In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I don't think the issues TS4 has is due to the engine. It's probably due to design choices and a lack of fixing issues as they arise.
I mean The Sims 2 engine was able to be turned into The Sims 3.
The Urbz engine was used to make The Sims 3 on Wii, which is Open World and has Kids, Teens etc. whereas the Urbz had none of that.
This of how many games are made using Unreal Engine.
I think its more of a case of design choices. I don't think the engine and foundation is limited at all.
The game has changed so much since launch, that I feel like they could do so much more if they put the work in.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I’m curious to understand what exactly you mean by a weaker foundation. At launch I can completely understand this idea, but now that the games been updated and with packs released, I would say the engine (with whatever limitations it may have) has proven itself very useful and quite advanced in many aspects of the game.
Exactly. Play the 2014 version of TS4 and it feels like another game. People don't realize how much the AI and everything about the game has changed.
Oh they realize it. They just ignore it.
With the exception of minor tuning to two reactions (only death and jealousy) the game’s AI is largely unchanged. Adding in pools, toddlers, or dishwashers isn’t changing the AI, or expanding upon the game engine’s foundation. So I think you are attributing too much change to the game, when in all reality they have filled it out with stuff, and not changed much at all.
AI is still terrible, as it has been since launch. The game still has the same restrictions now that it did in 2014 - even more so when you look at how DLC has been sectioned off in-game and is only available in certain areas under other restrictions. For a Sims game The Sims 4 has the most incapable game engine. Does not matter if people like the game, that’s irrelevant, the engine is subpar and will always be subpar. After all it was built for an online social game, or are you ignoring that?
This.
Anyone pretending the AI has improved is fooling themselves. Have a sim cheat on their spouse in front of them. Watch as they react with...wait for it a moodlet
But that's it. No confrontation, physical or verbal. Then watch as the sim becomes happy (if they have even changed emotions) because they went into a nicely decorated room. Then for even more fun have your sim go off and woohoo with their cheating spouse right away because they can..because they don't care.
In depth stuff. Also for kicks watch as the same thing happens when a family member dies.
I think The game is already a live service of sorts. They have confirmed it already and with the trickle of paid dlc that is coming each quarter it's not far off loot boxes and other similar in game purchases. It's not a practise I support with any game least of all the sims. It's ripping the customer off.
I disagree strongly that the sims 4 will look good in years to come. If the sims 5 is released and is more realistic style everyone will be the first to say the sims 4 cartoon style looks garbage. The sims 3 world still look better and more realistic because of the style it uses.
I've had many physical confrontations for cheating sims. I even have a video uploaded to my YouTube featuring such a confrontation (a video too inappropriate to share on these forums because of course language), a sim cheated on his spouse only to be bombarded with slaps and yelling from the spouse, only for later the spouse to die of anger. My sim died of anger because she was cheated on. The AI isn't perfect for sure, but it isn't something that can't be fine tuned. My biggest issue right now with the AI is when Sims choose to walk unnecessary lengths to fulfil a task, cleaning the dishes for example, there is a perfect sink and dish washer in the kitchen next room, yet they decide to walk up to the upstairs bathroom to clean the dishes there. Or when I tell a sim to do said task, walks across the lot to greet some random sim, to then perform the task. And then there's obviously the bugs that interfere with how sims behave, I've encountered a lot of bugs with interacting with toddlers lately. But besides that, the bugs, I find the AI to be fine, maybe sims reactions to events isn't as dramatic as previous games, but again, nothing that can't be fixed.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I don't think the issues TS4 has is due to the engine. It's probably due to design choices and a lack of fixing issues as they arise.
I mean The Sims 2 engine was able to be turned into The Sims 3.
The Urbz engine was used to make The Sims 3 on Wii, which is Open World and has Kids, Teens etc. whereas the Urbz had none of that.
This of how many games are made using Unreal Engine.
I think its more of a case of design choices. I don't think the engine and foundation is limited at all.
The game has changed so much since launch, that I feel like they could do so much more if they put the work in.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I’m curious to understand what exactly you mean by a weaker foundation. At launch I can completely understand this idea, but now that the games been updated and with packs released, I would say the engine (with whatever limitations it may have) has proven itself very useful and quite advanced in many aspects of the game.
Exactly. Play the 2014 version of TS4 and it feels like another game. People don't realize how much the AI and everything about the game has changed.
Oh they realize it. They just ignore it.
With the exception of minor tuning to two reactions (only death and jealousy) the game’s AI is largely unchanged. Adding in pools, toddlers, or dishwashers isn’t changing the AI, or expanding upon the game engine’s foundation. So I think you are attributing too much change to the game, when in all reality they have filled it out with stuff, and not changed much at all.
AI is still terrible, as it has been since launch. The game still has the same restrictions now that it did in 2014 - even more so when you look at how DLC has been sectioned off in-game and is only available in certain areas under other restrictions. For a Sims game The Sims 4 has the most incapable game engine. Does not matter if people like the game, that’s irrelevant, the engine is subpar and will always be subpar. After all it was built for an online social game, or are you ignoring that?
But my question is, is the engine really truly limited? Or does the design of the game make it seem so because it’s “sectioned off” as you say (when you say sectioned off what exactly do you mean? I think I have an idea but just want some personal clarification on your part)? The only areas of the game that have proven “limited” is adding back an open world, adding back a colour wheel, and possibly adding terrain tools, everything else however, feature-wise, seems completely possible. And the only reason why open world and colour wheel aren’t in the game is because that was the design choice to do so. I’m sure if they developed hard enough they could add those features back in with enough time money and effort.
For example, take City Living: it’s two big key selling points were apartments, and festivals. Neither are available outside of the world included with CL - they are sectioned off from the remainder of the game. Similarly, invites in GT really only work for the GT locations (bluffs, ruins, Mansion). Active careers are only available in their sectioned off worlds, and pets are only programmed to naturally roam the open areas of the world included with C&D. In Sims 2, and Sims 3 nothing was explicitly restricted to one area (aside from University which is not a main world activity anyway) and content from EP’s could be freely added or removed from any given world.
Well, again, are these restrictions based on the engine or design choices? Something like City Living and the features that came with that pack I understand from a design perspective for these features to only be available in San Myshuno, specifically the festivals. Apartments would've been nice to have as an available option across all the worlds I will admit (is the lack of an option to have apartments in other worlds an engine restriction?), but something like the festivals make sense to appear on an off the lot location within the new world that came with the pack. Would you really want these festivals showing up in other worlds? To me it doesn't really matter because I'm not restricted to what worlds I can visit. If Sims 4 was similar to Sims 3 in regards to only being able to play in one world per save then I could completely understand these limitations, but City Livings main features, the city, the apartments, the festivals, are all accessible in any situation in any save file.
As for something like Get Together invites only showing up for Windenburg locations I'm not entirely sure about. This I actually do get annoyed by, how come my sims never get invited to a dance club that I've placed in San Myshuno or Oasis Springs? I've also noticed that clubs only seem to autonomously appear within Windenburg as well, another annoyance of mine, why don't clubs I've created that have specific locations set not show up at that location when I visit that location? Design choice? Or limitation?
Active careers being restricted to inaccessible areas I can understand as a design choice, even if it is a restriction I don't really mind, the lot is there, I visit it when I need to go to work, I go home. I don't really see the benefit of placing workplace lots in other locations but that's just me.
Pets only showing up in Brindleton Bay I'm 100% certain that it's a design choice and not an engine restriction. Someone made a mod that enables strays to show up in other worlds, as well as sims walking their dogs in other worlds. Why they designed the pack this way by default is completely beyond me. I would love to see a few strays here and there in the other worlds, especially dog owners walking their dogs in other worlds, it would be great for immersion.
So again, is the Sims 4 engine really as restrictive as people make it out to be? Or are people confusing design choices with engine limitations?
@filipomel - you keep asking if it's restrictive or a design choice. Even if it's a design choice, it's still a restriction on players. Not letting them to play their way or rule - as was the slogan for TS4 - is a huge restriction. So whether or not the engine is restricted or it's simply a design choice, those choices are hindering to some styles of play.
I completely agree with what you are saying. But I was just pointing out the possibility that maybe the engine isn't as restricted as some people make it out to be. You are right though, if a lot of these restrictions are design choices and not necessarily based on the engine, why not open up these features a bit more?
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I don't think the issues TS4 has is due to the engine. It's probably due to design choices and a lack of fixing issues as they arise.
I mean The Sims 2 engine was able to be turned into The Sims 3.
The Urbz engine was used to make The Sims 3 on Wii, which is Open World and has Kids, Teens etc. whereas the Urbz had none of that.
This of how many games are made using Unreal Engine.
I think its more of a case of design choices. I don't think the engine and foundation is limited at all.
The game has changed so much since launch, that I feel like they could do so much more if they put the work in.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I’m curious to understand what exactly you mean by a weaker foundation. At launch I can completely understand this idea, but now that the games been updated and with packs released, I would say the engine (with whatever limitations it may have) has proven itself very useful and quite advanced in many aspects of the game.
Exactly. Play the 2014 version of TS4 and it feels like another game. People don't realize how much the AI and everything about the game has changed.
Oh they realize it. They just ignore it.
With the exception of minor tuning to two reactions (only death and jealousy) the game’s AI is largely unchanged. Adding in pools, toddlers, or dishwashers isn’t changing the AI, or expanding upon the game engine’s foundation. So I think you are attributing too much change to the game, when in all reality they have filled it out with stuff, and not changed much at all.
AI is still terrible, as it has been since launch. The game still has the same restrictions now that it did in 2014 - even more so when you look at how DLC has been sectioned off in-game and is only available in certain areas under other restrictions. For a Sims game The Sims 4 has the most incapable game engine. Does not matter if people like the game, that’s irrelevant, the engine is subpar and will always be subpar. After all it was built for an online social game, or are you ignoring that?
This.
Anyone pretending the AI has improved is fooling themselves. Have a sim cheat on their spouse in front of them. Watch as they react with...wait for it a moodlet
But that's it. No confrontation, physical or verbal. Then watch as the sim becomes happy (if they have even changed emotions) because they went into a nicely decorated room. Then for even more fun have your sim go off and woohoo with their cheating spouse right away because they can..because they don't care.
In depth stuff. Also for kicks watch as the same thing happens when a family member dies.
I think The game is already a live service of sorts. They have confirmed it already and with the trickle of paid dlc that is coming each quarter it's not far off loot boxes and other similar in game purchases. It's not a practise I support with any game least of all the sims. It's ripping the customer off.
I disagree strongly that the sims 4 will look good in years to come. If the sims 5 is released and is more realistic style everyone will be the first to say the sims 4 cartoon style looks garbage. The sims 3 world still look better and more realistic because of the style it uses.
I've had many physical confrontations for cheating sims. I even have a video uploaded to my YouTube featuring such a confrontation (a video too inappropriate to share on these forums because of course language), a sim cheated on his spouse only to be bombarded with slaps and yelling from the spouse, only for later the spouse to die of anger. My sim died of anger because she was cheated on. The AI isn't perfect for sure, but it isn't something that can't be fine tuned. My biggest issue right now with the AI is when Sims choose to walk unnecessary lengths to fulfil a task, cleaning the dishes for example, there is a perfect sink and dish washer in the kitchen next room, yet they decide to walk up to the upstairs bathroom to clean the dishes there. Or when I tell a sim to do said task, walks across the lot to greet some random sim, to then perform the task. And then there's obviously the bugs that interfere with how sims behave, I've encountered a lot of bugs with interacting with toddlers lately. But besides that, the bugs, I find the AI to be fine, maybe sims reactions to events isn't as dramatic as previous games, but again, nothing that can't be fixed.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I don't think the issues TS4 has is due to the engine. It's probably due to design choices and a lack of fixing issues as they arise.
I mean The Sims 2 engine was able to be turned into The Sims 3.
The Urbz engine was used to make The Sims 3 on Wii, which is Open World and has Kids, Teens etc. whereas the Urbz had none of that.
This of how many games are made using Unreal Engine.
I think its more of a case of design choices. I don't think the engine and foundation is limited at all.
The game has changed so much since launch, that I feel like they could do so much more if they put the work in.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I’m curious to understand what exactly you mean by a weaker foundation. At launch I can completely understand this idea, but now that the games been updated and with packs released, I would say the engine (with whatever limitations it may have) has proven itself very useful and quite advanced in many aspects of the game.
Exactly. Play the 2014 version of TS4 and it feels like another game. People don't realize how much the AI and everything about the game has changed.
Oh they realize it. They just ignore it.
With the exception of minor tuning to two reactions (only death and jealousy) the game’s AI is largely unchanged. Adding in pools, toddlers, or dishwashers isn’t changing the AI, or expanding upon the game engine’s foundation. So I think you are attributing too much change to the game, when in all reality they have filled it out with stuff, and not changed much at all.
AI is still terrible, as it has been since launch. The game still has the same restrictions now that it did in 2014 - even more so when you look at how DLC has been sectioned off in-game and is only available in certain areas under other restrictions. For a Sims game The Sims 4 has the most incapable game engine. Does not matter if people like the game, that’s irrelevant, the engine is subpar and will always be subpar. After all it was built for an online social game, or are you ignoring that?
But my question is, is the engine really truly limited? Or does the design of the game make it seem so because it’s “sectioned off” as you say (when you say sectioned off what exactly do you mean? I think I have an idea but just want some personal clarification on your part)? The only areas of the game that have proven “limited” is adding back an open world, adding back a colour wheel, and possibly adding terrain tools, everything else however, feature-wise, seems completely possible. And the only reason why open world and colour wheel aren’t in the game is because that was the design choice to do so. I’m sure if they developed hard enough they could add those features back in with enough time money and effort.
For example, take City Living: it’s two big key selling points were apartments, and festivals. Neither are available outside of the world included with CL - they are sectioned off from the remainder of the game. Similarly, invites in GT really only work for the GT locations (bluffs, ruins, Mansion). Active careers are only available in their sectioned off worlds, and pets are only programmed to naturally roam the open areas of the world included with C&D. In Sims 2, and Sims 3 nothing was explicitly restricted to one area (aside from University which is not a main world activity anyway) and content from EP’s could be freely added or removed from any given world.
Well, again, are these restrictions based on the engine or design choices? Something like City Living and the features that came with that pack I understand from a design perspective for these features to only be available in San Myshuno, specifically the festivals. Apartments would've been nice to have as an available option across all the worlds I will admit (is the lack of an option to have apartments in other worlds an engine restriction?), but something like the festivals make sense to appear on an off the lot location within the new world that came with the pack. Would you really want these festivals showing up in other worlds? To me it doesn't really matter because I'm not restricted to what worlds I can visit. If Sims 4 was similar to Sims 3 in regards to only being able to play in one world per save then I could completely understand these limitations, but City Livings main features, the city, the apartments, the festivals, are all accessible in any situation in any save file.
As for something like Get Together invites only showing up for Windenburg locations I'm not entirely sure about. This I actually do get annoyed by, how come my sims never get invited to a dance club that I've placed in San Myshuno or Oasis Springs? I've also noticed that clubs only seem to autonomously appear within Windenburg as well, another annoyance of mine, why don't clubs I've created that have specific locations set not show up at that location when I visit that location? Design choice? Or limitation?
Active careers being restricted to inaccessible areas I can understand as a design choice, even if it is a restriction I don't really mind, the lot is there, I visit it when I need to go to work, I go home. I don't really see the benefit of placing workplace lots in other locations but that's just me.
Pets only showing up in Brindleton Bay I'm 100% certain that it's a design choice and not an engine restriction. Someone made a mod that enables strays to show up in other worlds, as well as sims walking their dogs in other worlds. Why they designed the pack this way by default is completely beyond me. I would love to see a few strays here and there in the other worlds, especially dog owners walking their dogs in other worlds, it would be great for immersion.
So again, is the Sims 4 engine really as restrictive as people make it out to be? Or are people confusing design choices with engine limitations?
@filipomel - you keep asking if it's restrictive or a design choice. Even if it's a design choice, it's still a restriction on players. Not letting them to play their way or rule - as was the slogan for TS4 - is a huge restriction. So whether or not the engine is restricted or it's simply a design choice, those choices are hindering to some styles of play.
I completely agree with what you are saying. But I was just pointing out the possibility that maybe the engine isn't as restricted as some people make it out to be. You are right though, if a lot of these restrictions are design choices and not necessarily based on the engine, why not open up these features a bit more?
The engine is a product of their own design. So at the basic level yeah to answer your question it is a design choice, but when new features are added the engine has to be modified to accommodate them, and it is not always feasible to make large scale changes that must be made to get particular features in. In that regard having an engine that doesn’t offer much without a lot of work is limited. Sims 4 excels at certain things, and falls flat with others. It’s obvious their packs don’t get adequate funding which influences their designs to accodate the limitations of the engine instead of building something more complex. I.e. apartments
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I don't think the issues TS4 has is due to the engine. It's probably due to design choices and a lack of fixing issues as they arise.
I mean The Sims 2 engine was able to be turned into The Sims 3.
The Urbz engine was used to make The Sims 3 on Wii, which is Open World and has Kids, Teens etc. whereas the Urbz had none of that.
This of how many games are made using Unreal Engine.
I think its more of a case of design choices. I don't think the engine and foundation is limited at all.
The game has changed so much since launch, that I feel like they could do so much more if they put the work in.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I’m curious to understand what exactly you mean by a weaker foundation. At launch I can completely understand this idea, but now that the games been updated and with packs released, I would say the engine (with whatever limitations it may have) has proven itself very useful and quite advanced in many aspects of the game.
Exactly. Play the 2014 version of TS4 and it feels like another game. People don't realize how much the AI and everything about the game has changed.
Oh they realize it. They just ignore it.
With the exception of minor tuning to two reactions (only death and jealousy) the game’s AI is largely unchanged. Adding in pools, toddlers, or dishwashers isn’t changing the AI, or expanding upon the game engine’s foundation. So I think you are attributing too much change to the game, when in all reality they have filled it out with stuff, and not changed much at all.
AI is still terrible, as it has been since launch. The game still has the same restrictions now that it did in 2014 - even more so when you look at how DLC has been sectioned off in-game and is only available in certain areas under other restrictions. For a Sims game The Sims 4 has the most incapable game engine. Does not matter if people like the game, that’s irrelevant, the engine is subpar and will always be subpar. After all it was built for an online social game, or are you ignoring that?
This.
Anyone pretending the AI has improved is fooling themselves. Have a sim cheat on their spouse in front of them. Watch as they react with...wait for it a moodlet
But that's it. No confrontation, physical or verbal. Then watch as the sim becomes happy (if they have even changed emotions) because they went into a nicely decorated room. Then for even more fun have your sim go off and woohoo with their cheating spouse right away because they can..because they don't care.
In depth stuff. Also for kicks watch as the same thing happens when a family member dies.
I think The game is already a live service of sorts. They have confirmed it already and with the trickle of paid dlc that is coming each quarter it's not far off loot boxes and other similar in game purchases. It's not a practise I support with any game least of all the sims. It's ripping the customer off.
I disagree strongly that the sims 4 will look good in years to come. If the sims 5 is released and is more realistic style everyone will be the first to say the sims 4 cartoon style looks garbage. The sims 3 world still look better and more realistic because of the style it uses.
I've had many physical confrontations for cheating sims. I even have a video uploaded to my YouTube featuring such a confrontation (a video too inappropriate to share on these forums because of course language), a sim cheated on his spouse only to be bombarded with slaps and yelling from the spouse, only for later the spouse to die of anger. My sim died of anger because she was cheated on. The AI isn't perfect for sure, but it isn't something that can't be fine tuned. My biggest issue right now with the AI is when Sims choose to walk unnecessary lengths to fulfil a task, cleaning the dishes for example, there is a perfect sink and dish washer in the kitchen next room, yet they decide to walk up to the upstairs bathroom to clean the dishes there. Or when I tell a sim to do said task, walks across the lot to greet some random sim, to then perform the task. And then there's obviously the bugs that interfere with how sims behave, I've encountered a lot of bugs with interacting with toddlers lately. But besides that, the bugs, I find the AI to be fine, maybe sims reactions to events isn't as dramatic as previous games, but again, nothing that can't be fixed.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I don't think the issues TS4 has is due to the engine. It's probably due to design choices and a lack of fixing issues as they arise.
I mean The Sims 2 engine was able to be turned into The Sims 3.
The Urbz engine was used to make The Sims 3 on Wii, which is Open World and has Kids, Teens etc. whereas the Urbz had none of that.
This of how many games are made using Unreal Engine.
I think its more of a case of design choices. I don't think the engine and foundation is limited at all.
The game has changed so much since launch, that I feel like they could do so much more if they put the work in.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I’m curious to understand what exactly you mean by a weaker foundation. At launch I can completely understand this idea, but now that the games been updated and with packs released, I would say the engine (with whatever limitations it may have) has proven itself very useful and quite advanced in many aspects of the game.
Exactly. Play the 2014 version of TS4 and it feels like another game. People don't realize how much the AI and everything about the game has changed.
Oh they realize it. They just ignore it.
With the exception of minor tuning to two reactions (only death and jealousy) the game’s AI is largely unchanged. Adding in pools, toddlers, or dishwashers isn’t changing the AI, or expanding upon the game engine’s foundation. So I think you are attributing too much change to the game, when in all reality they have filled it out with stuff, and not changed much at all.
AI is still terrible, as it has been since launch. The game still has the same restrictions now that it did in 2014 - even more so when you look at how DLC has been sectioned off in-game and is only available in certain areas under other restrictions. For a Sims game The Sims 4 has the most incapable game engine. Does not matter if people like the game, that’s irrelevant, the engine is subpar and will always be subpar. After all it was built for an online social game, or are you ignoring that?
But my question is, is the engine really truly limited? Or does the design of the game make it seem so because it’s “sectioned off” as you say (when you say sectioned off what exactly do you mean? I think I have an idea but just want some personal clarification on your part)? The only areas of the game that have proven “limited” is adding back an open world, adding back a colour wheel, and possibly adding terrain tools, everything else however, feature-wise, seems completely possible. And the only reason why open world and colour wheel aren’t in the game is because that was the design choice to do so. I’m sure if they developed hard enough they could add those features back in with enough time money and effort.
For example, take City Living: it’s two big key selling points were apartments, and festivals. Neither are available outside of the world included with CL - they are sectioned off from the remainder of the game. Similarly, invites in GT really only work for the GT locations (bluffs, ruins, Mansion). Active careers are only available in their sectioned off worlds, and pets are only programmed to naturally roam the open areas of the world included with C&D. In Sims 2, and Sims 3 nothing was explicitly restricted to one area (aside from University which is not a main world activity anyway) and content from EP’s could be freely added or removed from any given world.
Well, again, are these restrictions based on the engine or design choices? Something like City Living and the features that came with that pack I understand from a design perspective for these features to only be available in San Myshuno, specifically the festivals. Apartments would've been nice to have as an available option across all the worlds I will admit (is the lack of an option to have apartments in other worlds an engine restriction?), but something like the festivals make sense to appear on an off the lot location within the new world that came with the pack. Would you really want these festivals showing up in other worlds? To me it doesn't really matter because I'm not restricted to what worlds I can visit. If Sims 4 was similar to Sims 3 in regards to only being able to play in one world per save then I could completely understand these limitations, but City Livings main features, the city, the apartments, the festivals, are all accessible in any situation in any save file.
As for something like Get Together invites only showing up for Windenburg locations I'm not entirely sure about. This I actually do get annoyed by, how come my sims never get invited to a dance club that I've placed in San Myshuno or Oasis Springs? I've also noticed that clubs only seem to autonomously appear within Windenburg as well, another annoyance of mine, why don't clubs I've created that have specific locations set not show up at that location when I visit that location? Design choice? Or limitation?
Active careers being restricted to inaccessible areas I can understand as a design choice, even if it is a restriction I don't really mind, the lot is there, I visit it when I need to go to work, I go home. I don't really see the benefit of placing workplace lots in other locations but that's just me.
Pets only showing up in Brindleton Bay I'm 100% certain that it's a design choice and not an engine restriction. Someone made a mod that enables strays to show up in other worlds, as well as sims walking their dogs in other worlds. Why they designed the pack this way by default is completely beyond me. I would love to see a few strays here and there in the other worlds, especially dog owners walking their dogs in other worlds, it would be great for immersion.
So again, is the Sims 4 engine really as restrictive as people make it out to be? Or are people confusing design choices with engine limitations?
@filipomel - you keep asking if it's restrictive or a design choice. Even if it's a design choice, it's still a restriction on players. Not letting them to play their way or rule - as was the slogan for TS4 - is a huge restriction. So whether or not the engine is restricted or it's simply a design choice, those choices are hindering to some styles of play.
I completely agree with what you are saying. But I was just pointing out the possibility that maybe the engine isn't as restricted as some people make it out to be. You are right though, if a lot of these restrictions are design choices and not necessarily based on the engine, why not open up these features a bit more?
Actually, now that I think about it. Drake was on a panel this summer and I believe that she even stated that certain things that the community want can't be implemented due to technology; which I took to be the engine. Let me see if I can the article @filipomel
Edit: Found it HERE. It's the very last question. I'd say that is an indication that the engine is somewhat restricted.
No, I would never support The Sims series like those other 'service' games. I will tell you why. The game would be locked into the tech it has today, and would be bound by what the engine can do and how much your pc or tablet could stand. Tomorrow there are new and exciting ways to develop games, and I would hate to see The Sims locked into what we have right now....it would dampen the ability to add new and exciting technology which could allow Sims to do more than they ever did. I mean I'm sure somebody somewhere wants a virtual reality Sim game, don't you think? I wouldn't but I can see how others might want to actually be their Sim. Weird but I'm sure some do.
Heck, you/we don't know, in two years there might a whole different way to develop games rather than even using the old Python system (TS4) or Visual C+++ software etc. I really believe it would only harm the series in the long run just to continue this game like WOW or something else and just keep going....new software and engines and systems is a better way to go in my opinion and dump what is a has- been by standards of tomorrow< meaning there may be something better than Visual C+ sooner than later.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
No, I would never support The Sims series like those other 'service' games. I will tell you why. The game would be locked into the tech it has today, and would be bound by what the engine can do and how much your pc or tablet could stand. Tomorrow there are new and exciting ways to develop games, and I would hate to see The Sims locked into what we have right now....it would dampen the ability to add new and exciting technology which could allow Sims to do more than they ever did. I mean I'm sure somebody somewhere wants a virtual reality Sim game, don't you think? I wouldn't but I can see how others might want to actually be their Sim. Weird but I'm sure some do.
Heck, you/we don't know, in two years there might a whole different way to develop games rather than even using the old Python system (TS4) or Visual C+++ software etc. I really believe it would only harm the series in the long run just to continue this game like WOW or something else and just keep going....new software and engines and systems is a better way to go in my opinion and dump what is a has- been by standards of tomorrow< meaning there may be something better than Visual C+ sooner than later.
While I'm not arguing that new and better ways to create or innovate new games isn't possible - coding itself hasn't changed that much in that its the building block of all digital technology. Its such a fundamental basis - that I can only see it evolving into possibly neuron programming or A.I programming where you give it a task and it creates it for you (both are purely theoretical).
Instead for now I believe technology will continue to build/update itself in steps - think of the unreal engine for graphics for example - sure the unreal engine 4 - its basically just building on its own older technology.
For gaming to evolve I think the closest thing we will have in the next 20 years is immersive sensory VR or holo suites (yes I'm serious) but boy...when games go down that path, titles like the Sims will probably be something completely different then what we are playing. I think it will completely change what gaming "is". Even Sims in our current VR technology takes on a very...strange tone since your basically going to be in the same room with your sims...no matter what uncomfortable thing their doing.
So...ya while I agree that technology should keep evolving I think it will be a long time before we see what your suggesting.
Comments
I completely agree with what you are saying. But I was just pointing out the possibility that maybe the engine isn't as restricted as some people make it out to be. You are right though, if a lot of these restrictions are design choices and not necessarily based on the engine, why not open up these features a bit more?
The engine is a product of their own design. So at the basic level yeah to answer your question it is a design choice, but when new features are added the engine has to be modified to accommodate them, and it is not always feasible to make large scale changes that must be made to get particular features in. In that regard having an engine that doesn’t offer much without a lot of work is limited. Sims 4 excels at certain things, and falls flat with others. It’s obvious their packs don’t get adequate funding which influences their designs to accodate the limitations of the engine instead of building something more complex. I.e. apartments
Actually, now that I think about it. Drake was on a panel this summer and I believe that she even stated that certain things that the community want can't be implemented due to technology; which I took to be the engine. Let me see if I can the article @filipomel
Edit: Found it HERE. It's the very last question. I'd say that is an indication that the engine is somewhat restricted.
Heck, you/we don't know, in two years there might a whole different way to develop games rather than even using the old Python system (TS4) or Visual C+++ software etc. I really believe it would only harm the series in the long run just to continue this game like WOW or something else and just keep going....new software and engines and systems is a better way to go in my opinion and dump what is a has- been by standards of tomorrow< meaning there may be something better than Visual C+ sooner than later.
While I'm not arguing that new and better ways to create or innovate new games isn't possible - coding itself hasn't changed that much in that its the building block of all digital technology. Its such a fundamental basis - that I can only see it evolving into possibly neuron programming or A.I programming where you give it a task and it creates it for you (both are purely theoretical).
Instead for now I believe technology will continue to build/update itself in steps - think of the unreal engine for graphics for example - sure the unreal engine 4 - its basically just building on its own older technology.
For gaming to evolve I think the closest thing we will have in the next 20 years is immersive sensory VR or holo suites (yes I'm serious) but boy...when games go down that path, titles like the Sims will probably be something completely different then what we are playing. I think it will completely change what gaming "is". Even Sims in our current VR technology takes on a very...strange tone since your basically going to be in the same room with your sims...no matter what uncomfortable thing their doing.
So...ya while I agree that technology should keep evolving I think it will be a long time before we see what your suggesting.