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How can we fix the emotion system?
Zeldaboy180
Posts: 5,997 Member
We see it all the time, complaints about the emotion system, and rightfully so. Emotions as they stand are a mess. A great idea with not so great implementation. But how can we fix them? Saying "emotions are bad" over and over again will do nothing.
I started having some ideas on how to fix them and figured I'd just make a thread for others to share their ideas. This thread is for constructive criticism. If you have an issue with something, offer points on how to improve it. Stating "Blank stinks" and offering no feedback helps nothing.
Let's start with the basis. Positive emotions currently drown out negative emotions and this is due to a couple reasons.
So how can we improve this aspect?
This will balance out the positive vs negative emotions a bit and prevent them from always being drowned out with positive moodlets, but there's still more we can do. Something that the emotions system fails to take into consideration is that in real life, new experiences typically outweigh old ones. Let me give an example so I can make myself clear.
You've been working hard at work lately, and your boss finally recognizes you and you earn that promotion you've always wanted. You're happy, until you come home to your wife and find her in the arms of another man. Despite being happy about the promotion, this new experience quickly sours your mood.
A good example of this being done poorly can be found all over in the Snowy Escape Live stream. When Graham's sims are hiking up the mountain, they are happy because they are with family and having a fun journey, which makes sense. But upon being attacked by bats, Grahams sims are still happy and raring to go because the positive outweigh the negative. Same with the sim in the hot spring who's relaxing happily, until he sees his enemy and gains a small angry buff, and continues to relax.
It gives off the impressions that sims do not react to new scenarios because they are too busy being occupied with getting a massage 4 hours ago, or smelling some candles etc.
So how can we fix this?
In my opinion, we should change how the moodlets work. As it stands right now, you may get a +5 positive moodlet that lasts 5 hours for getting engaged. (Just an example.) After the 5 hours the moodlet completely fades. Perhaps having it gradually fade over the course of 5 hours would help balance it a bit. So after the first hour, the +5 becomes a +4, the second hour it goes down to +3.
Basically, new moodlets start off strong so they can have priority, but fade over time leaving room for new ones to take their place.
Emotions also need to better affect Autonomy, with traits being kept in mind. (Traits also need an overhaul, but that's a thread someone else can make.) A hotheaded sim and a friendly should not react to their emotions the same way. A hot headed sim while angry may autonomously start fights, insults etc, but a friendly sim may process anger differently and only result to minor insults or cursing under their breath.
That's all the ideas I can think of for now, let me know what you think of mine, and any ideas you can think of!
I started having some ideas on how to fix them and figured I'd just make a thread for others to share their ideas. This thread is for constructive criticism. If you have an issue with something, offer points on how to improve it. Stating "Blank stinks" and offering no feedback helps nothing.
Let's start with the basis. Positive emotions currently drown out negative emotions and this is due to a couple reasons.
- Having a nicely decorated lot will give your sims positive moodlets by default
- Positive moodlets stack off of each other. Happy moodlets always boost any other positive moodlets.
- Positive moodlets tend to be a lot stronger than negative ones.
So how can we improve this aspect?
- Remove the happy moodlet for nicely decorated lots, or severely nerf it. Have the moodlet appear only when new things are bought that have high environment scores. I may be really happy about a new TV I bought, but eventually that happiness will fade and become mundane for me.
- Allow negative moodlets to stack. There is a mod by Zerbu that makes uncomfortable moodlets boost negative emotions, just as happy boosts positive. So if your sim is hungry and has an uncomfortable moodlet, that moodlet will boost negative emotions like anger, sadness, etc.
- Increase the strength of negative moodlets in general. Humans naturally feel negative emotions stronger than positive ones.
This will balance out the positive vs negative emotions a bit and prevent them from always being drowned out with positive moodlets, but there's still more we can do. Something that the emotions system fails to take into consideration is that in real life, new experiences typically outweigh old ones. Let me give an example so I can make myself clear.
You've been working hard at work lately, and your boss finally recognizes you and you earn that promotion you've always wanted. You're happy, until you come home to your wife and find her in the arms of another man. Despite being happy about the promotion, this new experience quickly sours your mood.
A good example of this being done poorly can be found all over in the Snowy Escape Live stream. When Graham's sims are hiking up the mountain, they are happy because they are with family and having a fun journey, which makes sense. But upon being attacked by bats, Grahams sims are still happy and raring to go because the positive outweigh the negative. Same with the sim in the hot spring who's relaxing happily, until he sees his enemy and gains a small angry buff, and continues to relax.
It gives off the impressions that sims do not react to new scenarios because they are too busy being occupied with getting a massage 4 hours ago, or smelling some candles etc.
So how can we fix this?
In my opinion, we should change how the moodlets work. As it stands right now, you may get a +5 positive moodlet that lasts 5 hours for getting engaged. (Just an example.) After the 5 hours the moodlet completely fades. Perhaps having it gradually fade over the course of 5 hours would help balance it a bit. So after the first hour, the +5 becomes a +4, the second hour it goes down to +3.
Basically, new moodlets start off strong so they can have priority, but fade over time leaving room for new ones to take their place.
Emotions also need to better affect Autonomy, with traits being kept in mind. (Traits also need an overhaul, but that's a thread someone else can make.) A hotheaded sim and a friendly should not react to their emotions the same way. A hot headed sim while angry may autonomously start fights, insults etc, but a friendly sim may process anger differently and only result to minor insults or cursing under their breath.
That's all the ideas I can think of for now, let me know what you think of mine, and any ideas you can think of!
Post edited by EA_Joz on
10
Comments
Not an ultimate solution but it will help. Emotions have felt more balanced since Eco Lifestyle too and patch with that in which the environment is more balanced with the walls and floors.
They really need to implement this system in the game too since it helps balance the emotions out a lot.
https://zerbu.tumblr.com/post/168552239715/the-sims-4-mod-uncomfortable-boosts-negative
We need more negative traits, more trait slots, and more negative effects with objects too. Having aspiration failures would be nice to bring more consequences into the game. I would love to have preferences for loves and friendships and jobs and interests too.
Angry good Sims will only yell at someone that they have bad relationship with or angry emotions only make them mumble.
Also this ^^ Traits should definitely play a role in how emotions work.
I think the Sentiments are going to mimic an emotion that decreases with time (which is also a great suggestion). For example, a sim catches their spouse cheating and they get a +3 angry moodlet for a certain amount of hours. But the Sentiment brings a +1 angry moodlet for what sounds like could be weeks.
I can see how the “festering grudge” +1 angry moodlet didn’t affect the sim in the livestream much while he was in the hot springs, but if they ran into each other under different conditions it could become the dominant emotion. I can see the argument that it should be stronger, but it’s still an improvement. I wish autonomy had been on so we could see how these things will really play out.
A youtuber name Pleasant Sims has made videos about playing without mods and had some surprising revelations about emotions. I think viewers who play a vanilla game complained and challenged her at some point to remove her mods. I don't know the whole story. I recently found her. Anyway she was both impressed and disappointed by some aspects but did see an improvement. She usually compares TS2, TS3 to TS4. She is very opinionated and points out what she needs to be improved. She also gives credit when needed. I mostly find myself in disagreement with her and that's ok. I am open to other points of view.
I do not know how to fix emotions and I admit that I often click them away for convivence. I only strive to get an emotion for skill boost or to enable a certain interaction associated with an emotion. IMO I would not be hurt if emotions completely went away. I said it many times. I just want to play the game. I don't want the game to play me. Emotions add to the game and they also restrict what my Sims can do depending on the emotion. Anything that limits me playing the game my way may has well go. For the most part MCCC allows me the freedom to play the game the way I want to play. Even if they improve emotions I am still cheating them away when they limit what my Sims can do when I want them to do it.
I have to jump in here. The stacking of negative moodlets could put us right back to those emotional deaths that players were yelling about came all too easily. We can't have it both ways, I'm afraid. It's either make them stronger, or (and maybe this is a possible solution) make the percentage of emotional deaths smaller? I don't know how they're configured at the moment, which is why I hesitate. I believe that's one thing I really loved about Slice of Life. Besides calculating our Sims personalities based on their traits, once your Sim is given a specific personality type, it changes their behavior.
I think we need to wait and see (since November 13th is nearing) just what this new upgrade: Lifestyles and Sentiments really means.
http://www.getfreeebooks.com/star-trek-original-series-fan-fiction-trilogy/
Other improvements I'd love to see:
Default mood is not Fine and not happy, with happy being difficult to get and it not only is the best mood in game but it also can me set to give lifetime happiness point continuously/
Moods now last and stick, meaning that it is VERY hard to change the mood by simply walking in another room.
Mood is now a resource, so when a sum is doing something related to the mood they are actually SPENDING It.
Mood can have and after effect, meaning that Sim that has been angry may STILL be angry.
Emotional trait moodlets now stay for much longer hours.
Uncomfortable now boosts negative moods.
Tryst me - this mod works VERY well in game, so I don't see why not just make this system be a feature in game. I strongly recommend anyone to try this mod.
In relation to emotions, traits should determine how they experience these emotions and influence their actions in that state.
If angry a mean Sim could feel better after winning a fight. A neat sim could go rage clean the house to feel better. A geek could unwind by playing violent video games. A jealous sim could feel better after seeing someone they hate suffer.
If energized a lazy sim could act like a normal sim, normally they should not.
When flirty, traits should determine how sims flirt. Not all traits, but some should affect it. Active sims would want to exercise together and might want to use their athletic skill to show off. A genius sim could want to impress with their intellect.
I guess that sims react to all emotions the same might be at the core of why all sims seem to be the exact same person in sims 4.
Personally I find the quick flick between emotions can be rather erratic, working through the time (hours/days etc) would help the emotions become more stable.
Finding a emotion that’s generic for a particular sim (depending on traits) instead of the generic happy trait... why are sims always happy? My gloomy sim should be more gloomy then happy. An erratic sim should have unstable emotions this is where an overhaul needs to begin.
And those emotions should also hold a memory (not every single one) the important times in a sims life should sometimes affect a sims emotions. A death for instance shouldn’t effect all sims for 2 days but a sims that has a great relationship with the sims should have a stronger emotion then another sim, reflecting on that moment one day should effect the emotions of that sim when remembering them. Same can be said for birth, birthdays, affairs etc.
And finally, we need some sort of attraction system, better then sims 3. So our sims can make their own choices (or with player influence) on what they like an dislike, and by attraction I don’t just mean relationships, for it to also include elements of favourite things enjoyments. With this the sims can draw on certain emotions if they are having a date with a sim they think is attractive or eating a meal they love or wearing their favourite colour.
There is so many great mods that try to make this system better. I wish the sims team would give them a go and take influence from them.
I hope the new system that’s coming will help. I know game changers have reviewed the pack and given thoughts but until we each give it a go ourselves it’s hard to really know what they have done to make this system better.
Thanks for starting this thread, I agree the emotions really need to get fixed, and all your suggestions are really great ideas.
I don’t like that you can get rid of all negative moodlets with repetitive actions, for example: an sim that experienced a divorce can chose the action cry in bed multiple times in a row to lower the time limit of the moodlet. You can then completely get rid of the moodlet even if the break up just did ocur a couple of hours ago… that makes no sense.
Some experiences need to give your sim a Fundamental moodlet (=moodlet that will stay for a couple of days and that you can’t remove) that have a bigger negative impact on your sim (=can’t get drowned out just by eating a perfectly cooked meal).
Example: A sim goes through a break up and get the negative Fundamental moodlet Divorced (-20 sad) that will stay for 3 days. You can try to drown out the negative effect by letting your sim gain positive moodlets, but your sim will always go back to the sad emotion when these disappears (from the Fundamental moodlet).
Here are some other suggestions that hopefully can improve the emotion system:
MEMORY SYSTEM
Sims are now going to save and remember their memories and will at random get a moodlet with the memory
(eg. ”Simsis was born”) that have the same moodlet as back then (e.g. “+1 happy”). This moodlet will give them the interaction to "share memory" with other sims that are included in the memory (e.g. parents can share a memory of a child birth). This will make the other sim remember = trigger their memory moodlet.
Similar to sims 2 memory system with symbols. Memories are highlighted with 1 of 5 different colours depending how the memory effected the sim at the given moment:
*Green X = Positive memory (positive sentiments / events)
*Red X = Negative memory (negative sentiments / events)
*Yellow X = Redefined memory (earlier positive memory that has changed temporarily after gaining a negative sentiment)
*Orange with a “!”-symbol!X = a Struggle LIFE STRUGGLES PACK
*Golden with a “!”-symbol!X = a treated Struggle LIFE STRUGGLES PACK
LIFE STRUGGLES PACK
Memories with Treated Struggles (golden) will be remembered with the moodlets: ”I did it!” (+2 confident and increased “Self-esteem points”) OR/AND “Times have been rough” = (+2 sad and increased “Meaningfulness points”).
*Focus on bigger events instead: had a baby (name of the baby), got married / divorced, become best friend with (sim_name), got scholarship (and which), got a job / retired (which career), had a negative / positive / neutral childhood LIFE STRUGGLES PACK, had a million simoleans, become boyfriend/girlfriend, etc...
Redefined memories
When Redefined memories are remembered it will cause moodlets like: “I didn´t know what was coming back then…” / "Arggh!" and give a tense / angry / sad / anxious buff. It just the sim with the negative sentiment (e.g. “hurt”) that gets effected, the other sim (that caused the sentiment) can still have positive memories.
When the negative sentiment disappear the Redefined memories will go back to positive memories again. If the sentiment is a Lifelong sentiment it will make the memory to become Redefined until the negative sentiment is removed.
MEANINGFULNESS SYSTEM + FUNDAMENTAL MOODLETS
Sims will have a Meaningfulness system that will cause different moodlets and Fundamental moodlets (e.g. Low Meaningfulness bar = risk of getting the Depressed Fundamental moodlet. Complete negative & positive whims (want & fears) and gain / lose Satisfaction points + Meaningfullness points + Self-esteem points
1. Prosperous (occasionally gets a moodlet that increase positive emotions +2, constant and slow increase in Self-esteem points, different positive moodlets)
2. Satisfied (occasionally gets a moodlet that increase positive emotions +1)
3. Ok (occasionally gets a moodlet that increase neutral emotions)
4. Down (occasionally gets a moodlet that increase negative emotions -1)
5. Depressed (occasionally gets a moodlet that increase negative emotions -2, risk of getting mental break-downs, Risk of getting the negative Fundamental moodlet Depressed = lower the effect of all positive moodlets, constant and slow decrease in self-confidence, reduces energy bar faster, getting exhausted from work out faster, lower learning abilities and shorter times with focus).
IMPROVED WHIMS SYSTEM
https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/comment/17819361#Comment_17819361
LIFE STRUGGLES PACK
Collect Negative & Positive points from life experiences. Resolve your sim’s Negative life points with their Positive life points. High amount of Negative / Positive / Resolved points will give your sim specific moodlets. (e.g: a sim that did have a rough life will gain more specific negative moodlets). Self esteem system and Meaningfulness system.
https://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/986200/life-struggles-pack-updates-sims-4-memory-system-consequences-wants-fears-personality-overhaul
PERSONALITIES
I also think that they need to upgrade/fix the personalities. Trait need to give a sim specific moodlets and I hope they can add a temperament system as an addition to the existing trait system. E.g. having a high level of INTROVERT temperament = higher risk of getting INTROVERT moodlets (e.g. Overwhelmed Introvert and Shy):
1. SENSITIVE - RATIONAL
2. INTROVERT – EXTROVERT
3. PLAYFUL - SERIOUS
4. IMPULSIVE – REFLECTIVE
5. PERSISTENT – UNMOTIVATED
#FixThePersonalities
LIFE STRUGGLES PACK