One of the great things about supply and demand is that it always sorts it's self out in the end.
True. Though this is the only fanbase that I know that might not absolutely love the supply, but will still buy it regardless because there's nothing else to add to their game. I understand that some love the newest stuff pack. And that is all good. However some are going in with the attitude of "it's better than nothing so I should buy" :I
I actually just adressed this to you on another thread in another context.
Here you seem to be more focused on the subjective notion of what constitutes worthy content.
I'm afraid you're fighting a losing battle there...people want what they want and trying to make them see it another way is folly.
However I watched your video pertaining to the technical problems you are having where your footing is a lot more sound.
What that boils down to is either your equipment, mods you have in game, or bugs everyone is dealing with but don't find game breaking enough to take the drastic step of boycotting.
My tolerance for bugs and glitches in games like CIvilization and the Sims is a lot higher because I understand the technical complications that go along with games which depend heavily on random AI that adpapts on the fly...there's literally no way to properly test all the possible permutations in that kind of environment. Especially when you throw in variables like mods and CC.
If I buy a platformer for a console on the other hand?
I expect near perfection right out of the box.
I always wondered why people expected these Stuff Packs to be so wonderful. The ones for the Sims 3 and Sims 2 were garbage quite frankly, nothing but useless decor, and worth the same price. At least for the Sims 4, with all its flaws, the Stuff Packs actually have at least 1 type of gameplay object.
With TS3 we got stuff packs with 'stuff' and store packs with premium items so I feel like we had more choice. Besides if I only wanted the premium item I could buy it without all the other stuff.
"People really love to explore 'failure states. In fact, the failure states are really much more interesting than the success states." ~ Will Wright
I'm just a games student, but to see people ignore one really simple fact is difficult: the SP, GP and EP teams are SEPARATE. "Why can't they assist the EP team?" Because it doesn't work like that! In AAA games studios, there are separate teams that sometimes never cross over. Also consider that, as someone else in the thread said, stuff packs are mostly cosmetics, even if they did assist the EP team, that would not speed up the programming and game design process. There are specialist roles that people generally don't go out of in AAA studios.
I feel so sorry for the stuff pack team because they get plum every single time they churn out new content just because their coworkers are not fast enough at doing the same. And yeah, content! You don't just get a bowling alley, a wishing well, a hot tub, etc for £100+, you get loads of cas and build/buy stuff too and yes that deserves to be paid for if you want it. The teams work hard, making games and assets is not easy, it's a skilled job and deserves to be paid for (if you want it).
Anyway, just a reminder that the sims is not a life time subscription service, and it is not its predecessors either. A lot of people on here talk about it like its their right to have certain items in certain packs - EA puts out a product, you can choose whether or not to buy it. It's so unrealistic to think you're supposed to like every single thing they put out when there are so many different play styles and players. There are lots of stuff packs that I haven't bought because I wasn't interested in the content, no big deal. I wish EPs were faster but that's a fault with EA, they should hire more staff to expand that team.
I'm afraid I'm going to need you to describe in great detail why it would be impossible for the Stuff pack team to be reassigned to assisting with another type of pack. It's very clear the Sims team staff is divided into those three packs (and maybe an additional team), but why they cannot remerge into smaller teams just seems like a rather strange premise to me. Graham, once again as a great example, clearly worked on the base game, but now that the team has been divided into sub-teams, it's impossible for them to ever remerge or reassign themselves...?
I also find it very difficult to believe the entirety of the Stuff pack team is only capable of designing stuff. Graham clearly did extensive work on World Adventures, the stuff pack team has made unique party events, gameplay objects, animations and scripted NPCs in the past (seriously what's missing?), not to mention that based on my own knowledge of the gaming industry, it would be quite strange for EA to hire THAT many workers that can only create meshes and textures. The gaming industry is very tough, with workers often being overworked and too many would-be employees, not enough job positions. It's been this way for years, but when that happens, it tends to mean the stakes are raised on what's expected of you. Thus, I find it very hard to believe there'd be an entire subteam of rather limited workers and EA never thinks to replace them.
If you wish to argue they cannot be reassigned to aid another pack team, I'd ask you explain why in excrutiating detail. Explain like I'm five, here, because as I've yet, I've seen multiple people make such a claim, but no one has actually bothered explaining why that is or even describing the work process. Perhaps as a student, you could explain why on earth a game company would be incapable of redirecting it's workers to work on something else as the schedule demands it.
Dev is like baking. You have recipes with up to 19 different ingredients. To make cookies, you need a certain combination of these ingredients, to make pies another one. Mixing your cookie dough with the pie one won't give you twice as much pie dough. SPs have no Build mode budget (SimGuruGraham has told us so) for example. If you mix the SP team with the EP team, the resulting team will have a bit less Build mode than before, and a bit more CAS/Buy mode most likely. (Think mixing orange juice with water, there's less orange juice in your resulting drink than in your original orange juice).
That's part of my problem right there. Mind linking where he said that? I'd love to see the context because this is something many of us have expected about Sims 4 as an entire entity: perhaps it suffers from a limited budget. The very bolded bit shows it's not a limitation of worker's capacities, but rather a limitation of budget. That's my point: the move and adjustments are not as difficult as people make them out to be, it's just they....don't happen, for whatever reason.
As for everything else, I'd really rather see a detailed breakdown. What you've provided me, no offense, is still a matter of your knowledge vs. mine. Was hoping the guy I quoted would chime in so he could break down exactly how a work schedule might look. Thing is that to my knowledge, basic programming skills are a must for all workers with very limited exceptions. This is something I quickly came to learn because good writing is very difficult to find in the video game industry, and that's because not many people combine writing and programming as their skills, thus we usually end up with programmers writing stories that...kinda suck. Every googled article suggests as much: basic programming skills are expected; designing no, but programming yes. What's more, as I said, competition in the video game industry is ridiculous, and competition raises demands. EA is the biggest video game developer on the market, so it's rather strange to imagine them hiring a boatload of people that can design but can't program worth a darn, plus based on what they've done so far, we at least know they have the capacity to create NPC task scripts, animations, skills, social events and of course CAS/buy mode objects. Yes, conceivably people will specialize in seperate areas and do better at certain tasks, but that does not mean they're incapable of helping out if and when push comes to shove. And if they truly can't...? Even then, you'd have me cursing the bad luck of it, but it's still rather poor management of EA to have both limited workers and a low budget, thus my annoyance continues. What's more, I don't know that I would even consider more stuff in EPs a bad thing. The point is that as things stand, we repeatedly get a surplus of Stuff packs, one every three months, but EPs feel lacking. A single EP takes an average of ten months which is three SPs. That's three SPs worth of stuff that could go towards EPs, and that's three SPs worth of work where they've shown themselves capable of scripting NPC actions, developing skills, creating new assets and developing social events...where is the problem? Just if you took Bowling Stuff, Vintage Glamour and one more Stuff Pack of your choosing, CL already looks a tad bit better.
@ikiamyetta I really don't think this qualifies as different departments. Every single person on the GP, EP and SP team worked on the base game. I don't think they're magically not communicating with each other, incapable of helping each other or never within contact of each other (that'd be ridiculous), and yes you can put them all back on the same team. Knew another company that created multiple DLC, the base game team was divided into two teams during much of the DLC development, and lo and behold this did not stop them all from working on the final DLC together. Granted, this would be a matter of funding and money; EA as a publisher has to agree to pay so many workers for a particular project. It IS conceivable that EA is refusing to pay so many workers to produce an EP, but I'm saying if that's the case, that's a decision they make in their own interest for profit. As such, yes, we should complain if we feel packs are lacking or that we have a ridiculous surplus of a certain pack type.
I always wondered why people expected these Stuff Packs to be so wonderful. The ones for the Sims 3 and Sims 2 were garbage quite frankly, nothing but useless decor, and worth the same price. At least for the Sims 4, with all its flaws, the Stuff Packs actually have at least 1 type of gameplay object.
personally I think the sims 3
sets
venues
worlds
did a better job. as for stuff packs in the past I disagree about it having Nothing but useless decor.
they had new themed and styled versions of stuff with had hence the name. I found the stuff packs like bathroom and kitchen millions times better to the cool kitchen one with 4. same with romantic garden and mansion and garden stuff which was so much better.that pack even Had new items to build mansion roofs.
same with the sims 3 garden pack and with perfect pattio.
anyway,
the stuff packs in 4 when looking at packs such as these three above really do show less choice in styles with a item or two of premium yes, but are nothing much new, and at times quite frankly,nothing but complete garbage.
stuff packs in 4 are mostly stuff a very basic done new activty I mean you get more and bettter options in those new mods around for this game.
The bowling pack shows less thought in real bowling.
So their point is, it is okay to have sucky DLC because you don't do it ALL the time? How about we stop being one of the most nickel and dimed simulation fanbases outside train simulator? (Seriously, even Civilisation fans don't get this nickel and dimed, that should say something!).
On the downside, the reason why we keep on getting so many stuff packs is because they're cheap to make and people buy enough for them to recuperate the costs. Want better expansions and less stuff packs? Hold your valet and DO NOT invest into the stuff packs. Sure, it's almost impossible to make enough people hold their valets for stuff packs to go away, but as long as people are thinking "I'm only one in a million, my purchasing choices don't matter anyway", this will not change.
Of course if you like the current stuff pack apocalypse, feel free to continue buying them.}
EDIT: to add what bugs me is community's endless excuses. If you go to the "bugs" forum you even have people pointing others at the User Agreement that says that EA does not need to fix things and is not to blame if their product does not work AT ALL and just point how "you accepted this, so you can't complain!". Seriously? You CAN complain. And you SHOULD complain.
Though there's a clear and cogent argument to be made that Maxis doesn't need the level of profit they get to continue this franchise and could probably coast for a while just on the money they've made this year if they were both their own publisher and developer, that's simply not the case and Maxis has been owned by EA for ages now. Because of this, the sims needs to do more than stay out of the red; it needs to meet profit goals and hold its own as a money-maker title.
I think it's pretty impressive that it's holding its own with semi-regular DLC packs. And I'm also content that they aren't pushing it further than what it is. Some talk of things becoming worse, yet we don't have any microtransaction TS3 store kind of thing going on. I wasn't there for the TS3 store, but it sure seems like a step forward to me getting past that, not back.
And as far as nickel and diming goes, keep in mind that most games don't put out regular content after release, unless they are an MMO and MMOs mostly survive right now on F2P models, which are easily the most hateable and ethically bankrupt models in the industry.
The point I'm leading up to is, Maxis has a lot of employees they need to keep on payroll to maintain the pace and depth of content that they're putting out each year for this one and that doesn't come at no cost. So I don't really understand how you can use the phrase "recuperate the costs" as if it's something icky. There are costs... they have to recuperate them. If they couldn't recuperate them, they wouldn't be able to continue doing it. If SP sales plummeted in the next year to the point that they weren't making back the money being spent, they might move some of the SP team over to the other pack teams, or they might just lay off most of the SP team and have serious talks about the future of the franchise and what else could be done to pad quarterly numbers.
Cause ultimately, I'd bet money that padding quarterlies is the main reason for the pricing and regularity of SPs. Profit for the sims doesn't live in a world anymore where the expectations revolve around yearly revenue (if it ever did). Everything revolves around quarterlies now, with publicly traded companies (e.g. EA), and EPs (and probably even GPs to a large extent) simply take too long to develop to meet a quarterly track with enough regularity to pad as needed.
And that's not even getting into the fact that creatively, having SPs with regularity allows them to add mini-themes to the game that they wouldn't have otherwise been able to fit into larger packs. Yet this is considered a bad thing because, I take it, the assumption is that if they had less-profit-oriented priorities, they would stuff the SP stuff into EPs and make the EPs more meaty at the same price? And maybe they would, but even supposing they were capable of it, that wouldn't help them with quarterly expectations.
So I guess my point is, we can ask the model to change, but protesting the sims isn't going to change the larger model of the finance world. And as long as that larger model is the model being used by the publicly traded financial sector, game companies like Maxis that are working under EA's publishing are going to be locked into using models that, one way or another, bring in regular quarterly revenue without ballooning production costs into the stratosphere. And I say the part about ballooning costs because one could theoretically argue that they could just hire a second GP team / merge the SP team into one, and organize things so that quarterly releases are more meaty and don't ever feel SP-piecemealed, and are also meeting profit goals (assuming the profit model worked with customers). But the cost to cover expanding in such a way could easily be more than the profit can bear and for a game 2+ years in, would involve great financial risk. So for the reason of risk alone, it's unlikely we're going to see any significant changes in model until the next iteration.
And if the model for this one starts blatantly failing, that's probably going to be used by corporate suits as an argument against the future of the sims, not as a calmly received sign that the model needs updating. So rather than trying to convince people to boycott who are enjoying themselves, I think it would be more productive to suggest alternative models, in detail; models that take into account the needs of a quarterly financial structure (obviously not in this thread though, as that'd be way off-topic). I don't know how you'd get such ideas in front of the eyes of the people who make those decisions, rather than lower echelon devs, but it might provoke interesting discussion at least, and get people talking about realistic alternatives that they would be supportive of.
And if the model for this one starts blatantly failing, that's probably going to be used by corporate suits as an argument against the future of the sims, not as a calmly received sign that the model needs updating. So rather than trying to convince people to boycott who are enjoying themselves, I think it would be more productive to suggest alternative models, in detail; models that take into account the needs of a quarterly financial structure (obviously not in this thread though, as that'd be way off-topic). I don't know how you'd get such ideas in front of the eyes of the people who make those decisions, rather than lower echelon devs, but it might provoke interesting discussion at least, and get people talking about realistic alternatives that they would be supportive of.
There's never going to be a more profitable model than the one that milks a franchise to death. If you're enjoying this onslaught of stuff packs by the way, I do not suggest that you stop buying. However settling down for something that is "better than nothing" on the most positive note and just dragging the franchise like this is unacceptable.
There's never going to be a more profitable model than the one that milks a franchise to death. If you're enjoying this onslaught of stuff packs by the way, I do not suggest that you stop buying. However settling down for something that is "better than nothing" on the most positive note and just dragging the franchise like this is unacceptable.
I'm not sure what you're calling "design", because a designer in a video game team is a specific job. Among lots of others like concept artists (like at Riot), character artists (at Blizzard), animators (Blizzard), producers (Blizzard), etc. None of them are asked to be as proficient at Python or C++ as a programmer. Compare that to these job openings for example (Blizzard or Rockstar or Riot), it's a completely different set of skills. And even among the programmers, there's a huge panel of different jobs. I took job openings outside of EA so you can see it's not just EA that is looking for more specialized skills.
I'm just a games student, but to see people ignore one really simple fact is difficult: the SP, GP and EP teams are SEPARATE. "Why can't they assist the EP team?" Because it doesn't work like that! In AAA games studios, there are separate teams that sometimes never cross over. Also consider that, as someone else in the thread said, stuff packs are mostly cosmetics, even if they did assist the EP team, that would not speed up the programming and game design process. There are specialist roles that people generally don't go out of in AAA studios.
I feel so sorry for the stuff pack team because they get plum every single time they churn out new content just because their coworkers are not fast enough at doing the same. And yeah, content! You don't just get a bowling alley, a wishing well, a hot tub, etc for £100+, you get loads of cas and build/buy stuff too and yes that deserves to be paid for if you want it. The teams work hard, making games and assets is not easy, it's a skilled job and deserves to be paid for (if you want it).
Anyway, just a reminder that the sims is not a life time subscription service, and it is not its predecessors either. A lot of people on here talk about it like its their right to have certain items in certain packs - EA puts out a product, you can choose whether or not to buy it. It's so unrealistic to think you're supposed to like every single thing they put out when there are so many different play styles and players. There are lots of stuff packs that I haven't bought because I wasn't interested in the content, no big deal. I wish EPs were faster but that's a fault with EA, they should hire more staff to expand that team.
I'm afraid I'm going to need you to describe in great detail why it would be impossible for the Stuff pack team to be reassigned to assisting with another type of pack. It's very clear the Sims team staff is divided into those three packs (and maybe an additional team), but why they cannot remerge into smaller teams just seems like a rather strange premise to me. Graham, once again as a great example, clearly worked on the base game, but now that the team has been divided into sub-teams, it's impossible for them to ever remerge or reassign themselves...?
I also find it very difficult to believe the entirety of the Stuff pack team is only capable of designing stuff. Graham clearly did extensive work on World Adventures, the stuff pack team has made unique party events, gameplay objects, animations and scripted NPCs in the past (seriously what's missing?), not to mention that based on my own knowledge of the gaming industry, it would be quite strange for EA to hire THAT many workers that can only create meshes and textures. The gaming industry is very tough, with workers often being overworked and too many would-be employees, not enough job positions. It's been this way for years, but when that happens, it tends to mean the stakes are raised on what's expected of you. Thus, I find it very hard to believe there'd be an entire subteam of rather limited workers and EA never thinks to replace them.
If you wish to argue they cannot be reassigned to aid another pack team, I'd ask you explain why in excrutiating detail. Explain like I'm five, here, because as I've yet, I've seen multiple people make such a claim, but no one has actually bothered explaining why that is or even describing the work process. Perhaps as a student, you could explain why on earth a game company would be incapable of redirecting it's workers to work on something else as the schedule demands it.
If the costume designer on a film is done with their job, should they then go and help the sound team? Should the writer help with make-up on set because his job is done?
Does a person working in the finance department go upstairs to aid the struggling marketing team because she's finished all her paperwork for the day?
Game developers are not general practitioners of anything game related. A lot of indie people just starting out these days are really into learning more than one part because they're indie and they will need to do most of the work themselves or help out their tiny team. People working in AAA do so because they SPECIALISE, like every other high skilled job. My university is the only one in the country that teaches a little bit of coding in the first year, after that you speciaise in 3D or 2D like everyone else. If I got a job as a 3D Modeller at EA I would not expect to be asked to help out in a completely different department doing a job I was not trained for and it would be very unprofessional for EA to ask this of their staff when that is not in their contracts.
Really, just look up job advertisements for working as an artist, programmer or designer (three separate areas with more specialisation within them) and note how everyone asks for a very specific role to be filled, not a jack of all trades one.
If the costume designer on a film is done with their job, should they then go and help the sound team? Should the writer help with make-up on set because his job is done?
Does a person working in the finance department go upstairs to aid the struggling marketing team because she's finished all her paperwork for the day?
Game developers are not general practitioners of anything game related. A lot of indie people just starting out these days are really into learning more than one part because they're indie and they will need to do most of the work themselves or help out their tiny team. People working in AAA do so because they SPECIALISE, like every other high skilled job. My university is the only one in the country that teaches a little bit of coding in the first year, after that you speciaise in 3D or 2D like everyone else. If I got a job as a 3D Modeller at EA I would not expect to be asked to help out in a completely different department doing a job I was not trained for and it would be very unprofessional for EA to ask this of their staff when that is not in their contracts.
Really, just look up job advertisements for working as an artist, programmer or designer (three separate areas with more specialisation within them) and note how everyone asks for a very specific role to be filled, not a jack of all trades one.
Except in game development if you're done with your part of work you'll be moved to work on a different SP/GP/EP. Still doing your job, but on a different product. Then if you're needed, you'll be moved back on the previous product. In big companies that normally means not ever working on just one game. For example Square Enix FFXIV producer does not know will they keep him on FFXIV, or will they move him on a different project, because he is moved around as needed.
With all the needless hub-bub about bowling recently, I thought I would address this since no one else seems to be. Just think about your answers to the following questions, and maybe you'll figure out what I'm getting at here:
Do your Sims play on the waterslides everyday? (Backyard Stuff)
Do your Sims make and then eat ice cream everyday? (Cool Kitchen)
Do your Sims make popcorn and watch a movie everyday? (Movie Hangout)
Do your Sims put on/watch a puppet show everyday? (Kid's Room)
Do your Sims celebrate Halloween (costume party or whatever) everyday? (Spooky Stuff)
Do your Sims throw grand parties everyday with buffets? (Luxury Party)
Do your Sims use the hot-tub everyday? (Perfect Patio)
Do your Sims always hire/use the Butler? (Vintage Glamour)
Do your Sims use the wishing well everyday? (Romantic Garden)
Will your Sims go bowling everyday? (Bowling Night)
They'll only do that stuff sometimes, right? Maybe for special occassions. Maybe to spice up the day-to-day routine. And maybe they only get a Butler when they get rich enough for one, right?
Doesn't that put a perspective on the whole thing here? They're side activities. The spices of a meal, not the meat n potatos. So why, oh why, do people talk like they're disappointed they won't be able to enjoy bowling 24/7 when we all know even with the best bowling, in whatever pack you'd prefer, it still wouldn't be used every single day, or even all the time.
Let's expand this further:
Do your Sims eat at a restaurant everyday? (Dine Out)
Do your Sims go to the spa every day? (Spa Day)
Do your Sims all get turned into vampires? (Vampires)
Do your Sims go to Granite Falls every weekend? (Outdoor Retreat - and I say every weekend here because it's a vacation spot, lol.)
See? Even GPs don't get used all the time. How about EPs?
Do your Sims always have an active career? (GTW)
Do your Sims all live in the big city? (City Living)
Do your Sims all join/lead clubs? (GT)
Are you starting to get it yet? Each pack, regardless of size or value, provides aspects to the game. Now let's say, for the sake of covering discussion, that you want to compare the larger packs to the SPs with just a small addition, like how some people keep thinking bowling should just be one object in CL instead of the 40 in the pack.
Do your Sims play basketball everyday? (CL)
Do your Sims play fooseball everyday? (GT)
Do your Sims use that scientist randomizer ray thing everyday? (GTW)
...
Just some food for thought here. Whether you like bowling or not, it's still something your Sims would only use every now and then, when you happen to be at whatever venue it's at, or if you put it in your home and happen to throw a party or something. It's not that big of a deal either way.
And yes, as I mentioned, there are 40+ items in the pack. Not 1.
I'm not 100% certain of your point here. Are you saying that if something isn't used every day it's okay to serve it up half-done? It looks like you have just diminished pretty much every GP, EP, and SP in the game - lol. Or, am I reading this wrong?
Edit: It's okay - I was only reading all the questions and not your statements of opinion in-between. Hmmm . . .
If the costume designer on a film is done with their job, should they then go and help the sound team? Should the writer help with make-up on set because his job is done?
Does a person working in the finance department go upstairs to aid the struggling marketing team because she's finished all her paperwork for the day?
Game developers are not general practitioners of anything game related. A lot of indie people just starting out these days are really into learning more than one part because they're indie and they will need to do most of the work themselves or help out their tiny team. People working in AAA do so because they SPECIALISE, like every other high skilled job. My university is the only one in the country that teaches a little bit of coding in the first year, after that you speciaise in 3D or 2D like everyone else. If I got a job as a 3D Modeller at EA I would not expect to be asked to help out in a completely different department doing a job I was not trained for and it would be very unprofessional for EA to ask this of their staff when that is not in their contracts.
Really, just look up job advertisements for working as an artist, programmer or designer (three separate areas with more specialisation within them) and note how everyone asks for a very specific role to be filled, not a jack of all trades one.
Except in game development if you're done with your part of work you'll be moved to work on a different SP/GP/EP. Still doing your job, but on a different product. Then if you're needed, you'll be moved back on the previous product. In big companies that normally means not ever working on just one game. For example Square Enix FFXIV producer does not know will they keep him on FFXIV, or will they move him on a different project, because he is moved around as needed.
It sounds like that does happen, to an extent, within the Sims studio but that it also takes into account the development budget allocation for a particular type of pack. It makes sense to me that ten-dollar packs aren't going to get all the more expensive resources, like that needed to create a new kind of build item. You need a bigger development budget for those expensive resources (in my business, that would be four-colour printing, custom illustrations, design that attends to the layout of each page individually using many kinds of possible page elements, an intensive edit that covers every possible issue not just the key grammar and spelling ones) or you lose money. Some products have the budget for that; they have a big audience and are less of a niche and cost more. Other products don't have the budget for that; they are more niche and cheaper. And within any studio/firm/whatever, there's a limit to how much you can assume the profit on one product will cover losses on others before you bet wrong too many times and have no studio/firm/whatever anymore.
Post edited by luthienrising on
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I'm not sure what you're calling "design", because a designer in a video game team is a specific job. Among lots of others like concept artists (like at Riot), character artists (at Blizzard), animators (Blizzard), producers (Blizzard), etc. None of them are asked to be as proficient at Python or C++ as a programmer. Compare that to these job openings for example (Blizzard or Rockstar or Riot), it's a completely different set of skills. And even among the programmers, there's a huge panel of different jobs. I took job openings outside of EA so you can see it's not just EA that is looking for more specialized skills.
Thanks actually, you've been quite helpful with all this. The Twitter quotes from Graham I think are a bit taken out of context though as you said he mentioned budget constraints, while I think it's far more likely they don't want the stuff packs innovating key build mode objects and improvements. Would be weird if we had to buy a stuff pack to get basements, for example.
I do know of another company where demands were a but more universal regarding programming (only one of the project leads/producers lacked the knowledge, ironically), but perhaps that makes sense given both the project (different game type, different demands) and the smaller company size. Not sure, but irregardless, you've shown examples where they clearly are designated, and I tried following up with a quick google search of available jobs at EA specifically and only found this and this. Their own postings would carry the most weight, and even if someone wanted to argue one of the optionals of environment designer touched on programming, it's still clearly optional.
While that explains the issue to some degree, the answer is not exactly very reassuring. This would mean that EA knowingly doubled down on designers to such a degree that had never been done before with 2 and 3 and must've known just how much stuff packs they were setting up for development. My "hope" was that this was perhaps a poor move from project leads to divy people up this way, and a mistake that could easily be corrected with some reassignment to different teams. Also, technically speaking there still isn't anything stopping them from putting those designers on staff for expansions and thus providing expansions with more stuff, though while that certainly helps to make EPs feel a little more detailed (imagine City Living with Bowling Stuff, Vintage Glamour and Backyard Garden Stuff or something), it doesn't exactly remedy the problem regarding limited "main attractions." All this really means is that the mistake (aka, tons of side attractions, not many main features) is a bit more "set in stone," less likely to be corrected (they could of COURSE hire more programmers; anything is still possible, just some moves are bigger than others), and honestly more frustrating. It suggests the management must've known and expected this type of model from the beginning, and that replacing old project leads is not going to do a whole lot to improve on priorities. Hiring new staff is unlikely, given how EA is and one of their games would need to be comatose, on fire and being assaulted by a monster movie villain with a chainsaw before they'd even bat an eye and ask "is something wrong?"
Gotta be frank, you've proven me wrong here, but I'm not sure that's really a good thing for any of us. If anything, my outlook of Sims 4 just got a little more bleak.
I did realise TS4 is trying to blend all of their packs in and make them fit like a puzzle unlike TS3 when we got two completely different EPs that were very different in gameplay and style why can't this be done in TS4, why aren't they trying hard enough.
so...everything's a side activity in the game?
You can let your sim pee in their pants, no need for a toilet. You don't need a bed either, let them pass out.
The only thing you'd need is a shower in a can but they could just stink, it won't kill them. So... ?
I've heard people say "I can do all there is to do with bowling in a half hour." The point I was trying to make is that unless you're playing sims for most of a full, real life day, you probably won't be bowling for more than a half an hour at any given time anyway. Even if you do bother to send your Sims bowling every single time you play, realistically how long are they gonna be playing it for, regardless of how great it is? Hmm? 10 minutes? 20? Because it doesn't take nearly that long to get through a whole Sim day, you know?
I keep hearing people say that because they can get through all of bowling in a half hour, that's a bad thing. But unless you're specifically doing it to explore every little thing in the pack, it's really not, because most of the time you won't be doing it that long. People say Sims should bowl twice every single round. All that would do is double however long it takes for them to finish a game. Quadruple it if a full four Sims are playing the same lane. How often would you realistically go bowling if it actually took a full 20 minutes real time to do it? Probably once in a blue moon, right?
Most things in the Sims, from any of the packs, don't take long to do and they aren't meant to. Because you also have to fit in careers, filling needs, etc. Whether it's bowling, or basketball, or fooseball, or darts, it's a quick mini-game to boost fun and and a skill and give the Sims a bit of a life outside of the daily grind.
I still fail to see how horrible any of the pack models are. Maybe it's just me, but I know personally a huge chunk of any reason I get any pack is for the build/buy stuff in it. Even if you're not a builder, that's what you're gonna use the most. Or the CAS, which ever. It's unlikely that you're gonna care much that the arcade machine boosts fun by x-amount and the chess boosts it by y-amount. You're gonna get one or the other based on what you want the Sim to have. Bowling is one more activity, that isn't just a reskin of the fitness skill items unlike basketball, that gives you something to choose from.
But it's also NOT THE ONLY ITEM IN THE PACK. Think about the items you most often pull out of the build/buy mode. I'll bet if any of them have gameplay, it's chairs, tables, etc. The more you have, the more you have to choose from. And that is a factor, no matter how you would love to ignore it.
So there's a big debate here on the forums that Sims should play for double the amount of time they already do... because you know, it's super important that they have that second round every time... and yet not even a full day post release and there's a mod that cuts the current time in half, from 10 rounds to 5.
@TheGoodOldGamer I took my sim out bowling. She had a drink talked to a few sims and bowled a full game. It took about 10 RL minutes. She isn't even halfway through the first level of the skill. I don't know how these folks explored the whole pack in 30 minutes. I would like a mod to speed up the time between frames. 30 minutes has to be a fabrication because my sim and her bowling buddy spent at least 2 minutes idling between frames.
@TheGoodOldGamer I took my sim out bowling. She had a drink talked to a few sims and bowled a full game. It took about 10 RL minutes. She isn't even halfway through the first level of the skill. I don't know how these folks explored the whole pack in 30 minutes. I would like a mod to speed up the time between frames. 30 minutes has to be a fabrication because my sim and her bowling buddy spent at least 2 minutes idling between frames.
How long have you had that save for? It is possible that the increased idle is a sign of simulation lag and if you scrapped the save file and started a new one, you wouldn't be seeing it.
@TheGoodOldGamer I took my sim out bowling. She had a drink talked to a few sims and bowled a full game. It took about 10 RL minutes. She isn't even halfway through the first level of the skill. I don't know how these folks explored the whole pack in 30 minutes. I would like a mod to speed up the time between frames. 30 minutes has to be a fabrication because my sim and her bowling buddy spent at least 2 minutes idling between frames.
I'm pretty sure that the people who "explore the whole pack in 30 minutes" are using a cheat to get the bowling skill up to level 5. My Sim has gone bowling with his buddies 3 times and is still at level 1. I've seen some great fails, though.
As others have said, if you expect stuff packs to add new, exciting ways to play, then you'll be disappointed. I understand that there are some people who do everything possible with a game, expansion, or stuff pack when it first comes out, but that's not the way I play. Right now in my game, I have one Sim with hair from Luxury Party, and a couple of children who have the voidcritter battle station set up in their yard. I have several vampires, and my Sims often do yoga before going to work. One of them is a scientist, and another will be opening a retail store. Sometimes they eat at restaurants, and they often watch movies. They dress in clothing from stuff packs, and have furniture and landscaping from stuff packs. My Sims who are just starting out might use the tents from Outdoor Retreat. Every pack has added something to my game. Would I be willing to wait 5 years and pay $500 for the whole package? Probably not. But the piecemeal marketing suits me. Given that I've played over 2000 hours, I'd say I'm getting my money's worth.
(sorry, didn't read all of the comments to see if this was posted already)
It's not the stuff packs that I have a "problem" with. It's the rate at which they are being released compared to the amount of bugs that are still unresolved in the game. If they spent HALF as much time fixing the bugs as they do pumping out stuff packs, we might have an almost playable game, free of glitches.
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I actually just adressed this to you on another thread in another context.
Here you seem to be more focused on the subjective notion of what constitutes worthy content.
I'm afraid you're fighting a losing battle there...people want what they want and trying to make them see it another way is folly.
However I watched your video pertaining to the technical problems you are having where your footing is a lot more sound.
What that boils down to is either your equipment, mods you have in game, or bugs everyone is dealing with but don't find game breaking enough to take the drastic step of boycotting.
My tolerance for bugs and glitches in games like CIvilization and the Sims is a lot higher because I understand the technical complications that go along with games which depend heavily on random AI that adpapts on the fly...there's literally no way to properly test all the possible permutations in that kind of environment. Especially when you throw in variables like mods and CC.
If I buy a platformer for a console on the other hand?
I expect near perfection right out of the box.
With TS3 we got stuff packs with 'stuff' and store packs with premium items so I feel like we had more choice. Besides if I only wanted the premium item I could buy it without all the other stuff.
As for everything else, I'd really rather see a detailed breakdown. What you've provided me, no offense, is still a matter of your knowledge vs. mine. Was hoping the guy I quoted would chime in so he could break down exactly how a work schedule might look. Thing is that to my knowledge, basic programming skills are a must for all workers with very limited exceptions. This is something I quickly came to learn because good writing is very difficult to find in the video game industry, and that's because not many people combine writing and programming as their skills, thus we usually end up with programmers writing stories that...kinda suck. Every googled article suggests as much: basic programming skills are expected; designing no, but programming yes. What's more, as I said, competition in the video game industry is ridiculous, and competition raises demands. EA is the biggest video game developer on the market, so it's rather strange to imagine them hiring a boatload of people that can design but can't program worth a darn, plus based on what they've done so far, we at least know they have the capacity to create NPC task scripts, animations, skills, social events and of course CAS/buy mode objects. Yes, conceivably people will specialize in seperate areas and do better at certain tasks, but that does not mean they're incapable of helping out if and when push comes to shove. And if they truly can't...? Even then, you'd have me cursing the bad luck of it, but it's still rather poor management of EA to have both limited workers and a low budget, thus my annoyance continues. What's more, I don't know that I would even consider more stuff in EPs a bad thing. The point is that as things stand, we repeatedly get a surplus of Stuff packs, one every three months, but EPs feel lacking. A single EP takes an average of ten months which is three SPs. That's three SPs worth of stuff that could go towards EPs, and that's three SPs worth of work where they've shown themselves capable of scripting NPC actions, developing skills, creating new assets and developing social events...where is the problem? Just if you took Bowling Stuff, Vintage Glamour and one more Stuff Pack of your choosing, CL already looks a tad bit better.
@ikiamyetta I really don't think this qualifies as different departments. Every single person on the GP, EP and SP team worked on the base game. I don't think they're magically not communicating with each other, incapable of helping each other or never within contact of each other (that'd be ridiculous), and yes you can put them all back on the same team. Knew another company that created multiple DLC, the base game team was divided into two teams during much of the DLC development, and lo and behold this did not stop them all from working on the final DLC together. Granted, this would be a matter of funding and money; EA as a publisher has to agree to pay so many workers for a particular project. It IS conceivable that EA is refusing to pay so many workers to produce an EP, but I'm saying if that's the case, that's a decision they make in their own interest for profit. As such, yes, we should complain if we feel packs are lacking or that we have a ridiculous surplus of a certain pack type.
personally I think the sims 3
sets
venues
worlds
did a better job. as for stuff packs in the past I disagree about it having Nothing but useless decor.
they had new themed and styled versions of stuff with had hence the name. I found the stuff packs like bathroom and kitchen millions times better to the cool kitchen one with 4. same with romantic garden and mansion and garden stuff which was so much better.that pack even Had new items to build mansion roofs.
same with the sims 3 garden pack and with perfect pattio.
anyway,
the stuff packs in 4 when looking at packs such as these three above really do show less choice in styles with a item or two of premium yes, but are nothing much new, and at times quite frankly,nothing but complete garbage.
stuff packs in 4 are mostly stuff a very basic done new activty I mean you get more and bettter options in those new mods around for this game.
The bowling pack shows less thought in real bowling.
the bowling item just lacks thought...
I think it's pretty impressive that it's holding its own with semi-regular DLC packs. And I'm also content that they aren't pushing it further than what it is. Some talk of things becoming worse, yet we don't have any microtransaction TS3 store kind of thing going on. I wasn't there for the TS3 store, but it sure seems like a step forward to me getting past that, not back.
And as far as nickel and diming goes, keep in mind that most games don't put out regular content after release, unless they are an MMO and MMOs mostly survive right now on F2P models, which are easily the most hateable and ethically bankrupt models in the industry.
The point I'm leading up to is, Maxis has a lot of employees they need to keep on payroll to maintain the pace and depth of content that they're putting out each year for this one and that doesn't come at no cost. So I don't really understand how you can use the phrase "recuperate the costs" as if it's something icky. There are costs... they have to recuperate them. If they couldn't recuperate them, they wouldn't be able to continue doing it. If SP sales plummeted in the next year to the point that they weren't making back the money being spent, they might move some of the SP team over to the other pack teams, or they might just lay off most of the SP team and have serious talks about the future of the franchise and what else could be done to pad quarterly numbers.
Cause ultimately, I'd bet money that padding quarterlies is the main reason for the pricing and regularity of SPs. Profit for the sims doesn't live in a world anymore where the expectations revolve around yearly revenue (if it ever did). Everything revolves around quarterlies now, with publicly traded companies (e.g. EA), and EPs (and probably even GPs to a large extent) simply take too long to develop to meet a quarterly track with enough regularity to pad as needed.
And that's not even getting into the fact that creatively, having SPs with regularity allows them to add mini-themes to the game that they wouldn't have otherwise been able to fit into larger packs. Yet this is considered a bad thing because, I take it, the assumption is that if they had less-profit-oriented priorities, they would stuff the SP stuff into EPs and make the EPs more meaty at the same price? And maybe they would, but even supposing they were capable of it, that wouldn't help them with quarterly expectations.
So I guess my point is, we can ask the model to change, but protesting the sims isn't going to change the larger model of the finance world. And as long as that larger model is the model being used by the publicly traded financial sector, game companies like Maxis that are working under EA's publishing are going to be locked into using models that, one way or another, bring in regular quarterly revenue without ballooning production costs into the stratosphere. And I say the part about ballooning costs because one could theoretically argue that they could just hire a second GP team / merge the SP team into one, and organize things so that quarterly releases are more meaty and don't ever feel SP-piecemealed, and are also meeting profit goals (assuming the profit model worked with customers). But the cost to cover expanding in such a way could easily be more than the profit can bear and for a game 2+ years in, would involve great financial risk. So for the reason of risk alone, it's unlikely we're going to see any significant changes in model until the next iteration.
And if the model for this one starts blatantly failing, that's probably going to be used by corporate suits as an argument against the future of the sims, not as a calmly received sign that the model needs updating. So rather than trying to convince people to boycott who are enjoying themselves, I think it would be more productive to suggest alternative models, in detail; models that take into account the needs of a quarterly financial structure (obviously not in this thread though, as that'd be way off-topic). I don't know how you'd get such ideas in front of the eyes of the people who make those decisions, rather than lower echelon devs, but it might provoke interesting discussion at least, and get people talking about realistic alternatives that they would be supportive of.
There's never going to be a more profitable model than the one that milks a franchise to death. If you're enjoying this onslaught of stuff packs by the way, I do not suggest that you stop buying. However settling down for something that is "better than nothing" on the most positive note and just dragging the franchise like this is unacceptable.
He's saying it each time someone ask for an item/a feature that would require it, like here :
For the source of the "19 ingredients" and a more in-depth explanation of the "baking" and mixing the ingredients to make a pack, you can take a look here : http://classic.modthesims.info/showthread.php?p=4557753#post4557753
I'm not sure what you're calling "design", because a designer in a video game team is a specific job. Among lots of others like concept artists (like at Riot), character artists (at Blizzard), animators (Blizzard), producers (Blizzard), etc. None of them are asked to be as proficient at Python or C++ as a programmer. Compare that to these job openings for example (Blizzard or Rockstar or Riot), it's a completely different set of skills. And even among the programmers, there's a huge panel of different jobs. I took job openings outside of EA so you can see it's not just EA that is looking for more specialized skills.
If the costume designer on a film is done with their job, should they then go and help the sound team? Should the writer help with make-up on set because his job is done?
Does a person working in the finance department go upstairs to aid the struggling marketing team because she's finished all her paperwork for the day?
Game developers are not general practitioners of anything game related. A lot of indie people just starting out these days are really into learning more than one part because they're indie and they will need to do most of the work themselves or help out their tiny team. People working in AAA do so because they SPECIALISE, like every other high skilled job. My university is the only one in the country that teaches a little bit of coding in the first year, after that you speciaise in 3D or 2D like everyone else. If I got a job as a 3D Modeller at EA I would not expect to be asked to help out in a completely different department doing a job I was not trained for and it would be very unprofessional for EA to ask this of their staff when that is not in their contracts.
Really, just look up job advertisements for working as an artist, programmer or designer (three separate areas with more specialisation within them) and note how everyone asks for a very specific role to be filled, not a jack of all trades one.
Except in game development if you're done with your part of work you'll be moved to work on a different SP/GP/EP. Still doing your job, but on a different product. Then if you're needed, you'll be moved back on the previous product. In big companies that normally means not ever working on just one game. For example Square Enix FFXIV producer does not know will they keep him on FFXIV, or will they move him on a different project, because he is moved around as needed.
I'm not 100% certain of your point here. Are you saying that if something isn't used every day it's okay to serve it up half-done? It looks like you have just diminished pretty much every GP, EP, and SP in the game - lol. Or, am I reading this wrong?
Edit: It's okay - I was only reading all the questions and not your statements of opinion in-between. Hmmm . . .
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It sounds like that does happen, to an extent, within the Sims studio but that it also takes into account the development budget allocation for a particular type of pack. It makes sense to me that ten-dollar packs aren't going to get all the more expensive resources, like that needed to create a new kind of build item. You need a bigger development budget for those expensive resources (in my business, that would be four-colour printing, custom illustrations, design that attends to the layout of each page individually using many kinds of possible page elements, an intensive edit that covers every possible issue not just the key grammar and spelling ones) or you lose money. Some products have the budget for that; they have a big audience and are less of a niche and cost more. Other products don't have the budget for that; they are more niche and cheaper. And within any studio/firm/whatever, there's a limit to how much you can assume the profit on one product will cover losses on others before you bet wrong too many times and have no studio/firm/whatever anymore.
Thanks actually, you've been quite helpful with all this. The Twitter quotes from Graham I think are a bit taken out of context though as you said he mentioned budget constraints, while I think it's far more likely they don't want the stuff packs innovating key build mode objects and improvements. Would be weird if we had to buy a stuff pack to get basements, for example.
I do know of another company where demands were a but more universal regarding programming (only one of the project leads/producers lacked the knowledge, ironically), but perhaps that makes sense given both the project (different game type, different demands) and the smaller company size. Not sure, but irregardless, you've shown examples where they clearly are designated, and I tried following up with a quick google search of available jobs at EA specifically and only found this and this. Their own postings would carry the most weight, and even if someone wanted to argue one of the optionals of environment designer touched on programming, it's still clearly optional.
While that explains the issue to some degree, the answer is not exactly very reassuring.
Gotta be frank, you've proven me wrong here, but I'm not sure that's really a good thing for any of us.
You can let your sim pee in their pants, no need for a toilet. You don't need a bed either, let them pass out.
The only thing you'd need is a shower in a can but they could just stink, it won't kill them. So... ?
I keep hearing people say that because they can get through all of bowling in a half hour, that's a bad thing. But unless you're specifically doing it to explore every little thing in the pack, it's really not, because most of the time you won't be doing it that long. People say Sims should bowl twice every single round. All that would do is double however long it takes for them to finish a game. Quadruple it if a full four Sims are playing the same lane. How often would you realistically go bowling if it actually took a full 20 minutes real time to do it? Probably once in a blue moon, right?
Most things in the Sims, from any of the packs, don't take long to do and they aren't meant to. Because you also have to fit in careers, filling needs, etc. Whether it's bowling, or basketball, or fooseball, or darts, it's a quick mini-game to boost fun and and a skill and give the Sims a bit of a life outside of the daily grind.
I still fail to see how horrible any of the pack models are. Maybe it's just me, but I know personally a huge chunk of any reason I get any pack is for the build/buy stuff in it. Even if you're not a builder, that's what you're gonna use the most. Or the CAS, which ever. It's unlikely that you're gonna care much that the arcade machine boosts fun by x-amount and the chess boosts it by y-amount. You're gonna get one or the other based on what you want the Sim to have. Bowling is one more activity, that isn't just a reskin of the fitness skill items unlike basketball, that gives you something to choose from.
But it's also NOT THE ONLY ITEM IN THE PACK.
So there's a big debate here on the forums that Sims should play for double the amount of time they already do... because you know, it's super important that they have that second round every time... and yet not even a full day post release and there's a mod that cuts the current time in half, from 10 rounds to 5.
This line reminded me of:
How long have you had that save for? It is possible that the increased idle is a sign of simulation lag and if you scrapped the save file and started a new one, you wouldn't be seeing it.
I'm pretty sure that the people who "explore the whole pack in 30 minutes" are using a cheat to get the bowling skill up to level 5. My Sim has gone bowling with his buddies 3 times and is still at level 1. I've seen some great fails, though.
As others have said, if you expect stuff packs to add new, exciting ways to play, then you'll be disappointed. I understand that there are some people who do everything possible with a game, expansion, or stuff pack when it first comes out, but that's not the way I play. Right now in my game, I have one Sim with hair from Luxury Party, and a couple of children who have the voidcritter battle station set up in their yard. I have several vampires, and my Sims often do yoga before going to work. One of them is a scientist, and another will be opening a retail store. Sometimes they eat at restaurants, and they often watch movies. They dress in clothing from stuff packs, and have furniture and landscaping from stuff packs. My Sims who are just starting out might use the tents from Outdoor Retreat. Every pack has added something to my game. Would I be willing to wait 5 years and pay $500 for the whole package? Probably not. But the piecemeal marketing suits me. Given that I've played over 2000 hours, I'd say I'm getting my money's worth.
It's not the stuff packs that I have a "problem" with. It's the rate at which they are being released compared to the amount of bugs that are still unresolved in the game. If they spent HALF as much time fixing the bugs as they do pumping out stuff packs, we might have an almost playable game, free of glitches.
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