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Would you support Sims 4 under a service model?
TOLKIEN
Posts: 1,594 Member
So as I was thinking about things I'd still like to see in the Sims 4, it reminded me of a interview former Maxis producer Ryan Vaughan made about how the Sims 4 is module and allows for easier patching and expansion then previous games. From a programming point of view I assume this has much to do with how each "section" of the game is partition off into "zones" (aka think load screens) and yes it is easier to produce and debug content when its more easily "controlled".
Right now the current climate of the most financially successful games are as a service, games as a service means you create one game and instead of making a "new" version every few years you continuously just keep updating and adding to it. The most famous example is World of Warcraft but others include Fortnite, Overwatch, League of Legends, Path of Exile and many others.
In a sense its like having a MMO where you just keep adding expansions to it...
It was announced today during EA's earnings call that "Sims 4 player base grew more than 35% year-over-year in FY18 Q3, and stated that The Sims 4 “delivered the highest performing expansion pack to date during the quarter”"
So if the Sims is on a roll right now...it might not make sense to be working on The Sims 5 - if the Sims 4 can be grown via packs and expansions year of year hence maintaining the game "as a service" as more copies are sold and more people play the Sims 4.
At this point the only really "new thing" the Sims 5 could do is add more realistic graphics and open worlds but then they face player hardware issues since most Simmers are running on laptops...well lets just say with current "intel/amd" issues (google "spectre") consumers computers are about to get a lot slower then faster. Plus 3D is still an expensive gimmick and open worlds COULD be still brought to the Sims 4. (I'm not even going into the nightmare "heights" would mean for development)
Honestly a lot could still be changed or added for the Sims 4 base code (like color wheel, ect)...although the amount of programming/re-coding to add some features I can't speak to.
So with all that in mind, would you support a "service" model for the Sims 4 that saw the game further expanded over the next 4 to 6 years?
Right now the current climate of the most financially successful games are as a service, games as a service means you create one game and instead of making a "new" version every few years you continuously just keep updating and adding to it. The most famous example is World of Warcraft but others include Fortnite, Overwatch, League of Legends, Path of Exile and many others.
In a sense its like having a MMO where you just keep adding expansions to it...
It was announced today during EA's earnings call that "Sims 4 player base grew more than 35% year-over-year in FY18 Q3, and stated that The Sims 4 “delivered the highest performing expansion pack to date during the quarter”"
So if the Sims is on a roll right now...it might not make sense to be working on The Sims 5 - if the Sims 4 can be grown via packs and expansions year of year hence maintaining the game "as a service" as more copies are sold and more people play the Sims 4.
At this point the only really "new thing" the Sims 5 could do is add more realistic graphics and open worlds but then they face player hardware issues since most Simmers are running on laptops...well lets just say with current "intel/amd" issues (google "spectre") consumers computers are about to get a lot slower then faster. Plus 3D is still an expensive gimmick and open worlds COULD be still brought to the Sims 4. (I'm not even going into the nightmare "heights" would mean for development)
Honestly a lot could still be changed or added for the Sims 4 base code (like color wheel, ect)...although the amount of programming/re-coding to add some features I can't speak to.
So with all that in mind, would you support a "service" model for the Sims 4 that saw the game further expanded over the next 4 to 6 years?
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If I recall correctly that was more inflection about patching The Sims 4 more constantly then previous games, although in a sense the Sims 4 has always been a sorta "service" model game with its expansions and stuff packs. The difference here would be dedicating all Maxis "sim development" resources to the Sims 4 as the "only" Sims game in (continuous) development - aka no Sims 5.
Personally I'd support seeing the Sims 4 take this path, mostly because no matter what the Sims 5 is - it will take years for it to be fleshed out just like every other Sims game. Where in the Sims 4 could still see much content added.
I think if they do pursue this however, they should look into updating the game to support 4K in the future like other service games have. This way we'd get better graphics by them updating the textures.
Sims 3 was my favorite immersion-wise, there were a lot of very specific things available. If Sims 4 continued the way you mentioned, it could easily be that way as well as being MUCH easier to run.
I do really miss open world though ):
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
I dont think Sims 5 will be happening until people know whats up with VR tech anyway lmao they dont want to come out with a new non compatible series only for VR to make everything else yesterdays boring news
-Cars Update
-Spiral/Diagonal Stairs Update
-Hotel Pack
-Romance Pack (possibly combined with Hotel Pack)
-Bands Pack
-Royalty Pack
-Fashion Design Pack
-Fairies Pack
-Werewolf Pack
-France-inspired World
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I’m curious to understand what exactly you mean by a weaker foundation. At launch I can completely understand this idea, but now that the games been updated and with packs released, I would say the engine (with whatever limitations it may have) has proven itself very useful and quite advanced in many aspects of the game.
I'll field this.
When I say "weak foundation" I mean the underlying engine is incapable of delivering certain features that I consider to be fundamental. I'm not talking about adding laundry or pets, I'm talking about not supporting open worlds (which isn't too much to ask for in 2018) and terrain editing.
And then there's the issue of optimization, which is lackluster to say the least and certainly the reason why we don't have an open world. It's also the most likely reason we still don't have seasons--the engine simply can't cope.
I don't want the game to be held back by such constraints in perpetuity, as it would be if it transitioned to a service model.
I don't think the issues TS4 has is due to the engine. It's probably due to design choices and a lack of fixing issues as they arise.
I mean The Sims 2 engine was able to be turned into The Sims 3.
The Urbz engine was used to make The Sims 3 on Wii, which is Open World and has Kids, Teens etc. whereas the Urbz had none of that.
This of how many games are made using Unreal Engine.
I think its more of a case of design choices. I don't think the engine and foundation is limited at all.
The game has changed so much since launch, that I feel like they could do so much more if they put the work in.
Exactly. Play the 2014 version of TS4 and it feels like another game. People don't realize how much the AI and everything about the game has changed.
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I agree
Oh they realize it. They just ignore it.
Yes! Well said. Couldn’t agree more.
With the exception of minor tuning to two reactions (only death and jealousy) the game’s AI is largely unchanged. Adding in pools, toddlers, or dishwashers isn’t changing the AI, or expanding upon the game engine’s foundation. So I think you are attributing too much change to the game, when in all reality they have filled it out with stuff, and not changed much at all.
AI is still terrible, as it has been since launch. The game still has the same restrictions now that it did in 2014 - even more so when you look at how DLC has been sectioned off in-game and is only available in certain areas under other restrictions. For a Sims game The Sims 4 has the most incapable game engine. Does not matter if people like the game, that’s irrelevant, the engine is subpar and will always be subpar. After all it was built for an online social game, or are you ignoring that?
I don't care about ts4, it can go on forever I have a good game elsewhere to play. For the Sims series though I would have to say no.
Ts4 goes on for too long and odds are I'm going to be too far gone to even notice if a ts5 were to be released. This saddens me because I grew up with the Sims and love the idea behind it. (really wish there were more options on the market)
Aside from my disinterest in ts4:
I also don't actually like it when developers keep tampering with my game. I can buy the game in one condition thinking I'm aware of it's bugs and be fine with them, then the next month be dealing with some new bug I can't stand, and only maybe was a bug I cared about before dealt with. I also don't, like how it let's the company use my game as a marketing platform.
It also requires downloading stuff constantly which where I live you have to pay for, and while one patch won't put me over my limit, in between other games stuff for work and general Internet use, I do have to watch how much I download.
I buy a game to own it, not to have it changed at the Dev whims and advertise itself to me constantly. Even with ts4 I get plumed off with all the patches
On the whole, I feel like the pay to play and the new expectation that a game can always be re accessed by the developer is ruining games in general. It matters less if a game is shipped out buggy or incomplete because new stuff can be patched in and fixed latter, and people may even thank you for giving them something that should have been in the base game.
Edit: I just read about potential monthly subscriptions. If that happened I would say plum no, and walk away laughing, I wouldn't even look back.
But my question is, is the engine really truly limited? Or does the design of the game make it seem so because it’s “sectioned off” as you say (when you say sectioned off what exactly do you mean? I think I have an idea but just want some personal clarification on your part)? The only areas of the game that have proven “limited” is adding back an open world, adding back a colour wheel, and possibly adding terrain tools, everything else however, feature-wise, seems completely possible. And the only reason why open world and colour wheel aren’t in the game is because that was the design choice to do so. I’m sure if they developed hard enough they could add those features back in with enough time money and effort.
This.
Anyone pretending the AI has improved is fooling themselves. Have a sim cheat on their spouse in front of them. Watch as they react with...wait for it a moodlet
But that's it. No confrontation, physical or verbal. Then watch as the sim becomes happy (if they have even changed emotions) because they went into a nicely decorated room. Then for even more fun have your sim go off and woohoo with their cheating spouse right away because they can..because they don't care.
In depth stuff. Also for kicks watch as the same thing happens when a family member dies.
I think The game is already a live service of sorts. They have confirmed it already and with the trickle of paid dlc that is coming each quarter it's not far off loot boxes and other similar in game purchases. It's not a practise I support with any game least of all the sims. It's ripping the customer off.
I disagree strongly that the sims 4 will look good in years to come. If the sims 5 is released and is more realistic style everyone will be the first to say the sims 4 cartoon style looks garbage. The sims 3 world still look better and more realistic because of the style it uses.
For example, take City Living: it’s two big key selling points were apartments, and festivals. Neither are available outside of the world included with CL - they are sectioned off from the remainder of the game. Similarly, invites in GT really only work for the GT locations (bluffs, ruins, Mansion). Active careers are only available in their sectioned off worlds, and pets are only programmed to naturally roam the open areas of the world included with C&D. In Sims 2, and Sims 3 nothing was explicitly restricted to one area (aside from University which is not a main world activity anyway) and content from EP’s could be freely added or removed from any given world.
every time they come out with something "new" for the game, i experience a problem of one kind or other. additional content that i've paid for becomes buggy and unusable as intended. i stopped buying sp's and gp's due to how unstable they are and how they create problems with my game. due in large part, because they rush things out before they are ready. just to make more money.
i'm not even sure if i want to invest in sims 5 when it comes out. i've had so many problems with sims 4, that the franchise has lost a lot of my trust in their ability (or desire) to put out a stable and reliable game.
I've had many physical confrontations for cheating sims. I even have a video uploaded to my YouTube featuring such a confrontation (a video too inappropriate to share on these forums because of course language), a sim cheated on his spouse only to be bombarded with slaps and yelling from the spouse, only for later the spouse to die of anger. My sim died of anger because she was cheated on. The AI isn't perfect for sure, but it isn't something that can't be fine tuned. My biggest issue right now with the AI is when Sims choose to walk unnecessary lengths to fulfil a task, cleaning the dishes for example, there is a perfect sink and dish washer in the kitchen next room, yet they decide to walk up to the upstairs bathroom to clean the dishes there. Or when I tell a sim to do said task, walks across the lot to greet some random sim, to then perform the task. And then there's obviously the bugs that interfere with how sims behave, I've encountered a lot of bugs with interacting with toddlers lately. But besides that, the bugs, I find the AI to be fine, maybe sims reactions to events isn't as dramatic as previous games, but again, nothing that can't be fixed.
Well, again, are these restrictions based on the engine or design choices? Something like City Living and the features that came with that pack I understand from a design perspective for these features to only be available in San Myshuno, specifically the festivals. Apartments would've been nice to have as an available option across all the worlds I will admit (is the lack of an option to have apartments in other worlds an engine restriction?), but something like the festivals make sense to appear on an off the lot location within the new world that came with the pack. Would you really want these festivals showing up in other worlds? To me it doesn't really matter because I'm not restricted to what worlds I can visit. If Sims 4 was similar to Sims 3 in regards to only being able to play in one world per save then I could completely understand these limitations, but City Livings main features, the city, the apartments, the festivals, are all accessible in any situation in any save file.
As for something like Get Together invites only showing up for Windenburg locations I'm not entirely sure about. This I actually do get annoyed by, how come my sims never get invited to a dance club that I've placed in San Myshuno or Oasis Springs? I've also noticed that clubs only seem to autonomously appear within Windenburg as well, another annoyance of mine, why don't clubs I've created that have specific locations set not show up at that location when I visit that location? Design choice? Or limitation?
Active careers being restricted to inaccessible areas I can understand as a design choice, even if it is a restriction I don't really mind, the lot is there, I visit it when I need to go to work, I go home. I don't really see the benefit of placing workplace lots in other locations but that's just me.
Pets only showing up in Brindleton Bay I'm 100% certain that it's a design choice and not an engine restriction. Someone made a mod that enables strays to show up in other worlds, as well as sims walking their dogs in other worlds. Why they designed the pack this way by default is completely beyond me. I would love to see a few strays here and there in the other worlds, especially dog owners walking their dogs in other worlds, it would be great for immersion.
So again, is the Sims 4 engine really as restrictive as people make it out to be? Or are people confusing design choices with engine limitations?
Nope, the core simulation stayed pretty much the same. This is why I immediately liked TS4 at its launch better than TS2 or TS3 as the simulation is much more basic in these games.
The Sims is a life simulation game and it’s about simulating people. TS3 has both open world and terrain editing and yet its foundation is much weaker than TS4 because the simulation is just awfully poor in that game.