O__O Wow. That's so cool! A lot of effort went into the overall routing and AI I see! I have another question though. Let's say my sim Mom makes breakfast in the morning for the whole family. And everyone else is really hungry. I realized that the sims will still get food even when the mom is serving up a whole dish. Is the sims autonomy based on needs, emotions, and surroundings? Or is it a mixture of the three?
Whoops, missed the second part of your question. Autonomy is based on a large number of factors - too long to mention them all but they include
- Motives
- EMOTIONS
- Relationships
- Situations / Events
- Objects (and proximity)
We made it a point to have our Sims be smarter, more autonomous, and more aware of their surroundings. Emotions is a huge part of it, but we also wanted them to take better care of themselves and allow the player to focus more on the long-term and other exciting aspects of the gameplay.
Oh. Okay. I'm glad that you guys did this. It makes the sims really realistic which is something I thoroughly do enjoy. I think that's all the questions I have for now. (I know it isn't but I can't think of any right now...) But thanks for answering!
Thanks! Whenever I reach a milestone on one of the likes, agrees, or lols, I always make a new one. Some of them slightly more or less disturbing (or in your case, funny) than the last. I'm still coming up with ideas for when I reach 1500.
Hello, and my question is how are actions supposed to be prioritized? is it supposed to be needs over other 'non-need' actions or is multitasking above all of that? I have had it where my Sim needs to use the toilet and I select to have them read a book (intending for them to use the toilet first then go read) but they will get to the bathroom then stop go to the bookcase to go get the book then go back to the toilet to do their business while reading. It is mildly annoying when they REALLY need to use the toilet.
Also my Sims do not go to the closest sink to wash dishes, instead they will go to the bathroom instead of the kitchen or will go up stairs just to wash them even if there are no dirty dishes up there.
I have a question about animations. Not sure if this completely relates to the topic but why is it that sims nowadays seem to be less, let's say "hands on" with their environment?
I'll compare to TS2 as an example.
In TS2 sims were a lot more involved with minor items like plates, mugs, books, items on the floor etc I mean they looked as though they physically touched them whereas with the latest iterations in the series, these bend down, pick up animations have turned into a swish of the hand it's there or a slight-extended-hand curtsy it's there.
I hope I've explained myself well :-/
I completely understand your question. Yes, we did have what we call "registration" with objects in TS2. We decided against this in TS3 and TS4 for two main reasons: First, it creates harsh constraints on where Sims can stand to pick up / put down objects. There is only ONE slot you can go to to pick something up. This means that Sims will fail to handle carryables MUCH more frequently and it causes house and object layout problems. The second reason is related to the first, which is that it causes a content explosion. Take drinks, for example. Did you notice that there are several different types of glasses? We have tumblers, coffee mugs, martini glasses, etc. Each of these requires a different grip. Since each requires a different grip, they require unique pick up / put down animations. If we want to have say three different places you could stand to get perfect registration to pick up an object, that means we need to author three versions for each grip times 2 for up/down. This multiplies out very fast.
Instead, we went with a loose constraint and a generic swipe (we still need different versions of the swipe for different grips). This lets Sims move through the house more fluidly and interact with carryable objects more reliably and flexibly.
In general, we tried to go for flexibility and smoothness over exact perfection in many cases like this. This is also why we have more clipping while routing - we decided trading the foot tapping from TS3 was worth it.
It helps me understand why these type of things are changed because the way you've explained makes it sound more beneficial for user experience.
I will be completely honest though and tell you that there are people out there like me that pay a considerable amount of attention to detail and small things like this come across as shoddy and half-rear ended (if you know what I mean ). Things like this give the game a very polished, premium feel.
However I will point out that I'm seeing A lot more attention to detail in TS4 compared to TS3 so, well done.
Hello, and my question is how are actions supposed to be prioritized? is it supposed to be needs over other 'non-need' actions or is multitasking above all of that? I have had it where my Sim needs to use the toilet and I select to have them read a book (intending for them to use the toilet first then go read) but they will get to the bathroom then stop go to the bookcase to go get the book then go back to the toilet to do their business while reading. It is mildly annoying when they REALLY need to use the toilet.<br />
<br />
Also my Sims do not go to the closest sink to wash dishes, instead they will go to the bathroom instead of the kitchen or will go up stairs just to wash them even if there are no dirty dishes up there.<br />
<br />
Thank you
Unfortunately, it sounds like you are running into some bugs.
Quick summary of how multitasking / the queue works: The temporal order of actions in the queue is respected. If something is incompatible with your current interaction state, we do not let other interactions leap-frog it. If the next interaction is incompatible, the rest of the queue blocks behind it until the active interaction making it incompatible is no longer protected (interactions have conditions - like an amount of motive gain or a timer - after which they can be canceled by other interactions). Now that it can run, it will enter the active state and cancel the old, incompatible interaction.
The Multitasking system sometimes does let Sims take a "break" as long as the interaction they are running doesn't want to stick around and permanently require them to be absent from their other activities. This is what allows Sims to go grab a plate of food while watching TV and then go back to the sofa without interrupting the show. It should probably be disabled from doing that sort of thing while your Sims are on the can (i'll file a bug).
I will mention a really cool system that some of you may have noticed that can sometimes preempt your toilet then book then toilet issue. If your Sim already planned a path to run an interaction, such as eating food, and are heading to sit down on the chair we selected for them, and then you click "Sit" on a different chair or tell them to "Go Here" somewhere, they will cancel their current plan to go to the original chair and include the next interaction in their solution for the interaction they were already running. This manifests in Sims stopping their route and then smoothly resuming to route to the new chair you chose for them without sitting down and standing back up. Neat, right?
The washing dishes issue is one we tried to kill several times, but its hard to figure out player intent sometimes. They generally should go to the nearest sink, but I know our scoring system prefers embedded counter sinks over standalone sinks for washing dishes because we assumed most people would use the standing sinks in bathrooms and the counter sinks in kitchens. If you go against that expectation, then the scoring will work against you, unfortunately. Hopefully we come up with a more elegant solution for this in the future, but in the meantime I will file a bug for you.
I am heading to dinner for a bit, but I will check the thread in an hour or so and answer as many questions as I can. If I don't get to you this time for whatever reason (like I am too busy playing a certain newly-released MMO-FPS on the PS4), I will continue to respond to this thread for the foreseeable future until I have completely exhausted all of your curiousity
@SimGuruMax Do Sims prioritize sinks in the same room they cooked the food in? That seems to be a good solution since there are sinks in nearly all kitchens. If not, as long as it's feasible it seems like it's worth doing.
Hello, SimGuruMax! Glad to see you here explaining these neat animation whys and wherefore. First, I'd like to say that I have NOT seen any foot tapping, and I'm soooo glad!
I have a couple of questions I hope you can answer.
First, why do my Sims seem to squeeze in their own choice of interactions inbetween or before doing the things I've just queued up for them? For example, during a chat, I will queue up for one of my Sims to go cook or clean, or even stay and change chat topics to something else. But as I'm watching the queue, my Sim will suddenly choose to tell a joke or flirt or something on their own, which drops down before my waiting commands will. Why is this? Is it just their personality or mood coming through?
Second, I find that these Sims are very quick "deciders." They will suddenly turn on a dime before the other Sim is even finished speaking to them, to go off, disengage, and do something else, which usually wasn't that pressing (i.e., to put a book away). This looks "rude" to me. Lol! Especially when the other Sim was left hanging. Why don't they hesitate or remain idle until the conversation is completely finished? Similarly, for example, with a painter Sim, the household funds will take a hit and actually subtract money, simply because that Sim suddenly started heading for the easel to paint, but I didn't want them to do that next. I love the free will, but I wish they didn't decide to change courses so quickly.
Also, did you notice that Sims can pick up objects while seated now? This is something we just threw in once we had the core tech working and was only possible because we didn't have registration!
Actually, I did notice. I had a sim sitting at one of the island counters and her housemate was cooking and set down the dish across from her. She reached over the counter and swiped a dish, and I have to tell you my jaw dropped.
I love the multi-tasking, especially with the children. They talk to their parents while they eat; if they're in a conversation, they'll follow that person with a plate of food. This does lead to embarrassing situations, though, when they go into the bathroom.
I don't know enough about animation to ask any intelligent questions, but I do thank you for making yourself available. I'm quite willing to put up with clipping rather than routing difficulties. One thing I like is that when something is actually in the way, the sim who's complaining will have a thought bubble showing the object that has to be moved.
Having all these SimGurus around is fantastic! Thank you so much to all of you for all you've done and are doing!
My question is this (and I'm not sure it falls under your purview, but I'll give it a shot): My sims are constantly walking in on each other in the bathroom, leading to a LOT of embarrassed moods. They do this even though there are two bathrooms and the other is empty. Any ideas? Thanks again!
@SimGuruMax Do Sims prioritize sinks in the same room they cooked the food in? That seems to be a good solution since there are sinks in nearly all kitchens. If not, as long as it's feasible it seems like it's worth doing.
It's not that simple, but the short answer is that they will prefer closer objects to those that are farther away. Keep in mind that this system needs to work for all cases as we tried to make it as general and extensible as possible. The same system tells your Sims where to clean dishes as the one that tells them where to sit to eat, so the tech has a lot of masters and a lot of use-cases. We try not to special-case anything and let our design team get creative with the special-sauce like this (it is possible to add special scoring in some cases).
We will probably address this eventually but we also have a lot of other things to integrate into our system right now and we have to prioritize.
I have an issue where my sims as soon as they feel focused they go straight to the observatory/microscope and do NOTHING else.. their needs go really low if i dont notice till every single need is in red and they still wont leave the 🐸🐸🐸🐸 observatory/microscope.. i think the sims should prioritize needs/motives over emotional states because this is just ridiculous.. i had to sell my microscope and observatory and computers just to keep them from playing/observing ect till they die.
basically i have a room full of +focus stuff for when they are skill building ect.. but everytime they enter that room and get focused they decide that their needs no longer matter and continue to play games or troll the forums ect until they die.. that is if they dont walk to the other side of my house to use the observatory in the same way.. they disregard their needs completely just to use an item because of their emotional state.. even if that emotional state ended a long time ago they still dont stop using the object no matter how low their needs get until i make them stop or they have a need failure.
Having all these SimGurus around is fantastic! Thank you so much to all of you for all you've done and are doing!<br />
<br />
My question is this (and I'm not sure it falls under your purview, but I'll give it a shot): My sims are constantly walking in on each other in the bathroom, leading to a LOT of embarrassed moods. They do this even though there are two bathrooms and the other is empty. Any ideas? Thanks again!
I feel like we missed this one. It's something a lot of people are keen on getting fixed so, yeah. We do have a privacy system which definitely works in some cases.
In line with this discussion, here is how Privacy works:
We drop down a region that covers line-of-sight and kick out all Sims in that area. Once they have successfully exited the privacy region, they can begin the interaction. It sounds like Sims are entering bathrooms to use other objects in the room (they wouldn't pick the toilet autonomously since it is in-use) and not realizing that they would violate a privacy region to do so. I think we need to add an autonomous check to avoid using objects that are within a privacy region - i seem to remember us adding this so it might be broken.
what about sims being obsessed with emotional items like observatory and microscope and not getting off them despite needs being very low. it wouldnt be a problem if they didnt use them till dangerously low need levels (needs in red level) they seem to ignore their needs when using these items and its a problem obviously
what about sims being obsessed with emotional items like observatory and microscope and not getting off them despite needs being very low. it wouldnt be a problem if they didnt use them till dangerously low need levels (needs in red level) they seem to ignore their needs when using these items and its a problem obviously
Hadn't heard about this. I'll make sure we have an entry for this one if we don't already.
You could help me with more info, though: Does your Sim not go into motive distress and push a solve interaction? That is how its supposed to work (unless they decide to solve it earlier on their own due to a normal full Autonomy ping). This happens when its still yellow, I believe. You know they are in distress because the Sim will visibly complain about it, which triggers an Autonomy ping to solve for the motive.
I don't have a question - but i would like to give you a big thank you for automatically having sims wash their hands after using the toilet and not just neat sims. I can name at least 4 moms who were so thrilled over this because they play the game with their kids and even the kids noted the fact the sims now have to wash their hands just like they are told to do. So a big Yay from me for that.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
In dreams - I LIVE!
In REALITY, I simply exist.....
Comments
Oh. Okay. I'm glad that you guys did this. It makes the sims really realistic which is something I thoroughly do enjoy. I think that's all the questions I have for now. (I know it isn't but I can't think of any right now...) But thanks for answering!
Thanks! Whenever I reach a milestone on one of the likes, agrees, or lols, I always make a new one. Some of them slightly more or less disturbing (or in your case, funny) than the last. I'm still coming up with ideas for when I reach 1500.
Also my Sims do not go to the closest sink to wash dishes, instead they will go to the bathroom instead of the kitchen or will go up stairs just to wash them even if there are no dirty dishes up there.
Thank you
@simgurumax
Yes that makes sense, thank you.
It helps me understand why these type of things are changed because the way you've explained makes it sound more beneficial for user experience.
I will be completely honest though and tell you that there are people out there like me that pay a considerable amount of attention to detail and small things like this come across as shoddy and half-rear ended (if you know what I mean
However I will point out that I'm seeing A lot more attention to detail in TS4 compared to TS3 so, well done.
Unfortunately, it sounds like you are running into some bugs.
Quick summary of how multitasking / the queue works: The temporal order of actions in the queue is respected. If something is incompatible with your current interaction state, we do not let other interactions leap-frog it. If the next interaction is incompatible, the rest of the queue blocks behind it until the active interaction making it incompatible is no longer protected (interactions have conditions - like an amount of motive gain or a timer - after which they can be canceled by other interactions). Now that it can run, it will enter the active state and cancel the old, incompatible interaction.
The Multitasking system sometimes does let Sims take a "break" as long as the interaction they are running doesn't want to stick around and permanently require them to be absent from their other activities. This is what allows Sims to go grab a plate of food while watching TV and then go back to the sofa without interrupting the show. It should probably be disabled from doing that sort of thing while your Sims are on the can (i'll file a bug).
I will mention a really cool system that some of you may have noticed that can sometimes preempt your toilet then book then toilet issue. If your Sim already planned a path to run an interaction, such as eating food, and are heading to sit down on the chair we selected for them, and then you click "Sit" on a different chair or tell them to "Go Here" somewhere, they will cancel their current plan to go to the original chair and include the next interaction in their solution for the interaction they were already running. This manifests in Sims stopping their route and then smoothly resuming to route to the new chair you chose for them without sitting down and standing back up. Neat, right?
The washing dishes issue is one we tried to kill several times, but its hard to figure out player intent sometimes. They generally should go to the nearest sink, but I know our scoring system prefers embedded counter sinks over standalone sinks for washing dishes because we assumed most people would use the standing sinks in bathrooms and the counter sinks in kitchens. If you go against that expectation, then the scoring will work against you, unfortunately. Hopefully we come up with a more elegant solution for this in the future, but in the meantime I will file a bug for you.
Thanks for the feedback!
I will make sure this gets entered into our bug database.
Okay. Thanks!
Thank you!
I have a couple of questions I hope you can answer.
First, why do my Sims seem to squeeze in their own choice of interactions inbetween or before doing the things I've just queued up for them? For example, during a chat, I will queue up for one of my Sims to go cook or clean, or even stay and change chat topics to something else. But as I'm watching the queue, my Sim will suddenly choose to tell a joke or flirt or something on their own, which drops down before my waiting commands will. Why is this? Is it just their personality or mood coming through?
Second, I find that these Sims are very quick "deciders." They will suddenly turn on a dime before the other Sim is even finished speaking to them, to go off, disengage, and do something else, which usually wasn't that pressing (i.e., to put a book away). This looks "rude" to me. Lol! Especially when the other Sim was left hanging. Why don't they hesitate or remain idle until the conversation is completely finished? Similarly, for example, with a painter Sim, the household funds will take a hit and actually subtract money, simply because that Sim suddenly started heading for the easel to paint, but I didn't want them to do that next. I love the free will, but I wish they didn't decide to change courses so quickly.
Actually, I did notice. I had a sim sitting at one of the island counters and her housemate was cooking and set down the dish across from her. She reached over the counter and swiped a dish, and I have to tell you my jaw dropped.
I love the multi-tasking, especially with the children. They talk to their parents while they eat; if they're in a conversation, they'll follow that person with a plate of food. This does lead to embarrassing situations, though, when they go into the bathroom.
I don't know enough about animation to ask any intelligent questions, but I do thank you for making yourself available. I'm quite willing to put up with clipping rather than routing difficulties. One thing I like is that when something is actually in the way, the sim who's complaining will have a thought bubble showing the object that has to be moved.
My question is this (and I'm not sure it falls under your purview, but I'll give it a shot): My sims are constantly walking in on each other in the bathroom, leading to a LOT of embarrassed moods. They do this even though there are two bathrooms and the other is empty. Any ideas? Thanks again!
It's not that simple, but the short answer is that they will prefer closer objects to those that are farther away. Keep in mind that this system needs to work for all cases as we tried to make it as general and extensible as possible. The same system tells your Sims where to clean dishes as the one that tells them where to sit to eat, so the tech has a lot of masters and a lot of use-cases. We try not to special-case anything and let our design team get creative with the special-sauce like this (it is possible to add special scoring in some cases).
We will probably address this eventually but we also have a lot of other things to integrate into our system right now and we have to prioritize.
I feel like we missed this one. It's something a lot of people are keen on getting fixed so, yeah. We do have a privacy system which definitely works in some cases.
In line with this discussion, here is how Privacy works:
We drop down a region that covers line-of-sight and kick out all Sims in that area. Once they have successfully exited the privacy region, they can begin the interaction. It sounds like Sims are entering bathrooms to use other objects in the room (they wouldn't pick the toilet autonomously since it is in-use) and not realizing that they would violate a privacy region to do so. I think we need to add an autonomous check to avoid using objects that are within a privacy region - i seem to remember us adding this so it might be broken.
I will look into this.
Hi! I don't know too much about it honestly, but SimGuruModSquad does: http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/779844/maxis-documentation#latest
Hadn't heard about this. I'll make sure we have an entry for this one if we don't already.
You could help me with more info, though: Does your Sim not go into motive distress and push a solve interaction? That is how its supposed to work (unless they decide to solve it earlier on their own due to a normal full Autonomy ping). This happens when its still yellow, I believe. You know they are in distress because the Sim will visibly complain about it, which triggers an Autonomy ping to solve for the motive.
A heartfelt 'THANK YOU' for that!
zaynehunter.blogspot.com/
notthebread.blogspot.com/
slicesofsimlife.blogspot.com/
https://zaynehunterkleptomaniac.blogspot.com/
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
In dreams - I LIVE!
In REALITY, I simply exist.....