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Do they really ‘listen’?

Comments

  • vcosleyvcosley Posts: 872 Member
    I still like sims 3 better. I've had more problems with 4. Never had problems with 3 and I had mod . Sims 4 i have no mods and it still crashes. I dont like the graphics. There is not enough things for children to do. In 3 they had bikes, seesaws, treehouses. I had expected thing we had in 3 and 2 would be improves on not taken away. I don't know if anybody notices the duplicate items. The steps is one if you change them the same color some of them look alike. If you can size thing why are there different sizes of some pictures and paintings. That just takes up space. There is a duplicate hair style in the long hair. I don't remember so many patches in sims 3. I would love too play the game. Bit it is just boring too me and too many glitches. I do have all the packs because I've been a sims fan since sims 1, and I'm just greedy and still have hope. One more thing i wish sims could swim in the ocean. Well for now I will just build rather then play. It's relaxing. Happy Simming everyone
  • drake_mccartydrake_mccarty Posts: 6,053 Member
    IceyJ wrote: »
    JoAnne65 wrote: »
    IceyJ wrote: »
    JoAnne65 wrote: »
    Do they really ‘listen’?

    My personal experience says "Yes". I saw many TS3 and TS4 requests be fulfilled in The Sims 4.
    For example, the Ownable Business request (2010) has been posted since The Sims 3 era but was fulfilled by EP01 Get To Work in 2015.

    Now one of the problems is the time to develop it. For example, Toddler request in 2014 and patch released in 2017.

    When you request for something you shouldn't expect to see it before 3-5 years or the next sequel.

    There is nothing to do, just be patient.
    There was no plausible excuse whatsoever to make simmers wait for two and a half years for a life stage that the two predecessors had from the get go. Not even when you make a mental split. It was completely bananas people had to ‘request’ that in the first place. And that’s exactly where the frustration in this department comes from and the feeling ‘they aren’t listening’ (like I said before, I think they are, within their power and possibilities). The fact that it concerns too many things that are really strange to not have been included right away. This whole “hurray we are so grateful, terrain tools and the game is only four years old!!!!” oddity.

    No one had to request toddlers, toddlers were already coming so that's kind of a poor example. Most of us know by now that because they had to scrap the online features, the game wasn't ready at release and they simply didn't have time to make toddlers. As Graham said, they didn't want to shoehorn them in. So toddlers were held back in order to do them right. I'm glad they waitied. My only complaint was that they couldn't tell us that toddlers were coming.

    As for other things, there will always be features from previous games that we don't have yet, or may never get. Even if this game continues for another 5 years.
    You clearly weren’t around in the pre toddler era. Nobody knew toddlers would be coming, it was a big surprise to anyone. So yeah, people did feel they had to request it, especially since it was officially stated no toddlers was a considered decision, based on telemetry. “You didn’t play them, it’s your own fault we took them out.” That was the, almost literal, message. There was a huge topic back then, counting hundreds and hundreds of pages, filled with people asking for them. So many people asked for them, that other people became tired of it and couldn’t even stand the word toddler anymore. So the term t-word was introduced. People requested toddlers all right, telemetry apparently lied. Or - more likely - was interpreted the wrong way.

    Pools were planned, ghosts were planned, family tree was planned and I bet toddlers were planned too if enough people would ask. They were even in the coding. Who knows terrain tools were planned too. But fans didn’t know. They felt they had to beg for it and it created this strange atmosphere, where people are praising the creators now (I’ve even seen people declare they screamed and cried so I’m not in the least exaggerating) when they introduce features that were ‘just there’ in the past. And at the same time it leaves the community dissatisfied and suspicious. They are creating this atmosphere of hunger, lack. Then they deliver. It’s a strategy and it’s working. That doesn’t mean we have to like it or be ok with it.

    I've been around since the beginning of time. I'm not talking about how people felt, that's irrelevant. I'm talking about the fact that toddlers were already coming. Just because we weren't privy to that information, doesn't change anything. Of course none of us knew; that's not in dispute. EA simply couldn't tell us about them. So my point is, toddlers were already planned. It wasn't a situation where they wouldn't have come if not requested. And this was pretty much confirmed by a Guru at the time toddlers finally appeared. So you clearly weren't around when toddlers were released. ;)

    And here's what that official statement really meant (even though Rachel couldn't go into detail): They felt they had made the right decision at the time (to leave them out temporarily) because they didn't want to shoehorn them in. They honestly didn't believe it would cause as much backlash, since telemetry indicated otherwise. The 'You didn't play them so we took them out' mentality is what happens when simmers misinterpret statements and add the wrong assumptions. There's always a lot of that going on; simmers read something, take it the wrong way and then RUN with it. It would have been best if Rachel had kept quiet, since she couldn't explain further and it only made the situation worse.

    I remember when all the backlash about toddlers started, SimGuruRyan even commented for us to "Read between the lines." Hinting that we would get them eventually. It was removed, though, since they weren't allowed to tell us anything.

    Yo, don’t spill the facts if they aren’t actually facts. Toddlers probably weren’t immediately a priority for the studio who was trying to make the game more attractive in the short term so people would buy it. Toddlers were def not short-term it took over two years to add them. They also said whatever they needed to say to try and placate disgruntled players, it’s called mouth service and it ran rampant at Maxis back then. Also, please don’t stroke RF’s ego after all these years and the mess she made. It’s not like the worst thing she did was make that comment about toddlers, but let’s not pat her on the back for it either.
  • LeGardePourpreLeGardePourpre Posts: 11,169 Member
    edited April 2019
    @JoAnne65 wrote: »
    If I remember correctly rodents were part of Pets back in the day, I didn’t separately pay for them. Nor did I pay for pools and toddlers and terrain tools and ghosts and family trees (you really think we should be glad those things came for free and if so why?).

    As I said
    Sure they work hard but the goal is no longer to release a full game at once, just pieces throughout the year.
    @JoAnne65 wrote: »
    We’re not talking about content here (like retail or restaurants or farms), we’re talking about tools and life stages. They make you pay for content all right (and rightly so).

    It's not completely exact. Pool = Free, Toddler = Free, Terrain tool = Free...

    Are restaurant and retail in TS4 give you as much gameplay as The Sims 3 did... in fact there were no ownable restaurant or retail in the packs.
    Sure the Store team tried something, you had to pay more for this content.
    Post edited by LeGardePourpre on
  • IceyJIceyJ Posts: 4,385 Member
    edited April 2019
    @JoAnne65 You're moving the goal posts, here. No, how people felt at the time is not the whole point. Because my original statement was that using toddlers as an example of 'Do they listen'because we had to request them (and how long it subsequently took to get them) wasn't a good example because we didn't have to request them. I proceeded to explain why that wasn't a good example. We're not even talking about the same thing, so I'll leave you to it. B)
    Post edited by IceyJ on
  • IceyJIceyJ Posts: 4,385 Member
    edited April 2019
    One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that I realize that many who stayed with Sims 3 did so because of the vast differences between the two games. I am one of them. TS3 is still my favorite and I'm playing it right now. Just because the games are so different, doesn't make one or the other inferior. Was TS4 inferior at release? Yes, in my opinion, it absolutely was. But I feel it has caught up now in terms of free AND paid content so I can actually play it.

    @JoAnne65 The reason why people go over the moon for new colors, is because we understand that this game is like TS2 in that respect, so more swatches are always welcome. Yes, TS3 slays TS4 when it comes to that and many other details, but TS4 also slays TS3 in many other areas. I can't tell you how many frustrating limitations there are in TS3, that I am able to do easily in 4. Just as many limitations frustrate me about TS4, that I am able to do easily in 3. I've learned to accept that they are very different games, and I play them each accordingly.

    They've already told us that this game won't have CAST (or open world,) and the reason why. So yes, they are listening when they give us new colors.
    Post edited by IceyJ on
  • SimsersionSimsersion Posts: 51 Member
    Im sure they do usually. I have no doubt in my mind that we will see a University Expansion, seeing as it would bring in a huge revenue. In terms of other things though, one thing they could do to show they are listening is holding another poll once or twice to decide the next game packs (IE Laundry Day).
  • LeGardePourpreLeGardePourpre Posts: 11,169 Member
    edited April 2019
    Are they giving us what we want or what THEY WANT?

    Us ? I don't know.

    At least they are giving me what I want
    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/831600/the-sims-4-requests-fulfilled

    Moschino
    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/comment/14426323/#Comment_14426323
  • IceyJIceyJ Posts: 4,385 Member
    edited April 2019
    IceyJ wrote: »
    JoAnne65 wrote: »
    IceyJ wrote: »
    JoAnne65 wrote: »
    Do they really ‘listen’?

    My personal experience says "Yes". I saw many TS3 and TS4 requests be fulfilled in The Sims 4.
    For example, the Ownable Business request (2010) has been posted since The Sims 3 era but was fulfilled by EP01 Get To Work in 2015.

    Now one of the problems is the time to develop it. For example, Toddler request in 2014 and patch released in 2017.

    When you request for something you shouldn't expect to see it before 3-5 years or the next sequel.

    There is nothing to do, just be patient.
    There was no plausible excuse whatsoever to make simmers wait for two and a half years for a life stage that the two predecessors had from the get go. Not even when you make a mental split. It was completely bananas people had to ‘request’ that in the first place. And that’s exactly where the frustration in this department comes from and the feeling ‘they aren’t listening’ (like I said before, I think they are, within their power and possibilities). The fact that it concerns too many things that are really strange to not have been included right away. This whole “hurray we are so grateful, terrain tools and the game is only four years old!!!!” oddity.

    No one had to request toddlers, toddlers were already coming so that's kind of a poor example. Most of us know by now that because they had to scrap the online features, the game wasn't ready at release and they simply didn't have time to make toddlers. As Graham said, they didn't want to shoehorn them in. So toddlers were held back in order to do them right. I'm glad they waitied. My only complaint was that they couldn't tell us that toddlers were coming.

    As for other things, there will always be features from previous games that we don't have yet, or may never get. Even if this game continues for another 5 years.
    You clearly weren’t around in the pre toddler era. Nobody knew toddlers would be coming, it was a big surprise to anyone. So yeah, people did feel they had to request it, especially since it was officially stated no toddlers was a considered decision, based on telemetry. “You didn’t play them, it’s your own fault we took them out.” That was the, almost literal, message. There was a huge topic back then, counting hundreds and hundreds of pages, filled with people asking for them. So many people asked for them, that other people became tired of it and couldn’t even stand the word toddler anymore. So the term t-word was introduced. People requested toddlers all right, telemetry apparently lied. Or - more likely - was interpreted the wrong way.

    Pools were planned, ghosts were planned, family tree was planned and I bet toddlers were planned too if enough people would ask. They were even in the coding. Who knows terrain tools were planned too. But fans didn’t know. They felt they had to beg for it and it created this strange atmosphere, where people are praising the creators now (I’ve even seen people declare they screamed and cried so I’m not in the least exaggerating) when they introduce features that were ‘just there’ in the past. And at the same time it leaves the community dissatisfied and suspicious. They are creating this atmosphere of hunger, lack. Then they deliver. It’s a strategy and it’s working. That doesn’t mean we have to like it or be ok with it.

    I've been around since the beginning of time. I'm not talking about how people felt, that's irrelevant. I'm talking about the fact that toddlers were already coming. Just because we weren't privy to that information, doesn't change anything. Of course none of us knew; that's not in dispute. EA simply couldn't tell us about them. So my point is, toddlers were already planned. It wasn't a situation where they wouldn't have come if not requested. And this was pretty much confirmed by a Guru at the time toddlers finally appeared. So you clearly weren't around when toddlers were released. ;)

    And here's what that official statement really meant (even though Rachel couldn't go into detail): They felt they had made the right decision at the time (to leave them out temporarily) because they didn't want to shoehorn them in. They honestly didn't believe it would cause as much backlash, since telemetry indicated otherwise. The 'You didn't play them so we took them out' mentality is what happens when simmers misinterpret statements and add the wrong assumptions. There's always a lot of that going on; simmers read something, take it the wrong way and then RUN with it. It would have been best if Rachel had kept quiet, since she couldn't explain further and it only made the situation worse.

    I remember when all the backlash about toddlers started, SimGuruRyan even commented for us to "Read between the lines." Hinting that we would get them eventually. It was removed, though, since they weren't allowed to tell us anything.

    Yo, don’t spill the facts if they aren’t actually facts. Toddlers probably weren’t immediately a priority for the studio who was trying to make the game more attractive in the short term so people would buy it. Toddlers were def not short-term it took over two years to add them. They also said whatever they needed to say to try and placate disgruntled players, it’s called mouth service and it ran rampant at Maxis back then. Also, please don’t stroke RF’s ego after all these years and the mess she made. It’s not like the worst thing she did was make that comment about toddlers, but let’s not pat her on the back for it either.

    First, never once did I say that toddlers were a priority for them (which only they know for sure.)

    2. I also did not imply that they were short term, and I am fully aware of how long they took to arrive.

    3. WHERE ON GOD's GREEN EARTH did I stroke anyone's ego? Pat her on the back??? Seriously? Lol. I kept my feelings about those unfortunate situations to myself because I'd probably get banned. And also because those situations should not be taken personally against her. Instead, I made objective observations about what I firmly believe happened at the time. (And realizing that simmers have a habit of misunderstanding things and running with it is not stroking anybody's anything.) Please do not add to what I said, or read more into it than what I stated. :|
  • ClarionOfJoyClarionOfJoy Posts: 1,694 Member
    IceyJ wrote: »
    One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that I realize that many who stayed with Sims 3 did so because of the vast differences between the two games. I am one of them. TS3 is still my favorite and I'm playing it right now. Just because the games are so different, doesn't make one or the other inferior. Was TS4 inferior at release? Yes, in my opinion, it absolutely was. But I feel it has caught up now in terms of free AND paid content so I can actually play it.

    @JoAnne65 The reason why people go over the moon for new colors, is because we understand that this game is like TS2 in that respect, so more swatches are always welcome. Yes, TS3 slays TS4 when it comes to that and many other details, but TS4 also slays TS3 in many other areas. I can't tell you how many frustrating limitations there are in TS3, that I am able to do easily in 4. Just as many limitations frustrate me about TS4, that I am able to do easily in 3. I've learned to accept that they are very different games, and I play them each accordingly.

    They've already told us that this game won't have CAST (or open world,) and the reason why. So yes, they are listening when they give us new colors.

    I think the worst threat to TS4 is actually TS2 - that's why they took it off the market and stopped giving it away to people who provided proof that they had bought the original previously (I'm just so happy that I got it before they discontinued that offer!). It's one of the main reasons why I haven't even bothered to buy TS4. It was TS2, NOT TS3 so much that stopped me from buying TS4. Because even though it doesn't have the cool features that TS4 has, TS2 has richer gameplay and content for a closed world, if you compare the two side by side. There are so many good things about TS2 that I just don't envy the buggy, poor reflection that is TS4. TS2 has strong business mechanics. I love the weather system in TS2. Sims interaction with each other was much more realistic and far less buggy. You can have a real apartment community in a lot! I used to lay down the largest lot I could possible and put as many apartments and residents that my computer will allow in it and it was so much fun - it was like throwing a party everyday. There were so many details in gameplay. Routing was excellent with no clipping. So many useful objects with great features. I can go on. I don't play it as often as TS3, but I DO play it every so often nevertheless because I just love the wonderful features it has. You can't even say that TS4 is the rightful successor to TS2. What it is, is just a shadow of TS2 really.

    And I just bet, that if it was still selling as well as TS3, the devs and TS4 simmers would attack it as well. (And maybe TS1 too because THAT also has more gameplay and content than TS4!)

    Took a quick snapshot of my active sim with her date riding the roller coaster at the amusement park:
    The look of sheer terror is priceless, lol!

    Screenshot-186.jpg


  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,951 Member
    @JoAnne65 wrote: »
    If I remember correctly rodents were part of Pets back in the day, I didn’t separately pay for them. Nor did I pay for pools and toddlers and terrain tools and ghosts and family trees (you really think we should be glad those things came for free and if so why?).

    As I said
    Sure they work hard but the goal is no longer to release a full game at once, just pieces throughout the year.
    @JoAnne65 wrote: »
    We’re not talking about content here (like retail or restaurants or farms), we’re talking about tools and life stages. They make you pay for content all right (and rightly so).

    It's not completely exact. Pool = Free, Toddler = Free, Terrain tool = Free...

    Are restaurant and retail in TS4 give you as much gameplay as The Sims 3 did... in fact there were no ownable restaurant or retail in the packs.
    Sure the Store team tried something, you had to pay more for this content.
    Restaurants and retail didn't come free for Sims 4. Pools, toddlers, terrain tools, ghosts and family trees were free in Sims 3 as well. so I don't understand your point. My point was that those tools and features in both Sims 2 and 3 came directly when the games were released. Thát is the difference.
    IceyJ wrote: »
    @JoAnne65 You're moving the goal posts, here. No, how people felt at the time is not the whole point. Because my original statement was that using toddlers as an example of 'Do they listen'because we had to request them (and how long it subsequently took to get them) wasn't a good example because we didn't have to request them. I proceeded to explain why that wasn't a good example. We're not even talking about the same thing, so I'll leave you to it. B)
    Fair enough, I guess I am a little. But we don't even know if we didn't have to request them, do we? By no means as factual as you're suggesting here. Considering what RF declared, they were out for 'good' reasons - telemetry - but she clearly suggested that when people would plead for them on public forums, they'd take them into account. My theory is that toddlers initially would simply be in (a guru even confirmed that when interviewed a year before Sims 4 was released, 'all life stages are in') but then they ran out of time and toddlers were put on hold. Maybe to add them later on, maybe not, depending on how fans would react. There is no way of knowing what would have happened if fans wouldn't have complained as massively as they did. It took them two and a half years to add them, personally I wouldn't be surprised if they were just waiting to see how big and consistent the backlash would be. If nobody would have complained, who knows we'd never have seen toddlers. I'm not sure on what exactly you're basing this conviction they planned them. That's just a theory like any other theory. Because EA isn't exactly clear about things like that.

    On a positive note by the way: they very clearly listened to all the suggestions simmers came up with to improve toddlers in comparison to the toddlers in Sims 2 and 3. I recognize a lot that's in the game now concerning them, that was literally suggested in that impressive toddler topic back then.
    IceyJ wrote: »
    One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that I realize that many who stayed with Sims 3 did so because of the vast differences between the two games. I am one of them. TS3 is still my favorite and I'm playing it right now. Just because the games are so different, doesn't make one or the other inferior. Was TS4 inferior at release? Yes, in my opinion, it absolutely was. But I feel it has caught up now in terms of free AND paid content so I can actually play it.

    @JoAnne65 The reason why people go over the moon for new colors, is because we understand that this game is like TS2 in that respect, so more swatches are always welcome. Yes, TS3 slays TS4 when it comes to that and many other details, but TS4 also slays TS3 in many other areas. I can't tell you how many frustrating limitations there are in TS3, that I am able to do easily in 4. Just as many limitations frustrate me about TS4, that I am able to do easily in 3. I've learned to accept that they are very different games, and I play them each accordingly.

    They've already told us that this game won't have CAST (or open world,) and the reason why. So yes, they are listening when they give us new colors.
    TS4 'slays' Sims 3 where it comes to easy building, but Sims 3 will always beat Sims 4 where it comes to creativity. I genuinely don't care I can throw in rooms when all I can do is fill them with presets. I seriously don't care. I'm an avid builder in Sims 3, when I play Sims 4 I go to the Gallery and download something. And I always end up a bit disappointed, because as amazing as a house can look when shopping, it always comes down to the same old decorations once I open them. And it doesn't help surfaces often are a couple of colour varieties of one pattern. Compare that to Sims 3, where I can choose any pattern in any category I like for whatever item or clothing I want to. It's indeed more like Sims 2, two versions ago. And let's not forget that iteration allowed you to choose two channels of an object (like the bedding and the base for beds) that you could alter independently. In The Sims 4 changing the color only features one channel of redesigning.

    That being said, CASt most definitely is off topic here, because apart from adding it for new content, it just isn't possible for what's already in the game. This is one of those examples where they maybe listen, but are unable to deliver.
    5JZ57S6.png
  • LiELFLiELF Posts: 5,131 Member
    For the record regarding toddlers, yes, they were always planned to be added into Sims 4. This was stated by Sim Guru Ninja in the Game Pack section of the forums, right around the time Vampires came out. I know this because I was very active in that section at this time, and I was debating this very thing with another player who kept insisting that the uproar of the players was the reason we got them, and that they never would have been created at all if people hadn't rampaged the forums over it. He confirmed that actually toddlers had been planned all along, but nobody was allowed to say anything about it.
  • ddd994ddd994 Posts: 271 Member
    Ok, time for some T. I think one of the biggest problems with the sims 4 is the reasoning behind so many of their cutbacks: “to keep the game playable on lower end platforms”. Unfortunately this translates as just plain lazy, far too often. Let’s not forget the infamous reason as to why we are so limited with kitchen counters: too much effort to design all the connecting pieces... And now they seem to be cherry picking minor and completely random bugs to fix, throwing a few freebies at us in distraction rather than focusing on the bigger problems; unfortunately only adding to this lazy narrative... Hopefully with the new 64bit update this will no longer be the case. No more excuses now.

    I think they are listening to some extent and adding stuff as and when they can. But they’ve obviously struggled with balancing between fixing the game and expanding since release, often choosing the easier option rather than the best one.

    What also surprises me is how little the developers actually seem to play the sims 4. Have you seen the video on YouTube with guru Romeo playing with Simsupply? It’s pretty obvious he doesn’t have much experience actually playing the game. And didn’t guru Graham mention recently he didn’t play the sims 4 until it came out on console? Which was only like a year ago. Would make sense as to why there are so many huge bugs and issues. Is anyone working on the game, an active fan and player of it? I dunno, I don’t mean to be negative. I just find it surprising.

    Having said all that, I do feel they the past year or so worth of content has really added to the game and it does feel much more complete, so kudos for that. It’s just a shame this game is so ❤️❤️❤️❤️ buggy :(
  • GoldmoldarGoldmoldar Posts: 11,088 Member
    edited April 2019
    IceyJ wrote: »
    One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that I realize that many who stayed with Sims 3 did so because of the vast differences between the two games. I am one of them. TS3 is still my favorite and I'm playing it right now. Just because the games are so different, doesn't make one or the other inferior. Was TS4 inferior at release? Yes, in my opinion, it absolutely was. But I feel it has caught up now in terms of free AND paid content so I can actually play it.

    @JoAnne65 The reason why people go over the moon for new colors, is because we understand that this game is like TS2 in that respect, so more swatches are always welcome. Yes, TS3 slays TS4 when it comes to that and many other details, but TS4 also slays TS3 in many other areas. I can't tell you how many frustrating limitations there are in TS3, that I am able to do easily in 4. Just as many limitations frustrate me about TS4, that I am able to do easily in 3. I've learned to accept that they are very different games, and I play them each accordingly.

    They've already told us that this game won't have CAST (or open world,) and the reason why. So yes, they are listening when they give us new colors.

    Maybe for you it may not matter what version was/is inferior but you only can speak for yourself as I feel overall Sims 3 gave me more fun than the current pack. Yes, Sims 4 has improved over time but all in all it is an gimped version. Yes, Sims 4 is better in some areas which is expected of an new version but at the same time it is not enough for me to be excited about as I was for Sims 2 and Sims 3 when an new pack came out. Going back to loading screens for me is an step back and not forward even if it was brought back to stabilize performance. The program needs constant tweaking for various reasons as each pack brings new problems/bugs. As far as new colors goes it is like waiting for them to give me new neighborhoods which I now have to pay for. EA/Maxis have tried to close Pandora's box but once opened some will always want what was in the previous version as well as the new features. Sims 4 is for me is not above average, it is just okay sometimes and sometimes not okay.
    Post edited by Goldmoldar on
    AMD 2700X 32 GB Gigabyte RTX 2070 Super 8 GB Rosewill Rise Full Tower SB THX Trustudio VioTek 34" Curved monitor.
    Intel 6700K 32 GB ASUS RTX 2070 Strix 8 GB Stryker Full Tower SB Z-Series Samsung Curved 32" monitor.
  • LeGardePourpreLeGardePourpre Posts: 11,169 Member
    JoAnne65 wrote: »
    My point was that those tools and features in both Sims 2 and 3 came directly when the games were released.

    BioWare, The Sims Studio, ... "directly when the games were released" isn't what a live service is doing.

    I agree it's a big source of frustration.
  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 32,305 Member
    @JoAnne65 wrote: »
    If I remember correctly rodents were part of Pets back in the day, I didn’t separately pay for them. Nor did I pay for pools and toddlers and terrain tools and ghosts and family trees (you really think we should be glad those things came for free and if so why?).

    As I said
    Sure they work hard but the goal is no longer to release a full game at once, just pieces throughout the year.
    @JoAnne65 wrote: »
    We’re not talking about content here (like retail or restaurants or farms), we’re talking about tools and life stages. They make you pay for content all right (and rightly so).

    It's not completely exact. Pool = Free, Toddler = Free, Terrain tool = Free...

    Are restaurant and retail in TS4 give you as much gameplay as The Sims 3 did... in fact there were no ownable restaurant or retail in the packs.
    Sure the Store team tried something, you had to pay more for this content.

    No, Pool (paid for by a $60 base). Toddler (no, paid for by a $60+ base). There was nothing free about any of that stuff released for the first two or three years.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/958714/cinebar-custom-content-clothes-updating-links/p1


  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,951 Member
    edited April 2019
    LiELF wrote: »
    For the record regarding toddlers, yes, they were always planned to be added into Sims 4. This was stated by Sim Guru Ninja in the Game Pack section of the forums, right around the time Vampires came out. I know this because I was very active in that section at this time, and I was debating this very thing with another player who kept insisting that the uproar of the players was the reason we got them, and that they never would have been created at all if people hadn't rampaged the forums over it. He confirmed that actually toddlers had been planned all along, but nobody was allowed to say anything about it.
    It may sound surprising but for me this makes things worse, not better. Leaving sims fans in the dark about something fundamental like this for two and a half years, while they were screaming their lungs out in frustration, it’s genuinely beyond me. Especially, again, when it was literally suggested by the General Manager that toddlers were one of those things sims fans wanted [laughs] (but never played) and that they would keep an eye on the forums to see what people had to say about them missing. Maybe I’m just too old to not see right through it. It’s a Sims game*, you don’t ‘plan’ toddlers. You implement them on release day.


    *and yes, I realize the first Sims edition didn’t come with toddlers, but that game had a different focus plus it was the first one
    5JZ57S6.png
  • friendlysimmersfriendlysimmers Posts: 6,797 Member
    i am pretty sure everyone will agree with this as a player of the sims game what makes me angry is that the sims gurus are so close on upcoming content they should see all that is ask like for exemple i will use cars, i wish they could be more open on whats comingup for the sims4 it would also avoid lots of wild guessing and sepculation. At least thats what i think as a player of the sims4 even do i love the sims4
    If you went the sims5 to remain offline feel free to sign this petition http://chng.it/gtfHPhHK please note that it is also to keep the gallery



    Repose en paix mamie tu va me manquer :

    1923-2016 mamie :'(
  • AssimuloAssimulo Posts: 1,320 Member
    Simburian wrote: »
    They do listen but everybody is asking for different things. I didn't particularly want Laundry, Toddlers or University but both came top in online polls or petitions.

    I wouldn't be surprised if they would pay more attention to Feedback or Ideas if they consisted of hundred, thousands with just one word and not a long post.

    ie: Burglars
    Free babies
    Witches
    Horses
    Story Progression

    I, personally wouldn't mind

    Plumbing
    Engineering
    Farmer
    Painter and decorator

    Those that need the Sims actually to get their hands dirty.

    Sometimes I think they're not doing story progression because everyone already uses are really good and consistently updated mod for that. lol
  • leave_blank77leave_blank77 Posts: 26 Member
    Assimulo wrote: »
    Simburian wrote: »
    They do listen but everybody is asking for different things. I didn't particularly want Laundry, Toddlers or University but both came top in online polls or petitions.

    I wouldn't be surprised if they would pay more attention to Feedback or Ideas if they consisted of hundred, thousands with just one word and not a long post.

    ie: Burglars
    Free babies
    Witches
    Horses
    Story Progression

    I, personally wouldn't mind

    Plumbing
    Engineering
    Farmer
    Painter and decorator

    Those that need the Sims actually to get their hands dirty.

    Sometimes I think they're not doing story progression because everyone already uses are really good and consistently updated mod for that. lol

    But think of the PS4 players, they don't get mods. There's a mod to fix it is no longer an excuse. I do most of my gaming on PS4, there's just some games I play on PC. There's just some games that are better modded, like the Sims or Skyrim.
  • logionlogion Posts: 2,182 Member
    edited April 2019
    Things that have helped me better understand why things take time and while it feels like they don't listen:

    They are a team of around 200 developers, that's 200 people who needs to be paid every month. So anything that the studio decides to make will take time and cost a lot of money. This is probably why the simgurus are in so many meetings all the time.

    They often have to make some very hard choices because they just do not have enough time to make it all. Do they spend x amount of months making toddlers or do they spend x amount of months focusing on making the game more stable? They have most likely made some very hard choices to make the sims4 into what it is today. I suspect this is exactly what happened with toddlers and could be where things like cars are right now as well.

    Game development much like anything else has a limited budget and a project plan, if you want to add something that is not part of the project plan you have to make sure that you can finance it and it's not easy when you are limited by what the game can do as well. We may never see spiral staircases because there may not be any support for it in the game at all. Doing something as simple as adding a white shelf still probably has to go through all the right people.
    Post edited by logion on
  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 32,305 Member
    edited April 2019
    logion wrote: »
    Things that have helped me better understand why things take time and while it feels like they don't listen:

    They are a team of around 200 developers, that's 200 people who needs to be paid every month. So anything that the studio decides to make will take time and cost a lot of money. This is probably why the simgurus are in so many meetings all the time.

    They often have to make some very hard choices because they just do not have enough time to make it all. Do they spend x amount of months making toddlers or do they spend x amount of months focusing on making the game more stable? They have most likely made some very hard choices to make the sims4 into what it is today. I suspect this is exactly what happened with toddlers and could be where things like cars are right now as well.

    Game development much like anything else has a limited budget and a project plan, if you want to add something that is not part of the project plan you have to make sure that you can finance it and it's not easy when you are limited by what the game can do as well. We may never see spiral staircases because there may not be any support for it in the game at all. Doing something as simple as adding a white shelf still probably has to go through all the right people.

    With all respect do you think this team has it any harder than the teams of the past? Do you think they have made any harder choices than teams in the past? It sometimes irks me (no offense to anyone just a personal feeling) that this game gets so many excuses. ETA: A few examples, some were asked about anything a player wants, (and can provide links) of where the answer was But that's so hard to implement....that's something we never heard from them in the past, but it's the answers to just about everything someone asks today. No, it was just there, in a base, or in an EP. Of course it may have been a pain (No matter what action or activity ) but we never heard 'But that's so hard to implement'.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/958714/cinebar-custom-content-clothes-updating-links/p1


  • IceyJIceyJ Posts: 4,385 Member
    edited April 2019
    JoAnne65 wrote: »
    @JoAnne65 wrote: »
    If I remember correctly rodents were part of Pets back in the day, I didn’t separately pay for them. Nor did I pay for pools and toddlers and terrain tools and ghosts and family trees (you really think we should be glad those things came for free and if so why?).

    As I said
    Sure they work hard but the goal is no longer to release a full game at once, just pieces throughout the year.
    @JoAnne65 wrote: »
    We’re not talking about content here (like retail or restaurants or farms), we’re talking about tools and life stages. They make you pay for content all right (and rightly so).

    It's not completely exact. Pool = Free, Toddler = Free, Terrain tool = Free...

    Are restaurant and retail in TS4 give you as much gameplay as The Sims 3 did... in fact there were no ownable restaurant or retail in the packs.
    Sure the Store team tried something, you had to pay more for this content.
    Restaurants and retail didn't come free for Sims 4. Pools, toddlers, terrain tools, ghosts and family trees were free in Sims 3 as well. so I don't understand your point. My point was that those tools and features in both Sims 2 and 3 came directly when the games were released. Thát is the difference.
    IceyJ wrote: »
    @JoAnne65 You're moving the goal posts, here. No, how people felt at the time is not the whole point. Because my original statement was that using toddlers as an example of 'Do they listen'because we had to request them (and how long it subsequently took to get them) wasn't a good example because we didn't have to request them. I proceeded to explain why that wasn't a good example. We're not even talking about the same thing, so I'll leave you to it. B)
    Fair enough, I guess I am a little. But we don't even know if we didn't have to request them, do we? By no means as factual as you're suggesting here. Considering what RF declared, they were out for 'good' reasons - telemetry - but she clearly suggested that when people would plead for them on public forums, they'd take them into account. My theory is that toddlers initially would simply be in (a guru even confirmed that when interviewed a year before Sims 4 was released, 'all life stages are in') but then they ran out of time and toddlers were put on hold. Maybe to add them later on, maybe not, depending on how fans would react. There is no way of knowing what would have happened if fans wouldn't have complained as massively as they did. It took them two and a half years to add them, personally I wouldn't be surprised if they were just waiting to see how big and consistent the backlash would be. If nobody would have complained, who knows we'd never have seen toddlers. I'm not sure on what exactly you're basing this conviction they planned them. That's just a theory like any other theory. Because EA isn't exactly clear about things like that.

    On a positive note by the way: they very clearly listened to all the suggestions simmers came up with to improve toddlers in comparison to the toddlers in Sims 2 and 3. I recognize a lot that's in the game now concerning them, that was literally suggested in that impressive toddler topic back then.
    IceyJ wrote: »
    One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that I realize that many who stayed with Sims 3 did so because of the vast differences between the two games. I am one of them. TS3 is still my favorite and I'm playing it right now. Just because the games are so different, doesn't make one or the other inferior. Was TS4 inferior at release? Yes, in my opinion, it absolutely was. But I feel it has caught up now in terms of free AND paid content so I can actually play it.

    @JoAnne65 The reason why people go over the moon for new colors, is because we understand that this game is like TS2 in that respect, so more swatches are always welcome. Yes, TS3 slays TS4 when it comes to that and many other details, but TS4 also slays TS3 in many other areas. I can't tell you how many frustrating limitations there are in TS3, that I am able to do easily in 4. Just as many limitations frustrate me about TS4, that I am able to do easily in 3. I've learned to accept that they are very different games, and I play them each accordingly.

    They've already told us that this game won't have CAST (or open world,) and the reason why. So yes, they are listening when they give us new colors.
    TS4 'slays' Sims 3 where it comes to easy building, but Sims 3 will always beat Sims 4 where it comes to creativity. I genuinely don't care I can throw in rooms when all I can do is fill them with presets. I seriously don't care. I'm an avid builder in Sims 3, when I play Sims 4 I go to the Gallery and download something. And I always end up a bit disappointed, because as amazing as a house can look when shopping, it always comes down to the same old decorations once I open them. And it doesn't help surfaces often are a couple of colour varieties of one pattern. Compare that to Sims 3, where I can choose any pattern in any category I like for whatever item or clothing I want to. It's indeed more like Sims 2, two versions ago. And let's not forget that iteration allowed you to choose two channels of an object (like the bedding and the base for beds) that you could alter independently. In The Sims 4 changing the color only features one channel of redesigning.

    That being said, CASt most definitely is off topic here, because apart from adding it for new content, it just isn't possible for what's already in the game. This is one of those examples where they maybe listen, but are unable to deliver.

    Well, there was much evidence (and hints) to determine that we didn't have to request them. Maybe not 100% proven, but after listening and watching for those two years, that's the impression given for anyone really paying attention.

    In the interview after we got toddlers, Sarah was asked, "How long have you been working on Toddlers in The Sims 4? What initiated the team to begin development?

    Answer:
    "We’ve talked about Toddlers a LOT on the Development team, and we’ve talked about them for a long time. What we’d like to do with them, what the community would like to see, what they might look like, how they might act. We always knew we were going to add Toddlers to The Sims 4 at some point, we just weren’t sure when." I think this is the most concrete proof, here.

    Also, SimGuruRyan's hint to 'read between the lines,' after they'd already responded to the toddlers backlash by saying something to the effect of 'giving us everything that our hearts desire.'

    The constant, "We are listening, we hear you, etc." because they weren't allowed to tell us that toddlers were already being worked on. Not to mention the fact that SimGuruGrant originally stated that all life stages would be in the game at launch. Graham said they didn't want to squeeze them in (shoehorn) last minute. It's pretty obvious that toddlers were already planned, and were held back due to lack of time.

    You brought CASt into the discussion, but I wouldn't call it off-topic. It's an example of listening. They responded to CASt requests (which we can't have,) by adding new swatches. You may not be satisfied with the results, but it's clear that someone's listening.

    Personally, I want them to create a color wheel team. I don't care how long it would take them to edit every hair and chair in the game, just do it. Lol.
  • IceyJIceyJ Posts: 4,385 Member
    edited April 2019
    LiELF wrote: »
    For the record regarding toddlers, yes, they were always planned to be added into Sims 4. This was stated by Sim Guru Ninja in the Game Pack section of the forums, right around the time Vampires came out. I know this because I was very active in that section at this time, and I was debating this very thing with another player who kept insisting that the uproar of the players was the reason we got them, and that they never would have been created at all if people hadn't rampaged the forums over it. He confirmed that actually toddlers had been planned all along, but nobody was allowed to say anything about it.

    That's interesting, and would be more factual than anything I provided, lol. I either missed that conversation, or completely forgot.

    *ETA: I forgot. Now that I've re-read it, I definitely remember his statement. He said, "Toddlers are something we've desperately wanted to do since we launched. And for free as a patch too - not paid content."

    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/comment/15457801#Comment_15457801

    Also, this: https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/comment/15457522/#Comment_15457522
  • logionlogion Posts: 2,182 Member
    edited April 2019
    Cinebar wrote: »
    logion wrote: »
    Things that have helped me better understand why things take time and while it feels like they don't listen:

    They are a team of around 200 developers, that's 200 people who needs to be paid every month. So anything that the studio decides to make will take time and cost a lot of money. This is probably why the simgurus are in so many meetings all the time.

    They often have to make some very hard choices because they just do not have enough time to make it all. Do they spend x amount of months making toddlers or do they spend x amount of months focusing on making the game more stable? They have most likely made some very hard choices to make the sims4 into what it is today. I suspect this is exactly what happened with toddlers and could be where things like cars are right now as well.

    Game development much like anything else has a limited budget and a project plan, if you want to add something that is not part of the project plan you have to make sure that you can finance it and it's not easy when you are limited by what the game can do as well. We may never see spiral staircases because there may not be any support for it in the game at all. Doing something as simple as adding a white shelf still probably has to go through all the right people.

    With all respect do you think this team has it any harder than the teams of the past? Do you think they have made any harder choices than teams in the past? It sometimes irks me (no offense to anyone just a personal feeling) that this game gets so many excuses. ETA: A few examples, some were asked about anything a player wants, (and can provide links) of where the answer was But that's so hard to implement....that's something we never heard from them in the past, but it's the answers to just about everything someone asks today. No, it was just there, in a base, or in an EP. Of course it may have been a pain (No matter what action or activity ) but we never heard 'But that's so hard to implement'.

    It's really difficult to tell, I have not followed this game from the start, perhaps other people know better but I heard for example rumors that the sims4 was supposed to be multiplayer, but they scrapped it after the failure of SimCity (2013). So the game was from the beginning not even really built for single player. Apparently the game's coding is also supposed to be difficult to work with.

    I think we will never really know though what problems they deal with when making new content for the sims4, if they are limited by time or budget, they are bound by contract to not tell about the game's development and some things are probably too difficult to explain, like how to code in a new life state like toddlers in an already existing game.

    And that is probably why they never said when asked about toddlers: "Unfortunately we have to code in an entire new life state which means we have to rebuild most of the code in the game that was coded from the beginning to only work with this many life states and to even be allowed to rewrite the code we have to assign this many teams to work on the base game code which will consist of multiple developers who were there from the beginning and we have to check with the developer managers how much time it will take to do this so we will not go over budget with how much money we said it would take to create toddlers on our latest meeting with the publisher, and when that is done we have to test the feature to make sure that it is bug free, we probably have to rewrite a lot of build items how they work so the toddler does not for example use a chair because the chair is coded so any sim can use it."


    Post edited by logion on
  • LiELFLiELF Posts: 5,131 Member
    IceyJ wrote: »
    LiELF wrote: »
    For the record regarding toddlers, yes, they were always planned to be added into Sims 4. This was stated by Sim Guru Ninja in the Game Pack section of the forums, right around the time Vampires came out. I know this because I was very active in that section at this time, and I was debating this very thing with another player who kept insisting that the uproar of the players was the reason we got them, and that they never would have been created at all if people hadn't rampaged the forums over it. He confirmed that actually toddlers had been planned all along, but nobody was allowed to say anything about it.

    That's interesting, and would be more factual than anything I provided, lol. I either missed that conversation, or completely forgot.

    *ETA: I forgot. Now that I've re-read it, I definitely remember his statement. He said, "Toddlers are something we've desperately wanted to do since we launched. And for free as a patch too - not paid content."

    https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/comment/15457801#Comment_15457801

    Also, this: https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/comment/15457522/#Comment_15457522

    Nice! Thanks for finding it! :)
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