I think they are mostly already doing this service model in the form of live service. I think it will run much longer than normally because of this and I support that I want this run as complete as possible in terms of life simulation before it ends it's run. I'm also hoping they explore areas they haven't yet in the past.. we have had some of that but hoping for much more to come.
I think the sales will stay up better this way also for this model. New customer/simmers come in and have to play catch up to buy all that's there.. even if on sale they are digital sales and the content has already been produced. Their job is to keep the patches as new content is released. I think it cost less overall also for a company to produce a game in this manner.. so therefore they make more money for a longer period off of one base engine concept and design. Yes they will lose some customers that don't like it... umm that happens everywhere you can't please everyone but it seems they are pleasing more than enough to capitalize on. That's what business is about at it's core.. making money. It just smarts when you are the one not being pleased.
I do think there will be a successor eventually and it will probably follow this model with more tweaks added from what they learned this time around. I hope its a number of years into the future though. I want this one to go on until it doesn't make sense to continue to create it as was indicated in the past.
I would definitely support this. A new game bringing back the same features every 4 years is getting old for me.
I agree with this, i would not mind if sims 4 lasted for 10 more years even though i dont play it and only own the base game.
I hope we are done with this trend of starting over almost every half decade.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I don't think the issues TS4 has is due to the engine. It's probably due to design choices and a lack of fixing issues as they arise.
I mean The Sims 2 engine was able to be turned into The Sims 3.
The Urbz engine was used to make The Sims 3 on Wii, which is Open World and has Kids, Teens etc. whereas the Urbz had none of that.
This of how many games are made using Unreal Engine.
I think its more of a case of design choices. I don't think the engine and foundation is limited at all.
The game has changed so much since launch, that I feel like they could do so much more if they put the work in.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I’m curious to understand what exactly you mean by a weaker foundation. At launch I can completely understand this idea, but now that the games been updated and with packs released, I would say the engine (with whatever limitations it may have) has proven itself very useful and quite advanced in many aspects of the game.
Exactly. Play the 2014 version of TS4 and it feels like another game. People don't realize how much the AI and everything about the game has changed.
Nope, the core simulation stayed pretty much the same. This is why I immediately liked TS4 at its launch better than TS2 or TS3 as the simulation is much more basic in these games.
When I say "weak foundation" I mean the underlying engine is incapable of delivering certain features that I consider to be fundamental. I'm not talking about adding laundry or pets, I'm talking about not supporting open worlds (which isn't too much to ask for in 2018) and terrain editing.
The Sims is a life simulation game and it’s about simulating people. TS3 has both open world and terrain editing and yet its foundation is much weaker than TS4 because the simulation is just awfully poor in that game.
That’s a terribly simple statement.
The simulation in TS3 is far more complex than all of the other games. For the first time in the history of the series, an entire world of Sims is being simulated at once. Even off-screen, there are Sims doing their own thing. They have their own REAL jobs (and not some made up ones like TS4), and will actually go to said jobs at the correct time slots before actually driving home when the time comes.
This is far more advanced than The Sims 4, where everything is essentially an illusion. Sims are assigned careers on the fly, you’ll see children hanging around the neighborhood despite the fact school is supposedly to be in session, they walk around the neighborhood for no point, etc.
The one major part where The Sims 3 falls short is optimization. That cannot be confused with weak or poor simulation.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I don't think the issues TS4 has is due to the engine. It's probably due to design choices and a lack of fixing issues as they arise.
I mean The Sims 2 engine was able to be turned into The Sims 3.
The Urbz engine was used to make The Sims 3 on Wii, which is Open World and has Kids, Teens etc. whereas the Urbz had none of that.
This of how many games are made using Unreal Engine.
I think its more of a case of design choices. I don't think the engine and foundation is limited at all.
The game has changed so much since launch, that I feel like they could do so much more if they put the work in.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I’m curious to understand what exactly you mean by a weaker foundation. At launch I can completely understand this idea, but now that the games been updated and with packs released, I would say the engine (with whatever limitations it may have) has proven itself very useful and quite advanced in many aspects of the game.
Exactly. Play the 2014 version of TS4 and it feels like another game. People don't realize how much the AI and everything about the game has changed.
Oh they realize it. They just ignore it.
With the exception of minor tuning to two reactions (only death and jealousy) the game’s AI is largely unchanged. Adding in pools, toddlers, or dishwashers isn’t changing the AI, or expanding upon the game engine’s foundation. So I think you are attributing too much change to the game, when in all reality they have filled it out with stuff, and not changed much at all.
AI is still terrible, as it has been since launch. The game still has the same restrictions now that it did in 2014 - even more so when you look at how DLC has been sectioned off in-game and is only available in certain areas under other restrictions. For a Sims game The Sims 4 has the most incapable game engine. Does not matter if people like the game, that’s irrelevant, the engine is subpar and will always be subpar. After all it was built for an online social game, or are you ignoring that?
This.
Anyone pretending the AI has improved is fooling themselves. Have a sim cheat on their spouse in front of them. Watch as they react with...wait for it a moodlet
But that's it. No confrontation, physical or verbal. Then watch as the sim becomes happy (if they have even changed emotions) because they went into a nicely decorated room. Then for even more fun have your sim go off and woohoo with their cheating spouse right away because they can..because they don't care.
In depth stuff. Also for kicks watch as the same thing happens when a family member dies.
I think The game is already a live service of sorts. They have confirmed it already and with the trickle of paid dlc that is coming each quarter it's not far off loot boxes and other similar in game purchases. It's not a practise I support with any game least of all the sims. It's ripping the customer off.
I disagree strongly that the sims 4 will look good in years to come. If the sims 5 is released and is more realistic style everyone will be the first to say the sims 4 cartoon style looks garbage. The sims 3 world still look better and more realistic because of the style it uses.
This. They need to improve on how sims react to situations, short term and long term. If i want my sim to be mad at a cheating spouse, I have to force it but even still they will autonomously do friendly interactions with each other. Sims should be yelling and fighting with each other after getting cheated on and crying and stay sad/angry. Sometimes they go to bed and cry (which is just hiding under the sheet so we can't even see them be upset) if the sad moodlet doesnt get overwritten by other pointless moodlets.
And its not just affairs that they need to be improved upon. Relationships with enemies and handling death are both pretty weak. Enemies in the past use to come and steal your newspaper and kick over your trashcan and start 🐸🐸🐸🐸 with you. We dont need open world for that so why cant we get things like that? And when sims dont even care when other sims die. They'll stop to witness it (sometimes) and carry on with their business like nothing happened. They also just need to improve on getting sims to come and watch an event (like weddings, birthdays, or deaths) without walking away.
The moodlets are so pointless. I feel like their ruining the game.
The simulation in TS3 is far more complex than all of the other games. For the first time in the history of the series, an entire world of Sims is being simulated at once. Even off-screen, there are Sims doing their own thing. They have their own REAL jobs (and not some made up ones like TS4), and will actually go to said jobs at the correct time slots before actually driving home when the time comes.
This is far more advanced than The Sims 4, where everything is essentially an illusion. Sims are assigned careers on the fly, you’ll see children hanging around the neighborhood despite the fact school is supposedly to be in session, they walk around the neighborhood for no point, etc.
The one major part where The Sims 3 falls short is optimization. That cannot be confused with weak or poor simulation.
SimCity simulates far more Sims at once than TS3 and they also have their own jobs / doing their own stuff off-screen. I guess that's a better life simulation game. right? Lol.
Simulating a whole town is meaningless when each Sim's simulation is so weak. TS4 has far more advanced simulation of the Sims themselves.
Examples:
* The closest we have to a "consciousness" system. TS4's multitasking system constantly, actively searches for actions on the posture graph, giving Sims a much stronger sense of awareness. For instance, when a Sim plays on a computer and another Sim walks across the room, the Sim on the computer would move their head to say hi to the other Sim. This is possible because the multitasking system constantly, actively search for available actions. When two Sims are talking to each other standing up, they may decide to sit on the couch nearby while continuing talking to each other. Once again this is because the multitasking system constantly, actively searches on the posture graph. People make fun of TS4 Sims playing musical chair, but the truth is that TS2 or TS3 would dream to have such advanced problem as their simulation is far more basic.
* Better animation system. People always say TS4 Sims have more expressive animation. This isn't just because the animation is better made, but because better tech is used to determine how the animation is played and when the animation is played.
* More advanced situation-dependent autonomy system. Sims in TS3 for example can't remotely behave as properly/as coordinated on public lots as the ones in TS4. In a TS4 Spa, the first thing Sims do after arriving is to change into towels before starting to do spa activities. In a TS4 gym, Sims will take a shower after workout and then change back into their regular clothes before leaving. This is possible because the visitors transition between different stages of autonomy situations. Meanwhile TS3 Sims just randomly, aimlessly use the objects on the lots. It's simply incapable of simulating a very organized situation.
The simulation in TS3 is far more complex than all of the other games. For the first time in the history of the series, an entire world of Sims is being simulated at once. Even off-screen, there are Sims doing their own thing. They have their own REAL jobs (and not some made up ones like TS4), and will actually go to said jobs at the correct time slots before actually driving home when the time comes.
This is far more advanced than The Sims 4, where everything is essentially an illusion. Sims are assigned careers on the fly, you’ll see children hanging around the neighborhood despite the fact school is supposedly to be in session, they walk around the neighborhood for no point, etc.
The one major part where The Sims 3 falls short is optimization. That cannot be confused with weak or poor simulation.
SimCity simulates far more Sims at once than TS3 and they also have their own jobs / doing their own stuff off-screen. I guess that's a better life simulation game. right? Lol.
Simulating a whole town is meaningless when each Sim's simulation is so weak. TS4 has far more advanced simulation of the Sims themselves.
Examples:
* The closest we have to a "consciousness" system. TS4's multitasking system constantly, actively searches for actions on the posture graph, giving Sims a much stronger sense of awareness. For instance, when a Sim plays on a computer and another Sim walks across the room, the Sim on the computer would move their head to say hi to the other Sim. This is possible because the multitasking system constantly, actively search for available actions. When two Sims are talking to each other standing up, they may decide to sit on the couch nearby while continuing talking to each other. Once again this is because the multitasking system constantly, actively searches on the posture graph. People make fun of TS4 Sims playing musical chair, but the truth is that TS2 or TS3 would dream to have such advanced problem as their simulation is far more basic.
* Better animation system. People always say TS4 Sims have more expressive animation. This isn't just because the animation is better made, but because better tech is used to determine how the animation is played and when the animation is played.
* More advanced situation-dependent autonomy system. Sims in TS3 for example can't remotely behave as properly/as coordinated on public lots as the ones in TS4. In a TS4 Spa, the first thing Sims do after arriving is to change into towels before starting to do spa activities. In a TS4 gym, Sims will take a shower after workout and then change back into their regular clothes before leaving. This is possible because the visitors transition between different stages of autonomy situations. Meanwhile TS3 Sims just randomly, aimlessly use the objects on the lots. It's simply incapable of simulating a very organized situation.
So I’m guessing that when sims “dance together” and one is at one side if the room and the other sim, the other side and their backs are to each other this’s the “advanced awareness system?” When sims talk socially when they aren’t facing each other?
Believe me the sims 2 and 3 don’t dream of the musical chairs bug because it’s a bug. It’s unrealistic, unnatural and darn annoying.
Sim city is not the best example of AI done well. In sim city 2013 each sim had a job that changed every day and a home that changed, each sim just went to the nearest work place and home. It was never consistent and caused bugs. It was one of the things Cities Skylines is praised for that each cim has a designated home and work place and has a life cycle from birth to death.
The simulation in TS3 is far more complex than all of the other games. For the first time in the history of the series, an entire world of Sims is being simulated at once. Even off-screen, there are Sims doing their own thing. They have their own REAL jobs (and not some made up ones like TS4), and will actually go to said jobs at the correct time slots before actually driving home when the time comes.
This is far more advanced than The Sims 4, where everything is essentially an illusion. Sims are assigned careers on the fly, you’ll see children hanging around the neighborhood despite the fact school is supposedly to be in session, they walk around the neighborhood for no point, etc.
The one major part where The Sims 3 falls short is optimization. That cannot be confused with weak or poor simulation.
SimCity simulates far more Sims at once than TS3 and they also have their own jobs / doing their own stuff off-screen. I guess that's a better life simulation game. right? Lol.
Simulating a whole town is meaningless when each Sim's simulation is so weak. TS4 has far more advanced simulation of the Sims themselves.
Examples:
* The closest we have to a "consciousness" system. TS4's multitasking system constantly, actively searches for actions on the posture graph, giving Sims a much stronger sense of awareness. For instance, when a Sim plays on a computer and another Sim walks across the room, the Sim on the computer would move their head to say hi to the other Sim. This is possible because the multitasking system constantly, actively search for available actions. When two Sims are talking to each other standing up, they may decide to sit on the couch nearby while continuing talking to each other. Once again this is because the multitasking system constantly, actively searches on the posture graph. People make fun of TS4 Sims playing musical chair, but the truth is that TS2 or TS3 would dream to have such advanced problem as their simulation is far more basic.
* Better animation system. People always say TS4 Sims have more expressive animation. This isn't just because the animation is better made, but because better tech is used to determine how the animation is played and when the animation is played.
* More advanced situation-dependent autonomy system. Sims in TS3 for example can't remotely behave as properly/as coordinated on public lots as the ones in TS4. In a TS4 Spa, the first thing Sims do after arriving is to change into towels before starting to do spa activities. In a TS4 gym, Sims will take a shower after workout and then change back into their regular clothes before leaving. This is possible because the visitors transition between different stages of autonomy situations. Meanwhile TS3 Sims just randomly, aimlessly use the objects on the lots. It's simply incapable of simulating a very organized situation.
They’re both simulation games, but SimCity is obviously a city simulator by definition because the design of the game is surrounded around the simulation and functions of a city. The Sims, particularly, The Sims 3, is actually simulating people, even people that are not being actively played, as I highlighted in my post. Their Needs, career, and virtually every other aspect of their life are being simulated at once. That constitutes calling it a life simulator, and an advanced one, too.
The Sims 4 features brand new animations, whereas The Sims 3 recycled many from The Sims 2. Unfortunately, all of that goes to waste when you have a broken emotion system and moodlet system that has very little impact on the actual game itself. I don’t really know of this better tech you’re speaking about, because the emotion system is basically reading right off of the recycled moodlet system of The Sims 3, and then pulling that information to assign an overall emotion onto the Sim. There’s a new system in place for sure, but I don’t understand how this can be called better tech, when my Sims still won’t respond to their environment to the greater degree of decade-old Sims from TS2.
Unfortunately, that “advanced autonomy system” is the same we’ve gotten before. It’s no different than The Sims 3. If I send my Sim to the library, Sims will read books. If I go to the gym, Sims will work out. It’s no different than in The Sims 4. From what the developers have said, certain objects are designed to attract more Sims than others (which has caused issues in the past with objects such as the woodworking bench).
The simulation in TS3 is far more complex than all of the other games. For the first time in the history of the series, an entire world of Sims is being simulated at once. Even off-screen, there are Sims doing their own thing. They have their own REAL jobs (and not some made up ones like TS4), and will actually go to said jobs at the correct time slots before actually driving home when the time comes.
This is far more advanced than The Sims 4, where everything is essentially an illusion. Sims are assigned careers on the fly, you’ll see children hanging around the neighborhood despite the fact school is supposedly to be in session, they walk around the neighborhood for no point, etc.
The one major part where The Sims 3 falls short is optimization. That cannot be confused with weak or poor simulation.
SimCity simulates far more Sims at once than TS3 and they also have their own jobs / doing their own stuff off-screen. I guess that's a better life simulation game. right? Lol.
Simulating a whole town is meaningless when each Sim's simulation is so weak. TS4 has far more advanced simulation of the Sims themselves.
Examples:
* The closest we have to a "consciousness" system. TS4's multitasking system constantly, actively searches for actions on the posture graph, giving Sims a much stronger sense of awareness. For instance, when a Sim plays on a computer and another Sim walks across the room, the Sim on the computer would move their head to say hi to the other Sim. This is possible because the multitasking system constantly, actively search for available actions. When two Sims are talking to each other standing up, they may decide to sit on the couch nearby while continuing talking to each other. Once again this is because the multitasking system constantly, actively searches on the posture graph. People make fun of TS4 Sims playing musical chair, but the truth is that TS2 or TS3 would dream to have such advanced problem as their simulation is far more basic.
* Better animation system. People always say TS4 Sims have more expressive animation. This isn't just because the animation is better made, but because better tech is used to determine how the animation is played and when the animation is played.
* More advanced situation-dependent autonomy system. Sims in TS3 for example can't remotely behave as properly/as coordinated on public lots as the ones in TS4. In a TS4 Spa, the first thing Sims do after arriving is to change into towels before starting to do spa activities. In a TS4 gym, Sims will take a shower after workout and then change back into their regular clothes before leaving. This is possible because the visitors transition between different stages of autonomy situations. Meanwhile TS3 Sims just randomly, aimlessly use the objects on the lots. It's simply incapable of simulating a very organized situation.
They’re both simulation games, but SimCity is obviously a city simulator by definition because the design of the game is surrounded around the simulation and functions of a city. The Sims, particularly, The Sims 3, is actually simulating people, even people that are not being actively played, as I highlighted in my post. Their Needs, career, and virtually every other aspect of their life are being simulated at once. That constitutes calling it a life simulator, and an advanced one, too.
The Sims 4 features brand new animations, whereas The Sims 3 recycled many from The Sims 2. Unfortunately, all of that goes to waste when you have a broken emotion system and moodlet system that has very little impact on the actual game itself. I don’t really know of this better tech you’re speaking about, because the emotion system is basically reading right off of the recycled moodlet system of The Sims 3, and then pulling that information to assign an overall emotion onto the Sim. There’s a new system in place for sure, but I don’t understand how this can be called better tech, when my Sims still won’t respond to their environment to the greater degree of decade-old Sims from TS2.
Unfortunately, that “advanced autonomy system” is the same we’ve gotten before. It’s no different than The Sims 3. If I send my Sim to the library, Sims will read books. If I go to the gym, Sims will work out. It’s no different than in The Sims 4. From what the developers have said, certain objects are designed to attract more Sims than others (which has caused issues in the past with objects such as the woodworking bench).
Exactly, that’s why the game has building restriction when building community lots. I,e bowling must be a bar, a park must have a chess table. It’s to attract sims to the lot to give it the illusion of looking busy when in actual fact in the sims 2 &3 I can build a park with say a roller rink, picnic tables and a bbq. Heck I can throw in a Dj booth and wedding arch. The point is no matter what I build, sims turn up and use the facilities. They aren’t called to it by an item like a bar or chess table or pc.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I don't think the issues TS4 has is due to the engine. It's probably due to design choices and a lack of fixing issues as they arise.
I mean The Sims 2 engine was able to be turned into The Sims 3.
The Urbz engine was used to make The Sims 3 on Wii, which is Open World and has Kids, Teens etc. whereas the Urbz had none of that.
This of how many games are made using Unreal Engine.
I think its more of a case of design choices. I don't think the engine and foundation is limited at all.
The game has changed so much since launch, that I feel like they could do so much more if they put the work in.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I’m curious to understand what exactly you mean by a weaker foundation. At launch I can completely understand this idea, but now that the games been updated and with packs released, I would say the engine (with whatever limitations it may have) has proven itself very useful and quite advanced in many aspects of the game.
Exactly. Play the 2014 version of TS4 and it feels like another game. People don't realize how much the AI and everything about the game has changed.
Oh they realize it. They just ignore it.
With the exception of minor tuning to two reactions (only death and jealousy) the game’s AI is largely unchanged. Adding in pools, toddlers, or dishwashers isn’t changing the AI, or expanding upon the game engine’s foundation. So I think you are attributing too much change to the game, when in all reality they have filled it out with stuff, and not changed much at all.
AI is still terrible, as it has been since launch. The game still has the same restrictions now that it did in 2014 - even more so when you look at how DLC has been sectioned off in-game and is only available in certain areas under other restrictions. For a Sims game The Sims 4 has the most incapable game engine. Does not matter if people like the game, that’s irrelevant, the engine is subpar and will always be subpar. After all it was built for an online social game, or are you ignoring that?
This.
Anyone pretending the AI has improved is fooling themselves. Have a sim cheat on their spouse in front of them. Watch as they react with...wait for it a moodlet
But that's it. No confrontation, physical or verbal. Then watch as the sim becomes happy (if they have even changed emotions) because they went into a nicely decorated room. Then for even more fun have your sim go off and woohoo with their cheating spouse right away because they can..because they don't care.
In depth stuff. Also for kicks watch as the same thing happens when a family member dies.
A lot of the AI is design choice, and could be changed. They could choose to create a more dramatic reaction to cheating; it's not the engine of the game preventing them from doing so. For a game such as Sims 2, the over-the-top, completely psychic reaction to cheating (the immediate slapping when a Sim flirts anywhere on the lot) was fun, but for Sims 4, I wouldn't enjoy it. Also, the devs could decide to tune or turn off the effects of decoration (which I already do with a mod). I also see appropriate reactions when family members die, everyone in the household is Sad for 2 days.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
Ok, challenge accepted. Oh, wait, that's what I've been doing ever since they released ITF, the last EP for the game so here I am with the results We're fine, Sims 3, my computer and me.
But to answer OP's question, "would you support a "service" model for the Sims 4 that saw the game further expanded over the next 4 to 6 years?" No. I want them to reset completely, reflect on their 'transgressions' and start all over again. As far as I'm concerned at this point the only really "new thing" the Sims 5 could do is deliver a worthy successor for Sims 1, 2 and 3. I doubt by the way there is a service in the world that can change or add things like colour wheel for the Sims 4 base code without breaking player's saves.
And if the AI changed, it's for the worse rather than for the better, if I may believe all the posts here concerning that.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I don't think the issues TS4 has is due to the engine. It's probably due to design choices and a lack of fixing issues as they arise.
I mean The Sims 2 engine was able to be turned into The Sims 3.
The Urbz engine was used to make The Sims 3 on Wii, which is Open World and has Kids, Teens etc. whereas the Urbz had none of that.
This of how many games are made using Unreal Engine.
I think its more of a case of design choices. I don't think the engine and foundation is limited at all.
The game has changed so much since launch, that I feel like they could do so much more if they put the work in.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I’m curious to understand what exactly you mean by a weaker foundation. At launch I can completely understand this idea, but now that the games been updated and with packs released, I would say the engine (with whatever limitations it may have) has proven itself very useful and quite advanced in many aspects of the game.
Exactly. Play the 2014 version of TS4 and it feels like another game. People don't realize how much the AI and everything about the game has changed.
Oh they realize it. They just ignore it.
With the exception of minor tuning to two reactions (only death and jealousy) the game’s AI is largely unchanged. Adding in pools, toddlers, or dishwashers isn’t changing the AI, or expanding upon the game engine’s foundation. So I think you are attributing too much change to the game, when in all reality they have filled it out with stuff, and not changed much at all.
AI is still terrible, as it has been since launch. The game still has the same restrictions now that it did in 2014 - even more so when you look at how DLC has been sectioned off in-game and is only available in certain areas under other restrictions. For a Sims game The Sims 4 has the most incapable game engine. Does not matter if people like the game, that’s irrelevant, the engine is subpar and will always be subpar. After all it was built for an online social game, or are you ignoring that?
This.
Anyone pretending the AI has improved is fooling themselves. Have a sim cheat on their spouse in front of them. Watch as they react with...wait for it a moodlet
But that's it. No confrontation, physical or verbal. Then watch as the sim becomes happy (if they have even changed emotions) because they went into a nicely decorated room. Then for even more fun have your sim go off and woohoo with their cheating spouse right away because they can..because they don't care.
In depth stuff. Also for kicks watch as the same thing happens when a family member dies.
A lot of the AI is design choice, and could be changed. They could choose to create a more dramatic reaction to cheating; it's not the engine of the game preventing them from doing so. For a game such as Sims 2, the over-the-top, completely psychic reaction to cheating (the immediate slapping when a Sim flirts anywhere on the lot) was fun, but for Sims 4, I wouldn't enjoy it. Also, the devs could decide to tune or turn off the effects of decoration (which I already do with a mod). I also see appropriate reactions when family members die, everyone in the household is Sad for 2 days.
For me, I will always take a reaction over no reaction or a moodlet;)
I don’t see appropriate reactions for deaths. Last time I played my elder Male died whilst some of his family were at school and work. You know the only person who cared? His teenage daughter because she was not at school that day. His wife came home tense from work and went for a bath then played the pc happily. She got sad a day later and that over ridden quickly by the happy emotion.
His other three kids were the same as they missed the death too. The game needs improvement in that area badly.
The Sims is a life simulation game and it’s about simulating people. TS3 has both open world and terrain editing and yet its foundation is much weaker than TS4 because the simulation is just awfully poor in that game.
Even if you believe this is true, it doesn't necessarily mean TS4 is the ideal platform going forward. IMO neither game has what I would consider the ideal foundation for a service model--although TS3 did try to include more features which I consider to be Sims "fundamentals".
But it doesn't have to be one or the other. There's a third option: Try again and do better. And show a little more ambition from the start this time.
Ok, challenge accepted. Oh, wait, that's what I've been doing ever since they released ITF, the last EP for the game so here I am with the results We're fine, Sims 3, my computer and me.
@JoAnne65 Genuinely curious... could you use the cheat "FPS on" in The Sims 3 and move around different lots in your game? What number range do you usually see it fall within?
Ok, challenge accepted. Oh, wait, that's what I've been doing ever since they released ITF, the last EP for the game so here I am with the results We're fine, Sims 3, my computer and me.
@JoAnne65 Genuinely curious... could you use the cheat "FPS on" in The Sims 3 and move around different lots in your game? What number range do you usually see it fall within?
@Sk8rblaze If you could see my face right now you’d laugh I don’t know that cheat? If I type that, will it all speak for itself..? Where do those numbers turn up?
Ok, challenge accepted. Oh, wait, that's what I've been doing ever since they released ITF, the last EP for the game so here I am with the results We're fine, Sims 3, my computer and me.
@JoAnne65 Genuinely curious... could you use the cheat "FPS on" in The Sims 3 and move around different lots in your game? What number range do you usually see it fall within?
@Sk8rblaze If you could see my face right now you’d laugh I don’t know that cheat? If I type that, will it all speak for itself..? Where do those numbers turn up?
Lol
It's not exactly a cheat, but it runs through the cheat console. Basically, it's going to enable your frames per second (FPS) to be shown in the upper left-hand corner. To disable it, it's "FPS off"
Ok, challenge accepted. Oh, wait, that's what I've been doing ever since they released ITF, the last EP for the game so here I am with the results We're fine, Sims 3, my computer and me.
@JoAnne65 Genuinely curious... could you use the cheat "FPS on" in The Sims 3 and move around different lots in your game? What number range do you usually see it fall within?
@Sk8rblaze If you could see my face right now you’d laugh I don’t know that cheat? If I type that, will it all speak for itself..? Where do those numbers turn up?
Lol
It's not exactly a cheat, but it runs through the cheat console. Basically, it's going to enable your frames per second (FPS) to be shown in the upper left-hand corner. To disable it, it's "FPS off"
Games run on this model usually require a monthly fee $$$. I am not up for paying to play. My broke self scrimps and saves until I can afford the packs I want. Plus, I don't want all the content in game available...I have no desire to own a giant rock climbing wall or slip 'n slide. I'm sorry to be kinda rude about this, but too many games are getting greedy in subscriptions, season passes, loot crates, etc. and as a result dishing out way more out of pocket.
In the long run I'd be paying more, not less. Even $9.99 a month equals to almost $120 a year. On average, I buy an expansion pack, game pack, and 2 stuff packs a year which only adds up to $80. Please do not give EA more ideas.
I would vote If they insisted on revamping previous games TS3 and TS2 with different engine (not sure If it's possible, If not to late, for TS4) and thus continue to update either one of the following games with flow of content, bug fixes and what not.
* The closest we have to a "consciousness" system. TS4's multitasking system constantly, actively searches for actions on the posture graph, giving Sims a much stronger sense of awareness. For instance, when a Sim plays on a computer and another Sim walks across the room, the Sim on the computer would move their head to say hi to the other Sim. This is possible because the multitasking system constantly, actively search for available actions. When two Sims are talking to each other standing up, they may decide to sit on the couch nearby while continuing talking to each other. Once again this is because the multitasking system constantly, actively searches on the posture graph. People make fun of TS4 Sims playing musical chair, but the truth is that TS2 or TS3 would dream to have such advanced problem as their simulation is far more basic.
* Better animation system. People always say TS4 Sims have more expressive animation. This isn't just because the animation is better made, but because better tech is used to determine how the animation is played and when the animation is played.
* More advanced situation-dependent autonomy system. Sims in TS3 for example can't remotely behave as properly/as coordinated on public lots as the ones in TS4. In a TS4 Spa, the first thing Sims do after arriving is to change into towels before starting to do spa activities. In a TS4 gym, Sims will take a shower after workout and then change back into their regular clothes before leaving. This is possible because the visitors transition between different stages of autonomy situations. Meanwhile TS3 Sims just randomly, aimlessly use the objects on the lots. It's simply incapable of simulating a very organized situation.
True, TS4 has better and expressive animations, but I would argue about the rest. In TS2, sims were aware of the irsurroundinds and did turn their heads to other pixel peeps when they're doing that preoccupied them physically. If not mistaken, but such as while carrying newspaper and eating. Using computer, however, wasn't just one of those instances when that could happen. I do wanna point that sims in TS4 don't really multitask, as I had argue from my picked up observation of the game in other thread, using a computer than to switch to TALK mode after they pull their hands away from keyboard&mouse doesn't meet the definition of that fancy new (<- NOT) "revoliutonary" mechanic of its term/word. Sim is not doing two or more tasks simultaniously, but rather unitasking and switching between the tasks with mini breaks. As for sims changing clothes in gym, I heard somebody report from their observation that towny sims particulary are programmed to do a certain randomly assigned task that goes as a rut and a routine, so there's no left unexpected behaviour from those sims and doesn't really go well on surprising the player, so that AI has of course some faults and fallacies that give bad rep in comparison between older games.
And I agree, they do have a very weak foundation that is so weak to the point it makes them admit, more or less indirectly, for choosing a such broken and fragile engine. Budget and technical limitations are always their go-to excuse for not (re)introducing a well build addition/feature to the game. Heck, they have yet to give.patch normal elevators animations we droll since CL brought them back. Babies are still tethered to basins with invisible short cord, massively requested comeback for functional transportation (with no road system in check), builders have yet to have complex innovative build-mode tools, CAST for some reason yet to be patched in for furniture-clothing-hair usage, even semi-world doesn't exist (lol, in TS2 even that's possible If you're creative enough to utilize apartment creation system and visiting neighbors doesn't trigger loading screen).
I would not support sims 4 like this. I WOULD support a new sims game (let’s call it sims 5) in this type of model. I would be all for it, provided a few things were in place from the beginning. For example, the new base game would have to be sold to me where I’m already aware that it’s going to be a fee for service, long-term game. I need to know what I’m getting into.
Secondly, A new base game would have to be set up with fundamentals in place. I personally think an open world (or even a zoned world, similar to an MMO, where the loaded zone is truly open but you still have loading when changing zones) would be pretty important for a game that was meant to grow and build over years and years. Sims 4 can NEVER do that. It’s limited. There are other aspects, as well, that would likely never be improved without a lot of time and resources put in. These are things like a create a style and colour wheel for clothing and furniture. Could they be added? Sure. But nothing in the history of sims 4 indicates they will put in that level of effort. Sims 4 is full of shortcuts everywhere you look.
I’ve finally come to the conclusion that Sims 4 is just not the game for me. So to prolong it years and years would certainly lose me from the franchise for good.
Anyway, I’m not against the idea of a continuous service model in the Sims. I’m just against it for The Sims 4.
Ok, challenge accepted. Oh, wait, that's what I've been doing ever since they released ITF, the last EP for the game so here I am with the results We're fine, Sims 3, my computer and me.
@JoAnne65 Genuinely curious... could you use the cheat "FPS on" in The Sims 3 and move around different lots in your game? What number range do you usually see it fall within?
So, finally, here I am Just typed in the cheat and...
But in my current game (almost 7 weeks in, IP, don’t know it that matters):
My home lot (apartment building with 8 sims living there): 30-220
Festival (town center): 20-170
Stylist center (6 sims there): 70-180
Firestation (empty): constantly round 190
Tavelling: 40-110
Visiting friends: 110-140
Ok, challenge accepted. Oh, wait, that's what I've been doing ever since they released ITF, the last EP for the game so here I am with the results We're fine, Sims 3, my computer and me.
@JoAnne65 Genuinely curious... could you use the cheat "FPS on" in The Sims 3 and move around different lots in your game? What number range do you usually see it fall within?
So, finally, here I am Just typed in the cheat and...
But in my current game (almost 7 weeks in, IP, don’t know it that matters):
My home lot (apartment building with 8 sims living there): 30-220
Festival (town center): 20-170
Stylist center (6 sims there): 70-180
Firestation (empty): constantly round 190
Tavelling: 40-110
Visiting friends: 110-140
Here's the good article that will help you understand those numbers. Typically you want a frame rate of around 60 fps, frame per second. The lower frame rates usually indicate more stress on the graphics card. https://www.lifewire.com/optimizing-video-game-frame-rates-811784
Ok, challenge accepted. Oh, wait, that's what I've been doing ever since they released ITF, the last EP for the game so here I am with the results We're fine, Sims 3, my computer and me.
@JoAnne65 Genuinely curious... could you use the cheat "FPS on" in The Sims 3 and move around different lots in your game? What number range do you usually see it fall within?
So, finally, here I am Just typed in the cheat and...
But in my current game (almost 7 weeks in, IP, don’t know it that matters):
My home lot (apartment building with 8 sims living there): 30-220
Festival (town center): 20-170
Stylist center (6 sims there): 70-180
Firestation (empty): constantly round 190
Tavelling: 40-110
Visiting friends: 110-140
It looks like we have similar numbers, when I’m not capping my frame rate to 60. That’s my issue with The Sims 3 — the performance is too jumpy. Ideally, you want a game to always be able to hit 60 frames per second and stay that way, never dropping below. Unfortunately, the optimization of the game coupled with the amount of content available for it makes for an unpleasant time in this regard.
I highly 100% recommend you look towards immediately capping your frame rate though. As the poster above me touched upon, it puts too much strain on your graphics card, and there have been many reports of this damaging Sims 3 player’s graphics cards.
Alternatively, and this is my preferred method, if don’t want to download anything, and you have a Nvidia graphics card: You can right click any empty space on your desktop, click nvidia control panel, click manage 3D settings, and scroll all the way to the bottom to VSync and make sure it’s selected “On”.
Ok, challenge accepted. Oh, wait, that's what I've been doing ever since they released ITF, the last EP for the game so here I am with the results We're fine, Sims 3, my computer and me.
@JoAnne65 Genuinely curious... could you use the cheat "FPS on" in The Sims 3 and move around different lots in your game? What number range do you usually see it fall within?
So, finally, here I am Just typed in the cheat and...
But in my current game (almost 7 weeks in, IP, don’t know it that matters):
My home lot (apartment building with 8 sims living there): 30-220
Festival (town center): 20-170
Stylist center (6 sims there): 70-180
Firestation (empty): constantly round 190
Tavelling: 40-110
Visiting friends: 110-140
Here's the good article that will help you understand those numbers. Typically you want a frame rate of around 60 fps, frame per second. The lower frame rates usually indicate more stress on the graphics card. https://www.lifewire.com/optimizing-video-game-frame-rates-811784
Thanks I did some Googling but that went from 'high FPA fries your graphic card' to 'high FPS is harmless'. Up till now I wasn't aware there even was such a thing as FPS, so I think I better do some research. Starting with your link.
ETA: (I was posting when you were ) @Sk8rblaze And thank you! I'll certainly look into that (and if I don't understand things turn to the TS3 help center). Wouldn't want to fry anything if not necessary. Most of the time it was around 120 by the way (but you asked for the lowest and the highest).
p.s. 2: I've used the nvidia control panel method and selected 'on' for "vertical synchronization". Thanks again
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I don't think the issues TS4 has is due to the engine. It's probably due to design choices and a lack of fixing issues as they arise.
I mean The Sims 2 engine was able to be turned into The Sims 3.
The Urbz engine was used to make The Sims 3 on Wii, which is Open World and has Kids, Teens etc. whereas the Urbz had none of that.
This of how many games are made using Unreal Engine.
I think its more of a case of design choices. I don't think the engine and foundation is limited at all.
The game has changed so much since launch, that I feel like they could do so much more if they put the work in.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I’m curious to understand what exactly you mean by a weaker foundation. At launch I can completely understand this idea, but now that the games been updated and with packs released, I would say the engine (with whatever limitations it may have) has proven itself very useful and quite advanced in many aspects of the game.
Exactly. Play the 2014 version of TS4 and it feels like another game. People don't realize how much the AI and everything about the game has changed.
Oh they realize it. They just ignore it.
With the exception of minor tuning to two reactions (only death and jealousy) the game’s AI is largely unchanged. Adding in pools, toddlers, or dishwashers isn’t changing the AI, or expanding upon the game engine’s foundation. So I think you are attributing too much change to the game, when in all reality they have filled it out with stuff, and not changed much at all.
AI is still terrible, as it has been since launch. The game still has the same restrictions now that it did in 2014 - even more so when you look at how DLC has been sectioned off in-game and is only available in certain areas under other restrictions. For a Sims game The Sims 4 has the most incapable game engine. Does not matter if people like the game, that’s irrelevant, the engine is subpar and will always be subpar. After all it was built for an online social game, or are you ignoring that?
This.
Anyone pretending the AI has improved is fooling themselves. Have a sim cheat on their spouse in front of them. Watch as they react with...wait for it a moodlet
But that's it. No confrontation, physical or verbal. Then watch as the sim becomes happy (if they have even changed emotions) because they went into a nicely decorated room. Then for even more fun have your sim go off and woohoo with their cheating spouse right away because they can..because they don't care.
In depth stuff. Also for kicks watch as the same thing happens when a family member dies.
I think The game is already a live service of sorts. They have confirmed it already and with the trickle of paid dlc that is coming each quarter it's not far off loot boxes and other similar in game purchases. It's not a practise I support with any game least of all the sims. It's ripping the customer off.
I disagree strongly that the sims 4 will look good in years to come. If the sims 5 is released and is more realistic style everyone will be the first to say the sims 4 cartoon style looks garbage. The sims 3 world still look better and more realistic because of the style it uses.
I've had many physical confrontations for cheating sims. I even have a video uploaded to my YouTube featuring such a confrontation (a video too inappropriate to share on these forums because of course language), a sim cheated on his spouse only to be bombarded with slaps and yelling from the spouse, only for later the spouse to die of anger. My sim died of anger because she was cheated on. The AI isn't perfect for sure, but it isn't something that can't be fine tuned. My biggest issue right now with the AI is when Sims choose to walk unnecessary lengths to fulfil a task, cleaning the dishes for example, there is a perfect sink and dish washer in the kitchen next room, yet they decide to walk up to the upstairs bathroom to clean the dishes there. Or when I tell a sim to do said task, walks across the lot to greet some random sim, to then perform the task. And then there's obviously the bugs that interfere with how sims behave, I've encountered a lot of bugs with interacting with toddlers lately. But besides that, the bugs, I find the AI to be fine, maybe sims reactions to events isn't as dramatic as previous games, but again, nothing that can't be fixed.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I don't think the issues TS4 has is due to the engine. It's probably due to design choices and a lack of fixing issues as they arise.
I mean The Sims 2 engine was able to be turned into The Sims 3.
The Urbz engine was used to make The Sims 3 on Wii, which is Open World and has Kids, Teens etc. whereas the Urbz had none of that.
This of how many games are made using Unreal Engine.
I think its more of a case of design choices. I don't think the engine and foundation is limited at all.
The game has changed so much since launch, that I feel like they could do so much more if they put the work in.
In a sense it already is following the GaaS model. I mean, TS4 is almost four years old (a relic by gaming standards) and EA/Maxis are still churning out quarterly packs/expansions with no end in sight. The only things missing are microtransactions and/or a subscription fee.
But no, I am not in favor of scrapping TS5 and continuing on with a TS4 service model because the foundation of TS4 isn't solid enough to build on. It's clear by now that the engine is severely limited and can't be fixed without a complete overhaul.
So not only am I unsure if the devs care enough to evolve this game in meaningful ways, but at this point I'm not even sure if it's possible.
Anyway, that's how I feel.
All the service speculation aside, I fully agree with this.
When you have a Sims game that cannot handle the basic functions of a Sims title, such as time control, efficiently, it's baffling how you could still expect fans to purchase content.
Then again, TS3 was a buggy mess throughout its lifespan. While we did have much fuller expansions and some real game design, they certainly dragged out that era quite longer than they should have. Try to run TS3 with all expansions and a good amount of store content. You more than likely will have a bogged down game incapable of smoothly handling all of the content designed for it. This is the biggest indicator that TS4 may never change, even after support for it ends, except perhaps even worse, given how much weaker of a foundation TS4 is.
I’m curious to understand what exactly you mean by a weaker foundation. At launch I can completely understand this idea, but now that the games been updated and with packs released, I would say the engine (with whatever limitations it may have) has proven itself very useful and quite advanced in many aspects of the game.
Exactly. Play the 2014 version of TS4 and it feels like another game. People don't realize how much the AI and everything about the game has changed.
Oh they realize it. They just ignore it.
With the exception of minor tuning to two reactions (only death and jealousy) the game’s AI is largely unchanged. Adding in pools, toddlers, or dishwashers isn’t changing the AI, or expanding upon the game engine’s foundation. So I think you are attributing too much change to the game, when in all reality they have filled it out with stuff, and not changed much at all.
AI is still terrible, as it has been since launch. The game still has the same restrictions now that it did in 2014 - even more so when you look at how DLC has been sectioned off in-game and is only available in certain areas under other restrictions. For a Sims game The Sims 4 has the most incapable game engine. Does not matter if people like the game, that’s irrelevant, the engine is subpar and will always be subpar. After all it was built for an online social game, or are you ignoring that?
But my question is, is the engine really truly limited? Or does the design of the game make it seem so because it’s “sectioned off” as you say (when you say sectioned off what exactly do you mean? I think I have an idea but just want some personal clarification on your part)? The only areas of the game that have proven “limited” is adding back an open world, adding back a colour wheel, and possibly adding terrain tools, everything else however, feature-wise, seems completely possible. And the only reason why open world and colour wheel aren’t in the game is because that was the design choice to do so. I’m sure if they developed hard enough they could add those features back in with enough time money and effort.
For example, take City Living: it’s two big key selling points were apartments, and festivals. Neither are available outside of the world included with CL - they are sectioned off from the remainder of the game. Similarly, invites in GT really only work for the GT locations (bluffs, ruins, Mansion). Active careers are only available in their sectioned off worlds, and pets are only programmed to naturally roam the open areas of the world included with C&D. In Sims 2, and Sims 3 nothing was explicitly restricted to one area (aside from University which is not a main world activity anyway) and content from EP’s could be freely added or removed from any given world.
Well, again, are these restrictions based on the engine or design choices? Something like City Living and the features that came with that pack I understand from a design perspective for these features to only be available in San Myshuno, specifically the festivals. Apartments would've been nice to have as an available option across all the worlds I will admit (is the lack of an option to have apartments in other worlds an engine restriction?), but something like the festivals make sense to appear on an off the lot location within the new world that came with the pack. Would you really want these festivals showing up in other worlds? To me it doesn't really matter because I'm not restricted to what worlds I can visit. If Sims 4 was similar to Sims 3 in regards to only being able to play in one world per save then I could completely understand these limitations, but City Livings main features, the city, the apartments, the festivals, are all accessible in any situation in any save file.
As for something like Get Together invites only showing up for Windenburg locations I'm not entirely sure about. This I actually do get annoyed by, how come my sims never get invited to a dance club that I've placed in San Myshuno or Oasis Springs? I've also noticed that clubs only seem to autonomously appear within Windenburg as well, another annoyance of mine, why don't clubs I've created that have specific locations set not show up at that location when I visit that location? Design choice? Or limitation?
Active careers being restricted to inaccessible areas I can understand as a design choice, even if it is a restriction I don't really mind, the lot is there, I visit it when I need to go to work, I go home. I don't really see the benefit of placing workplace lots in other locations but that's just me.
Pets only showing up in Brindleton Bay I'm 100% certain that it's a design choice and not an engine restriction. Someone made a mod that enables strays to show up in other worlds, as well as sims walking their dogs in other worlds. Why they designed the pack this way by default is completely beyond me. I would love to see a few strays here and there in the other worlds, especially dog owners walking their dogs in other worlds, it would be great for immersion.
So again, is the Sims 4 engine really as restrictive as people make it out to be? Or are people confusing design choices with engine limitations?
@filipomel - you keep asking if it's restrictive or a design choice. Even if it's a design choice, it's still a restriction on players. Not letting them to play their way or rule - as was the slogan for TS4 - is a huge restriction. So whether or not the engine is restricted or it's simply a design choice, those choices are hindering to some styles of play.
I certainly wouldn't mind, especially if it meant they kept adding onto this game. I'm not ready to move onto a TS5 yet. Probably won't be for quite a while. I like TS4, flaws and all. It feels like it has some of the best features of TS2 & TS3, and that's what I wanted in a game all along.
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I think the sales will stay up better this way also for this model. New customer/simmers come in and have to play catch up to buy all that's there.. even if on sale they are digital sales and the content has already been produced. Their job is to keep the patches as new content is released. I think it cost less overall also for a company to produce a game in this manner.. so therefore they make more money for a longer period off of one base engine concept and design. Yes they will lose some customers that don't like it... umm that happens everywhere you can't please everyone but it seems they are pleasing more than enough to capitalize on. That's what business is about at it's core.. making money. It just smarts when you are the one not being pleased.
I do think there will be a successor eventually and it will probably follow this model with more tweaks added from what they learned this time around. I hope its a number of years into the future though. I want this one to go on until it doesn't make sense to continue to create it as was indicated in the past.
I hope we are done with this trend of starting over almost every half decade.
That’s a terribly simple statement.
The simulation in TS3 is far more complex than all of the other games. For the first time in the history of the series, an entire world of Sims is being simulated at once. Even off-screen, there are Sims doing their own thing. They have their own REAL jobs (and not some made up ones like TS4), and will actually go to said jobs at the correct time slots before actually driving home when the time comes.
This is far more advanced than The Sims 4, where everything is essentially an illusion. Sims are assigned careers on the fly, you’ll see children hanging around the neighborhood despite the fact school is supposedly to be in session, they walk around the neighborhood for no point, etc.
The one major part where The Sims 3 falls short is optimization. That cannot be confused with weak or poor simulation.
This. They need to improve on how sims react to situations, short term and long term. If i want my sim to be mad at a cheating spouse, I have to force it but even still they will autonomously do friendly interactions with each other. Sims should be yelling and fighting with each other after getting cheated on and crying and stay sad/angry. Sometimes they go to bed and cry (which is just hiding under the sheet so we can't even see them be upset) if the sad moodlet doesnt get overwritten by other pointless moodlets.
And its not just affairs that they need to be improved upon. Relationships with enemies and handling death are both pretty weak. Enemies in the past use to come and steal your newspaper and kick over your trashcan and start 🐸🐸🐸🐸 with you. We dont need open world for that so why cant we get things like that? And when sims dont even care when other sims die. They'll stop to witness it (sometimes) and carry on with their business like nothing happened. They also just need to improve on getting sims to come and watch an event (like weddings, birthdays, or deaths) without walking away.
The moodlets are so pointless. I feel like their ruining the game.
SimCity simulates far more Sims at once than TS3 and they also have their own jobs / doing their own stuff off-screen. I guess that's a better life simulation game. right? Lol.
Simulating a whole town is meaningless when each Sim's simulation is so weak. TS4 has far more advanced simulation of the Sims themselves.
Examples:
* The closest we have to a "consciousness" system. TS4's multitasking system constantly, actively searches for actions on the posture graph, giving Sims a much stronger sense of awareness. For instance, when a Sim plays on a computer and another Sim walks across the room, the Sim on the computer would move their head to say hi to the other Sim. This is possible because the multitasking system constantly, actively search for available actions. When two Sims are talking to each other standing up, they may decide to sit on the couch nearby while continuing talking to each other. Once again this is because the multitasking system constantly, actively searches on the posture graph. People make fun of TS4 Sims playing musical chair, but the truth is that TS2 or TS3 would dream to have such advanced problem as their simulation is far more basic.
* Better animation system. People always say TS4 Sims have more expressive animation. This isn't just because the animation is better made, but because better tech is used to determine how the animation is played and when the animation is played.
* More advanced situation-dependent autonomy system. Sims in TS3 for example can't remotely behave as properly/as coordinated on public lots as the ones in TS4. In a TS4 Spa, the first thing Sims do after arriving is to change into towels before starting to do spa activities. In a TS4 gym, Sims will take a shower after workout and then change back into their regular clothes before leaving. This is possible because the visitors transition between different stages of autonomy situations. Meanwhile TS3 Sims just randomly, aimlessly use the objects on the lots. It's simply incapable of simulating a very organized situation.
So I’m guessing that when sims “dance together” and one is at one side if the room and the other sim, the other side and their backs are to each other this’s the “advanced awareness system?” When sims talk socially when they aren’t facing each other?
Believe me the sims 2 and 3 don’t dream of the musical chairs bug because it’s a bug. It’s unrealistic, unnatural and darn annoying.
Sim city is not the best example of AI done well. In sim city 2013 each sim had a job that changed every day and a home that changed, each sim just went to the nearest work place and home. It was never consistent and caused bugs. It was one of the things Cities Skylines is praised for that each cim has a designated home and work place and has a life cycle from birth to death.
They’re both simulation games, but SimCity is obviously a city simulator by definition because the design of the game is surrounded around the simulation and functions of a city. The Sims, particularly, The Sims 3, is actually simulating people, even people that are not being actively played, as I highlighted in my post. Their Needs, career, and virtually every other aspect of their life are being simulated at once. That constitutes calling it a life simulator, and an advanced one, too.
The Sims 4 features brand new animations, whereas The Sims 3 recycled many from The Sims 2. Unfortunately, all of that goes to waste when you have a broken emotion system and moodlet system that has very little impact on the actual game itself. I don’t really know of this better tech you’re speaking about, because the emotion system is basically reading right off of the recycled moodlet system of The Sims 3, and then pulling that information to assign an overall emotion onto the Sim. There’s a new system in place for sure, but I don’t understand how this can be called better tech, when my Sims still won’t respond to their environment to the greater degree of decade-old Sims from TS2.
Unfortunately, that “advanced autonomy system” is the same we’ve gotten before. It’s no different than The Sims 3. If I send my Sim to the library, Sims will read books. If I go to the gym, Sims will work out. It’s no different than in The Sims 4. From what the developers have said, certain objects are designed to attract more Sims than others (which has caused issues in the past with objects such as the woodworking bench).
Exactly, that’s why the game has building restriction when building community lots. I,e bowling must be a bar, a park must have a chess table. It’s to attract sims to the lot to give it the illusion of looking busy when in actual fact in the sims 2 &3 I can build a park with say a roller rink, picnic tables and a bbq. Heck I can throw in a Dj booth and wedding arch. The point is no matter what I build, sims turn up and use the facilities. They aren’t called to it by an item like a bar or chess table or pc.
A lot of the AI is design choice, and could be changed. They could choose to create a more dramatic reaction to cheating; it's not the engine of the game preventing them from doing so. For a game such as Sims 2, the over-the-top, completely psychic reaction to cheating (the immediate slapping when a Sim flirts anywhere on the lot) was fun, but for Sims 4, I wouldn't enjoy it. Also, the devs could decide to tune or turn off the effects of decoration (which I already do with a mod). I also see appropriate reactions when family members die, everyone in the household is Sad for 2 days.
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But to answer OP's question, "would you support a "service" model for the Sims 4 that saw the game further expanded over the next 4 to 6 years?" No. I want them to reset completely, reflect on their 'transgressions' and start all over again. As far as I'm concerned at this point the only really "new thing" the Sims 5 could do is deliver a worthy successor for Sims 1, 2 and 3. I doubt by the way there is a service in the world that can change or add things like colour wheel for the Sims 4 base code without breaking player's saves.
And if the AI changed, it's for the worse rather than for the better, if I may believe all the posts here concerning that.
For me, I will always take a reaction over no reaction or a moodlet;)
I don’t see appropriate reactions for deaths. Last time I played my elder Male died whilst some of his family were at school and work. You know the only person who cared? His teenage daughter because she was not at school that day. His wife came home tense from work and went for a bath then played the pc happily. She got sad a day later and that over ridden quickly by the happy emotion.
His other three kids were the same as they missed the death too. The game needs improvement in that area badly.
Even if you believe this is true, it doesn't necessarily mean TS4 is the ideal platform going forward. IMO neither game has what I would consider the ideal foundation for a service model--although TS3 did try to include more features which I consider to be Sims "fundamentals".
But it doesn't have to be one or the other. There's a third option: Try again and do better. And show a little more ambition from the start this time.
@JoAnne65 Genuinely curious... could you use the cheat "FPS on" in The Sims 3 and move around different lots in your game? What number range do you usually see it fall within?
Lol
It's not exactly a cheat, but it runs through the cheat console. Basically, it's going to enable your frames per second (FPS) to be shown in the upper left-hand corner. To disable it, it's "FPS off"
Games run on this model usually require a monthly fee $$$. I am not up for paying to play. My broke self scrimps and saves until I can afford the packs I want. Plus, I don't want all the content in game available...I have no desire to own a giant rock climbing wall or slip 'n slide. I'm sorry to be kinda rude about this, but too many games are getting greedy in subscriptions, season passes, loot crates, etc. and as a result dishing out way more out of pocket.
In the long run I'd be paying more, not less. Even $9.99 a month equals to almost $120 a year. On average, I buy an expansion pack, game pack, and 2 stuff packs a year which only adds up to $80. Please do not give EA more ideas.
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True, TS4 has better and expressive animations, but I would argue about the rest. In TS2, sims were aware of the irsurroundinds and did turn their heads to other pixel peeps when they're doing that preoccupied them physically. If not mistaken, but such as while carrying newspaper and eating. Using computer, however, wasn't just one of those instances when that could happen. I do wanna point that sims in TS4 don't really multitask, as I had argue from my picked up observation of the game in other thread, using a computer than to switch to TALK mode after they pull their hands away from keyboard&mouse doesn't meet the definition of that fancy new (<- NOT) "revoliutonary" mechanic of its term/word. Sim is not doing two or more tasks simultaniously, but rather unitasking and switching between the tasks with mini breaks. As for sims changing clothes in gym, I heard somebody report from their observation that towny sims particulary are programmed to do a certain randomly assigned task that goes as a rut and a routine, so there's no left unexpected behaviour from those sims and doesn't really go well on surprising the player, so that AI has of course some faults and fallacies that give bad rep in comparison between older games.
And I agree, they do have a very weak foundation that is so weak to the point it makes them admit, more or less indirectly, for choosing a such broken and fragile engine. Budget and technical limitations are always their go-to excuse for not (re)introducing a well build addition/feature to the game. Heck, they have yet to give.patch normal elevators animations we droll since CL brought them back. Babies are still tethered to basins with invisible short cord, massively requested comeback for functional transportation (with no road system in check), builders have yet to have complex innovative build-mode tools, CAST for some reason yet to be patched in for furniture-clothing-hair usage, even semi-world doesn't exist (lol, in TS2 even that's possible If you're creative enough to utilize apartment creation system and visiting neighbors doesn't trigger loading screen).
Secondly, A new base game would have to be set up with fundamentals in place. I personally think an open world (or even a zoned world, similar to an MMO, where the loaded zone is truly open but you still have loading when changing zones) would be pretty important for a game that was meant to grow and build over years and years. Sims 4 can NEVER do that. It’s limited. There are other aspects, as well, that would likely never be improved without a lot of time and resources put in. These are things like a create a style and colour wheel for clothing and furniture. Could they be added? Sure. But nothing in the history of sims 4 indicates they will put in that level of effort. Sims 4 is full of shortcuts everywhere you look.
I’ve finally come to the conclusion that Sims 4 is just not the game for me. So to prolong it years and years would certainly lose me from the franchise for good.
Anyway, I’m not against the idea of a continuous service model in the Sims. I’m just against it for The Sims 4.
But in my current game (almost 7 weeks in, IP, don’t know it that matters):
My home lot (apartment building with 8 sims living there): 30-220
Festival (town center): 20-170
Stylist center (6 sims there): 70-180
Firestation (empty): constantly round 190
Tavelling: 40-110
Visiting friends: 110-140
Here's the good article that will help you understand those numbers. Typically you want a frame rate of around 60 fps, frame per second. The lower frame rates usually indicate more stress on the graphics card.
https://www.lifewire.com/optimizing-video-game-frame-rates-811784
@JoAnne65 Thank you very much!
It looks like we have similar numbers, when I’m not capping my frame rate to 60. That’s my issue with The Sims 3 — the performance is too jumpy. Ideally, you want a game to always be able to hit 60 frames per second and stay that way, never dropping below. Unfortunately, the optimization of the game coupled with the amount of content available for it makes for an unpleasant time in this regard.
I highly 100% recommend you look towards immediately capping your frame rate though. As the poster above me touched upon, it puts too much strain on your graphics card, and there have been many reports of this damaging Sims 3 player’s graphics cards.
You can download the two tools, 3booter and FPSlimit, from this link, which is a great resource to improve Sims 3 performance: http://sims.wikia.com/wiki/Game_guide:Multiple_ways_to_improve_The_Sims_3's_performance
Alternatively, and this is my preferred method, if don’t want to download anything, and you have a Nvidia graphics card: You can right click any empty space on your desktop, click nvidia control panel, click manage 3D settings, and scroll all the way to the bottom to VSync and make sure it’s selected “On”.
ETA: (I was posting when you were
p.s. 2: I've used the nvidia control panel method and selected 'on' for "vertical synchronization". Thanks again
@filipomel - you keep asking if it's restrictive or a design choice. Even if it's a design choice, it's still a restriction on players. Not letting them to play their way or rule - as was the slogan for TS4 - is a huge restriction. So whether or not the engine is restricted or it's simply a design choice, those choices are hindering to some styles of play.
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