That PCW thing or whatever is seven years outdated I'm suppose believe something seven years ago man I need an updated one like...wow
@SimGuruDrake will be able to answer that much better than I can but as I understand it... the document outlines the process and the constraints/laws that are in place around revenue recognition so the fact that it is from 2009 doesn't really matter as the processes etc are still the same.
So that law happened around the time Sims 3, were they saying stuff about this law when Sims 3 were out? Because this is the first year I'm hearing about this law.
I don't remember that comment being about all the sims games. I'll have to go back and read that bit again one of these days.
You have a good point about having a realistic understanding of the game, even if it's not what you'd hoped. But I can't express how much that angered and frustrated me at the time. And it's taken me about a year and a half to finally give up on this game because I kept hoping things might change and the game would get better, but obviously (for me) that has not happened. It's far more simplistic and superficial than any of the past sims games and I'm truly saddened by the loss of what was once a fantastic game.
I know... I get that. There have been a few things done that have made me react the same way. I still get a little salty over them *cough* I also crave the complexity of game play from TS3... I really do.
I'm a girl who likes to play with boys, what can I say...
“Instead of putting players in the role of Luke Skywalker, or Frodo Baggins, I'd rather put them in the role of George Lucas.”Will Wright.
That PCW thing or whatever is seven years outdated I'm suppose believe something seven years ago man I need an updated one like...wow
Like I said in my long-winded thing, this was a new set of regulations with several years needed for companies to put it in place. There's been a whole host of related updated regulations in the same time period, as well. There's also a web version: http://www.pwcrevrec.com/ ... which, I'm seeing now, references some 2014 converged standards: http://www.pwc.com/us/en/audit-assurance-services/accounting-advisory/revenue-recognition.html I'm not going to delve into that looking for if any of the convergence is specific to software.* I'm thinking it's time to play Princess Leia, Secret Agent instead. She could use this boost week for an hour to take advantage of the awesome experience she gained In Space prior to arriving in Windenburg.
*Okay, I did click one link down and it seems to be an "industry neutral" version of two sets of existing regulations (?), so that 2009 document was probably still entirely current. But that's at-a-glance. Princess Leia calls.
EA CREATOR NETWORK MEMBER — Want to be notified of patches, new Broken Mods threads, and urgent Sims 4 news? Follow me at https://www.patreon.com/luthienrising.
That PCW thing or whatever is seven years outdated I'm suppose believe something seven years ago man I need an updated one like...wow
Like I said in my long-winded thing, this was a new set of regulations with several years needed for companies to put it in place. There's been a whole host of related updated regulations in the same time period, as well. There's also a web version: http://www.pwcrevrec.com/ ... which, I'm seeing now, references some 2014 converged standards: http://www.pwc.com/us/en/audit-assurance-services/accounting-advisory/revenue-recognition.html I'm not going to delve into that looking for if any of the convergence is specific to software.* I'm thinking it's time to play Princess Leia, Secret Agent instead. She could use this boost week for an hour to take advantage of the awesome experience she gained In Space prior to arriving in Windenburg.
*Okay, I did click one link down and it seems to be an "industry neutral" version of two sets of existing regulations (?), so that 2009 document was probably still entirely current. But that's at-a-glance. Princess Leia calls.
Thank goodness you answered that luth, I was definitely struggling there to explain that.
I'm a girl who likes to play with boys, what can I say...
“Instead of putting players in the role of Luke Skywalker, or Frodo Baggins, I'd rather put them in the role of George Lucas.”Will Wright.
That PCW thing or whatever is seven years outdated I'm suppose believe something seven years ago man I need an updated one like...wow
@SimGuruDrake will be able to answer that much better than I can but as I understand it... the document outlines the process and the constraints/laws that are in place around revenue recognition so the fact that it is from 2009 doesn't really matter as the processes etc are still the same.
So that law happened around the time Sims 3, were they saying stuff about this law when Sims 3 were out? Because this is the first year I'm hearing about this law.
The regulations were introduced with several years to put them into effect. Nobody will have been able to put them into effect immediately. They require transitioning a whole host of internal company practices, so time is given for that to happen. The law I discussed that made my nonprofit have to overhaul our governance was enacted a few years before the deadline nonprofits had to make any needed changes by.
EA CREATOR NETWORK MEMBER — Want to be notified of patches, new Broken Mods threads, and urgent Sims 4 news? Follow me at https://www.patreon.com/luthienrising.
That PCW thing or whatever is seven years outdated I'm suppose believe something seven years ago man I need an updated one like...wow
@SimGuruDrake will be able to answer that much better than I can but as I understand it... the document outlines the process and the constraints/laws that are in place around revenue recognition so the fact that it is from 2009 doesn't really matter as the processes etc are still the same.
So that law happened around the time Sims 3, were they saying stuff about this law when Sims 3 were out? Because this is the first year I'm hearing about this law.
The regulations were introduced with several years to put them into effect. Nobody will have been able to put them into effect immediately. They require transitioning a whole host of internal company practices, so time is given for that to happen. The law I discussed that made my nonprofit have to overhaul our governance was enacted a few years before the deadline nonprofits had to make any needed changes by.
That is true... Unfortunately lol but still this silence is overbearing I need answer or an action.
One thing I keep hearing from @SimGuruDrake when simmers voice their dissatisfaction with aspects of the game is that 'but not everyone feels that way'. I'm not sure how to interpret that - what does it mean? That EA is not interested in feedback that disagrees with the current quality of the game? They way @SimGuruDrake keep mentioning it, it must mean something. It's like a defense mechanism. IMO it shouldn't mean what kind of feedback we as customers have are invalid - all of it should be valid. 99% of us are not trying to be mean or attack anyone. We have the greatest respect of the dev team. But we strongly disagree with the Maxis/EA current vision for the game. That's it. We're trying to say why and what we disagree with. But then we get responses like 'not everyone feels that way'. So what? Does that mean our feedback doesn't matter? With all the simmers that deeply feel betrayed by the company, that seems kind of harsh. IMO it's never really been about the communication, although it's become this thing that is like a symbol for the felt betrayal. It's always been about the quality of the game. It's NOT about getting a perfect game. It's not about feeling entitled or yelling or attacking devs. It's ALWAYS been about the quality of the game, and what we as players miss so greatly. @SimGuruDrake Can you please stop saying our voices does not matter? We are not complaining to make your work hard - we honestly don't want that - what we want is our game back.
Look, I understand that the devs is not to blame - they have been put in an impossible situation - not getting the time and resources and support they need to make the game we are used to. But we are directing our complaints at the company as a whole and at the decisions made while making this game. It's NOT directed at individuals. We understand. But as customers and simmers and lovers of this game, we can't be silent just because it makes your job harder, or because you feel it's unfair. We want our game back. Maxis/EA messed up. That's it. And we won't be silent just because some think it's the greatest game since cheese. (We honestly couldn't care less about games with cheese.) We want a true simulation game, with animations, and all life stages, and creative tools, and sandbox game play. We have been telling you this, loudly at times, from the day this game was released. It's NOT our fault the company as a whole does not have the resources or support to make it happen. It's NOT our fault the decisions from the leaders in the company was to make a watered down, shallow version. It's NOT our fault not all simmers play the same way. The game should be inclusive, not exclusive.
Simulation games does not have a 'main stream' mode - because then it's not a sim game. Maxis/EA leadership did not realize this. They naively thought they could do whatever they wanted and throw the game through whatever vision wrangler they wanted. That is NOT our fault that they don't understand this game, or the simmer fan base, or what a sim game is. NOT. OUR. FAULT.
I still love you, @SimGuruDrake and I still love you Dear Devs. This is not about you. It's about a beloved game and its fans. This is about a company failing to see what made a game. So I'm sorry, but that's the truth.
I know you can't tell us what's in store. And personally I wouldn't even care, if I got my game back. *whispers* Please can I get my game back?
Edited for coherence.
Allons-y!
---> Afterlife Game Pack Idea - improved ghosts, cemeteries and funerals, psychics, new skills, new career and more! <---
Also another thing, they're only in this courner, because they can't speak about free content and they don't know what is free and what is payed till the last minute. I'm following some games that talk about upcomming expansions full year in advance. What might be a good thing to do would actually be to send a person to give a bunch of no's and then say "but this is what we are doing" and announce 2 expansions in front. One would probably we near finished and ready for announcement and the other could be talked about in the vaguest terms (if you know that you're working on a holiday expansion for example, you could go "next one will be about holidays" without actually going to details. That way you can't exactly under-deliver).
Another suggestion would be to offer suggestion threads and actually USE the suggestions. If we had seen a suggestion thread and a year later we had seen some of the suggestions get into the game, you give a lot of customers the satisfaction of going "I suggested it! They listened! They listened!", those around them that had seen it happen would also feel better about seeing other customers being listened to.
I know that there was already a comment about too many cooks in the kitchen, but with customer relations so bad at the moment, including an object or two would most definitely not kill your vision.
This is why I think it would be fantastic for the gurus to have chat sessions about what really goes into game development, how decisions are made, and how much time it takes to implement things in game.
Personally, although i'd like to know what they are planning, like you mentioned, ahead of time, it may not be possible with how game development works. The biggest issue with announcing packs ahead of time is that if they have to pull out some feature or gameplay item because it just didn't work it will create more problems.
Also, I could be wrong so I will ping @luthienrising, but I do believe that this law does not take effect until 2018. So other gaming companies may not have starting transitioning into the new law yet. EA being such a big company probably decided to play it safe and start this transition early.
I'm not 100% on the details. My understanding at the moment is that the newer version of the regulation re. when delivery is effected for software that has had an update (ie, patch, not DLC) spoken of has until 2018 to be placed in practice. It's a deadline, not a start date. And it's the deadline for the entire regulation shift on revenue recognition, not only this one element. Any sensible company will not leave this to be implemented in the last week. There's good reason they've been given years to get the shift in place.
FWIW, the nearest similar situation I've been in personally concerns major changes in the legislation governing the nonprofit I currently chair the board of (a volunteer position). We had a few years to make sure all necessary changes in governance were in place and approved by the board and membership and the paperwork finalized; it took about ... two? of those to make so for us - it was a big process, and included having to overhaul our whole membership and fee structure - after which I watched some other organizations pretty near panic over getting it all done on time. We're still not quite done some of the policy revision that falls out from that process. Close, though! I think another year and that's it. It will have been a four- to five-year process in all, IIRC. I think the only reason we were able to do it as fast as we were is that a couple of us had been there, done that with a similar overhaul of governance before.
Anyway, you "play it safe" because these are huge transitions, even if the document requiring them isn't. Every regulatory change can mean a whole lot of other change, and a lot of internal education about it. Plus you never know what other mandated or otherwise necessary change is going to show up that has an even shorter deadline, causing unexpected time pressures - or missing critical deadlines (in our case, we'd have actually lost our nonprofit status, with the attendant fallout that we weren't going to risk). Waiting to the last minute to put in place a major shift in practice that you've had years of time to do is just plain incompetent. I would hope that my membership would vote me off my board if I did anything of the sort, and that shareholders would take action in a public company. So yeah, could they have waiting? Sure. But it would have been shockingly incompetent to do so, IMO. That they did not do so looks good on EA.
Some other companies are not publicly traded firms; this set of regulations is optional for them. (FWIW, if I were running a private firm and hoping it might get bought, I'd follow the same practices as are required by publicly traded firms.) Many other companies do not produce products that have patch content (not DLC or a new game in a series or a new game entirely) announced in advance, or announced much in advance.
Anyway, this is only one of the reasons stuff doesn't get discussed in advance. But it's one that's covered by legal stuff, and in a transition process that's not telling me, personally, that EA is a plum at doing this but rather that it's doing it responsibly.
Thank you @luthienrising! I appreciate that you took the time to explain it as well as you did.
I do agree with you, making these changes ahead of time is the right and responsible thing to do.
I was not at all aware that private and public companies were different in this regard, but it does make sense. Again, thank you.
I can't help but comment on how blaringly different @Lutefisk and @HappySimmer3 posts are. I respect both of your posts.
It seems just such a big divide doesn't it? I feel a bit like one of my sims at times... bouncing from one emotion to the next trying to make sense of it all. lol. At least as a community we can say we are diverse.
Thanks! That's interesting you feel that way, because after reading her post I don't feel like we're at opposite ends of the spectrum. @Lutefisk is responding based on her experience at her job, and why the communication about the game might be less than satisfactory. I'm responding based on my assessment of the actual content - or lack thereof - they have put into the game so far.
Now whether this is due to a lack of financial resources (which s/he seems to imply) or major problems with adding content to the game, is speculation on both our parts. (And really we'd both be correct because with enough resources they could probably fix the issues with adding content.)
But my conclusion would be the same. I still say that if the game were actually fun and the content they were adding worked correctly there would be a metric ton of fewer complaints on this forum about things that players want to see added. So the way I look at it, the problem is still the game and not the customers.
I agree that our comments aren't necessarily opposing, and I'm glad you guys understood what I was trying to say... I was writing it all on my iPhone and I didn' t know if I was making any sense!
I guess I was trying to address the people who were frustrated by the communication strategy rather than happy/not happy/etc with the game. It can be rough on both sides, at least when I have to do it at my job. (But the gurus are a lot nicer than me... muahahaha...)
@Lutefisk your post made perfect sense, and I admire anyone who can write an intelligent post on a smart phone. The smallest tool I'm willing to use is my iPad.
Personally I could care less about the communication and whether they tell us about upcoming content or not, and based on their reasons I think it's pointless to keep asking for information that they can't or won't provide. If people are unhappy about specific things that are missing and it's a game breaker for them, then they probably should just stop buying any more packs until they know that content is actually being added because they are NOT going to say one way or the other beforehand. I know that's a frustrating prospect for a lot of people, but it is what it is. Maybe it's easy for me to say that now because I really don't care what they do with this game; there are way too many things that I don't like in the base game that they are extremely unlikely to ever change.
But the game IMO is lacking all kinds of meaningful content and I think that is the essential problem. I think that some things would require too many changes to the game and that wouldn't be profitable for them, but there's a lot of other things that could potentially make customers happy. There have been no lack of suggestions on the things players would like to see, and these things go way beyond toddlers or cars. If, as I suspect, there are problems with adding content to the game, if it's too difficult to make changes that adding content requires and that is what is causing these lengthy time periods without EPs or GPs (as well as the never-ending bugs) then they had better fix that soon if they want the forum to have fewer complaints.
That is all.
The Sims
Where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?!
Thank you for taking your time to tell us all of this. I am on neither side of the devs of simmers because I just can't.
1. Maxis, you won't do anything to please some of your fans. If you know about the whole toddler situation, then just don't sit there and do nothing. Do something about it. Be honest with us. A true game company never let down their real fans. You guess just need to give us a simple answer: Are toddlers coming or not? If they are coming, will they be in development sometime soon? Simple as that. Everyone wouldn't fuss so much if you would just tell us in the beginning. Now I don't know if the City ep is real but I am disappointed if it's not Generation this time. It's been two whole years and all we got was bull from fans. Your silence made us so angry that we ranted all over the forum. Now come on. You are obviously trying to bring your fans down instead of up. I know you are listening to us but it seems like you aren't. Why do we have all these unwanted stuff packs or announcements? You know we want plumming toddlers and you REFUSE to give to us still.
"You say you want something to happen but you never really do anything about it."
- Unknown
"Stop wishing something to happen. Make a move and do it"
-Unknown
"If you really want to do something you will find a way. If you'll don't, you will find an excuse."
-Unknown
"You have today. You are here. Do something."
-Rozine
"Don't talk about something just do it! I fought with all of my brains until a bullet went through it."
-Abraham Lincoln from ERB
"Do something today that your future self will thank you for"
-Unknown
Come on Maxis, this can't keep happening forever.
Fans:
Stop acting so childish and support Maxis rather than going against them. Real fans don't bash on devs or even other fans. We are supposed to act civilize for heaven sakes. Most of us are grown bass adults with children or no children. God there are children and teenagers on here for the love of Christ. You are being a bad role model for them because of how childish you act. We aren't children. We are supposed to help Maxis and EA. What I learned from here you guys are nothing but haters and some of you are cruel people.
The ones that don't like toddlers or don't care: I understand. Real life children can be a pain so you don't want to tolerate it in a virtual game. I've been there too. I have three nieces and nephews. Yes we don't get along everyday and we fight but that doesn't stop making me want children on an online virtual game. For the ones that keep going against people who want toddlers, stop it right now. You have no right to tell us what we can't have or what's not coming. Stop bashing on every thread having to do with something about toddlers. Stop saying "I don't want toddlers in the Sims 4" or "I hop they'll never come" or "NO TODDLERS! I HATE THEM" on a thread or your own thread. Quite acting like crying babies and grow the fuzzy wuzzy up. Toddlers are going to be everywhere no matter where you go regardless in real life or a simulation game. This is not a childless world and it will never be.
Now can we all agree to make a change instead being complete plum.S and do nothing about sim forum world issues.
"People aren't against you. They are for themselves"
-Anonymous
"We either live together as brothers or perish together as fools"
-Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Success is simple. Do what's right, the right way, at the right time."
-Arnold H. Glasow
This one is for everyone out here:
We should not make war but only peace. Fans, stop this. We can make things better if we all stay positive. Maxis, be wise and make that move. I'm tired of all the whining. Why can't we all people happy for the love of this planet. Things will keep getting worse if we won't do nothing about this toddler issue.
1. I've said all I can say on the subject. I will not sacrifice my job just to give any one here a different answer than I have already given. Nor is it worth anyone else on the team losing their job over because you want us to break a law just to tell you about a thing we've already given an answer to. The law has no exceptions.
2. You don't want a particular pack, it doesn't mean that someone else doesn't. We never said any particular pack is coming in any particular order. What you think is going to happen does not mean that is the reality unless we say it is "Hey X content is coming". Additionally we don't "refuse" to give you something (see, there are those pesky accusations again).
I see about number one. You can't cannot tell anyone about toddler because it is against the policy. Now I am beginning to understand. I'm mostly sick of the fans complaining everyday.
One thing I keep hearing from @SimGuruDrake when simmers voice their dissatisfaction with aspects of the game is that 'but not everyone feels that way'. I'm not sure how to interpret that - what does it mean? That EA is not interested in feedback that disagrees with the current quality of the game? They way @SimGuruDrake keep mentioning it, it must mean something. It's like a defense mechanism. IMO it shouldn't mean what kind of feedback we as customers have are invalid - all of it should be valid. 99% of us are not trying to be mean or attack anyone. We have the greatest respect of the dev team. But we strongly disagree with the Maxis/EA current vision for the game. That's it. We're trying to say why and what we disagree with. But then we get responses like 'not everyone feels that way'. So what? Does that mean our feedback doesn't matter? With all the simmers that deeply feel betrayed by the company, that seems kind of harsh. IMO it's never really been about the communication, although it's become this thing that is like a symbol for the felt betrayal. It's always been about the quality of the game. It's NOT about getting a perfect game. It's not about feeling entitled or yelling or attacking devs. It's ALWAYS been about the quality of the game, and what we as players miss so greatly. @SimGuruDrake Can you please stop saying our voices does not matter? We are not complaining to make your work hard - we honestly don't want that - what we want is our game back.
Look, I understand that the devs is not to blame - they have been put in an impossible situation - not getting the time and resources and support they need to make the game we are used to. But we are directing our complaints at the company as a whole and at the decisions made while making this game. It's NOT directed at individuals. We understand. But as customers and simmers and lovers of this game, we can't be silent just because it makes your job harder, or because you feel it's unfair. We want our game back. Maxis/EA messed up. That's it. And we won't be silent just because some think it's the greatest game since cheese. (We honestly couldn't care less about games with cheese.) We want a true simulation game, with animations, and all life stages, and creative tools, and sandbox game play. We have been telling you this, loudly at times, from the day this game was released. It's NOT our fault the company as a whole does not have the resources or support to make it happen. It's NOT our fault the decisions from the leaders in the company was to make a watered down, shallow version. It's NOT our fault not all simmers play the same way. The game should be inclusive, not exclusive.
Simulation games does not have a 'main stream' mode - because then it's not a sim game. Maxis/EA leadership did not realize this. They naively thought they could do whatever they wanted and throw the game through whatever vision wrangler they wanted. That is NOT our fault that they don't understand this game, or the simmer fan base, or what a sim game is. NOT. OUR. FAULT.
I still love you, @SimGuruDrake and I still love you Dear Devs. This is not about you. It's about a beloved game and its fans. This is about a company failing to see what made a game. So I'm sorry, but that's the truth.
I know you can't tell us what's in store. And personally I wouldn't even care, if I got my game back. *whispers* Please can I get my game back?
Well, sadly, I've hit a personal wall with this game. Did some more reading of recent threads and just can't see the hope I once did anymore. @mattandphilsims2 your video just about made me cry. Thank you and I understand how you feel. This game was more than a game to me. I am exhausted and sad with how things have gone. I usually don't let sims drama get to me, but I feel like there's no room for discussion anymore. If the team cannot involve fans in development, and all we can ever hope for after the fact explainations, then I feel like my time here is wasted.
I feel like a lot could be done to 'save' this game in my eyes, but it seems clear that those changes will not be considered. If change comes it will be at the whim of the devs, not due to any collaboration with the fans. I hope there are some folks on the team who understand what's changed, what's missing, and I hope they can find their voices in the next game of this franchise if there is one.
I joined these forums with the announcement of sims 4, because I felt I didn't not speak as I watched sim city fall. I have tried my best to speak it in defense of this, my favourite past time, but it feels all a bit futile now. Forgive the melodramatics, but I feel this whole conversation has been a turning point for me.
This is not my game anymore. It's no one's fault, really, but EA has gone a direction I've no interest in following, and if the only way we will be engaged is if the entire internet stops making mean comments, well... It's never going to happen.
I was gonna do this big post to try to explain the issues and potential solutions one last time but... It's been done. And the big 'lost faith' goodbye post has been done too, and every time I see one it's like losing a friend. Anyway, enough. Good luck sims team, please consider my plea to return to meaningful, powerful, internally consistent sims experience if you end up making another one.
One thing I keep hearing from @SimGuruDrake when simmers voice their dissatisfaction with aspects of the game is that 'but not everyone feels that way'. I'm not sure how to interpret that - what does it mean? That EA is not interested in feedback that disagrees with the current quality of the game? They way @SimGuruDrake keep mentioning it, it must mean something. It's like a defense mechanism. IMO it shouldn't mean what kind of feedback we as customers have are invalid - all of it should be valid. 99% of us are not trying to be mean or attack anyone. We have the greatest respect of the dev team. But we strongly disagree with the Maxis/EA current vision for the game. That's it. We're trying to say why and what we disagree with. But then we get responses like 'not everyone feels that way'. So what? Does that mean our feedback doesn't matter? With all the simmers that deeply feel betrayed by the company, that seems kind of harsh. IMO it's never really been about the communication, although it's become this thing that is like a symbol for the felt betrayal. It's always been about the quality of the game. It's NOT about getting a perfect game. It's not about feeling entitled or yelling or attacking devs. It's ALWAYS been about the quality of the game, and what we as players miss so greatly. @SimGuruDrake Can you please stop saying our voices does not matter? We are not complaining to make your work hard - we honestly don't want that - what we want is our game back.
Look, I understand that the devs is not to blame - they have been put in an impossible situation - not getting the time and resources and support they need to make the game we are used to. But we are directing our complaints at the company as a whole and at the decisions made while making this game. It's NOT directed at individuals. We understand. But as customers and simmers and lovers of this game, we can't be silent just because it makes your job harder, or because you feel it's unfair. We want our game back. Maxis/EA messed up. That's it. And we won't be silent just because some think it's the greatest game since cheese. (We honestly couldn't care less about games with cheese.) We want a true simulation game, with animations, and all life stages, and creative tools, and sandbox game play. We have been telling you this, loudly at times, from the day this game was released. It's NOT our fault the company as a whole does not have the resources or support to make it happen. It's NOT our fault the decisions from the leaders in the company was to make a watered down, shallow version. It's NOT our fault not all simmers play the same way. The game should be inclusive, not exclusive.
Simulation games does not have a 'main stream' mode - because then it's not a sim game. Maxis/EA leadership did not realize this. They naively thought they could do whatever they wanted and throw the game through whatever vision wrangler they wanted. That is NOT our fault that they don't understand this game, or the simmer fan base, or what a sim game is. NOT. OUR. FAULT.
I still love you, @SimGuruDrake and I still love you Dear Devs. This is not about you. It's about a beloved game and its fans. This is about a company failing to see what made a game. So I'm sorry, but that's the truth.
I know you can't tell us what's in store. And personally I wouldn't even care, if I got my game back. *whispers* Please can I get my game back?
Edited for coherence.
Seriously?
Because it's a fact.
Because empathy. You (broad, not specific) want me to turn around and go on a bloody march and boycott the product because it doesn't suit you, yet you won't actually consider that people have different thoughts and opinons on the product and like it as it is.
Of course, your feedback matters, but I don't know many who would throw buying and happy customers under the bus for people who haven't brought in months (most cases, not all). Not normally covered in Business 101, I'd have thought.
It's not about feeling entitled, really? You've just told anybody who likes the game that they're wrong, aren't a true simmer and wouldn't know a sims game if it came and smacked them in the mouth. What they like isn't relevant, the game needs fixing for you. And that the people making the game can't do their job, they need guidance from you, to make it a true sims game. Most of them have been doing it for years and have worked on multiple iterations and packs. They don't need help or guidance.
You're not the only players, which goes back to the beginning, it's a fact that there are others who feel differently, You can't or shouldn't expect that they'll 'fix' the game to please you at the expense of those who are quite content.
I'm not even answering that your opinions have been treated as fact by you.
I think complaints about communication on the forum can be broadly lumped into two categories:
A. silence about future content
B. silence about current content
The 'A' type is mostly what has been addressed in this thread. Honestly I feel like the SimGurus have answered this one up and down in the past several weeks. @SimGuruGraham has explained the live service model and how development is much more flexible about what's coming out when than in previous games; @SimGuruDrake has explained (with help from @luthienrising) that there are actual laws, not just unsympathetic marketing policies, that prevent the team from talking about future content. SGDrake is right - she has been repeating herself over and over again about this. I used to be upset about how we were in the dark about future content, but now I think they've made it clear why that has to be the case, and I have definitely made my peace with it.
Personally I would like it if the forum could largely move on to bringing 'B' type of issues to the fore. There are still a lot of unanswered questions about mechanics that already exist in the game. SGDrake has assured me that she is looking into just one of these - why relationship culling/inactive played relationship decay were not announced in the patch notes that introduced them - but there are many more. Why, for example, are players given so few options about game mechanics? No age sliders, no toggle for aliens or alien abductions, no option to give your Sim a landline instead of a smartphone (okay this is minor but it's a pet peeve of mine - we're not all living in Silicon Valley), no ability to assign our own Sims as rabbit hole NPCs or store employees or restaurant employees, no options for how to manage the death of Sims, and no customization whatsoever in the Emotions system... These are just a couple I can think of off the top of my head, but in the threads I have participated most in lately (mostly about culling and decay mechanics), these are pressing concerns that often get lost in the waves of demand for information about future content.*
*(ETA because okay I know landlines aren't exactly a "pressing concern" hahaha it just peeves me because there are lots of countries where everyone still has a landline, I mean the only person in my family who doesn't have one is my uncle who lives in California )
I would love more details on game development too but I also understand why the devs are a bit cautious in doing so, considering how often it's misunderstood, misquoted and so on.
IMO they don't have the confidence to announce anything for this game because they are never sure if they can get it to work. And based on the relatively small amount of content (compared to past versions of the game) that has been added so far, even when they do announce it there's a high chance it's not going to work quite right.
The complete irony here is that Simmers aren't all that difficult to please. If they were releasing awesome, fantastic, engaging content that actually worked as you would expect it to, even if it wasn't exactly what people were asking for, I think you would see a huge difference in the number of complaints about the game.
So they can try to blame the players all the want, and label us toxic and negative; I think it's the game itself that is the real problem here. But hey, what do I know. I'm just a subset of a former customer group.
I must confess the discussion here confuses me and you kind of put your finger on my confusion there. Everyone is focusing on communication being the problem, both gurus and players, but I don't think that's it, at least not for me. I've played Sims 3 for nine months without any form of communication (not even with other simmers) and after that my only communication was with a select group of Dutch players. I had no idea what a simguru was and that you could communicate with them and the only information I got was 'hey, new EP/SP coming up' after which I preordered and played till it was in my mailbox. I never even saw a trailer. Like others I was wondering if there would be pets and weather one day, but that was kind of in the back of my mind. It didn't influence anything nor did it make me angry I didn't get any information on that. I played and enjoyed.
Also I really regret some people are making something personal out of it. Wanting to shut people up in special sections like caged animals or something and imo that's not exactly suppressed by the guru, who seems to take this all very personal where it's not. And who focuses on and attacks the so called attitude of simmers, instead of taking it for what it is: critique on the game. This is about a game, not about persons.
At the end of the day I don't care about this all. Nobody has to like 'me' (the player) and if you can't talk to me ok, don't talk then. Deliver. Make me want to play this game.
@JoAnne65 I think there are many aspects of this, one is about communication which included the missing game play elements (toddlers, CAW, terrain tools etc etc), another about the patches that introduce major changes to game play and yet this isn't communicated in the patch notes and so come as quite a surprise to many players, often not a good surprise either, another about future content which I would say is beginning to being addressed though teasers and such that introduce the players to what is coming up in each quarter.
The second issue is more about the players feeling let down in general about the game as well as a disappointment that all the carefully thought out suggestions and ideas are/or seem to be completely ignored. Which is basically what you are saying in your last sentence, I think, when you say 'make me want to play this game'.
I also never came to the forums during TS3, I was too busy having fun. Never occurred to me to do anything but occasionally look to see what was coming out next.
I also agree with you big time. It should never be about the players but always about the game. Both parties involved have been guilty of making it about people. Wouldn't it be nice to really hear the words in the most genuine manner possible: what can we do to make this game better for you?
I'm a girl who likes to play with boys, what can I say...
“Instead of putting players in the role of Luke Skywalker, or Frodo Baggins, I'd rather put them in the role of George Lucas.”Will Wright.
IMO they don't have the confidence to announce anything for this game because they are never sure if they can get it to work. And based on the relatively small amount of content (compared to past versions of the game) that has been added so far, even when they do announce it there's a high chance it's not going to work quite right.
The complete irony here is that Simmers aren't all that difficult to please. If they were releasing awesome, fantastic, engaging content that actually worked as you would expect it to, even if it wasn't exactly what people were asking for, I think you would see a huge difference in the number of complaints about the game.
So they can try to blame the players all the want, and label us toxic and negative; I think it's the game itself that is the real problem here. But hey, what do I know. I'm just a subset of a former customer group.
I must confess the discussion here confuses me and you kind of put your finger on my confusion there. Everyone is focusing on communication being the problem, both gurus and players, but I don't think that's it, at least not for me. I've played Sims 3 for nine months without any form of communication (not even with other simmers) and after that my only communication was with a select group of Dutch players. I had no idea what a simguru was and that you could communicate with them and the only information I got was 'hey, new EP/SP coming up' after which I preordered and played till it was in my mailbox. I never even saw a trailer. Like others I was wondering if there would be pets and weather one day, but that was kind of in the back of my mind. It didn't influence anything nor did it make me angry I didn't get any information on that. I played and enjoyed.
Also I really regret some people are making something personal out of it. Wanting to shut people up in special sections like caged animals or something and imo that's not exactly suppressed by the guru, who seems to take this all very personal where it's not. And who focuses on and attacks the so called attitude of simmers, instead of taking it for what it is: critique on the game. This is about a game, not about persons.
At the end of the day I don't care about this all. Nobody has to like 'me' (the player) and if you can't talk to me ok, don't talk then. Deliver. Make me want to play this game.
I haven't read all of the responses yet, but I'm sure it'll be depressing from what I still started to read last night. But yes 100% to this: if you can't talk to me ok, don't talk then. Deliver. Make me want to play this game.
So, off to reading this thread, though I'll probably teach my class before I find the time to answer.
I've seen a decent amount of both toxic "negative" people and toxic "positive" people. I think the underlying issue is that entire threads just get closed and no action is taken against those who were rude or drove it off-topic.
The "Feedback for SimGuruDrake" thread is a good example, there were about 2 people being very rude but otherwise it had some nice discussion. Instead of warning the rude users the whole thread was shut down. People will keep being rude and toxic as long as they see that they can get away with it.
And even have some amount of power there. I do agree by the way this forum can be quite toxic, exaggerating flaws of the different versions with very big words that don't seem to leave room for another opinion. But like you say that goes both ways. You hate or you love and if you don't love you hate and if you don't hate you love, that seems to be the general feeling here. I think it's more nuanced than that. When someone says they love something (rabbitholes for instance, or open world, or multitasking, or no toddlers), why is it a problem someone else will express an opposite opinion about that. Why is that automatically 'negative'? I understand people would love for this forum to be all positive and happy. It isn't though and there's a reason. And 'quit playing then and move on' won't do because many people bought the game and want to like it. Many people basically do like it but desperately miss certain things. If you don't want to read their opinions, make sure you don't have to (that's possible here). And if there are too many, then maybe it's not those simmers after all, but the game. Doesn't mean you're not allowed to love and enjoy it yourself.
I went to the SimsVIP forum by the way, because I heard it was very positive and all negative people were banned there. And stumbled into a post "The Simsvip forums have been dead for months! What happened".
I would love more details on game development too but I also understand why the devs are a bit cautious in doing so, considering how often it's misunderstood, misquoted and so on.
Not only this, but any time communication is brought up about something, such as the livestreams for the latest packs that have come out, chat gets spammed with everything they can't talk about and nothing about the current pack being shown. Last livestream Drake (and possibly other gurus) had to heavily moderate the chat just to keep it on topic.
It's all well and good to say "let's talk about current content then!" and then not let them do so, nor engage them in it. At every opportunity that's been given to this community to have a back-and-forth 'honest discussion', it gets taken over by those that have no interest in such a thing. We want this! We're owed that! We don't care what you're doing now until we get x,y and z! Same thing happened way back when the gurus would have Q&As or whatever they were called. Which is why they don't have them anymore.
They'd rather spam over and over stuff that the gurus can't talk about and everyone under the sun already knows about, as well as tell the gurus to change jobs, or dictate to them how to do their jobs. The sooner people understand the gurus can't talk about future content after being told a million times, the sooner they'll get more information on what can be talked about.
I'm not opposed to the Gurus coming in to chat about game development. They'd love to do that.
What I have a problem with is people running away with their comments to push a negative agenda instead of trying to learn about the thought processes and development processes that go into making any particular piece of content (free or paid). The issue is that when we say "can't comment on that" people should respect that and I don't want to have to police people (I really shouldn't have to) who repeatedly ask the same question they know we will give the same answer to. It also isn't their job to push through those types of comments either, their time is limited and shouldn't be spent having to repeatedly say "I can't comment on that because of XYZ".
Yeah, I will try and phrase a response to all this (in lists, because I understand it's easier for you to read/respond to) later today.
One thing though, when I read statements like that, or that you "wouldn't wish your job on anyone", I could tell you the same thing you've told us before: if you're going to approach the community with such a negative mindset, you're bound to be disappointed by it. If you think that a discussion with the devs could turn out difficult, because some people (not all, mind you) are unwilling (or unable? I'm not entirely sure how you see this) to understand the intricacies of development, then maybe you should find a way to moderate those kinds of Ask-A-Guru talks in a way that will be less likely to happen. Like someone already said (if I remember well what I've read last night), why not ask people to send their questions in beforehand, then pick a couple of the better ones and let 2-3 gurus answer each one. You can even immediately close the thread afterwards, if you consider it necessary. Or find another way. I'm sure there is one, but I personally feel like you believe that most of us are incapable of understanding the complexity of your job anyway.
But okay, I'm tired and I'm focused on my job right now, so if this comes off as too negative, I apologize. I will try and write a thought out response later on
@SimGuruDrake
I hope this is not out of the subject. I like the looks of the pre made sims (townies that came with the worlds) a lot, they look very unique and I think a lot of care was taken into making them. I don't know who created them whether the gurus made them or some other special artists. Is it possible in future to interview some of them?
Interviewing the artist and knowing which sims he created, what things inspired him and whether there was any real life inspiration from a real person. A blog like that will be very interesting. I appreciate if this is done sometime in future.
Everything I post is an opinion here and I think every post of others is as well.
Comments
So that law happened around the time Sims 3, were they saying stuff about this law when Sims 3 were out? Because this is the first year I'm hearing about this law.
I know... I get that. There have been a few things done that have made me react the same way.
“Instead of putting players in the role of Luke Skywalker, or Frodo Baggins, I'd rather put them in the role of George Lucas.”Will Wright.
Like I said in my long-winded thing, this was a new set of regulations with several years needed for companies to put it in place. There's been a whole host of related updated regulations in the same time period, as well. There's also a web version: http://www.pwcrevrec.com/ ... which, I'm seeing now, references some 2014 converged standards: http://www.pwc.com/us/en/audit-assurance-services/accounting-advisory/revenue-recognition.html I'm not going to delve into that looking for if any of the convergence is specific to software.* I'm thinking it's time to play Princess Leia, Secret Agent instead. She could use this boost week for an hour to take advantage of the awesome experience she gained In Space prior to arriving in Windenburg.
*Okay, I did click one link down and it seems to be an "industry neutral" version of two sets of existing regulations (?), so that 2009 document was probably still entirely current. But that's at-a-glance. Princess Leia calls.
Thank goodness you answered that luth, I was definitely struggling there to explain that.
“Instead of putting players in the role of Luke Skywalker, or Frodo Baggins, I'd rather put them in the role of George Lucas.”Will Wright.
The regulations were introduced with several years to put them into effect. Nobody will have been able to put them into effect immediately. They require transitioning a whole host of internal company practices, so time is given for that to happen. The law I discussed that made my nonprofit have to overhaul our governance was enacted a few years before the deadline nonprofits had to make any needed changes by.
That is true... Unfortunately lol but still this silence is overbearing I need answer or an action.
@SimGuruDrake Can you please stop saying our voices does not matter? We are not complaining to make your work hard - we honestly don't want that - what we want is our game back.
Look, I understand that the devs is not to blame - they have been put in an impossible situation - not getting the time and resources and support they need to make the game we are used to. But we are directing our complaints at the company as a whole and at the decisions made while making this game. It's NOT directed at individuals. We understand. But as customers and simmers and lovers of this game, we can't be silent just because it makes your job harder, or because you feel it's unfair. We want our game back. Maxis/EA messed up. That's it. And we won't be silent just because some think it's the greatest game since cheese. (We honestly couldn't care less about games with cheese.) We want a true simulation game, with animations, and all life stages, and creative tools, and sandbox game play. We have been telling you this, loudly at times, from the day this game was released. It's NOT our fault the company as a whole does not have the resources or support to make it happen. It's NOT our fault the decisions from the leaders in the company was to make a watered down, shallow version. It's NOT our fault not all simmers play the same way. The game should be inclusive, not exclusive.
Simulation games does not have a 'main stream' mode - because then it's not a sim game. Maxis/EA leadership did not realize this. They naively thought they could do whatever they wanted and throw the game through whatever vision wrangler they wanted. That is NOT our fault that they don't understand this game, or the simmer fan base, or what a sim game is. NOT. OUR. FAULT.
I still love you, @SimGuruDrake and I still love you Dear Devs. This is not about you. It's about a beloved game and its fans. This is about a company failing to see what made a game. So I'm sorry, but that's the truth.
I know you can't tell us what's in store. And personally I wouldn't even care, if I got my game back. *whispers* Please can I get my game back?
Edited for coherence.
Thank you @luthienrising! I appreciate that you took the time to explain it as well as you did.
I do agree with you, making these changes ahead of time is the right and responsible thing to do.
I was not at all aware that private and public companies were different in this regard, but it does make sense. Again, thank you.
I agree that our comments aren't necessarily opposing, and I'm glad you guys understood what I was trying to say... I was writing it all on my iPhone and I didn' t know if I was making any sense!
I guess I was trying to address the people who were frustrated by the communication strategy rather than happy/not happy/etc with the game. It can be rough on both sides, at least when I have to do it at my job. (But the gurus are a lot nicer than me... muahahaha...)
Personally I could care less about the communication and whether they tell us about upcoming content or not, and based on their reasons I think it's pointless to keep asking for information that they can't or won't provide. If people are unhappy about specific things that are missing and it's a game breaker for them, then they probably should just stop buying any more packs until they know that content is actually being added because they are NOT going to say one way or the other beforehand. I know that's a frustrating prospect for a lot of people, but it is what it is. Maybe it's easy for me to say that now because I really don't care what they do with this game; there are way too many things that I don't like in the base game that they are extremely unlikely to ever change.
But the game IMO is lacking all kinds of meaningful content and I think that is the essential problem. I think that some things would require too many changes to the game and that wouldn't be profitable for them, but there's a lot of other things that could potentially make customers happy. There have been no lack of suggestions on the things players would like to see, and these things go way beyond toddlers or cars. If, as I suspect, there are problems with adding content to the game, if it's too difficult to make changes that adding content requires and that is what is causing these lengthy time periods without EPs or GPs (as well as the never-ending bugs) then they had better fix that soon if they want the forum to have fewer complaints.
That is all.
Where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?!
I see about number one. You can't cannot tell anyone about toddler because it is against the policy. Now I am beginning to understand. I'm mostly sick of the fans complaining everyday.
Standing ovation.
I love that thread, too! I'm so sorry no SimGuru has had the time to drop in since early June.
I feel like a lot could be done to 'save' this game in my eyes, but it seems clear that those changes will not be considered. If change comes it will be at the whim of the devs, not due to any collaboration with the fans. I hope there are some folks on the team who understand what's changed, what's missing, and I hope they can find their voices in the next game of this franchise if there is one.
I joined these forums with the announcement of sims 4, because I felt I didn't not speak as I watched sim city fall. I have tried my best to speak it in defense of this, my favourite past time, but it feels all a bit futile now. Forgive the melodramatics, but I feel this whole conversation has been a turning point for me.
This is not my game anymore. It's no one's fault, really, but EA has gone a direction I've no interest in following, and if the only way we will be engaged is if the entire internet stops making mean comments, well... It's never going to happen.
I was gonna do this big post to try to explain the issues and potential solutions one last time but... It's been done. And the big 'lost faith' goodbye post has been done too, and every time I see one it's like losing a friend. Anyway, enough. Good luck sims team, please consider my plea to return to meaningful, powerful, internally consistent sims experience if you end up making another one.
So long, and thanks for all the sims.
Seriously?
Because it's a fact.
Because empathy. You (broad, not specific) want me to turn around and go on a bloody march and boycott the product because it doesn't suit you, yet you won't actually consider that people have different thoughts and opinons on the product and like it as it is.
Of course, your feedback matters, but I don't know many who would throw buying and happy customers under the bus for people who haven't brought in months (most cases, not all). Not normally covered in Business 101, I'd have thought.
It's not about feeling entitled, really? You've just told anybody who likes the game that they're wrong, aren't a true simmer and wouldn't know a sims game if it came and smacked them in the mouth. What they like isn't relevant, the game needs fixing for you. And that the people making the game can't do their job, they need guidance from you, to make it a true sims game. Most of them have been doing it for years and have worked on multiple iterations and packs. They don't need help or guidance.
You're not the only players, which goes back to the beginning, it's a fact that there are others who feel differently, You can't or shouldn't expect that they'll 'fix' the game to please you at the expense of those who are quite content.
I'm not even answering that your opinions have been treated as fact by you.
A. silence about future content
B. silence about current content
The 'A' type is mostly what has been addressed in this thread. Honestly I feel like the SimGurus have answered this one up and down in the past several weeks. @SimGuruGraham has explained the live service model and how development is much more flexible about what's coming out when than in previous games; @SimGuruDrake has explained (with help from @luthienrising) that there are actual laws, not just unsympathetic marketing policies, that prevent the team from talking about future content. SGDrake is right - she has been repeating herself over and over again about this. I used to be upset about how we were in the dark about future content, but now I think they've made it clear why that has to be the case, and I have definitely made my peace with it.
Personally I would like it if the forum could largely move on to bringing 'B' type of issues to the fore. There are still a lot of unanswered questions about mechanics that already exist in the game. SGDrake has assured me that she is looking into just one of these - why relationship culling/inactive played relationship decay were not announced in the patch notes that introduced them - but there are many more. Why, for example, are players given so few options about game mechanics? No age sliders, no toggle for aliens or alien abductions, no option to give your Sim a landline instead of a smartphone (okay this is minor but it's a pet peeve of mine - we're not all living in Silicon Valley), no ability to assign our own Sims as rabbit hole NPCs or store employees or restaurant employees, no options for how to manage the death of Sims, and no customization whatsoever in the Emotions system... These are just a couple I can think of off the top of my head, but in the threads I have participated most in lately (mostly about culling and decay mechanics), these are pressing concerns that often get lost in the waves of demand for information about future content.*
*(ETA because okay I know landlines aren't exactly a "pressing concern" hahaha it just peeves me because there are lots of countries where everyone still has a landline, I mean the only person in my family who doesn't have one is my uncle who lives in California
Add Manage Neighbourhood Options - assign your own Sim to NPC jobs!
The Problems with Death in The Sims 4
Distinguish Elder gameplay with Elder-only reward traits
Filter Rugs by Room Size
Very well said.
“Instead of putting players in the role of Luke Skywalker, or Frodo Baggins, I'd rather put them in the role of George Lucas.”Will Wright.
Also I really regret some people are making something personal out of it. Wanting to shut people up in special sections like caged animals or something and imo that's not exactly suppressed by the guru, who seems to take this all very personal where it's not. And who focuses on and attacks the so called attitude of simmers, instead of taking it for what it is: critique on the game. This is about a game, not about persons.
At the end of the day I don't care about this all. Nobody has to like 'me' (the player) and if you can't talk to me ok, don't talk then. Deliver. Make me want to play this game.
The second issue is more about the players feeling let down in general about the game as well as a disappointment that all the carefully thought out suggestions and ideas are/or seem to be completely ignored. Which is basically what you are saying in your last sentence, I think, when you say 'make me want to play this game'.
I also never came to the forums during TS3, I was too busy having fun. Never occurred to me to do anything but occasionally look to see what was coming out next.
I also agree with you big time. It should never be about the players but always about the game. Both parties involved have been guilty of making it about people. Wouldn't it be nice to really hear the words in the most genuine manner possible: what can we do to make this game better for you?
“Instead of putting players in the role of Luke Skywalker, or Frodo Baggins, I'd rather put them in the role of George Lucas.”Will Wright.
I haven't read all of the responses yet, but I'm sure it'll be depressing from what I still started to read last night. But yes 100% to this: if you can't talk to me ok, don't talk then. Deliver. Make me want to play this game.
So, off to reading this thread, though I'll probably teach my class before I find the time to answer.
I went to the SimsVIP forum by the way, because I heard it was very positive and all negative people were banned there. And stumbled into a post "The Simsvip forums have been dead for months! What happened".
Not only this, but any time communication is brought up about something, such as the livestreams for the latest packs that have come out, chat gets spammed with everything they can't talk about and nothing about the current pack being shown. Last livestream Drake (and possibly other gurus) had to heavily moderate the chat just to keep it on topic.
It's all well and good to say "let's talk about current content then!" and then not let them do so, nor engage them in it. At every opportunity that's been given to this community to have a back-and-forth 'honest discussion', it gets taken over by those that have no interest in such a thing. We want this! We're owed that! We don't care what you're doing now until we get x,y and z! Same thing happened way back when the gurus would have Q&As or whatever they were called. Which is why they don't have them anymore.
They'd rather spam over and over stuff that the gurus can't talk about and everyone under the sun already knows about, as well as tell the gurus to change jobs, or dictate to them how to do their jobs. The sooner people understand the gurus can't talk about future content after being told a million times, the sooner they'll get more information on what can be talked about.
Yeah, I will try and phrase a response to all this (in lists, because I understand it's easier for you to read/respond to) later today.
One thing though, when I read statements like that, or that you "wouldn't wish your job on anyone", I could tell you the same thing you've told us before: if you're going to approach the community with such a negative mindset, you're bound to be disappointed by it. If you think that a discussion with the devs could turn out difficult, because some people (not all, mind you) are unwilling (or unable? I'm not entirely sure how you see this) to understand the intricacies of development, then maybe you should find a way to moderate those kinds of Ask-A-Guru talks in a way that will be less likely to happen. Like someone already said (if I remember well what I've read last night), why not ask people to send their questions in beforehand, then pick a couple of the better ones and let 2-3 gurus answer each one. You can even immediately close the thread afterwards, if you consider it necessary. Or find another way. I'm sure there is one, but I personally feel like you believe that most of us are incapable of understanding the complexity of your job anyway.
But okay, I'm tired and I'm focused on my job right now, so if this comes off as too negative, I apologize. I will try and write a thought out response later on
I hope this is not out of the subject. I like the looks of the pre made sims (townies that came with the worlds) a lot, they look very unique and I think a lot of care was taken into making them. I don't know who created them whether the gurus made them or some other special artists. Is it possible in future to interview some of them?
Interviewing the artist and knowing which sims he created, what things inspired him and whether there was any real life inspiration from a real person. A blog like that will be very interesting. I appreciate if this is done sometime in future.