I think that the difference between us is that you mainly are a gamer who admires all the moderators because you don't have the knowledge to mod or program yourself. Therefore you seem to think that the modders are almost gods even though most of them are just young people who are interested in learning about games and programming games. Maybe because they dream about becoming game programmers themselves. So they have just installed some modding tools from the internet and use those tools to curiously study the game code to understand just a little about how it is made. Then they feel as big heroes when they also discover how the modding tools can be used to modify the game just a little.
I don't admire them in the same way as you do because I know that I could do the same myself. I am just not interested because prigramming was something I did many years ago in my education to become a computer scientist and which I finally found so boring that I decided to mainly teach students in math instead. Also I don't think that I could make the game much better by modding it anyway and I sure prefer to just play the games instead of using most of my time on modding them. But I understand the young modders who see a future in studying game programming and with a dream about becoming professional game programmers.
??? Neia does modding and is quite knowledgeable at it.
She like to praise other modders and I remember seeing her at modthesims too. But I have never seen any mods from her and she has never referred to her own findings in the game code but a lot of times telling me about what other modders have found. So I think you are quite wrong here. But let us just hear her own answer instead.
Honestly, you sound like you're trying to flip the script because someone accurately pointed out that you aren't well-informed on an experiencing level on the inner workings of developing a video game.
People who only play the game, don't know anything about programming or modding always tell me that
But I am a computer scientist who has played hundreds of games for many many years and visited several sites for modders and game reviewers too for many years. So no matter how many times simmers without much knowledge themselves tell me this it just doesn't impress me at all
Nobody needs to be a game developer to analyze games themselves, but it certainly makes a difference if you're trying to analyze the capabilities of a dev team.
Correct. But game developers rarely participate in the debate because they can't tell us about their work anyway. They can only give us the little information which the game companies want them to give.
Also, your view on modding is very strange to me. It's like you're throwing up this straw-man argument that modders think they are amazing, so that you can tear them down. It's just weird. I've been modding obsessively and intensively for over six months now and I can tell you, it's really hard to be egotistical as a modder (at least for me) because for every problem you solve and every question you answer, there's always an endless supply of more problems and issues waiting around the corner to throw up brick walls in your face. Modders can be, at any given time, trying to grasp anything and everything there is to do with making the game and putting it together. Some aspects are harder to mess with, with this game, like UI, but a lot of the game is editable and most paid developers in a large team are going to have specialized roles, so it's like you're going full-on indie, trying to learn everybody's job enough that you can do it in varying degrees, or at least understand how it functions.
There's nothing magical about it. It's just hard, grueling self-teaching that happens to be rewarding and enjoyable enough for some people that they're motivated to put the time in. It's also a decent way of getting game dev experience, so that you can break into the industry, if that's something you're looking to do, since game companies generally want people who are self-starters enough to have made some games themselves in some way.
I know that studying the game code to just understand a little of can be challenging if you want to learn game programming and hope to become a game developer yourselves. I also remember all the hardcore programming fans from the days when I studied computer science myself. We all had our own keys to the university and even in the middle of the night we could meet some of the other students when we entered the computer room to work on some project.
But I am a computer scientist sir or miss which ever you may be those who are truly smart don't need to prove it to others @Erpe
You do have to prove it if you want any game company to hire you
If you only can write in your application to a game company like EA that you have made a couple of mods to a Sims game but don't have any education at all as a programmer, artist, producer or game designer then you don't have a chance for EA to hire you. You either need to be able to write that you have the required education or that you have done similar work for another game company who recommends you. Otherwise you can only become a game developer by making your own game company. But this is very difficult too without the required knowledge and a lot of money.
I think that the difference between us is that you mainly are a gamer who admires all the moderators because you don't have the knowledge to mod or program yourself. Therefore you seem to think that the modders are almost gods even though most of them are just young people who are interested in learning about games and programming games. Maybe because they dream about becoming game programmers themselves. So they have just installed some modding tools from the internet and use those tools to curiously study the game code to understand just a little about how it is made. Then they feel as big heroes when they also discover how the modding tools can be used to modify the game just a little.
I don't admire them in the same way as you do because I know that I could do the same myself. I am just not interested because prigramming was something I did many years ago in my education to become a computer scientist and which I finally found so boring that I decided to mainly teach students in math instead. Also I don't think that I could make the game much better by modding it anyway and I sure prefer to just play the games instead of using most of my time on modding them. But I understand the young modders who see a future in studying game programming and with a dream about becoming professional game programmers.
??? Neia does modding and is quite knowledgeable at it.
She like to praise other modders and I remember seeing her at modthesims too. But I have never seen any mods from her and she has never referred to her own findings in the game code but a lot of times telling me about what other modders have found. So I think you are quite wrong here. But let us just hear her own answer instead.
Honestly, you sound like you're trying to flip the script because someone accurately pointed out that you aren't well-informed on an experiencing level on the inner workings of developing a video game.
People who only play the game, don't know anything about programming or modding always tell me that
But I am a computer scientist who has played hundreds of games for many many years and visited several sites for modders and game reviewers too for many years. So no matter how many times simmers without much knowledge themselves tell me this it just doesn't impress me at all
Nobody needs to be a game developer to analyze games themselves, but it certainly makes a difference if you're trying to analyze the capabilities of a dev team.
Correct. But game developers rarely participate in the debate because they can't tell us about their work anyway. They can only give us the little information which the game companies want them to give.
Also, your view on modding is very strange to me. It's like you're throwing up this straw-man argument that modders think they are amazing, so that you can tear them down. It's just weird. I've been modding obsessively and intensively for over six months now and I can tell you, it's really hard to be egotistical as a modder (at least for me) because for every problem you solve and every question you answer, there's always an endless supply of more problems and issues waiting around the corner to throw up brick walls in your face. Modders can be, at any given time, trying to grasp anything and everything there is to do with making the game and putting it together. Some aspects are harder to mess with, with this game, like UI, but a lot of the game is editable and most paid developers in a large team are going to have specialized roles, so it's like you're going full-on indie, trying to learn everybody's job enough that you can do it in varying degrees, or at least understand how it functions.
There's nothing magical about it. It's just hard, grueling self-teaching that happens to be rewarding and enjoyable enough for some people that they're motivated to put the time in. It's also a decent way of getting game dev experience, so that you can break into the industry, if that's something you're looking to do, since game companies generally want people who are self-starters enough to have made some games themselves in some way.
I know that studying the game code to just understand a little of can be challenging if you want to learn game programming and hope to become a game developer yourselves. I also remember all the hardcore programming fans from the days when I studied computer science myself. We all had our own keys to the university and even in the middle of the night we could meet some of the other students when we entered the computer room to work on some project.
Yeah... I'm not doing one of those dissect a response into five million paragraphs back-and-forths.
It seems you've taken this very personally all of a sudden, simply because Neia correctly said that you haven't worked as a game developer and thus aren't well-informed on that point of view.
Why, I don't know. You generally seem to be on an even keel, but it would seem that not choosing game development as a career path is a sore spot for you. There's nothing wrong with admitting that your knowledge is limited. There's nothing wrong with others knowing more about a subject than you do either. I'm sure you could school me on object-oriented programming, but I probably know more about close-up game design work than you do. I don't know why it matters so much to you, to prove that you know what you're talking about on this.
Neia will probably give an answer, but none is needed. Her work speaks for itself. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
As for modders and dreaming: 1) I never said anything about "easy" and 2) There was a Skyrim modder who got hired by Naughty Dog, granted his mod was super elaborate and detailed (it's not the common happenstance, but it doesn't need to be... I never claimed it's some sort of magic button). The article you linked is talking about programming, which is one kind of job in the industry out of many. For someone who claims to understand how game design works, you increasingly seem to have very little idea of what you're talking about. Studying computer science doesn't make you well-versed in game design. The information I have on how breaking into the industry works is straight from the mouths of people who are experienced in its workings; and no, there is no one answer or magic button for it. It's generalized advice and I'm sure it changes somewhat over time, as the industry evolves rapidly. It's probably even harder to break in than when I first got that advice, due to increased number of people trying to get the same jobs.
I studied game design in college. One of the first guinea-pig game design programs put together. I'm by no stretch of the imagination an expert on game design, but I certainly know the principles of how it's put together, some of it on an experiencing level, and you sound increasingly full of baloney when it comes to game design. Reading a few articles about it on the internet and playing hundreds of games doesn't automatically mean you know how game design works. If the world worked that way, then I would be knowledgeable on how chocolate is processed and put together because I've eaten a ton of it in my life.
And again, there's nothing wrong with being ignorant about it. It's not a character flaw, for heaven's sake. We all have different things we're more studied in, and knowledgeable about. You could still learn a lot about it too, but you certainly aren't going to learn it by playing more games. Maybe attend game developer conferences or something if you just want to observe. Or read blogs written by experienced developers. You aren't going to learn about it by reading game reviews; you'll pick up some surface level stuff, but that's about it.
There is a different person in charge now from who was there when TS4 was designed and first released. I knew we were finally getting the right person for the game.
Listen, programmers do face the fact that while they're not as highly named as say, an actor or a painter, when they're in the business their names do become known. They tend to specialise though, because every game's engine is different. After years of Sims 2 and 3 having pretty much the same engine, a new engine was built and everything had to be done from scratch. Even if they kept their jobs, the programmers had to learn a new engine, and every time they make something new - many items which will never be used in another pack, like the popcorn maker - it is from scratch. A new engine means even the original chairs are from scratch.
On the other hand, this is their job, they are faced with deadlines and polygon budgets.
Modders, on the other hand, don't have the same pressure. They may well produce nicer items, of course. These items can be completely functional. Mods for the Ball Pit were turned out in days, from the All Ball-Pit, to the Spaghetti Pit. But they weren't done from scratch. It proves how easy it is to make something in Sims - once you have the mimic.
And then there's the hard-core modders, who provide complex programming like that mod that allows your Sims to - uh... well anyway, not all modders are at the same level of skill. Or mental stability.
Whenever Devs make something for Sims 4, even if it was made in the Sims 3, it has to be done from scratch here. Which is why things might have bugs, and is why Cats&Dogs doesn't come with horses but did have a vet career, and is why they say things like "A paddling pool? They've seen paddling pools. If we're going to do something new, why not do a ball-pit?" and then look at it later and say "Oh, so that's why we didn't do a ball-pit."
Prepping a list of mods to add after Infants are placed into the game. Because real life isn't 'nice'.
Listen, programmers do face the fact that while they're not as highly named as say, an actor or a painter, when they're in the business their names do become known. They tend to specialise though, because every game's engine is different. After years of Sims 2 and 3 having pretty much the same engine, a new engine was built and everything had to be done from scratch. Even if they kept their jobs, the programmers had to learn a new engine, and every time they make something new - many items which will never be used in another pack, like the popcorn maker - it is from scratch. A new engine means even the original chairs are from scratch.
There specialization is usually quite random though and can often change because they need to make the kind of games that the company chooses for them and change again when the company chooses something different. Just a couple of examples:
EA's studio in Salt Lake City originally specialized in Tiger Woods golf games. Then they were chosen to make the Sims 2 for wii. Around the same time (both before and after) they were chosen to make 2 Madden NFL games for Windows. Then they were chosen to make 3 Littlest Pets Shop games for wii and Nintendo DS. A little later they were chosen to make the Sims 3 on 3DS. Later they were chosen by EA to make 4 EPs for Sims 3.
EA Firemonkeys in Melbourne specialized in racing games. Then they were chosen by EA to make the Sims Freeplay for a lot of mobile platforms.
So developers actually very rarely get the option to just choose by themselves which types of games to make
@Erpe
Yes, I'm modding, some of my mods are even linked on my profile. I'm also working as a developper. And I have a formal education in computer science.
And FYI, when developpers are specialized, it's not by game genre, it's by discipline : AI, sounds, network, build, etc.
Stop arguing and reporting each other randomly and telling each other to report each other. @boykinater18 I could report you for straying so randomly off-topic and trolling, so don't be one, 'kay?
@Triples, don't go looking for things that aren't there, because you'll always find them.
@Erpe, don't rise to the bait, and get back on topic, or something approaching the topic, which was originally whether we thought the Devs were learning how to give us the things we want.
Are Modders doing the job better than the Devs? I don't know; there's so many Modders out there, at so many different levels of skill. And so many mods at different levels of functionality. There are some AWESOME mods out there. Then again, there's a bunch that will break your game too. There's so much to trawl through, and a lot of it is Modders modding other mods.
No, I hate the idea that 'it's okay that they got something wrong because Modders will fix it'. That's a terrible way to shift responsibility. They shouldn't get anything wrong. Of course, they do. In which case, they need to fix it. GTW's lack of completion infuriates me. It also infuriates me that I know the reason why it's not getting fixed; everybody who finds out about how irritating the bugs are has already bought it.
I bet if Devs had to make a free item every time they found a bug, they'd have a lot less bugs on release.
Prepping a list of mods to add after Infants are placed into the game. Because real life isn't 'nice'.
In today's patch, we got a fix for the Toddler Ball Pit.
I think they must have looked at their list of things for toddlers and said "We've never had a ball pit before."
If you've been watching the Community Pack, you'll now know that animated, functioning objects are the last to be coloured in. Logically the Pit had been through concept, then function, and by the time it was coloured in, it was too late to make it a sand pit or paddling pool. "We've never had a ball-pit before, and now we know why."
But they're learning and they're listening, and it's less than a month and a nice new skin that looks so much better. That's the sort of thing they need to remember about.
They made a small fix to the object based solely on community feedback. They aren't learning, because they had the ability to do this in the first place. Had the community not spoken up this would not have been changed. It just goes to show the bare minimum they do for these packs and how the community needs to continue to hold them accountable when their work is substandard.
I agree with you. But it does show that even if it were just one object, that if our voices are loud enough they will do something about it. I feel that way with toddlers as well. I think after they moved a certain someone out, things are trying to move in the right direction. But I could be wrong. Guess time will only tell.
With enough interest being shown in other concepts (Off The Grid, canning, nectar making, etc.) we could see them picked up by other teams. For example, a Seasons EP with Off the Grid aspects could be amazing, with weather actually effecting game play. For example, if you use solar panels for your energy source, what happens when there's not as much sun (fall/winter for Northern Hemisphere folks)? Battery storage? Buying power from the local utility? Going without with a generator to operate important appliances like the refrigerator? Canning/nectar making could be part of the much-requested rural/farming EP along with new plants and maybe a county fair where produce and crafts can be judged. Just because the themes/items didn't make the cut for the community pack doesn't mean that they can't be a jumping board for future content.
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But I am a computer scientist sir or miss which ever you may be those who are truly smart don't need to prove it to others @Erpe
You do have to prove it if you want any game company to hire you
If you only can write in your application to a game company like EA that you have made a couple of mods to a Sims game but don't have any education at all as a programmer, artist, producer or game designer then you don't have a chance for EA to hire you. You either need to be able to write that you have the required education or that you have done similar work for another game company who recommends you. Otherwise you can only become a game developer by making your own game company. But this is very difficult too without the required knowledge and a lot of money.
sorry for causing you trouble I agree you do have to prove it if your looking for a job
but other then that don't worry you know your smart you don't have to prove it to anyone
as for the people that make the game there trying there best which is all anyone can do @erpe
Sims 4 graphics are beautiful imo. I hate sims 3 graphics . And I definitely dont think that game looks any more realistic.On a fb group I follow for the sims, quite a few people were making fun of how bad sims 3 toddlers look and I happen to agree about how unappealing the sims in that game are. I enjoy the cartoony look. My sims are all adorable
Guys, can we just try to stop discussing each other like @Loanet, the OP asked us to do? Also, sorry btw, hadn't seen your post before clicking send on mine, but it wasn't meant to push Erpe in a corner or whatever. Or anyone else.
I like the modding question: cause I guess in some ways games like these might just rely on modders anyway? Like, there'll always be a certain natural limit as to what devs can realistically implement & fix. Does that mean modders are doing a better job? Well, they've got less of a job to do (overall), and what they do to make the game better for us is entirely based on free will and skill. Not budgets. So maybe it'd be easier and fairer to say that they're doing an excellent complementary job? One we've already come to heavily rely on in TS3. And it's not exclusive to the sims either, games are perhaps more moddable (is that a word?) today cause they're also so much more complex. But they can never really offer every single thing every possible player might want. Again, I still think the devs are doing a much better job at giving us the content we want now compared to before (that's my feeling anyway, I suppose in the end, the story will be more complicated than that), but regardless of how good a job they do, I feel there's always gonna be something left to modify for someone
Guys, can we just try to stop discussing each other like @Loanet, the OP asked us to do? Also, sorry btw, hadn't seen your post before clicking send on mine, but it wasn't meant to push Erpe in a corner or whatever. Or anyone else.
I like the modding question: cause I guess in some ways games like these might just rely on modders anyway? Like, there'll always be a certain natural limit as to what devs can realistically implement & fix. Does that mean modders are doing a better job? Well, they've got less of a job to do (overall), and what they do to make the game better for us is entirely based on free will and skill. Not budgets. So maybe it'd be easier and fairer to say that they're doing an excellent complementary job? One we've already come to heavily rely on in TS3. And it's not exclusive to the sims either, games are perhaps more moddable (is that a word?) today cause they're also so much more complex. But they can never really offer every single thing every possible player might want. Again, I still think the devs are doing a much better job at giving us the content we want now compared to before (that's my feeling anyway, I suppose in the end, the story will be more complicated than that), but regardless of how good a job they do, I feel there's always gonna be something left to modify for someone
I agree there's always something that could be added or improved
Yes, Modders will in the end only give the community what they want to see in the game themselves. And why should they give more? They're giving their own unpaid time and effort, after all. The vast majority of Modder content is CAS, because it's easier. Thing is, I only need one pair of shoes because I only have one pair of feet.
Devs, on the other hand, have access to more than this forum. They have something better than heartfelt pleas. They have statistics, so they know what we really want and what's just loud people. A team. A budget. A motivation. Computers powerful enough to beat a bear to death with. When they make something new, then it should work with all combinations of the game, future as well as present. Mods have no such duties to the customer. Sadly, Devs also have an age rating (although 90% of the time they seem to think it's PG, not T).
Prepping a list of mods to add after Infants are placed into the game. Because real life isn't 'nice'.
Yes, Modders will in the end only give the community what they want to see in the game themselves. And why should they give more? They're giving their own unpaid time and effort, after all. The vast majority of Modder content is CAS, because it's easier. Thing is, I only need one pair of shoes because I only have one pair of feet.
Devs, on the other hand, have access to more than this forum. They have something better than heartfelt pleas. They have statistics, so they know what we really want and what's just loud people. A team. A budget. A motivation. Computers powerful enough to beat a bear to death with. When they make something new, then it should work with all combinations of the game, future as well as present. Mods have no such duties to the customer. Sadly, Devs also have an age rating (although 90% of the time they seem to think it's PG, not T).
I've seen more death in a pg movie then in sims 4 @Loanet
Yes, Modders will in the end only give the community what they want to see in the game themselves. And why should they give more? They're giving their own unpaid time and effort, after all. The vast majority of Modder content is CAS, because it's easier. Thing is, I only need one pair of shoes because I only have one pair of feet.
Devs, on the other hand, have access to more than this forum. They have something better than heartfelt pleas. They have statistics, so they know what we really want and what's just loud people. A team. A budget. A motivation. Computers powerful enough to beat a bear to death with. When they make something new, then it should work with all combinations of the game, future as well as present. Mods have no such duties to the customer. Sadly, Devs also have an age rating (although 90% of the time they seem to think it's PG, not T).
I don't know how accurate their statistics are in what they truly mean though. Numbers don't always tell the whole story and the people reading them often think they know what they mean without truly understanding them. According to statistics, no one played with toddlers.
Post edited by kremesch73 on
Dissatisfied with Sims 4 and hoping for a better Sims 5
For whatever it's worth, as a modder, I don't believe that much insightful comes from comparing modders to paid game devs, especially if we're talking about a hundreds-of-people team size. They're just so different on such fundamental levels.
Some examples of what I mean by different:
- Typical modder only has to answer to him/herself (this cuts out a TON of red tape... cuts out any and all "meetings," cuts out all cat herding and team organizing, and just leaves one person to make some decisions and get some work done). | Hundreds of people team has tons of layers of team lead this and director that and office politics and meetings and organizational flow charts and powerpoints and more meetings and legal teams and marketing teams and more meetings and schedules and deadlines and corporate and more meetings. (You get the idea, I'm just having fun writing more meetings over and over.)
- Players generally have almost no expectations for modders out of the gate. It's expected that mods will have bugs, will be a work in progress, might even break their game. And they're free and totally optional, opt-in, opt-out at any time, total control in the hands of the person choosing to use the modder content. | Hundreds of people team working for major corporate company has expectations through the roof from players. Players tend to expect only the best of the best of the best and nothing less. Mistakes mean the company needs to apologize or compensate financially or fire someone or fix it immediately. Bugs are unprofessional and insulting. Money changes hands, changes aren't opt-in, they just get forced on you, and emotions run high.
Basically, if people took the standards they apply to a team of Maxis's size and applied it to the typical modder, no one would ever want to mod again because they would get trashed into oblivion. This is true of most modders in most games and it's not an insult to modders, it's just a point about how different the thinking and considerations are. And it's good that they're different because the situations are different and for the most part, I think people understand that; intuitively, if not consciously every time.
I don't like that either. But it is actually quite annoying to experience here that there isn't any respect for educations anymore and that simmers think that a young modder who just installed some modding tools and used one or two month to understand .5% of the code is more skilled than highly educated game programmers, game producers and computer scientist who studied programming and/or computer science on university for several years. It insults me as a teacher who has a high respect for educations and it insults my own education and my competency as a teacher in math and computer science.
Ahhh, so the truth comes out. You're mad because you think having a degree means you're supposed to have people kowtowing to what you say.
No I am not mad at all Just wondering if you also think that you know more about math than your math teacher, more about medicine than the medical doctors, more about engineering than the engineers, more about economy than the economists, more about law than the lawyers and so on?
I don't like that either. But it is actually quite annoying to experience here that there isn't any respect for educations anymore and that simmers think that a young modder who just installed some modding tools and used one or two month to understand .5% of the code is more skilled than highly educated game programmers, game producers and computer scientist who studied programming and/or computer science on university for several years. It insults me as a teacher who has a high respect for educations and it insults my own education and my competency as a teacher in math and computer science.
Mad, insulted, annoyed. Whatever you want to call it, obviously it bothers you. I'm not making this up. These are your words and you can try to wiggle out of them, but they are permanently there.
Now I'd like you to show me the part where I ever said anything about being superior to people on subjects that I'm not knowledgeable in. Because you keep implying this arrogance that is nothing more than people with knowledge telling you things you don't want to hear.
You misunderstood what I meant because I am not personally insulted at all. I am insulted professionally at the behalf of the universities, university professors and researchers who use all their time on researching and teaching students for years when people come here and say that a teen who just read a leaflet about programming, installed a couple of modding tools and used a few hours to make their first mods know more than game developers and computer scientists who the universities used years to educate and I am insulted on behalf of all the university students who worked so hard to pass their exams even though half of them didn't manage to pass anyway.
You should read the blog on https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EthanLevy/20130903/199493/7_lessons_I_wish_I_learned_before_starting_my_first_game_internship.php where a game developer who started just as an intern now regrets the way he behaved when he in his days as an intern also thought that he knew more than all the experienced and highly educated game developers. He thought he was better than them and tried to tell them how they should make the games instead of the way they had chosen. But later he understood why he had been wrong anyway. Fortunately he wasn't fired but actually managed to get promoted to game developer in spite of his behavior.
@Erpe
Yes, I'm modding, some of my mods are even linked on my profile. I'm also working as a developper. And I have a formal education in computer science.
Sorry. You just didn't sound like that. I also searched for your mods on mts without finding any.
Generally I don't have huge respect for all modders like you seemed to have. Your messages sounded like you saw them as gods who were able to do things that were magical to you and that you never thought you could do yourself. But I guess that I at least to some degree misunderstood you and I found the links to your career mods on your profile. So sorry for that.
There are huge differences between modders though and I know that I never would have had a discussion like ours with Pescado and it would be very unlikely to have with a super modder like Twallan too. If you can gain respect from a person like Pescado then you can be sure that I will respect and admire you too. But are you at all on http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php too?
And FYI, when developpers are specialized, it's not by game genre, it's by discipline : AI, sounds, network, build, etc.
I know. The educations as (game) programmer, artist, producer, game designer and so on are all different.
People here mostly think though that the developer in Maxis only have made Sims games because the Sims games are the games they love. But there are other game studios in EA's Redwood headquarter too and even though we don't hear about EA likely moves some of the developers around when needed. A game developer is never specialized in making only one type of games because developers have to be flexible and able to make all kinds of games as their company needs them to do. So I actually doubt if many of the Sims developers chose to make Sims games themselves. More likely they almost all ended up in Maxis just because Maxis was the place that needed more developers at the time and they will likely just move to Bioware games or sports games if EA want them to.
@Erpe
Yes, I'm modding, some of my mods are even linked on my profile. I'm also working as a developper. And I have a formal education in computer science.
Sorry. You just didn't sound like that. I also searched for your mods on mts without finding any.
.
That's odd I found 13 downloads attributed to Neia , 9 of which were mods
@Erpe
Yes, I'm modding, some of my mods are even linked on my profile. I'm also working as a developper. And I have a formal education in computer science.
Sorry. You just didn't sound like that. I also searched for your mods on mts without finding any.
.
That's odd I found 13 downloads attributed to Neia , 9 of which were mods
You are right. I found them too now. So I don't know why mts couldn't find them earlier - and also not whether it was my mistake or if the search function on mts just didn't work at the time where I tried?
Yeah it's a well known fact that Neia makes mods. I like them, they're often in line with things I'm looking for anyway. I try not to use too many mods, but I've used some of Neia's & enjoyed them.
It's like I said. Modders aren't necesserily better or worse than Devs. They're different. It's perfectly possible that the item you're looking for, say a bed shaped like an [insert random shape here] will never be made, because... well, it depends on the shape of the bed, really... Who you gonna call? Modders!
Prepping a list of mods to add after Infants are placed into the game. Because real life isn't 'nice'.
Comments
People who only play the game, don't know anything about programming or modding always tell me that
But I am a computer scientist who has played hundreds of games for many many years and visited several sites for modders and game reviewers too for many years. So no matter how many times simmers without much knowledge themselves tell me this it just doesn't impress me at all
Correct. But game developers rarely participate in the debate because they can't tell us about their work anyway. They can only give us the little information which the game companies want them to give.
I know that studying the game code to just understand a little of can be challenging if you want to learn game programming and hope to become a game developer yourselves. I also remember all the hardcore programming fans from the days when I studied computer science myself. We all had our own keys to the university and even in the middle of the night we could meet some of the other students when we entered the computer room to work on some project.
But I think that the modders are just dreaming because you don't become a game developer the easy way by just modding. Instead you have to follow the advices on http://study.com/articles/Become_a_Gaming_Programmer_Step-by-Step_Career_Guide.html
If you only can write in your application to a game company like EA that you have made a couple of mods to a Sims game but don't have any education at all as a programmer, artist, producer or game designer then you don't have a chance for EA to hire you. You either need to be able to write that you have the required education or that you have done similar work for another game company who recommends you. Otherwise you can only become a game developer by making your own game company. But this is very difficult too without the required knowledge and a lot of money.
It seems you've taken this very personally all of a sudden, simply because Neia correctly said that you haven't worked as a game developer and thus aren't well-informed on that point of view.
Why, I don't know. You generally seem to be on an even keel, but it would seem that not choosing game development as a career path is a sore spot for you. There's nothing wrong with admitting that your knowledge is limited. There's nothing wrong with others knowing more about a subject than you do either. I'm sure you could school me on object-oriented programming, but I probably know more about close-up game design work than you do. I don't know why it matters so much to you, to prove that you know what you're talking about on this.
Neia will probably give an answer, but none is needed. Her work speaks for itself. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
As for modders and dreaming: 1) I never said anything about "easy" and 2) There was a Skyrim modder who got hired by Naughty Dog, granted his mod was super elaborate and detailed (it's not the common happenstance, but it doesn't need to be... I never claimed it's some sort of magic button). The article you linked is talking about programming, which is one kind of job in the industry out of many. For someone who claims to understand how game design works, you increasingly seem to have very little idea of what you're talking about. Studying computer science doesn't make you well-versed in game design. The information I have on how breaking into the industry works is straight from the mouths of people who are experienced in its workings; and no, there is no one answer or magic button for it. It's generalized advice and I'm sure it changes somewhat over time, as the industry evolves rapidly. It's probably even harder to break in than when I first got that advice, due to increased number of people trying to get the same jobs.
I studied game design in college. One of the first guinea-pig game design programs put together. I'm by no stretch of the imagination an expert on game design, but I certainly know the principles of how it's put together, some of it on an experiencing level, and you sound increasingly full of baloney when it comes to game design. Reading a few articles about it on the internet and playing hundreds of games doesn't automatically mean you know how game design works. If the world worked that way, then I would be knowledgeable on how chocolate is processed and put together because I've eaten a ton of it in my life.
And again, there's nothing wrong with being ignorant about it. It's not a character flaw, for heaven's sake. We all have different things we're more studied in, and knowledgeable about. You could still learn a lot about it too, but you certainly aren't going to learn it by playing more games. Maybe attend game developer conferences or something if you just want to observe. Or read blogs written by experienced developers. You aren't going to learn about it by reading game reviews; you'll pick up some surface level stuff, but that's about it.
Listen, programmers do face the fact that while they're not as highly named as say, an actor or a painter, when they're in the business their names do become known. They tend to specialise though, because every game's engine is different. After years of Sims 2 and 3 having pretty much the same engine, a new engine was built and everything had to be done from scratch. Even if they kept their jobs, the programmers had to learn a new engine, and every time they make something new - many items which will never be used in another pack, like the popcorn maker - it is from scratch. A new engine means even the original chairs are from scratch.
On the other hand, this is their job, they are faced with deadlines and polygon budgets.
Modders, on the other hand, don't have the same pressure. They may well produce nicer items, of course. These items can be completely functional. Mods for the Ball Pit were turned out in days, from the All Ball-Pit, to the Spaghetti Pit. But they weren't done from scratch. It proves how easy it is to make something in Sims - once you have the mimic.
And then there's the hard-core modders, who provide complex programming like that mod that allows your Sims to - uh... well anyway, not all modders are at the same level of skill. Or mental stability.
Whenever Devs make something for Sims 4, even if it was made in the Sims 3, it has to be done from scratch here. Which is why things might have bugs, and is why Cats&Dogs doesn't come with horses but did have a vet career, and is why they say things like "A paddling pool? They've seen paddling pools. If we're going to do something new, why not do a ball-pit?" and then look at it later and say "Oh, so that's why we didn't do a ball-pit."
EA's studio in Salt Lake City originally specialized in Tiger Woods golf games. Then they were chosen to make the Sims 2 for wii. Around the same time (both before and after) they were chosen to make 2 Madden NFL games for Windows. Then they were chosen to make 3 Littlest Pets Shop games for wii and Nintendo DS. A little later they were chosen to make the Sims 3 on 3DS. Later they were chosen by EA to make 4 EPs for Sims 3.
EA Firemonkeys in Melbourne specialized in racing games. Then they were chosen by EA to make the Sims Freeplay for a lot of mobile platforms.
So developers actually very rarely get the option to just choose by themselves which types of games to make
Yes, I'm modding, some of my mods are even linked on my profile. I'm also working as a developper. And I have a formal education in computer science.
And FYI, when developpers are specialized, it's not by game genre, it's by discipline : AI, sounds, network, build, etc.
@Triples, don't go looking for things that aren't there, because you'll always find them.
@Erpe, don't rise to the bait, and get back on topic, or something approaching the topic, which was originally whether we thought the Devs were learning how to give us the things we want.
Are Modders doing the job better than the Devs? I don't know; there's so many Modders out there, at so many different levels of skill. And so many mods at different levels of functionality. There are some AWESOME mods out there. Then again, there's a bunch that will break your game too. There's so much to trawl through, and a lot of it is Modders modding other mods.
No, I hate the idea that 'it's okay that they got something wrong because Modders will fix it'. That's a terrible way to shift responsibility. They shouldn't get anything wrong. Of course, they do. In which case, they need to fix it. GTW's lack of completion infuriates me. It also infuriates me that I know the reason why it's not getting fixed; everybody who finds out about how irritating the bugs are has already bought it.
I bet if Devs had to make a free item every time they found a bug, they'd have a lot less bugs on release.
With enough interest being shown in other concepts (Off The Grid, canning, nectar making, etc.) we could see them picked up by other teams. For example, a Seasons EP with Off the Grid aspects could be amazing, with weather actually effecting game play. For example, if you use solar panels for your energy source, what happens when there's not as much sun (fall/winter for Northern Hemisphere folks)? Battery storage? Buying power from the local utility? Going without with a generator to operate important appliances like the refrigerator? Canning/nectar making could be part of the much-requested rural/farming EP along with new plants and maybe a county fair where produce and crafts can be judged. Just because the themes/items didn't make the cut for the community pack doesn't mean that they can't be a jumping board for future content.
Fun must be always -- Tomas Hertl (San Jose Sharks hockey player)
sorry for causing you trouble I agree you do have to prove it if your looking for a job
but other then that don't worry you know your smart you don't have to prove it to anyone
as for the people that make the game there trying there best which is all anyone can do
@erpe
I like the modding question: cause I guess in some ways games like these might just rely on modders anyway? Like, there'll always be a certain natural limit as to what devs can realistically implement & fix. Does that mean modders are doing a better job? Well, they've got less of a job to do (overall), and what they do to make the game better for us is entirely based on free will and skill. Not budgets. So maybe it'd be easier and fairer to say that they're doing an excellent complementary job? One we've already come to heavily rely on in TS3. And it's not exclusive to the sims either, games are perhaps more moddable (is that a word?) today cause they're also so much more complex. But they can never really offer every single thing every possible player might want. Again, I still think the devs are doing a much better job at giving us the content we want now compared to before (that's my feeling anyway, I suppose in the end, the story will be more complicated than that), but regardless of how good a job they do, I feel there's always gonna be something left to modify for someone
I agree there's always something that could be added or improved
Yes, Modders will in the end only give the community what they want to see in the game themselves. And why should they give more? They're giving their own unpaid time and effort, after all. The vast majority of Modder content is CAS, because it's easier. Thing is, I only need one pair of shoes because I only have one pair of feet.
Devs, on the other hand, have access to more than this forum. They have something better than heartfelt pleas. They have statistics, so they know what we really want and what's just loud people. A team. A budget. A motivation. Computers powerful enough to beat a bear to death with. When they make something new, then it should work with all combinations of the game, future as well as present. Mods have no such duties to the customer. Sadly, Devs also have an age rating (although 90% of the time they seem to think it's PG, not T).
I've seen more death in a pg movie then in sims 4 @Loanet
I don't know how accurate their statistics are in what they truly mean though. Numbers don't always tell the whole story and the people reading them often think they know what they mean without truly understanding them. According to statistics, no one played with toddlers.
Some examples of what I mean by different:
- Typical modder only has to answer to him/herself (this cuts out a TON of red tape... cuts out any and all "meetings," cuts out all cat herding and team organizing, and just leaves one person to make some decisions and get some work done). | Hundreds of people team has tons of layers of team lead this and director that and office politics and meetings and organizational flow charts and powerpoints and more meetings and legal teams and marketing teams and more meetings and schedules and deadlines and corporate and more meetings. (You get the idea, I'm just having fun writing more meetings over and over.)
- Players generally have almost no expectations for modders out of the gate. It's expected that mods will have bugs, will be a work in progress, might even break their game. And they're free and totally optional, opt-in, opt-out at any time, total control in the hands of the person choosing to use the modder content. | Hundreds of people team working for major corporate company has expectations through the roof from players. Players tend to expect only the best of the best of the best and nothing less. Mistakes mean the company needs to apologize or compensate financially or fire someone or fix it immediately. Bugs are unprofessional and insulting. Money changes hands, changes aren't opt-in, they just get forced on you, and emotions run high.
Basically, if people took the standards they apply to a team of Maxis's size and applied it to the typical modder, no one would ever want to mod again because they would get trashed into oblivion. This is true of most modders in most games and it's not an insult to modders, it's just a point about how different the thinking and considerations are. And it's good that they're different because the situations are different and for the most part, I think people understand that; intuitively, if not consciously every time.
You should read the blog on https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EthanLevy/20130903/199493/7_lessons_I_wish_I_learned_before_starting_my_first_game_internship.php where a game developer who started just as an intern now regrets the way he behaved when he in his days as an intern also thought that he knew more than all the experienced and highly educated game developers. He thought he was better than them and tried to tell them how they should make the games instead of the way they had chosen. But later he understood why he had been wrong anyway. Fortunately he wasn't fired but actually managed to get promoted to game developer in spite of his behavior.
Generally I don't have huge respect for all modders like you seemed to have. Your messages sounded like you saw them as gods who were able to do things that were magical to you and that you never thought you could do yourself. But I guess that I at least to some degree misunderstood you and I found the links to your career mods on your profile. So sorry for that.
There are huge differences between modders though and I know that I never would have had a discussion like ours with Pescado and it would be very unlikely to have with a super modder like Twallan too. If you can gain respect from a person like Pescado then you can be sure that I will respect and admire you too. But are you at all on http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php too?
I know. The educations as (game) programmer, artist, producer, game designer and so on are all different.
People here mostly think though that the developer in Maxis only have made Sims games because the Sims games are the games they love. But there are other game studios in EA's Redwood headquarter too and even though we don't hear about EA likely moves some of the developers around when needed. A game developer is never specialized in making only one type of games because developers have to be flexible and able to make all kinds of games as their company needs them to do. So I actually doubt if many of the Sims developers chose to make Sims games themselves. More likely they almost all ended up in Maxis just because Maxis was the place that needed more developers at the time and they will likely just move to Bioware games or sports games if EA want them to.
That's odd I found 13 downloads attributed to Neia , 9 of which were mods