Yeah, it's kinda sad. Remember these OR concept drawings with Sims wandering through the woods, exploring different areas and finding secret locations ? In the end we got a nice camping experience, but the exploring part kinda felt untouched. There are no obstacles or rough terrain, even for the hidden lot it's just a neat little forest to walk through.
Can't some billionaire who also loves the Sims fund some packs ?
Gotta say though, compared to Spa Day, Dine Out seems like they had more budget for that one.
Maybe. Can't tell until after it comes out I guess. Yeah I think lack of rough terrain has to do with lack of terrain tool. Don't get me started on that. It's on my list along with toddlers are build requests. XD I wish a billionaire could. I thought Spa Day got good reviews? I haven't heard that much criticism with GPs. Sims wandering through the woods and areas sounds like it would have been a fun activity.
“Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
In my opinion, toddlers will come to Sims4. Simply because it would be marketing suicide for them not to. No matter what EP, GP or even SP that is released for Sims4, there are always comments about toddlers and the lack of toddlers. Consumers can have a long memory, and a damaged reputation is a hard thing to get past. If the Sims4 series ended without toddlers, a majority of their consumers would never trust them at their words again. In the back of every family players mind when they load up Sims5, memories of the past would still remain. That doubt would always be there. Happy customers buy products, hesitant ones might not.
One of the most popular and longest running threads on the feedback page is about toddlers and family play. We have a stickied thread for ideas about toddlers. For all those people who have posted or currently post in those threads and keep them alive and growing ... we have a long memory.
In my opinion, toddlers will come to Sims4. Simply because it would be marketing suicide for them not to. No matter what EP, GP or even SP that is released for Sims4, there are always comments about toddlers and the lack of toddlers. Consumers can have a long memory, and a damaged reputation is a hard thing to get past. If the Sims4 series ended without toddlers, a majority of their consumers would never trust them at their words again. In the back of every family players mind when they load up Sims5, memories of the past would still remain. That doubt would always be there. Happy customers buy products, hesitant ones might not.
One of the most popular and longest running threads on the feedback page is about toddlers and family play. We have a stickied thread for ideas about toddlers. For all those people who have posted or currently post in those threads and keep them alive and growing ... we have a long memory.
I think 'saving' money on not developing them now would be very short term thinking. Because every time you allow a customer to feel 'had' in some way you are making them feel that they don't respect their customers and are far less likely to invest in the future.
I mean how many people have you seen who always preordered that are no longer going to do so?! That preorder sale goes a long way towards helping the company underpin development costs and what is realistic for them to put money into. Losing those preorder addicts makes it much harder to anticipate what the market will be and how much to gamble on development.
Not only did they rush it, instead of building up Sims 4 on a brand new engine they utilized an already built engine and had to develop within that engine constraints.
they didn't build a new engine for The Sims 3 honestly. Except that for The Sims 3 they used a modified The Sims 2 engine, while The Sims 4 is running on a new one.
Even if they did they still made a open world, created Cast and I was able to create my own worlds. The same can't be said for Sims 4, now you might say why so mush disdain for EA/Maxis using a already created engine, it is because it is not as flexible as the ones used in Sims 3 or even 2.
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I think 'saving' money on not developing them now would be very short term thinking. Because every time you allow a customer to feel 'had' in some way you are making them feel that they don't respect their customers and are far less likely to invest in the future.
I mean how many people have you seen who always preordered that are no longer going to do so?! That preorder sale goes a long way towards helping the company underpin development costs and what is realistic for them to put money into. Losing those preorder addicts makes it much harder to anticipate what the market will be and how much to gamble on development.
Do I still buy the releases for the Sims4, yes. Do I rush out on the day of release to get it. No. I get it if it is on sale or part of a bundle, then maybe. Are there stuff packs that I haven't bought yet ... sure are. Will I get them, I may, but again, I may not.
If the powers that be did release toddlers and if the powers that be drew inspiration from the stickied thread or from the family play thread, many family players would feel that their voice was heard, that they were listened to. It would be a marketing goldmine.
I think 'saving' money on not developing them now would be very short term thinking. Because every time you allow a customer to feel 'had' in some way you are making them feel that they don't respect their customers and are far less likely to invest in the future.
I mean how many people have you seen who always preordered that are no longer going to do so?! That preorder sale goes a long way towards helping the company underpin development costs and what is realistic for them to put money into. Losing those preorder addicts makes it much harder to anticipate what the market will be and how much to gamble on development.
Do I still buy the releases for the Sims4, yes. Do I rush out on the day of release to get it. No. I get it if it is on sale or part of a bundle, then maybe. Are there stuff packs that I haven't bought yet ... sure are. Will I get them, I may, but again, I may not.
If the powers that be did release toddlers and if the powers that be drew inspiration from the stickied thread or from the family play thread, many family players would feel that their voice was heard, that they were listened to. It would be a marketing goldmine.
Completely agree.
I mean I was a preorder addict. If it was the sims I'd have it preordered as soon as I was able. Now I'm cold turkey-I just don't buy because for me it's just too jarring without good early years play for my style of play.
Similar situation just different subjective experiences of the game thus far
Also if I felt I could trust them that toddlers would arrive I might even buy in anticipation. I just felt I couldn't do that while they were silent and the stories as to what happened kept changing.
Ok so I read through this whole thread and I have a few things to say.
1. First, I want to put it out there that I am in the camp that thinks toddlers are coming. I honestly do. My biggest reasoning is that things they can't include in the game - open world, CASt etc - they've said from the get go they can't. But they've said literally nothing about toddlers because they can't talk about future content. To me, that says they're future content.
2. Secondly, like all who've posted here, I want news. And I have to be honest, I believe there is only way we can truly pressure them into saying something. And I'm not proud of it because it's extremely immature, but it has a chance of working. Every time they post something on twitter or facebook, or any other social media site where they announce content and regularly post - we should all reply with "TODDLERS". And that's it. Nothing else. So when Gurus, marketers for the EA/Maxis click the link and view replies - it says nothing but toddlers. If THAT doesn't tell them how much players want them I don't know what will.
But of course - that won't ever happen because not only would everyone have to do it, but not everyone wants toddlers to begin with.
*Sigh* Anyways, I will just continue to play S3 until S4 gets up to par
Just a question, for anyone saying EA didn't see a profit in toddlers, how so? They've sold previous games with toddlers perfectly fine and seeing the hulabaloo everyone is making about the missing toddlers in 4 isn't that more of a reflection that toddlers either have no effect on profit or contribute to more profit? Not trying to say it can't be so I'm just confused XD
Yeah I am also wondering this- I thought I read someplace the Generations Ep was the best selling in the sims 3. ill have to do some research....
I don't really understand how they know what we play with and what we don't and what style we play in. can someone tell how they "know" what the mass majority wants?
I don't really understand how they know what we play with and what we don't and what style we play in. can someone tell how they "know" what the mass majority wants?
That interview killed any hope I had for toddlers ever returning to this iteration. It comes off as gloating and mocking that a life stage being admitted from the game. So honestly I can't say I'm too happy about that interview especially after the Gamescom dancing. What a joke that was. I've never been more embarrassed to call myself a Simmer then.
“Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
"If" toddler's ever make a comeback to S4 I just hope they are nothing like the babies being stuck tied down to the crib, but even if they are? I would want to see them like the S2 toddlers at least where they can crawl & walk around the house...I wasn't much of a family player, but when I was? I had fun seeing my sims family grow.
If my long years lurking (and occasionally posting) on gaming forums and listening to game developers have taught me anything, it's that forum members are not indicative of the average person playing the game. Toddlers are a big deal here, but I would not be a bit surprised to learn that the percentage of people who actually played with toddlers or bought content for them was low. There's no way of knowing for sure, of course, but time after time I've seen that statistics for the general playerbase of a game do not match up with the forum's.
Telemetry tells us what people are doing, but not why. It's not a great idea to base all your development decisions on telemetry - just because most people only complete 50% or less of a story/mainquest focused game doesn't mean you should stop making endings for them, for example. And just because people aren't using a feature doesn't mean they think it isn't valuable in some way. Telemetry from my games would show that my sims rarely leave the house. That doesn't mean I would be interested in a Sims game without community lots, despite the fact that I stay at my active family's home lot over 90% of the time.
However, everything in video game development requires evaluations and tradeoffs. Everything takes time and money and resources, which are anything but infinite. Let's call those zots. Every potential feature needs a certain amount of zots, and developers have to decide whether or not the feature is worth those zots. The more zots you use on one feature, the less you have for other features in the game. Toddlers (done well, of course) require a lot of zots. Exclusive animations, behaviors, interactive objects, clothing and hair meshes...the list goes on. Let's say the telemetry indicates that a small percentage of your playerbase does anything with toddlers. Thus, it's many zots for the shortest life stage that few people ever see. Is it really worth all that time, money, and effort? Always keep in mind that when you want to develop a feature in a video game, you have to choose something to remove in order for that to happen. There's only so many zots overall for developing a game.
At launch, they decided that toddlers weren't worth it. Those zots were needed for other things they wanted to do. And they've gotten plenty of complaints about that decision. Perhaps they'll decide that toddlers are worth the zots because they bring some kind of intangible value to players that isn't readily visible in the telemetry. And toddlers may have the more tangible benefit of fewer complaints from the fanbase. You don't want openly dissatisfied customers. Perhaps toddlers will even bring in more sales from people who have been on the fence about TS4 for that reason or others. Or perhaps they'll decide the zots required to make toddlers far outweigh any benefits (tangible or otherwise) and won't include them.
At any rate, whatever is going on with toddlers is not information available to us and is all rampant speculation. My gut tells me that the team is working to figure out exactly how costly toddlers are in terms of zots and whether or not they're ultimately worth it. And that they'll ultimately release something that may or may not be to the community's liking. But my gut isn't always accurate.
Even if they did they still made a open world, created Cast and I was able to create my own worlds. The same can't be said for Sims 4, now you might say why so mush disdain for EA/Maxis using a already created engine, it is because it is not as flexible as the ones used in Sims 3 or even 2.
didn't say was it a bad, or a good thing, simply pointed out that The Sims 3 did not have its own engine. That being said even though the current engine decision might not be the best one (why use the SimCity engine when you have your Battlefield Engine (forgot how its called, but that one is advanced)), The Sims series went for forever on the same engine and at some point they'll have to take that extra development time to move to a newer one (wondering will they stick with this one for The Sims 5).
"Zots" is a shorthand way of saying "the limited amount of time and money and resources given to develop something in a game." It's slang I picked up from the BioWare forum, many moons ago.
If my long years lurking (and occasionally posting) on gaming forums and listening to game developers have taught me anything, it's that forum members are not indicative of the average person playing the game. Toddlers are a big deal here, but I would not be a bit surprised to learn that the percentage of people who actually played with toddlers or bought content for them was low. There's no way of knowing for sure, of course, but time after time I've seen that statistics for the general playerbase of a game do not match up with the forum's.
Telemetry tells us what people are doing, but not why. It's not a great idea to base all your development decisions on telemetry - just because most people only complete 50% or less of a story/mainquest focused game doesn't mean you should stop making endings for them, for example. And just because people aren't using a feature doesn't mean they think it isn't valuable in some way. Telemetry from my games would show that my sims rarely leave the house. That doesn't mean I would be interested in a Sims game without community lots, despite the fact that I stay at my active family's home lot over 90% of the time.
However, everything in video game development requires evaluations and tradeoffs. Everything takes time and money and resources, which are anything but infinite. Let's call those zots. Every potential feature needs a certain amount of zots, and developers have to decide whether or not the feature is worth those zots. The more zots you use on one feature, the less you have for other features in the game. Toddlers (done well, of course) require a lot of zots. Exclusive animations, behaviors, interactive objects, clothing and hair meshes...the list goes on. Let's say the telemetry indicates that a small percentage of your playerbase does anything with toddlers. Thus, it's many zots for the shortest life stage that few people ever see. Is it really worth all that time, money, and effort? Always keep in mind that when you want to develop a feature in a video game, you have to choose something to remove in order for that to happen. There's only so many zots overall for developing a game.
At launch, they decided that toddlers weren't worth it. Those zots were needed for other things they wanted to do. And they've gotten plenty of complaints about that decision. Perhaps they'll decide that toddlers are worth the zots because they bring some kind of intangible value to players that isn't readily visible in the telemetry. And toddlers may have the more tangible benefit of fewer complaints from the fanbase. You don't want openly dissatisfied customers. Perhaps toddlers will even bring in more sales from people who have been on the fence about TS4 for that reason or others. Or perhaps they'll decide the zots required to make toddlers far outweigh any benefits (tangible or otherwise) and won't include them.
At any rate, whatever is going on with toddlers is not information available to us and is all rampant speculation. My gut tells me that the team is working to figure out exactly how costly toddlers are in terms of zots and whether or not they're ultimately worth it. And that they'll ultimately release something that may or may not be to the community's liking. But my gut isn't always accurate.
My gut tells me there are all sorts of things the team would like to do/make, but time is limited. It also tells me the big man at the helm calls the shots, regardless of what they want to do and what many here would like them to do.
I've also played many games. I've seen a good number of them go down for many such zots.
Dissatisfied with Sims 4 and hoping for a better Sims 5
My gut tells me there are all sorts of things the team would like to do/make, but time is limited. It also tells me the big man at the helm calls the shots, regardless of what they want to do and what many here would like them to do.
I've also played many games. I've seen a good number of them go down for many such zots.
Of course. That's true for many video games. People who go into creative mediums have thousands of ideas they'd like to make reality. Games tend to undergo significant content cuts somewhere from beginning to end because some ideas end up being bad and many end up being beyond the scope of what the team can afford in terms of zots.
There's not really a world that exists in which zots are unlimited. Sometimes the wrong calls are made with what should have been done with the zots. Video games are all about catching "fun" in a bottle. And "fun" is one of the most subjective things I can think of. It's a difficult thing to gauge resource allocation for.
My gut tells me there are all sorts of things the team would like to do/make, but time is limited. It also tells me the big man at the helm calls the shots, regardless of what they want to do and what many here would like them to do.
I've also played many games. I've seen a good number of them go down for many such zots.
Of course. That's true for practically every video game. People who go into creative mediums have thousands of ideas they'd like to make reality. Games tend to undergo significant content cuts somewhere from beginning to end because some ideas end up being bad and many end up being beyond the scope of what the team can afford in terms of zots.
There's not really a world that exists in which zots are unlimited. Sometimes the wrong calls are made with what should have been done with the zots. Video games are all about catching "fun" in a bottle. And "fun" is one of the most subjective things I can think of. It's a difficult thing to gauge resource allocation for.
I get that. There comes a point in every game where the 'fun' factor has to be re-evaluated. Time and money, versus how much money can be made with a profit margin comes into play. I could name off so many games I've played since the early '90's where I've seen a good game (game 1), a better game (game 2), and an 'okay' game, but... (game 3), and then watched it all go downhill from there.
It's the nature of the game—mind the pun.
I saw Tomb Raider mentioned here earlier, so I'll use it as an example since it's an old game and holds a dear place in my heart. I was an avid fan with 1 and 2. 3 was okay, but after that, I can not, in good concsience even call it Tomb Raider. I played every off-shoot you can think of for that game, always looking for that initial 'high' I got from the first two, but I never got it. Every iteration left me farther removed from that original feeling I had. It's the nature.
It gets to a point where a gaming company loses touch. They turn it into another game that merely bares the name in hopes of sales rather than letting it go gracefully. What's popular today? Let's integrate that. Do they know how though? Do they care if that's what the fans of that base wants? No. They lose touch with all that. It happens over and over.
I play S3, but I hightly suspect the developers were lead by the hand into a territory they were not familiar with. The issues with the game say the developers were out of their leaugue.
I'm not being unfair by saying this. It is what it is. A new leader comes in and leads the way with employees that may or may not always be able to live up to that new leader's expectations.
Don't get me wrong. I love the original Sims, I loved S2 the best. I never liked S3 until recently (oddly), but I know where this is going. It's going where all games go when the developers run out of ideas, skill, and time and money come into play.
I'm not saying this team is inept, but everyone has a specialty, and when you look at Sims 1 and 2, and then look at Sims 3 and 4, you start to see that this 'expertise' and understanding of its fanbase isn't where it should be.
Dissatisfied with Sims 4 and hoping for a better Sims 5
You know I might be in the minority, but I really don't think Olympus was originally sims 4. Reason well the time it was scrapped it was in 2012. 3 years before Sims 4, and Sims 4 was in production in 2009. Now what I think what really happen was ? Sims 4, and Olympus was two separate games . Sims Olympus was scrapped, so things they planned for Olympus. Was all incorporated to Sims 4, and thus making sims 4 we all know now.
Could still be that Olympus was worked on in 2009 then got scrapped into Sims 4 giving them 3 years to re-make things. You might be right, I can't say. But I highly doubt that there were two.
That seems more logical to me.
Having to restart and not have a time for toddlers and shorter teens because of all the animations they required. I doubt there were two games under development as well.
Comments
In my opinion, toddlers will come to Sims4. Simply because it would be marketing suicide for them not to. No matter what EP, GP or even SP that is released for Sims4, there are always comments about toddlers and the lack of toddlers. Consumers can have a long memory, and a damaged reputation is a hard thing to get past. If the Sims4 series ended without toddlers, a majority of their consumers would never trust them at their words again. In the back of every family players mind when they load up Sims5, memories of the past would still remain. That doubt would always be there. Happy customers buy products, hesitant ones might not.
One of the most popular and longest running threads on the feedback page is about toddlers and family play. We have a stickied thread for ideas about toddlers. For all those people who have posted or currently post in those threads and keep them alive and growing ... we have a long memory.
Could not agree more. Well said @Gruffman
I think 'saving' money on not developing them now would be very short term thinking. Because every time you allow a customer to feel 'had' in some way you are making them feel that they don't respect their customers and are far less likely to invest in the future.
I mean how many people have you seen who always preordered that are no longer going to do so?! That preorder sale goes a long way towards helping the company underpin development costs and what is realistic for them to put money into. Losing those preorder addicts makes it much harder to anticipate what the market will be and how much to gamble on development.
https://twitter.com/sparkfairy1
Do I still buy the releases for the Sims4, yes. Do I rush out on the day of release to get it. No. I get it if it is on sale or part of a bundle, then maybe. Are there stuff packs that I haven't bought yet ... sure are. Will I get them, I may, but again, I may not.
If the powers that be did release toddlers and if the powers that be drew inspiration from the stickied thread or from the family play thread, many family players would feel that their voice was heard, that they were listened to. It would be a marketing goldmine.
Completely agree.
I mean I was a preorder addict. If it was the sims I'd have it preordered as soon as I was able. Now I'm cold turkey-I just don't buy because for me it's just too jarring without good early years play for my style of play.
Similar situation just different subjective experiences of the game thus far
Also if I felt I could trust them that toddlers would arrive I might even buy in anticipation. I just felt I couldn't do that while they were silent and the stories as to what happened kept changing.
https://twitter.com/sparkfairy1
Pluming yes!
#Toddlers
"GC: So you’re satisfied that not having toddlers was the right choice?
RF: That’s the decision that we made based on all of the information that we had at the time. So absolutely, I feel like it’s the best decision for the game to date."
That interview killed any hope I had for toddlers ever returning to this iteration. It comes off as gloating and mocking that a life stage being admitted from the game. So honestly I can't say I'm too happy about that interview especially after the Gamescom dancing. What a joke that was. I've never been more embarrassed to call myself a Simmer then.
Telemetry tells us what people are doing, but not why. It's not a great idea to base all your development decisions on telemetry - just because most people only complete 50% or less of a story/mainquest focused game doesn't mean you should stop making endings for them, for example. And just because people aren't using a feature doesn't mean they think it isn't valuable in some way. Telemetry from my games would show that my sims rarely leave the house. That doesn't mean I would be interested in a Sims game without community lots, despite the fact that I stay at my active family's home lot over 90% of the time.
However, everything in video game development requires evaluations and tradeoffs. Everything takes time and money and resources, which are anything but infinite. Let's call those zots. Every potential feature needs a certain amount of zots, and developers have to decide whether or not the feature is worth those zots. The more zots you use on one feature, the less you have for other features in the game. Toddlers (done well, of course) require a lot of zots. Exclusive animations, behaviors, interactive objects, clothing and hair meshes...the list goes on. Let's say the telemetry indicates that a small percentage of your playerbase does anything with toddlers. Thus, it's many zots for the shortest life stage that few people ever see. Is it really worth all that time, money, and effort? Always keep in mind that when you want to develop a feature in a video game, you have to choose something to remove in order for that to happen. There's only so many zots overall for developing a game.
At launch, they decided that toddlers weren't worth it. Those zots were needed for other things they wanted to do. And they've gotten plenty of complaints about that decision. Perhaps they'll decide that toddlers are worth the zots because they bring some kind of intangible value to players that isn't readily visible in the telemetry. And toddlers may have the more tangible benefit of fewer complaints from the fanbase. You don't want openly dissatisfied customers. Perhaps toddlers will even bring in more sales from people who have been on the fence about TS4 for that reason or others. Or perhaps they'll decide the zots required to make toddlers far outweigh any benefits (tangible or otherwise) and won't include them.
At any rate, whatever is going on with toddlers is not information available to us and is all rampant speculation. My gut tells me that the team is working to figure out exactly how costly toddlers are in terms of zots and whether or not they're ultimately worth it. And that they'll ultimately release something that may or may not be to the community's liking. But my gut isn't always accurate.
Wow. But one question.. what are zots? I'm guessing there kinda like limited spots In the game engine for animations.. etc?
didn't say was it a bad, or a good thing, simply pointed out that The Sims 3 did not have its own engine. That being said even though the current engine decision might not be the best one (why use the SimCity engine when you have your Battlefield Engine (forgot how its called, but that one is advanced)), The Sims series went for forever on the same engine and at some point they'll have to take that extra development time to move to a newer one (wondering will they stick with this one for The Sims 5).
"Zots" is a shorthand way of saying "the limited amount of time and money and resources given to develop something in a game." It's slang I picked up from the BioWare forum, many moons ago.
My gut tells me there are all sorts of things the team would like to do/make, but time is limited. It also tells me the big man at the helm calls the shots, regardless of what they want to do and what many here would like them to do.
I've also played many games. I've seen a good number of them go down for many such zots.
Of course. That's true for many video games. People who go into creative mediums have thousands of ideas they'd like to make reality. Games tend to undergo significant content cuts somewhere from beginning to end because some ideas end up being bad and many end up being beyond the scope of what the team can afford in terms of zots.
There's not really a world that exists in which zots are unlimited. Sometimes the wrong calls are made with what should have been done with the zots. Video games are all about catching "fun" in a bottle. And "fun" is one of the most subjective things I can think of. It's a difficult thing to gauge resource allocation for.
I get that. There comes a point in every game where the 'fun' factor has to be re-evaluated. Time and money, versus how much money can be made with a profit margin comes into play. I could name off so many games I've played since the early '90's where I've seen a good game (game 1), a better game (game 2), and an 'okay' game, but... (game 3), and then watched it all go downhill from there.
It's the nature of the game—mind the pun.
I saw Tomb Raider mentioned here earlier, so I'll use it as an example since it's an old game and holds a dear place in my heart. I was an avid fan with 1 and 2. 3 was okay, but after that, I can not, in good concsience even call it Tomb Raider. I played every off-shoot you can think of for that game, always looking for that initial 'high' I got from the first two, but I never got it. Every iteration left me farther removed from that original feeling I had. It's the nature.
It gets to a point where a gaming company loses touch. They turn it into another game that merely bares the name in hopes of sales rather than letting it go gracefully. What's popular today? Let's integrate that. Do they know how though? Do they care if that's what the fans of that base wants? No. They lose touch with all that. It happens over and over.
I play S3, but I hightly suspect the developers were lead by the hand into a territory they were not familiar with. The issues with the game say the developers were out of their leaugue.
I'm not being unfair by saying this. It is what it is. A new leader comes in and leads the way with employees that may or may not always be able to live up to that new leader's expectations.
Don't get me wrong. I love the original Sims, I loved S2 the best. I never liked S3 until recently (oddly), but I know where this is going. It's going where all games go when the developers run out of ideas, skill, and time and money come into play.
I'm not saying this team is inept, but everyone has a specialty, and when you look at Sims 1 and 2, and then look at Sims 3 and 4, you start to see that this 'expertise' and understanding of its fanbase isn't where it should be.
That seems more logical to me.
Having to restart and not have a time for toddlers and shorter teens because of all the animations they required. I doubt there were two games under development as well.