@Gruffman all of them. That's the point. You should have the choice. Don't want toddlers? Don't have babies, or just age them up using the birthday cake. You never had to play them. You never had to play vampires either (although that one's a little debatable), and definitely weren't forced to buy supernatural. Same for the grittiness: deviant play was always a choice. And that's really the crux of the matter in the whole TS4 debate: where are the choices?
You can't please all of the people all of the time. We are all customers. How do you listen to what the customers want when they all want different things.
Have you ever heard of the saying, "The customer is always right." If you don't please the customer, you lose the customer. So yes, they should be listening to the customer's wants.
But ... that is part of the problem. Some want toddlers, some don't. Some want cars to return, some don't. Some want vampires, werewolves, plant sims, mummies, some don't. Some want it darker and grittier, some don't.
Which customer should they listen to. It isn't just that easy ... just listen to your customers when the wants from all the customers are all over the place.
It's called options.
Like it was mentioned above, a birthday cake and ticking supernaturals off from a population box takes care of the problem.
And when have people not wanted card? I've personally never seen that request.
Anywhoo, give your customers options. That's the fun in a sandbox game.
I patch it and try to play ts4 every 2 or 3 months before my eyes will roll up into my head and I'll feel the mind-numbing boredom take over. When real life house chores are preferable to playing a game... I don't think that I can classify it as a game anymore. It's a chore and a burden that has no end result and no well-at-least-I'm-finished-with-that-crap satisfaction. Considering that I used to skip school and/or work to play ts2 and ts3, I don't think it's me. Hell, some Saturdays would become Sunday morning sunrises back in my heaviest ts3 playing days. As somebody from EA said with apparent smug animus toward previous fans regarding their new vision, it's not a life simulation game anymore, it's a time management game. Yep. It sure is.
Have you ever heard of the saying, "The customer is always right." If you don't please the customer, you lose the customer. So yes, they should be listening to the customer's wants.
But ... that is part of the problem. Some want toddlers, some don't. Some want cars to return, some don't. Some want vampires, werewolves, plant sims, mummies, some don't. Some want it darker and grittier, some don't.
Which customer should they listen to. It isn't just that easy ... just listen to your customers when the wants from all the customers are all over the place.
You know I don't ever recall on any forum anyone begging Maxis next time they build a game to leave out toddlers, cars, or vampires or werewolves or plant Sims or even mummies. What I saw on TS3 was they wanted other life states in their on EP. But in sixteen years of reading forums (of any kind) about The Sims games I never once saw someone ranting "Maxis, for the love of pete! next time leave out toddlers, and cars etc.'.
And here is a good example of how wrong telemetry is, SGLyndsay said no one is using the voodoo doll in TS4, but I have news, it's because it's lame. I thought it was going to be 'fun'. But using it against another Sim only makes the other Sim happy or playful. How lame can it get? Granted I only worked my Sims up to about level five before giving up on it, because it was.....lame.
She also said she is surprised no one uses all the color options they added to the furniture in this game. I have more news, more than half the time (especially on tables) the colors don't change when you do pick a different color with different trim color. So, no point in bothering, and green in this game isn't green, either on some stuff. And another fact shades of pinks etc. never match etc. So, no point in trying to go through it when half the time it's not working and the other half not matching.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
Have you ever heard of the saying, "The customer is always right." If you don't please the customer, you lose the customer. So yes, they should be listening to the customer's wants.
But ... that is part of the problem. Some want toddlers, some don't. Some want cars to return, some don't. Some want vampires, werewolves, plant sims, mummies, some don't. Some want it darker and grittier, some don't.
Which customer should they listen to. It isn't just that easy ... just listen to your customers when the wants from all the customers are all over the place.
You know I don't ever recall on any forum anyone begging Maxis next time they build a game to leave out toddlers, cars, or vampires or werewolves or plant Sims or even mummies. What I saw on TS3 was they wanted other life states in their on EP. But in sixteen years of reading forums (of any kind) about The Sims games I never once saw someone ranting "Maxis, for the love of pete! next time leave out toddlers, and cars etc.'.
And here is a good example of how wrong telemetry is, SGLyndsay said no one is using the voodoo doll in TS4, but I have news, it's because it's lame. I thought it was going to be 'fun'. But using it against another Sim only makes the other Sim happy or playful. How lame can it get? Granted I only worked my Sims up to about level five before giving up on it, because it was.....lame.
She also said she is surprised no one uses all the color options they added to the furniture in this game. I have more news, more than half the time (especially on tables) the colors don't change when you do pick a different color with different trim color. So, no point in bothering, and green in this game isn't green, either on some stuff. And another fact shades of pinks etc. never match etc. So, no point in trying to go through it when half the time it's not working and the other half not matching.
Yeah, I knew the battle was lost when I read that about the voodoo doll (which I actually did kind of play with... even though their implementation of it added very little gameplay depth and just seemed a tacked on vehicle to add something for their "mischief" skill) and that we don't utilize all of the different shades of brown for the furniture. Instead of doing due diligence and asking "why?" and "how can we make it better?" it's an opportunity for them to throw up their hands and chainsaw hack something else out of the game.
You know I don't ever recall on any forum anyone begging Maxis next time they build a game to leave out toddlers, cars, or vampires or werewolves or plant Sims or even mummies. What I saw on TS3 was they wanted other life states in their on EP. But in sixteen years of reading forums (of any kind) about The Sims games I never once saw someone ranting "Maxis, for the love of pete! next time leave out toddlers, and cars etc.'.
And here is a good example of how wrong telemetry is, SGLyndsay said no one is using the voodoo doll in TS4, but I have news, it's because it's lame. I thought it was going to be 'fun'. But using it against another Sim only makes the other Sim happy or playful. How lame can it get? Granted I only worked my Sims up to about level five before giving up on it, because it was.....lame.
She also said she is surprised no one uses all the color options they added to the furniture in this game. I have more news, more than half the time (especially on tables) the colors don't change when you do pick a different color with different trim color. So, no point in bothering, and green in this game isn't green, either on some stuff. And another fact shades of pinks etc. never match etc. So, no point in trying to go through it when half the time it's not working and the other half not matching.
One step at a time, else I am going to be all over the map.
You are right of course. No simmer told them to leave out toddlers, cars, vampires. But I am sure you have seen many a thread here on the boards of people who want toddlers and those who do not and those who are indifferent. We have threads of those who want open world to return and threads of those who do not. I originally responded to a comment that just said they should listen to their customers ... and I responded to which ones should they listen to. We still have boycott threads pop up ... don't buy anything for Sims4 till "X" is included. You can't please all of the people all of the time, and for everyone who does want something ( say toddlers ) there are people who don't.
I do recall someone on some thread posting about the Sims3 ... they wanted to get a 'kiss under the full moon', but they couldn't use the full phases of the moon because a full moon caused something to happen... I think zombie?. While yes, I guess it was that simmers choice either have the full affects from the moon and have the event happen or get your memory for your story, but it really isn't an option. You can't disable this event ... it will happen under a full moon. No full moon, no event, no full moon, no kiss under the full moon memory. You don't want toddlers, just age them up with a cake. Those aren't options. As much as players ask for options, we don't get them. We never have, we have just found our own solutions to deal with whatever is given.
The voodoo doll. I am not surprised no one uses it. I used it once. It is lame. It did ( and I guess it still does ) have a chance to have some purpose. If telemetry does show anything, it wouldn't surprise me if it shows just how little the mischief skill is used.
And I wish I could have seen the posting about the tables. I could have used a chuckle. I do miss CAST. Sims4 has some good pieces of furniture ... too bad I can't use it. I love this wall paint ... it doesn't go with anything. I like the look of this loveseat ... no matching color for a chair ... I want to use this bed ... nope.
Erm you can just turn full moon on once, get the kiss, turn it back off. The zombies are a bit of a nuisance, yes, but they're also pretty harmless (it's a sims game after all). But how is "You don't want toddlers, just age them up with a cake" not an option? It's a life simulator, after all. Growing up's a part of that - and yet, you don't have to watch it. You can turn aging off, or age your sims up whenever you want. Afaik those are pretty much the only options you can have for that?
What bugs me most is that nowadays sims players seem to think "oh but if they add that, something else will stop working / not be worked on / be removed". How sad is that? We're not even speaking of revolutionary content, just toddlers, more interactions, more traits, maybe a color wheel, emotions that actually work and, in 2014, pools. These are not groundbreaking features that will revolutionize the sims, or that they have to completely reinvent for TS4 (with the exception of emotions .. but I sometimes wonder how long they play test this kind of stuff before they put a price tag on it)
Actually, I rarely hear players / devs of other games say things like "oh well, if you want a management system, we'll take at least 5 coasters out" (Planet Coaster), "oh, you want a story line? Say goodbye to open world then" (GTA), "aha, I heard you'd like more flying scenes? Our hero won't be using his chains anymore then, gotta make choices in life" (God of War).
Never.
Usually they want to add to their games without removing or exchanging already existing features of their previous games. Maybe that's just my impression though.
A choice should be the best option. In TS3 you can turn certain things off in the options so even if you want certain features from an EP, some other features you don't want won't be a burden to you.
Actually, I rarely hear players / devs of other games say things like "oh well, if you want a management system, we'll take at least 5 coasters out" (Planet Coaster), "oh, you want a story line? Say goodbye to open world then" (GTA), "aha, I heard you'd like more flying scenes? Our hero won't be using his chains anymore then, gotta make choices in life" (God of War).
Never.
Usually they want to add to their games without removing or exchanging already existing features of their previous games. Maybe that's just my impression though.
I don't understand why we, the sims fans, are expected to "bargain" for content. It's an unhealthy, hostage-like stance for fans to take and elevates the devs to a pedestal of cruel overseer... neither deserved. I would prefer camaraderie with the devs in helping them with feedback make a successful game that we together can enjoy creating and consuming... instead of the gauntlets that they keep throwing down.
This should be a joyful experience. But it reminds me of early talks by the producers warning sim fans that if ts4 isn't successful then we won't get ts5 and insinuating that it'll be our fault. Um, no... if ts4 isn't successful then YOU should not be employed for the next one and WE will find something else until YOUR REPLACEMENT does it right.
Actually, I rarely hear players / devs of other games say things like "oh well, if you want a management system, we'll take at least 5 coasters out" (Planet Coaster), "oh, you want a story line? Say goodbye to open world then" (GTA), "aha, I heard you'd like more flying scenes? Our hero won't be using his chains anymore then, gotta make choices in life" (God of War).
Never.
Usually they want to add to their games without removing or exchanging already existing features of their previous games. Maybe that's just my impression though.
I suspect you don't hear it because most game companies aren't going to be that up front about those things, but I'm fairly sure it happens. They can't put every single thing into a game that players, or even that THEY may want to include. Time and cost are generally going to put caps on everything that gets done.
People say they want a management system in Planet Coaster but doing so probably means they can't ADD 5 more coasters they were considering adding, including the really awesome one that goes underwater or out into space (I'm totally pulling stuff out of my plum cause I've never played the game). I doubt the creators of Planet Coaster are going to say, "Well, we can give you the management system but that means we can't give you xyz." They'll just make what they think is going to sell the best and not mention the rest.
Obviously with GTA, it wasn't a question between story line and open world, but I think it's also pretty obvious that whatever sandbox play that GTA offers on top of the story, it not as complex or expansive as what gets offered in Sims--meaning, you can't pick any random NPC you want, change how they look, build them a house, get them a job, make them have kids and then switch to some other random NPC the next day to do the same thing. So, there was still a trade off--story line and open world or the ability to control any NPC in the game, on the fly, control their environment, etc.
Maxis has just basically laid it out plainly--we have limited time and budgets for the packs we make so anything that gets included has to be weighed against all the things that we've considered and had to leave out because we can't do it all. But if you think other game companies aren't doing the same, I think you're possibly not recognizing the reality of the business in that category.
Origin ID: ebuchala I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high-functioning psychopath. Reaper
So, for the supposed multitudes of players who don't like toddlers and don't want to play them, some questions: Would you have been outraged if they'd been included in TS4 at launch? If so, would you have refused to buy it? Would you be asking on the forums every day for 2+ years to take them out?
You can choose to ignore them, not play them, or age them up if they're in the game, but you can't pretend they're there when they're not. OPTIONS.
Comments
You can't please all of the people all of the time. We are all customers. How do you listen to what the customers want when they all want different things.
It's called options.
Like it was mentioned above, a birthday cake and ticking supernaturals off from a population box takes care of the problem.
And when have people not wanted card? I've personally never seen that request.
Anywhoo, give your customers options. That's the fun in a sandbox game.
OUTER SENSHI PRIDE
You know I don't ever recall on any forum anyone begging Maxis next time they build a game to leave out toddlers, cars, or vampires or werewolves or plant Sims or even mummies. What I saw on TS3 was they wanted other life states in their on EP. But in sixteen years of reading forums (of any kind) about The Sims games I never once saw someone ranting "Maxis, for the love of pete! next time leave out toddlers, and cars etc.'.
And here is a good example of how wrong telemetry is, SGLyndsay said no one is using the voodoo doll in TS4, but I have news, it's because it's lame. I thought it was going to be 'fun'. But using it against another Sim only makes the other Sim happy or playful. How lame can it get? Granted I only worked my Sims up to about level five before giving up on it, because it was.....lame.
She also said she is surprised no one uses all the color options they added to the furniture in this game. I have more news, more than half the time (especially on tables) the colors don't change when you do pick a different color with different trim color. So, no point in bothering, and green in this game isn't green, either on some stuff. And another fact shades of pinks etc. never match etc. So, no point in trying to go through it when half the time it's not working and the other half not matching.
Yeah, I knew the battle was lost when I read that about the voodoo doll (which I actually did kind of play with... even though their implementation of it added very little gameplay depth and just seemed a tacked on vehicle to add something for their "mischief" skill) and that we don't utilize all of the different shades of brown for the furniture. Instead of doing due diligence and asking "why?" and "how can we make it better?" it's an opportunity for them to throw up their hands and chainsaw hack something else out of the game.
One step at a time, else I am going to be all over the map.
You are right of course. No simmer told them to leave out toddlers, cars, vampires. But I am sure you have seen many a thread here on the boards of people who want toddlers and those who do not and those who are indifferent. We have threads of those who want open world to return and threads of those who do not. I originally responded to a comment that just said they should listen to their customers ... and I responded to which ones should they listen to. We still have boycott threads pop up ... don't buy anything for Sims4 till "X" is included. You can't please all of the people all of the time, and for everyone who does want something ( say toddlers ) there are people who don't.
I do recall someone on some thread posting about the Sims3 ... they wanted to get a 'kiss under the full moon', but they couldn't use the full phases of the moon because a full moon caused something to happen... I think zombie?. While yes, I guess it was that simmers choice either have the full affects from the moon and have the event happen or get your memory for your story, but it really isn't an option. You can't disable this event ... it will happen under a full moon. No full moon, no event, no full moon, no kiss under the full moon memory. You don't want toddlers, just age them up with a cake. Those aren't options. As much as players ask for options, we don't get them. We never have, we have just found our own solutions to deal with whatever is given.
The voodoo doll. I am not surprised no one uses it. I used it once. It is lame. It did ( and I guess it still does ) have a chance to have some purpose. If telemetry does show anything, it wouldn't surprise me if it shows just how little the mischief skill is used.
And I wish I could have seen the posting about the tables. I could have used a chuckle. I do miss CAST. Sims4 has some good pieces of furniture ... too bad I can't use it. I love this wall paint ... it doesn't go with anything. I like the look of this loveseat ... no matching color for a chair ... I want to use this bed ... nope.
What bugs me most is that nowadays sims players seem to think "oh but if they add that, something else will stop working / not be worked on / be removed". How sad is that? We're not even speaking of revolutionary content, just toddlers, more interactions, more traits, maybe a color wheel, emotions that actually work and, in 2014, pools. These are not groundbreaking features that will revolutionize the sims, or that they have to completely reinvent for TS4 (with the exception of emotions .. but I sometimes wonder how long they play test this kind of stuff before they put a price tag on it)
Never.
Usually they want to add to their games without removing or exchanging already existing features of their previous games. Maybe that's just my impression though.
A choice should be the best option. In TS3 you can turn certain things off in the options so even if you want certain features from an EP, some other features you don't want won't be a burden to you.
I don't understand why we, the sims fans, are expected to "bargain" for content. It's an unhealthy, hostage-like stance for fans to take and elevates the devs to a pedestal of cruel overseer... neither deserved. I would prefer camaraderie with the devs in helping them with feedback make a successful game that we together can enjoy creating and consuming... instead of the gauntlets that they keep throwing down.
This should be a joyful experience. But it reminds me of early talks by the producers warning sim fans that if ts4 isn't successful then we won't get ts5 and insinuating that it'll be our fault. Um, no... if ts4 isn't successful then YOU should not be employed for the next one and WE will find something else until YOUR REPLACEMENT does it right.
I suspect you don't hear it because most game companies aren't going to be that up front about those things, but I'm fairly sure it happens. They can't put every single thing into a game that players, or even that THEY may want to include. Time and cost are generally going to put caps on everything that gets done.
People say they want a management system in Planet Coaster but doing so probably means they can't ADD 5 more coasters they were considering adding, including the really awesome one that goes underwater or out into space (I'm totally pulling stuff out of my plum cause I've never played the game). I doubt the creators of Planet Coaster are going to say, "Well, we can give you the management system but that means we can't give you xyz." They'll just make what they think is going to sell the best and not mention the rest.
Obviously with GTA, it wasn't a question between story line and open world, but I think it's also pretty obvious that whatever sandbox play that GTA offers on top of the story, it not as complex or expansive as what gets offered in Sims--meaning, you can't pick any random NPC you want, change how they look, build them a house, get them a job, make them have kids and then switch to some other random NPC the next day to do the same thing. So, there was still a trade off--story line and open world or the ability to control any NPC in the game, on the fly, control their environment, etc.
Maxis has just basically laid it out plainly--we have limited time and budgets for the packs we make so anything that gets included has to be weighed against all the things that we've considered and had to leave out because we can't do it all. But if you think other game companies aren't doing the same, I think you're possibly not recognizing the reality of the business in that category.
I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high-functioning psychopath. Reaper
You can choose to ignore them, not play them, or age them up if they're in the game, but you can't pretend they're there when they're not. OPTIONS.