One last thing, this makes me so sad. Nothing seems to be working out...it's nothing but shame. The past of toddlers of Sims keeps haunting in my mind foever....
A lot of toddler talk, huh?
It is funny as I have a friend who doesn't play The Sims and I shown him the forums once.
His reaction when he saw a lot of toddler threads was like this:
One last thing, this makes me so sad. Nothing seems to be working out...it's nothing but shame. The past of toddlers of Sims keeps haunting in my mind foever....
A lot of toddler talk, huh?
It is funny as I have a friend who doesn't play The Sims and I shown him the forums once.
His reaction when he saw a lot of toddler threads was like this:
i play sims3 for my toddlers and if i want a adult game i play the sims 4( not very oftern ) but why do people only need to play the sims 4?/ i play all kinds of games GTA fallout 3/4 the elder scrolls etc
@AnnMaria Yes I am a grown woman but also never have bashed people here...posters or employees. Many times I disagree but that's not bashing. I've told them what I think is wrong and what I'd like to see.
.........but here's the thing......the people who work for Maxis are not my "buds". They develop and market a game that I have liked. They didn't do it as a favor. The company paid them and charged me money for what I got. If I feel it's not up to the past standards of the franchise then I have space here to give feedback.....okay?
Not saying all of the fans. The disagree is fine as long you are being honest with actual criticism. If Maxis listened to your feedback, it would be unknown if they actually listened to it.
One last thing, this makes me so sad. Nothing seems to be working out...it's nothing but shame. The past of toddlers of Sims keeps haunting in my mind foever....
A lot of toddler talk, huh?
It is funny as I have a friend who doesn't play The Sims and I shown him the forums once.
His reaction when he saw a lot of toddler threads was like this:
i play sims3 for my toddlers and if i want a adult game i play the sims 4( not very oftern ) but why do people only need to play the sims 4?/ i play all kinds of games GTA fallout 3/4 the elder scrolls etc
I play TS3 when I want a little of everything and some good game play. I play TS2 when I want even better game play. I open TS4 when I want to fool around with CAS.
"People really love to explore 'failure states. In fact, the failure states are really much more interesting than the success states." ~ Will Wright
One last thing, this makes me so sad. Nothing seems to be working out...it's nothing but shame. The past of toddlers of Sims keeps haunting in my mind foever....
A lot of toddler talk, huh?
It is funny as I have a friend who doesn't play The Sims and I shown him the forums once.
His reaction when he saw a lot of toddler threads was like this:
@AnnMaria strange as it may seem but you cannot please all the people all of the time. There might well be something in the future of this game which brings you back here to complain. Then it might be easier to understand why some of these people are posting here now.
I no longer use Origin or My Page. You can find me on YouTube or Twitter as Bettyboop711000. You are welcome to contact me as I explore options for a PC sandbox life simulation game.
Wherever I am friends call me Betty
@AnnMaria strange as it may seem but you cannot please all the people all of the time. There might well be something in the future of this game which brings you back here to complain. Then it might be easier to understand why some of these people are posting here now.
Pretty much. I am trying so pursue at least some people.
We can added Neighborhood editing, terrain editing, better Emotions (cause we remember what they said about past game emotions being fake), So less smiley faces.... so many other things I'm leaving out.
@SimmieSims I am not defending anybody (except today, it seems, myself). The only thing I have done recently that seems to annoy some people is to add some detail to the explanations that SimGurus, not me, gave about the regulations that prevent them, as a publicly traded company, from saying certain things - detail I looked up because it was a set of regulations I didn't know about, and I was interested in knowing more. It doesn't matter how much money a company has: it can't just wish away those regulations. I suppose that EA could take itself private - buy out all the stockholders - and no longer have to abide by those regulations. But then it wouldn't have that money to put into development. I've explained earlier some ways in which those regulations are in consumers' interest, not against us; I'm not going to repeat myself.
FWIW, I assume that they haven't said there will never be cars, toddlers, pets, seasons, or XYZ in the game because those things could come to the game. (The first four have also been included in surveys, and the game is only just approaching two years into what previously has been a five-year cycle.) And FWIW, we got pets two and two and half years into Sims 2 and 3, respectively; we got weather three and three and a half years in. Cars and toddlers would be similarly intensive design and development jobs, so I don't expect that if we are going to get all those things, it's going to happen all at once. Additions will likely to be spread over the life of the game, like always. I hope you get the ones you want instead of being told they're never coming.
I read the same post that Graham linked to and did you also note none of that goes fully into effect until 2018? Yes the GAP/NONGAP reporting does go into affect shortly - but the rules by what the Sims 4 is being made at present is using language not in affect until 2018 regardless. Only accounting right now has a concern - which by the way is not even covered in that writ but I was made aware of it on the Stock market and the August Conference Call for EA even before this discussion.
I noticed and I am a bit perplexed by that tbh. It seems Maxis have self-imposed this by choice rather early...?
My impression is that there's been a phasing in of the regulations. I didn't see in what I read what portions were older, what were not-till-2018. And I do have the impression that it's pretty common to not wait till the last minute to switch systems, and that once you have, you have. That's as much as I know about the situation, though. Most of what I've seen written up in the business press has been larger-scale issues around the process of getting to new standards in the first place.
@luthienrising of course, that makes sense. Nobody leaves it until the last min when switching systems and it probably takes quite a while (as in years) to implement these level of changes to a large company. Interesting reading for sure.
I'm a girl who likes to play with boys, what can I say...
“Instead of putting players in the role of Luke Skywalker, or Frodo Baggins, I'd rather put them in the role of George Lucas.”Will Wright.
All of us, devs and fans, need to stop. This is getting ridiculous and I come on here and see this stuff everyday. Every single day. When Maxis makes something not having to do with toddlers, we complain and they seem like ignoring us.
Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, all comments on Sims accounts about toddlers. Toddlers toddlers toddlers. How long will this keep going? Until death do us a part?
This is where this old statement always play in my mind a closed mouth never gets fed If we speak up on what we want than eventually we will get an answer which in my case I just a simple firm yes or no to the toddler topic because in my opinion it's waisted my time in a week or so it have waisted two years of my time I'm tired of waiting give me and answer so I can move on.
Maybe it would be easier for the Sims 4 team to create a Preschool age instead? It would be smaller than the current child age, but still have some toddleresque characteristics. They would have all their toddler skills already completed. It would be covering the ages of 3 to 5.
Maybe it would be easier for the Sims 4 team to create a Preschool age instead? It would be smaller than the current child age, but still have some toddleresque characteristics. They would have all their toddler skills already completed. It would be covering the ages of 3 to 5.
100% agreed. Maybe try something new other than toddlers.
All of us, devs and fans, need to stop. This is getting ridiculous and I come on here and see this stuff everyday. Every single day. When Maxis makes something not having to do with toddlers, we complain and they seem like ignoring us.
Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, all comments on Sims accounts about toddlers. Toddlers toddlers toddlers. How long will this keep going? Until death do us a part?
This is where this old statement always play in my mind a closed mouth never gets fed If we speak up on what we want than eventually we will get an answer which in my case I just a simple firm yes or no to the toddler topic because in my opinion it's waisted my time in a week or so it have waisted two years of my time I'm tired of waiting give me and answer so I can move on.
Ugh it's terrible I know. Maxis refuse to say withou any reason. It's kind of weird....
All of us, devs and fans, need to stop. This is getting ridiculous and I come on here and see this stuff everyday. Every single day. When Maxis makes something not having to do with toddlers, we complain and they seem like ignoring us.
Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, all comments on Sims accounts about toddlers. Toddlers toddlers toddlers. How long will this keep going? Until death do us a part?
This is where this old statement always play in my mind a closed mouth never gets fed If we speak up on what we want than eventually we will get an answer which in my case I just a simple firm yes or no to the toddler topic because in my opinion it's waisted my time in a week or so it have waisted two years of my time I'm tired of waiting give me and answer so I can move on.
Ugh it's terrible I know. Maxis refuse to say withou any reason. It's kind of weird....
They've explained multiple times on the forums but it's late and I have to work tomorrow so I can't search for it. Quick explanation is that because of financial regulations, they aren't allowed to talk about free future content until the quarter in which the content will be released. Be thankful they haven't come out and said toddlers aren't possible or aren't planned for the game like they did with CASt and Open World. It means that there's a good chance they're either working on them or trying to figure them out.
Origin ID: ebuchala I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high-functioning psychopath. Reaper
Maybe it would be easier for the Sims 4 team to create a Preschool age instead? It would be smaller than the current child age, but still have some toddleresque characteristics. They would have all their toddler skills already completed. It would be covering the ages of 3 to 5.
Sure it would be easier since they would not need to be carried but not better, in no way is a Preschooler a solution. Instead of hoping out of the bassinet as older child they hop out of the bassinet as younger child it would leave the huge development gap of the baby growing and learning to walk/talk and so on.
Sims 4 went from "You Rule" to "One of the stories we want you to tell"
@SimGuruDrake I hope you'll allow me to respond to this, even if this was in another thread. And I hope you'll take the time to read it
1. I know you do your best and my comment was mostly to reiterate it to others.
2. You're right I am disappointed that a strong relationship hasn't been built yet but I also know that it does take time (Rome wasn't built in a day after all). The issue isn't that no one on either side isn't open to the idea, trust me the devs would LOVE to chat with you about development and reach out to the community more. The issue is that the forums are toxic --from my point of view, the devs point of view, and to many other people who would like to engage here and don't-- and when the devs have tried to throw quite a few bones they get bitten every time. There comes a point where it's just feels like your time is better spent else where with people who will take the time to have great conversations without trying to rip your head off (so to speak). Many people think the developers are obligated to come talk to players on social or even in the forums, they aren't. The only one even remotely obligated to do so is myself and even then forums and social media engagement is like 5% of my job compared to everything else I do that goes unseen. So when anyone on the team does take the time to engage with all of you rather than hound them about things that you know they can't talk about (and putting them in an extremely awkward position) why not start a conversation that is conductive to you both? And when they do chat with you about development and processes rather than immediately follow up with "too hard too expensive" or saying they are "lazy" because they say something you may not like or understand you ask even more questions. This team is filled with amazing knowledge about game development and even more knowledge about the Sims franchise and while not all of them have been working on the franchise it self for it's entirety a lot of them have been playing it since it was first released.
3. I know that you, and others who do take the time to be constructive with feedback, care deeply about this game because otherwise you wouldn't be take the time to have full length responses to things I've said. I'd love if this were the case for everyone, would make engagement and feedback loops so much better.
I'm sure that to some of you, and some of us, the forums feel toxic. I wouldn't use that word per se, but I get where you're coming from. A lot of topics and conversations get hijacked, and not always by very useful comments, burying the ones that were in fact constructive and conductive to a healthy debate. I can get that. And I understand that devs often have better things to do than to engage in these kinds of topics because they'd never get to the end of responding to everyone even if they tried. And yes, I know some people are a little insulting. And I'm sure sometimes you think that about my posts too, but they aren't meant to be insulting. You know, if the forums are toxic, and other people have said it wasn't like that on TS3 forums, there is a reason for that. What you will have to keep in mind, though, is that this toxicity isn't about you or even directed at you. Neither is it at the devs. Which doesn't mean that it won't feel like that from time to time, because whenever you're on the receiving end of complaints, that's exactly what it does end up feeling like. I know customers can get extremely rude & frustrated, sometimes criticizing everything you do - even when you're trying to help them. But I've also learned that oftentimes, when customers get a little bit too nasty, and especially when this happens in bulk, then they might actually be coming from a very honest, disappointed place. It may look like they're taking it out on you - and maybe some people do, but I doubt it's most of us - but they've got nowhere else to go with how they feel. They hope that you can see through the "toxicity" of it all, into the heart of the issues. I know that "some people like TS4", but if most people liked it, the few people who spread what seems to be nothing but toxic words, would be in such a large minority that everyone would likemindedly refer to them as trolls. And the others would be too happy about their game to care much about what these trolls have to say. They wouldn't take them seriously, because they'd clearly be spreading negativity for the sake of it and their words wouldn't be representing what the majority think. But I personally don't think that's the case here. I'm not trying to enrage the masses when I say what I say on these forums. Perhaps I'm trying to lend, in my own way, a voice to the piles and piles of concerns I've read. And the ones I remember best were posts written by users who really did take their time to think about changes / feedback in a constructive way. Who've written lengthy posts about how things - like toddlers, emotions, traits, playable jobs, interactions, family play, rotational play - could be improved, with suggestions that went far beyond the "I want to see this/that" but instead focused on what's possible in the game now and how that could be expanded upon in the future. I haven't seen a lot of Gurus give any kind of recognition to that. Oftentimes you respond to very simple questions or to enraged mobs, but many of the best posts I've read here, never got an answer. They were never acknowledged to exist, or stickied, no guru ever said to them "wow that's actually really cool, I'll discuss this with someone". And just for the record, I'm not referring to any of my own posts when I say that. So maybe the forums would be less toxic if you could spend just as much attention to those, honestly constructive, suggestions as you seem to do right now to what you feel isn't constructive. If you could elevate those posts and open them up to the same kind of open discussion you tried (but feel you failed) to have with us here in this thread (and I'm sorry that didn't work out for you), maybe that would change your view on some users. And perhaps if people felt the work they've put into coming up with new ideas to help you make the game better and more appreciated by a very, very large number of people, the forums would become less toxic over time because they, too, would change their view on you. Maybe if devs themselves could pop in to only those threads and constructively answer as to why some of their ideas are or aren't possible, people would get a much better understanding of what they can / can't expect in terms of development. Feedback won't ever be perfect, tbh, and like you said, a lot of people on here aren't developers. But it can be improved, over time, by engaging much more with those that do write long, long, thought out arguments and suggestions, and less with those that say "Toddlers. Now. Announce, Gurus!".
4. Influencers will always be a thing but I think there is one thing that is confusing people: these individuals don't get access to content until AFTER announce, not before. They don't represent *you* (the core) they represent the wider social media audience. The core already have representation: Me. But you've opened up an opportunity for me to ask a question that I want everyone to really think about and this is 100% a hypothetical scenario: What if we did create a group where those involved could provide feedback about things at the start of production, I'm talking as far as the initial theme selection. But only X number of people could be in it and they were only the core (i.e. those who engage here) and it would be locked behind NDA's. How would you treat those individuals? Think about the way you treat the Gurus now, with speculation / twisting words / etc...would you feel in a better place and feel "calmer" if you knew you had "representatives" speaking on your behalf throughout the development process knowing that they can't talk to you about any of it?
I can't tell you how that would turn out, but I know for a fact that if you did end up working with certain people, I would understand that they can't tell us anything, but I would trust them to do what's in our best interest. That doesn't mean we'll get what we want, but I guess it would feel reassuring to a lot of people to know that you pick a couple of varied influential users on the forum, with different visions/opinions, who have no other agenda than to make the game as great as possible for everyone. But idk, I really can't tell you how any of that would factually work out if it ever came to that. Perhaps you can make a thread about it? See how people respond, if they do at all? I guess that would give you a better idea, cause I'm sure not everyone will have seen that question, especially not now that the topic's closed.
I wish you a very nice day, and I hope you're not too offended by what I write. I'm just not the type to sugarcoat my words a lot, but that doesn't mean they come from a bad place.
1. Survey's are not the same as to what I'm talking about. The issues in the forums aren't issues being brought up by the wider Sims gaming populace (I have the data on this but not I cannot provide it) so when discussing something like this idea in particular I'm saying that the core people HERE in the FORUMS would have direct representation.
I really wonder which issues you had in mind there... It's probably pointless to ask since you did say that you can't provide the data. But everywhere I go on the Internet it seems like the major issues are the same... On the other hand, we do have a lot more scope for specific concerns here beyond the headliners of toddlers, weather, etc. (which we do have in spades too, of course). I wouldn't go so far as to say, though, that because those more specific concerns aren't brought up on other sites, people who follow those sites don't also share those concerns. Facebook and Twitter, for example, are not the best platforms for a player to lay out their thoughtful argument for why the emotions or traits system should be changed. Those media are much better suited for a quick "Why no toddlers yet EA?" than a five-paragraph essay on subtle but significant issues in the game.
ETA: Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant to say by bringing that point into it - I know that that particular comment was in the context of what sorts of concerns influencers drawn from different communities would bring to the table.
As a follow up to my previous post. Look at this, for example, @SimGuruDrake - that's just marvelous. It's but one of many, many examples of excellent feedback. To my knowledge, no one has ever responded to that. Or to anything similar. Why is that? This isn't even about toddlers, so you have to see this frustration goes quite far beyond that and open world? No matter how much sympathy I have for you & the devs, it is beyond me why posts like these (and there are so, so many of them) never get any kind of recognition at all. And then, when a lot of people start getting frustrated because they feel no one takes their friendly feedback seriously, and maybe even turn nasty, that's just too late to step in and respond. It should happen long before that.
I wish that the emotions were less all or nothing and instead worked on a sliding scale that applied to an overall 'mood bar'. (Greenxen and @Anavastia had a great chat about it here.)
Basically how it would work would be that 'good' emotion moodlets would add to the mood score, 'bad' moodlets would detract from it, and the bar itself would change colour depending on the dominant emotion.
Events, environment and needs create moodlets which effect mood rating. Mood ratings: -20 (Terrible Mood) > -10 (Very Bad Mood) > -5 (Bad Mood) > -4 to +4 (Fine) > +5 (Good Mood) > +10 (Very Good Mood) > +20 (Fantastic Mood)
Emotions are unlocked once a sim is in either a good or a bad mood, but only positive emotions are available in good moods, and negative emotions during bad moods. (Emotions like 'dazed' and embarrassed' should be temporary overruling emotions that are available in any mood and are effected by traits.)
How it works currently, a sim could have +2 happy from an event, and +3 angry from another, but +2 happy from decor. Should that sim be happy or angry? Well, currently, it depends on what room they are standing in, lol. That little +2 happy from decor moodlet is fleeting, and so the sim will switch back and forth rapidly between happy and angry as that +2 decor comes and goes. For me, this is a huge problem, and it keeps a sims personality on the flip flop, and makes it difficult for their traits to shine through.
If the moodlet values were additive instead of absolute, that sims mood would be either -1 without decor, or +1 with. A sim must reach +/-5 to be in a good/bad mood to even experience emotion, otherwise they are in the 'fine' range (-4 to +4). In order for the sim to use the emotional idle animations/facial expressions associated with various moods they should need to be in extremes of emotion, so either in a very bad (-10) or very good (+10) mood. This would create a buffer zone (-9 mood to +9 mood), removing the issue where sims visibly jump between opposing emotions very quickly. Sims could still move smoothly from happy to confident, for example, and the bar would change from normal green to confident blue but in order to go from confident to sad, the sim's mood would need to drop by a minimum of 10 points, and in order for a sim to jump from visibly happy (facial expressions/idles/walks) to visibly sad this would require a minimum drop of 20 points.
Handling Major Life Events: when a sim's close friend/family member dies they should receive a -20 moodlet "Recent Death" moodlet, as well as a "Lost a loved one" moodlet (-10 for average sim, -5 for evil, -15 for good, -15 for family oriented if loved one was family member). The recent death moodlet would wear off over time - let's say 1 point per hour - but the lost a loved one moodlet would remain for several days depending on traits (ie an evil sim would keep the 'lost loved one' moodlet for only two days, an average sim would have it for 3, and a good sim would have it for 4. A family oriented sim would have it for 4 but only if it was a family member. Are we getting the idea here?) This way, the "recent death" moodlet would ensure that our sim is in a bad mood + sad emotion from the death for a minimum of 10 hours. At the 10 hour mark, the sim could potentially be 'fine' again but they would have to have +20 good mood points in order to counteract both the 'recent death' and 'lost loved one' moodlets. Challenging, but not impossible. Flip this around for having children, ('New baby!' taking the place of 'Recent Death', and 'Proud parent' taking the place of "Lost a Loved One".) Same concept can apply to getting married, reaching the top of a career, fulfilling a lifetime wish... or whatever big-deal-life-changing-thing you can think of.
Animations: The transition between happy>confident/playful/inspired/energized/focused is much less than the transition between happy>sad/angry/tense/uncomfortable, and so the visual impact of this on the player would be that the sim appears much less "bi-polar" and spends a lot more time feeling 'fine'. I think if a sim is left to their own devices they should pretty much just be 'fine' all the time - this makes the player feel like their actions have more impact on the sim's lives. As mentioned in the first section, the emotional idles/facial expressions/walks should only appear once the sim has reached the 'Very Good/Bad' level of mood, to 1. indicate that their emotions are running high 2. give the illusion of increasing intensity as a sim climbs (or falls) to the extreme end of the mood spectrum and 3. correct the issue where sims facial expressions and body language change drastically over short periods of time. So for example, a sim who is at only +6 mood, can not be Very Inspired, only Inspired. This means they are not doing the inspired idles, but are still able to access all the inspired interactions, autonomous behaviors, and whims. The sim would need to reach +10 mood before they could become Very Inspired and you will start to see them performing emotional idles.
Trait Based Emotions: Sims would not be able to feel positive emotions while in a negative mood, and vice versa. These emotional moodlets would simply be treated as either positive or negative for the purposes of mood calculation. However, a moodlet given by a trait should not be completely ignored, or we run the risk of further diluting their personalities. I suggest that they only receive random trait pushed emotions when they are in the appropriate mood. So a creative sim who is in a good mood might become inspired, but when that creative sim is in a bad mood those moodlets will not appear. Sims should naturally want to be in the mood that best corresponds with their favored emotion. So for example a hot headed sim would actually want to be in a bad mood and would prefer to autonomously do things which lower his mood so that he can feel angry, a gloomy sim would want to be in a bad mood so that they can feel sad, etc. Their whims and actions should reflect this and be a driving force behind their personalities. Sims who have not experienced their favored emotional state in several days should get a negative/tense moodlet and roll whims to achieve that emotion.
Max/Min Mood: Hitting the +20 or -20 threshold would give the sim a "Good day" or "Bad Day" moodlet which would last until the sim slept and encourage the mood to remain in the green or in the red for the remainder of the day. Again, one more guard against mood flip flopping. If the sim managed to achieve both the good/bad day moodlets, the moodlets would combine into a "Crazy day!" Moodlet which would grant a bonus mood value to WHICHEVER mood the sim was in be it good or bad. Sims would be able to talk about their good/bad/crazy day with other, and would respond more appropriately when 'asked about day', complete with corresponding speech bubble. Emotional deaths would only be possible while a sim was at max or min mood.
From there, they need to take a three pronged approach to improving trait impact on gameplay:
Moodlets:
For this system to work it is crucial that they re-balance the moodlets. They are - for lack of a better term - totally out of whack. They need to look at the traits, and look at the moodlets, and make sure that traits impact the value of the moodlets a sims receives.
Needs:
Re-visit Need-gain/Need-loss from activities and make sure those are impacted by traits as well.
Whims:
Whims need to be more contextual and need to draw from a larger pool. (Currently my family oriented sim has the whim to buy a toy literally every single day. When I cancel whims and cycle through to the next, it shows up every other click.) Sims need to recognize when they complete stages of a lifetime wish, and have some sense of satisfaction from that act. Right now it is a purely player-centered feature (ie. "Gain points to win rewards that make the game easier!" Instead of "Complete your sims wishes to help them achieve self actualization and gain rewards that make their lives easier!")
Let's take a look at 'Active' as an example of how to properly implement this proposed system:
-Active sims should gain 10% more fun from exercising, and lose 10% less hygiene. Their likeliness to work out autonomously should be higher than other sims so long as their energy is above 25%.
-Their fun gain from any activity that involves sitting (gaming/tv watching/reading) should be 10% lower than other sims. (These percentage values should, again, be additive - so an active sim that also loves the outdoors might suffer -20% need gain when performing a sedentary, indoor activity.)
-Lets say an active sim is 25% less likely to choose reading a book in favor of other more active fun-gain activities. Yes, they might still go for a book if they are tired, or if for whatever reason they have no active fun gain options available, but this should add to the 'bored' emotion. (Note the distinction here: it would fill their fun bar, yet also give them a "Fidgety" bored-moodlet, adding to a negative mood and bored emotion. Mood is not directly tied to needs, however if all needs are very high or low, they receive a moodlet to that effect which applies to mood rating.)
-Active sims would gain fun from reading 10% slower than your average sim, and might be prone to falling asleep while reading. Their priority would be to raise their energy back up over 25% so that they can once again do the activities they enjoy, perhaps rolling a whim to 'have a nap', or even doing so autonomously.
-Now what if the active sim is also a bookworm? No problem. The -10% fun gain from reading would be evened out by the book worm's +10% from reading. Now the active sim received average fun-gain from reading. When full of energy, the sim would be 25% more likely to choose active fun-gain activities over sedentary ones, but when tired and faced with a choice of sedentary activities, the sim would be 25% more likely to choose a book over any other form of entertainment. They would also not receive the "Fidgety" moodlet from reading, it would instead be overruled by the "Enjoying a good book" positive/focused moodlet. These conflicting trait preferences would need to be closely examined by the team on a case by case basis resulting in some unique sims. In this case the active + book worm sim would act differently, and receive different moodlets than a active + anything else sim. I know this is a bit complicated, but think this is the good kind of complexity, that should never have been removed from this game.
PHEW! OK, glad I got that all out of my head. What do you guys think of this solution?
edited: re-read it and fiddled a bit with some wording, principle remains unchanged.
I've always figured that Gurus don't respond to those sorts of posts because they don't want to give false hope, or if they do respond and say "we'll look into it" or "thanks for sharing your ideas about that" some users might misconstrue it as a promise that that idea will actually make it into the game.
ETA: Not saying that the user who wrote that post would make that assumption - her posts are great and she seems like a very reasonable person. I just think they worry that some users would get up false hope.
I wish that the emotions were less all or nothing and instead worked on a sliding scale that applied to an overall 'mood bar'. (Greenxen and @Anavastia had a great chat about it here.)
Basically how it would work would be that 'good' emotion moodlets would add to the mood score, 'bad' moodlets would detract from it, and the bar itself would change colour depending on the dominant emotion.
Events, environment and needs create moodlets which effect mood rating. Mood ratings: -20 (Terrible Mood) > -10 (Very Bad Mood) > -5 (Bad Mood) > -4 to +4 (Fine) > +5 (Good Mood) > +10 (Very Good Mood) > +20 (Fantastic Mood)
Emotions are unlocked once a sim is in either a good or a bad mood, but only positive emotions are available in good moods, and negative emotions during bad moods. (Emotions like 'dazed' and embarrassed' should be temporary overruling emotions that are available in any mood and are effected by traits.)
How it works currently, a sim could have +2 happy from an event, and +3 angry from another, but +2 happy from decor. Should that sim be happy or angry? Well, currently, it depends on what room they are standing in, lol. That little +2 happy from decor moodlet is fleeting, and so the sim will switch back and forth rapidly between happy and angry as that +2 decor comes and goes. For me, this is a huge problem, and it keeps a sims personality on the flip flop, and makes it difficult for their traits to shine through.
If the moodlet values were additive instead of absolute, that sims mood would be either -1 without decor, or +1 with. A sim must reach +/-5 to be in a good/bad mood to even experience emotion, otherwise they are in the 'fine' range (-4 to +4). In order for the sim to use the emotional idle animations/facial expressions associated with various moods they should need to be in extremes of emotion, so either in a very bad (-10) or very good (+10) mood. This would create a buffer zone (-9 mood to +9 mood), removing the issue where sims visibly jump between opposing emotions very quickly. Sims could still move smoothly from happy to confident, for example, and the bar would change from normal green to confident blue but in order to go from confident to sad, the sim's mood would need to drop by a minimum of 10 points, and in order for a sim to jump from visibly happy (facial expressions/idles/walks) to visibly sad this would require a minimum drop of 20 points.
Handling Major Life Events: when a sim's close friend/family member dies they should receive a -20 moodlet "Recent Death" moodlet, as well as a "Lost a loved one" moodlet (-10 for average sim, -5 for evil, -15 for good, -15 for family oriented if loved one was family member). The recent death moodlet would wear off over time - let's say 1 point per hour - but the lost a loved one moodlet would remain for several days depending on traits (ie an evil sim would keep the 'lost loved one' moodlet for only two days, an average sim would have it for 3, and a good sim would have it for 4. A family oriented sim would have it for 4 but only if it was a family member. Are we getting the idea here?) This way, the "recent death" moodlet would ensure that our sim is in a bad mood + sad emotion from the death for a minimum of 10 hours. At the 10 hour mark, the sim could potentially be 'fine' again but they would have to have +20 good mood points in order to counteract both the 'recent death' and 'lost loved one' moodlets. Challenging, but not impossible. Flip this around for having children, ('New baby!' taking the place of 'Recent Death', and 'Proud parent' taking the place of "Lost a Loved One".) Same concept can apply to getting married, reaching the top of a career, fulfilling a lifetime wish... or whatever big-deal-life-changing-thing you can think of.
Animations: The transition between happy>confident/playful/inspired/energized/focused is much less than the transition between happy>sad/angry/tense/uncomfortable, and so the visual impact of this on the player would be that the sim appears much less "bi-polar" and spends a lot more time feeling 'fine'. I think if a sim is left to their own devices they should pretty much just be 'fine' all the time - this makes the player feel like their actions have more impact on the sim's lives. As mentioned in the first section, the emotional idles/facial expressions/walks should only appear once the sim has reached the 'Very Good/Bad' level of mood, to 1. indicate that their emotions are running high 2. give the illusion of increasing intensity as a sim climbs (or falls) to the extreme end of the mood spectrum and 3. correct the issue where sims facial expressions and body language change drastically over short periods of time. So for example, a sim who is at only +6 mood, can not be Very Inspired, only Inspired. This means they are not doing the inspired idles, but are still able to access all the inspired interactions, autonomous behaviors, and whims. The sim would need to reach +10 mood before they could become Very Inspired and you will start to see them performing emotional idles.
Trait Based Emotions: Sims would not be able to feel positive emotions while in a negative mood, and vice versa. These emotional moodlets would simply be treated as either positive or negative for the purposes of mood calculation. However, a moodlet given by a trait should not be completely ignored, or we run the risk of further diluting their personalities. I suggest that they only receive random trait pushed emotions when they are in the appropriate mood. So a creative sim who is in a good mood might become inspired, but when that creative sim is in a bad mood those moodlets will not appear. Sims should naturally want to be in the mood that best corresponds with their favored emotion. So for example a hot headed sim would actually want to be in a bad mood and would prefer to autonomously do things which lower his mood so that he can feel angry, a gloomy sim would want to be in a bad mood so that they can feel sad, etc. Their whims and actions should reflect this and be a driving force behind their personalities. Sims who have not experienced their favored emotional state in several days should get a negative/tense moodlet and roll whims to achieve that emotion.
Max/Min Mood: Hitting the +20 or -20 threshold would give the sim a "Good day" or "Bad Day" moodlet which would last until the sim slept and encourage the mood to remain in the green or in the red for the remainder of the day. Again, one more guard against mood flip flopping. If the sim managed to achieve both the good/bad day moodlets, the moodlets would combine into a "Crazy day!" Moodlet which would grant a bonus mood value to WHICHEVER mood the sim was in be it good or bad. Sims would be able to talk about their good/bad/crazy day with other, and would respond more appropriately when 'asked about day', complete with corresponding speech bubble. Emotional deaths would only be possible while a sim was at max or min mood.
From there, they need to take a three pronged approach to improving trait impact on gameplay:
Moodlets:
For this system to work it is crucial that they re-balance the moodlets. They are - for lack of a better term - totally out of whack. They need to look at the traits, and look at the moodlets, and make sure that traits impact the value of the moodlets a sims receives.
Needs:
Re-visit Need-gain/Need-loss from activities and make sure those are impacted by traits as well.
Whims:
Whims need to be more contextual and need to draw from a larger pool. (Currently my family oriented sim has the whim to buy a toy literally every single day. When I cancel whims and cycle through to the next, it shows up every other click.) Sims need to recognize when they complete stages of a lifetime wish, and have some sense of satisfaction from that act. Right now it is a purely player-centered feature (ie. "Gain points to win rewards that make the game easier!" Instead of "Complete your sims wishes to help them achieve self actualization and gain rewards that make their lives easier!")
Let's take a look at 'Active' as an example of how to properly implement this proposed system:
-Active sims should gain 10% more fun from exercising, and lose 10% less hygiene. Their likeliness to work out autonomously should be higher than other sims so long as their energy is above 25%.
-Their fun gain from any activity that involves sitting (gaming/tv watching/reading) should be 10% lower than other sims. (These percentage values should, again, be additive - so an active sim that also loves the outdoors might suffer -20% need gain when performing a sedentary, indoor activity.)
-Lets say an active sim is 25% less likely to choose reading a book in favor of other more active fun-gain activities. Yes, they might still go for a book if they are tired, or if for whatever reason they have no active fun gain options available, but this should add to the 'bored' emotion. (Note the distinction here: it would fill their fun bar, yet also give them a "Fidgety" bored-moodlet, adding to a negative mood and bored emotion. Mood is not directly tied to needs, however if all needs are very high or low, they receive a moodlet to that effect which applies to mood rating.)
-Active sims would gain fun from reading 10% slower than your average sim, and might be prone to falling asleep while reading. Their priority would be to raise their energy back up over 25% so that they can once again do the activities they enjoy, perhaps rolling a whim to 'have a nap', or even doing so autonomously.
-Now what if the active sim is also a bookworm? No problem. The -10% fun gain from reading would be evened out by the book worm's +10% from reading. Now the active sim received average fun-gain from reading. When full of energy, the sim would be 25% more likely to choose active fun-gain activities over sedentary ones, but when tired and faced with a choice of sedentary activities, the sim would be 25% more likely to choose a book over any other form of entertainment. They would also not receive the "Fidgety" moodlet from reading, it would instead be overruled by the "Enjoying a good book" positive/focused moodlet. These conflicting trait preferences would need to be closely examined by the team on a case by case basis resulting in some unique sims. In this case the active + book worm sim would act differently, and receive different moodlets than a active + anything else sim. I know this is a bit complicated, but think this is the good kind of complexity, that should never have been removed from this game.
PHEW! OK, glad I got that all out of my head. What do you guys think of this solution?
edited: re-read it and fiddled a bit with some wording, principle remains unchanged.
Oh my God. I would LOVE it if they implemented such a system! Honestly, it makes way more sense (and it's so much more complex) than the current system. I think this is he kind of constructive feedback the developers need, and it's a shame it's often buried and lost.
However I wonder if the developers could actually implement such an overhaul of the current emotion system. Honestly, from a business perspective, I'm afraid it would require too much work and resources for a free update (but then again, so did the gender patch and they still managed to get it out so...)
Oh my God. I would LOVE it if they implemented such a system!
As far as I can tell, that IS pretty much how it works?
No it doesn't work like that. That's precisely the point of the OP. As the OP mentioned, we currently have an "all or nothing" system, which make sims look slightly bipolar at times (going through several different emotions in the same day). The OP proposes a more gradual system, which in my opinion sounds much more reasonable. Also with this system, traits have a greater impact on emotions (instead of the other way around, where emotions override traits).
Comments
A lot of toddler talk, huh?
It is funny as I have a friend who doesn't play The Sims and I shown him the forums once.
His reaction when he saw a lot of toddler threads was like this:
[img]http://🐸🐸🐸🐸.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/jon-stewart-confused-what.gif[/img]
i play sims3 for my toddlers and if i want a adult game i play the sims 4( not very oftern ) but why do people only need to play the sims 4?/ i play all kinds of games GTA fallout 3/4 the elder scrolls etc
Not saying all of the fans. The disagree is fine as long you are being honest with actual criticism. If Maxis listened to your feedback, it would be unknown if they actually listened to it.
I play TS3 when I want a little of everything and some good game play. I play TS2 when I want even better game play. I open TS4 when I want to fool around with CAS.
Lol I would have the same reaction
Wherever I am friends call me Betty
Sim enim est vita
Pretty much. I am trying so pursue at least some people.
@luthienrising of course, that makes sense. Nobody leaves it until the last min when switching systems and it probably takes quite a while (as in years) to implement these level of changes to a large company. Interesting reading for sure.
“Instead of putting players in the role of Luke Skywalker, or Frodo Baggins, I'd rather put them in the role of George Lucas.”Will Wright.
This is where this old statement always play in my mind a closed mouth never gets fed If we speak up on what we want than eventually we will get an answer which in my case I just a simple firm yes or no to the toddler topic because in my opinion it's waisted my time in a week or so it have waisted two years of my time I'm tired of waiting give me and answer so I can move on.
100% agreed. Maybe try something new other than toddlers.
Ugh it's terrible I know. Maxis refuse to say withou any reason. It's kind of weird....
This is a bit of an out-of-place comment, but I've been lurking for a while and I just want to say that I really love your posting.
They've explained multiple times on the forums but it's late and I have to work tomorrow so I can't search for it. Quick explanation is that because of financial regulations, they aren't allowed to talk about free future content until the quarter in which the content will be released. Be thankful they haven't come out and said toddlers aren't possible or aren't planned for the game like they did with CASt and Open World. It means that there's a good chance they're either working on them or trying to figure them out.
I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high-functioning psychopath. Reaper
I'm sure that to some of you, and some of us, the forums feel toxic. I wouldn't use that word per se, but I get where you're coming from. A lot of topics and conversations get hijacked, and not always by very useful comments, burying the ones that were in fact constructive and conductive to a healthy debate. I can get that. And I understand that devs often have better things to do than to engage in these kinds of topics because they'd never get to the end of responding to everyone even if they tried. And yes, I know some people are a little insulting. And I'm sure sometimes you think that about my posts too, but they aren't meant to be insulting. You know, if the forums are toxic, and other people have said it wasn't like that on TS3 forums, there is a reason for that. What you will have to keep in mind, though, is that this toxicity isn't about you or even directed at you. Neither is it at the devs. Which doesn't mean that it won't feel like that from time to time, because whenever you're on the receiving end of complaints, that's exactly what it does end up feeling like. I know customers can get extremely rude & frustrated, sometimes criticizing everything you do - even when you're trying to help them. But I've also learned that oftentimes, when customers get a little bit too nasty, and especially when this happens in bulk, then they might actually be coming from a very honest, disappointed place. It may look like they're taking it out on you - and maybe some people do, but I doubt it's most of us - but they've got nowhere else to go with how they feel. They hope that you can see through the "toxicity" of it all, into the heart of the issues. I know that "some people like TS4", but if most people liked it, the few people who spread what seems to be nothing but toxic words, would be in such a large minority that everyone would likemindedly refer to them as trolls. And the others would be too happy about their game to care much about what these trolls have to say. They wouldn't take them seriously, because they'd clearly be spreading negativity for the sake of it and their words wouldn't be representing what the majority think. But I personally don't think that's the case here. I'm not trying to enrage the masses when I say what I say on these forums. Perhaps I'm trying to lend, in my own way, a voice to the piles and piles of concerns I've read. And the ones I remember best were posts written by users who really did take their time to think about changes / feedback in a constructive way. Who've written lengthy posts about how things - like toddlers, emotions, traits, playable jobs, interactions, family play, rotational play - could be improved, with suggestions that went far beyond the "I want to see this/that" but instead focused on what's possible in the game now and how that could be expanded upon in the future. I haven't seen a lot of Gurus give any kind of recognition to that. Oftentimes you respond to very simple questions or to enraged mobs, but many of the best posts I've read here, never got an answer. They were never acknowledged to exist, or stickied, no guru ever said to them "wow that's actually really cool, I'll discuss this with someone". And just for the record, I'm not referring to any of my own posts when I say that. So maybe the forums would be less toxic if you could spend just as much attention to those, honestly constructive, suggestions as you seem to do right now to what you feel isn't constructive. If you could elevate those posts and open them up to the same kind of open discussion you tried (but feel you failed) to have with us here in this thread (and I'm sorry that didn't work out for you), maybe that would change your view on some users. And perhaps if people felt the work they've put into coming up with new ideas to help you make the game better and more appreciated by a very, very large number of people, the forums would become less toxic over time because they, too, would change their view on you. Maybe if devs themselves could pop in to only those threads and constructively answer as to why some of their ideas are or aren't possible, people would get a much better understanding of what they can / can't expect in terms of development. Feedback won't ever be perfect, tbh, and like you said, a lot of people on here aren't developers. But it can be improved, over time, by engaging much more with those that do write long, long, thought out arguments and suggestions, and less with those that say "Toddlers. Now. Announce, Gurus!".
I can't tell you how that would turn out, but I know for a fact that if you did end up working with certain people, I would understand that they can't tell us anything, but I would trust them to do what's in our best interest. That doesn't mean we'll get what we want, but I guess it would feel reassuring to a lot of people to know that you pick a couple of varied influential users on the forum, with different visions/opinions, who have no other agenda than to make the game as great as possible for everyone. But idk, I really can't tell you how any of that would factually work out if it ever came to that. Perhaps you can make a thread about it? See how people respond, if they do at all? I guess that would give you a better idea, cause I'm sure not everyone will have seen that question, especially not now that the topic's closed.
I wish you a very nice day, and I hope you're not too offended by what I write. I'm just not the type to sugarcoat my words a lot, but that doesn't mean they come from a bad place.
I really wonder which issues you had in mind there... It's probably pointless to ask since you did say that you can't provide the data. But everywhere I go on the Internet it seems like the major issues are the same... On the other hand, we do have a lot more scope for specific concerns here beyond the headliners of toddlers, weather, etc. (which we do have in spades too, of course). I wouldn't go so far as to say, though, that because those more specific concerns aren't brought up on other sites, people who follow those sites don't also share those concerns. Facebook and Twitter, for example, are not the best platforms for a player to lay out their thoughtful argument for why the emotions or traits system should be changed. Those media are much better suited for a quick "Why no toddlers yet EA?" than a five-paragraph essay on subtle but significant issues in the game.
ETA: Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant to say by bringing that point into it - I know that that particular comment was in the context of what sorts of concerns influencers drawn from different communities would bring to the table.
Add Manage Neighbourhood Options - assign your own Sim to NPC jobs!
The Problems with Death in The Sims 4
Distinguish Elder gameplay with Elder-only reward traits
Filter Rugs by Room Size
ETA: Not saying that the user who wrote that post would make that assumption - her posts are great and she seems like a very reasonable person. I just think they worry that some users would get up false hope.
Add Manage Neighbourhood Options - assign your own Sim to NPC jobs!
The Problems with Death in The Sims 4
Distinguish Elder gameplay with Elder-only reward traits
Filter Rugs by Room Size
@SimTrippy @SimGuruDrake
Oh my God. I would LOVE it if they implemented such a system! Honestly, it makes way more sense (and it's so much more complex) than the current system. I think this is he kind of constructive feedback the developers need, and it's a shame it's often buried and lost.
However I wonder if the developers could actually implement such an overhaul of the current emotion system. Honestly, from a business perspective, I'm afraid it would require too much work and resources for a free update (but then again, so did the gender patch and they still managed to get it out so...)
As far as I can tell, that IS pretty much how it works?
No it doesn't work like that. That's precisely the point of the OP. As the OP mentioned, we currently have an "all or nothing" system, which make sims look slightly bipolar at times (going through several different emotions in the same day). The OP proposes a more gradual system, which in my opinion sounds much more reasonable. Also with this system, traits have a greater impact on emotions (instead of the other way around, where emotions override traits).