@DeservedCriticism
This system is a particular case of a larger one that determine how long an interaction should run, and it's all intricately connected to autonomy, and of course, multitasking. I doubt there's a problem with the coding itself because it's used in a huge variety of different situations and most are working fine (though you probably don't realize they are in fact using the same coding; like how long they stay in bed, at work, how long they take to repare or craft something).
It's not a general rule that is applied equally, it's per interaction. Think about going to the toilet and watching TV. While you may want your Sims to keep watching TV when his fun need is full, you probably don't want your Sims to stay on the loo when his bladder need is full. So you need to define it per interaction, with different constraints for each. There's a default, but as soon as you want something a bit different, you have to define it. So yes, that's why some may slip through the cracks, since there are thousands of interactions.
And like Triplis said, you probably don't want to apply the same priority to all user-based actions because otherwise your Sims would stay in bed all day, or stay at work forever, or stay in front of their computer even after it's broken, or just wait in front of their empty plate. I think it would be a micro-management nightmare if you had to check constantly on your Sims. it would mean your Sims turn into robots as soon as you tell them to do anything and that would turn user-based interactions basically into traps your Sims can't escape from. That's not what I would expect from the game when autonomy is turned on. If I'm playing with autonomy on, I expect them to be displaying some level of autonomy, and not wait on my command for everything. It's a fine balance though, because indeed you don't want to fight against them either. (Though I'd say part of the charm of the Sims is also in their autonomous behavior that doesn't always match what you'd like them to do, it makes them more alive)
@Triplis
Wouldn't "Short-Term Vision" be really costly in performance though ? I mean, look ahead/look behind can quickly be costly so unless you rely on heuristics to define some common sets of action (like in the morning), I'm not sure it would be doable. We already have some actions that followed each other, like using the toilet -> washing hand (which I think is done through the hand hygiene need) or cooking something -> grabing a plate, but it's mostly ones that have a logical link. I guess making some longer string of actions is probably doable (like the cleaning frenzy), or tying some needs to the hour of the day but I think there would be a risk of making them a bit too predictable.
The drinking obsession is indeed very likely related to the thirst need, I didn't keep my Sims hydrated and they were drinking autonomously. I made the thirst need converges at 100 instead of 0 and it stopped. I'd say the fact they were constantly attempting to drink was probably because the autonomous action was overriden by my owns, so as soon as they finally managed to grab a drink, I told them to do something else, and they put it down, still as thirsty as before. Which lead to lots of glass everywhere from their vain attempts at filling their thirst need Washing hand may be for the same reason, there's also a hand hygiene need (and an oral one which is only used when your Sims puke).
For the waving, I think it may be related to the different hello/greeting interactions that were introduced in GT. It's an interaction that isn't visible to the user, but when you cancel a social interaction, it still runs, and you can't do anything to cancel it. I wonder if it's intended or not. I would expect this type of interactions to be cancelled if I tell my Sims to do something else instead, but that doesn't seem to be the case from what I've seen in-game (I haven't checked in the game files).
WOW! OP posts a legitimate observation on the borked AI in this game and is attacked within minutes. Unbelievable. @DeservedCriticism I applaud you for sticking around this forum and putting up with the ignorance certain people are constantly throwing at you. I hope you know a lot of people do enjoy your posts and discussions.
So your precious TS3 can do no wrong and it has to be TS4 that is being picked on here? I can say that sims didn't listen to you in TS3 either so that doesn't hold up that this is the only game they feel isn't player controlled.
Okay, I'm not trying to start an arguement here but let me just say, that in my original post, I mentioned that I liked The Sims 4 better than The Sims 3. Not everyone that complains about things that go on in The Sims 4 hates the game and prefers The Sims 3. Trust me, I have a lot of things that I could complain about The Sims 3 (and yes, this includes Sims cancelling actions but this didn't happen as often because I would play on low freewill.)
Now, with that being said, just because I like The Sims 4 more than The Sims 3, doesn't mean I don't have the right to complain about some things. I understand that some players have different play styles but that still doesn't mean I don't have the right to complain about things that bother me in my play style.
I'll say it again. I don't care if my sims go off and do what they want. In fact, I want them to do that if I don't have anything for them to do or if one of their needs are in the red. But when I assign them to do something, I do not want them cancelling my action unless one of their needs are in red.
This only got worse when toddlers were introduced. Everytime I turn around, my sims are cancelling player assigned tasks to either "put down" a toddler they aren't even holding or they are going to "check on" them. It's annoying when they are trying to do this at ever second and then when you try to cancel the action, they go and do it anyway or get half way there and then stop. It's a waste of time.
I have that to but I am not complaining about it. Yes I wish they wouldn't cancel what you tell them to do and yes it's annoying but it's a game and far from perfect I only used TS3 as an example because I had the same things happening in that game to. I actually really hate TS3 so maybe I find it more tolerable because I don't want to go back to the game I can't stand.
I haven't played The Sims 3 in years so I'm right there with you. But just because something doesn't bother you, doesn't mean it can't bother me. And if I want to complain about it, then I'm going to complain about it. That's the whole thing with differing opinions.
Also, I didn't find it so annoying until toddlers were introduced. In fact, I don't even think I noticed it as much until toddlers. It's just the toddlers are constantly interrupting things and it annoys me (but don't get me wrong. I love the toddlers to pieces. They're adorable and fun.) Again, if I want to complain about that, then I'm going to. But trust me, I still really really enjoy this game and spend hours playing it. I still think it's fun even though it has its faults.
The MC Command center is great. It helps so much with story progression outside in the world and it's just fun to use on your own sims.
"The one you confide in the most. The one who understands you best. The one you'll miss more than any other. When he dies..." - Batman/Superman 018
SuperBat ruined my life!<3
@Neia
Thanks for explaining the water thing. That's probably the one activity that drives me up the wall the most. I think I'll just get a mod to stop that behavior for now and hope they tweak it on their own at some point. I almost wonder if they put that thirst in there for people that want their sims to drink with every meal. Breakfast with coffee yada, yada. I usually just have my sim eat and get it over with even though I occasionally like for them to have a family dinner or a social dinner. So I think I'll leave the eating behavior alone for now. To me it's now sounding like they meant for it to be a realistic behavior.. it just didn't end up being so for so many simmers. I've been leaving them dehydrated...
WOW! OP posts a legitimate observation on the borked AI in this game and is attacked within minutes. Unbelievable. @DeservedCriticism I applaud you for sticking around this forum and putting up with the ignorance certain people are constantly throwing at you. I hope you know a lot of people do enjoy your posts and discussions.
So your precious TS3 can do no wrong and it has to be TS4 that is being picked on here? I can say that sims didn't listen to you in TS3 either so that doesn't hold up that this is the only game they feel isn't player controlled.
TS3 is now irrelevant, because it is no more supported and no more will it be update. With TS4, devs can still do something about it. What was in the past stayed past, but TS4 is still getting updates and what not. Even if it was bad, how about sharing us a stories on what you experenced with this issue? As far we see, comparing it to this iteraton wasn't that far worse unlike this current game.
Its not irrelevant I was saying past games in the series did the same thing like cancel what I asked my sim to do. So how is comparing the entire series to TS4 irrelevant? If I have problems I don't notice them because I have mods to control the gameplay. The only real problem I have is sims still walking through walls furniture and stairs that are in their way in no way does that look realistic but its actually amusing.
He didn't imply TS3 didn't have issues. He implied that TS3 wasn't that worse than TS4.
Yes, "it has to be TS4 that is being picked on here" because IS STILL ON DEVELOPMENT. Right anyone can continue on whining to EA/TEAM that TS3 had bad AI as long as anybody want, but that won't change anything because TS3 is out FINISHED iteration. That's what I meant by it being irrelevant.
Play-style isn't really relevant in this discussion as I've noticed sims doing this on their own, and when I tell them to do something. They'll be all like "Hey, Johnny is right next to me! I'll go say hi!....NOPE." And stand there. Then dropping actions is funny. But when a toddler needs something, or they'll be taken away, you better stick them in that highchair and leave them there, buddy...
It is really frustrating when you want a sim to accomplish anything, be it a social interaction or a task, and it gets canceled out. I've noticed actions getting replaced by another AND canceling for no particular reason. I think it has something to do with panics and tantrums, or passing out, interactions like that that get priority over others all the time. Perhaps its some sort of a system glitch based off of that priority mechanic.
To say "I don't play like you." Is kind of missing the point of discussing the ways this glitch manifests. What would be more helpful is for more simmers that let their sims have free-reign weigh in on what sorts of actions get queued and then sim-canceled for no reason. That would be really interesting to hear about, and possibly really funny.
@Neia
Thanks for explaining the water thing. That's probably the one activity that drives me up the wall the most. I think I'll just get a mod to stop that behavior for now and hope they tweak it on their own at some point. I almost wonder if they put that thirst in there for people that want their sims to drink with every meal. Breakfast with coffee yada, yada. I usually just have my sim eat and get it over with even though I occasionally like for them to have a family dinner or a social dinner. So I think I'll leave the eating behavior alone for now. To me it's now sounding like they meant for it to be a realistic behavior.. it just didn't end up being so for so many simmers. I've been leaving them dehydrated...
Yes, I think they meant it to be a realistic touch, the Sims even get more thirsty by doing sports for example, which is a nice touch. But the problem for me is that drinking is lowering the bladder so much. I tend to avoid coffee for that reason too. I think perhaps the bladder need shouldn't be lowered if the Sims is thirsty. That way you'd only need to pee if you drink too much.
Wouldn't "Short-Term Vision" be really costly in performance though ? I mean, look ahead/look behind can quickly be costly so unless you rely on heuristics to define some common sets of action (like in the morning), I'm not sure it would be doable. We already have some actions that followed each other, like using the toilet -> washing hand (which I think is done through the hand hygiene need) or cooking something -> grabing a plate, but it's mostly ones that have a logical link. I guess making some longer string of actions is probably doable (like the cleaning frenzy), or tying some needs to the hour of the day but I think there would be a risk of making them a bit too predictable.
The drinking obsession is indeed very likely related to the thirst need, I didn't keep my Sims hydrated and they were drinking autonomously. I made the thirst need converges at 100 instead of 0 and it stopped. I'd say the fact they were constantly attempting to drink was probably because the autonomous action was overriden by my owns, so as soon as they finally managed to grab a drink, I told them to do something else, and they put it down, still as thirsty as before. Which lead to lots of glass everywhere from their vain attempts at filling their thirst need Washing hand may be for the same reason, there's also a hand hygiene need (and an oral one which is only used when your Sims puke).
For the waving, I think it may be related to the different hello/greeting interactions that were introduced in GT. It's an interaction that isn't visible to the user, but when you cancel a social interaction, it still runs, and you can't do anything to cancel it. I wonder if it's intended or not. I would expect this type of interactions to be cancelled if I tell my Sims to do something else instead, but that doesn't seem to be the case from what I've seen in-game (I haven't checked in the game files).
You're probably right about performance cost. I haven't really thought through the logistics of it; was kinda just spitballing theory. And yes, I agree about predictability. I think it'd have to be done in a way that allows for randomness in some way, or it would just be a set of predictable actions.
Good to know about thirst and hand washing. I didn't realize there was a separate hand hygiene need; makes sense though. I was looking around for something like that at one point, but I think I was looking in the wrong places. Wasn't occurring to me to look for a need specific to washing hands.
That is curious about the greeting. I wonder now how the mechanics of it work. I don't think I've ever looked much into that particular aspect of the game.
Yes, I think they meant it to be a realistic touch, the Sims even get more thirsty by doing sports for example, which is a nice touch. But the problem for me is that drinking is lowering the bladder so much. I tend to avoid coffee for that reason too. I think perhaps the bladder need shouldn't be lowered if the Sims is thirsty. That way you'd only need to pee if you drink too much.
I think that'd be a good change. ^^ That or just tweak way down how much bladder gets reduced from drinking. I've always found it weird how fast it decreases from drinking water.
I'm not sure how it works in the code, but I think what'd be more realistic is if drinking gives you a temporary buff that increases the bladder decay rate by a small amount. Something like 1.1, or 1.2, for 2 sim hours. Then it's more true to life where the drinking has an ongoing impact on your bladder. And then if you pee before the buff dissipates, peeing removes it. (Granted, this might be too much of an overlapping priorities "creating a problem" out of a solution way to do it, since you might get decay rate fighting for priority, with things like pregnancy potentially getting screwed up. I'm not sure about the modifiers for stuff like decay rate in buffs when they are numbers other than 0, if it factors them together at all, or if it chooses one as the priority and ignores the rest.)
And a side note for anyone who may be interested, the fix for Active Trait sims having their exercise canceled to go Dream Big that I mentioned in the edit of my other post... it's now up on MTS: http://modthesims.info/download.php?t=595966
@bunny-🐸🐸🐸🐸 I think the computer has higher pull than some things. Not entirely sure in what way (I've never looked into that particular aspect of the code). I've definitely noticed what you're talking about in gameplay.
As for babies and checking on toddlers and the like, interestingly, it seems to me like they wanted to make sure that toddlers wouldn't be a case of being ignored, so they made sure that sims (particularly those who have a toddler as care dependent) will check on them regularly, even if the toddler doesn't need anything in that particular moment. It may be slightly overtuned and it probably could be adjusted, though I don't know myself enough about the numbers of it to guess at how things would need to be adjusted in that situation.
I haven't played with babies much, but if they are being ignored, I bet they could set them up with the same "adopt as care dependent" mechanics, so that caregivers will regularly check on the baby, like they do with toddlers.
But yeah, happy to be of help and share what I know.
And like Triplis said, you probably don't want to apply the same priority to all user-based actions because otherwise your Sims would stay in bed all day, or stay at work forever, or stay in front of their computer even after it's broken, or just wait in front of their empty plate. I think it would be a micro-management nightmare if you had to check constantly on your Sims. it would mean your Sims turn into robots as soon as you tell them to do anything and that would turn user-based interactions basically into traps your Sims can't escape from. That's not what I would expect from the game when autonomy is turned on. If I'm playing with autonomy on, I expect them to be displaying some level of autonomy, and not wait on my command for everything. It's a fine balance though, because indeed you don't want to fight against them either. (Though I'd say part of the charm of the Sims is also in their autonomous behavior that doesn't always match what you'd like them to do, it makes them more alive)
This makes zero sense to me. The exceptions are minor; making it a universal rule that player-queue'ed actions carry more weight, then defining the exceptions, seems like far less work and less headaches than individually attempting to define each player-queue'ed action that should carry more weight. The exceptions are obvious: a need in the red, the action reaches completion (work, sleep, eating), special events (abduction, fire) and a couple other misc exceptions and that's that. By contrast, defining player-queue'ed actions that carry more weight manually and individually means you're going through hundreds-if-not-thousands of potential scenarios, and it's no wonder some would slip through.
Functional player-prioritizing doesn't mean autonomy functions less, either. It just means autonomy cannot override your actions and can only sit in the queue waiting for you to allow it's existence or cancel it out.
@DeservedCriticism
Perhaps I didn't explain it well enough then. There's a default at start where user-based is guaranted and autonomy is inertial, and thousands of "obvious" exceptions that handle when an interaction should exit, cancel, go inertial, etc afterward (basically how long should it last ?). These exceptions are needed because otherwise the Sims would be robots/trapped as soon as you tell them to do anything; but they are numerous because there's a huge diversity of situations/interactions. You can't apply the same rule to watching TV and using the toilets.
If I'm playing with autonomy on, I expect them to be displaying some level of autonomy, and not wait on my command for everything.
Of course we don't want sims with autonomy on to just stand doing nothing until given a new command, but if I give a command to my sim the command shouldn't be ignored or cancelled by the sim.
Just an example with the Parenthood pack. The table with blocks for the toddlers (sorry I don't remember the name, but if you have the pack you should know which I'm talking about since it's the only one), my sims were constantly cancelling commands, and stopping to do what they were doing to go play with it, my adult sims by the way not my toddlers (somehow my toddlers don't give a 🐸🐸🐸🐸 about that table), their energy need were in the red, I commanded them to go to bed, they went for a second, then got back up right away to go play with the blocks, I commanded again to go to bed, the sim went for a second, then got back up to go play with the 🐸🐸🐸🐸 table, that's something that shouldn't happen even with autonomy on, my only choice was to sell the table. If I command my sim to go sleep, the sim shouldn't just get back up after a second to go play with a toy, make ice cream or chat with an other sim, specially when the need is in the red.
So yea I want my sims with autonomy on to do stuff by themselves if I don't give them any commands, but if I give a command? My command should be executed, I don't give a command to my sim to use the toilet to see my sim cancel it to go craft something on the wood table, and then pee himself cause his bladder was in the red.
The only exceptions that I can understand cancel my commands are events like a fire, witnessing a death or being abducted by the aliens, that I can understand that it cancel commands.
I see a few people declaring sims in 3 are canceling instructions too, but... no they don't? Only when they see a ghost or simbot and feel the need to be disgusted, but other than that they don't. I can give them a chain of commands and focus on another sim. When I return to them (hours later sometimes) they've done everything I told them to do.
@DeservedCriticism
Perhaps I didn't explain it well enough then. There's a default at start where user-based is guaranted and autonomy is inertial, and thousands of "obvious" exceptions that handle when an interaction should exit, cancel, go inertial, etc afterward (basically how long should it last ?). These exceptions are needed because otherwise the Sims would be robots/trapped as soon as you tell them to do anything; but they are numerous because there's a huge diversity of situations/interactions. You can't apply the same rule to watching TV and using the toilets.
Except you can. Sims 1, Sims 2 and Sims 3 all did a wonderful job of figuring out when player-queue'ed actions should remain and when they should be overridden. Sims 4 cannot do this, for whatever reason. Whether that reason be a failure of multitasking, poor priorities/programming regarding guarenteed vs. intertial or what-have-you, I really don't care. I don't care because it's obvious they succeeded at this system thrice in the past, so whatever the cause may be, it's inexcuseable.
Sims in Sims 1, 2 and 3 can all be assigned to watch TV or to use the bathroom without being trapped to the TV or toilet and without failing to understand when they can cease the action. Sims 4 sims by contrast are eager to abandon a fair amount of player-assigned tasks, while likewise eager to queue up actions regardless of the scenario. (a Sim with max fun might obsess over a nearby TV)
There's a problem. Sitting here and discussing why that problem exists seems pointless to me, because you're more or less trying to tell me a system that's existed thrice already is suddenly super hard to do. If this were the first game ever and we didn't know how to resolve this issue, sure, let's discuss the cause, but here...? They've already succeeded thrice. There's simply no excuse for why the Sims 4 has such poor optimization with action priority. The only scenarios where I think discussing the cause would be of any use would be if A.) the Devs were explicitly asking us to help pinpoint the problem so they could fix it or B.) the cause itself helped suggest a workaround or why this problem might worsen/improve on it's own in the near future.
@DeservedCriticism
I shared the info that the system was there to help. I then answered questions about how it works because people were curious and you even started discussing about it. Now if you'd rather complain about the AI being abysimal and not give specifics unless asked to do so by the devs, fine, go ahead. I just shared what I thought would be helpful.
WOW! OP posts a legitimate observation on the borked AI in this game and is attacked within minutes. Unbelievable. @DeservedCriticism I applaud you for sticking around this forum and putting up with the ignorance certain people are constantly throwing at you. I hope you know a lot of people do enjoy your posts and discussions.
So your precious TS3 can do no wrong and it has to be TS4 that is being picked on here? I can say that sims didn't listen to you in TS3 either so that doesn't hold up that this is the only game they feel isn't player controlled.
Okay, I'm not trying to start an arguement here but let me just say, that in my original post, I mentioned that I liked The Sims 4 better than The Sims 3. Not everyone that complains about things that go on in The Sims 4 hates the game and prefers The Sims 3. Trust me, I have a lot of things that I could complain about The Sims 3 (and yes, this includes Sims cancelling actions but this didn't happen as often because I would play on low freewill.)
Now, with that being said, just because I like The Sims 4 more than The Sims 3, doesn't mean I don't have the right to complain about some things. I understand that some players have different play styles but that still doesn't mean I don't have the right to complain about things that bother me in my play style.
I'll say it again. I don't care if my sims go off and do what they want. In fact, I want them to do that if I don't have anything for them to do or if one of their needs are in the red. But when I assign them to do something, I do not want them cancelling my action unless one of their needs are in red.
This only got worse when toddlers were introduced. Everytime I turn around, my sims are cancelling player assigned tasks to either "put down" a toddler they aren't even holding or they are going to "check on" them. It's annoying when they are trying to do this at ever second and then when you try to cancel the action, they go and do it anyway or get half way there and then stop. It's a waste of time.
I have that to but I am not complaining about it. Yes I wish they wouldn't cancel what you tell them to do and yes it's annoying but it's a game and far from perfect I only used TS3 as an example because I had the same things happening in that game to. I actually really hate TS3 so maybe I find it more tolerable because I don't want to go back to the game I can't stand.
I haven't played The Sims 3 in years so I'm right there with you. But just because something doesn't bother you, doesn't mean it can't bother me. And if I want to complain about it, then I'm going to complain about it. That's the whole thing with differing opinions.
Also, I didn't find it so annoying until toddlers were introduced. In fact, I don't even think I noticed it as much until toddlers. It's just the toddlers are constantly interrupting things and it annoys me (but don't get me wrong. I love the toddlers to pieces. They're adorable and fun.) Again, if I want to complain about that, then I'm going to. But trust me, I still really really enjoy this game and spend hours playing it. I still think it's fun even though it has its faults.
The MC Command center is great. It helps so much with story progression outside in the world and it's just fun to use on your own sims.
Oh I have that and thats probably why I find it more tolerable playing the game that they cancel the actions.
I see a few people declaring sims in 3 are canceling instructions too, but... no they don't? Only when they see a ghost or simbot and feel the need to be disgusted, but other than that they don't. I can give them a chain of commands and focus on another sim. When I return to them (hours later sometimes) they've done everything I told them to do.
So I am lying that happened in my game it might have not in yours but you don't have my game so how would you know?
If there one thing i know no computers are the same for some games work perfectly even if they lag but for some if the lag is constent thats prevents you from playing unless having mods thats a diffrent story, right now i may have a good pc but with every ep gamepack or stuffpack added it cause a lag on the game where the game eather do not respond or is very slow. I remember my old pc in order to run the sims3 smoothly i had to uninstall the sims2.
If you went the sims5 to remain offline feel free to sign this petition http://chng.it/gtfHPhHK please note that it is also to keep the gallery
Wow, there are so many embarrassing people here. Anyways, I have this too. I've been telling my teen sim to hack or create video games, and then leave him alone, because i'm a lax player. I let them do what they want on high autonomy. I've never played any other way.
But after a while he queues an action to watch tv, Its always tv, and stops. I always thought he just finished since i don't sit there and look at him. only to go assign him later in the day and see "Continue [action]". I've been trying to get him to finish the exact same video game for several sim weeks. I wonder whats up with the odd action cancelling too. The same sims dad will fix something and the teen will IMMEDIATELY zoom over to dig through the scrap pile despite not having the repair skill. I cancel it and he will complete the action anyway. Then i have to go dig out repair parts and give them to his dad.
High autonomy never meant the sims do whatever they want no matter what I saw. So i mean...ya'll trippin.
Except you can. Sims 1, Sims 2 and Sims 3 all did a wonderful job of figuring out when player-queue'ed actions should remain and when they should be overridden. Sims 4 cannot do this, for whatever reason. Whether that reason be a failure of multitasking, poor priorities/programming regarding guarenteed vs. intertial or what-have-you, I really don't care. I don't care because it's obvious they succeeded at this system thrice in the past, so whatever the cause may be, it's inexcuseable.
Sims in Sims 1, 2 and 3 can all be assigned to watch TV or to use the bathroom without being trapped to the TV or toilet and without failing to understand when they can cease the action. Sims 4 sims by contrast are eager to abandon a fair amount of player-assigned tasks, while likewise eager to queue up actions regardless of the scenario. (a Sim with max fun might obsess over a nearby TV)
There's a problem. Sitting here and discussing why that problem exists seems pointless to me, because you're more or less trying to tell me a system that's existed thrice already is suddenly super hard to do. If this were the first game ever and we didn't know how to resolve this issue, sure, let's discuss the cause, but here...? They've already succeeded thrice. There's simply no excuse for why the Sims 4 has such poor optimization with action priority. The only scenarios where I think discussing the cause would be of any use would be if A.) the Devs were explicitly asking us to help pinpoint the problem so they could fix it or B.) the cause itself helped suggest a workaround or why this problem might worsen/improve on it's own in the near future.
To my understanding, the previous sims games didn't have much in the way of sims being able to operate on their own... like, to a point certainly, but an extremely limited point. In this one, they can be left alone, with the caveat that they'll be a bit stupid about some things.
That, to my understanding, is the primary difference in the systems. They made sims "smarter" in TS4, when operating independently, and thus it came with its own set of problems, some of those problems being associated with playstyles that involve micromanaging (which some had become accustomed to from previous sims titles).
What you are saying in this post is frankly crowd-pleasing nonsense. I get it, you are being the voice of, "We want we want, give it to us now!" Congratulations for playing the crowd. The reality is, TS4 is designed as it is designed and has been designed as it is for over 2 years. That you have the gall to talk like actions in TS4 are an abject failure, while implying that it's easy to fix, amidst more than one person sharing details about the workings of the code with you, while you pull back to say that the details don't matter, is some of the most intellectually dishonest behavior I've seen from you. And I'm saying this from the perspective of having a certain amount of respect for your interest in fact and logic, despite not always agreeing with how you go about it, or most of your positions.
It's one thing to critique. It's another thing to sensationalize. And this "shoot the messenger", "the devs can figure it out themselves" stuff is not remotely constructive, or adds a single 🐸🐸🐸🐸 thing to discussions about the sims series. For someone who is usually so ready to write a ten page manuscript on what needs changing, you sure are shutting down in the face of an actual detailed discussion about the workings of the game. It seems like a copout to me. After all, how can you lose an argument if you dismiss the details out of hand? I've seen that tactic before. Heck, I've used it before throughout my life. It's a face-saving tactic, nothing more. You're better than that.
I get why people don't like the way Sims have autonomy overriding their manual input, and that is because it's a game, a game that's meant to be played rather than watched...
@DeservedCriticism
I shared the info that the system was there to help. I then answered questions about how it works because people were curious and you even started discussing about it. Now if you'd rather complain about the AI being abysimal and not give specifics unless asked to do so by the devs, fine, go ahead. I just shared what I thought would be helpful.
Which people? You've been addressing me for a full page now, and that's what I'm questioning: why?
Look, this started with you providing useful info that a player-action weight system does exist, and I thank you for that. However, where are we now? You and I are both theorizing the exact causes of this problem and neither of us have absolute proof. It's probably a mix of all named issues (multitasking, bad values, inertial vs. guarenteed), but even if I were 100% right or you're 100% right...? It makes zero difference. The problem still exists, and the devs aren't exactly here asking us to spitball theories, thus theories are currently rather useless.
I made this thread to bring light to the issue, get a tally of how many people have it, get a tally of the various situations where it's common, and to hopefully get this issue on the radar. Theorizing the exact cause doesn't assist with that. It might be useful if the devs were to ask for ideas when exploring the problem, but that's not happening, so I'd rather not get into some pointless debate about theories when there's better things to discuss. If there are others who want you to keep telling you their theories, by all means go for it. Not trying to scare you off or make you feel unwelcome, I'm just saying that at this point in our discussion, I'm asking myself "what is the purpose of this" and I'm not getting an answer. I don't see the point in theorizing when both of us are in the dark, at least not at this point in time. I'd welcome facts, hard evidence and information, but this has devolved into theorizing, so I'mma bow out and I'd thank you not to tag me for future posts regarding possible causes for this problem. I just want it fixed, so possible causes don't interest me unless they lead to workarounds, common links to help identify when the problem will arise or other such useful info.
Sorry if I was rather hostile. My patience is thin around here lately...for good reason, but not for any reason that you gave me, so perhaps I was a bit harsh with my response.
Seriously now, I feel like at times some of you guys are just here to argue:
That, to my understanding, is the primary difference in the systems. They made sims "smarter" in TS4
Half the arguments I'm seeing are "actually it's working this way because Sims 4 is just TOO danged amazing. It's so amazing it causes problems." It's like an attempt to rewrite the issue into a positive. Look, if you wanna do that, go nuts. I have no interest in discussing whether this is a sign of terriawful AI or Sims 4 being TOO amazing and TOO advanced and that's why it causes problems. All I care about is that I have consistent issues in this game, the issues have never been this bad before, past games are evidence they CAN fix these issues, and so I want them fixed.
What you are saying in this post is frankly crowd-pleasing nonsense. I get it, you are being the voice of, "We want we want, give it to us now!" Congratulations for playing the crowd. The reality is, TS4 is designed as it is designed and has been designed as it is for over 2 years. That you have the gall to talk like actions in TS4 are an abject failure, while implying that it's easy to fix, amidst more than one person sharing details about the workings of the code with you, while you pull back to say that the details don't matter, is some of the most intellectually dishonest behavior I've seen from you. And I'm saying this from the perspective of having a certain amount of respect for your interest in fact and logic, despite not always agreeing with how you go about it, or most of your positions.
^Thank you for proving my point with the above snippet. You're not here to discuss the issue in and of itself, you're here to argue with me because I expressed discontent with Sims 4. This entire above snippet is just full of emotion and more or less an attack on me. I mean the idea that....the idea that I made this thread to be a crowdpleaser or gain popularity or something....don't you think it makes more sense that I'm genuinely sick to death of this issue? Don't you think the immediate little onslaught I got (and continue to get) suggests it'd be odd if I viewed this as a "crowd pleaser?" Dude, I voice my opinion. That's it. And yes, I'm absolutely sick of this particular issue, and yes, when we're talking about issues that have existed for over two years, you're not gonna see me tiptoe around it and say "oh but I understand you're busy plugging the new Stuff pack in the newest patch notes devs, so if you can't fix this then that's ok and I understand. " No, I want it fixed lololol.
It's very simple: THREE GAMES all successfully provided proper player-weighting on actions, Sims 4 dropped the ball on this. Whether it dropped the ball because the tech in Sims 4 is highly advanced and complex and this issue is perfectly understandable how it arose, or it's a result of shortsighted planning with the multitasking and additional systems of Sims 4...? I don't care, that's irrelevant. For all I care, this issue arose because God himself was so busy blessing EA/Maxis and throwing a party for them for this fantastic game that they all ran late to work the day they were supposed to iron this out. All I know is that it's 100% possible to create the system I'm asking for. The first three games are evidence of this, and quite a few people seem annoyed with this particular issue I've raised. That's all I want: raise awareness on this issue and hope it gets fixed.
It's one thing to critique. It's another thing to sensationalize. And this "shoot the messenger", "the devs can figure it out themselves" stuff is not remotely constructive, or adds a single plum thing to discussions about the sims series. For someone who is usually so ready to write a ten page manuscript on what needs changing, you sure are shutting down in the face of an actual detailed discussion about the workings of the game
Because it's off-topic.
Here's the two topics for you:
1) "I have this issue where Sims cancel my actions and I hate it. Does anyone else have it? Do you hate it too? When does it seem to frequently occur/during what actions? Can we get this fixed?"
2) "I think action weight functions this way and that it's more productive to program the game by not utilizing a universal rule that player-assigned actions carry more weight because A, B, and C."
No, these are not the same topic. They may be close to each other, they may be tangents, but they are not the same.
No, I am not impeding progress by not partaking in this discussion. I've yet to see evidence that Neia is speaking as an absolute authority (aka that beyond acknowledging there is coding in place to give player actions more weight, he can only theorize why it's failing at times), and that means we're all stabbing in the dark. Drop me a line when the devs actively ASK us to help pinpoint what causes the issue, and then we can gladly theorize on this.
No, theories without support do not DEMAND respect. Come back when you or Neia have absolute, strong evidence for any of your theories and I would be more than happy to hear you out. Until then I welcome you to discuss your theories with people here who may be interested, but no, I am not interested, I am not under an obligation to entertain these theories and yeah I'm gonna get annoyed when not only am I repeatedly mentioned so I get a notification to theories I don't care about, but you're now attempting to afford yourself some sort of moral high ground by speaking as though I'm acting terrible or irrational or something for not caring about those theories with minimal support.
The ONLY snippet of new, potentially-helpful info named thusfar is Neia confirming for us a system to give player-assigned actions more weight does exist, though clearly we can see it's prone to malfunctioning. Everything else has been speculation. I thank Neia for that snippet and I'd welcome more concrete info or concrete evidence, but no, I don't want to delve into theories when I don't think this is the time or the place.
And when you come into my thread and make statements like these:
and I have to raise an eyebrow at your phrasing "many, many cases."
It makes it clear you're not here to acknowledge this problem, but to try and downplay it to defend Sims 4. The amount of cases or if it's "many" or "few".... who cares?! Clearly there's enough that a LOT of people are bothered by Sims 4's AI, so who cares what percent of the actions it is? You care, and with that snippet and the snippet above, it's clear you're simply upset with me for dissing Sims 4's AI. Ok, good for you. Go be sad elsewhere, I'm out of patience for people telling me it's my responsibility to word things in a super complimentary way towards Sims 4 so they don't cry.
"Too Long, Didn't Read Summary:" Both of you are theorizing. If you have concrete evidence for your claims or some form of informative insights into the issue, by all means show it, and you're welcome to theorize amongst yourselves. However, the purpose of this thread is simply to tally up people running into this issue, tally up instances where this issue occurs, and push for a fix. Theorizing distracts from this and delves into a tangent topic. Discussing a tangent topic is one thing....discussing a tangent topic and then acting like I'm being an irrational jerk for refusing to abandon the initial purpose of the thread to blindly theorize with you two....? Yeah, that's not gonna happen.
Seriously now, I feel like at times you guys are just here to argue
Are you kidding me? That's basically all that you do here is argue. That you're going to use it as some sort of point against me, or anyone else, is laughable.
I have never tried to hide the fact that I like TS4. Naturally, that means my arguments are more often going to fall on the end of a perspective on the game that is positive. That doesn't mean my arguments are automatically wrong.
You want to act like you're being targeted, but then you'll act like a dbag to people who are meeting you on the terms that you so often ask for; having a discussion and/or debate with facts and logic. I get that some people at some times target criticism of this game with a level of unfair and dismissive ire, but that doesn't give you license to go off on anyone who challenges your positions; at that point, you're just being the thing that you hate.
You want a debate, have a debate. You don't get to do a fallback maneuver to save face or play the victim when your arguments are failing; it's disingenuous and goes against the very ideals that you preach, undermining the core of most of what you say. It's more damaging to your own efforts than it is to anyone who becomes the target of your ire. Realize that if I only cared about TS4 being perceived in a positive light, I would let you self-destruct your own efforts without saying a word. It's because I care about ideals to do with logic and reason, and about the environment on this forum being constructive, that I care enough to say what I'm saying.
Seriously now, I feel like at times you guys are just here to argue
Are you kidding me? That's basically all that you do here is argue. That you're going to use it as some sort of point against me, or anyone else, is laughable.
Then what are you here to do? What on earth was the purpose of your last post except to argue?
No points were raised, nothing of value was said. It was a giant "you should be ashamed of yourself" and that was it. (same with this post too)
I see a few people declaring sims in 3 are canceling instructions too, but... no they don't? Only when they see a ghost or simbot and feel the need to be disgusted, but other than that they don't. I can give them a chain of commands and focus on another sim. When I return to them (hours later sometimes) they've done everything I told them to do.
Nah. They do. Absent-minded sims forget what you told them to do all the time. They're absent-minded. There is also an occurrence that happens in buildings with elevators. They're not necessarily cancelling. They're just running out of time for what you queued them to do if there are several other sims in the way. It makes it seem like they're cancelling your direction due to routing errors.
Also, when one of their needs is in the red, your sim will often drop your directions to tend to their needs. It's absolutely horrible. Unacceptable. Etc. Mind the joke.
Oddly, S4 sims cancelling actions for no reason whatsoever is completely acceptable. At least with 2 and 3, routing and motives are the main issue. Too many sims trying to do the same thing at once=cancelled player actions. Sims motives in the red=cancelled player actions.
In Sims 4. Reading a book=cancelled player actions. Performing everyday actions like showering and then using the toilet afterwards=cancelled player actions. Directing them to eat when they're hungry=cancelled player actions. Etc.
To be fair. I haven't played S4 in a while. That was just my last experience.
Baby hoarding has been a problem since S2. I had mods to beat it. I yell at my sims in S3 when the maid steals my baby. It's a real thing. It's happened more than once. Locking doors solves it. In S4, I'm beyond accepting this fallacy in coding.
Enough is enough. I want a better game. It's what I hoped for. I'm not getting a better game though. I'm just getting the same errors over and over in different flavours ad nauseam. In many ways, I feel like I'm getting more issues with each iteration. I'm simply tired of it, but I'm not willing to dismiss any of the errors of the past. There is no reason for me to do so. Those errors of the past are what is making me less tolerant each time.
It's the errors of the past that leave me pining for a better game. But I'm not fool enough to believe because I was told it is a new game. A different game. Etc. That I should excuse any of the failures of the past or the present. The problems are still there, and they continue to compound.
A horse is a horse is a horse.
Post edited by kremesch73 on
Dissatisfied with Sims 4 and hoping for a better Sims 5
@DeservedCriticism
I shared the info that the system was there to help. I then answered questions about how it works because people were curious and you even started discussing about it. Now if you'd rather complain about the AI being abysimal and not give specifics unless asked to do so by the devs, fine, go ahead. I just shared what I thought would be helpful.
I don't really understand why the system would matter, when many players experience the same thing when playing the game: sims canceling player's instructions. You asked for examples but I see people giving many examples of when this happens and the issue is broadly shared.
WOW! OP posts a legitimate observation on the borked AI in this game and is attacked within minutes. Unbelievable. @DeservedCriticism I applaud you for sticking around this forum and putting up with the ignorance certain people are constantly throwing at you. I hope you know a lot of people do enjoy your posts and discussions.
So your precious TS3 can do no wrong and it has to be TS4 that is being picked on here? I can say that sims didn't listen to you in TS3 either so that doesn't hold up that this is the only game they feel isn't player controlled.
Okay, I'm not trying to start an arguement here but let me just say, that in my original post, I mentioned that I liked The Sims 4 better than The Sims 3. Not everyone that complains about things that go on in The Sims 4 hates the game and prefers The Sims 3. Trust me, I have a lot of things that I could complain about The Sims 3 (and yes, this includes Sims cancelling actions but this didn't happen as often because I would play on low freewill.)
Now, with that being said, just because I like The Sims 4 more than The Sims 3, doesn't mean I don't have the right to complain about some things. I understand that some players have different play styles but that still doesn't mean I don't have the right to complain about things that bother me in my play style.
I'll say it again. I don't care if my sims go off and do what they want. In fact, I want them to do that if I don't have anything for them to do or if one of their needs are in the red. But when I assign them to do something, I do not want them cancelling my action unless one of their needs are in red.
This only got worse when toddlers were introduced. Everytime I turn around, my sims are cancelling player assigned tasks to either "put down" a toddler they aren't even holding or they are going to "check on" them. It's annoying when they are trying to do this at ever second and then when you try to cancel the action, they go and do it anyway or get half way there and then stop. It's a waste of time.
I have that to but I am not complaining about it. Yes I wish they wouldn't cancel what you tell them to do and yes it's annoying but it's a game and far from perfect I only used TS3 as an example because I had the same things happening in that game to. I actually really hate TS3 so maybe I find it more tolerable because I don't want to go back to the game I can't stand.
I haven't played The Sims 3 in years so I'm right there with you. But just because something doesn't bother you, doesn't mean it can't bother me. And if I want to complain about it, then I'm going to complain about it. That's the whole thing with differing opinions.
Also, I didn't find it so annoying until toddlers were introduced. In fact, I don't even think I noticed it as much until toddlers. It's just the toddlers are constantly interrupting things and it annoys me (but don't get me wrong. I love the toddlers to pieces. They're adorable and fun.) Again, if I want to complain about that, then I'm going to. But trust me, I still really really enjoy this game and spend hours playing it. I still think it's fun even though it has its faults.
The MC Command center is great. It helps so much with story progression outside in the world and it's just fun to use on your own sims.
Oh I have that and thats probably why I find it more tolerable playing the game that they cancel the actions.
I see a few people declaring sims in 3 are canceling instructions too, but... no they don't? Only when they see a ghost or simbot and feel the need to be disgusted, but other than that they don't. I can give them a chain of commands and focus on another sim. When I return to them (hours later sometimes) they've done everything I told them to do.
So I am lying that happened in my game it might have not in yours but you don't have my game so how would you know?
I really don't care if you're lying about it or assume I am lying about it. All I know is that each and every Sims 3 game is the same and works the same (though there are always computer and mod related differences, but I can't imagine that's the case here). I also know I have thousands and thousands of played hours in that game and when I tell you my sims follow chains of instructions and hardly ever cancel them, you can believe me they do. Because they just do.
Comments
This system is a particular case of a larger one that determine how long an interaction should run, and it's all intricately connected to autonomy, and of course, multitasking. I doubt there's a problem with the coding itself because it's used in a huge variety of different situations and most are working fine (though you probably don't realize they are in fact using the same coding; like how long they stay in bed, at work, how long they take to repare or craft something).
It's not a general rule that is applied equally, it's per interaction. Think about going to the toilet and watching TV. While you may want your Sims to keep watching TV when his fun need is full, you probably don't want your Sims to stay on the loo when his bladder need is full. So you need to define it per interaction, with different constraints for each. There's a default, but as soon as you want something a bit different, you have to define it. So yes, that's why some may slip through the cracks, since there are thousands of interactions.
And like Triplis said, you probably don't want to apply the same priority to all user-based actions because otherwise your Sims would stay in bed all day, or stay at work forever, or stay in front of their computer even after it's broken, or just wait in front of their empty plate. I think it would be a micro-management nightmare if you had to check constantly on your Sims. it would mean your Sims turn into robots as soon as you tell them to do anything and that would turn user-based interactions basically into traps your Sims can't escape from. That's not what I would expect from the game when autonomy is turned on. If I'm playing with autonomy on, I expect them to be displaying some level of autonomy, and not wait on my command for everything. It's a fine balance though, because indeed you don't want to fight against them either. (Though I'd say part of the charm of the Sims is also in their autonomous behavior that doesn't always match what you'd like them to do, it makes them more alive)
@Triplis
Wouldn't "Short-Term Vision" be really costly in performance though ? I mean, look ahead/look behind can quickly be costly so unless you rely on heuristics to define some common sets of action (like in the morning), I'm not sure it would be doable. We already have some actions that followed each other, like using the toilet -> washing hand (which I think is done through the hand hygiene need) or cooking something -> grabing a plate, but it's mostly ones that have a logical link. I guess making some longer string of actions is probably doable (like the cleaning frenzy), or tying some needs to the hour of the day but I think there would be a risk of making them a bit too predictable.
The drinking obsession is indeed very likely related to the thirst need, I didn't keep my Sims hydrated and they were drinking autonomously. I made the thirst need converges at 100 instead of 0 and it stopped. I'd say the fact they were constantly attempting to drink was probably because the autonomous action was overriden by my owns, so as soon as they finally managed to grab a drink, I told them to do something else, and they put it down, still as thirsty as before. Which lead to lots of glass everywhere from their vain attempts at filling their thirst need
For the waving, I think it may be related to the different hello/greeting interactions that were introduced in GT. It's an interaction that isn't visible to the user, but when you cancel a social interaction, it still runs, and you can't do anything to cancel it. I wonder if it's intended or not. I would expect this type of interactions to be cancelled if I tell my Sims to do something else instead, but that doesn't seem to be the case from what I've seen in-game (I haven't checked in the game files).
I haven't played The Sims 3 in years so I'm right there with you. But just because something doesn't bother you, doesn't mean it can't bother me. And if I want to complain about it, then I'm going to complain about it. That's the whole thing with differing opinions.
Also, I didn't find it so annoying until toddlers were introduced. In fact, I don't even think I noticed it as much until toddlers. It's just the toddlers are constantly interrupting things and it annoys me (but don't get me wrong. I love the toddlers to pieces. They're adorable and fun.) Again, if I want to complain about that, then I'm going to. But trust me, I still really really enjoy this game and spend hours playing it. I still think it's fun even though it has its faults.
The MC Command center is great. It helps so much with story progression outside in the world and it's just fun to use on your own sims.
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Thanks for explaining the water thing. That's probably the one activity that drives me up the wall the most. I think I'll just get a mod to stop that behavior for now and hope they tweak it on their own at some point. I almost wonder if they put that thirst in there for people that want their sims to drink with every meal. Breakfast with coffee yada, yada. I usually just have my sim eat and get it over with even though I occasionally like for them to have a family dinner or a social dinner. So I think I'll leave the eating behavior alone for now. To me it's now sounding like they meant for it to be a realistic behavior.. it just didn't end up being so for so many simmers. I've been leaving them dehydrated...
Yes, "it has to be TS4 that is being picked on here" because IS STILL ON DEVELOPMENT. Right anyone can continue on whining to EA/TEAM that TS3 had bad AI as long as anybody want, but that won't change anything because TS3 is out FINISHED iteration. That's what I meant by it being irrelevant.
It is really frustrating when you want a sim to accomplish anything, be it a social interaction or a task, and it gets canceled out. I've noticed actions getting replaced by another AND canceling for no particular reason. I think it has something to do with panics and tantrums, or passing out, interactions like that that get priority over others all the time. Perhaps its some sort of a system glitch based off of that priority mechanic.
To say "I don't play like you." Is kind of missing the point of discussing the ways this glitch manifests. What would be more helpful is for more simmers that let their sims have free-reign weigh in on what sorts of actions get queued and then sim-canceled for no reason. That would be really interesting to hear about, and possibly really funny.
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Yes, I think they meant it to be a realistic touch, the Sims even get more thirsty by doing sports for example, which is a nice touch. But the problem for me is that drinking is lowering the bladder so much. I tend to avoid coffee for that reason too. I think perhaps the bladder need shouldn't be lowered if the Sims is thirsty. That way you'd only need to pee if you drink too much.
@Neia
You're probably right about performance cost. I haven't really thought through the logistics of it; was kinda just spitballing theory. And yes, I agree about predictability. I think it'd have to be done in a way that allows for randomness in some way, or it would just be a set of predictable actions.
Good to know about thirst and hand washing. I didn't realize there was a separate hand hygiene need; makes sense though. I was looking around for something like that at one point, but I think I was looking in the wrong places. Wasn't occurring to me to look for a need specific to washing hands.
That is curious about the greeting. I wonder now how the mechanics of it work. I don't think I've ever looked much into that particular aspect of the game.
I think that'd be a good change. ^^ That or just tweak way down how much bladder gets reduced from drinking. I've always found it weird how fast it decreases from drinking water.
I'm not sure how it works in the code, but I think what'd be more realistic is if drinking gives you a temporary buff that increases the bladder decay rate by a small amount. Something like 1.1, or 1.2, for 2 sim hours. Then it's more true to life where the drinking has an ongoing impact on your bladder. And then if you pee before the buff dissipates, peeing removes it. (Granted, this might be too much of an overlapping priorities "creating a problem" out of a solution way to do it, since you might get decay rate fighting for priority, with things like pregnancy potentially getting screwed up. I'm not sure about the modifiers for stuff like decay rate in buffs when they are numbers other than 0, if it factors them together at all, or if it chooses one as the priority and ignores the rest.)
And a side note for anyone who may be interested, the fix for Active Trait sims having their exercise canceled to go Dream Big that I mentioned in the edit of my other post... it's now up on MTS: http://modthesims.info/download.php?t=595966
As for babies and checking on toddlers and the like, interestingly, it seems to me like they wanted to make sure that toddlers wouldn't be a case of being ignored, so they made sure that sims (particularly those who have a toddler as care dependent) will check on them regularly, even if the toddler doesn't need anything in that particular moment. It may be slightly overtuned and it probably could be adjusted, though I don't know myself enough about the numbers of it to guess at how things would need to be adjusted in that situation.
I haven't played with babies much, but if they are being ignored, I bet they could set them up with the same "adopt as care dependent" mechanics, so that caregivers will regularly check on the baby, like they do with toddlers.
But yeah, happy to be of help and share what I know.
This makes zero sense to me. The exceptions are minor; making it a universal rule that player-queue'ed actions carry more weight, then defining the exceptions, seems like far less work and less headaches than individually attempting to define each player-queue'ed action that should carry more weight. The exceptions are obvious: a need in the red, the action reaches completion (work, sleep, eating), special events (abduction, fire) and a couple other misc exceptions and that's that. By contrast, defining player-queue'ed actions that carry more weight manually and individually means you're going through hundreds-if-not-thousands of potential scenarios, and it's no wonder some would slip through.
Functional player-prioritizing doesn't mean autonomy functions less, either. It just means autonomy cannot override your actions and can only sit in the queue waiting for you to allow it's existence or cancel it out.
Perhaps I didn't explain it well enough then. There's a default at start where user-based is guaranted and autonomy is inertial, and thousands of "obvious" exceptions that handle when an interaction should exit, cancel, go inertial, etc afterward (basically how long should it last ?). These exceptions are needed because otherwise the Sims would be robots/trapped as soon as you tell them to do anything; but they are numerous because there's a huge diversity of situations/interactions. You can't apply the same rule to watching TV and using the toilets.
Of course we don't want sims with autonomy on to just stand doing nothing until given a new command, but if I give a command to my sim the command shouldn't be ignored or cancelled by the sim.
Just an example with the Parenthood pack. The table with blocks for the toddlers (sorry I don't remember the name, but if you have the pack you should know which I'm talking about since it's the only one), my sims were constantly cancelling commands, and stopping to do what they were doing to go play with it, my adult sims by the way not my toddlers (somehow my toddlers don't give a 🐸🐸🐸🐸 about that table), their energy need were in the red, I commanded them to go to bed, they went for a second, then got back up right away to go play with the blocks, I commanded again to go to bed, the sim went for a second, then got back up to go play with the 🐸🐸🐸🐸 table, that's something that shouldn't happen even with autonomy on, my only choice was to sell the table. If I command my sim to go sleep, the sim shouldn't just get back up after a second to go play with a toy, make ice cream or chat with an other sim, specially when the need is in the red.
So yea I want my sims with autonomy on to do stuff by themselves if I don't give them any commands, but if I give a command? My command should be executed, I don't give a command to my sim to use the toilet to see my sim cancel it to go craft something on the wood table, and then pee himself cause his bladder was in the red.
The only exceptions that I can understand cancel my commands are events like a fire, witnessing a death or being abducted by the aliens, that I can understand that it cancel commands.
Except you can. Sims 1, Sims 2 and Sims 3 all did a wonderful job of figuring out when player-queue'ed actions should remain and when they should be overridden. Sims 4 cannot do this, for whatever reason. Whether that reason be a failure of multitasking, poor priorities/programming regarding guarenteed vs. intertial or what-have-you, I really don't care. I don't care because it's obvious they succeeded at this system thrice in the past, so whatever the cause may be, it's inexcuseable.
Sims in Sims 1, 2 and 3 can all be assigned to watch TV or to use the bathroom without being trapped to the TV or toilet and without failing to understand when they can cease the action. Sims 4 sims by contrast are eager to abandon a fair amount of player-assigned tasks, while likewise eager to queue up actions regardless of the scenario. (a Sim with max fun might obsess over a nearby TV)
There's a problem. Sitting here and discussing why that problem exists seems pointless to me, because you're more or less trying to tell me a system that's existed thrice already is suddenly super hard to do. If this were the first game ever and we didn't know how to resolve this issue, sure, let's discuss the cause, but here...? They've already succeeded thrice. There's simply no excuse for why the Sims 4 has such poor optimization with action priority. The only scenarios where I think discussing the cause would be of any use would be if A.) the Devs were explicitly asking us to help pinpoint the problem so they could fix it or B.) the cause itself helped suggest a workaround or why this problem might worsen/improve on it's own in the near future.
I shared the info that the system was there to help. I then answered questions about how it works because people were curious and you even started discussing about it. Now if you'd rather complain about the AI being abysimal and not give specifics unless asked to do so by the devs, fine, go ahead. I just shared what I thought would be helpful.
So I am lying that happened in my game it might have not in yours but you don't have my game so how would you know?
Repose en paix mamie tu va me manquer :
1923-2016 mamie
Anyways, I have this too. I've been telling my teen sim to hack or create video games, and then leave him alone, because i'm a lax player. I let them do what they want on high autonomy. I've never played any other way.
But after a while he queues an action to watch tv, Its always tv, and stops. I always thought he just finished since i don't sit there and look at him. only to go assign him later in the day and see "Continue [action]". I've been trying to get him to finish the exact same video game for several sim weeks.
I wonder whats up with the odd action cancelling too. The same sims dad will fix something and the teen will IMMEDIATELY zoom over to dig through the scrap pile despite not having the repair skill. I cancel it and he will complete the action anyway. Then i have to go dig out repair parts and give them to his dad.
High autonomy never meant the sims do whatever they want no matter what I saw. So i mean...ya'll trippin.
That, to my understanding, is the primary difference in the systems. They made sims "smarter" in TS4, when operating independently, and thus it came with its own set of problems, some of those problems being associated with playstyles that involve micromanaging (which some had become accustomed to from previous sims titles).
What you are saying in this post is frankly crowd-pleasing nonsense. I get it, you are being the voice of, "We want we want, give it to us now!" Congratulations for playing the crowd. The reality is, TS4 is designed as it is designed and has been designed as it is for over 2 years. That you have the gall to talk like actions in TS4 are an abject failure, while implying that it's easy to fix, amidst more than one person sharing details about the workings of the code with you, while you pull back to say that the details don't matter, is some of the most intellectually dishonest behavior I've seen from you. And I'm saying this from the perspective of having a certain amount of respect for your interest in fact and logic, despite not always agreeing with how you go about it, or most of your positions.
It's one thing to critique. It's another thing to sensationalize. And this "shoot the messenger", "the devs can figure it out themselves" stuff is not remotely constructive, or adds a single 🐸🐸🐸🐸 thing to discussions about the sims series. For someone who is usually so ready to write a ten page manuscript on what needs changing, you sure are shutting down in the face of an actual detailed discussion about the workings of the game. It seems like a copout to me. After all, how can you lose an argument if you dismiss the details out of hand? I've seen that tactic before. Heck, I've used it before throughout my life. It's a face-saving tactic, nothing more. You're better than that.
Which people? You've been addressing me for a full page now, and that's what I'm questioning: why?
Look, this started with you providing useful info that a player-action weight system does exist, and I thank you for that. However, where are we now? You and I are both theorizing the exact causes of this problem and neither of us have absolute proof. It's probably a mix of all named issues (multitasking, bad values, inertial vs. guarenteed), but even if I were 100% right or you're 100% right...? It makes zero difference. The problem still exists, and the devs aren't exactly here asking us to spitball theories, thus theories are currently rather useless.
I made this thread to bring light to the issue, get a tally of how many people have it, get a tally of the various situations where it's common, and to hopefully get this issue on the radar. Theorizing the exact cause doesn't assist with that. It might be useful if the devs were to ask for ideas when exploring the problem, but that's not happening, so I'd rather not get into some pointless debate about theories when there's better things to discuss. If there are others who want you to keep telling you their theories, by all means go for it. Not trying to scare you off or make you feel unwelcome, I'm just saying that at this point in our discussion, I'm asking myself "what is the purpose of this" and I'm not getting an answer. I don't see the point in theorizing when both of us are in the dark, at least not at this point in time. I'd welcome facts, hard evidence and information, but this has devolved into theorizing, so I'mma bow out and I'd thank you not to tag me for future posts regarding possible causes for this problem. I just want it fixed, so possible causes don't interest me unless they lead to workarounds, common links to help identify when the problem will arise or other such useful info.
Sorry if I was rather hostile. My patience is thin around here lately...for good reason, but not for any reason that you gave me, so perhaps I was a bit harsh with my response.
@Triplis
Seriously now, I feel like at times some of you guys are just here to argue:
Half the arguments I'm seeing are "actually it's working this way because Sims 4 is just TOO danged amazing. It's so amazing it causes problems." It's like an attempt to rewrite the issue into a positive. Look, if you wanna do that, go nuts. I have no interest in discussing whether this is a sign of terriawful AI or Sims 4 being TOO amazing and TOO advanced and that's why it causes problems. All I care about is that I have consistent issues in this game, the issues have never been this bad before, past games are evidence they CAN fix these issues, and so I want them fixed.
^Thank you for proving my point with the above snippet. You're not here to discuss the issue in and of itself, you're here to argue with me because I expressed discontent with Sims 4. This entire above snippet is just full of emotion and more or less an attack on me. I mean the idea that....the idea that I made this thread to be a crowdpleaser or gain popularity or something....don't you think it makes more sense that I'm genuinely sick to death of this issue? Don't you think the immediate little onslaught I got (and continue to get) suggests it'd be odd if I viewed this as a "crowd pleaser?" Dude, I voice my opinion. That's it. And yes, I'm absolutely sick of this particular issue, and yes, when we're talking about issues that have existed for over two years, you're not gonna see me tiptoe around it and say "oh but I understand you're busy plugging the new Stuff pack in the newest patch notes devs, so if you can't fix this then that's ok and I understand.
It's very simple: THREE GAMES all successfully provided proper player-weighting on actions, Sims 4 dropped the ball on this. Whether it dropped the ball because the tech in Sims 4 is highly advanced and complex and this issue is perfectly understandable how it arose, or it's a result of shortsighted planning with the multitasking and additional systems of Sims 4...? I don't care, that's irrelevant. For all I care, this issue arose because God himself was so busy blessing EA/Maxis and throwing a party for them for this fantastic game that they all ran late to work the day they were supposed to iron this out. All I know is that it's 100% possible to create the system I'm asking for. The first three games are evidence of this, and quite a few people seem annoyed with this particular issue I've raised. That's all I want: raise awareness on this issue and hope it gets fixed.
Because it's off-topic.
Here's the two topics for you:
1) "I have this issue where Sims cancel my actions and I hate it. Does anyone else have it? Do you hate it too? When does it seem to frequently occur/during what actions? Can we get this fixed?"
2) "I think action weight functions this way and that it's more productive to program the game by not utilizing a universal rule that player-assigned actions carry more weight because A, B, and C."
No, these are not the same topic. They may be close to each other, they may be tangents, but they are not the same.
No, I am not impeding progress by not partaking in this discussion. I've yet to see evidence that Neia is speaking as an absolute authority (aka that beyond acknowledging there is coding in place to give player actions more weight, he can only theorize why it's failing at times), and that means we're all stabbing in the dark. Drop me a line when the devs actively ASK us to help pinpoint what causes the issue, and then we can gladly theorize on this.
No, theories without support do not DEMAND respect. Come back when you or Neia have absolute, strong evidence for any of your theories and I would be more than happy to hear you out. Until then I welcome you to discuss your theories with people here who may be interested, but no, I am not interested, I am not under an obligation to entertain these theories and yeah I'm gonna get annoyed when not only am I repeatedly mentioned so I get a notification to theories I don't care about, but you're now attempting to afford yourself some sort of moral high ground by speaking as though I'm acting terrible or irrational or something for not caring about those theories with minimal support.
The ONLY snippet of new, potentially-helpful info named thusfar is Neia confirming for us a system to give player-assigned actions more weight does exist, though clearly we can see it's prone to malfunctioning. Everything else has been speculation. I thank Neia for that snippet and I'd welcome more concrete info or concrete evidence, but no, I don't want to delve into theories when I don't think this is the time or the place.
And when you come into my thread and make statements like these:
It makes it clear you're not here to acknowledge this problem, but to try and downplay it to defend Sims 4. The amount of cases or if it's "many" or "few".... who cares?! Clearly there's enough that a LOT of people are bothered by Sims 4's AI, so who cares what percent of the actions it is? You care, and with that snippet and the snippet above, it's clear you're simply upset with me for dissing Sims 4's AI. Ok, good for you. Go be sad elsewhere, I'm out of patience for people telling me it's my responsibility to word things in a super complimentary way towards Sims 4 so they don't cry.
"Too Long, Didn't Read Summary:" Both of you are theorizing. If you have concrete evidence for your claims or some form of informative insights into the issue, by all means show it, and you're welcome to theorize amongst yourselves. However, the purpose of this thread is simply to tally up people running into this issue, tally up instances where this issue occurs, and push for a fix. Theorizing distracts from this and delves into a tangent topic. Discussing a tangent topic is one thing....discussing a tangent topic and then acting like I'm being an irrational jerk for refusing to abandon the initial purpose of the thread to blindly theorize with you two....? Yeah, that's not gonna happen.
I have never tried to hide the fact that I like TS4. Naturally, that means my arguments are more often going to fall on the end of a perspective on the game that is positive. That doesn't mean my arguments are automatically wrong.
You want to act like you're being targeted, but then you'll act like a dbag to people who are meeting you on the terms that you so often ask for; having a discussion and/or debate with facts and logic. I get that some people at some times target criticism of this game with a level of unfair and dismissive ire, but that doesn't give you license to go off on anyone who challenges your positions; at that point, you're just being the thing that you hate.
You want a debate, have a debate. You don't get to do a fallback maneuver to save face or play the victim when your arguments are failing; it's disingenuous and goes against the very ideals that you preach, undermining the core of most of what you say. It's more damaging to your own efforts than it is to anyone who becomes the target of your ire. Realize that if I only cared about TS4 being perceived in a positive light, I would let you self-destruct your own efforts without saying a word. It's because I care about ideals to do with logic and reason, and about the environment on this forum being constructive, that I care enough to say what I'm saying.
Then what are you here to do? What on earth was the purpose of your last post except to argue?
No points were raised, nothing of value was said. It was a giant "you should be ashamed of yourself" and that was it. (same with this post too)
Nah. They do. Absent-minded sims forget what you told them to do all the time. They're absent-minded. There is also an occurrence that happens in buildings with elevators. They're not necessarily cancelling. They're just running out of time for what you queued them to do if there are several other sims in the way. It makes it seem like they're cancelling your direction due to routing errors.
Also, when one of their needs is in the red, your sim will often drop your directions to tend to their needs. It's absolutely horrible. Unacceptable. Etc. Mind the joke.
Oddly, S4 sims cancelling actions for no reason whatsoever is completely acceptable. At least with 2 and 3, routing and motives are the main issue. Too many sims trying to do the same thing at once=cancelled player actions. Sims motives in the red=cancelled player actions.
In Sims 4. Reading a book=cancelled player actions. Performing everyday actions like showering and then using the toilet afterwards=cancelled player actions. Directing them to eat when they're hungry=cancelled player actions. Etc.
To be fair. I haven't played S4 in a while. That was just my last experience.
Baby hoarding has been a problem since S2. I had mods to beat it. I yell at my sims in S3 when the maid steals my baby. It's a real thing. It's happened more than once. Locking doors solves it. In S4, I'm beyond accepting this fallacy in coding.
Enough is enough. I want a better game. It's what I hoped for. I'm not getting a better game though. I'm just getting the same errors over and over in different flavours ad nauseam. In many ways, I feel like I'm getting more issues with each iteration. I'm simply tired of it, but I'm not willing to dismiss any of the errors of the past. There is no reason for me to do so. Those errors of the past are what is making me less tolerant each time.
It's the errors of the past that leave me pining for a better game. But I'm not fool enough to believe because I was told it is a new game. A different game. Etc. That I should excuse any of the failures of the past or the present. The problems are still there, and they continue to compound.
A horse is a horse is a horse.