like in TS3:WA there are egyptian builds in irl they were built by israelite slaves
The pyramids were built by Egyptians, mostly farmers who worked as wage laborers during the Nile flood season.
Lol this is like saying black slaves in US were paid by their white slave owners... they were definitely enslaved. I didnt mention the famous pyramids specifically but they did use slave labor of Semites in Egypt. Every culture has a backstory.
Post edited by StrawberryYogurt on
The Sims has currently lost its identity. Bring it back for TS5
I agree that removing bowing and shrines from the Japan expansion is racist and offensive.
I lived in Japan for a few years. Bowing is NOT a religious thing. It's a way to show politeness. They bow instead of shaking hands. They bow to everybody, all the time. It's a way of saying "hello", "nice to meet you", "thank you", or "excuse me". They bow at Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines because bowing is how they show respect, to anybody and anything, not because of some religious thing. The Korean kids that went to my school in Japan bowed too, because that's what people do in Japan.
When my characters meet friends in Windenburg, they kiss each other on both cheeks. I don't make them do it. They just do, because it's Windenburg. I want them to bow when they meet people in Mt. Komorebi. I'm afraid to buy the new expansion, because I'm afraid they censored it so much that it'll make me mad.
The problem is there is a very strong anti-Japan racism among many people in North and South Korea, and they want to abolish anything that is even remotely Japanese. It's vindictive and racist. WWII was almost a century ago. The people who were alive then were little children at the time, and are now in their 80s or older. The Japanese of WWII were brainwashed by a fascist military regime. The people of modern Japan are extremely polite, selfless, liberal, and pacifistic; and they look down on the actions of military Japan. Why should they be prejudiced against for things they had nothing to do with?
My best friend was born in Korea, and she LOVES Japan, and says the people there are much nicer than the people in her home country of Korea. (She says Koreans tend to be rude and pushy, especially the old women.) I figure she's just being harsh on them, but lately the anti-Japan racism and "No Japan" bs coming out of Korea is really starting to offend me and make me dislike Korea.
My niece is half Filipino, and she used to love KPop (Korean pop music) and was fascinated by Korean culture. But now she hates Koreans, because they attacked a Filipino singer over a tattoo with Rising Sun influences, and even attacking the country of the Philippines itself. Now a lot of Filipinos are hating Korea over it, and say that Koreans are racists.
If a religious object is included and interactable, the interactions shouldn't exclude the proper use.
Is what you're saying, if they don't include instruction on how to interact ( and or the proper interactions itself ) with the religious objects properly it is offensive to the culture who has and uses that religious object ?
And that the pressure was put on EA to remove religious object or interaction to it because they failed to provide the proper instructions on how to interact with the object ?
Correct me if I'm wrong, just trying to understand this whole situation. Feel sad we can't just accept each other and the cultures we come from in this world.
Boy do I miss the good ole days when Sims was about Sims. Yes it simulated life but there was still a Sim quirkiness about the game. Now we have to have the right skins, the right pronouns, the right hair, the right shrine worship...
I have to admit, that I am getting tired of it. As an African American, I would like better skin tones but at this point I wish they would just make a good game. You know when I played sims 1 and 2, I was having a grand time not thinking about skins, hair, pronouns etc. Yes I had cc for skin and hair which was good enough for me. I wasn't focused on it so much because I was actually having a good time PLAYING. Now that we have so many people in CAS and never playing the game, there is so much focus on stuff that quite frankly would not be as important if the game was more fun. You hear that EA. Forget the inclusive business and make the game more fun.
Kind of agree with you. Most people play games to get away from real life, now it feels like everyone wants to bring real life into the game. Can we just let it be a game please ? Playing to forget is a thing, and when the real world starts creeping into the game, that's when the game gets lost as in no one wants to play it anymore, and any fun it could've been goes with it.
I and my friends rather have gotten used to play without any Asian American Dolls for ages. We know people insist on anything they want, and it’s simply impossible to add everything to the game. We’ve been satisfied with the way The Sims was somehow. At least, we’ve never complained about that.
But suddenly EA picked up our religion, culture, life style this time. Sure, we were glad at first. But EA suddenly changed their mind like “On the second thought, this is uglier than what we thought. Let’s chop off like this. Here, this is beautiful now.” It was denial of the original way. That’s why we started backlash. I think “the game which lacks our contents” and “the game which once denied our way” are different. Now, we have to face EA’s message “We are inclusive without you!” every time we play The Sims 4. We were kicked out from the community and I feel the same misery in the real society as a minority. I’m just sad.
I for one am sorry the Japanese community feels that way, and look forward to EA clearing the air, and making it up to you.
I don't know a lot about the various Asian cultures, but what little bit I do know, I respect a lot.
I hope sometime soon this perceived rejection will be denied by EA and the record set straight so you can continue to play the games without feeling reproach.
This might sound a bit odd, but I hope you'll hear me out. (Sorry for the long post).
I think part of the issue might be that the Sims wants to include culture but like... only just. If a Korean simmer wants to make a Korean sim in a world remotely familiar to Korea, they now had to bow at shrines, something that feels bad due to how it was forced on them during occupation. I totally understand that. Equally, now Japanese players who want to make a Japanese sim engage in a piece of Japanese culture can't. I don't think that's fair and I'd be frustrated too.
I think a lot of this would be solved if the Sims 4 stopped making worlds that read as American and actually did research to engage with a variety of cultures, or if they just stuck to doing solely American inspired things. I think players are forced to care a lot more about their representation when you basically get one shot at it in the game and it's usually bungled.
Like, as a non-American, so few worlds actually read as anything but American. I'm Scottish, and hence British via being in the UK, and Britechester was clearly meant to be inspired by the UK except...? No stoves in dorms, you have to pay fees in a way that reads as American, and no traditional parts of Scottish, Welsh, English, or Northern Irish universities were included. The two univesities thing was super foreign to the UK audience and even in the world you couldn't engage with "normal" parts of culture here, like building two houses sharing a wall that aren't on the same plot. If I remember correctly, the Sims team admitted they had no idea all of this made it read as American.
I've never, ever been sad that something that read as very general British or Scottish wasn't in the other games because I just enjoyed the Americana of it all, but I do feel sad about it in the Sims 4, because their one attempt at something close to mine was completely inaccurate and in that way, I totally get why Korean simmers were frustrated. They don't have anything close to Korean and it is hard to not be frustrated the one Asian world has caused upsets with their culture. I still don't think it's fair to have demanded it to be removed because the game wasn't trying to depict Korea, but I do get the frustration at the core.
And I don't think the Sims team is aware of how easy it would be to expand the cultures included! Evergreen Harbor easily could have been Swedish, given that Sweden is known for being eco-friendly, having the Northern Lights, and having evergreens. Britechester easily could have been a far more authentic look at the UK (and ideally, one specific country within it to avoid historically awkward conflation). Why couldn't San Myshuno have been Tokyo themed, leaving the snow themed pack to represent another culture?
What if I'm from Tunisia and want to build in a place that looks like home, where do I build? What about if I'm Russian? Or Indian? Or Filipino? Or South African?
I guess I'm trying to say that I think they're talking a half ***ed approach and you just can't do that with culture. They need to commit to doing a variety of cultures well or they need to stick to being America (and considering they cannot realistically manage every culture on earth, I know what I'd encourage them towards). If we only expected America we wouldn't be frustrated at things being so American. If they depicted more cultures far better we wouldn't be upset we aren't depicted and wouldn't be upset that other depictions don't work for us and wouldn't be upset they did such a bad job.
I for one am sorry the Japanese community feels that way, and look forward to EA clearing the air, and making it up to you.
I don't know a lot about the various Asian cultures, but what little bit I do know, I respect a lot.
I hope sometime soon this perceived rejection will be denied by EA and the record set straight so you can continue to play the games without feeling reproach.
Most people play games to get away from real life, now it feels like everyone wants to bring real life into the game. Can we just let it be a game please ? Playing to forget is a thing, and when the real world starts creeping into the game, that's when the game gets lost as in no one wants to play it anymore, and any fun it could've been goes with it.
I agree with you. I grew up in the largest Koreatown in Japan, so I've seen a lot of disputes between South Koreans and Japanese. When EA supported those anti-Japanese people, I felt like the issues and the negative energy of hatred in the real world invaded one of my favorite games. My friends, including South Koreans living in Japan, and I thought "Even in a game? Really?"
The following is a quote from the related news article. I hope this would help you understand the situation better.
"The Sims 4 has confirmed changes will be made to the upcoming Snowy Escape pack, following concerns raised by Korean fans.
Snowy Escape was unveiled earlier this week as the tenth Expansion Pack, with the official reveal trailer showing off the Japan-inspired world of Mt. Komorebi. Following this, a number of players pointed out two problematic moments.
In one shot, a Sim is seen bowing in front of a shrine. For many Koreans, this is a reminder of when the country was under Japanese rule from 1910 to 1945. During this period, shrine worship was enforced.
The second issue comes from one of the new clothing designs in the pack, with the imagery appearing similar to the controversial Japanese Rising Sun flag, which is associated with Japanese imperialism in Korea and China."
I think a lot of this would be solved if the Sims 4 stopped making worlds that read as American and actually did research to engage with a variety of cultures, or if they just stuck to doing solely American inspired things. I think players are forced to care a lot more about their representation when you basically get one shot at it in the game and it's usually bungled.
This is one of my main complaints about the game: It's too US-centric.
They really should be looking into hiring people with history degrees, who are local to other countries, as advisors on what to include, and what not to, to avoid stereotyping, and potentially offensive scenarios.
Like, as a non-American, so few worlds actually read as anything but American. I'm Scottish, and hence British via being in the UK, and Britechester was clearly meant to be inspired by the UK except...? No stoves in dorms, you have to pay fees in a way that reads as American, and no traditional parts of Scottish, Welsh, English, or Northern Irish universities were included. The two univesities thing was super foreign to the UK audience and even in the world you couldn't engage with "normal" parts of culture here, like building two houses sharing a wall that aren't on the same plot. If I remember correctly, the Sims team admitted they had no idea all of this made it read as American.
I hate the way they do universities.
They too, are too US-Centric. The developers really need to look into the university experience of cultures outside of the US.
I will admit that they did it a little bit better this time around, by not forcing your sims to move onto campus to attend uni. I have so many friends who completed uni while living in their family home, or in share houses that were nowhere near campus. On campus dorm living is mostly only the experience of rural and international students, and the few who attend from a different city.
but I do feel sad about it in the Sims 4, because their one attempt at something close to mine was completely inaccurate and in that way, I totally get why Korean simmers were frustrated. They don't have anything close to Korean and it is hard to not be frustrated the one Asian world has caused upsets with their culture.
It makes me wonder how Americanised that one Asian-esque world is.
Non-American things are often treated like an exotic plaything, it's stereotypical, and fetishised.
And I don't think the Sims team is aware of how easy it would be to expand the cultures included! Evergreen Harbor easily could have been Swedish, given that Sweden is known for being eco-friendly, having the Northern Lights, and having evergreens. Britechester easily could have been a far more authentic look at the UK (and ideally, one specific country within it to avoid historically awkward conflation). Why couldn't San Myshuno have been Tokyo themed, leaving the snow themed pack to represent another culture?
It would have been interesting to have the snow themed pack with an Australian theme.
We have mountains, we have ski resorts, there is snow... in winter.
The rest of the time, it could have been a bit The Man From Snowy River
Ooh, look! Snow!
They need to commit to doing a variety of cultures well or they need to stick to being America (and considering they cannot realistically manage every culture on earth, I know what I'd encourage them towards).
I think they need to avoid any particular cultures, even their own.
They need to generalise more, and blur the boundaries.
They should never have done 'a Japanese' world. It should have been a north eastern Asian world, or a south eastern Asian world, or a central Asian world. Something less specific.
They could to a Scandinavian world, and not be specific to any one culture in the region. Or a North African world, or a west African world, or a Mediterranean world. They will never get any particular culture, other than their own, right. But generalising a region, rather than a specific culture, they would have a better chance of not doing things so badly.
To be fair when Will White made this game.It was meant to be a parody American tv culture.This is not saying I'm not up for more foreign worlds.Or any other cultures.Still the game is made in America! So most of it is going to base on the Usa.
To be fair when Will White made this game.It was meant to be a parody American tv culture.This is not saying I'm not up for more foreign worlds.Or any other cultures.Still the game is made in America! So most of it is going to base on the Usa.
Something tells me that regardless of this fact of Sims4 being a fantasy world, someone at EA failed to do the proper research.
You can search for my builds with EA Account ID: MASTERDARKWINGZ
No longer taking build requests/questions, sorry.
They need to generalise more, and blur the boundaries.
They should never have done 'a Japanese' world. It should have been a north eastern Asian world, or a south eastern Asian world, or a central Asian world. Something less specific.
Interesting point, I'm inclined to agree. I have doubts about their ability to choose to do so (they are probably being pushed to do it for marketing reasons more than anything else) but yeah, I mean, they as americans, probably having spent the majority of their life within in a single city or two, are going to have a hard time trying to do justice to any specific culture... even cultures within the US that are beyond their little bubble of experience.
On the other hand, if you get too general, you can get accused of treating culture as an aesthetic rather than representing its specific attributes. But it seems like that's already happening anyway. :shrug: Part of I think just comes down to the fact that this is a very specific game with a specific rating and tone. So how can you represent any culture or peoples accurately when your premise is so off-the-wall? Some people desire realism, but the game rating and tone holds them back from ever embracing it, truly.
I don't remember if this is just based on analysis of gameplay or ever been confirmed as such, but I think some have at least argued that the sims franchise is somewhat of a parody of the suburban 'consumer' culture. Which would be some deep irony considering how much of a cash cow it is now. But that's neither here nor there, the reason I bring this up is because if that kind of thing is (whether intentionally or not) directing the heart of the franchise, then by nature it can't properly represent other cultures, no matter how well researched. To do so would require creating fundamentally different versions of the game. Instead what you'd get—and I think it could be argued, this is what we have gotten multiple times in the sims 4—is some pieces of another culture atop the layer of suburban 'consumer' culture. Which is never going to feel right for people who live the actual cultures and have a drastically different kind of experience going on... even if they have some similarities, there are going to be subtle or drastic differences that make it seem like a strange mashup of cultures rather than a nod to their culture.
Edit: Just realized Horrorgirl6 already made a similar point above lol.
On the other hand, if you get too general, you can get accused of treating culture as an aesthetic rather than representing its specific attributes. But it seems like that's already happening anyway. :shrug: Part of I think just comes down to the fact that this is a very specific game with a specific rating and tone. So how can you represent any culture or peoples accurately when your premise is so off-the-wall? Some people desire realism, but the game rating and tone holds them back from ever embracing it, truly.
The problem is that the Japanese audience already sees Snowy Escape's shrines as a paid capitalist object and offensive with the current interaction.
Meanwhile, Korea has been known to censor Japanese culture references.
It's as if the pre-established Sims 4 Sulani "culture" and respecting Gnomes slipped developer's minds.
It doesn't matter if Windenburg was a successful culture merge as far as architecture went.
There really is no solid excuse here that EA can give, and the current solution doesn't sit well with the Japanese audience.
"Shrines are meant to be a place of respect, not a curiosity." -Kotaku article linked somewhere in thread
You can search for my builds with EA Account ID: MASTERDARKWINGZ
No longer taking build requests/questions, sorry.
The problem is that the Japanese audience already sees Snowy Escape's shrines as a paid capitalist object and offensive with the current interaction.
Meanwhile, Korea has been known to censor Japanese culture references.
It's as if the pre-established Sims 4 Sulani "culture" and respecting Gnomes slipped developer's minds.
It doesn't matter if Windenburg was a successful culture merge as far as architecture went.
There really is no solid excuse here that EA can give, and the current solution doesn't sit well with the Japanese audience.
"Shrines are meant to be a place of respect, not a curiosity." -Kotaku article linked somewhere in thread
Well if it seems like I'm giving them an out, I'm definitely not trying to. I don't think their efforts to represent other cultures are sincerely motivated to begin with. The personal views and desires of individual devs notwithstanding, the overall direction of a company like this is not in the interest of representation. It's in the interest of money. And my saying that is not meant to be some sort of "well that's just how it is, so people have to accept it." The point is that there is no pro-social authenticity to be found in their aims as a publicly traded company serving the interests of shareholders. "We aim to be inclusive" should rightfully be criticized, but should probably be understood clearly as something that was never going to be real to begin with... and understood as something people can pressure them with in terms of their brand and how it's viewed, but not as something they will feel any real shame or guilt about on a corporate level.
I'm probably saying stuff here that has already been said, but I wanted to make it clear where I stand. Musings about cultures and the ability to represent them authentically in a game like this aside, I don't have any illusions they are even capable as a company of representing these things properly. As you indicate, the very nature of their business, in some sense, makes it offensive. Authentic representation in art arguably requires, at the offset, a certain degree of authentic intention (not to mention the room to understand what is being represented without it being squeezed through things like target audience and marketing) and that is something fundamentally incompatible with their cynical profit-driven aims.
I'm sure I could say more, but I'm probably already riding the line of what kind of stuff is acceptable to talk about on these forums.
I for one am sorry the Japanese community feels that way, and look forward to EA clearing the air, and making it up to you.
I don't know a lot about the various Asian cultures, but what little bit I do know, I respect a lot.
I hope sometime soon this perceived rejection will be denied by EA and the record set straight so you can continue to play the games without feeling reproach.
Most people play games to get away from real life, now it feels like everyone wants to bring real life into the game. Can we just let it be a game please ? Playing to forget is a thing, and when the real world starts creeping into the game, that's when the game gets lost as in no one wants to play it anymore, and any fun it could've been goes with it.
I agree with you. I grew up in the largest Koreatown in Japan, so I've seen a lot of disputes between South Koreans and Japanese. When EA supported those anti-Japanese people, I felt like the issues and the negative energy of hatred in the real world invaded one of my favorite games. My friends, including South Koreans living in Japan, and I thought "Even in a game? Really?"
The following is a quote from the related news article. I hope this would help you understand the situation better.
"The Sims 4 has confirmed changes will be made to the upcoming Snowy Escape pack, following concerns raised by Korean fans.
Snowy Escape was unveiled earlier this week as the tenth Expansion Pack, with the official reveal trailer showing off the Japan-inspired world of Mt. Komorebi. Following this, a number of players pointed out two problematic moments.
In one shot, a Sim is seen bowing in front of a shrine. For many Koreans, this is a reminder of when the country was under Japanese rule from 1910 to 1945. During this period, shrine worship was enforced.
The second issue comes from one of the new clothing designs in the pack, with the imagery appearing similar to the controversial Japanese Rising Sun flag, which is associated with Japanese imperialism in Korea and China."
Yes that helps me understand, thank you.
I'm with a few other people in the way I think a little more research could've been done before including the religious part, and all of this could've been avoided because its part of the history of the two countries, so close together.
Of course if they are separated into their own two countries, there would be some offences, otherwise they'd still be one country. History is well documented.
If EA decides in the future to let the game produce a town or country that is representative of another culture, I hope they will spend a little more time in this area, and why not make a Japanese inspired town along with some others.
The idea of that is exciting to me, and it would be real nice if some animations true to their cultures were included.
We could learn about their cultures that way, and it would be fun imo.
To be fair when Will White made this game.It was meant to be a parody American tv culture.This is not saying I'm not up for more foreign worlds.Or any other cultures.Still the game is made in America! So most of it is going to base on the Usa.
Sorry if this wasn't clear in my post, but I'm not against this approach! My issue is that right now they say they want to be diverse and yet they frequently bungle any and all attempts to represent cultures. If they can't do it right they should avoid it completely.
I disagree with the idea of just keeping the worlds as vague as possible, I think. Some countries/areas it's very easy to combine, others... less so. Generic Japan/China/Korea pack could easily cause upset if not handled well with Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans on board, due to the country's shared histories. Another example more personal to me is that the frequent misuse of British as meaning "English" leads all "British" representation in games to be lackluster for Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, and if you don't step carefully with generic-British rep you end up insulting a lot of people. Considering the team didn't even Google what British universities were like (nevermind that each country in the UK does slightly different things here), I don't know that I trust their hypothetical vagueness to come off as intentional rather than ignorant. I hope that makes sense.
As I said, as a non-American I never used to be bothered by a lack of representation IRT world specifically as I was aware it was just an American simulator. I do think they're best to do that, do it well, and add in other cultures through the fact that America is so diverse, not only in landscape but in population. San Myshuno was pretty well received and I think it is a far safer approach.
I'm with a few other people in the way I think a little more research could've been done before including the religious part, and all of this could've been avoided because its part of the history of the two countries, so close together.
I agree. Honestly, I still think EA only did brief research to make the pack look good superficially. I think they didn't work with a native Japanese enough for the preparation, because if you were a Japanese, you could have sensed the risk of anti-Japanese sentiment. There are actually plenty of precedents in the game industry, too.
Of course if they are separated into their own two countries, there would be some offences, otherwise they'd still be one country. History is well documented.
I'm grateful that they have their own country now. South Korea has many strong points. I can't live without their healthy foods and cosmetics. I think they should be really proud of their advantages and stop wasting their time for barren sabotage.
If EA decides in the future to let the game produce a town or country that is representative of another culture, I hope they will spend a little more time in this area, and why not make a Japanese inspired town along with some others.
The idea of that is exciting to me, and it would be real nice if some animations true to their cultures were included.
We could learn about their cultures that way, and it would be fun imo.
Yes, it sounds great! I like others' cultures more than mine because it's boring for me. I personally think the most important thing isn't to represent ones accurately but to focus on the good or funny aspects of each one. Most of Japanese Simmers got offended this time because they couldn't feel any respect or love from EA's decision.
South Korea and Japan may have a bad relationship now, but in a small community like my multicultural home town, local people are trying to make the relationship better. Since EA supported those activists of extreme anti-Japanese thinking this time, South Korea may look like a group who are easily offended, Japan may look like the embodiment of ego, and the relationship may look worse. I really like your idea. I hope it will come true someday and change the situation.
I'm with a few other people in the way I think a little more research could've been done before including the religious part, and all of this could've been avoided because its part of the history of the two countries, so close together.
I agree. Honestly, I still think EA only did brief research to make the pack look good superficially. I think they didn't work with a native Japanese enough for the preparation, because if you were a Japanese, you could have sensed the risk of anti-Japanese sentiment. There are actually plenty of precedents in the game industry, too.)
They did say they consulted groups about the expansion before representing Japanese culture:
“It’s an authentic look at Japanese culture,” Nardone explains of the Expansion. “We consulted with some of our groups internally about that just to make sure we’re representing not only the setting, but also the Sims themselves, in a respectful and authentic way.”
Authenticity and representation are two of the key pillars The Sims 4 is now focused on, with new updates to skin tones and hair due to release before the end of the year.
“Something that’s important to us is being able to bring more of the lived experiences of our players into the game, giving them an opportunity to have something that they can connect with, have moments that are relevant for them, and be able to recreate more of not only their own lives, but the lives of people like them too,” Nardone says of the game’s renewed focus on representation.
Interesting they said they want people to be able to recreate more of their own lives and people like them and still end up with their stance on the controversy.
The Sims has currently lost its identity. Bring it back for TS5
They did say they consulted groups about the expansion before representing Japanese culture: ...
I know. I read the article but I still feel it's superficial.
It was superficial, they likely only consulted someone as incompetent as the Kinder Egg excuse.
Well, I've already given them plenty of solutions and profit potential in a more visible thread.
I'm not really going to complain much after they actually put in new skin tones like they promised.
Might take a few to four months for them to make Sulani and Gnome adaptations to the current (or future free) Shrine model.
You can search for my builds with EA Account ID: MASTERDARKWINGZ
No longer taking build requests/questions, sorry.
I'm just catching up on some discussions, including this one. I want to let you know that I locked this thread.
The conversation has taken multiple turns and went deep into a variety of topics including the history of certain cultures, slavery, and cancel culture in the real world. While these are all worthwhile and important conversations to get into, the Sims forum is not the best place for that: off-topic tangents like the ones in this thread are not ok and break our rules.
Should you wish to discuss The Sims and the inclusivity of this franchise specifically, please feel free to start a fresh thread and try to keep it on topic and in line with the forum rules.
Thank you,
EA_Lanna
New Simmers, take a moment to read through this thread.
The Help Center is hosted on Answers HQ. Check out EA_Mage's thread on why.
Please post all Sims 4 Bug Reports, Technical and Gameplay issues in the AHQ Sims 4 Section.
Comments
Lol this is like saying black slaves in US were paid by their white slave owners... they were definitely enslaved. I didnt mention the famous pyramids specifically but they did use slave labor of Semites in Egypt. Every culture has a backstory.
Personality,depth,humor,consequences,lore,customization.
I lived in Japan for a few years. Bowing is NOT a religious thing. It's a way to show politeness. They bow instead of shaking hands. They bow to everybody, all the time. It's a way of saying "hello", "nice to meet you", "thank you", or "excuse me". They bow at Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines because bowing is how they show respect, to anybody and anything, not because of some religious thing. The Korean kids that went to my school in Japan bowed too, because that's what people do in Japan.
When my characters meet friends in Windenburg, they kiss each other on both cheeks. I don't make them do it. They just do, because it's Windenburg. I want them to bow when they meet people in Mt. Komorebi. I'm afraid to buy the new expansion, because I'm afraid they censored it so much that it'll make me mad.
The problem is there is a very strong anti-Japan racism among many people in North and South Korea, and they want to abolish anything that is even remotely Japanese. It's vindictive and racist. WWII was almost a century ago. The people who were alive then were little children at the time, and are now in their 80s or older. The Japanese of WWII were brainwashed by a fascist military regime. The people of modern Japan are extremely polite, selfless, liberal, and pacifistic; and they look down on the actions of military Japan. Why should they be prejudiced against for things they had nothing to do with?
My best friend was born in Korea, and she LOVES Japan, and says the people there are much nicer than the people in her home country of Korea. (She says Koreans tend to be rude and pushy, especially the old women.) I figure she's just being harsh on them, but lately the anti-Japan racism and "No Japan" bs coming out of Korea is really starting to offend me and make me dislike Korea.
My niece is half Filipino, and she used to love KPop (Korean pop music) and was fascinated by Korean culture. But now she hates Koreans, because they attacked a Filipino singer over a tattoo with Rising Sun influences, and even attacking the country of the Philippines itself. Now a lot of Filipinos are hating Korea over it, and say that Koreans are racists.
Is what you're saying, if they don't include instruction on how to interact ( and or the proper interactions itself ) with the religious objects properly it is offensive to the culture who has and uses that religious object ?
And that the pressure was put on EA to remove religious object or interaction to it because they failed to provide the proper instructions on how to interact with the object ?
Correct me if I'm wrong, just trying to understand this whole situation. Feel sad we can't just accept each other and the cultures we come from in this world.
Kind of agree with you. Most people play games to get away from real life, now it feels like everyone wants to bring real life into the game. Can we just let it be a game please ? Playing to forget is a thing, and when the real world starts creeping into the game, that's when the game gets lost as in no one wants to play it anymore, and any fun it could've been goes with it.
I for one am sorry the Japanese community feels that way, and look forward to EA clearing the air, and making it up to you.
I don't know a lot about the various Asian cultures, but what little bit I do know, I respect a lot.
I hope sometime soon this perceived rejection will be denied by EA and the record set straight so you can continue to play the games without feeling reproach.
I think part of the issue might be that the Sims wants to include culture but like... only just. If a Korean simmer wants to make a Korean sim in a world remotely familiar to Korea, they now had to bow at shrines, something that feels bad due to how it was forced on them during occupation. I totally understand that. Equally, now Japanese players who want to make a Japanese sim engage in a piece of Japanese culture can't. I don't think that's fair and I'd be frustrated too.
I think a lot of this would be solved if the Sims 4 stopped making worlds that read as American and actually did research to engage with a variety of cultures, or if they just stuck to doing solely American inspired things. I think players are forced to care a lot more about their representation when you basically get one shot at it in the game and it's usually bungled.
Like, as a non-American, so few worlds actually read as anything but American. I'm Scottish, and hence British via being in the UK, and Britechester was clearly meant to be inspired by the UK except...? No stoves in dorms, you have to pay fees in a way that reads as American, and no traditional parts of Scottish, Welsh, English, or Northern Irish universities were included. The two univesities thing was super foreign to the UK audience and even in the world you couldn't engage with "normal" parts of culture here, like building two houses sharing a wall that aren't on the same plot. If I remember correctly, the Sims team admitted they had no idea all of this made it read as American.
I've never, ever been sad that something that read as very general British or Scottish wasn't in the other games because I just enjoyed the Americana of it all, but I do feel sad about it in the Sims 4, because their one attempt at something close to mine was completely inaccurate and in that way, I totally get why Korean simmers were frustrated. They don't have anything close to Korean and it is hard to not be frustrated the one Asian world has caused upsets with their culture. I still don't think it's fair to have demanded it to be removed because the game wasn't trying to depict Korea, but I do get the frustration at the core.
And I don't think the Sims team is aware of how easy it would be to expand the cultures included! Evergreen Harbor easily could have been Swedish, given that Sweden is known for being eco-friendly, having the Northern Lights, and having evergreens. Britechester easily could have been a far more authentic look at the UK (and ideally, one specific country within it to avoid historically awkward conflation). Why couldn't San Myshuno have been Tokyo themed, leaving the snow themed pack to represent another culture?
What if I'm from Tunisia and want to build in a place that looks like home, where do I build? What about if I'm Russian? Or Indian? Or Filipino? Or South African?
I guess I'm trying to say that I think they're talking a half ***ed approach and you just can't do that with culture. They need to commit to doing a variety of cultures well or they need to stick to being America (and considering they cannot realistically manage every culture on earth, I know what I'd encourage them towards). If we only expected America we wouldn't be frustrated at things being so American. If they depicted more cultures far better we wouldn't be upset we aren't depicted and wouldn't be upset that other depictions don't work for us and wouldn't be upset they did such a bad job.
Oh, thank you for your kind words
I agree with you. I grew up in the largest Koreatown in Japan, so I've seen a lot of disputes between South Koreans and Japanese. When EA supported those anti-Japanese people, I felt like the issues and the negative energy of hatred in the real world invaded one of my favorite games. My friends, including South Koreans living in Japan, and I thought "Even in a game? Really?"
The following is a quote from the related news article. I hope this would help you understand the situation better.
"The Sims 4 has confirmed changes will be made to the upcoming Snowy Escape pack, following concerns raised by Korean fans.
Snowy Escape was unveiled earlier this week as the tenth Expansion Pack, with the official reveal trailer showing off the Japan-inspired world of Mt. Komorebi. Following this, a number of players pointed out two problematic moments.
In one shot, a Sim is seen bowing in front of a shrine. For many Koreans, this is a reminder of when the country was under Japanese rule from 1910 to 1945. During this period, shrine worship was enforced.
The second issue comes from one of the new clothing designs in the pack, with the imagery appearing similar to the controversial Japanese Rising Sun flag, which is associated with Japanese imperialism in Korea and China."
They really should be looking into hiring people with history degrees, who are local to other countries, as advisors on what to include, and what not to, to avoid stereotyping, and potentially offensive scenarios.
I hate the way they do universities.
They too, are too US-Centric. The developers really need to look into the university experience of cultures outside of the US.
I will admit that they did it a little bit better this time around, by not forcing your sims to move onto campus to attend uni. I have so many friends who completed uni while living in their family home, or in share houses that were nowhere near campus. On campus dorm living is mostly only the experience of rural and international students, and the few who attend from a different city.
It makes me wonder how Americanised that one Asian-esque world is.
Non-American things are often treated like an exotic plaything, it's stereotypical, and fetishised.
It would have been interesting to have the snow themed pack with an Australian theme.
We have mountains, we have ski resorts, there is snow... in winter.
The rest of the time, it could have been a bit The Man From Snowy River
Ooh, look! Snow!
I think they need to avoid any particular cultures, even their own.
They need to generalise more, and blur the boundaries.
They should never have done 'a Japanese' world. It should have been a north eastern Asian world, or a south eastern Asian world, or a central Asian world. Something less specific.
They could to a Scandinavian world, and not be specific to any one culture in the region. Or a North African world, or a west African world, or a Mediterranean world. They will never get any particular culture, other than their own, right. But generalising a region, rather than a specific culture, they would have a better chance of not doing things so badly.
(The 3:45 mark)
TLDR: Banned because Korean and Japanese relations caused bans of references to Japanese culture. Even armor.
Something tells me that regardless of this fact of Sims4 being a fantasy world, someone at EA failed to do the proper research.
No longer taking build requests/questions, sorry.
Interesting point, I'm inclined to agree. I have doubts about their ability to choose to do so (they are probably being pushed to do it for marketing reasons more than anything else) but yeah, I mean, they as americans, probably having spent the majority of their life within in a single city or two, are going to have a hard time trying to do justice to any specific culture... even cultures within the US that are beyond their little bubble of experience.
On the other hand, if you get too general, you can get accused of treating culture as an aesthetic rather than representing its specific attributes. But it seems like that's already happening anyway. :shrug: Part of I think just comes down to the fact that this is a very specific game with a specific rating and tone. So how can you represent any culture or peoples accurately when your premise is so off-the-wall? Some people desire realism, but the game rating and tone holds them back from ever embracing it, truly.
I don't remember if this is just based on analysis of gameplay or ever been confirmed as such, but I think some have at least argued that the sims franchise is somewhat of a parody of the suburban 'consumer' culture. Which would be some deep irony considering how much of a cash cow it is now. But that's neither here nor there, the reason I bring this up is because if that kind of thing is (whether intentionally or not) directing the heart of the franchise, then by nature it can't properly represent other cultures, no matter how well researched. To do so would require creating fundamentally different versions of the game. Instead what you'd get—and I think it could be argued, this is what we have gotten multiple times in the sims 4—is some pieces of another culture atop the layer of suburban 'consumer' culture. Which is never going to feel right for people who live the actual cultures and have a drastically different kind of experience going on... even if they have some similarities, there are going to be subtle or drastic differences that make it seem like a strange mashup of cultures rather than a nod to their culture.
Edit: Just realized Horrorgirl6 already made a similar point above lol.
The problem is that the Japanese audience already sees Snowy Escape's shrines as a paid capitalist object and offensive with the current interaction.
Meanwhile, Korea has been known to censor Japanese culture references.
It's as if the pre-established Sims 4 Sulani "culture" and respecting Gnomes slipped developer's minds.
It doesn't matter if Windenburg was a successful culture merge as far as architecture went.
There really is no solid excuse here that EA can give, and the current solution doesn't sit well with the Japanese audience.
"Shrines are meant to be a place of respect, not a curiosity." -Kotaku article linked somewhere in thread
No longer taking build requests/questions, sorry.
Well if it seems like I'm giving them an out, I'm definitely not trying to. I don't think their efforts to represent other cultures are sincerely motivated to begin with. The personal views and desires of individual devs notwithstanding, the overall direction of a company like this is not in the interest of representation. It's in the interest of money. And my saying that is not meant to be some sort of "well that's just how it is, so people have to accept it." The point is that there is no pro-social authenticity to be found in their aims as a publicly traded company serving the interests of shareholders. "We aim to be inclusive" should rightfully be criticized, but should probably be understood clearly as something that was never going to be real to begin with... and understood as something people can pressure them with in terms of their brand and how it's viewed, but not as something they will feel any real shame or guilt about on a corporate level.
I'm probably saying stuff here that has already been said, but I wanted to make it clear where I stand. Musings about cultures and the ability to represent them authentically in a game like this aside, I don't have any illusions they are even capable as a company of representing these things properly. As you indicate, the very nature of their business, in some sense, makes it offensive. Authentic representation in art arguably requires, at the offset, a certain degree of authentic intention (not to mention the room to understand what is being represented without it being squeezed through things like target audience and marketing) and that is something fundamentally incompatible with their cynical profit-driven aims.
I'm sure I could say more, but I'm probably already riding the line of what kind of stuff is acceptable to talk about on these forums.
Yes that helps me understand, thank you.
I'm with a few other people in the way I think a little more research could've been done before including the religious part, and all of this could've been avoided because its part of the history of the two countries, so close together.
Of course if they are separated into their own two countries, there would be some offences, otherwise they'd still be one country. History is well documented.
If EA decides in the future to let the game produce a town or country that is representative of another culture, I hope they will spend a little more time in this area, and why not make a Japanese inspired town along with some others.
The idea of that is exciting to me, and it would be real nice if some animations true to their cultures were included.
We could learn about their cultures that way, and it would be fun imo.
Sorry if this wasn't clear in my post, but I'm not against this approach! My issue is that right now they say they want to be diverse and yet they frequently bungle any and all attempts to represent cultures. If they can't do it right they should avoid it completely.
I disagree with the idea of just keeping the worlds as vague as possible, I think. Some countries/areas it's very easy to combine, others... less so. Generic Japan/China/Korea pack could easily cause upset if not handled well with Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans on board, due to the country's shared histories. Another example more personal to me is that the frequent misuse of British as meaning "English" leads all "British" representation in games to be lackluster for Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, and if you don't step carefully with generic-British rep you end up insulting a lot of people. Considering the team didn't even Google what British universities were like (nevermind that each country in the UK does slightly different things here), I don't know that I trust their hypothetical vagueness to come off as intentional rather than ignorant. I hope that makes sense.
As I said, as a non-American I never used to be bothered by a lack of representation IRT world specifically as I was aware it was just an American simulator. I do think they're best to do that, do it well, and add in other cultures through the fact that America is so diverse, not only in landscape but in population. San Myshuno was pretty well received and I think it is a far safer approach.
I'm grateful that they have their own country now. South Korea has many strong points. I can't live without their healthy foods and cosmetics. I think they should be really proud of their advantages and stop wasting their time for barren sabotage.
Yes, it sounds great! I like others' cultures more than mine because it's boring for me. I personally think the most important thing isn't to represent ones accurately but to focus on the good or funny aspects of each one. Most of Japanese Simmers got offended this time because they couldn't feel any respect or love from EA's decision.
South Korea and Japan may have a bad relationship now, but in a small community like my multicultural home town, local people are trying to make the relationship better. Since EA supported those activists of extreme anti-Japanese thinking this time, South Korea may look like a group who are easily offended, Japan may look like the embodiment of ego, and the relationship may look worse. I really like your idea. I hope it will come true someday and change the situation.
They did say they consulted groups about the expansion before representing Japanese culture:
“It’s an authentic look at Japanese culture,” Nardone explains of the Expansion. “We consulted with some of our groups internally about that just to make sure we’re representing not only the setting, but also the Sims themselves, in a respectful and authentic way.”
Authenticity and representation are two of the key pillars The Sims 4 is now focused on, with new updates to skin tones and hair due to release before the end of the year.
“Something that’s important to us is being able to bring more of the lived experiences of our players into the game, giving them an opportunity to have something that they can connect with, have moments that are relevant for them, and be able to recreate more of not only their own lives, but the lives of people like them too,” Nardone says of the game’s renewed focus on representation.
https://www.gamebyte.com/the-sims-4-snowy-escape-self-care-culture-covid-19-an-interview-with-simgurugraham/
Interesting they said they want people to be able to recreate more of their own lives and people like them and still end up with their stance on the controversy.
Personality,depth,humor,consequences,lore,customization.
It was superficial, they likely only consulted someone as incompetent as the Kinder Egg excuse.
Well, I've already given them plenty of solutions and profit potential in a more visible thread.
I'm not really going to complain much after they actually put in new skin tones like they promised.
Might take a few to four months for them to make Sulani and Gnome adaptations to the current (or future free) Shrine model.
No longer taking build requests/questions, sorry.
I'm just catching up on some discussions, including this one. I want to let you know that I locked this thread.
The conversation has taken multiple turns and went deep into a variety of topics including the history of certain cultures, slavery, and cancel culture in the real world. While these are all worthwhile and important conversations to get into, the Sims forum is not the best place for that: off-topic tangents like the ones in this thread are not ok and break our rules.
Should you wish to discuss The Sims and the inclusivity of this franchise specifically, please feel free to start a fresh thread and try to keep it on topic and in line with the forum rules.
Thank you,
EA_Lanna