Oh hi SimGuruLyndsay most appreciate post,
I understand but you see we are curious when we see our missing content or some changes at least, because some of us are already bored with sims 4 sorry to say this but this not only my thought.
With Sims 4 we see to much changes in our playstyle is almost gone as you can read in our previous posts, many people are not alright with the forced RPG Elements. We want at least the choices to decline work/ school tasks. It would be the best the opportunity system like in Sims 3, it was fun and also if i didn't like it i could still decline it.
Also the missing content like Toddler, Pools, Vehicles, Dishwasher ect. missing NPCs like Burglar, Police i heard you want them back too.
So i ask what will happen will we see them again ?
Thank you for your time !
I know how hard it is to see things "go missing" from the past - especially because we all feel particularly attached to specific things that affected our games. I have them too I really miss OFB for example and I really enjoyed the career rewards in TS2. So I too have changed my play styles over the years because of what I can do in the games instead. I'm an avid collector so for some reason that hoarding instinct keeps my Sims very busy lol.
You mention something very interesting - and another thing i think is KEY to the Sims - CHOICE. We always aim to provide options, the crayons of the game - for you to color the way you want. I think sometimes we get passionate about a particular implementation of choice that you respond very differently to once the game is in your hands (*cough* turning off tutorial *cough*). Historically we have listened and responded to this. Already with the Sims 4 we heard that many of you didn't like the white highlight outline so in one of our first patches we gave you a cheat to disable it. A small case, but a gesture nonetheless.
I can't promise any specific things at any specific times (I know that stinks to hear) but trust me it's all on the list of things we know you care greatly about.
Thank you! I understand and i will wait and see this Sims 4 improving And sorry about my bad english its not my native language... ^^ OFB is btw also my Favorite EP ever made thanks for creating it!
Hi all - this is a really interesting (if not difficult) thread to read being a developer on the Sims 4 team. You are clearly passionate about The Sims, which I genuinely appreciate. I wish I could answer each of these individually but you are already debating much of the challenges we encounter as developers as well. There is a very difficult balance in building everything YOU have asked for, creating a cohesive foundation experience and meeting deadlines (everybody has them) - sometimes that doesn't result in what we expect and we have to adapt. We make the best decisions we can with whatever information we have at the time. I hope you give us the benefit of the doubt that we are truly invested in continuing to grow The Sims. I have been working on the Sims for 12 years, I LOVE this game. I started on Sims 1, moved to Sims 2 and worked on the Sims 3 before leading The Sims 4. The Sims has become a huge experience over the years and has exceedingly high expectations of "what makes it the Sims" - you have all embraced it and made it your own in so many ways that it is virtually impossible for us to accommodate completely. That doesn't mean we don't try and that we don't talk about it constantly. We will try and engage you in everything we can as early as we can. Please keep talking to us, we are here. We are working very hard, every day, with you in our minds to keep The Sims, The Sims. I would love to see a discussion on what YOU think is really, truly at the heart of the Sims. I talk about it all of the time, but maybe, as you seem to suspect, I just really don't know any more. I am always open to being corrected and learning something new. Thank you for challenging us, I hope you see us rise to meet it.
SimguruLyndsay, Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to this thread. As you might have noticed there are many of us who are unhappy with the direction The Sims 4 is going. Speaking for myself, I can say the true heart of the Sims has always been it's ability to have players connect with thier sims. The bond a player formed with thier sims was something very special. You watched them live, love, cry, and shared in every joy, and every moment of sadness. Players like myself, had our sims marry, have children, and watch them grow, love and learn. Our options were only limited by our own imagination.
Sims 4 is a very goal oriented game. Completing these goals leaves no time for our sims to enjoy each other. A parent coming home and playing with thier child before dinner, instead both parent and child have a list of things they need to do. Parents spending some romantic time together, after getting the kids to bed. Again, there is no time left for these things, either they are to tierd, or they have something else they need to do. Some people say that we should just ignore those things. The problem with that is if you don't do these things, a percentage of the game is locked away from you. The gameplay itself has become very linear. The goal and reward system in the game, is far from the only problem. With the exclusion of toddlers, and a family tree, and babies being stuck to a bassinet, legacy and generational players like myself, have had our way to play ripped out of the game. Some people say we need to adapt. I have spent 14 years playing The Sims the same way, the way I enjoy playing, the playstyle that made me fall in love with the sims. I see no reason to change my play style, to something I wouldn't enjoy as much, simply to buy a new game. To expect fans to just throw away everything they loved about the game, is just asking to much.
You said you tried to build the game that everyone asked for. I don't know anybody who asked for any of this. I remember reading and asking about more interactions for all age groups, more family things in the game. Ironically it seems that Sims 4 has gone in the opposite direction, of what people I know, and myself actually wanted. I do know there are some who like the goal oriented style. No one I know, but I do know there are some on these forums. I am not against goals in game, as long as they are optional, without penalty if you choose not to do them. Sims 4 takes away from players having any options, when in the past, the options were almost limitless. Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I also hope you all can rise to meet our challenge. Until then, I will continue to play with my Sims 2 and 3.
Edited to add paragraphs to my wall of text....
Thank you for this thoughtful explanation - a couple interesting things jump out at me. First though, I'm sorry you feel we changed everything out from under you and I understand that point of view. I hope you can see the promise and see sparks of things that might excite you. As I mentioned above what I think you're looking for is a deeper connective tissue between your families, legacy, genetics - more ways for that to matter. I do think we didn't achieve what we wanted to there or what the Sims 4 is capable of. You also point out that people were asking for more interactions for ages and more family things in game - I actually think we DID do this but because you don't have the first thing (the connection and meaning of those actions) it still feels shallow. What I think a lesson for me is - things to do isn't the only thing you care about. Those things have to add up to something - they have to matter and that is just important as having the things in the first place.
The goals aspect of this comment is interesting as well. I think of the goals as ideas of WHAT I could do but I never play to them only (that is just my style). I can see why some people say "ignore them" but I'm curious why that feels wrong to you? Do you mean you feel compelled to accomplish career goals for example becuase you want to unlock a new stove? Or do you mean the aspiration goals? We actually "lock away" a pretty little amount when it comes down to it because we want you to be able to sandbox BUT give you something to work towards if you choose too. We've had version of goals & rewards in the past (TS2 & TS3 gated content behind achieving things)- what feels different about them in TS4?
I would love to see a discussion on what YOU think is really, truly at the heart of the Sims. I talk about it all of the time, but maybe, as you seem to suspect, I just really don't know any more.
To me, Sims is about playing out lifestyles the way you want to. I played TS1, but I really connected with TS2 because there was so much depth to the game play. Sure, there wasn't an open world, but that was made up for by the countless interactions and family/interpersonal dynamics you could work with. It had something for ever kind of player -- builders, legacy players, challenge oriented players, etc. If you had a single Sim, there was loads to do. If you had a Sim with a family, there was loads to do. It didn't so overwhelmingly go in one direction so countless methods of game play could be fulfilled in so many different ways. For example, I looove throwing parties for my Sims. It's a legitimate art that can be perfected, especially in Sims 2. And that's just one area of the game play. I also love building up my Sims' relationships with family members -- aunts, uncles, cousins. Throwing family reunions (which were acknowledged in TS2 btw) and keeping those ties close. In TS3, it was fun to have my sims obtain gems from all over the world and hand them down through the family. Those are examples of the depth I'm talking about. Sims to me is playing out lives, you know? Fulfilling my god complex. And that's hard to do when the game play is being geared too much in one direction (like with the whole supernatural/in the future/ fantasy thing with TS3) and when the game is basically telling you how to play (the overly task oriented game play that seems to have been implemented in TS4 as discussed).
I'm glad you guys are listening and I really hope that the dissatisfaction is nipped in the bud sooner rather than 6 EPs from now.
Thanks for checking in on us.
I think you represent a very common point of view - you seem to also want the depth of families & social relationships. I think it's interesting that you think TS4 is telling you what to do. I actually see a number of people feeling the opposite in having no idea what to do so I'm trying ot understand what's at the heart of this. Do you wish that the whims or aspirations were more in line with what you were trying to do? Do you find that ignoring any of the goals to do your own thing hampers your story? What do you think "overly task oriented" means? How do you think that's playing out?
In TS4 In order to move up in a career, of course it would make sense that a Sim needs to have a certain level of skill. But to add on "level 4 in 2 different skills" (skills that have little to do with the actual career, in my view) and "go to work in inspired mood" makes it kind of burdensome, for me, anyway. This was something that was in TS2 as well that I didn't really like (make have 10 friends to get a promotion, etc). Now, we also see it with the kids, which I brought up the kids earlier. It isn't enough for them to do their homework every day, but they also have to do extra credit so many times or level up a certain number of skills in order to not have a C. If they don't do like the game says, there's endless calls from the principal and they don't go beyond the 'satisfactory level'. It absolutely hampers my story if I ignore the goals. If my Sim child was an overachiever or a whiz kid or something, it would make more sense story wise and I would have made the conscious decision myself to complete those tasks, but to put that as a default for all the children is a little much. Never mind the fact that there's not enough time in the day to make sure their relationships with their families are on point and if they manage to have friends, as well as keep up with their needs.
Sure, I can do whatever I want with my Sims, but if I want them to go anywhere in life, I have complete the tasks as directed by the game. They are not simply opportunities that can be declined like they were in TS3.
I think the "whims" in the game can seem trivial compared to the wants and fears of Sims 2. Also, in Sims 2 you can see so much information at a glance, including the needs panel and the aspiration points. You have to go looking for that info in Sims 4, and you can't examine your Sims' needs/aspirations etc. when they are at work. So there are times when I feel there's nothing much to do.
Personally I like the new job system, but I'm finding it almost too easy to get promoted in Sims 4, and there's no need to have a job at all because you can just sell a few paintings. Bills haven't been a problem for me yet so I am looking for ways to make my Sim poorer.
It's also easy for her to kiss a few people etc. and achieve her romance aspiration goals. An attraction system would help so she had a reason to like one Sim over another. But overall I feel she has not enough challenge in her life. I know this conflicts with others' requests for less goal-oriented play.
It may(?) be that in the past it was harder to attend to a houseful of Sims' needs (food, comfort etc) and that made players feel they were working hard and succeeding, and so they didn't feel bad about paying less attention to more optional tasks like making friends for promotions etc.
Hi, SimGuruLyndsay, thank you for taking time out of your busy day. I will always respect those who have kept me entertained for fourteen years. As everyone knows I love the TS2 better than all of them. Here's some of my problem's with the TS4. I'm attached to some of the characters I created in the CAS. I enjoyed using that very much. (though I could use more male hairstyles) but once I put them in the game, I wasn't thrilled with the actual gameplay. The daily deal of having to go to work. Due mainly to the rpg/linear objectives. In TS2 of course we had to skill up Sims. That's fine since I could do that as I found time away from his or her busy social lives and drama. However, in TS4 that was about all I was able to accomplish was the goals, and I found them tedious, repetitive, and sort of boring. In past games my Sim was too busy dancing to my tune. I love Drama! And want more drama...lol. Like in TS2. I love those townies so much because Goopy or Benjamin never failed to amuse me when my Sim went out to community lots. Let me try to give you an example of why I was so connected to the TS2 Sim.
If I sent a Sim out to a community lot many of those loved interests might have shown up at one time. That was hilarious to me. What to do? The game offered so many ways to play that out for me. Keep my Sim's head low and not associate with any of them or go with the flow and let the game allow the other Sims to flirt with mine, and see what happened. My Sims were always in trouble. And I still laugh about how much trouble they could cause just by stepping out the door. TS2 still rocks. But a player had the choice, yes, a Sim might start up the flirting with my Sim and another Sim would become angry or even slap my Sim because of it..(love that) but I could also, just keep walking..lol..
I miss actual townies we all know by name. Actual townie character files like in the TS2. There was always someone we all loved to hate. It made us connect with our Sims and with each other in the community. So much has changed since then there really isn't a 'connection' to other players with a set of Sims we all love or hate, and we were always on the forums discussing what they had done next and we all knew who they were.
I also feel the Aspirations in this game doesn't help me connect to the actual Sim. No, it's just a set of goals I have to fill if I want to unlock content. That's not like the aspirations in TS2 where I cared if I filled it or not. There were reasons we picked certain ones, because it depended on the personality points, so we were connected to that Sim. Example Mr. Spock in my game is a knowledge Sim makes sense right, well, yes, and he wouldn't want to do anything outside of that type of personality (though I could make him if I wanted) that is freedom. In the TS4 it's just a set of unconnected objectives to gain rewards to help me make the game easier on myself.
I love this series. It's taken up more free time of mine than I care to admit. I want the Sims to be emotionally connected again to each other. Like know to console someone who is sad, know to worry when over a little kid who has just passed out on the floor from a lack of sleep, again. I don't know how you can do all that again without repeating TS2, but I really love the characters I created in the CAS but not so much the goals and or lack of connection they have to other Sims or me.
I loved it when the Sims looked up at the camera and frowned at me or rubbed their hands together, those were the best times sometimes, like yeah, let's do that! I love making it hard on some of them, just so I can see their reactions..TS2 still rocks! I think toddlers are important for me, too. If I played families I feel that is when I got attached to the Sim in the family and decided how they would live later, and how I wanted their life to go. At the toddler stage. I loved jumping around from house to house to progress each story in my head which then connected the entire hoods. My story, my way. The game offered so many surprises good and bad, that I was never bored and still not.
I wanted to love the TS4, because I really liked the CAS, and some of the objects in the game or great, and some of the multitasking is amazing, but the gameplay being so scripted just turned me off.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
@SimGuruLyndsay: Honestly Sims 4 is beyond rescue for me. As a successor for Sims 3 I expected improvement, not several steps backwards. I know Sims 4 cannot be changed to have an open world and more realistic graphics but maybe you can make a note for Sims 5:
- more realistic graphics (look at GTA V for PC for example)
- open world
- physics engine. Example: imagine a clumsy Sim being really clumsy and accidentally tossing a plate of Spaghetti into the face of another Sim. Depending on the positions of the Sims and the direction the plate flies it happens or not. This randomness which a physics engine grants makes scenarios unpredictable and exciting.
- Sims interactions like in Sims 2 (same care for the little details)
- CAST
- all lifestages
I would buy that in a heartbeat.
I'm sorry you think it's not salvageable I would like to understand a few things if you don't mind:
- Realistic graphics - I think it's important for Sims to NOT look too real. I think they live in their own "universe" and you are an onlooker. If they become *too* human you enter the uncanny valley and the things you do to (or with) them start to feel "icky" (for lack of a scientific word). However, I understand how passionate our CC community is about this and am constantly impressed by their creations.
- I hear "open world" a lot and of course on the surface I understand that nobody likes loads. But what are you looking for in your "play style"? Do you miss following your Sims around town? Is it the managing multiple Sims in multiple places? Is it larger spaces? There are actually a bunch of choices developers COULD make to address these problems in different ways if we understand the underlying need.
- Physics - your'e right, this is probably a bridge too far for the Sims. but could be interesting for sure!
- "Interactions like in the Sims 2" - could you give me some examples? There are actually a TON more details in some of our interactions than ever before - I know you're tired of hearing us trumpet "emotion!" but in reality I think the detail in facial expression, the changes in social interactions as you move through a conversation - these are details to me. What do you mean though? What are you looking for?
- CASt - we've talked about this at length in various other places on the forums - is color the important part for you? or patterns? is it just matching your wood tones or something more? It's hard to respond to just "CASt" so I want to learn more.
- Lifestages - even on this thread I've talked about that a lot. I understand.
Thank you again - I'm truly very interested in learning more about what you mean and what you are feeling that underly these issues for you.
I really hope you can turn this around for players like me @SimGuruLyndsay and I appreciate you coming in and reading this stuff. The reason the people like me who are disappointed are here is because the sims is such a huge part of our lives.
I've played since day one and I genuinely feel heartbroken that my play style has been ditched in favour of 'drama' as was Rachel's idea of sims4.
Some of us like to have nice peaceful happy lives for our sims-we invest time in them because we love them and we want them to do well in life. I really don't want my soul mates in the sims to be cheating, or fighting etc in the sims because there's enough nastiness in every day life as it is and I just don't enjoy that sort of game. I don't want to watch sims I control to be heartbroken through my actions just to watch 'drama'. I find it hard enough watching my sims mourn loved ones along with me!
Some of us use sims as an escape from every day life and it's heartbreaking to me that I've supported the game and contributed to sims success in the absolute fortune I've invested in your game over the years (seriously it scares me how much!) and I'm making an impassioned plea to please try to improve things for family players like me who loved toddlers, tracking my sims family trees and the amazing things we've seen in previous games with family interaction (like bathing babies in sinks, toddlers in baths, great interactions between all life states) it's just such a huge disappointment because it's hardly a really obscure play style to want to play through legacies.
I hand you a little bit of trust now I've seen you address us and I truly hope you can make us all fall in love with sims like you've done in previous games. Give us freedom to show you how awesome your games can be!
I think you might be misinterpreting what Rachel may have meant by "drama" - we definitely dont' sit down and just brainstorm ways to make scandal and heartbreak required parts of the game BUT we do want to provide tools to push stories in that direction IF YOU CHOOSE. But I can respect your interpretation. I think what I'm hearing is that you are longing for a deeper, more meaningful generation/family/legacy game. You're right, that is not an obscure play style at all! We did invest in trying to make children have MORE to do with special skills and objects, giving babies more interactions like peeking into the crib or breastfeeding BUT you are right, we haven't been able to get that deep connective tissue to come through. I myself have seen it be more (and less) successful in previous games too. You certainly aren't alone in wanting that, I was talking about it with SimGuruShannon just yesterday. I can assure you families and generations are important to what I consider the core of the Sims - that progression through life is near and dear to us.
If generations are seen as so important, why did you cut out the very heart of generations from the game -- family tree, story progression, and an entire life stage? Did anyone ask for this? I have a VERY hard time believing it.
I think you represent a very common point of view - you seem to also want the depth of families & social relationships. I think it's interesting that you think TS4 is telling you what to do. I actually see a number of people feeling the opposite in having no idea what to do so I'm trying ot understand what's at the heart of this. Do you wish that the whims or aspirations were more in line with what you were trying to do? Do you find that ignoring any of the goals to do your own thing hampers your story? What do you think "overly task oriented" means? How do you think that's playing out?
Another thanks from me! It's great to know someone is listening.
Sims 4 overwhelmed me the first time through. I don't know why, but in previous games I could ignore a want, but in Sims 4 I feel compelled to grant as many of them as are wanted. (I know there is different terminology now, but that's the way I still think of them.) Maybe it's the interface. Maybe it's that huge picture of your active sim's reactions/emotions, maybe it's because every little step along the way to a goal is dictated (e.g., do X step and Y step and Z step before you gain the aspiration rather than accomplish long-term goal and go about it your own way).
I've learned to ignore the wishes a little better, but I still find myself rushing to fulfill them more than actually playing. It reminds me of my first attempt of the Sims app when I got my smart phone. I was excited to try it, but the first thing I had to do was befriend a dog I didn't want and jump through hoops to meet goals. That was absolutely no fun for me, so I deleted the app.
It also troubles me that features that were present in past base games are absent. (I don't specifically mean toddlers. Despite my avatar I have never been a huge toddler fan. I don't yet have any Sims 4 screenshots and couldn't find where photos of my sims are stored.) Anyway, I know EA is a business and they stay solvent by making money. I can't shake the feeling that one way they'll make money is to make us pay for things that earlier games offered from the get-go.
From what I've gathered the people who are most disappointed with The Sims 4 want toddlers. They want the game to recognize great grand parents for their legacies. They want a family tree. There is nothing for these types of players in The Sims 4.
Please don't interpret this as me trying to stir up controversy but I'm genuinely curious - do "toddlers" simply represent "full lifestages" or, as I've hypothesized in other responses here - do they simply represent a feeling of lack of deep family gameplay? Is it because you want those "teaching" moments?
I would love to see a discussion on what YOU think is really, truly at the heart of the Sims. I talk about it all of the time, but maybe, as you seem to suspect, I just really don't know any more.
To me, Sims is about playing out lifestyles the way you want to. I played TS1, but I really connected with TS2 because there was so much depth to the game play. Sure, there wasn't an open world, but that was made up for by the countless interactions and family/interpersonal dynamics you could work with. It had something for ever kind of player -- builders, legacy players, challenge oriented players, etc. If you had a single Sim, there was loads to do. If you had a Sim with a family, there was loads to do. It didn't so overwhelmingly go in one direction so countless methods of game play could be fulfilled in so many different ways. For example, I looove throwing parties for my Sims. It's a legitimate art that can be perfected, especially in Sims 2. And that's just one area of the game play. I also love building up my Sims' relationships with family members -- aunts, uncles, cousins. Throwing family reunions (which were acknowledged in TS2 btw) and keeping those ties close. In TS3, it was fun to have my sims obtain gems from all over the world and hand them down through the family. Those are examples of the depth I'm talking about. Sims to me is playing out lives, you know? Fulfilling my god complex. And that's hard to do when the game play is being geared too much in one direction (like with the whole supernatural/in the future/ fantasy thing with TS3) and when the game is basically telling you how to play (the overly task oriented game play that seems to have been implemented in TS4 as discussed).
I'm glad you guys are listening and I really hope that the dissatisfaction is nipped in the bud sooner rather than 6 EPs from now.
Thanks for checking in on us.
I think you represent a very common point of view - you seem to also want the depth of families & social relationships. I think it's interesting that you think TS4 is telling you what to do. I actually see a number of people feeling the opposite in having no idea what to do so I'm trying ot understand what's at the heart of this. Do you wish that the whims or aspirations were more in line with what you were trying to do? Do you find that ignoring any of the goals to do your own thing hampers your story? What do you think "overly task oriented" means? How do you think that's playing out?
Anavastia had an idea of this that is growing on me, and which might satisfy the kind of play @Constance wants. We had a good discussion going, but the thread was closed inexplicably (to me, at least). The basic idea was that career aspirations would replace lifetime aspirations so that a variety of things you did contributed toward the goal. You wouldn't have specific tasks you focused on that reduced the time you had to explore other parts of the game, but a career meter so completing your aspirations (even if they didn't seem directly career related) would count toward your career.
Im going to try and explain traits in a better way green. and im sorry because so much fighting is going on in this thread that i feel my idea will be lost here because people are so fixed on being right and wrong these days that we aren't just hearing the whole point. Some players lost their playstyle the game is no longer enjoyable and they are looking to ea to solve it.
Anyway i choose this method of letting EA know what is wrong and what they can add in to solve it.
Traits as a whole are too small a choice. You need to divide up the traits into categories. I called them trait trees. So personality traits, talent traits, and attraction traits are what i feel we should do.
I want to break the traits from the aspiration choices. Meaning your traits don't determine your aspiration choice you the player do. I've long thought that about the game that working for a company doesn't mean you need to have a certain personality trait to succeed. I feel what talents should do is create opportunities yes, but not govern quests line. I want to bring the aspirations out a different way.
That is soley attach them to the career. That means you can be any type of sim and aspire to that career. What that does is let's say i want to work in business but im artistic as a talent. Than my career will branch me towards graphic artist maybe. Obviously the more i improve my artskill the better chances i will be promoted. I can do other things in the branch to help, for business. This is where you break up the repetitive play with careers. Simmers can hold parties and use that towards their careers, fundraising, host exhibits, advertising, do hands on work like researching or snooping, even criminals can do work like robbing, sabatoging, hostile take overs, etc. What ever branch you go in this career you aren't bound by your trait to that asipiration. What i think breaks this play up is when you start to tie the career into the play. Take your boss out to lunch, host a business party, organize work out session for your team, shopping, finding collections, playing mini games, etc. I want players to really not do the same thing over and over but break up their own play when working hours start. I want to get rid of the questing and create play where you the player have more control. I hope this made more sense?
What i mean is not elminate tasks but eliminate them as quests. So what i mean is take the system of questing out. Gather 3 of this and i'll give you a bonus. Actually what i was proposing is what we've had all along promotion bar. The thing though, players can lose the promotion and the bare can go down as well as up. hense you can be demoted as well. What im getting as is instead of having it i go to work 5 days a week and count 3,000 beans. I do things outside my required job to earn the promotion. hense all the things above like parties, etc. Fail the party and i fail at getting that promotion. it's not a task push system. In other words this is a system the player controls
Yes i am suggesting it's time to hit the skill points where they succeed and fail. Bars climb up they should fall down. What that does is create challenge. That challenge does not have to be boring and the fail can come from different effects. Such as being electricuted doing a handy job. Breaking an item when trying to fix it. Dropping a weight on your foot causing your muscles to weaken some because you had to go tot he hospital. I'm also saying with bonuses and rewards should come pay cuts, lost vacation, over time, etc as a fail when players make wrong moves, make other sims mad, or get caught. This still fits with simulation play. It still creates direction that simmers can set for themselves that need to have direction in their play. yet open up avenues of play where players are not cookiecuttered into the rpg play. I think that is where all the problem is.
@Anavastia, if you're reading, maybe you could open this topic up again since it's your idea, it would be a shame for it to get scrapped because of a bit of bickering, and I think I and @Cinebar at least had more to say on the topic. I bet you did, too.
Even better might be to get a moderator to eliminate the offending post(s) and reopen that thread, or patch together that conversation and start a new thread because I think it was a worthwhile discussion.
I too feel that TS4 is too far gone and cannot be changed enough to lure me in as a player -- and I've bought and played The Sims, TS2, TS3, and more expansion packs than I want to add up. What I wanted TS4 to be was the best of TS2 plus the best of TS3, with updated graphics like we saw in The Sims Medieval. TSM was a beautiful-looking game but ultimately boring because of the linear play and rabbit-hole quests.
First of all is the art style. This is 2014 and many of us have gaming computers. Why does TS4 look like Candy Crush on Facebook? The chunky graphics, the plastic hair, and the Disney Princess colors are a huge turnoff for a PC game, unless you're five years old. (Oddly enough, if it was a $5.99 iPad game, I might have bought it for my inner child.)
The closed world and loading screens are a step backwards. The extreme clipping, if that's your answer to routing problems, is laughable. The chant of "Emotions, emotions, emotions," turned out to be basically fluff. I could go on and on but feel others have better stated the problems for those of us who want a full-fledged life simulation game without RPG elements.
P.S. Edited to add that I abhor the Origin requirement and the fact that once the game's code is activated, you cannot resell your game if you so choose.
I'm another "family" player. No matter how I start a game, I inevitably end up playing "happy families," albeit often struggling ones, and it becomes a story for me, just in my own head. I guess it's a bit like those multigenerational family saga novels. Sims 4 is very much "my" style so far: the Sims' interactions really suit my play style, and the RPG-ish elements -- the goals etc. -- are harder, which in a sense makes them more lifelike. (Who gets a promotion or a raise for just managing to show up vaguely on time most of the time? Not most of us!) So far, Sims 4 is working for my kind of storytelling, for the most part. I think that at this point what I'm looking for is that anything "drama"-focused appear by my choice: I'd like to be able to have on/off toggles in-game for things like particular supernatural types or certain kinds of death, for example, so I can make my game more or realistic-ish on my own terms. Say, I want witches but not ghosts, and death by laughter but not embarrassment. So that I can shape the genre of my story, in a sense.
And I'm also concerned with how things grow when I play my story long-term, over many generations. Sometimes I like to micromanage my world, taking over the Sims who appear in it, and sometimes I like to deal with whoever's there by chance -- two different kinds of storytelling, in a way. In the first, I'm the omniscient storyteller controlling the whole world; in the second, I'm more first-person, discovering it. For the first, I'd love to be able to select Sims from my Library as those the game will draw on to place as unplayed Sims in the world -- kind of micromanaging in advance: setting things up without having to be in Manage Households to do it as regularly. For the second style, I just want the townie/unplayed generation and culling to work to fill more homes, make a more varied and balanced town (so many single-Sim households!), and not take away Sims I've met; SimGuruHolms said today that you guys are working on that, so I'm happy.
Re. those goal aspects. I think they don't bother me because (a) I know I can always use a mod to unlock stuff eventually if I really want to, (b) I actually don't want most of my Sims to achieve top of their profession or everything they aspire to or top of a skill, and I like knowing that there's things those Sims won't have as a result of being kind of average rather than exceptional. Even things like the secret venues: I have a Sim now who might get into one, but only because she's the kind of person who might, eventually, have looked at that tree a lot. Until I have a Sim who really "wants" to do that, I'm happy not to see it myself. But I can understand that for other kinds of players, their way of storytelling in the game is different from mine and they might want access to things earlier, and for the game itself to give that to them: a toggle for them, the way I want one to turn off certain kinds of beings or events.
Maybe we're all just a bit spoiled by having had three iterations of the game so far, heading slightly different ways, to open up so many kinds of gameplay. It's easy to want it all now, and we naturally all think we should be central kind of player for development. I know I do
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If generations are seen as so important, why did you cut out the very heart of generations from the game -- family tree, story progression, and an entire life stage? Did anyone ask for this? I have a VERY hard time believing it.
No - you are right. We did not have people write in a say - please cut out all this stuff. Of course not. We DO value families - we focused on interesting relationships, special age interactions & age to age interactions, more content for the ages to enjoy or pursue, we did cool things with genetics. We DID make family important. What I take away though is - for you and other players like this - we picked the wrong part of families and we misunderstood your need.
Hi all - this is a really interesting (if not difficult) thread to read being a developer on the Sims 4 team. You are clearly passionate about The Sims, which I genuinely appreciate. I wish I could answer each of these individually but you are already debating much of the challenges we encounter as developers as well. There is a very difficult balance in building everything YOU have asked for, creating a cohesive foundation experience and meeting deadlines (everybody has them) - sometimes that doesn't result in what we expect and we have to adapt. We make the best decisions we can with whatever information we have at the time. I hope you give us the benefit of the doubt that we are truly invested in continuing to grow The Sims. I have been working on the Sims for 12 years, I LOVE this game. I started on Sims 1, moved to Sims 2 and worked on the Sims 3 before leading The Sims 4. The Sims has become a huge experience over the years and has exceedingly high expectations of "what makes it the Sims" - you have all embraced it and made it your own in so many ways that it is virtually impossible for us to accommodate completely. That doesn't mean we don't try and that we don't talk about it constantly. We will try and engage you in everything we can as early as we can. Please keep talking to us, we are here. We are working very hard, every day, with you in our minds to keep The Sims, The Sims. I would love to see a discussion on what YOU think is really, truly at the heart of the Sims. I talk about it all of the time, but maybe, as you seem to suspect, I just really don't know any more. I am always open to being corrected and learning something new. Thank you for challenging us, I hope you see us rise to meet it.
SimguruLyndsay, Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to this thread. As you might have noticed there are many of us who are unhappy with the direction The Sims 4 is going. Speaking for myself, I can say the true heart of the Sims has always been it's ability to have players connect with thier sims. The bond a player formed with thier sims was something very special. You watched them live, love, cry, and shared in every joy, and every moment of sadness. Players like myself, had our sims marry, have children, and watch them grow, love and learn. Our options were only limited by our own imagination.
Sims 4 is a very goal oriented game. Completing these goals leaves no time for our sims to enjoy each other. A parent coming home and playing with thier child before dinner, instead both parent and child have a list of things they need to do. Parents spending some romantic time together, after getting the kids to bed. Again, there is no time left for these things, either they are to tierd, or they have something else they need to do. Some people say that we should just ignore those things. The problem with that is if you don't do these things, a percentage of the game is locked away from you. The gameplay itself has become very linear. The goal and reward system in the game, is far from the only problem. With the exclusion of toddlers, and a family tree, and babies being stuck to a bassinet, legacy and generational players like myself, have had our way to play ripped out of the game. Some people say we need to adapt. I have spent 14 years playing The Sims the same way, the way I enjoy playing, the playstyle that made me fall in love with the sims. I see no reason to change my play style, to something I wouldn't enjoy as much, simply to buy a new game. To expect fans to just throw away everything they loved about the game, is just asking to much.
You said you tried to build the game that everyone asked for. I don't know anybody who asked for any of this. I remember reading and asking about more interactions for all age groups, more family things in the game. Ironically it seems that Sims 4 has gone in the opposite direction, of what people I know, and myself actually wanted. I do know there are some who like the goal oriented style. No one I know, but I do know there are some on these forums. I am not against goals in game, as long as they are optional, without penalty if you choose not to do them. Sims 4 takes away from players having any options, when in the past, the options were almost limitless. Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I also hope you all can rise to meet our challenge. Until then, I will continue to play with my Sims 2 and 3.
Edited to add paragraphs to my wall of text....
I agree with Jules and Cyron on this matter really. TS4 has zero appeal to me at this time.
It's quite drop from the top, so how ya feeling down there?
Re. toddlers? I didn't care about them being left out till after I started playing Sims 4. The toddlers in Sims 3 didn't feel like real toddlers to me, and the activities with them often felt unnatural (e.g., teaching to talk -- that just happens, it's not an active act of teaching). So I would age them right up. My play tended to centre on the adult stages of life, not on young people, in Sims 3 because they were the interesting ones. But the children in Sims 4 have me wanting toddlers because I feel like the developers and designers who made children vivid could do a great job with all the life stages that didn't feel right to me before. I'd love that baby to age into a true toddler/preschooler, and I think the team could make that lifestage awesome, so that Sims 4 could be a full cradle-to-grave game.
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Hi all - this is a really interesting (if not difficult) thread to read being a developer on the Sims 4 team. You are clearly passionate about The Sims, which I genuinely appreciate. I wish I could answer each of these individually but you are already debating much of the challenges we encounter as developers as well. There is a very difficult balance in building everything YOU have asked for, creating a cohesive foundation experience and meeting deadlines (everybody has them) - sometimes that doesn't result in what we expect and we have to adapt. We make the best decisions we can with whatever information we have at the time. I hope you give us the benefit of the doubt that we are truly invested in continuing to grow The Sims. I have been working on the Sims for 12 years, I LOVE this game. I started on Sims 1, moved to Sims 2 and worked on the Sims 3 before leading The Sims 4. The Sims has become a huge experience over the years and has exceedingly high expectations of "what makes it the Sims" - you have all embraced it and made it your own in so many ways that it is virtually impossible for us to accommodate completely. That doesn't mean we don't try and that we don't talk about it constantly. We will try and engage you in everything we can as early as we can. Please keep talking to us, we are here. We are working very hard, every day, with you in our minds to keep The Sims, The Sims. I would love to see a discussion on what YOU think is really, truly at the heart of the Sims. I talk about it all of the time, but maybe, as you seem to suspect, I just really don't know any more. I am always open to being corrected and learning something new. Thank you for challenging us, I hope you see us rise to meet it.
SimguruLyndsay, Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to this thread. As you might have noticed there are many of us who are unhappy with the direction The Sims 4 is going. Speaking for myself, I can say the true heart of the Sims has always been it's ability to have players connect with thier sims. The bond a player formed with thier sims was something very special. You watched them live, love, cry, and shared in every joy, and every moment of sadness. Players like myself, had our sims marry, have children, and watch them grow, love and learn. Our options were only limited by our own imagination.
Sims 4 is a very goal oriented game. Completing these goals leaves no time for our sims to enjoy each other. A parent coming home and playing with thier child before dinner, instead both parent and child have a list of things they need to do. Parents spending some romantic time together, after getting the kids to bed. Again, there is no time left for these things, either they are to tierd, or they have something else they need to do. Some people say that we should just ignore those things. The problem with that is if you don't do these things, a percentage of the game is locked away from you. The gameplay itself has become very linear. The goal and reward system in the game, is far from the only problem. With the exclusion of toddlers, and a family tree, and babies being stuck to a bassinet, legacy and generational players like myself, have had our way to play ripped out of the game. Some people say we need to adapt. I have spent 14 years playing The Sims the same way, the way I enjoy playing, the playstyle that made me fall in love with the sims. I see no reason to change my play style, to something I wouldn't enjoy as much, simply to buy a new game. To expect fans to just throw away everything they loved about the game, is just asking to much.
You said you tried to build the game that everyone asked for. I don't know anybody who asked for any of this. I remember reading and asking about more interactions for all age groups, more family things in the game. Ironically it seems that Sims 4 has gone in the opposite direction, of what people I know, and myself actually wanted. I do know there are some who like the goal oriented style. No one I know, but I do know there are some on these forums. I am not against goals in game, as long as they are optional, without penalty if you choose not to do them. Sims 4 takes away from players having any options, when in the past, the options were almost limitless. Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I also hope you all can rise to meet our challenge. Until then, I will continue to play with my Sims 2 and 3.
Edited to add paragraphs to my wall of text....
Thank you for this thoughtful explanation - a couple interesting things jump out at me. First though, I'm sorry you feel we changed everything out from under you and I understand that point of view. I hope you can see the promise and see sparks of things that might excite you. As I mentioned above what I think you're looking for is a deeper connective tissue between your families, legacy, genetics - more ways for that to matter. I do think we didn't achieve what we wanted to there or what the Sims 4 is capable of. You also point out that people were asking for more interactions for ages and more family things in game - I actually think we DID do this but because you don't have the first thing (the connection and meaning of those actions) it still feels shallow. What I think a lesson for me is - things to do isn't the only thing you care about. Those things have to add up to something - they have to matter and that is just important as having the things in the first place.
The goals aspect of this comment is interesting as well. I think of the goals as ideas of WHAT I could do but I never play to them only (that is just my style). I can see why some people say "ignore them" but I'm curious why that feels wrong to you? Do you mean you feel compelled to accomplish career goals for example becuase you want to unlock a new stove? Or do you mean the aspiration goals? We actually "lock away" a pretty little amount when it comes down to it because we want you to be able to sandbox BUT give you something to work towards if you choose too. We've had version of goals & rewards in the past (TS2 & TS3 gated content behind achieving things)- what feels different about them in TS4?
Thank you for responding. I feel you understand the playstyle and family issues very well. As for the goal system, let me try to elaborate. I do not feel compelled to complete goals, just for the sake of completing them. You always had to earn skills, or have a friend requirement for careers. This is fine. In Sims 4, there is more that has to be done in order to advance in your career, or school. I personaly like to have my sims advance,and for my children to do well. I just don't want that to be thier "life". I want them to actually be able to have the time to live a life, before the reaper appears. As for the locked content, it would be content that I paid for, that I have no access to, unless I complete said goals. That hardly seems fair, considering my playstyle. Objects in buy mode should not be locked away. There should be a reward for those who choose to complete goals, but that reward should be seperate from just "regular" gameplay items. What if I really like that stove?
Aspiration goals have always been there. I do try to help my Sims reach that aspiration. It's like thier own little personal achievement. There have been versions of goals and achievements before. They just never felt as " in your face," as the ones in Sims 4. They always felt optional, now they no longer do.
From what I've gathered the people who are most disappointed with The Sims 4 want toddlers. They want the game to recognize great grand parents for their legacies. They want a family tree. There is nothing for these types of players in The Sims 4.
Please don't interpret this as me trying to stir up controversy but I'm genuinely curious - do "toddlers" simply represent "full lifestages" or, as I've hypothesized in other responses here - do they simply represent a feeling of lack of deep family gameplay? Is it because you want those "teaching" moments?
Hi SimGuruLyndsay, thank you for taking the time out to communicate with us!
Personally for me, no toddlers means: the development of a sim doesn't flow in a way that feels comfortable, or in a way that makes sense to my brain. From baby to child feels like an empty and unsatisfying experience. The toddler stage feels warm, it feels like its the time when mother/father and toddler really bond and can teach their offspring. I feel Sims 3 did this quite well.
Also as you say, the depth of gameplay isn't there. It feels at the moment like the early years for a sim don't matter, when in fact, they matter a great deal. I guess I'm more of a legacy player than anything else, and I like to experience the generations of my sims to their fullest extent. I don't feel I can do that right now. The family tree is also a must here as well.
I think the "whims" in the game can seem trivial compared to the wants and fears of Sims 2. Also, in Sims 2 you can see so much information at a glance, including the needs panel and the aspiration points. You have to go looking for that info in Sims 4, and you can't examine your Sims' needs/aspirations etc. when they are at work. So there are times when I feel there's nothing much to do.
Personally I like the new job system, but I'm finding it almost too easy to get promoted in Sims 4, and there's no need to have a job at all because you can just sell a few paintings. Bills haven't been a problem for me yet so I am looking for ways to make my Sim poorer.
It's also easy for her to kiss a few people etc. and achieve her romance aspiration goals. An attraction system would help so she had a reason to like one Sim over another. But overall I feel she has not enough challenge in her life. I know this conflicts with others' requests for less goal-oriented play.
It may(?) be that in the past it was harder to attend to a houseful of Sims' needs (food, comfort etc) and that made players feel they were working hard and succeeding, and so they didn't feel bad about paying less attention to more optional tasks like making friends for promotions etc.
Interesting observation - we wanted the whims to feel like little "tidbits" to kick you off down different paths. Not being able to see the panels is something we really don't like either (and want to change). An attraction system would be interesting, especially with the different factors that could be at play for each Sim.
I am one of the Simmers who's for the most part, very happy with Sims 4. That being said I do understand many of my fellow Simmers gripes on the other side of the fence.
For me, here are the issues I feel are providing a large founding of troubles that I believe/hope you and your team will look into improving/solving completely.
1) You took us from an open world (that admittedly had it's share of issues/performance problems) to a very closed-in, insular feeling world. While my load screens are quick, they are also very jarring. Even if open world is no longer in the cards for Sims 4 (I can deal with this) you will, IMO, go a long way to appeasing folks if you can find a way to carve out/streamline some of the over-abundance OF load screens present. For example, that load screen just to visit a house IN the same neighborhood lot? That needs to go. Why are the community lots segregated by load screens? They should also be one smooth connected group.
2) Multi-Sim control. This ties into #1 - switching between Sims when on different lots can be VERY irritating since if you are wanting to manage say, 3 Sims working on various projects, this means slamming yourself into load screens every 30 secs depending on how fast you're swapping around. It's very jarring and really needs to have a more elegant solution.
3) Toddlers/Teens - I'm baking these 2 in together, though they are different in why I'm bringing them up. For toddlers, the jump from baby to child for people who love legacies or just the family life in general was kind of a rough one. I'm personally not someone who spends a ton of time in the toddler phase, but having something that has been such a crucial staple IN the development cycle of a Sim being pulled for a deadline is not something that encourages confidence in the fans. If someone at the top of the chain is pushing you to do this, they need to be enlightened that having a bit of time to ensure these critical elements to the fans remain in. I raise the Teen point only because the whole drama over animations being shared aka why the Teen is the same height/VERY similar to a Young Adult. This isn't a deal breaker for me but as you consider changes to existing elements, I would humbly suggest finding a way to differentiate them a bit more either via height and/or some appearance tweaks would be most welcome.
4) Pools/other "lesser" items missing/expected to return - the whole Kotaku article about a Guru explaining that pools were "hard" caused a big amount of resentment. While I very much have always regarded pools as a "side diversion", the abject removal of them from the game coupled with "They are too hard to code well" statement sort of just blew a few minds. A better explanation or even statement about their potential future would be helpful. I expect they'll return and hopefully in much better form with more interactions (Cannonballs? Water gun fights? Oh prz yes) but this also begs the point, what are we going to be expected to pay to enjoy this now?
5) CASt - this may seem like a "small" thing but it goes without saying that giving players control over how all their things look, from furniture to clothes should never be understated and I sincerely hope you return this to us. Especially w/o a price tag attached to do it if possible.
6) Freebies - I understand that you all need to make a living and that Maxis/EA is a business at the end of the day. But it can never be understated that "Thank you for being fan" freebies go a long way to making us feel like our money/faith/time is well spent. I'm not talking about "Give us a free EP yo!" as much as, once you figure out dishwashers? Throw em our way without a price tag
Mahalos again for your time and I am anxious to see what develops. At the end of the day despite my grumps, I am enjoying Sims 4 immensely as well as talking to fellow fans here.
In TS4 In order to move up in a career, of course it would make sense that a Sim needs to have a certain level of skill. But to add on "level 4 in 2 different skills" (skills that have little to do with the actual career, in my view) and "go to work in inspired mood" makes it kind of burdensome, for me, anyway. This was something that was in TS2 as well that I didn't really like (make have 10 friends to get a promotion, etc). Now, we also see it with the kids, which I brought up the kids earlier. It isn't enough for them to do their homework every day, but they also have to do extra credit so many times or level up a certain number of skills in order to not have a C. If they don't do like the game says, there's endless calls from the principal and they don't go beyond the 'satisfactory level'. It absolutely hampers my story if I ignore the goals. If my Sim child was an overachiever or a whiz kid or something, it would make more sense story wise and I would have made the conscious decision myself to complete those tasks, but to put that as a default for all the children is a little much. Never mind the fact that there's not enough time in the day to make sure their relationships with their families are on point and if they manage to have friends, as well as keep up with their needs.
Sure, I can do whatever I want with my Sims, but if I want them to go anywhere in life, I have complete the tasks as directed by the game. They are not simply opportunities that can be declined like they were in TS3.
Thank you for explaining - that makes a lot of sense.
From what I've gathered the people who are most disappointed with The Sims 4 want toddlers. They want the game to recognize great grand parents for their legacies. They want a family tree. There is nothing for these types of players in The Sims 4.
Please don't interpret this as me trying to stir up controversy but I'm genuinely curious - do "toddlers" simply represent "full lifestages" or, as I've hypothesized in other responses here - do they simply represent a feeling of lack of deep family gameplay? Is it because you want those "teaching" moments?
Myself personally I've always skipped the toddler life stage because I had no interest in it. However, I do feel that it's a bit jarring to age up a baby into a ten year old child. Those who did enjoy playing those moments are devastated by it.
Yes I think jarring is a good word. It feels like there is a gap, a hole where there should be a happy, bouncy toddler. Please, I beg you Maxis, give players toddlers again.
Thank you all for engaging in a really thought provoking conversation - I appreciate your candor and honesty - I'm sorry I can't spend more time on digging into all of this with you. Unfortunately I've hidden in my cube avoiding e-mail and meetings for too long and have to run away for now. I couldn't answer everything but THANK YOU THANK YOU for answering me and providing your thoughts. I'll be back tomorrow and I'm sure we'll have loads more to discuss.
Hello @SimGuruLyndsay thank you for joining this thread. I suspect you are about to be swamped with posts! @JULES1111 has provided a very good explanation of the issues that some simmers face over TS4. I am going to add a couple more which is the loss of Open World and CASt.
I appreciate the inclusion of these features in TS4 is highly unlikely but would like them reconsidered for TS5. In the meantime I will be staying with TS3 and hope EA will continue to support this version of the game for as long as possible.
Finally (as you worked on TS3) if you were at all involved with Sunlit Tides and Hidden Springs thank you for your work. They are most beautiful and a pleasure to play and build in
I no longer use Origin or My Page. You can find me on YouTube or Twitter as Bettyboop711000. You are welcome to contact me as I explore options for a PC sandbox life simulation game.
Wherever I am friends call me Betty
Comments
Thank you! I understand and i will wait and see this Sims 4 improving
Thank you for this thoughtful explanation - a couple interesting things jump out at me. First though, I'm sorry you feel we changed everything out from under you and I understand that point of view. I hope you can see the promise and see sparks of things that might excite you. As I mentioned above what I think you're looking for is a deeper connective tissue between your families, legacy, genetics - more ways for that to matter. I do think we didn't achieve what we wanted to there or what the Sims 4 is capable of. You also point out that people were asking for more interactions for ages and more family things in game - I actually think we DID do this but because you don't have the first thing (the connection and meaning of those actions) it still feels shallow. What I think a lesson for me is - things to do isn't the only thing you care about. Those things have to add up to something - they have to matter and that is just important as having the things in the first place.
The goals aspect of this comment is interesting as well. I think of the goals as ideas of WHAT I could do but I never play to them only (that is just my style). I can see why some people say "ignore them" but I'm curious why that feels wrong to you? Do you mean you feel compelled to accomplish career goals for example becuase you want to unlock a new stove? Or do you mean the aspiration goals? We actually "lock away" a pretty little amount when it comes down to it because we want you to be able to sandbox BUT give you something to work towards if you choose too. We've had version of goals & rewards in the past (TS2 & TS3 gated content behind achieving things)- what feels different about them in TS4?
In TS4 In order to move up in a career, of course it would make sense that a Sim needs to have a certain level of skill. But to add on "level 4 in 2 different skills" (skills that have little to do with the actual career, in my view) and "go to work in inspired mood" makes it kind of burdensome, for me, anyway. This was something that was in TS2 as well that I didn't really like (make have 10 friends to get a promotion, etc). Now, we also see it with the kids, which I brought up the kids earlier. It isn't enough for them to do their homework every day, but they also have to do extra credit so many times or level up a certain number of skills in order to not have a C. If they don't do like the game says, there's endless calls from the principal and they don't go beyond the 'satisfactory level'. It absolutely hampers my story if I ignore the goals. If my Sim child was an overachiever or a whiz kid or something, it would make more sense story wise and I would have made the conscious decision myself to complete those tasks, but to put that as a default for all the children is a little much. Never mind the fact that there's not enough time in the day to make sure their relationships with their families are on point and if they manage to have friends, as well as keep up with their needs.
Sure, I can do whatever I want with my Sims, but if I want them to go anywhere in life, I have complete the tasks as directed by the game. They are not simply opportunities that can be declined like they were in TS3.
Although those shoes affect your step , don't forget whose legs you're on...
Personally I like the new job system, but I'm finding it almost too easy to get promoted in Sims 4, and there's no need to have a job at all because you can just sell a few paintings. Bills haven't been a problem for me yet so I am looking for ways to make my Sim poorer.
It's also easy for her to kiss a few people etc. and achieve her romance aspiration goals. An attraction system would help so she had a reason to like one Sim over another. But overall I feel she has not enough challenge in her life. I know this conflicts with others' requests for less goal-oriented play.
It may(?) be that in the past it was harder to attend to a houseful of Sims' needs (food, comfort etc) and that made players feel they were working hard and succeeding, and so they didn't feel bad about paying less attention to more optional tasks like making friends for promotions etc.
If I sent a Sim out to a community lot many of those loved interests might have shown up at one time. That was hilarious to me. What to do? The game offered so many ways to play that out for me. Keep my Sim's head low and not associate with any of them or go with the flow and let the game allow the other Sims to flirt with mine, and see what happened. My Sims were always in trouble. And I still laugh about how much trouble they could cause just by stepping out the door. TS2 still rocks. But a player had the choice, yes, a Sim might start up the flirting with my Sim and another Sim would become angry or even slap my Sim because of it..(love that) but I could also, just keep walking..lol..
I miss actual townies we all know by name. Actual townie character files like in the TS2. There was always someone we all loved to hate. It made us connect with our Sims and with each other in the community. So much has changed since then there really isn't a 'connection' to other players with a set of Sims we all love or hate, and we were always on the forums discussing what they had done next and we all knew who they were.
I also feel the Aspirations in this game doesn't help me connect to the actual Sim. No, it's just a set of goals I have to fill if I want to unlock content. That's not like the aspirations in TS2 where I cared if I filled it or not. There were reasons we picked certain ones, because it depended on the personality points, so we were connected to that Sim. Example Mr. Spock in my game is a knowledge Sim makes sense right, well, yes, and he wouldn't want to do anything outside of that type of personality (though I could make him if I wanted) that is freedom. In the TS4 it's just a set of unconnected objectives to gain rewards to help me make the game easier on myself.
I love this series. It's taken up more free time of mine than I care to admit. I want the Sims to be emotionally connected again to each other. Like know to console someone who is sad, know to worry when over a little kid who has just passed out on the floor from a lack of sleep, again. I don't know how you can do all that again without repeating TS2, but I really love the characters I created in the CAS but not so much the goals and or lack of connection they have to other Sims or me.
I loved it when the Sims looked up at the camera and frowned at me or rubbed their hands together, those were the best times sometimes, like yeah, let's do that! I love making it hard on some of them, just so I can see their reactions..TS2 still rocks! I think toddlers are important for me, too. If I played families I feel that is when I got attached to the Sim in the family and decided how they would live later, and how I wanted their life to go. At the toddler stage. I loved jumping around from house to house to progress each story in my head which then connected the entire hoods. My story, my way. The game offered so many surprises good and bad, that I was never bored and still not.
I wanted to love the TS4, because I really liked the CAS, and some of the objects in the game or great, and some of the multitasking is amazing, but the gameplay being so scripted just turned me off.
I'm sorry you think it's not salvageable
- Realistic graphics - I think it's important for Sims to NOT look too real. I think they live in their own "universe" and you are an onlooker. If they become *too* human you enter the uncanny valley and the things you do to (or with) them start to feel "icky" (for lack of a scientific word). However, I understand how passionate our CC community is about this and am constantly impressed by their creations.
- I hear "open world" a lot and of course on the surface I understand that nobody likes loads. But what are you looking for in your "play style"? Do you miss following your Sims around town? Is it the managing multiple Sims in multiple places? Is it larger spaces? There are actually a bunch of choices developers COULD make to address these problems in different ways if we understand the underlying need.
- Physics - your'e right, this is probably a bridge too far for the Sims. but could be interesting for sure!
- "Interactions like in the Sims 2" - could you give me some examples? There are actually a TON more details in some of our interactions than ever before - I know you're tired of hearing us trumpet "emotion!" but in reality I think the detail in facial expression, the changes in social interactions as you move through a conversation - these are details to me. What do you mean though? What are you looking for?
- CASt - we've talked about this at length in various other places on the forums - is color the important part for you? or patterns? is it just matching your wood tones or something more? It's hard to respond to just "CASt" so I want to learn more.
- Lifestages - even on this thread I've talked about that a lot. I understand.
Thank you again - I'm truly very interested in learning more about what you mean and what you are feeling that underly these issues for you.
If generations are seen as so important, why did you cut out the very heart of generations from the game -- family tree, story progression, and an entire life stage? Did anyone ask for this? I have a VERY hard time believing it.
Another thanks from me! It's great to know someone is listening.
Sims 4 overwhelmed me the first time through. I don't know why, but in previous games I could ignore a want, but in Sims 4 I feel compelled to grant as many of them as are wanted. (I know there is different terminology now, but that's the way I still think of them.) Maybe it's the interface. Maybe it's that huge picture of your active sim's reactions/emotions, maybe it's because every little step along the way to a goal is dictated (e.g., do X step and Y step and Z step before you gain the aspiration rather than accomplish long-term goal and go about it your own way).
I've learned to ignore the wishes a little better, but I still find myself rushing to fulfill them more than actually playing. It reminds me of my first attempt of the Sims app when I got my smart phone. I was excited to try it, but the first thing I had to do was befriend a dog I didn't want and jump through hoops to meet goals. That was absolutely no fun for me, so I deleted the app.
It also troubles me that features that were present in past base games are absent. (I don't specifically mean toddlers. Despite my avatar I have never been a huge toddler fan. I don't yet have any Sims 4 screenshots and couldn't find where photos of my sims are stored.) Anyway, I know EA is a business and they stay solvent by making money. I can't shake the feeling that one way they'll make money is to make us pay for things that earlier games offered from the get-go.
Please don't interpret this as me trying to stir up controversy but I'm genuinely curious - do "toddlers" simply represent "full lifestages" or, as I've hypothesized in other responses here - do they simply represent a feeling of lack of deep family gameplay? Is it because you want those "teaching" moments?
Anavastia had an idea of this that is growing on me, and which might satisfy the kind of play @Constance wants. We had a good discussion going, but the thread was closed inexplicably (to me, at least). The basic idea was that career aspirations would replace lifetime aspirations so that a variety of things you did contributed toward the goal. You wouldn't have specific tasks you focused on that reduced the time you had to explore other parts of the game, but a career meter so completing your aspirations (even if they didn't seem directly career related) would count toward your career.
In her own words, from cached content:
@Anavastia, if you're reading, maybe you could open this topic up again since it's your idea, it would be a shame for it to get scrapped because of a bit of bickering, and I think I and @Cinebar at least had more to say on the topic. I bet you did, too.
Even better might be to get a moderator to eliminate the offending post(s) and reopen that thread, or patch together that conversation and start a new thread because I think it was a worthwhile discussion.
First of all is the art style. This is 2014 and many of us have gaming computers. Why does TS4 look like Candy Crush on Facebook? The chunky graphics, the plastic hair, and the Disney Princess colors are a huge turnoff for a PC game, unless you're five years old. (Oddly enough, if it was a $5.99 iPad game, I might have bought it for my inner child.)
The closed world and loading screens are a step backwards. The extreme clipping, if that's your answer to routing problems, is laughable. The chant of "Emotions, emotions, emotions," turned out to be basically fluff. I could go on and on but feel others have better stated the problems for those of us who want a full-fledged life simulation game without RPG elements.
P.S. Edited to add that I abhor the Origin requirement and the fact that once the game's code is activated, you cannot resell your game if you so choose.
And I'm also concerned with how things grow when I play my story long-term, over many generations. Sometimes I like to micromanage my world, taking over the Sims who appear in it, and sometimes I like to deal with whoever's there by chance -- two different kinds of storytelling, in a way. In the first, I'm the omniscient storyteller controlling the whole world; in the second, I'm more first-person, discovering it. For the first, I'd love to be able to select Sims from my Library as those the game will draw on to place as unplayed Sims in the world -- kind of micromanaging in advance: setting things up without having to be in Manage Households to do it as regularly. For the second style, I just want the townie/unplayed generation and culling to work to fill more homes, make a more varied and balanced town (so many single-Sim households!), and not take away Sims I've met; SimGuruHolms said today that you guys are working on that, so I'm happy.
Re. those goal aspects. I think they don't bother me because (a) I know I can always use a mod to unlock stuff eventually if I really want to, (b) I actually don't want most of my Sims to achieve top of their profession or everything they aspire to or top of a skill, and I like knowing that there's things those Sims won't have as a result of being kind of average rather than exceptional. Even things like the secret venues: I have a Sim now who might get into one, but only because she's the kind of person who might, eventually, have looked at that tree a lot. Until I have a Sim who really "wants" to do that, I'm happy not to see it myself. But I can understand that for other kinds of players, their way of storytelling in the game is different from mine and they might want access to things earlier, and for the game itself to give that to them: a toggle for them, the way I want one to turn off certain kinds of beings or events.
Maybe we're all just a bit spoiled by having had three iterations of the game so far, heading slightly different ways, to open up so many kinds of gameplay. It's easy to want it all now, and we naturally all think we should be central kind of player for development. I know I do
No - you are right. We did not have people write in a say - please cut out all this stuff. Of course not. We DO value families - we focused on interesting relationships, special age interactions & age to age interactions, more content for the ages to enjoy or pursue, we did cool things with genetics. We DID make family important. What I take away though is - for you and other players like this - we picked the wrong part of families and we misunderstood your need.
I agree with Jules and Cyron on this matter really. TS4 has zero appeal to me at this time.
Thank you for responding. I feel you understand the playstyle and family issues very well. As for the goal system, let me try to elaborate. I do not feel compelled to complete goals, just for the sake of completing them. You always had to earn skills, or have a friend requirement for careers. This is fine. In Sims 4, there is more that has to be done in order to advance in your career, or school. I personaly like to have my sims advance,and for my children to do well. I just don't want that to be thier "life". I want them to actually be able to have the time to live a life, before the reaper appears. As for the locked content, it would be content that I paid for, that I have no access to, unless I complete said goals. That hardly seems fair, considering my playstyle. Objects in buy mode should not be locked away. There should be a reward for those who choose to complete goals, but that reward should be seperate from just "regular" gameplay items. What if I really like that stove?
Aspiration goals have always been there. I do try to help my Sims reach that aspiration. It's like thier own little personal achievement. There have been versions of goals and achievements before. They just never felt as " in your face," as the ones in Sims 4. They always felt optional, now they no longer do.
Hi SimGuruLyndsay, thank you for taking the time out to communicate with us!
Personally for me, no toddlers means: the development of a sim doesn't flow in a way that feels comfortable, or in a way that makes sense to my brain. From baby to child feels like an empty and unsatisfying experience. The toddler stage feels warm, it feels like its the time when mother/father and toddler really bond and can teach their offspring. I feel Sims 3 did this quite well.
Also as you say, the depth of gameplay isn't there. It feels at the moment like the early years for a sim don't matter, when in fact, they matter a great deal. I guess I'm more of a legacy player than anything else, and I like to experience the generations of my sims to their fullest extent. I don't feel I can do that right now. The family tree is also a must here as well.
Thank you for reading, I appreciate it.
Interesting observation - we wanted the whims to feel like little "tidbits" to kick you off down different paths. Not being able to see the panels is something we really don't like either (and want to change). An attraction system would be interesting, especially with the different factors that could be at play for each Sim.
Really appreciate you wading in to talk to folks!
I am one of the Simmers who's for the most part, very happy with Sims 4. That being said I do understand many of my fellow Simmers gripes on the other side of the fence.
For me, here are the issues I feel are providing a large founding of troubles that I believe/hope you and your team will look into improving/solving completely.
1) You took us from an open world (that admittedly had it's share of issues/performance problems) to a very closed-in, insular feeling world. While my load screens are quick, they are also very jarring. Even if open world is no longer in the cards for Sims 4 (I can deal with this) you will, IMO, go a long way to appeasing folks if you can find a way to carve out/streamline some of the over-abundance OF load screens present. For example, that load screen just to visit a house IN the same neighborhood lot? That needs to go. Why are the community lots segregated by load screens? They should also be one smooth connected group.
2) Multi-Sim control. This ties into #1 - switching between Sims when on different lots can be VERY irritating since if you are wanting to manage say, 3 Sims working on various projects, this means slamming yourself into load screens every 30 secs depending on how fast you're swapping around. It's very jarring and really needs to have a more elegant solution.
3) Toddlers/Teens - I'm baking these 2 in together, though they are different in why I'm bringing them up. For toddlers, the jump from baby to child for people who love legacies or just the family life in general was kind of a rough one. I'm personally not someone who spends a ton of time in the toddler phase, but having something that has been such a crucial staple IN the development cycle of a Sim being pulled for a deadline is not something that encourages confidence in the fans. If someone at the top of the chain is pushing you to do this, they need to be enlightened that having a bit of time to ensure these critical elements to the fans remain in. I raise the Teen point only because the whole drama over animations being shared aka why the Teen is the same height/VERY similar to a Young Adult. This isn't a deal breaker for me but as you consider changes to existing elements, I would humbly suggest finding a way to differentiate them a bit more either via height and/or some appearance tweaks would be most welcome.
4) Pools/other "lesser" items missing/expected to return - the whole Kotaku article about a Guru explaining that pools were "hard" caused a big amount of resentment. While I very much have always regarded pools as a "side diversion", the abject removal of them from the game coupled with "They are too hard to code well" statement sort of just blew a few minds. A better explanation or even statement about their potential future would be helpful. I expect they'll return and hopefully in much better form with more interactions (Cannonballs? Water gun fights? Oh prz yes) but this also begs the point, what are we going to be expected to pay to enjoy this now?
5) CASt - this may seem like a "small" thing but it goes without saying that giving players control over how all their things look, from furniture to clothes should never be understated and I sincerely hope you return this to us. Especially w/o a price tag attached to do it if possible.
6) Freebies - I understand that you all need to make a living and that Maxis/EA is a business at the end of the day. But it can never be understated that "Thank you for being fan" freebies go a long way to making us feel like our money/faith/time is well spent. I'm not talking about "Give us a free EP yo!" as much as, once you figure out dishwashers? Throw em our way without a price tag
Mahalos again for your time and I am anxious to see what develops. At the end of the day despite my grumps, I am enjoying Sims 4 immensely as well as talking to fellow fans here.
Yes I think jarring is a good word. It feels like there is a gap, a hole where there should be a happy, bouncy toddler. Please, I beg you Maxis, give players toddlers again.
I appreciate the inclusion of these features in TS4 is highly unlikely but would like them reconsidered for TS5. In the meantime I will be staying with TS3 and hope EA will continue to support this version of the game for as long as possible.
Finally (as you worked on TS3) if you were at all involved with Sunlit Tides and Hidden Springs thank you for your work. They are most beautiful and a pleasure to play and build in
Wherever I am friends call me Betty
Sim enim est vita