@Triplis I'm not a sheep, nor is anyone else. I formed my opinion on my own.
Generally speaking, when someone makes a post talking about something you already were thinking then you'll probably end up commenting that you agree (more or less). That doesn't mean I or anyone else was manipulated in some fashion into thinking the same way.
It's just incredible to me that I made an accurate prediction, and in response you need to insinuate I'm manipulative...? In what world do you live in that this is deemed acceptable behavior?!
By the way, this is especially disingenuous (but I get it, you want to make sure everyone knows that you're the victim and I'm being mean). You did more than make a prediction. You made more than one thread calling the entire process into question.
@DeservedCriticism
The others aren't really newer idea either, all of them have been suggested on the forum or on twitter at various points. I've quoted SimGuruGraham's tweet about nectar making, but a couple of days earlier he was answering about funerals/cemeteries (which have been mentionned countless times on the forum, and are even on SimGuruDaniel wish list), An arcade venue for teens has been suggested a lot. Weddings/honeymoon are a popular theme (like http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/833793/how-about-a-wedding-stuff-pack/p1). And I remember I've participated in eco living topics on the forum. Laundry may have made more noise lately, but I think it was precisely a nice opportunity for the other themes to make some noise too.
Funnily enough if you read the answers to SimGuruGraham's tweet about laundry, you'll see someone suggesting an Eco Living SP
It's just incredible to me that I made an accurate prediction, and in response you need to insinuate I'm manipulative...? In what world do you live in that this is deemed acceptable behavior?!
By the way, this is especially disingenuous (but I get it, you want to make sure everyone knows that you're the victim and I'm being mean). You did more than make a prediction. You made more than one thread calling the entire process into question.
Is this a crime?
Lol. Is that how you exist in the world? Everything is either 100% good or evil criminal?
@Triplis I'm not a sheep, nor is anyone else. I formed my opinion on my own.
Generally speaking, when someone makes a post talking about something you already were thinking then you'll probably end up commenting that you agree (more or less). That doesn't mean I or anyone else was manipulated in some fashion into thinking the same way.
I swung by to see if I might get involved in the process but it appears that all this really revolves around is people playing the Vegas odds on what the voting results will be and then gloating at each other based on what number came up via the roulette wheel. Not the most mature or productive approach to assembling a piece of DLC. I'll pass.
It's just incredible to me that I made an accurate prediction, and in response you need to insinuate I'm manipulative...? In what world do you live in that this is deemed acceptable behavior?!
By the way, this is especially disingenuous (but I get it, you want to make sure everyone knows that you're the victim and I'm being mean). You did more than make a prediction. You made more than one thread calling the entire process into question.
Is this a crime?
Lol. Is that how you exist in the world? Everything is either 100% good or evil criminal?
@Triplis I'm not a sheep, nor is anyone else. I formed my opinion on my own.
Generally speaking, when someone makes a post talking about something you already were thinking then you'll probably end up commenting that you agree (more or less). That doesn't mean I or anyone else was manipulated in some fashion into thinking the same way.
Yeah, I know.
Answer the question.
This is very simple: you just personally attacked me and accused me of manipulating people. Yes, I think that counts as an attack and yes, I expect some form of justification and evidence for it. If you cannot provide that, 🐸🐸🐸🐸 right I want an apology. That you just blindly accused me of manipulation, and then when confronted about it you act like I have a victim complex or something...? Seriously, what the heck is wrong with you? You're hostile for NO REASON whatsoever. You came into this thread, made a bold accusation, and then you act like I'm being outrageous when I call it out for what it is: a bold, unsupported and unwarranted attack.
Nothing I did was a crime. Nothing I did was out of line. Nothing I did warrants this. You've done nothing to support your rather serious accusation. Do you perhaps see why I accuse you of tone-policing Triplis? You cannot name a single thing I did wrong, and yet you're shaming me to the point you're accusing me of being a manipulative person just for discussing this. When I call you out on it, you change the subject and shame me for a victim complex. Like what the heck...
And through it all, I still have to ask "what the heck caused this?" What on earth caused you to suddenly make such a bold accusation 4 pages in when previously you did no such thing? I cannot help but wonder if you're somehow upset I made an accurate predictions, and those emotions boiled over into this strange left-field accusation we see here. I have no idea and it doesn't matter, but regardless? I'd thank you not to make unfounded, unsupported accusations like that. Quite frankly, if this is how you're gonna discuss this topic, I'd thank you to see yourself out. Lord knows your tone-policing has already derailed enough threads around here.
Mostly, some people are just mad that what they wanted to win didn't win.
I voted for the eco pack initially because of laundry, but seeing the brainstorming list reminded me that this is an eco themed pack and I realized that the other concepts were more eco oriented than laundry in comparison. Plus, new ways we could enjoy our simming experience. At first I was so clouded with my want for laundry so much that I didn't think to consider anything else.
I think a lot of the disappointment stems from simmers disappointed that laundry doesn't encompass the theme as much as the other options and that we'll probably never see the other concepts again. Honestly, I would've been fine with carbon conscious or food preserves, even though I preferred off the grid, simply because those are eco themed and would've given us all a new way of playing.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we are able to vote in this SP and the Sims team is involving the community. I just hope that if they do something like this again, perhaps only involve concepts we aren't familiarized with and/or have played with previously to avoid the new concepts not standing a chance against an already established, previous simming concept. Lastly, I will use laundry since I've wanted laundry for a while like other simmers, but I just wanted laundry for another pack.
Mostly, some people are just mad that what they wanted to win didn't win.
I'm no saying no one is mad that what they wanted didn't win, there's some, but it's not everyone, here the point isn't to hate on laundry, it's to say that it was clear since the start it's what would win. The other themes and gameplay objects didn't have a fair chance against laundry even if their were awesome.
They showed awesome concepts and ideas that there's high chances we never see in game. Why they didn't just put laundry in a pack, and let it out of the vote, they could have put it in Parenthood, City Living or in it's own SP, people that wanted laundry would have been happy either way as long as it's in the game and in a pack.
They wasted the potential of having something new or something different by putting laundry in the options.
@Triplis I'm not a sheep, nor is anyone else. I formed my opinion on my own.
Generally speaking, when someone makes a post talking about something you already were thinking then you'll probably end up commenting that you agree (more or less). That doesn't mean I or anyone else was manipulated in some fashion into thinking the same way.
I agree. I do agree with the OP, but I have thought the same thing since the beginning long before any of his threads.
To be absolutely true Eco Friendly as that was the theme of this pack - no one should have even had to chose the solar etc energy concept to be honest - it should have been expected if they call it ECO friendly period - the choices for the vote we just had - should have been between the laundry, the canning/nectar making and two other ideas period. The minute they put what is normal eco friendly practices - in the same thought as things one would enjoy having on the eco friendly lots - then that whole concept was bogus. We should have seen everything needed as eco friendly was part of the pack - the solar, the recycling, wind power, even composting - those are basic principles of an eco friendly environment. That is the whole problem of this whole pack. The minute there was no way to support eco friendly living - then the theme of the pack itself is pure bogus concept. That is my argument.
Theme Vote (April 3rd - April 6th): Select the overall theme for the pack. Every part of the pack will be influenced by this key decision. Remember that when we picked from the 5 themes -
and The winner was Eco Friendly.
This is why all the rest is a problem to some of us. That was theme of the whole pack - Graham said so - that people choose - not the title - but the theme.
The actual title has not even been decided.
But like all other themes of a pack - well you sort of expect what ever the theme of the pack is - is what the pack is all about. It was Eco friendly. UNder that theme some things as I said above were just expected for anything else on a lot to be eco -friendly - it should not have had to have been voted on. That is the issue. At least it is my issue.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
In dreams - I LIVE!
In REALITY, I simply exist.....
It's just incredible to me that I made an accurate prediction, and in response you need to insinuate I'm manipulative...? In what world do you live in that this is deemed acceptable behavior?!
By the way, this is especially disingenuous (but I get it, you want to make sure everyone knows that you're the victim and I'm being mean). You did more than make a prediction. You made more than one thread calling the entire process into question.
Is this a crime?
@Triplis I think you're being unfair with this "DC is manipulative" stuff. You said yourself before, i think, that people should be able to openly criticize freely. DC may pick on the developers/Sims 4 quite a bit and while the negativity can be a buzzkill at times and frustrating; it ain't a crime and he isn't manipulative.
Criticism helps things improve. I think some of what has been said here on this thread has gone a bit too far and into conspiracy territory, but nonetheless.
People are frustrated because the other ideas didn't remotely stand a chance. And this was a genuine mistake, i believe, on the set up. But I don't think it was intentional beyond maybe putting in a pre-established idea they weren't 100% sure would resonate or not. Not to mention things have been extra tense here between the divide on laundry and what content should be out into resources on (new or old).
I believe this was a good process just from a developer to fans POV. Not without flaws, but 🐸🐸🐸🐸 happens. The gurus are probably expecting a lot of backlash, cause frustration/controversy/drama alwaaaaays is a regular thing here.
But also @DeservedCriticism i gotta say that the earlier gloating really wasn't necessary. You've done it before and I've ignored it but come on. Its rude/annoying not to mention ain't helping your popularity. I know it gets frustrating because you get backlash a lot for being critical most of the time, but seriously.
It's just incredible to me that I made an accurate prediction, and in response you need to insinuate I'm manipulative...? In what world do you live in that this is deemed acceptable behavior?!
By the way, this is especially disingenuous (but I get it, you want to make sure everyone knows that you're the victim and I'm being mean). You did more than make a prediction. You made more than one thread calling the entire process into question.
Is this a crime?
@Triplis I think you're being unfair with this "DC is manipulative" stuff. You said yourself before, i think, that people should be able to openly criticize freely. DC may pick on the developers/Sims 4 quite a bit and while the negativity can be a buzzkill at times and frustrating; it ain't a crime and he isn't manipulative.
Criticism helps things improve. I think some of what has been said here on this thread has gone a bit too far and into conspiracy territory, but nonetheless.
People are frustrated because the other ideas didn't remotely stand a chance. And this was a genuine mistake, i believe, on the set up. But I don't think it was intentional beyond maybe putting in a pre-established idea they weren't 100% sure would resonate or not. Not to mention things have been extra tense here between the divide on laundry and what content should be out into resources on (new or old).
I believe this was a good process just from a developer to fans POV. Not without flaws, but plum happens. The gurus are probably expecting a lot of backlash, cause frustration/controversy/drama alwaaaaays is a regular thing here.
But also @DeservedCriticism i gotta say that the earlier gloating really wasn't necessary. You've done it before and I've ignored it but come on. Its rude/annoying not to mention ain't helping your popularity. I know it gets frustrating because you get backlash a lot for being critical most of the time, but seriously.
@Triplis Didn't you go after me for very passively suggesting that EA was being at least strategically manipulative (emphasis on strategically)? Why do you feel it's fine to call people manipulative when it's very clear you dislike when others do? It doesn't affect you one way or another.
Edited for wording.
Origin ID: graple2001
I build things and sometimes share them. I'm not hogging, I'm just slow. I've recently wiped my gallery, so there might not be stuff up for a while.
Mostly, some people are just mad that what they wanted to win didn't win.
I'm no saying no one is mad that what they wanted didn't win, there's some, but it's not everyone, here the point isn't to hate on laundry, it's to say that it was clear since the start it's what would win. The other themes and gameplay objects didn't have a fair chance against laundry even if their were awesome.
They showed awesome concepts and ideas that there's high chances we never see in game. Why they didn't just put laundry in a pack, and let it out of the vote, they could have put it in Parenthood, City Living or in it's own SP, people that wanted laundry would have been happy either way as long as it's in the game and in a pack.
They wasted the potential of having something new or something different by putting laundry in the options.
My point was that there was a number of new replies to this thread, people coming fresh from the vote, still riding whatever wave of emotion they may have had from the result. Some of it may have just been coming in to agree, sure, but this isn't an objective process. People who have been following it get invested in it.
Mostly, some people are just mad that what they wanted to win didn't win.
I voted for the eco pack initially because of laundry, but seeing the brainstorming list reminded me that this is an eco themed pack and I realized that the other concepts were more eco oriented than laundry in comparison. Plus, new ways we could enjoy our simming experience. At first I was so clouded with my want for laundry so much that I didn't think to consider anything else.
I think a lot of the disappointment stems from simmers disappointed that laundry doesn't encompass the theme as much as the other options and that we'll probably never see the other concepts again. Honestly, I would've been fine with carbon conscious or food preserves, even though I preferred off the grid, simply because those are eco themed and would've given us all a new way of playing.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we are able to vote in this SP and the Sims team is involving the community. I just hope that if they do something like this again, perhaps only involve concepts we aren't familiarized with and/or have played with previously to avoid the new concepts not standing a chance against an already established, previous simming concept. Lastly, I will use laundry since I've wanted laundry for a while like other simmers, but I just wanted laundry for another pack.
Oh, I understand the disappointment. People want what they want out of the sims and not everybody can get what they want, and it sucks.
As far as what you're suggesting, the problem is, how does the sims team determine what counts as a concept we aren't familiar with? If it's just stuff that hasn't been in the sims series before, it could still end up with one concept being far more popular than the others. Do they do a poll on twenty topics to narrow it down to four and then go from there? I don't see any way the process will be without a biased slant on what people want.
It was never meant to be about "winning" or "losing" anyway, from the way I've seen Graham describe it. It was about giving the community a chance to participate in a process and get a crack at a piece of content they may not otherwise get in TS4. It sucks that it can't please everyone, but what can you do.
It's just incredible to me that I made an accurate prediction, and in response you need to insinuate I'm manipulative...? In what world do you live in that this is deemed acceptable behavior?!
By the way, this is especially disingenuous (but I get it, you want to make sure everyone knows that you're the victim and I'm being mean). You did more than make a prediction. You made more than one thread calling the entire process into question.
Is this a crime?
Lol. Is that how you exist in the world? Everything is either 100% good or evil criminal?
@Triplis I'm not a sheep, nor is anyone else. I formed my opinion on my own.
Generally speaking, when someone makes a post talking about something you already were thinking then you'll probably end up commenting that you agree (more or less). That doesn't mean I or anyone else was manipulated in some fashion into thinking the same way.
Yeah, I know.
Answer the question.
This is very simple: you just personally attacked me and accused me of manipulating people. Yes, I think that counts as an attack and yes, I expect some form of justification and evidence for it. If you cannot provide that, plum right I want an apology. That you just blindly accused me of manipulation, and then when confronted about it you act like I have a victim complex or something...? Seriously, what the heck is wrong with you? You're hostile for NO REASON whatsoever. You came into this thread, made a bold accusation, and then you act like I'm being outrageous when I call it out for what it is: a bold, unsupported and unwarranted attack.
Nothing I did was a crime. Nothing I did was out of line. Nothing I did warrants this. You've done nothing to support your rather serious accusation. Do you perhaps see why I accuse you of tone-policing Triplis? You cannot name a single thing I did wrong, and yet you're shaming me to the point you're accusing me of being a manipulative person just for discussing this. When I call you out on it, you change the subject and shame me for a victim complex. Like what the heck...
And through it all, I still have to ask "what the heck caused this?" What on earth caused you to suddenly make such a bold accusation 4 pages in when previously you did no such thing? I cannot help but wonder if you're somehow upset I made an accurate predictions, and those emotions boiled over into this strange left-field accusation we see here. I have no idea and it doesn't matter, but regardless? I'd thank you not to make unfounded, unsupported accusations like that. Quite frankly, if this is how you're gonna discuss this topic, I'd thank you to see yourself out. Lord knows your tone-policing has already derailed enough threads around here.
This isn't rocket science, but I guess if the world revolves only around your ego, it may be difficult to wrap your head around it, as there is stuff happening that isn't related to your ego. So maybe if I type your name a bunch that will help. DC, DC, DC.
Here's a recap of events (you're used to writing a million words per post, so I figure you can do some reading):
Upon noticing that a number of people were posting discontent about the poll results in this thread and making comments to the effect of, "Wow, you were right," and posting confirmation of your premise, as if the poll results have somehow confirmed that the process was a flawed idea from the start, even though it isn't finished.
I wrote the following:
At this point, I think discussions like this have caused more drama than the actual decision to include Laundry. It's helping to create a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And people say EA is manipulative...
I don't deny that I wrote this. Not sure why I would. They are my words. So what was my meaning here? I stated my opinion/assessment that discussions like this one have caused more drama than the actual decision to include Laundry. Part of the premise of your thread was this:
Yes I'm aware game developers themselves face disappointment when there isn't time or the funding on hand to complete an idea, but I'm not sure if trying to convey such disappointment to fans is the intention, or if it was, if that's a good idea either.
Your words. Describing that the way it was constructed may be more likely to generate disappointment. A couple people got what I was saying and responded with words to the effect of, "No, I already had that opinion. This thread had nothing to do with it." Well not really my point in the first place, but I pretty much moved on from the point at that point. Sometimes all it takes is one person to rally the crowd around a central point. Your thread gave people an outlet to feel vindicated in their discontent, as if it was an inevitability written in stone from the beginning.
I also said, "And people say EA is manipulative..." From the look of it, your ego attached to this part and this part alone, and has been holding onto it since.
But you understandably took it rather badly. I then clarified that I wasn't implying you changed the outcome of the vote, rather you influenced the reaction to it. I further clarified that I'm only saying it's one part of it (but a part nonetheless). I even clarified about the statement with regards to manipulation, saying:
(but I mean, why not accuse it of being intentionally manipulative? I have as much evidence for such an accusation as some of the accusations being thrown EA's way about the process... sometimes I just like making a point by holding up a mirror).
So already I have, in broad daylight, put down my own implication about manipulation, citing it as a throwaway comment to make a point. But that's not enough for you.
So what do you do from there?
You continue to hammer on that point and that point only, saying strange words, like a leading question, "Everyone is manipulative??" And ending it with the following:
It's just incredible to me that I made an accurate prediction, and in response you need to insinuate I'm manipulative...? In what world do you live in that this is deemed acceptable behavior?!
Never mind that I had already put down my own implication about manipulation at that point. I then point this out to you:
I guess in your rush to defend yourself you missed this part:
Requoting my clarification about the manipulation statement.
I then make a point about you saying that all you did was make an accurate prediction. As if your thread began and ended with the words, "By the way guys, I bet Laundry will win!"
So what gem do you respond with?
Is this a crime?
Perhaps you can begin to see my amusement at this point. That in response to my pointing out that your thread was more than just making a prediction, your instinct isn't to say something like, "Well, yes, I said those things too and I can see how you might think they would instigate conflict, but that wasn't my intention." (I mean, that would show some actual self-awareness and willingness to consider alternate points of view.) Your instinct instead is to jump from me calling a statement of yours disingenuous to implying that I'm saying you're a criminal.
So I post an amused reply, sincerely wondering if this is how you view the world, that you are either a good person or an evil person and no in-between.
What do you give me in response? An attempt to extort an apology. Accusing me of tone-policing, when this whole back and forth between the two of us has been you attempting to police my tone in your thread. You say I'm shaming you and accusing you of being a manipulative person, when I put down the manipulation point long ago and was on something else. You accuse me of changing the subject, when I've clarified basically everything I've said; something that I owe to no one, but I did it anyway.
And then on top of it, you're so blind to the whole interaction between us that you're speculating that I said what I did because you made an accurate prediction. Even in trying to insult me, it's still all about you and your accomplishments. If you wonder why some people give you a hard time on these forums, that's probably why. Not because of the criticism you post for the game, not because you argue, but because the moment a discussion gets anywhere near your ego, you lose sight of everything else and hone in on it with tunnel vision, shutting everything else out.
You accuse me of tone-policing, but boy oh boy, do you know what tone-policing means when discussions get near your ego. That's a tone you just can't abide.
Have a nice day. (Just kidding, I have to play my part as the villain, so I should probably say, "Have a horrible day!")
The outcome was going to happen regardless. People don't like losing and there was already a lot of tension between the laundry vs off the grid/canning "teams." Both aggravating one another on each side. People were going to be bitter/salty in EITHER outcome.
You accuse me of tone-policing, but boy oh boy, do you know what tone-policing means when discussions get near your ego. That's a tone you just can't abide.
Have a nice day. (Just kidding, I have to play my part as the villain, so I should probably say, "Have a horrible day!")
Origin ID: graple2001
I build things and sometimes share them. I'm not hogging, I'm just slow. I've recently wiped my gallery, so there might not be stuff up for a while.
Oh, I understand the disappointment. People want what they want out of the sims and not everybody can get what they want, and it plum.
As far as what you're suggesting, the problem is, how does the sims team determine what counts as a concept we aren't familiar with? If it's just stuff that hasn't been in the sims series before, it could still end up with one concept being far more popular than the others. Do they do a poll on twenty topics to narrow it down to four and then go from there? I don't see any way the process will be without a biased slant on what people want.
It was never meant to be about "winning" or "losing" anyway, from the way I've seen Graham describe it. It was about giving the community a chance to participate in a process and get a crack at a piece of content they may not otherwise get in TS4. It plum that it can't please everyone, but what can you do.
I'd suggest requested new concepts from the Ideas section for example, that we've never experienced in-game. It'd be a way of showing that us simmers aren't just posting in the ideas section for the heck of it. I honestly feel that had all the options been new, then it wouldn't be as bad as it is now if one option won over the other. Had laundry lost, there would've been a tremendous wave of backlash as well, but seeing as it won, a wave of backlash happened for simmers eager for something fresh and new. The common denominator is laundry. I feel that had it not been included, there wouldn't be such a huge fuss. I know I would've been alright with any of the other more eco oriented options if they had won over off the grid, because each offered great concepts. Yeah, it's true everyone can't be pleased either way.
I guess all we can do is provide suggestions, such as if this occurs again, maybe not include an already pre-existing popular feature to go against completely fresh, new concepts.
...and holy heck, this whole thread has gone south....
At this point, I think discussions like this have caused more drama than the actual decision to include Laundry. It's helping to create a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And people say EA is manipulative...
@Triplis: Who is being manipulative? I can totally see where @DeservedCriticism was coming from. Laundry should have been completely excluded from this project. The community has the opportunity to vote on completely new ideas, things that we've never seen before in The Sims, yet as soon as you put in the vote something that is heavily requested; it skews the poll. Heck, if I was petitioning for laundry and desperately wanting it, as soon as I see laundry, I'm pressing that vote button; everything else becomes clouded and I don't see anything else!
The petitions, the asks, the demand, the feedback for laundry should have been left to speak for themselves just as the toddler thread was. Like I said, many have been wanting laundry and as soon as they see it, nothing else matters! I agree as well with the person who said that if laundry had been under Starter Home...that probably would have won the vote.
Many say they want new ideas for The Sims, yet when it comes down to it and there is actually a choice, a previous feature wins! It boggles my mind!
Intentional or no, it's pretty clear that DC's thread is contributing to a line of thinking perpetuated by some that the process is inherently flawed and was doomed from the start.
But it kind of was and I don't think it's wrong to say so. Don't get me wrong, I think this whole process was pretty awesome; Simmers getting to contribute to content and actually have a say; HOWEVER, when you put in laundry (heavily requested content), it skews the results. Of course, the many that have been requesting laundry for ages would vote for laundry; heck, I would've done the same thing.
I don't see how @DeservedCriticism is wrong for pointing out that it shouldn't have been included in the vote. Like I said before, I'm willing to bet that no matter where laundry was in the theme ideas, that theme would have won.
As someone else said though, had laundry lost (although I really don't think there was a chance of that happening), there would've been backlash. So the easiest way to avoid backlash (on either side), would've been to leave it out of this process. I don't get how this line of thinking is wrong, manipulative, doomed, etc. It's an observation and DC isn't the only one to think so.
You accuse me of tone-policing, but boy oh boy, do you know what tone-policing means when discussions get near your ego. That's a tone you just can't abide.
Have a nice day. (Just kidding, I have to play my part as the villain, so I should probably say, "Have a horrible day!")
To be fair, they both do. This is a case of two guys who have to be "right" all the time and are having a hard time letting things go. They're so much alike that they can't get along. Both need to walk away, but I doubt that either will.
You accuse me of tone-policing, but boy oh boy, do you know what tone-policing means when discussions get near your ego. That's a tone you just can't abide.
Have a nice day. (Just kidding, I have to play my part as the villain, so I should probably say, "Have a horrible day!")
To be fair, they both do. This is a case of two guys who have to be "right" all the time and are having a hard time letting things go. They're so much alike that they can't get along. Both need to walk away, but I doubt that either will.
Hey now, I don't have to be "right" all the time. Like right now, I'm wrong about the fact that I don't need to be right all the time.
*sigh*
Ah forums how I love thee and thy drama
Im going to be honest I had these exact thoughts long before dc showed up to play.
My biggest give away was, an ironing board decor item and other washroom things like hampers that we could vote on (and won as an object we will get) while the other ideas had not as much representation.
@Triplis I recomend leting the angery and disapointed rant here or else they may try to eat you, your kinda in the lion pit of the spurned my friend. Escape while you still can!
It was what it was at least some simmers are happy.
I would kinda like to do this again though I had fun doing it.
You accuse me of tone-policing, but boy oh boy, do you know what tone-policing means when discussions get near your ego. That's a tone you just can't abide.
Have a nice day. (Just kidding, I have to play my part as the villain, so I should probably say, "Have a horrible day!")
To be fair, they both do. This is a case of two guys who have to be "right" all the time and are having a hard time letting things go. They're so much alike that they can't get along. Both need to walk away, but I doubt that either will.
Hey now, I don't have to be "right" all the time. Like right now, I'm wrong about the fact that I don't need to be right all the time.
This isn't rocket science, but I guess if the world revolves only around your ego, it may be difficult to wrap your head around it, as there is stuff happening that isn't related to your ego. So maybe if I type your name a bunch that will help. DC, DC, DC.
I have a confession to make: I didn't read past this line. Why? Because nothing in this line focuses on the topic, nothing in this line is productive, and it's 100% personal. That line right there may as well be you calling me manipulative again, because it shares the exact same tone and hostility.
It ties so perfectly into why I want an answer to that manipulation line: because I cannot fathom what on earth would justify it or lead you to thinking it was acceptable. I made a thread asserting that including pre-existing, past features in a poll against new, unexplored ideas is probably a bad idea that stacks the odds in favor of the old feature. This is my opinion and it's something I fully believe, and evidence thusfar seems to support it. No harm no foul, right? Well...You've now responded to this thread by calling me both manipulative and egotistical. Where is the connection? How does such a topic make me manipulative or egotistical? Why would you do this, especially when unprovoked? Well, I theorize you'd do this because this is "personal" for you and you're here to win an argument, NOT to actually discuss anything. It feels less about the topic for you, and more about me. I'm not the one bringing me up, you are. May come as a surprise to you, but I don't come here to discuss me, I come here to discuss Sims 4. That you choose to continue such behavior with lines like the above only confirms this for me that you argue solely to "win."
That line makes it quite obvious that we're past the point of actual, productive discussion about the game, and for you? This is 100% about some personal beef with me (which btw, I have none such beef with you) and proving me wrong in some way. It isn't about the discussion itself and the value of having a discussion. No, for you it's become about "winning" the discussion. I cannot fathom why else you would get so personal unless you either have gotten to the point you make personal assumptions about me as a person (which I consider unhealthy for a discussion) or because you really want to "win" the discussion by any means neccesary. I think you'll find that I do not make personal assumptions about who you are or your attitude, and the most you'll see me do is complain about tone-policing....which I do because I think it's warranted. It happens so often that a discussion with you devolves into "X should not have said that" (and that's exactly what we're doing here...again) instead of about the game and it's production. Regardless, no, I don't think me saying you devolve discussions into tone-policing is a personal jab. I've never made a personal jab about you or tried to evaluate your personality or anything of the sort, because I find trying to do so RIDICULOUS. I have no idea who you are or what you're like, so why would I bother? I've given you no reason to do that, yet here you are and in a short amount of time, you've now called me both manipulative and egotistical.
I have zero interest in having conversations with someone who argues in bad faith and cannot stick to the topic of discussion, let alone one that resorts to personal attacks even when completely unprovoked. And I just asked you to both apologize for an unwarranted attack and excuse yourself from the thread if you can't calm down. You haven't exactly done the latter, and I somehow doubt there's an apology in your post when it starts by doubling down and making another personal attack.
If you cannot control yourself and if you cannot keep our discussions strictly topical, then there's no reason for you and I to even bother having a discussion, and it seems I will have to be the one to shut the discussion down since you clearly both refuse to leave and clearly have a habit of popping up in my threads. I'll be blocking you, but I do hope you actually reflect on this and realize that....any discussions or disagreements we may have had aside...? Your attitude here and in this specific case was absolutely unacceptable. I'm not blocking you because one-strike-and-you're out or something, but because I find it very difficult to believe the attitude you showcase here will not bleed over into future discussions too. You've just made it crystal clear you're arguing in bad faith, and while that's slightly annoying for me, I think this is potentially far more damaging for yourself. You're robbing yourself of an open mind, you're robbing yourself of the ability to have a productive discussion, and with that attitude, yeah you're going to demonize those that disagree with you when there's absolutely no need for that. I fully believe having the tolerance and patience to hear out those that disagree with you is an excellent life skill because it introduces you to a wider variety of ideas and people, and that can be a great learning experience. I don't think you're showcasing such an attitude here though, but rather one that demonizes opposition. That all just leads to a path where you make broad stroke decisions about users and opinions and never quite deviate away or change your mind, and through that you'll be shutting yourself off from those opinions and people, incapable of ever understanding them. I think in the end, the bad faith attitude is a hinderance to yourself more than anyone, so I do hope you'll reflect on that and ask yourself why you chose to condone yourself the way you did today. I mean that. Don't do it for me, do it for yourself.
I have a confession to make: I didn't read past this line.
It ties so perfectly into why I want an answer to that manipulation line: because I cannot fathom what on earth would justify it or lead you to thinking it was acceptable.
So how do you expect to get an explanation if you refuse to read an explanation when it's given?
Comments
Generally speaking, when someone makes a post talking about something you already were thinking then you'll probably end up commenting that you agree (more or less). That doesn't mean I or anyone else was manipulated in some fashion into thinking the same way.
Is this a crime?
The others aren't really newer idea either, all of them have been suggested on the forum or on twitter at various points. I've quoted SimGuruGraham's tweet about nectar making, but a couple of days earlier he was answering about funerals/cemeteries (which have been mentionned countless times on the forum, and are even on SimGuruDaniel wish list), An arcade venue for teens has been suggested a lot. Weddings/honeymoon are a popular theme (like http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/833793/how-about-a-wedding-stuff-pack/p1). And I remember I've participated in eco living topics on the forum. Laundry may have made more noise lately, but I think it was precisely a nice opportunity for the other themes to make some noise too.
Funnily enough if you read the answers to SimGuruGraham's tweet about laundry, you'll see someone suggesting an Eco Living SP
Yeah, I know.
Answer the question.
This is very simple: you just personally attacked me and accused me of manipulating people. Yes, I think that counts as an attack and yes, I expect some form of justification and evidence for it. If you cannot provide that, 🐸🐸🐸🐸 right I want an apology. That you just blindly accused me of manipulation, and then when confronted about it you act like I have a victim complex or something...? Seriously, what the heck is wrong with you? You're hostile for NO REASON whatsoever. You came into this thread, made a bold accusation, and then you act like I'm being outrageous when I call it out for what it is: a bold, unsupported and unwarranted attack.
Nothing I did was a crime. Nothing I did was out of line. Nothing I did warrants this. You've done nothing to support your rather serious accusation. Do you perhaps see why I accuse you of tone-policing Triplis? You cannot name a single thing I did wrong, and yet you're shaming me to the point you're accusing me of being a manipulative person just for discussing this. When I call you out on it, you change the subject and shame me for a victim complex. Like what the heck...
And through it all, I still have to ask "what the heck caused this?" What on earth caused you to suddenly make such a bold accusation 4 pages in when previously you did no such thing? I cannot help but wonder if you're somehow upset I made an accurate predictions, and those emotions boiled over into this strange left-field accusation we see here. I have no idea and it doesn't matter, but regardless? I'd thank you not to make unfounded, unsupported accusations like that. Quite frankly, if this is how you're gonna discuss this topic, I'd thank you to see yourself out. Lord knows your tone-policing has already derailed enough threads around here.
I voted for the eco pack initially because of laundry, but seeing the brainstorming list reminded me that this is an eco themed pack and I realized that the other concepts were more eco oriented than laundry in comparison. Plus, new ways we could enjoy our simming experience. At first I was so clouded with my want for laundry so much that I didn't think to consider anything else.
I think a lot of the disappointment stems from simmers disappointed that laundry doesn't encompass the theme as much as the other options and that we'll probably never see the other concepts again. Honestly, I would've been fine with carbon conscious or food preserves, even though I preferred off the grid, simply because those are eco themed and would've given us all a new way of playing.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we are able to vote in this SP and the Sims team is involving the community. I just hope that if they do something like this again, perhaps only involve concepts we aren't familiarized with and/or have played with previously to avoid the new concepts not standing a chance against an already established, previous simming concept. Lastly, I will use laundry since I've wanted laundry for a while like other simmers, but I just wanted laundry for another pack.
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I'm no saying no one is mad that what they wanted didn't win, there's some, but it's not everyone, here the point isn't to hate on laundry, it's to say that it was clear since the start it's what would win. The other themes and gameplay objects didn't have a fair chance against laundry even if their were awesome.
They showed awesome concepts and ideas that there's high chances we never see in game. Why they didn't just put laundry in a pack, and let it out of the vote, they could have put it in Parenthood, City Living or in it's own SP, people that wanted laundry would have been happy either way as long as it's in the game and in a pack.
They wasted the potential of having something new or something different by putting laundry in the options.
I agree. I do agree with the OP, but I have thought the same thing since the beginning long before any of his threads.
Theme Vote (April 3rd - April 6th): Select the overall theme for the pack. Every part of the pack will be influenced by this key decision. Remember that when we picked from the 5 themes -
and The winner was Eco Friendly.
This is why all the rest is a problem to some of us. That was theme of the whole pack - Graham said so - that people choose - not the title - but the theme.
The actual title has not even been decided.
But like all other themes of a pack - well you sort of expect what ever the theme of the pack is - is what the pack is all about. It was Eco friendly. UNder that theme some things as I said above were just expected for anything else on a lot to be eco -friendly - it should not have had to have been voted on. That is the issue. At least it is my issue.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
In dreams - I LIVE!
In REALITY, I simply exist.....
@Triplis I think you're being unfair with this "DC is manipulative" stuff. You said yourself before, i think, that people should be able to openly criticize freely. DC may pick on the developers/Sims 4 quite a bit and while the negativity can be a buzzkill at times and frustrating; it ain't a crime and he isn't manipulative.
Criticism helps things improve. I think some of what has been said here on this thread has gone a bit too far and into conspiracy territory, but nonetheless.
People are frustrated because the other ideas didn't remotely stand a chance. And this was a genuine mistake, i believe, on the set up. But I don't think it was intentional beyond maybe putting in a pre-established idea they weren't 100% sure would resonate or not. Not to mention things have been extra tense here between the divide on laundry and what content should be out into resources on (new or old).
I believe this was a good process just from a developer to fans POV. Not without flaws, but 🐸🐸🐸🐸 happens. The gurus are probably expecting a lot of backlash, cause frustration/controversy/drama alwaaaaays is a regular thing here.
But also @DeservedCriticism i gotta say that the earlier gloating really wasn't necessary. You've done it before and I've ignored it but come on. Its rude/annoying not to mention ain't helping your popularity. I know it gets frustrating because you get backlash a lot for being critical most of the time, but seriously.
@Triplis Didn't you go after me for very passively suggesting that EA was being at least strategically manipulative (emphasis on strategically)? Why do you feel it's fine to call people manipulative when it's very clear you dislike when others do? It doesn't affect you one way or another.
Edited for wording.
I build things and sometimes share them. I'm not hogging, I'm just slow. I've recently wiped my gallery, so there might not be stuff up for a while.
Oh, I understand the disappointment. People want what they want out of the sims and not everybody can get what they want, and it sucks.
As far as what you're suggesting, the problem is, how does the sims team determine what counts as a concept we aren't familiar with? If it's just stuff that hasn't been in the sims series before, it could still end up with one concept being far more popular than the others. Do they do a poll on twenty topics to narrow it down to four and then go from there? I don't see any way the process will be without a biased slant on what people want.
It was never meant to be about "winning" or "losing" anyway, from the way I've seen Graham describe it. It was about giving the community a chance to participate in a process and get a crack at a piece of content they may not otherwise get in TS4. It sucks that it can't please everyone, but what can you do.
This isn't rocket science, but I guess if the world revolves only around your ego, it may be difficult to wrap your head around it, as there is stuff happening that isn't related to your ego. So maybe if I type your name a bunch that will help. DC, DC, DC.
Here's a recap of events (you're used to writing a million words per post, so I figure you can do some reading):
Upon noticing that a number of people were posting discontent about the poll results in this thread and making comments to the effect of, "Wow, you were right," and posting confirmation of your premise, as if the poll results have somehow confirmed that the process was a flawed idea from the start, even though it isn't finished.
I wrote the following: I don't deny that I wrote this. Not sure why I would. They are my words. So what was my meaning here? I stated my opinion/assessment that discussions like this one have caused more drama than the actual decision to include Laundry. Part of the premise of your thread was this: Your words. Describing that the way it was constructed may be more likely to generate disappointment. A couple people got what I was saying and responded with words to the effect of, "No, I already had that opinion. This thread had nothing to do with it." Well not really my point in the first place, but I pretty much moved on from the point at that point. Sometimes all it takes is one person to rally the crowd around a central point. Your thread gave people an outlet to feel vindicated in their discontent, as if it was an inevitability written in stone from the beginning.
I also said, "And people say EA is manipulative..." From the look of it, your ego attached to this part and this part alone, and has been holding onto it since.
But you understandably took it rather badly. I then clarified that I wasn't implying you changed the outcome of the vote, rather you influenced the reaction to it. I further clarified that I'm only saying it's one part of it (but a part nonetheless). I even clarified about the statement with regards to manipulation, saying:
So already I have, in broad daylight, put down my own implication about manipulation, citing it as a throwaway comment to make a point. But that's not enough for you.
So what do you do from there?
You continue to hammer on that point and that point only, saying strange words, like a leading question, "Everyone is manipulative??" And ending it with the following: Never mind that I had already put down my own implication about manipulation at that point. I then point this out to you: Requoting my clarification about the manipulation statement.
I then make a point about you saying that all you did was make an accurate prediction. As if your thread began and ended with the words, "By the way guys, I bet Laundry will win!"
So what gem do you respond with? Perhaps you can begin to see my amusement at this point. That in response to my pointing out that your thread was more than just making a prediction, your instinct isn't to say something like, "Well, yes, I said those things too and I can see how you might think they would instigate conflict, but that wasn't my intention." (I mean, that would show some actual self-awareness and willingness to consider alternate points of view.) Your instinct instead is to jump from me calling a statement of yours disingenuous to implying that I'm saying you're a criminal.
So I post an amused reply, sincerely wondering if this is how you view the world, that you are either a good person or an evil person and no in-between.
What do you give me in response? An attempt to extort an apology. Accusing me of tone-policing, when this whole back and forth between the two of us has been you attempting to police my tone in your thread. You say I'm shaming you and accusing you of being a manipulative person, when I put down the manipulation point long ago and was on something else. You accuse me of changing the subject, when I've clarified basically everything I've said; something that I owe to no one, but I did it anyway.
And then on top of it, you're so blind to the whole interaction between us that you're speculating that I said what I did because you made an accurate prediction. Even in trying to insult me, it's still all about you and your accomplishments. If you wonder why some people give you a hard time on these forums, that's probably why. Not because of the criticism you post for the game, not because you argue, but because the moment a discussion gets anywhere near your ego, you lose sight of everything else and hone in on it with tunnel vision, shutting everything else out.
You accuse me of tone-policing, but boy oh boy, do you know what tone-policing means when discussions get near your ego. That's a tone you just can't abide.
Have a nice day. (Just kidding, I have to play my part as the villain, so I should probably say, "Have a horrible day!")
@Triplis Wow, you need to take a 🐸🐸🐸🐸 chill pill.
I build things and sometimes share them. I'm not hogging, I'm just slow. I've recently wiped my gallery, so there might not be stuff up for a while.
I'd suggest requested new concepts from the Ideas section for example, that we've never experienced in-game. It'd be a way of showing that us simmers aren't just posting in the ideas section for the heck of it. I honestly feel that had all the options been new, then it wouldn't be as bad as it is now if one option won over the other. Had laundry lost, there would've been a tremendous wave of backlash as well, but seeing as it won, a wave of backlash happened for simmers eager for something fresh and new. The common denominator is laundry. I feel that had it not been included, there wouldn't be such a huge fuss. I know I would've been alright with any of the other more eco oriented options if they had won over off the grid, because each offered great concepts. Yeah, it's true everyone can't be pleased either way.
I guess all we can do is provide suggestions, such as if this occurs again, maybe not include an already pre-existing popular feature to go against completely fresh, new concepts.
...and holy heck, this whole thread has gone south....
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But it kind of was and I don't think it's wrong to say so. Don't get me wrong, I think this whole process was pretty awesome; Simmers getting to contribute to content and actually have a say; HOWEVER, when you put in laundry (heavily requested content), it skews the results. Of course, the many that have been requesting laundry for ages would vote for laundry; heck, I would've done the same thing.
I don't see how @DeservedCriticism is wrong for pointing out that it shouldn't have been included in the vote. Like I said before, I'm willing to bet that no matter where laundry was in the theme ideas, that theme would have won.
As someone else said though, had laundry lost (although I really don't think there was a chance of that happening), there would've been backlash. So the easiest way to avoid backlash (on either side), would've been to leave it out of this process. I don't get how this line of thinking is wrong, manipulative, doomed, etc. It's an observation and DC isn't the only one to think so.
Ah forums how I love thee and thy drama
Im going to be honest I had these exact thoughts long before dc showed up to play.
My biggest give away was, an ironing board decor item and other washroom things like hampers that we could vote on (and won as an object we will get) while the other ideas had not as much representation.
@Triplis I recomend leting the angery and disapointed rant here or else they may try to eat you, your kinda in the lion pit of the spurned my friend. Escape while you still can!
It was what it was at least some simmers are happy.
I would kinda like to do this again though I had fun doing it.
lol.
Geesh I needed that today.
I have a confession to make: I didn't read past this line. Why? Because nothing in this line focuses on the topic, nothing in this line is productive, and it's 100% personal. That line right there may as well be you calling me manipulative again, because it shares the exact same tone and hostility.
It ties so perfectly into why I want an answer to that manipulation line: because I cannot fathom what on earth would justify it or lead you to thinking it was acceptable. I made a thread asserting that including pre-existing, past features in a poll against new, unexplored ideas is probably a bad idea that stacks the odds in favor of the old feature. This is my opinion and it's something I fully believe, and evidence thusfar seems to support it. No harm no foul, right? Well...You've now responded to this thread by calling me both manipulative and egotistical. Where is the connection? How does such a topic make me manipulative or egotistical? Why would you do this, especially when unprovoked? Well, I theorize you'd do this because this is "personal" for you and you're here to win an argument, NOT to actually discuss anything. It feels less about the topic for you, and more about me. I'm not the one bringing me up, you are. May come as a surprise to you, but I don't come here to discuss me, I come here to discuss Sims 4. That you choose to continue such behavior with lines like the above only confirms this for me that you argue solely to "win."
That line makes it quite obvious that we're past the point of actual, productive discussion about the game, and for you? This is 100% about some personal beef with me (which btw, I have none such beef with you) and proving me wrong in some way. It isn't about the discussion itself and the value of having a discussion. No, for you it's become about "winning" the discussion. I cannot fathom why else you would get so personal unless you either have gotten to the point you make personal assumptions about me as a person (which I consider unhealthy for a discussion) or because you really want to "win" the discussion by any means neccesary. I think you'll find that I do not make personal assumptions about who you are or your attitude, and the most you'll see me do is complain about tone-policing....which I do because I think it's warranted. It happens so often that a discussion with you devolves into "X should not have said that" (and that's exactly what we're doing here...again) instead of about the game and it's production. Regardless, no, I don't think me saying you devolve discussions into tone-policing is a personal jab. I've never made a personal jab about you or tried to evaluate your personality or anything of the sort, because I find trying to do so RIDICULOUS. I have no idea who you are or what you're like, so why would I bother? I've given you no reason to do that, yet here you are and in a short amount of time, you've now called me both manipulative and egotistical.
I have zero interest in having conversations with someone who argues in bad faith and cannot stick to the topic of discussion, let alone one that resorts to personal attacks even when completely unprovoked. And I just asked you to both apologize for an unwarranted attack and excuse yourself from the thread if you can't calm down. You haven't exactly done the latter, and I somehow doubt there's an apology in your post when it starts by doubling down and making another personal attack.
If you cannot control yourself and if you cannot keep our discussions strictly topical, then there's no reason for you and I to even bother having a discussion, and it seems I will have to be the one to shut the discussion down since you clearly both refuse to leave and clearly have a habit of popping up in my threads. I'll be blocking you, but I do hope you actually reflect on this and realize that....any discussions or disagreements we may have had aside...? Your attitude here and in this specific case was absolutely unacceptable. I'm not blocking you because one-strike-and-you're out or something, but because I find it very difficult to believe the attitude you showcase here will not bleed over into future discussions too. You've just made it crystal clear you're arguing in bad faith, and while that's slightly annoying for me, I think this is potentially far more damaging for yourself. You're robbing yourself of an open mind, you're robbing yourself of the ability to have a productive discussion, and with that attitude, yeah you're going to demonize those that disagree with you when there's absolutely no need for that. I fully believe having the tolerance and patience to hear out those that disagree with you is an excellent life skill because it introduces you to a wider variety of ideas and people, and that can be a great learning experience. I don't think you're showcasing such an attitude here though, but rather one that demonizes opposition. That all just leads to a path where you make broad stroke decisions about users and opinions and never quite deviate away or change your mind, and through that you'll be shutting yourself off from those opinions and people, incapable of ever understanding them. I think in the end, the bad faith attitude is a hinderance to yourself more than anyone, so I do hope you'll reflect on that and ask yourself why you chose to condone yourself the way you did today. I mean that. Don't do it for me, do it for yourself.