at an different generation now as those they are looking at now have different tastes and do not know what it was like back in the day and today it is more about eye candy and not enough substance and I come from the day when EA as well as Maxis was just starting out and believe me EA as well as Maxis was way different back then compared to today for at some point it is sad to what has come of them today Imho. But is not the company itself but the people who changes and therefore the company changes you can look at their motto now and it is no longer challenge everything for to me there is nothing to challenge. What Sims series is changing into is more of an Tablet/Ipad game setting even if available for PC. In an way I expected this to happen as each sequel is produced it becomes more watered down as time moves on. Sims series need more robust themes with very good features and also thinking out the box like an theme with Sims living on other planets with other aliens and thier wacky way of living just as an start or example for they already have aliens and can take it an step further. I am at an point now as an gamer who plays other games I could care less if it makes it or go down the tubes as I seen other games that was just as great as the Sims go down and the gaming platform will just keep on trucking.
Omen by HP Intel®️ Core™️ i9- 12900K W/ RGB Liquid Cooler 32GB Nvidia RTX 3080 10Gb ASUS Ultra-Wide 34" Curved Monitor. Omen By HP Intel® Core™ i7-12800HX 32 GB Nvidia 3070 Ti 8 GB 17.3 Screen
I'm not sure TS5 will be the answer to TS2, 3 or 4. If they are chasing after young non players who don't even attempt to play life simulators what will that say about their influence onto the next game? I mean they hang on instagram, I have nothing in common with them there. They supposedly like that new line of clothes and why EA went to the trouble of engaging the Italian designer to capture those who hang on instagram? Or something like that. I think that stuff is ugly. It was o.k. for the mod age but not now. It's way to retro unless you want to play some wierd game of back to the future. I can't think a huge bubble dress is something I want to ever see in my games as everyday wear.
They like games like Candy Crush...for all I know TS5 could be a game of click and stars explode. If they aren't listening to the core fans (whether those are 2, 3, or 4 players) what gives us any hope they will build a new game on what we suggested or wanted. I mean if the crowds are going nuts over one white shelf, and more tasks to do, like do A, B, C..and call it a day, I know I'm not the targeted audience when I can play those games for less than $10 or for free.
TS5 isn't looking so bright or promising anymore when they rather make a game about youtubers' popularity, and gold mesh clothes. Baby whomever, never heard of them, and I don't give a flying fig of who is and who isn't over on Youtube, or what's the lastest rage over in California. I don't give a flying fig about 'connecting' with others, or what's hot and what's not. Or what is the lastest pokemon character, or what is the lastest boss in some fight game. Or which developer likes collecting MySim statues, or thinks the Sim pc is the best invention ever to do all and any tasks or things as activities on a good old pc instead of using gray matter to build a better object. I don't care who is sharing their selfies on FB or Instagram, or wherever, but apparently these are the people EA wants as new customers. Well, o.k., fine, go for it, but don't expect any of us here with our guaranteed money, to be around this time, and go ahead and give away the base, because we have all left the building, and you will need them.
Yes, I agree with you as they are looking at an different generation now as those they are looking at now have different tastes and do not know what it was like back in the day and today it is more about eye candy and not enough substance and I come from the day when EA as well as Maxis was just starting out and believe me EA as well as Maxis was way different back then compared to today for at some point it is sad to what has come of them today Imho. But is not the company itself but the people who changes and therefore the company changes you can look at their motto now and it is no longer challenge everything for to me there is nothing to challenge. What Sims series is changing into is more of an Tablet/Ipad game setting even if available for PC. In an way I expected this to happen as each sequel is produced it becomes more watered down as time moves on. Sims series need more robust themes with very good features and also thinking out the box like an theme with Sims living on other planets with other aliens and thier wacky way of living just as an start or example for they already have aliens and can take it an step further. I am at an point now as an gamer who plays other games I could care less if it makes it or go down the tubes as I seen other games that was just as great as the Sims go down and the gaming platform will just keep on trucking.
In a few days it will be June. We are already almost three months into their new business cycle, which began in April, they have three months left to release the promised EP, GP and Stuff pack which Lyndsay said they would be releasing. Either they can wiggle their noses and build three packs within six months or this is gonna be left over stuff they have thrown together to sell as separate packs. I really dread to see what they plan on releasing by the end of Sept. when we can't even get a bug fix for May. Think about it, they have stated three new packs by Oct. 1st. I'm not believing they will have any depth to them at all but more rush jobs.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
I'm not sure TS5 will be the answer to TS2, 3 or 4. If they are chasing after young non players who don't even attempt to play life simulators what will that say about their influence onto the next game? I mean they hang on instagram, I have nothing in common with them there. They supposedly like that new line of clothes and why EA went to the trouble of engaging the Italian designer to capture those who hang on instagram? Or something like that. I think that stuff is ugly. It was o.k. for the mod age but not now. It's way to retro unless you want to play some wierd game of back to the future. I can't think a huge bubble dress is something I want to ever see in my games as everyday wear.
They like games like Candy Crush...for all I know TS5 could be a game of click and stars explode. If they aren't listening to the core fans (whether those are 2, 3, or 4 players) what gives us any hope they will build a new game on what we suggested or wanted. I mean if the crowds are going nuts over one white shelf, and more tasks to do, like do A, B, C..and call it a day, I know I'm not the targeted audience when I can play those games for less than $10 or for free.
TS5 isn't looking so bright or promising anymore when they rather make a game about youtubers' popularity, and gold mesh clothes. Baby whomever, never heard of them, and I don't give a flying fig of who is and who isn't over on Youtube, or what's the lastest rage over in California. I don't give a flying fig about 'connecting' with others, or what's hot and what's not. Or what is the lastest pokemon character, or what is the lastest boss in some fight game. Or which developer likes collecting MySim statues, or thinks the Sim pc is the best invention ever to do all and any tasks or things as activities on a good old pc instead of using gray matter to build a better object. I don't care who is sharing their selfies on FB or Instagram, or wherever, but apparently these are the people EA wants as new customers. Well, o.k., fine, go for it, but don't expect any of us here with our guaranteed money, to be around this time, and go ahead and give away the base, because we have all left the building, and you will need them.
Yes, I agree with you as they are looking at an different generation now as those they are looking at now have different tastes and do not know what it was like back in the day and today it is more about eye candy and not enough substance and I come from the day when EA as well as Maxis was just starting out and believe me EA as well as Maxis was way different back then compared to today for at some point it is sad to what has come of them today Imho. But is not the company itself but the people who changes and therefore the company changes you can look at their motto now and it is no longer challenge everything for to me there is nothing to challenge. What Sims series is changing into is more of an Tablet/Ipad game setting even if available for PC. In an way I expected this to happen as each sequel is produced it becomes more watered down as time moves on. Sims series need more robust themes with very good features and also thinking out the box like an theme with Sims living on other planets with other aliens and thier wacky way of living just as an start or example for they already have aliens and can take it an step further. I am at an point now as an gamer who plays other games I could care less if it makes it or go down the tubes as I seen other games that was just as great as the Sims go down and the gaming platform will just keep on trucking.
In a few days it will be June. We are already almost three months into their new business cycle, which began in April, they have three months left to release the promised EP, GP and Stuff pack which Lyndsay said they would be releasing. Either they can wiggle their noses and build three packs within six months or this is gonna be left over stuff they have thrown together to sell as separate packs. I really dread to see what they plan on releasing by the end of Sept. when we can't even get a bug fix for May. Think about it, they have stated three new packs by Oct. 1st. I'm not believing they will have any depth to them at all but more rush jobs.
That's not how packs are built, though, according to past information. Many concepts are started way in advance, sometimes years, of the estimated release, and features of several different packs plus free content can be worked on at the same time. They don't wait until one is finished to begin work on the next, and they don't even do it quarter by quarter or by fiscal year. They have approximately 200 developers for Sims 4 working on many things at once. This is most likely why a Sims game gains momentum in its later years, because as time goes on, more things come to fruition.
That doesn't mean the packs are automatically going to be wonderful, of course. But if an expansion is announced to release in June, that means it's been worked on at least since Seasons released because they've stated it takes (on average) about a year to create an expansion, six to eight months for a game pack, and three or four (I think) for a stuff pack. I believe they also said that sometimes they will shift people around to put more focus into an upcoming release if they think it needs more work. But we had the same lull this time last year, right before Seasons came out, so this really isn't anything new.
I guess we'll see soon enough, maybe even an announcement this week, with EA Play coming up soon, and if the rumors of a tropical expansion are true. If they put ocean swimming in the game, it will make a bunch of people happy, anyway.
I'm not sure TS5 will be the answer to TS2, 3 or 4. If they are chasing after young non players who don't even attempt to play life simulators what will that say about their influence onto the next game? I mean they hang on instagram, I have nothing in common with them there. They supposedly like that new line of clothes and why EA went to the trouble of engaging the Italian designer to capture those who hang on instagram? Or something like that. I think that stuff is ugly. It was o.k. for the mod age but not now. It's way to retro unless you want to play some wierd game of back to the future. I can't think a huge bubble dress is something I want to ever see in my games as everyday wear.
They like games like Candy Crush...for all I know TS5 could be a game of click and stars explode. If they aren't listening to the core fans (whether those are 2, 3, or 4 players) what gives us any hope they will build a new game on what we suggested or wanted. I mean if the crowds are going nuts over one white shelf, and more tasks to do, like do A, B, C..and call it a day, I know I'm not the targeted audience when I can play those games for less than $10 or for free.
TS5 isn't looking so bright or promising anymore when they rather make a game about youtubers' popularity, and gold mesh clothes. Baby whomever, never heard of them, and I don't give a flying fig of who is and who isn't over on Youtube, or what's the lastest rage over in California. I don't give a flying fig about 'connecting' with others, or what's hot and what's not. Or what is the lastest pokemon character, or what is the lastest boss in some fight game. Or which developer likes collecting MySim statues, or thinks the Sim pc is the best invention ever to do all and any tasks or things as activities on a good old pc instead of using gray matter to build a better object. I don't care who is sharing their selfies on FB or Instagram, or wherever, but apparently these are the people EA wants as new customers. Well, o.k., fine, go for it, but don't expect any of us here with our guaranteed money, to be around this time, and go ahead and give away the base, because we have all left the building, and you will need them.
Yes, I agree with you as they are looking at an different generation now as those they are looking at now have different tastes and do not know what it was like back in the day and today it is more about eye candy and not enough substance and I come from the day when EA as well as Maxis was just starting out and believe me EA as well as Maxis was way different back then compared to today for at some point it is sad to what has come of them today Imho. But is not the company itself but the people who changes and therefore the company changes you can look at their motto now and it is no longer challenge everything for to me there is nothing to challenge. What Sims series is changing into is more of an Tablet/Ipad game setting even if available for PC. In an way I expected this to happen as each sequel is produced it becomes more watered down as time moves on. Sims series need more robust themes with very good features and also thinking out the box like an theme with Sims living on other planets with other aliens and thier wacky way of living just as an start or example for they already have aliens and can take it an step further. I am at an point now as an gamer who plays other games I could care less if it makes it or go down the tubes as I seen other games that was just as great as the Sims go down and the gaming platform will just keep on trucking.
In a few days it will be June. We are already almost three months into their new business cycle, which began in April, they have three months left to release the promised EP, GP and Stuff pack which Lyndsay said they would be releasing. Either they can wiggle their noses and build three packs within six months or this is gonna be left over stuff they have thrown together to sell as separate packs. I really dread to see what they plan on releasing by the end of Sept. when we can't even get a bug fix for May. Think about it, they have stated three new packs by Oct. 1st. I'm not believing they will have any depth to them at all but more rush jobs.
That's not how packs are built, though, according to past information. Many concepts are started way in advance, sometimes years, of the estimated release, and features of several different packs plus free content can be worked on at the same time. They don't wait until one is finished to begin work on the next, and they don't even do it quarter by quarter or by fiscal year. They have approximately 200 developers for Sims 4 working on many things at once. This is most likely why a Sims game gains momentum in its later years, because as time goes on, more things come to fruition.
That doesn't mean the packs are automatically going to be wonderful, of course. But if an expansion is announced to release in June, that means it's been worked on at least since Seasons released because they've stated it takes (on average) about a year to create an expansion, six to eight months for a game pack, and three or four (I think) for a stuff pack. I believe they also said that sometimes they will shift people around to put more focus into an upcoming release if they think it needs more work. But we had the same lull this time last year, right before Seasons came out, so this really isn't anything new.
I guess we'll see soon enough, maybe even an announcement this week, with EA Play coming up soon, and if the rumors of a tropical expansion are true. If they put ocean swimming in the game, it will make a bunch of people happy, anyway.
I know how it works, but c'mon, you think they all have time to do a proper beta test when they are supposed to be releasing three packs within the next three months? Lyndsay @ MM is the one who said there would be three packs released in this quarter and in June we will be in the third month of that quarter. So, that's a lot of testing to do to get three packs out in three months. We didn't even get a bug fix for May..so no, it doesn't look like chewing gum and building packs can all work at the same time.
ETA: And no the EP hasn't been worked on since Seasons,...GF is an EP not a GP so no, it won't have taken a year as you say, since GF was released after Seasons and another is expected soon. (Or at least she said three packs by Oct.)
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
I'm not sure TS5 will be the answer to TS2, 3 or 4. If they are chasing after young non players who don't even attempt to play life simulators what will that say about their influence onto the next game? I mean they hang on instagram, I have nothing in common with them there. They supposedly like that new line of clothes and why EA went to the trouble of engaging the Italian designer to capture those who hang on instagram? Or something like that. I think that stuff is ugly. It was o.k. for the mod age but not now. It's way to retro unless you want to play some wierd game of back to the future. I can't think a huge bubble dress is something I want to ever see in my games as everyday wear.
They like games like Candy Crush...for all I know TS5 could be a game of click and stars explode. If they aren't listening to the core fans (whether those are 2, 3, or 4 players) what gives us any hope they will build a new game on what we suggested or wanted. I mean if the crowds are going nuts over one white shelf, and more tasks to do, like do A, B, C..and call it a day, I know I'm not the targeted audience when I can play those games for less than $10 or for free.
TS5 isn't looking so bright or promising anymore when they rather make a game about youtubers' popularity, and gold mesh clothes. Baby whomever, never heard of them, and I don't give a flying fig of who is and who isn't over on Youtube, or what's the lastest rage over in California. I don't give a flying fig about 'connecting' with others, or what's hot and what's not. Or what is the lastest pokemon character, or what is the lastest boss in some fight game. Or which developer likes collecting MySim statues, or thinks the Sim pc is the best invention ever to do all and any tasks or things as activities on a good old pc instead of using gray matter to build a better object. I don't care who is sharing their selfies on FB or Instagram, or wherever, but apparently these are the people EA wants as new customers. Well, o.k., fine, go for it, but don't expect any of us here with our guaranteed money, to be around this time, and go ahead and give away the base, because we have all left the building, and you will need them.
Yes, I agree with you as they are looking at an different generation now as those they are looking at now have different tastes and do not know what it was like back in the day and today it is more about eye candy and not enough substance and I come from the day when EA as well as Maxis was just starting out and believe me EA as well as Maxis was way different back then compared to today for at some point it is sad to what has come of them today Imho. But is not the company itself but the people who changes and therefore the company changes you can look at their motto now and it is no longer challenge everything for to me there is nothing to challenge. What Sims series is changing into is more of an Tablet/Ipad game setting even if available for PC. In an way I expected this to happen as each sequel is produced it becomes more watered down as time moves on. Sims series need more robust themes with very good features and also thinking out the box like an theme with Sims living on other planets with other aliens and thier wacky way of living just as an start or example for they already have aliens and can take it an step further. I am at an point now as an gamer who plays other games I could care less if it makes it or go down the tubes as I seen other games that was just as great as the Sims go down and the gaming platform will just keep on trucking.
In a few days it will be June. We are already almost three months into their new business cycle, which began in April, they have three months left to release the promised EP, GP and Stuff pack which Lyndsay said they would be releasing. Either they can wiggle their noses and build three packs within six months or this is gonna be left over stuff they have thrown together to sell as separate packs. I really dread to see what they plan on releasing by the end of Sept. when we can't even get a bug fix for May. Think about it, they have stated three new packs by Oct. 1st. I'm not believing they will have any depth to them at all but more rush jobs.
That's not how packs are built, though, according to past information. Many concepts are started way in advance, sometimes years, of the estimated release, and features of several different packs plus free content can be worked on at the same time. They don't wait until one is finished to begin work on the next, and they don't even do it quarter by quarter or by fiscal year. They have approximately 200 developers for Sims 4 working on many things at once. This is most likely why a Sims game gains momentum in its later years, because as time goes on, more things come to fruition.
That doesn't mean the packs are automatically going to be wonderful, of course. But if an expansion is announced to release in June, that means it's been worked on at least since Seasons released because they've stated it takes (on average) about a year to create an expansion, six to eight months for a game pack, and three or four (I think) for a stuff pack. I believe they also said that sometimes they will shift people around to put more focus into an upcoming release if they think it needs more work. But we had the same lull this time last year, right before Seasons came out, so this really isn't anything new.
I guess we'll see soon enough, maybe even an announcement this week, with EA Play coming up soon, and if the rumors of a tropical expansion are true. If they put ocean swimming in the game, it will make a bunch of people happy, anyway.
I know how it works, but c'mon, you think they all have time to do a proper beta test when they are supposed to be releasing three packs within the next three months? Lyndsay @ MM is the one who said there would be three packs released in this quarter and in June we will be in the third month of that quarter. So, that's a lot of testing to do to get three packs out in three months. We didn't even get a bug fix for May..so no, it doesn't look like chewing gum and building packs can all work at the same time.
ETA: And no the EP hasn't been worked on since Seasons,...GF is an EP not a GP so no, it won't have taken a year as you say, since GF was released after Seasons and another is expected soon. (Or at least she said three packs by Oct.)
Lindsay did not say this quarter, she said in the next six months.
And I think you are misinformed as to how packs are created because there has been a lot of discussion about it and questions answered by the delevopers, which is where I have gotten my information. Cats and Dogs alone took over two years to create, I think they said about three. A lot depends on what kind of systems they work on, what features they include, and if the game engine needs to be changed for it. So yes, it takes on average a year to make an EP, so that means that features in Get Famous were being worked on even before Seasons came out, possibly even before Cats and Dogs came out. Like I said, they have stated several times that they are constantly working on many things at once, and multiple packs at a time. This means that Sims 4 content takes a long time to create. There was tons of development info shared when the Laundry Day stuff pack was being created. I assure you, I don't make this stuff up, I am passing on information that was shared with us because I pay attention to that stuff, lol.
I'm not sure TS5 will be the answer to TS2, 3 or 4. If they are chasing after young non players who don't even attempt to play life simulators what will that say about their influence onto the next game? I mean they hang on instagram, I have nothing in common with them there. They supposedly like that new line of clothes and why EA went to the trouble of engaging the Italian designer to capture those who hang on instagram? Or something like that. I think that stuff is ugly. It was o.k. for the mod age but not now. It's way to retro unless you want to play some wierd game of back to the future. I can't think a huge bubble dress is something I want to ever see in my games as everyday wear.
They like games like Candy Crush...for all I know TS5 could be a game of click and stars explode. If they aren't listening to the core fans (whether those are 2, 3, or 4 players) what gives us any hope they will build a new game on what we suggested or wanted. I mean if the crowds are going nuts over one white shelf, and more tasks to do, like do A, B, C..and call it a day, I know I'm not the targeted audience when I can play those games for less than $10 or for free.
TS5 isn't looking so bright or promising anymore when they rather make a game about youtubers' popularity, and gold mesh clothes. Baby whomever, never heard of them, and I don't give a flying fig of who is and who isn't over on Youtube, or what's the lastest rage over in California. I don't give a flying fig about 'connecting' with others, or what's hot and what's not. Or what is the lastest pokemon character, or what is the lastest boss in some fight game. Or which developer likes collecting MySim statues, or thinks the Sim pc is the best invention ever to do all and any tasks or things as activities on a good old pc instead of using gray matter to build a better object. I don't care who is sharing their selfies on FB or Instagram, or wherever, but apparently these are the people EA wants as new customers. Well, o.k., fine, go for it, but don't expect any of us here with our guaranteed money, to be around this time, and go ahead and give away the base, because we have all left the building, and you will need them.
Yes, I agree with you as they are looking at an different generation now as those they are looking at now have different tastes and do not know what it was like back in the day and today it is more about eye candy and not enough substance and I come from the day when EA as well as Maxis was just starting out and believe me EA as well as Maxis was way different back then compared to today for at some point it is sad to what has come of them today Imho. But is not the company itself but the people who changes and therefore the company changes you can look at their motto now and it is no longer challenge everything for to me there is nothing to challenge. What Sims series is changing into is more of an Tablet/Ipad game setting even if available for PC. In an way I expected this to happen as each sequel is produced it becomes more watered down as time moves on. Sims series need more robust themes with very good features and also thinking out the box like an theme with Sims living on other planets with other aliens and thier wacky way of living just as an start or example for they already have aliens and can take it an step further. I am at an point now as an gamer who plays other games I could care less if it makes it or go down the tubes as I seen other games that was just as great as the Sims go down and the gaming platform will just keep on trucking.
In a few days it will be June. We are already almost three months into their new business cycle, which began in April, they have three months left to release the promised EP, GP and Stuff pack which Lyndsay said they would be releasing. Either they can wiggle their noses and build three packs within six months or this is gonna be left over stuff they have thrown together to sell as separate packs. I really dread to see what they plan on releasing by the end of Sept. when we can't even get a bug fix for May. Think about it, they have stated three new packs by Oct. 1st. I'm not believing they will have any depth to them at all but more rush jobs.
That's not how packs are built, though, according to past information. Many concepts are started way in advance, sometimes years, of the estimated release, and features of several different packs plus free content can be worked on at the same time. They don't wait until one is finished to begin work on the next, and they don't even do it quarter by quarter or by fiscal year. They have approximately 200 developers for Sims 4 working on many things at once. This is most likely why a Sims game gains momentum in its later years, because as time goes on, more things come to fruition.
That doesn't mean the packs are automatically going to be wonderful, of course. But if an expansion is announced to release in June, that means it's been worked on at least since Seasons released because they've stated it takes (on average) about a year to create an expansion, six to eight months for a game pack, and three or four (I think) for a stuff pack. I believe they also said that sometimes they will shift people around to put more focus into an upcoming release if they think it needs more work. But we had the same lull this time last year, right before Seasons came out, so this really isn't anything new.
I guess we'll see soon enough, maybe even an announcement this week, with EA Play coming up soon, and if the rumors of a tropical expansion are true. If they put ocean swimming in the game, it will make a bunch of people happy, anyway.
I know how it works, but c'mon, you think they all have time to do a proper beta test when they are supposed to be releasing three packs within the next three months? Lyndsay @ MM is the one who said there would be three packs released in this quarter and in June we will be in the third month of that quarter. So, that's a lot of testing to do to get three packs out in three months. We didn't even get a bug fix for May..so no, it doesn't look like chewing gum and building packs can all work at the same time.
ETA: And no the EP hasn't been worked on since Seasons,...GF is an EP not a GP so no, it won't have taken a year as you say, since GF was released after Seasons and another is expected soon. (Or at least she said three packs by Oct.)
Lindsay did not say this quarter, she said in the next six months.
And I think you are misinformed as to how packs are created because there has been a lot of discussion about it and questions answered by the delevopers, which is where I have gotten my information. Cats and Dogs alone took over two years to create, I think they said about three. A lot depends on what kind of systems they work on, what features they include, and if the game engine needs to be changed for it. So yes, it takes on average a year to make an EP, so that means that features in Get Famous were being worked on even before Seasons came out, possibly even before Cats and Dogs came out. Like I said, they have stated several times that they are constantly working on many things at once, and multiple packs at a time. This means that Sims 4 content takes a long time to create. There was tons of development info shared when the Laundry Day stuff pack was being created. I assure you, I don't make this stuff up, I am passing on information that was shared with us because I pay attention to that stuff, lol.
The fiscal year ends next March. They were supposed to release 20 DLC. Two months of that fiscal year is just about over. June will be the third month of the fiscal year. Lyndsay said three packs in the next six months..sorry, I thought she said that last month, but it was just May when she said that right? O.k. It still winds up having to release three packs by Nov. instead of Oct. Take away a month or two, same difference as what I said.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
Comments
I totally get that too. The frustration of updating every single mod for Sims 4 on even a quarterly basis is a lot of upkeep. Plus, they keep rebuilding the engine so that it thoroughly breaks everything and then there's the waiting period for the modders to update. It gets tiring.
I also agree with @drake_mccarty , MC Command is an amazing mod for Sims 4 as are the mods from Lil Ms Sam and the "Personality Please" mod.
Okay, trying not to digress into mod talk because it's off topic and I'll be here all day, lol.
I don't know how much free time modders have but I do know they fix what EA and Maxis don't for free. It comes down to resources and resources originally went into an online Sims game that majority of the players wouldn't want instead of investing in an offline sandbox game that could've still had this CAS, a better mix with emotions and personalities and more that could've been inspired from player feedback and previous games.
They could've at least invested in fixing their product, which maybe they'll do if the last survey's questions count for anything. But there's a history of having to find workaround or needing mods to fix things which shouldn't be the case.
Absolutely! Not to stray into mod talk either, but Sims 4 has a WIDE variety of mods. If maxis did one thing right early on with 4 it was providing a framework for mods which has led to a lot of people taking advantage of it and making some really cool stuff. Most of the big mods for Sims 3 came from the same source. Ok I’m done
I sometimes find it hard whether I should quote someone or not (sometimes I deliberately don’t quote for this reason, while clearly reacting to a specific post,) because I find it very distracting when people feel personally attacked by my opinions, thinking that by counterposing I don’t grant them theirs. I never ever mean to attack someone and not every word and every space between the words in my reaction is directly referring to the quoted comment. Comments rather trigger a line of thoughts. Like the ‘flaw’ remark (though triggered by “I can forgive”; what else can you forgive than a flaw) is broader than just your post, it’s what I often notice, in general. People considering that a flaw in Sims 3.
I’m just sharing my opinions about this game and its different versions and approaches. I think I made it clear I in fact acknowledge Sims 3 did a poor job for rotational players. Nowhere did I suggest that is fine by me, because it isn’t. I’d love for this game to cater all playing styles.
So no, I don’t mind when people speak out against open world (I’d appreciate people would leave out such personal ‘observations’, you have no idea what I like or don’t like, let’s talk about the game, not each other), by all means, do when that’s how you feel. I actually like to defend my visions in this and argue why, because I love to talk about this game and about open world in particular. Because it’s so important to me and explaining why and defending it so very easy. Please do allow me to disagree and defend open world until my last breath when people downplay it, because that happens to be my playing style and I desperately want it back. Because nothing beats open world for me. Where do you see me expecting for your opinion to change though? On the contrary, I’m pretty much with you in the observation rotational play the way it is in Sims 3 won’t do for rotational play fans old/original style. “When you love that way of playing the game, Sims 3 simply indeed will be a problem” were my exact words.
“There is no "proper" way to define a Sims sandbox game, and there is no play style that is right or wrong” you say. I never said there was though, you did. ”Otherwise, I'd rather they drop open world because that's not a proper sandbox game to me.”
It is. Also a Sims game that doesn’t allow you to play rotational the way you were used to in Sims 2, is a ‘proper’ sandbox game. All Sims games are sandbox, meaning that it’s up to the player what happens and we’re free to go wherever we want to go. Sims 1 does that, Sims 2 does that, Sims 3 does that and Sims 4 does (though I must add that the fact in that game I actually really can’t control what happens to my active sims all the time, sims in my own household, is a big problem for me; in all the other versions we at least can do that). When I play Detroit and the game tells me to follow a guy into a house and I think “no, I don’t want to” and try to cross the street, I can’t. I have to follow the guy or I won’t be able to continue playing. As a simmer I’m not used to that.
“Why can’t I go do something else?”
- “Just... follow the guy, mom!”
One of the reasons I do not use mods, it is an shame that mods have to be used to fix something that the developer is responsible for and sometimes they wait months before it is fixed but once they fix one thing something else breaks. Imho it is the combination of all the packs that are added and some bugs do not show unless an certain routine is followed but one has to remember what that routine was when the bug manifested itself. Also improper playtesting can occour as well.
Okay. So... I don't know if there's a language barrier or if I'm not getting my point to you or misunderstanding you, or I'm bad at properly expressing, or all of that, lol. Also, I think this is turning into a non-argument at this point, but I've got a few more things to say before I drop out, so here goes:
As far as the dumb "sandbox" argument, I did not say there was actually a "correct" sandbox definition, I kept stressing that I was referring to MY PERSONAL definition of a Sims sandbox for MY OWN gameplay, which would include what **I** consider rotational play. Again, I quote myself: "that's not a proper sandbox game to me if I can't even play my game and control the Sims I want in the neighborhood."
But you then replied with an attempt to refute my opinion as if I was trying to define it for everyone, and then, in turn, attempted to define it yourself because you posted this: "I don’t quite follow why an open world game can’t be a proper sandbox game by the way. Sandbox doesn’t mean being allowed to control every character, it means (I quote):
“A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will. In contrast to a progression-style game, a sandbox game emphasizes roaming and allows a gamer to select tasks. Instead of featuring segmented areas or numbered levels, a sandbox game usually occurs in a “world” to which the gamer has full access from start to finish. A sandbox game is also known as an open-world or free-roaming game.”[/quote]
Posting this definition was obviously an attempt to "refute" or somehow change my opinion, otherwise, why would you have posted it? You even bolded the "open world" part, lol. So despite my specification that I was referring to my own perceptions and opinions, it was actually you who then tried to define things. So your claim of accepting the opinions of others isn't entirely true, or this debate wouldn't even be happening because you wouldn't feel the need to counterpoint something that very distinctly did not (or should not) infringe on the preferences of others because it was very personal.
Speaking to the "flaw" reference to SP, thank you for clarifying that you were referencing something you'd seen before and not something from my post. I was a little lost on where that came from, lol. I think that's also where a lot of the miscommunication happened here.
As for the general "open world' debate... Once again, I was merely expressing my personal opinion. And, again, I understand that you prefer open world and want to defend it, but sometimes a statement doesn't really leave any room for that. I was stating specifically my personal experience and my future plans moving forward as a result of it, which cannot be argued or refuted because you cannot argue my hopes for a future game, nor the experiences I have had.
So to reiterate, my main statement was this: "But since they did eventually find a way to include rotational play in an open world game, my hope is that, if they do return to some kind of open world, they find a way to include rotational play from the get go so that it's optimized and doesn't cost any progress. Otherwise, I'd rather they drop open world because that's not a proper sandbox game to me if I can't even play my game and control the Sims I want in the neighborhood.
Now, it would have made more sense to me if you'd just said that you are the opposite and that open world is more important to you and you'd rather sacrifice rotational play, or something like that. But the weird attempt to try to prove wrong my obviously personal preference by trying to define "sandbox" just seemed more like you were going on the offense rather than the defense because I really didn't leave room for defending in that statement. Maybe I misread you, and if I did, my apologies.
But anyway, I'll try to clarify again because this debate is kind of silly and I truly have no hard feelings.
I honestly don't care if Sims 5 is open world or not. I really, really don't. What I care about is, if they do decide to go forward with open world, that they make sure to implement a smooth rotational play system along with it in the base game (and not shoehorning an unmanageable system in later - but building it right into the original engine) so that I can enjoy and support the game. Because if they do not include rotational play, I will not buy the game. I will not support it. And, because we keep hearing the developers say that sometimes things have to be sacrificed for others, then if - IF - they have to make a choice between open world/story progression and rotational play, then I will always vote in favor of rotational play. Always. Because that is the basis of my play style and I can not, will not, play without it. I understand that others would rather have open world. I get that. I get that open world is important to some people the way rotational play is important to me. But that does not put my preferences up for debate, any more than someone else's preferences should be. Truthfully, I think it would be very unfortunate if it came down to an either/or situation by the fifth installment, because I also strongly believe that no one's play style should be left behind next time, which is why I said a few posts back that they should find a way. Find a way to make it work. Find a way to truly evolve the Sims franchise and do it justice. Because we, the players, pay a LOT for this game.
Do you hear me, EA? FIND A WAY.
I actually totally understand why players hate that when micromanaging is essential for them (which is why I totally understand why Sims 3 wasn’t their cup of tea the way Sims 2 and 4 aren’t mine), I just didn’t agree with the definition (not being able to micromanage ≠ sandbox), refuting that for me had nothing to do with personal preferences or ‘having’ to like or even accept things.
The subject sandbox has been the subject of many debates here by the way and like I said, personally I think all Sims games fit the description, even when there are some RPG elements or the impossibility to be able to manage each and every sim all the time. It was purely about the definition of sandbox.
To be honest, when all is said and done, I think we both actually want the very same thing from our own perspectives: the game to function in ways that allows us to play the way we want to, and that allows others to do the same. And though that probably will take time and money to implement, it simply must be possible since modders were able to do it. Also in an open world (NRaas SP). And the fact simmers (like you and me) clearly feel so strong and passionate about this, means it will be worth the effort. It’s clearly just that important.
I mean, I think that - because this is EA we're talking about - even if they do find a way to implement all play styles, it's going to mean compromises all around, so many of us still won't be satisfied, but if it's at least enough that allows each of us to play the game our way for the most part, it might work, providing they are willing to invest the time and resources into a very strong and expansive base game. That's where the bulk of the resources need to go, though, not into the afterthought of DLC. Because if they do most of the work up front and get the base game to be as solid as previous games, then the DLC won't need to be as intricate (which is possible why it takes so long to create for Sims 4) because many core systems will be in place, and the game will already contain a good foundation. If they're going to charge us $80 US for a base game, then it should better be an actual base game and not a skeleton of one.
See how they tried to compromise story progression with rotational play in Sims 4, and both camps are still not entirely satisfied with it because it results in each play style feeling half done. The rotational players have to deal with their Sims being selected at random for bartending and yoga jobs, yet when we want to hire our own Sims at restaurants and Vet clinics, we can only choose random townies. (Totally backwards and makes no sense whatsoever.) And story progression only goes so far in Sims 4 because families don't move in with each other or reproduce, so the population kind of dies out. I can see where that would kill the enjoyability of a neighborhood if a player only likes to play one household at a time.
I know that they've said that toggles can cause instability, but I just feel that if it's something that's built in to begin with, and not thrown in later, the game will be more adaptable to it. Because that's really the only solution to SP vs rotational that is going to please both camps. But they'll have to stay on top of polishing it with every edition of DLC.
Sims 4 rotational play isn't the best, but I can deal with the compromise if they go that route again. My ideal is Sims 2, where I could choose their careers (or not) and leave a household and not have anything changed, save for some new acquaintances. I don't see that as micromanaging though, I see that as having the freedom to play the way I want and the flexibility to build my Sims and neighborhood communities how I want them to be because I don't like or use game created townies. I actually don't like to micromanage my households, and for many, I don't even select careers because they get in the way of Sim availability sometimes, so I don't want the game doing it for me. I always play with free will on because I like unpredictability in my game and I want their own personalities to guide my gameplay. Sims 4, of course, lacks this, so I end up with repetitious gameplay and cloned behaviors. In Sims 2, If a Sim kept getting a whim to join a specific career, then I would put them in it because it's what they "chose". The whims in Sims 2 (and I suspect in Sims 3 as well) were excellent optional guides that connected with the individuality of the Sims. Too bad Sims 4 made them all generic and useless. I can't believe they just hid them away as a solution, lol. So many wasted opportunities.
They like games like Candy Crush...for all I know TS5 could be a game of click and stars explode. If they aren't listening to the core fans (whether those are 2, 3, or 4 players) what gives us any hope they will build a new game on what we suggested or wanted. I mean if the crowds are going nuts over one white shelf, and more tasks to do, like do A, B, C..and call it a day, I know I'm not the targeted audience when I can play those games for less than $10 or for free.
TS5 isn't looking so bright or promising anymore when they rather make a game about youtubers' popularity, and gold mesh clothes. Baby whomever, never heard of them, and I don't give a flying fig of who is and who isn't over on Youtube, or what's the lastest rage over in California. I don't give a flying fig about 'connecting' with others, or what's hot and what's not. Or what is the lastest pokemon character, or what is the lastest boss in some fight game. Or which developer likes collecting MySim statues, or thinks the Sim pc is the best invention ever to do all and any tasks or things as activities on a good old pc instead of using gray matter to build a better object. I don't care who is sharing their selfies on FB or Instagram, or wherever, but apparently these are the people EA wants as new customers. Well, o.k., fine, go for it, but don't expect any of us here with our guaranteed money, to be around this time, and go ahead and give away the base, because we have all left the building, and you will need them.
I can't imagine them trying to lure us back with a Sims 5 that could be any better than 2 or 3 or a combo of them like many of us hoped for. They want live service, online ties, the least animations, the least traits, the least complex sims, tiny towns with backdrops that can't be played in, poor cartoony sims, that they can get by with. I would love a game that goes forward with the technology available that would enable us to have a truly awesome game that allowed all players, sandbox, rotational, deviant, occult fans, medieval fans, story tellers, builders, family or single loving simmers (did I miss any?) to really enjoy the Sims series again. I don't want to play this game on my phone or a tablet. Build me a game that can be played on my puter thank you very much. If I want a phone game I can get those for free....and apparently could get the base of 4 for free recently. Didn't even bother with that offer.
Thank goodness I own and can play Sims 3 and thank God for Twallan and the current Nraas guru's who keep my game going and fixing what the dev's didn't, couldn't, wouldn't or just flat didn't care about. Sounds kinda familiar doesn't it since I see those kind of complaint threads still going on when I occasionally peruse the Sims 4 threads when I look at recent discussion pages.
The Cowboy and the Mermaid
Apparently all that guaranteed money the former CM bragged about isn't there, if they are going to try to expand by giving the game away for free for a week. If that's not a mobile model of business practices then I dont' know what is. Hook them now, and make them pay and pay and pay later.
Are they giving TS4 for free this week and in a way blocking new players to buy The Sims 3 base with this moves? looks desperate!
I think toggles just don't combine with Sims 4 very well? Toggles in Sims 3, for the rest Queen of Instability, are very reliable. They just work and do what they must do. So I don't buy their 'toggles causing instability', not in general that is. I really think that only applies to Sims 4 for some reason. I could imagine Sims 4's problem is the combination of time continuing and the many loading screens?
You're right of course, at the end of the day we will all advocate our own preferences if we have to, if that's the choice, and there's nothing wrong with that. I have no idea what they can do and what is too much to ask. All I know is that it wouldn't be a problem for me if they'd take their time, I'd want it all in the basegame because it's a lot harder for them to add it later and that's where the bugs and glitches come in.
I think Sims 2 was set up in a way, that provided enough surprises and fun and unexpected interactions, also without SP. I remember sending my pregnant sim to Twikii Island and when she returned, she was so hungry and so sleepy, that she would have died if I hadn't cheated. That's one surprise I never had in Sims 3
I would love to get back the type of game that I love, but it has become painfully obvious to me that is just a pipe dream. 5 is most likely going in a direction that I'm not interested in and I don't see them changing their practise of rushing things out the door to make some quick money while leaving problems of their own creation unfixed.
I would love to see them surprise me with a high quality game possessing the content and gameplay that I love, but I seriously doubt that will happen from what I've seen in recent years.
That's one of the main problems with EA is that they are always chasing trends. But trends come and go quickly and become obsolete. I've already seen one of the devs remarking on this regarding some of the Sims 4 clothing styles that are outdated.
I keep saying that they need to stop pursuing "what's hot now" and focus on making an ageless game. It takes more than an art style to give a game longevity. A lot of the things you mentioned above are turning up as activities in the game so that the game stays trendy to the younger generations. But these things don't necessarily make for good gameplay. I mean, we can "record" our Sims with a drone, yet we can't watch those recordings? How boring is that? If we could go into first person drone mode, maybe it would be interesting. But all of this in-game techno focus makes for the same 'ol, same 'ol. All Sims are gravitating to computers and TVs and we have YouTube stations and drones and whatever. All of these things are singular activities taken from a growing culture of introversion. There seems to be so few group activities, like "hanging out" - remember that one from Sims 2? It was a good way to get a group of Sims social meters up at once and they would all sit on the floor and talk to each other and shift positions from time to time. You could leave them there and do something with a different Sim and be productive. They wouldn't have ADD and jump up in two seconds, wander over to the computer and "troll teh forums" alone. We used to have "kicky ball" and pillow fights and kids could play tag and cops and robbers. But EA keeps focusing on modern culture without questioning if modern culture actually makes for good gameplay. Hint: It does not. At least, not by itself.
I don't know what it is about Sims 4 that seems to be so difficult to program the Sims to do group activities. (Maybe an engine built for singular, online play?) I mean, when they came out with Get Together and promoted the dancing, I thought the group dance was going to be in addition to "normal", natural dancing. But we got some kind of performance dancing and some of the moves just look awkward and unnatural to me. Having a Sim bust out with some of those dances just looks bizarre. And all Sims constantly gravitate to the DJ booth so I hardly ever use DJs because that seriously annoys me. Who does that? For a game company that keeps promoting awareness and diversity, sometimes it really seems like they don't even "get" life outside of California, lol. They're still looking at other cultures and even other areas in the US from an American, Californian perspective. (No dog houses because "no one uses them anymore"? What?) Remember how long it took to get long sleeved clothing into the game because everything seemed to cater to Cali weather and styles (short pants, ugh!)? Maybe they need to hire some more regionally and nationally diverse developers. Including age diverse so we can have actual activities and bring back some of the fun aspects of previous games. I'm not saying they haven't put some good stuff in the game, or that all DLC has been lacking, because there are definitely things that I think have been done beautifully. But that base game is where the failure is. Skimping on Sim personalities, completely skipping the entirety of a Fear emotion and Sim fears altogether, cookie-cutter Sims, no memories, non-flaws, missing consequences, excessive happiness, etc.... no matter what they add, if they don't fix these things, people are going to continue to create boredom threads because the foundation of the game falls short.
Catering to the young crowd may be successful and good for them now, but by the end of Sims 4, that young crowd will be older, and looking for more meaningful gameplay. As will the rest of us "core" players. If they don't produce it, they won't be able to match those profit numbers that they need so badly. Because if the game can't even hold the attention of new Simmers now, after four and a half years, and even Game Changers are getting bored and playing previous iterations, it certainly won't in the future if they don't step it up.
Yes, I agree with you as they are looking at an different generation now as those they are looking at now have different tastes and do not know what it was like back in the day and today it is more about eye candy and not enough substance and I come from the day when EA as well as Maxis was just starting out and believe me EA as well as Maxis was way different back then compared to today for at some point it is sad to what has come of them today Imho. But is not the company itself but the people who changes and therefore the company changes you can look at their motto now and it is no longer challenge everything for to me there is nothing to challenge. What Sims series is changing into is more of an Tablet/Ipad game setting even if available for PC. In an way I expected this to happen as each sequel is produced it becomes more watered down as time moves on. Sims series need more robust themes with very good features and also thinking out the box like an theme with Sims living on other planets with other aliens and thier wacky way of living just as an start or example for they already have aliens and can take it an step further. I am at an point now as an gamer who plays other games I could care less if it makes it or go down the tubes as I seen other games that was just as great as the Sims go down and the gaming platform will just keep on trucking.
In a few days it will be June. We are already almost three months into their new business cycle, which began in April, they have three months left to release the promised EP, GP and Stuff pack which Lyndsay said they would be releasing. Either they can wiggle their noses and build three packs within six months or this is gonna be left over stuff they have thrown together to sell as separate packs. I really dread to see what they plan on releasing by the end of Sept. when we can't even get a bug fix for May. Think about it, they have stated three new packs by Oct. 1st. I'm not believing they will have any depth to them at all but more rush jobs.
That's not how packs are built, though, according to past information. Many concepts are started way in advance, sometimes years, of the estimated release, and features of several different packs plus free content can be worked on at the same time. They don't wait until one is finished to begin work on the next, and they don't even do it quarter by quarter or by fiscal year. They have approximately 200 developers for Sims 4 working on many things at once. This is most likely why a Sims game gains momentum in its later years, because as time goes on, more things come to fruition.
That doesn't mean the packs are automatically going to be wonderful, of course. But if an expansion is announced to release in June, that means it's been worked on at least since Seasons released because they've stated it takes (on average) about a year to create an expansion, six to eight months for a game pack, and three or four (I think) for a stuff pack. I believe they also said that sometimes they will shift people around to put more focus into an upcoming release if they think it needs more work. But we had the same lull this time last year, right before Seasons came out, so this really isn't anything new.
I guess we'll see soon enough, maybe even an announcement this week, with EA Play coming up soon, and if the rumors of a tropical expansion are true. If they put ocean swimming in the game, it will make a bunch of people happy, anyway.
I know how it works, but c'mon, you think they all have time to do a proper beta test when they are supposed to be releasing three packs within the next three months? Lyndsay @ MM is the one who said there would be three packs released in this quarter and in June we will be in the third month of that quarter. So, that's a lot of testing to do to get three packs out in three months. We didn't even get a bug fix for May..so no, it doesn't look like chewing gum and building packs can all work at the same time.
ETA: And no the EP hasn't been worked on since Seasons,...GF is an EP not a GP so no, it won't have taken a year as you say, since GF was released after Seasons and another is expected soon. (Or at least she said three packs by Oct.)
Lindsay did not say this quarter, she said in the next six months.
And I think you are misinformed as to how packs are created because there has been a lot of discussion about it and questions answered by the delevopers, which is where I have gotten my information. Cats and Dogs alone took over two years to create, I think they said about three. A lot depends on what kind of systems they work on, what features they include, and if the game engine needs to be changed for it. So yes, it takes on average a year to make an EP, so that means that features in Get Famous were being worked on even before Seasons came out, possibly even before Cats and Dogs came out. Like I said, they have stated several times that they are constantly working on many things at once, and multiple packs at a time. This means that Sims 4 content takes a long time to create. There was tons of development info shared when the Laundry Day stuff pack was being created. I assure you, I don't make this stuff up, I am passing on information that was shared with us because I pay attention to that stuff, lol.
The fiscal year ends next March. They were supposed to release 20 DLC. Two months of that fiscal year is just about over. June will be the third month of the fiscal year. Lyndsay said three packs in the next six months..sorry, I thought she said that last month, but it was just May when she said that right? O.k. It still winds up having to release three packs by Nov. instead of Oct. Take away a month or two, same difference as what I said.