Has anyone ever considered that it could be a marketing strategy for more sales? I'm sure they had a list of so many things they could do for the base game, and also have stuff saved for future expansions. How else are they going to make money. Not saying I agree with it, but it makes sense.
Personally, I think that this is very likely. I think that ever since TS1 sold as many expansions as it did, the series has always been developed with this model in mind. Plan a base game and then try to figure out what kind of content should be worked on for the base, and what should be saved for expansions. They've pretty much admitted that they only build a "foundation" to start with. I think that the pool thing has become such an issue because it wasn't the sort of content that was ever saved for an expansion before. Pools were always basic content.
really i dont see your guys idea that they have fountains why not pools. there is still much more that has to be put into a pool besides just water....
Like what, the chlorine? We didn't have pool objects in the base game, just a pool you could jump into. It seems they did half the "difficult" work already by putting fountains in.
there are many animations and other tech stuff they have to do just to get it to look right then tweak it to get it to the caliber of the other movements in the game....on top of that they will want to add new stuff and/or animations. its not just we have water in a hole in the ground we are good
Since they added literally a 🐸🐸🐸🐸-ton of different animations for just walking around, if they had prioritised swimming over the variety of mincing our sims are now capable of, then with the fountains sorted so the base for pools is already in, it might have been feasible that they could have had pools done on time. Unless...oh god...emotive swimming????
I can understand they just didn't have time or it would take longer than adding in other, easier features. But "too complicated"? Pshaw.
They would never ever admit that they hadn't have the time. I still suspect this is however the number one reason for a lot of missing features and cutting corners everywhere. They just can't say it to the press.
@Candacis ~ Thanks! It's my former simself as a toddler as my protest to toddlers and pools not being included. Yeah, she's technically playing in the ocean instead of a pool, but they didn't give us toddler pools. Glad you like her, she looks super happy.
About the subject at hand, if the whole leaving out pools was only to make money on them later - at least I understand that. I refuse to believe any other excuse of how 'difficult' it was, or how time consuming, considering some of the absolutely trivial stuff we've got now. I simply do not believe it was a time issue, but a way to make more money.
I don't believe it. They didn't give their programmers enough time implement them; so they tell us they can't dig down in the ground with the new shiny engine? Bah! To me this statement shouts that TS1, TS2 & TS3 had a far superior engine if the fantastical new engine can't even let you dig a hole in the ground and use shader layers in the year 2014. Why would you regress on engine functionality? Cost? You guys aren't Kickstarters or Greenlight developers who have minimal funds and resources. You're a multimillion dollar corporation who has absorbed smaller game companies over the years screwing them up with the mega-greed initiative, leaving consumers without a real free market choice. Come on ea, stop with the lame excuses already. Y'all are big boys and girls who get paid to do this. Either build an engine to support the most basic functionality of the Sims or buy one. This should have been a no-brainer.
The problem is, that they first worked for years on an Sims Online game where you could meet other players. An Online game needs very different programming than a Single Player Game and they had planned a very different gameplay (only adult sims etc.). Then, very late, someone decided to scratch the Online Game and instead make it a Single Player Offline game. Most assume this decision accured around the Sim City fiasco.
When was the Sim City fiasco? March 2013. So, how much time did they had to change the entire game and add the missing life stages? One year and about five month.
If this is really how it went down, I'm not surprised that so much is missing.
The problem is, that they first worked for years on an Sims Online game where you could meet other players. An Online game needs very different programming than a Single Player Game and they had planned a very different gameplay (only adult sims etc.). Then, very late, someone decided to scratch the Online Game and instead make it a Single Player Offline game. Most assume this decision accured around the Sim City fiasco.
When was the Sim City fiasco? March 2013. So, how much time did they had to change the entire game and add the missing life stages? One year and about five month.
If this is really how it went down, I'm not surprised that so much is missing.
You also have to think about how easy it is to kill sims with pools. I think that the content was removed because it was supposed to be online and EA didn't want us easily murdering each other. It wouldn't bother me that they decided to switch from the online game they were making to the current game if they would just stop lying about it.
They've got a start with it on the textures and animation of the water, likely some splashing animations and such for fish but the rest does get complicated.
The engine needs to know it's a water zone (or even be capable of that distinction) that Sims can swim/play in and animations have to be made for Sims to interact in it so they swim instead of walk. A tool needs to be programmed into Build mode to make a pool, and valid locations also need to be programmed. Objects would need to be made along with animations for using that object such as a ladder to get in and out. Sounds have to be recorded so you aren't met with silence when your Sim is splashing around. Other interactions normally available outside of a pool need to be disabled, along with any building tools that may bork the pool's ability to be used (although it would be awesome if we could build walkways and stuff over pools without that happening). Interactions available in a pool such as games have to be disallowed when not in a pool as well. Then they need to test their work to see if what they did works like it should. There are likely other considerations that have to be accounted for.
I think Graham is pretty accurate in saying that it isn't easy. He didn't say it couldn't be done, but there is a lot of development required.
I think part of it is that they sales from expansions and store content, but it's not like there is a lack of content they could put in it. But I'm betting this is probably a component of it.
Other than that they did get a whole new engine. Building is different. Sims are different. Routing is different. etc. So it's not just like TS1 where it's 'create an object and toss in an animation'. Pools, at least if they are like TS3 pools, would be a below-ground "room". You can dig a hole for a fountain, but digging a hole for a sim to go in, creating the new clothing class, conditions for changing clothes, any emotional impact those clothes would have, animations for getting in the pool, swimming, pool interactions, pool objects, etc. and all for something more aesthetic than anything.
Really want a pool? Make a giant backyard fountain and have your sims hang out by it in their underwear.
At least we can be pretty sure they will add them eventually as its an obvious thing to add to a seasons themed EP, its annoying that they didnt include it in the base game though! If they wanted to include pools in the base game i'm sure they could have made time.
I'm almost 100% convinced we will get pools and toddlers back. It's just a matter of time, and it depends on HOW they are going to bring them back.
I bet it won't be in a free patch. We're still dealing with EA, and EA knows people are interested in pools and toddlers, so they most likely put them into an Expansion Pack or put them in the Store as 'Premium Gameplay Packs'.
It would be nice, if they would offer Pools free as a sign of goodwill, but this is EA we are talking about.
But a gesture like this might convince me to then go and buy the toddler expansion. If I ever buy the game.
I'm almost 100% convinced we will get pools and toddlers back. It's just a matter of time, and it depends on HOW they are going to bring them back.
I bet it won't be in a free patch. We're still dealing with EA, and EA knows people are interested in pools and toddlers, so they most likely put them into an Expansion Pack or put them in the Store as 'Premium Gameplay Packs'.
It's true that they will probably introduce them in an expansion, but there is the possibility that they will patch them into the base game anyway for those that don't get the expansion, kind of like they did with the laundry machines in TS3.
Fine they say they cant create in ground pools yet what about above ground pools or a hot tub I think the real issue is they want to sell a stuff pack with these features.
Coming soon to a store near you The Sims Pools and Hot Tubs.
Sims 4 went from "You Rule" to "One of the stories we want you to tell"
It's true that they will probably introduce them in an expansion, but there is the possibility that they will patch them into the base game anyway for those that don't get the expansion, kind of like they did with the laundry machines in TS3.
Maybe, but then just the basic features of those. I still doubt that we will ever get toddlers for free. Wouldn't it be nice if they would reveal on gamescom what plans they have regarding pools and toddlers? One can dream...
But I think they are too scared about their sales.
They've got a start with it on the textures and animation of the water, likely some splashing animations and such for fish but the rest does get complicated.
The engine needs to know it's a water zone (or even be capable of that distinction) that Sims can swim/play in and animations have to be made for Sims to interact in it so they swim instead of walk. A tool needs to be programmed into Build mode to make a pool, and valid locations also need to be programmed. Objects would need to be made along with animations for using that object such as a ladder to get in and out. Sounds have to be recorded so you aren't met with silence when your Sim is splashing around. Other interactions normally available outside of a pool need to be disabled, along with any building tools that may bork the pool's ability to be used (although it would be awesome if we could build walkways and stuff over pools without that happening). Interactions available in a pool such as games have to be disallowed when not in a pool as well. Then they need to test their work to see if what they did works like it should. There are likely other considerations that have to be accounted for.
I think Graham is pretty accurate in saying that it isn't easy. He didn't say it couldn't be done, but there is a lot of development required.
I understand. But I'm wondering what exactly has made it so hard to do on the Sims 4 engine, that could be done in all the previous 3 games? Why all of a sudden we get to the fourth version, with better technology, and everything is too hard to do? IBM created a new chip designed to work like the brain. Interesting read. We have these kind of innovations today and you're even helping them with excuses. Sorry but a AAA game, which demands AAA game prices; should in turn have AAA programers on board. If it's too hard for the current devs, fire them and hire ones who will attempt to figure it out. Or simply put, maybe they are not spending the money needed for this particular franchise which may explain why a new sims game always looks and feels 2-3 years behind technology.
Not jumping on you TheGreenLion. As they (ea) says: I'm a passionate simmer (but I know what they really want to call me-lol).
I don't think they have as much development budget as they should get. Sims is only a big moneymaker for EA, because it is, in comparison, not so expensive to develop as other AAA title. Sims earns a lot of the money that they then use for other titles.
You think the cartoony look was a design choice? It was money. Developing more cartoonic looking sims is much cheaper than taking the other route and trying for more realism than TS3. I like the art choice, but I have no illusion about the reasoning behind it.
If we can't have below ground pools why not above ground pools? That way ground hogs can come up to them chew and rip a hole in them and flood the entire yard! Whee
They really need to fire the EAxis PR department because they're doing an absolutely terrible job!
"It's too complicated" really? You make "smarter sims" but making pools (something that's been done past 3 games) is too complicated?
A better cover up is, "Were planning on making pools much much better than the previous iterations, with a lot more interactions and animations, please give us time."
At least that gives the players something to look forward too and does not paint the entire development team as incompetent
They've got a start with it on the textures and animation of the water, likely some splashing animations and such for fish but the rest does get complicated.
The engine needs to know it's a water zone (or even be capable of that distinction) that Sims can swim/play in and animations have to be made for Sims to interact in it so they swim instead of walk. A tool needs to be programmed into Build mode to make a pool, and valid locations also need to be programmed. Objects would need to be made along with animations for using that object such as a ladder to get in and out. Sounds have to be recorded so you aren't met with silence when your Sim is splashing around. Other interactions normally available outside of a pool need to be disabled, along with any building tools that may bork the pool's ability to be used (although it would be awesome if we could build walkways and stuff over pools without that happening). Interactions available in a pool such as games have to be disallowed when not in a pool as well. Then they need to test their work to see if what they did works like it should. There are likely other considerations that have to be accounted for.
I think Graham is pretty accurate in saying that it isn't easy. He didn't say it couldn't be done, but there is a lot of development required.
I understand. But I'm wondering what exactly has made it so hard to do on the Sims 4 engine, that could be done in all the previous 3 games? Why all of a sudden we get to the fourth version, with better technology, and everything is too hard to do? IBM created a new chip designed to work like the brain. Interesting read. We have these kind of innovations today and you're even helping them with excuses. Sorry but a AAA game title, which demands AAA game prices; should in turn have AAA programers on board. If it's too hard for the current devs, fire them and hire ones who will attempt to figure it out. Or simply put, maybe they are not spending the money needed for this particular franchise which may explain why a new sims game always looks and feels 2-3 years behind technology.
Not jumping on you TheGreenLion. As they (ea) says: I'm a passionate simmer (but I know what they really want to call me-lol).
That is definitely a million dollar question (or more for those who aren't buying based on the cuts, billion maybe? lol) that we would all love to know for sure. I don't think even much of the Sims team knows, just that it isn't on their list of stuff to produce. I agree though, the quality does not match what we see around us even within their own collection of studios. I think Rockstar would be an excellent choice to make a competitor, not sure how they do the free content for GTA V but I love them for it!
I didn't find anything wrong with your post, those are just my thoughts on why Graham said it isn't easy. But, I'm not making an excuse for them to not do it. I think they should because the effort would have paid off. They have to know they're shipping an incomplete product on the 2nd and it's not going to sell as well as it could have. Thanks for the link to that article by the way, think I'll go check it out. Sounds scary and cool at the same time.
Comments
Personally, I think that this is very likely. I think that ever since TS1 sold as many expansions as it did, the series has always been developed with this model in mind. Plan a base game and then try to figure out what kind of content should be worked on for the base, and what should be saved for expansions. They've pretty much admitted that they only build a "foundation" to start with. I think that the pool thing has become such an issue because it wasn't the sort of content that was ever saved for an expansion before. Pools were always basic content.
Since they added literally a 🐸🐸🐸🐸-ton of different animations for just walking around, if they had prioritised swimming over the variety of mincing our sims are now capable of, then with the fountains sorted so the base for pools is already in, it might have been feasible that they could have had pools done on time. Unless...oh god...emotive swimming????
They would never ever admit that they hadn't have the time. I still suspect this is however the number one reason for a lot of missing features and cutting corners everywhere. They just can't say it to the press.
Of course. They're making a well-rounded game.
About the subject at hand, if the whole leaving out pools was only to make money on them later - at least I understand that. I refuse to believe any other excuse of how 'difficult' it was, or how time consuming, considering some of the absolutely trivial stuff we've got now. I simply do not believe it was a time issue, but a way to make more money.
When was the Sim City fiasco? March 2013. So, how much time did they had to change the entire game and add the missing life stages? One year and about five month.
If this is really how it went down, I'm not surprised that so much is missing.
You also have to think about how easy it is to kill sims with pools. I think that the content was removed because it was supposed to be online and EA didn't want us easily murdering each other. It wouldn't bother me that they decided to switch from the online game they were making to the current game if they would just stop lying about it.
The engine needs to know it's a water zone (or even be capable of that distinction) that Sims can swim/play in and animations have to be made for Sims to interact in it so they swim instead of walk. A tool needs to be programmed into Build mode to make a pool, and valid locations also need to be programmed. Objects would need to be made along with animations for using that object such as a ladder to get in and out. Sounds have to be recorded so you aren't met with silence when your Sim is splashing around. Other interactions normally available outside of a pool need to be disabled, along with any building tools that may bork the pool's ability to be used (although it would be awesome if we could build walkways and stuff over pools without that happening). Interactions available in a pool such as games have to be disallowed when not in a pool as well. Then they need to test their work to see if what they did works like it should. There are likely other considerations that have to be accounted for.
I think Graham is pretty accurate in saying that it isn't easy. He didn't say it couldn't be done, but there is a lot of development required.
Other than that they did get a whole new engine. Building is different. Sims are different. Routing is different. etc. So it's not just like TS1 where it's 'create an object and toss in an animation'. Pools, at least if they are like TS3 pools, would be a below-ground "room". You can dig a hole for a fountain, but digging a hole for a sim to go in, creating the new clothing class, conditions for changing clothes, any emotional impact those clothes would have, animations for getting in the pool, swimming, pool interactions, pool objects, etc. and all for something more aesthetic than anything.
Really want a pool? Make a giant backyard fountain and have your sims hang out by it in their underwear.
Totally agree and they can't seem to keep up with the one's they keep telling.
I bet it won't be in a free patch. We're still dealing with EA, and EA knows people are interested in pools and toddlers, so they most likely put them into an Expansion Pack or put them in the Store as 'Premium Gameplay Packs'.
But a gesture like this might convince me to then go and buy the toddler expansion. If I ever buy the game.
It's true that they will probably introduce them in an expansion, but there is the possibility that they will patch them into the base game anyway for those that don't get the expansion, kind of like they did with the laundry machines in TS3.
Coming soon to a store near you The Sims Pools and Hot Tubs.
Maybe, but then just the basic features of those. I still doubt that we will ever get toddlers for free. Wouldn't it be nice if they would reveal on gamescom what plans they have regarding pools and toddlers? One can dream...
But I think they are too scared about their sales.
I understand. But I'm wondering what exactly has made it so hard to do on the Sims 4 engine, that could be done in all the previous 3 games? Why all of a sudden we get to the fourth version, with better technology, and everything is too hard to do? IBM created a new chip designed to work like the brain. Interesting read. We have these kind of innovations today and you're even helping them with excuses. Sorry but a AAA game, which demands AAA game prices; should in turn have AAA programers on board. If it's too hard for the current devs, fire them and hire ones who will attempt to figure it out. Or simply put, maybe they are not spending the money needed for this particular franchise which may explain why a new sims game always looks and feels 2-3 years behind technology.
Not jumping on you TheGreenLion. As they (ea) says: I'm a passionate simmer (but I know what they really want to call me-lol).
"Sorry but a AAA game plum, which demands AAA game prices. . ."
Edit: got it, t.itle
You think the cartoony look was a design choice? It was money. Developing more cartoonic looking sims is much cheaper than taking the other route and trying for more realism than TS3. I like the art choice, but I have no illusion about the reasoning behind it.
"It's too complicated" really? You make "smarter sims" but making pools (something that's been done past 3 games) is too complicated?
A better cover up is, "Were planning on making pools much much better than the previous iterations, with a lot more interactions and animations, please give us time."
At least that gives the players something to look forward too and does not paint the entire development team as incompetent
That is definitely a million dollar question (or more for those who aren't buying based on the cuts, billion maybe? lol) that we would all love to know for sure. I don't think even much of the Sims team knows, just that it isn't on their list of stuff to produce. I agree though, the quality does not match what we see around us even within their own collection of studios. I think Rockstar would be an excellent choice to make a competitor, not sure how they do the free content for GTA V but I love them for it!
I didn't find anything wrong with your post, those are just my thoughts on why Graham said it isn't easy. But, I'm not making an excuse for them to not do it. I think they should because the effort would have paid off. They have to know they're shipping an incomplete product on the 2nd and it's not going to sell as well as it could have. Thanks for the link to that article by the way, think I'll go check it out. Sounds scary and cool at the same time.