While researching another game yesterday - different genre & company - I came across some things relating to TS4 that may relate to the current state of affairs.
Market sales: Europe (including Russia west of the Urals) 60%, North & South America 33%, rest of the world 7%.
Perception of game: The forums of a European game producer actually has a page related to TS4, and the overwhelming tone is one of disappointment that the game has gone the way it has, that it has lost the unique qualities that make the Sims the Sims. Many of the posters are veterans from Sims1 onwards through all versions, so know whereof they speak. Some commented they noticed the shift beginning in the latter half of the TS3 run, when the delivered content seemed to be done only to get more $, rather than actually add to the game, and that TS4 has not only continued the trend but has intensified it. There were also fears expressed that Sims would become 'yet another' game that EA runs into the ground. There was not a single angry post, just sadness, and hoping that said company would take on the challenge of giving some competition to jolt the EA monopoly out of its complacency. Kinda makes you wonder.
I think in this situation it is important to remember that people who are dissatisfied are more likely to voice their opinions. People who like the game and what the developers are doing don't really have to say anything. They just play the game and enjoy. This lack of input from people with other opinions/views can make it seem as though the dissatisfied are the majority, even if that isn't true. (It's part of voluntary response bias).
Additionally, not all dedicated Sims players are on this forum. I've been playing Sims since I had access to a computer, and would buy/ask for any packs I could get my hands on. I had no idea this even existed until earlier this month. I have friends that have been just as invested in the game as I have, and if I mentioned this forum they wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about. This forum (or any forum) can be kind of a bubble. Even if a consensus is reached here that the game sucks, you have to remember that the majority of the world is outside the bubble, and those opinions matter too.
Finally, developers are people. They get involved in game development not because it's the easiest or most profitable, but because they're passionate about it. They want to make things they love, things that are great enough to make other people love them too. If there are issues with the game, they aren't happy about them either. If things aren't being fixed there's a reason. Maybe it's time, maybe it's funding, maybe it's EA. Sure, get mad at the company and the big corporate execs that only see this as $$$, but don't take it out on the developers that are trying their best and giving it their all.
I think in this situation it is important to remember that people who are dissatisfied are more likely to voice their opinions. People who like the game and what the developers are doing don't really have to say anything. They just play the game and enjoy. This lack of input from people with other opinions/views can make it seem as though the dissatisfied are the majority, even if that isn't true. (It's part of voluntary response bias).
Additionally, not all dedicated Sims players are on this forum. I've been playing Sims since I had access to a computer, and would buy/ask for any packs I could get my hands on. I had no idea this even existed until earlier this month. I have friends that have been just as invested in the game as I have, and if I mentioned this forum they wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about. This forum (or any forum) can be kind of a bubble. Even if a consensus is reached here that the game plum, you have to remember that the majority of the world is outside the bubble, and those opinions matter too.
Finally, developers are people. They get involved in game development not because it's the easiest or most profitable, but because they're passionate about it. They want to make things they love, things that are great enough to make other people love them too. If there are issues with the game, they aren't happy about them either. If things aren't being fixed there's a reason. Maybe it's time, maybe it's funding, maybe it's EA. Sure, get mad at the company and the big corporate execs that only see this as $$$, but don't take it out on the developers that are trying their best and giving it their all.
I agree to disagree.
There are those people that are so dissatisfied, they just left the Sims period without a reason or explanation (we often forget these people).
There are those that play until they find a better game to play. These people also don't really have to say anything. And let's not forget the people who just do not play EA games anymore, because they got burned more than once (I know several people (my husband really more than me) that just refused to support EA games).
There are a few game companies out there that take pride in their work. Rockstar, Blizzard, smaller companies and the one man developer. It shows in their work. It shows when they listen to their consumers. These mentioned game companies show their passion as well (the companies I mention above).
This is why these forums are disregard for the most... because the dissatisfaction here is not little. It would not hurt this company to listen to their own forums over social gabbing places. The OP has a great idea. Even if it is just one person, that one person is a customer. Not listening to customers that are dissatisfied is a bad flaw for any company...Not just this one.
I think in this situation it is important to remember that people who are dissatisfied are more likely to voice their opinions. People who like the game and what the developers are doing don't really have to say anything. They just play the game and enjoy.
That is completely untrue.
You must not play many other games besides TS. Go back in history and read up on some of the more successful game launches. When a game is good and people are satisfied, they talk as loudly as the "complainers". Anybody who disagrees with this is deluding themselves.
Also, EA is not charity. Quit this "oh developers are trying so hard!" b*s. Of course they're trying, they have to, you know? Because it's their job. I refuse to praise them for the bare minimum.
I don't do Twitter or tweet or a lot of Social Media for personal reasons. Why should I have to sign up for a service I won't use, don't plan to use just to be heard. I come to the forums for a reason and that is to help folks with problems with their games and to find out the latest news on all things Sim.
EA should take a lesson from Bungie and the Destiny community. Their players are just a vocal as the Simmers are (I know because my husband plays Destiny) and they actually "listen" to their players. Both the positive feedback and the negative. They try to address or explain why "x,y,z" can or cannot be added to the game.
With Sims 4, the game engine is very limited compared to previous versions of the game. Why? Because Sims 4 was supposed to be an "online" game that the Developers had to change direction in at the last minute. I do agree that some options could have been better thought out.
Second Star to the Right and Straight on 'til Morning.
I think in this situation it is important to remember that people who are dissatisfied are more likely to voice their opinions. People who like the game and what the developers are doing don't really have to say anything. They just play the game and enjoy. This lack of input from people with other opinions/views can make it seem as though the dissatisfied are the majority, even if that isn't true. (It's part of voluntary response bias).
Additionally, not all dedicated Sims players are on this forum. I've been playing Sims since I had access to a computer, and would buy/ask for any packs I could get my hands on. I had no idea this even existed until earlier this month. I have friends that have been just as invested in the game as I have, and if I mentioned this forum they wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about. This forum (or any forum) can be kind of a bubble. Even if a consensus is reached here that the game plum, you have to remember that the majority of the world is outside the bubble, and those opinions matter too.
Finally, developers are people. They get involved in game development not because it's the easiest or most profitable, but because they're passionate about it. They want to make things they love, things that are great enough to make other people love them too. If there are issues with the game, they aren't happy about them either. If things aren't being fixed there's a reason. Maybe it's time, maybe it's funding, maybe it's EA. Sure, get mad at the company and the big corporate execs that only see this as $$$, but don't take it out on the developers that are trying their best and giving it their all.
The backlash from The Sims 4 has been everywhere. YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, these forums, other fansite forums, etc. It's not only contained in these forums, however, it may seem that way because topics that criticize TS4 here tend to be bumped to the front typically from much ongoing debate and discussion.
Developers are people, yes. And I can tell these developers are passionate about what they make. However, like the whole backlash with Battlefront II that EA is facing, the disappointment is mostly directed at the management, rather than the developers themselves. And, with good reason. It's shocking EA gave the okay to release TS4 the way it was at launch, missing both very crucial and reoccurring features that have been present in the past base games. And it's highly questionable why they chose to have an individual with mostly mobile development try and lead a team which is supposed to be the top-dog in life simulation innovation, many times reaching the #1 PC game sold title, multiple times.
Virtually everything wrong with TS4 can be traced back to EA, and it was well-deserved. Whether you like(d) the game or hate it, chances are you have (or once had) much to say about it.
Honestly, consider me a newbie if it pleases you, but I've been lurking here long enough to know that there's this weird...thing, against positivity that goes on around here. To see it for yourself, just head on over to the Sims 4 General Discussion and dig out any positive thread about ts4, and watch that one, single negative post among a whole sea of other positive/neutral ones get hit with a whole barrage of insightful's, like's and awesome's. Then go on over to any thread with a pessimistic intonation such as this one, and watch how that one positive remark in it get either trampled over and ignored at best, or burned on a barbecue stick at worst.
The thing is, disappointment is a far more influential feeling than satisfaction/contentment. It's what makes people get tribal. When people are disappointed, it gives them all the incentive in the world to take some sort of action on it, and said action most likely includes voicing out their own complaints and concerns. Like-minded people, who are already unhappy in some way, likewise feel all the more urged to flock naturally to these given insights, and this is where group-think starts to form. Satisfaction, on the other hand, is ineffectual fairy floss by comparison. I mean, what can you do - or, more accurately - what MORE do you have to do, when you're already happy with a product, really? What exactly do you have to contribute to a discussion besides casting a few positive remarks of your own? Casting positive remarks left and right isn't going to earn you any revolutionary group-think beyond some surface-level support and a few complacent nods here and there, it isn't going to contribute to any improvements whatsoever in said product (which is what the feedback section is all about), and even if it does offer some new perspectives to a discussion, who's to say that it won't get labeled and overlooked as some sort of typical attempt at a cheer-up/think-positive speech? What are you supposed to do with that satisfaction, then, aside from savoring it for yourself? Nothing. Whatever positive input you provide at discussion forums is just going to float about aimlessly there, and why wouldn't it, when disappointed rants/suggestions/etc. spark so much more interesting discussions in comparison? Your best bet is to probably head on over to those "happy play threads" and "what do you like about x" kind of threads that so often resurface around here. Other than that, there really isn't much room around these kinds of forums for those who wish to voice their satisfaction on the game/product (whenever they're not enjoying the game/product for themselves).
With that in mind, it isn't exactly hard to believe that most of the people who like the game would turn away from discussion forums such as this (or even other sources such as Youtube, Facebook etc.). Of course, I'm not saying that as a fact, as I obviously have no statistical data that shows that people enjoying ts4 are indeed the majority (and I doubt anyone can prove that vice-versa is true, either. Though if you have any evidence that may point towards that, I welcome you to prove me wrong). But I wouldn't be surprised if meredithv's statements do end up holding some sort of truth.
I use the "Number Online" (found on the game gallery home page) to get a feel of what players really think of this game. The numbers are about half of what they use to be in the first 3 months of the game. It does fluctuate, especially around release time of Packs. City Life saw a bigger upsurge than any of the other packs but the one that took the numbers back to where they were in the beginning was the Vampire pack. Of course, I'm sure I don't need to remind anyone what else was introduced with that pack!
^Is that the norm for previous iterations? I mean, I can see how people would get bored after a while of EA-silence (especially considering the fact that this game is still incomplete as of now), and regaining their interest after a new pack is released.
Honestly, consider me a newbie if it pleases you, but I've been lurking here long enough to know that there's this weird...thing, against positivity that goes on around here. To see it for yourself, just head on over to the Sims 4 General Discussion and dig out any positive thread about ts4, and watch that one, single negative post among a whole sea of other positive/neutral ones get hit with a whole barrage of insightful's, like's and awesome's. Then go on over to any thread with a pessimistic intonation such as this one, and watch how that one positive remark in it get either trampled over and ignored at best, or burned on a barbecue stick at worst.
The thing is, disappointment is a far more influential feeling than satisfaction/contentment. It's what makes people get tribal. When people are disappointed, it gives them all the incentive in the world to take some sort of action on it, and said action most likely includes voicing out their own complaints and concerns. Like-minded people, who are already unhappy in some way, likewise feel all the more urged to flock naturally to these given insights, and this is where group-think starts to form. Satisfaction, on the other hand, is ineffectual fairy floss by comparison. I mean, what can you do - or, more accurately - what MORE do you have to do, when you're already happy with a product, really? What exactly do you have to contribute to a discussion besides casting a few positive remarks of your own? Casting positive remarks left and right isn't going to earn you any revolutionary group-think beyond some surface-level support and a few complacent nods here and there, it isn't going to contribute to any improvements whatsoever in said product (which is what the feedback section is all about), and even if it does offer some new perspectives to a discussion, who's to say that it won't get labeled and overlooked as some sort of typical attempt at a cheer-up/think-positive speech? What are you supposed to do with that satisfaction, then, aside from savoring it for yourself? Nothing. Whatever positive input you provide at discussion forums is just going to float about aimlessly there, and why wouldn't it, when disappointed rants/suggestions/etc. spark so much more interesting discussions in comparison? Your best bet is to probably head on over to those "happy play threads" and "what do you like about x" kind of threads that so often resurface around here. Other than that, there really isn't much room around these kinds of forums for those who wish to voice their satisfaction on the game/product (whenever they're not enjoying the game/product for themselves).
With that in mind, it isn't exactly hard to believe that most of the people who like the game would turn away from discussion forums such as this (or even other sources such as Youtube, Facebook etc.). Of course, I'm not saying that as a fact, as I obviously have no statistical data that shows that people enjoying ts4 are indeed the majority (and I doubt anyone can prove that vice-versa is true, either. Though if you have any evidence that may point towards that, I welcome you to prove me wrong). But I wouldn't be surprised if meredithv's statements do end up holding some sort of truth.
Uh? I'm active in all three of the most "positive" threads on this forum - Happy Play Thread, Favorite Screenshot and What Happened In Your Game Today. Never Have I seen a troll there. Literally, never. Not even before I even joined the forum and started participating. I could literally go to General Discussion now and bring you a complete list of "happy" threads that are thriving with positivity, free of people who don't like TS4 because they're just not interested. I know they're there. I browse them almost every day.
You know what I see frequently, though? Threads people create in order to vent with other users who are displeased in a constructive, calm manner, get flooded with people telling them to stop being negative and belittling them for literally everything they have to say and being terribly condescending while at it.
You are exaggerating. Very, very much exaggerating. All of you who say that positivity on this forum is so "oppressed" are blowing things out of proportion BIG TIME. And it's because y'all don't know where to hang out on this forum in the first place, and CONSTANTLY insert yourselves into spaces not meant for you.
Honestly, consider me a newbie if it pleases you, but I've been lurking here long enough to know that there's this weird...thing, against positivity that goes on around here. To see it for yourself, just head on over to the Sims 4 General Discussion and dig out any positive thread about ts4, and watch that one, single negative post among a whole sea of other positive/neutral ones get hit with a whole barrage of insightful's, like's and awesome's. Then go on over to any thread with a pessimistic intonation such as this one, and watch how that one positive remark in it get either trampled over and ignored at best, or burned on a barbecue stick at worst.
The thing is, disappointment is a far more influential feeling than satisfaction/contentment. It's what makes people get tribal. When people are disappointed, it gives them all the incentive in the world to take some sort of action on it, and said action most likely includes voicing out their own complaints and concerns. Like-minded people, who are already unhappy in some way, likewise feel all the more urged to flock naturally to these given insights, and this is where group-think starts to form. Satisfaction, on the other hand, is ineffectual fairy floss by comparison. I mean, what can you do - or, more accurately - what MORE do you have to do, when you're already happy with a product, really? What exactly do you have to contribute to a discussion besides casting a few positive remarks of your own? Casting positive remarks left and right isn't going to earn you any revolutionary group-think beyond some surface-level support and a few complacent nods here and there, it isn't going to contribute to any improvements whatsoever in said product (which is what the feedback section is all about), and even if it does offer some new perspectives to a discussion, who's to say that it won't get labeled and overlooked as some sort of typical attempt at a cheer-up/think-positive speech? What are you supposed to do with that satisfaction, then, aside from savoring it for yourself? Nothing. Whatever positive input you provide at discussion forums is just going to float about aimlessly there, and why wouldn't it, when disappointed rants/suggestions/etc. spark so much more interesting discussions in comparison? Your best bet is to probably head on over to those "happy play threads" and "what do you like about x" kind of threads that so often resurface around here. Other than that, there really isn't much room around these kinds of forums for those who wish to voice their satisfaction on the game/product (whenever they're not enjoying the game/product for themselves).
With that in mind, it isn't exactly hard to believe that most of the people who like the game would turn away from discussion forums such as this (or even other sources such as Youtube, Facebook etc.). Of course, I'm not saying that as a fact, as I obviously have no statistical data that shows that people enjoying ts4 are indeed the majority (and I doubt anyone can prove that vice-versa is true, either. Though if you have any evidence that may point towards that, I welcome you to prove me wrong). But I wouldn't be surprised if meredithv's statements do end up holding some sort of truth.
Uh? I'm active in all three of the most "positive" threads on this forum - Happy Play Thread, Favorite Screenshot and What Happened In Your Game Today. Never Have I seen a troll there. Literally, never. Not even before I even joined the forum and started participating. I could literally go to General Discussion now and bring you a complete list of "happy" threads that are thriving with positivity, free of people who don't like TS4 because they're just not interested. I know they're there. I browse them almost every day.
You know what I see frequently, though? Threads people create in order to vent with other users who are displeased in a constructive, calm manner, get flooded with people telling them to stop being negative and belittling them for literally everything they have to say and being terribly condescending while at it.
You are exaggerating. Very, very much exaggerating. All of you who say that positivity on this forum is so "oppressed" are blowing things out of proportion BIG TIME. And it's because y'all don't know where to hang out on this forum in the first place, and CONSTANTLY insert yourselves into spaces not meant for you.
Which is what "complainers" don't do. Period.
Wish I could awesome this more than once. As a ‘complainer’ myself, I wouldn’t dare step into he happy play thread and say anything negitive 1. Because most people know how I feel and 2. Because it’s *their* space to be happy. Why would I go into a happy place when I’m not happy with the place?
^Is that the norm for previous iterations? I mean, I can see how people would get bored after a while of EA-silence (especially considering the fact that this game is still incomplete as of now), and regaining their interest after a new pack is released.
If your statement was directed to me ... I don't know if it is the norm as we haven't had the gallery before showing how many people online at a time. I suspect there is always a certain percentage in any game that "buy and try" and decide it's not for them. I started watching those numbers as I quite often saw how EA would say, in effect, the game is going great because of their sales. But I know how many games I have bought and either never played or tried playing and didn't like. (and I know I'm not alone in that) So sales really mean nothing.
I use the "Number Online" (found on the game gallery home page) to get a feel of what players really think of this game. The numbers are about half of what they use to be in the first 3 months of the game. It does fluctuate, especially around release time of Packs. City Life saw a bigger upsurge than any of the other packs but the one that took the numbers back to where they were in the beginning was the Vampire pack. Of course, I'm sure I don't need to remind anyone what else was introduced with that pack!
Of course, that number doesn't count the people who play offline (some get better game performance offline than online, others only go online when they know they're going to be downloading or uploading to the community Gallery or to download the latest patch), but your point is taken. People are at different points in their lives with regards to playing; I've had trouble getting into the game mainly because I've been dealing with family issues, such as a family member's death plus another one winding up in the hospital for a few days. Once I'm past the memorial service this weekend I might be able to get my head in a better space to play.
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> @agustd said: > Lavenderlights wrote: » > > Uh? I'm active in all three of the most "positive" threads on this forum - Happy Play Thread, Favorite Screenshot and What Happened In Your Game Today. Never Have I seen a troll there. Literally, never. Not even before I even joined the forum and started participating. I could literally go to General Discussion now and bring you a complete list of "happy" threads that are thriving with positivity, free of people who don't like TS4 because they're just not interested. I know they're there. I browse them almost every day. > > You know what I see frequently, though? Threads people create in order to vent with other users who are displeased in a constructive, calm manner, get flooded with people telling them to stop being negative and belittling them for literally everything they have to say and being terribly condescending while at it. > > You are exaggerating. Very, very much exaggerating. All of you who say that positivity on this forum is so "oppressed" are blowing things out of proportion BIG TIME. And it's because y'all don't know where to hang out on this forum in the first place, and CONSTANTLY insert yourselves into spaces not meant for you. > > Which is what "complainers" don't do. Period.
When did I ever mention trolls? I'm talking about people who come into those 'what do you like about ts4?" kind of threads and insert remarks such as "well, it makes me like x version more" (or some other variation) and get a whole barrage of support (like a bunch of awesome's and stuff). And then you have those actually positive remarks that get like...I dunno, a few like's and maybe a few agreements at best? What's worse is that those negative/snider remarks ALWAYS seem to be the most impactful when it comes to changing the tone of the thread (sometimes accompanied by the whole "agreed 100%" flock mentality that follows afterwards). Also, when I said "positive threads", of course I'm not including those three "positive" threads you mentioned in the beginning of your post - why would anyone who dislikes ts4 hang out there? Since they most likely aren't playing, why would they have any screenshots/stories to contribute? Rather, i'm talking about those kinds of threads that are asking for some sort of positive input and end up having their intended tone flipped over instead.
On the other hand, I've rarely -if ever- seen any venting threads and the like get "invaded" by positivity before. You seem to have very different experiences here than me. What I'm seeing here is those who even DARE set foot into threads like this and ask people to "stop complaining" gets their heads bitten off faster than a grizzly bear ripping open its' prey. Care to direct me to one of those threads that "gets flooded with people telling them to stop being negative and belittling them for literally everything they have to say and being terribly condescending while at it"? I really, really am bewildered by the possibility that these threads would actually EXIST.
I use the "Number Online" (found on the game gallery home page) to get a feel of what players really think of this game. The numbers are about half of what they use to be in the first 3 months of the game. It does fluctuate, especially around release time of Packs. City Life saw a bigger upsurge than any of the other packs but the one that took the numbers back to where they were in the beginning was the Vampire pack. Of course, I'm sure I don't need to remind anyone what else was introduced with that pack!
Of course, that number doesn't count the people who play offline (some get better game performance offline than online, others only go online when they know they're going to be downloading or uploading to the community Gallery or to download the latest patch), but your point is taken. People are at different points in their lives with regards to playing; I've had trouble getting into the game mainly because I've been dealing with family issues, such as a family member's death plus another one winding up in the hospital for a few days. Once I'm past the memorial service this weekend I might be able to get my head in a better space to play.
True, it doesn't count those who play offline but Sales can't measure the people who play for an hour and never play again. Social media places can't count those who don't speak or visit the sites. At the end of the day I still think it is the most reliable measure there is to gauge just how well liked the game is and if I am correct then it's not liked as much now as it was in the beginning.
Here's the problem with Sims 4 in the beginning. The base game should be fun to play by itself without Seasons or Pets or University or whatever. The base game was horrible and boring and most people played for a short time and then quit. I tried the 24 hour free Origin trial and found it entertaining, but soon got bored with it and didn't buy it right away.
When the game was finally ported to the Mac OS (yes I play on a Mac), I did end up buying it and I think there were a few Stuff Packs available at the time which I got also. As more and more EPs, SPs and GPs have been added, I've spent more time exploring the game and having fun. Yes, I still play Sims 2 and 3, as I find them fun as well. Are there things that could have been improved in Sims 4? Yes, there are. Sims 4 isn't perfect, but neither are 2 and 3.
I do think that many initial decisions could have been handled better and I hope that the EA/Maxis executives have learned from them as well as the initial mistakes made with Star Wars Battlefront II or Dragon Age or any other EA title.
Second Star to the Right and Straight on 'til Morning.
Actually the number have doubled daily from what they were back in December of 2016. Everyday I see about 60,000 - 70,000 playing when I play and week-ends is often higher. Last December even with the new CL pack the average players were around 28,000 -32,000 and that was mostly on week-ends. So this year the numbers are back and staying pretty much there on most days. Last night when I was playing - here it was a Tuesday night here in the USA- and there were 72,000 playing.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
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In REALITY, I simply exist.....
As of about 30 seconds ago, 43,492 online. As far as how many unhappy folks go, I remember from customer service training ages ago that one formal complaint received = 1000 unhappy folks who don't communicate for whatever reason. I have no idea how many different simmers have expressed their unhappiness, here or elsewhere, but even with the multiplier what is the percentage of gripes to buyers? Would not be surprised that unless that percentage passes some threshold the game will be judged satisfactory by corporate and treated accordingly. The exception to that would be the game's equivalent of hitting the iceberg.
> @Triplis said: > To7m wrote: » > > Same logic applies; just because you *dont* want it, why remove it from the game entirely? That’s the entire point. The Sims is a game of options and choices - sorry, but what on EARTH possessed the devs to think it would be ok to remove basic pet needs or not be able to be a CHEF in your own restaurant? On what planet is that even a logical choice? Most restaurant owners I know (and I know several) ALL cook their own food. All of them. > > > I used to play this game because of all the options it offered me. Now we’re kinda forced to play a certain way because of 1. The way the game is made and 2. Because the community can’t grasp the fact that because something is IN the game in the first place, you *dont* actually have to use it. > > —T > > > > They didn't "remove" it. They chose not to create it and add it. > > I'm starting to think that if there is a Sims 5, they should just throw everything out but the most basic of sims concepts and start over. And then instead of rehashing packs, make entirely new stuff. Cause it seems they're asked nonstop to repeat what past games did (but better), but if they fall short on even one thing, they've committed a creative crime of the highest order. > > They're a team of professionals and I expect them to excel, considering the price tag. But the expectations being placed on them with regards to repeat content are too often unrealistic. Players assume that something they consider essential is essential in the minds of the developers and then get mad when that essential thing is missing. > > I have no interest in defending the greed of publishers, but plummed if I watch devs getting taken to task for not being perfect. The amount of myth and magical thinking that surrounds the powers of devs is out of hand. Criticize and complain all you want, but realize that devs aren't mind-readers and they have no magical powers. Sometimes they have different priorities than player 23502 and sometimes they just don't know what player 23502 wants. And sometimes they know exactly what player 23502 wants and they want to give it to them, but they don't have the time or the resources.
Do you understand why games get different versions? Most games move on because of graphics. Often games like World of Warcraft took years before they updated characters because they were afraid of putting out subscribers who couldn't afford newer computers but like all things that has to change because of OS changes. The same with the Sims 4.
People want the stuff they use to play because they liked it & it worked for them. You can't hold it against people for wanting to see the content they loved be updated & brought to the current game. According to everything I have read, they had a winning setup with Sims 3. I've never played it but I wish I had. Still thinking of it. Sure with every game there are issues but if EA/Maxis would have stuck with it & just fixed the known issues & placed it with newer graphics they wouldn't have to worry about where the money was coming from because I can guarantee that people would be throwing their money at them. The fact that they are not pushing the limits with new, updated game packs & expansions just seems to show that they lack the love they use to hold for their game.
Comments
Market sales: Europe (including Russia west of the Urals) 60%, North & South America 33%, rest of the world 7%.
Perception of game: The forums of a European game producer actually has a page related to TS4, and the overwhelming tone is one of disappointment that the game has gone the way it has, that it has lost the unique qualities that make the Sims the Sims. Many of the posters are veterans from Sims1 onwards through all versions, so know whereof they speak. Some commented they noticed the shift beginning in the latter half of the TS3 run, when the delivered content seemed to be done only to get more $, rather than actually add to the game, and that TS4 has not only continued the trend but has intensified it. There were also fears expressed that Sims would become 'yet another' game that EA runs into the ground. There was not a single angry post, just sadness, and hoping that said company would take on the challenge of giving some competition to jolt the EA monopoly out of its complacency. Kinda makes you wonder.
Additionally, not all dedicated Sims players are on this forum. I've been playing Sims since I had access to a computer, and would buy/ask for any packs I could get my hands on. I had no idea this even existed until earlier this month. I have friends that have been just as invested in the game as I have, and if I mentioned this forum they wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about. This forum (or any forum) can be kind of a bubble. Even if a consensus is reached here that the game sucks, you have to remember that the majority of the world is outside the bubble, and those opinions matter too.
Finally, developers are people. They get involved in game development not because it's the easiest or most profitable, but because they're passionate about it. They want to make things they love, things that are great enough to make other people love them too. If there are issues with the game, they aren't happy about them either. If things aren't being fixed there's a reason. Maybe it's time, maybe it's funding, maybe it's EA. Sure, get mad at the company and the big corporate execs that only see this as $$$, but don't take it out on the developers that are trying their best and giving it their all.
I agree to disagree.
There are those people that are so dissatisfied, they just left the Sims period without a reason or explanation (we often forget these people).
There are those that play until they find a better game to play. These people also don't really have to say anything. And let's not forget the people who just do not play EA games anymore, because they got burned more than once (I know several people (my husband really more than me) that just refused to support EA games).
There are a few game companies out there that take pride in their work. Rockstar, Blizzard, smaller companies and the one man developer. It shows in their work. It shows when they listen to their consumers. These mentioned game companies show their passion as well (the companies I mention above).
This is why these forums are disregard for the most... because the dissatisfaction here is not little. It would not hurt this company to listen to their own forums over social gabbing places. The OP has a great idea. Even if it is just one person, that one person is a customer. Not listening to customers that are dissatisfied is a bad flaw for any company...Not just this one.
That is completely untrue.
You must not play many other games besides TS. Go back in history and read up on some of the more successful game launches. When a game is good and people are satisfied, they talk as loudly as the "complainers". Anybody who disagrees with this is deluding themselves.
Also, EA is not charity. Quit this "oh developers are trying so hard!" b*s. Of course they're trying, they have to, you know? Because it's their job. I refuse to praise them for the bare minimum.
EA should take a lesson from Bungie and the Destiny community. Their players are just a vocal as the Simmers are (I know because my husband plays Destiny) and they actually "listen" to their players. Both the positive feedback and the negative. They try to address or explain why "x,y,z" can or cannot be added to the game.
With Sims 4, the game engine is very limited compared to previous versions of the game. Why? Because Sims 4 was supposed to be an "online" game that the Developers had to change direction in at the last minute. I do agree that some options could have been better thought out.
The backlash from The Sims 4 has been everywhere. YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, these forums, other fansite forums, etc. It's not only contained in these forums, however, it may seem that way because topics that criticize TS4 here tend to be bumped to the front typically from much ongoing debate and discussion.
Developers are people, yes. And I can tell these developers are passionate about what they make. However, like the whole backlash with Battlefront II that EA is facing, the disappointment is mostly directed at the management, rather than the developers themselves. And, with good reason. It's shocking EA gave the okay to release TS4 the way it was at launch, missing both very crucial and reoccurring features that have been present in the past base games. And it's highly questionable why they chose to have an individual with mostly mobile development try and lead a team which is supposed to be the top-dog in life simulation innovation, many times reaching the #1 PC game sold title, multiple times.
Virtually everything wrong with TS4 can be traced back to EA, and it was well-deserved. Whether you like(d) the game or hate it, chances are you have (or once had) much to say about it.
Honestly, consider me a newbie if it pleases you, but I've been lurking here long enough to know that there's this weird...thing, against positivity that goes on around here. To see it for yourself, just head on over to the Sims 4 General Discussion and dig out any positive thread about ts4, and watch that one, single negative post among a whole sea of other positive/neutral ones get hit with a whole barrage of insightful's, like's and awesome's. Then go on over to any thread with a pessimistic intonation such as this one, and watch how that one positive remark in it get either trampled over and ignored at best, or burned on a barbecue stick at worst.
The thing is, disappointment is a far more influential feeling than satisfaction/contentment. It's what makes people get tribal. When people are disappointed, it gives them all the incentive in the world to take some sort of action on it, and said action most likely includes voicing out their own complaints and concerns. Like-minded people, who are already unhappy in some way, likewise feel all the more urged to flock naturally to these given insights, and this is where group-think starts to form. Satisfaction, on the other hand, is ineffectual fairy floss by comparison. I mean, what can you do - or, more accurately - what MORE do you have to do, when you're already happy with a product, really? What exactly do you have to contribute to a discussion besides casting a few positive remarks of your own? Casting positive remarks left and right isn't going to earn you any revolutionary group-think beyond some surface-level support and a few complacent nods here and there, it isn't going to contribute to any improvements whatsoever in said product (which is what the feedback section is all about), and even if it does offer some new perspectives to a discussion, who's to say that it won't get labeled and overlooked as some sort of typical attempt at a cheer-up/think-positive speech? What are you supposed to do with that satisfaction, then, aside from savoring it for yourself? Nothing. Whatever positive input you provide at discussion forums is just going to float about aimlessly there, and why wouldn't it, when disappointed rants/suggestions/etc. spark so much more interesting discussions in comparison? Your best bet is to probably head on over to those "happy play threads" and "what do you like about x" kind of threads that so often resurface around here. Other than that, there really isn't much room around these kinds of forums for those who wish to voice their satisfaction on the game/product (whenever they're not enjoying the game/product for themselves).
With that in mind, it isn't exactly hard to believe that most of the people who like the game would turn away from discussion forums such as this (or even other sources such as Youtube, Facebook etc.). Of course, I'm not saying that as a fact, as I obviously have no statistical data that shows that people enjoying ts4 are indeed the majority (and I doubt anyone can prove that vice-versa is true, either. Though if you have any evidence that may point towards that, I welcome you to prove me wrong). But I wouldn't be surprised if meredithv's statements do end up holding some sort of truth.
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Uh? I'm active in all three of the most "positive" threads on this forum - Happy Play Thread, Favorite Screenshot and What Happened In Your Game Today. Never Have I seen a troll there. Literally, never. Not even before I even joined the forum and started participating. I could literally go to General Discussion now and bring you a complete list of "happy" threads that are thriving with positivity, free of people who don't like TS4 because they're just not interested. I know they're there. I browse them almost every day.
You know what I see frequently, though? Threads people create in order to vent with other users who are displeased in a constructive, calm manner, get flooded with people telling them to stop being negative and belittling them for literally everything they have to say and being terribly condescending while at it.
You are exaggerating. Very, very much exaggerating. All of you who say that positivity on this forum is so "oppressed" are blowing things out of proportion BIG TIME. And it's because y'all don't know where to hang out on this forum in the first place, and CONSTANTLY insert yourselves into spaces not meant for you.
Which is what "complainers" don't do. Period.
Wish I could awesome this more than once. As a ‘complainer’ myself, I wouldn’t dare step into he happy play thread and say anything negitive 1. Because most people know how I feel and 2. Because it’s *their* space to be happy. Why would I go into a happy place when I’m not happy with the place?
—T
If your statement was directed to me ... I don't know if it is the norm as we haven't had the gallery before showing how many people online at a time. I suspect there is always a certain percentage in any game that "buy and try" and decide it's not for them. I started watching those numbers as I quite often saw how EA would say, in effect, the game is going great because of their sales. But I know how many games I have bought and either never played or tried playing and didn't like. (and I know I'm not alone in that) So sales really mean nothing.
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Of course, that number doesn't count the people who play offline (some get better game performance offline than online, others only go online when they know they're going to be downloading or uploading to the community Gallery or to download the latest patch), but your point is taken. People are at different points in their lives with regards to playing; I've had trouble getting into the game mainly because I've been dealing with family issues, such as a family member's death plus another one winding up in the hospital for a few days. Once I'm past the memorial service this weekend I might be able to get my head in a better space to play.
Fun must be always -- Tomas Hertl (San Jose Sharks hockey player)
> Lavenderlights wrote: »
>
> Uh? I'm active in all three of the most "positive" threads on this forum - Happy Play Thread, Favorite Screenshot and What Happened In Your Game Today. Never Have I seen a troll there. Literally, never. Not even before I even joined the forum and started participating. I could literally go to General Discussion now and bring you a complete list of "happy" threads that are thriving with positivity, free of people who don't like TS4 because they're just not interested. I know they're there. I browse them almost every day.
>
> You know what I see frequently, though? Threads people create in order to vent with other users who are displeased in a constructive, calm manner, get flooded with people telling them to stop being negative and belittling them for literally everything they have to say and being terribly condescending while at it.
>
> You are exaggerating. Very, very much exaggerating. All of you who say that positivity on this forum is so "oppressed" are blowing things out of proportion BIG TIME. And it's because y'all don't know where to hang out on this forum in the first place, and CONSTANTLY insert yourselves into spaces not meant for you.
>
> Which is what "complainers" don't do. Period.
When did I ever mention trolls? I'm talking about people who come into those 'what do you like about ts4?" kind of threads and insert remarks such as "well, it makes me like x version more" (or some other variation) and get a whole barrage of support (like a bunch of awesome's and stuff). And then you have those actually positive remarks that get like...I dunno, a few like's and maybe a few agreements at best? What's worse is that those negative/snider remarks ALWAYS seem to be the most impactful when it comes to changing the tone of the thread (sometimes accompanied by the whole "agreed 100%" flock mentality that follows afterwards). Also, when I said "positive threads", of course I'm not including those three "positive" threads you mentioned in the beginning of your post - why would anyone who dislikes ts4 hang out there? Since they most likely aren't playing, why would they have any screenshots/stories to contribute? Rather, i'm talking about those kinds of threads that are asking for some sort of positive input and end up having their intended tone flipped over instead.
On the other hand, I've rarely -if ever- seen any venting threads and the like get "invaded" by positivity before. You seem to have very different experiences here than me. What I'm seeing here is those who even DARE set foot into threads like this and ask people to "stop complaining" gets their heads bitten off faster than a grizzly bear ripping open its' prey. Care to direct me to one of those threads that "gets flooded with people telling them to stop being negative and belittling them for literally everything they have to say and being terribly condescending while at it"? I really, really am bewildered by the possibility that these threads would actually EXIST.
PS. Not being able to mention properly is annoying as plum > <
True, it doesn't count those who play offline but Sales can't measure the people who play for an hour and never play again. Social media places can't count those who don't speak or visit the sites. At the end of the day I still think it is the most reliable measure there is to gauge just how well liked the game is and if I am correct then it's not liked as much now as it was in the beginning.
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When the game was finally ported to the Mac OS (yes I play on a Mac), I did end up buying it and I think there were a few Stuff Packs available at the time which I got also. As more and more EPs, SPs and GPs have been added, I've spent more time exploring the game and having fun. Yes, I still play Sims 2 and 3, as I find them fun as well. Are there things that could have been improved in Sims 4? Yes, there are. Sims 4 isn't perfect, but neither are 2 and 3.
I do think that many initial decisions could have been handled better and I hope that the EA/Maxis executives have learned from them as well as the initial mistakes made with Star Wars Battlefront II or Dragon Age or any other EA title.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
In dreams - I LIVE!
In REALITY, I simply exist.....
> To7m wrote: »
>
> Same logic applies; just because you *dont* want it, why remove it from the game entirely? That’s the entire point. The Sims is a game of options and choices - sorry, but what on EARTH possessed the devs to think it would be ok to remove basic pet needs or not be able to be a CHEF in your own restaurant? On what planet is that even a logical choice? Most restaurant owners I know (and I know several) ALL cook their own food. All of them.
>
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> I used to play this game because of all the options it offered me. Now we’re kinda forced to play a certain way because of 1. The way the game is made and 2. Because the community can’t grasp the fact that because something is IN the game in the first place, you *dont* actually have to use it.
>
> —T
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>
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> They didn't "remove" it. They chose not to create it and add it.
>
> I'm starting to think that if there is a Sims 5, they should just throw everything out but the most basic of sims concepts and start over. And then instead of rehashing packs, make entirely new stuff. Cause it seems they're asked nonstop to repeat what past games did (but better), but if they fall short on even one thing, they've committed a creative crime of the highest order.
>
> They're a team of professionals and I expect them to excel, considering the price tag. But the expectations being placed on them with regards to repeat content are too often unrealistic. Players assume that something they consider essential is essential in the minds of the developers and then get mad when that essential thing is missing.
>
> I have no interest in defending the greed of publishers, but plummed if I watch devs getting taken to task for not being perfect. The amount of myth and magical thinking that surrounds the powers of devs is out of hand. Criticize and complain all you want, but realize that devs aren't mind-readers and they have no magical powers. Sometimes they have different priorities than player 23502 and sometimes they just don't know what player 23502 wants. And sometimes they know exactly what player 23502 wants and they want to give it to them, but they don't have the time or the resources.
Do you understand why games get different versions? Most games move on because of graphics. Often games like World of Warcraft took years before they updated characters because they were afraid of putting out subscribers who couldn't afford newer computers but like all things that has to change because of OS changes. The same with the Sims 4.
People want the stuff they use to play because they liked it & it worked for them. You can't hold it against people for wanting to see the content they loved be updated & brought to the current game. According to everything I have read, they had a winning setup with Sims 3. I've never played it but I wish I had. Still thinking of it. Sure with every game there are issues but if EA/Maxis would have stuck with it & just fixed the known issues & placed it with newer graphics they wouldn't have to worry about where the money was coming from because I can guarantee that people would be throwing their money at them. The fact that they are not pushing the limits with new, updated game packs & expansions just seems to show that they lack the love they use to hold for their game.