And as for raising prices? Are you kidding? This game is over 500 dollars to date. That figure will increase. Expansions are almost the cost of a brand new game and are lacking.
Making the game more expensive will not fix the issues.
y'all gotta prep yourselves for the possibility of $50 expansions when sims 5 rolls around. sims 4 is quite cheap compared to its predecessors. you can't look at sims 2 and sims 3's prices without understanding when they came out.
both sims 2 and sims 3's expansions cost $40usd at the time of their release. same price as sims 4 right? not exactly. inflation has risen over the last few years, making sims 2's expansions costing $47usd in today's dollars and sims 3 $44usd in todays dollars (these are figures based on the last expansion released, its more around the 50 dollar mark for sims 2 for the earlier expansions).
oh it just a few dollar difference...ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh...it can make a huge difference when a wide amount of copies are being sold.
let's give a good rounded number of 1 million products sold at that price before retailers put it on sale: that's 7 million dollars lost in comparison to what we got in sims 2. and its 4 million dollars lost in comparison to sims 3 per 1 million products sold. give or take.
and people keep wondering why we keep loosing certain things in expansions. that's.........kinda why. cause they're not making the money that they used to on expansions. its the same price, but loosing money. sims 4 is honestly trekking along just fine and making EA enough money to not 🐸🐸🐸🐸 off their investors, that the $40 cost is still working, most people buy it online these days reducing the amount of physical copies they have to make, and direct access through origin has also helped with cutting out the middle man of physical retailers (they're still around though, you can find physical copies still, just its not as much as it used to be).
they've also been bumping up certain locations in cost to make their money back cause they know it won't kick up much of a fuss than raising the prices in america (biggest sign that $50 expansions are around the corner).
in a few years, let's say 2022 when sims 5 comes out (might be sooner, might be later), they're gonna have to release their first expansion...sims 2, sims 3, sims 4 they all had $40 expansions. sims 1 had $30 expansions, converted to today's dollars it cost around $42 usd (again, last expansion figure). even freakin' sims 1 cost more than sims 4 when comparing the prices it was released at. that was....nearing 20 years ago, and over 20 years ago when sims 5 comes around. i'd prep for $50 expansions if i were you, just come to terms with it now might make it easier to face when it may come.
Yep pretty much what it has going for it the most. I think it will become outdated even with graphics fairly soon just because games these days have better tech and graphics. I mean I'm even going to get the chance to try out cloud based gaming. They always raise price with each iteration and Sims 4 is the most expensive Sims game yet with the packs with packs totaling $600 so far and I wouldn't be shocked if it reached $1,000 to get the complete pack DLC experience.
Actually the Sims 3 is the most expensive. Back when the game was still supported it would cost $780 total for the Base Game, all EP's and SP's and if you throw in the Sims 3 Store well over $3000.
Yes, and Store stuff came out gradually and, of course one had to have the "Gold" pack and it was all in Simoleons so one didn't know the cost mounting up. Those Simoleons didn't go very far when you just want all the building stuff too. It's the mother of all Loot boxes for addicts.
I spent loads on Sims 3 and when trying it out again when Windows 10 came out I was not recognised as the owner of them. Was it the DRM? I don't play it anymore.
I love the graphics on Sims 4 and prefer them to earlier game ones. I collect screenshots and use them all the time as Windows slideshow backgrounds, changing them every day.
Yep pretty much what it has going for it the most. I think it will become outdated even with graphics fairly soon just because games these days have better tech and graphics. I mean I'm even going to get the chance to try out cloud based gaming. They always raise price with each iteration and Sims 4 is the most expensive Sims game yet with the packs with packs totaling $600 so far and I wouldn't be shocked if it reached $1,000 to get the complete pack DLC experience.
Actually the Sims 3 is the most expensive. Back when the game was still supported it would cost $780 total for the Base Game, all EP's and SP's and if you throw in the Sims 3 Store well over $3000.
Actually that’s not true.
If you buy the sims 3 right now
Sims 3 expansions 29.99 x 11 = 329.89
Stuff packs 14.99 x 9= 134.91
= £464.80
Not to mention sims 4 has an additional stuff pack and game pack on the way and three more years worth of content. Sims 4 is more expensive. That is a fact.
Excluding store content as that’s not essential and you actually get free sims points with every expansion registered. I should know as I have 8GB of free store content thanks to that and watching ads.
And that is today’s prices. During the original sims 3 run I didn’t pay those prices. I paid £10 for a stuff pack and £24 for an expansion.
Today's prices yes but as I said back when the game was still being supported EP's where $10 higher and the SP's $15 higher at least where I live. And I own everthing that was ever in the Store including all the Special Promotions and other stuff.
Not all regions where the same. Some had to pay more. So in my area it was in fact $780.
I’ll repeat: with Sims 3 (indeed a very expensive game) you have the full experience with just the EP’s. Nobody ‘needs’ the SP’s and on the forums I was active on back in the day when it was still under development, hardly any of the kids who played Sims 3 bought those SP’s. They didn’t even pay attention to it on that forum (which annoyed me because they did interest me, I wanted it all but that’s a different matter). What’s more, most of those kids didn’t even buy every EP. Not because they didn’t play the game, they did, they just didn’t have the money. Yet they played and enjoyed the game.
For Sims 4 I see a completely different pattern. People who like the game are clearly constantly hungry for more stuff, because what they have isn’t enough. They constantly need more, new, shiny stuff. And they buy it all, also because most GP’s are better than most EP’s for the game and they contain more than just stuff.
Sorry, but EA became smarter where it comes to marketing. You really think they left Sims 3’s sales strategy because they were concerned about your wallet?
Sims 3, basegame €59 + all EP’s = € 499. Sure you could buy a lot more if you wanted to, but you didn’t have to. Like you don’t have to buy everything a store sells, you can choose.
Sims 4, all in, by now (following what @MidnightAura says) = €545 and they are not done yet. And fans don’t want them to be done, they even get angry when you suggest it’s time to round up because there’s still too much missing. I love and loved Sims 3 but I never had that feeling when they announced Sims 4 and that was even before we got IP and ITF.
Sims 4 is a very expensive game. And that is comparing different versions in the same franchise. The games my son plays are like €60/€70 and he gets the full experience for that price.
No I don’t feel this way. Yes it’s pretty but it has many other things that are great about it. CAS, build mode, multitasking, being able to easily travel to all worlds without mods. I like a lot about sims 4 in comparison to sims 3. Honestly tend to prefer it and I loved sims 3 when it was out and advocated for it when others didn’t. I just like certain things about 4 better and I have a hard time returning to sims 3 now. I find the systems like holidays, fame and even the vampire system are the best we’ve ever had. Toddlers are fantastic and I hated them in sims 2 and 3. Sims 4 has a lot going for it and it still has a few years to go.
Yes the game is buggy but so were it’s predecessors that’s just a common theme among sims games. We can only hope they don’t leave it a mess like sims 3.
I hate that people feel this way about sims 4 but not everyone will like every sims game and I know that. We all want different things. There were a lot on the dislike train for 3 as well because it was too different from 2. I guess I just accept each game for what it is. They are the same series but they tend to be drastically different in a lot of ways. I didn’t like 4 at first but after it was out for a few years (2017) I really started playing and haven’t stopped. Maybe sims 5 if it comes will be a perfect combo of all three games, taking the best from each. Wishful thinking for some I know but I’m hopeful.
I actually prefer having bigger worlds that we can change, over being able to travel to other worlds. But that's just me.
Yep pretty much what it has going for it the most. I think it will become outdated even with graphics fairly soon just because games these days have better tech and graphics. I mean I'm even going to get the chance to try out cloud based gaming. They always raise price with each iteration and Sims 4 is the most expensive Sims game yet with the packs with packs totaling $600 so far and I wouldn't be shocked if it reached $1,000 to get the complete pack DLC experience.
Actually the Sims 3 is the most expensive. Back when the game was still supported it would cost $780 total for the Base Game, all EP's and SP's and if you throw in the Sims 3 Store well over $3000.
Actually that’s not true.
If you buy the sims 3 right now
Sims 3 expansions 29.99 x 11 = 329.89
Stuff packs 14.99 x 9= 134.91
= £464.80
Not to mention sims 4 has an additional stuff pack and game pack on the way and three more years worth of content. Sims 4 is more expensive. That is a fact.
Excluding store content as that’s not essential and you actually get free sims points with every expansion registered. I should know as I have 8GB of free store content thanks to that and watching ads.
And that is today’s prices. During the original sims 3 run I didn’t pay those prices. I paid £10 for a stuff pack and £24 for an expansion.
Today's prices yes but as I said back when the game was still being supported EP's where $10 higher and the SP's $15 higher at least where I live. And I own everthing that was ever in the Store including all the Special Promotions and other stuff.
Not all regions where the same. Some had to pay more. So in my area it was in fact $780.
I’ll repeat: with Sims 3 (indeed a very expensive game) you have the full experience with just the EP’s. Nobody ‘needs’ the SP’s and on the forums I was active on back in the day when it was still under development, hardly any of the kids who played Sims 3 bought those SP’s. They didn’t even pay attention to it on that forum (which annoyed me because they did interest me, I wanted it all but that’s a different matter). What’s more, most of those kids didn’t even buy every EP. Not because they didn’t play the game, they did, they just didn’t have the money. Yet they played and enjoyed the game.
For Sims 4 I see a completely different pattern. People who like the game are clearly constantly hungry for more stuff, because what they have isn’t enough. They constantly need more, new, shiny stuff. And they buy it all, also because most GP’s are better than most EP’s for the game and they contain more than just stuff.
Sorry, but EA became smarter where it comes to marketing. You really think they left Sims 3’s sales strategy because they were concerned about your wallet?
Sims 3, basegame €59 + all EP’s = € 499. Sure you could buy a lot more if you wanted to, but you didn’t have to. Like you don’t have to buy everything a store sells, you can choose.
Sims 4, all in, by now (following what @MidnightAura says) = €545 and they are not done yet. And fans don’t want them to be done, they even get angry when you suggest it’s time to round up because there’s still too much missing. I love and loved Sims 3 but I never had that feeling when they announced Sims 4 and that was even before we got IP and ITF.
Sims 4 is a very expensive game. And that is comparing different versions in the same franchise. The games my son plays are like €60/€70 and he gets the full experience for that price.
At least you know what you will have to pay upfront with Sims 4 and not 3 unless you exercise control over the Store items. I don't regret what I've paid as I've built up the game from day one and played it almost every day. It's only roughly £100 per year for a hobby. I wonder what Lego packs cost or Fortnite addicts might pay out to get their loot packs per year or those who party and dine out? (Lego Dimensions... "The grand total comes to $334.85. And that's without tax." (IGN)
I might have bought a full game for £40 or over and only played it a week. I've done that with a few games in my long playing time. Sims4 still the prettiest and enjoyable for me!
Colorful at least. I like the new sims for the most part and clothing looks nice.
I still don't care for the low detail meshes and textures. They did do a good job making it look pretty however. Playing from a further distance helps a lot with that, but I usually play down in the game and all up in my sims faces with a lot of camera action, instead of from above and never moving around the camera much.
It has a lot of nice new features, but I would expect that in the next iteration of the game, but not while dropping a lop of great features from past games.
It goes beyond graphics. Build mode and CAS, for instance, are far better than TS3. And no multitasking in TS3 is a big step back.
You can’t take a step back when you came first. At most you could say multitasking in Sims 4 is a move forward. You could, if they’d done it properly.
I was talking about TS3 retrospectively. Meaning, when you play TS3 now, not being able to multitask like you can in TS4 is a big deal. Your mileage may vary.
It goes beyond graphics. Build mode and CAS, for instance, are far better than TS3. And no multitasking in TS3 is a big step back.
You can’t take a step back when you came first. At most you could say multitasking in Sims 4 is a move forward. You could, if they’d done it properly.
I was talking about TS3 retrospectively. Meaning, when you play TS3 now, not being able to multitask like you can in TS4 is a big deal. Your mileage may vary.
Honestly I don't miss it when playing TS2 or TS3. As a matter of fact it makes me happy that sims actually do what I tell them lol
Yep pretty much what it has going for it the most. I think it will become outdated even with graphics fairly soon just because games these days have better tech and graphics. I mean I'm even going to get the chance to try out cloud based gaming. They always raise price with each iteration and Sims 4 is the most expensive Sims game yet with the packs with packs totaling $600 so far and I wouldn't be shocked if it reached $1,000 to get the complete pack DLC experience.
Actually the Sims 3 is the most expensive. Back when the game was still supported it would cost $780 total for the Base Game, all EP's and SP's and if you throw in the Sims 3 Store well over $3000.
Actually that’s not true.
If you buy the sims 3 right now
Sims 3 expansions 29.99 x 11 = 329.89
Stuff packs 14.99 x 9= 134.91
= £464.80
Not to mention sims 4 has an additional stuff pack and game pack on the way and three more years worth of content. Sims 4 is more expensive. That is a fact.
Excluding store content as that’s not essential and you actually get free sims points with every expansion registered. I should know as I have 8GB of free store content thanks to that and watching ads.
And that is today’s prices. During the original sims 3 run I didn’t pay those prices. I paid £10 for a stuff pack and £24 for an expansion.
Today's prices yes but as I said back when the game was still being supported EP's where $10 higher and the SP's $15 higher at least where I live. And I own everthing that was ever in the Store including all the Special Promotions and other stuff.
Not all regions where the same. Some had to pay more. So in my area it was in fact $780.
I’ll repeat: with Sims 3 (indeed a very expensive game) you have the full experience with just the EP’s. Nobody ‘needs’ the SP’s and on the forums I was active on back in the day when it was still under development, hardly any of the kids who played Sims 3 bought those SP’s. They didn’t even pay attention to it on that forum (which annoyed me because they did interest me, I wanted it all but that’s a different matter). What’s more, most of those kids didn’t even buy every EP. Not because they didn’t play the game, they did, they just didn’t have the money. Yet they played and enjoyed the game.
For Sims 4 I see a completely different pattern. People who like the game are clearly constantly hungry for more stuff, because what they have isn’t enough. They constantly need more, new, shiny stuff. And they buy it all, also because most GP’s are better than most EP’s for the game and they contain more than just stuff.
Sorry, but EA became smarter where it comes to marketing. You really think they left Sims 3’s sales strategy because they were concerned about your wallet?
Sims 3, basegame €59 + all EP’s = € 499. Sure you could buy a lot more if you wanted to, but you didn’t have to. Like you don’t have to buy everything a store sells, you can choose.
Sims 4, all in, by now (following what @MidnightAura says) = €545 and they are not done yet. And fans don’t want them to be done, they even get angry when you suggest it’s time to round up because there’s still too much missing. I love and loved Sims 3 but I never had that feeling when they announced Sims 4 and that was even before we got IP and ITF.
Sims 4 is a very expensive game. And that is comparing different versions in the same franchise. The games my son plays are like €60/€70 and he gets the full experience for that price.
At least you know what you will have to pay upfront with Sims 4 and not 3 unless you exercise control over the Store items. I don't regret what I've paid as I've built up the game from day one and played it almost every day. It's only roughly £100 per year for a hobby. I wonder what Lego packs cost or Fortnite addicts might pay out to get their loot packs per year or those who party and dine out? (Lego Dimensions... "The grand total comes to $334.85. And that's without tax." (IGN)
I might have bought a full game for £40 or over and only played it a week. I've done that with a few games in my long playing time. Sims4 still the prettiest and enjoyable for me!
But with sims 3 you do know, the prices are clearly stated and the game is complete. I posted earlier the total cost for the sims 3. Store is irrelevant as you don’t need the store stuff and indeed you can get parts for free via registration of expansions.
Sims 4 we know is already over £500. We know it will be a further £30 if you want the dlc coming this year but we have no idea how it will work next year or even next quarter.
It goes beyond graphics. Build mode and CAS, for instance, are far better than TS3. And no multitasking in TS3 is a big step back.
You can’t take a step back when you came first. At most you could say multitasking in Sims 4 is a move forward. You could, if they’d done it properly.
I was talking about TS3 retrospectively. Meaning, when you play TS3 now, not being able to multitask like you can in TS4 is a big deal. Your mileage may vary.
Honestly I don't miss it when playing TS2 or TS3. As a matter of fact it makes me happy that sims actually do what I tell them lol
Same! That and no dropped queue interactions and no simulation lag!
Yep pretty much what it has going for it the most. I think it will become outdated even with graphics fairly soon just because games these days have better tech and graphics. I mean I'm even going to get the chance to try out cloud based gaming. They always raise price with each iteration and Sims 4 is the most expensive Sims game yet with the packs with packs totaling $600 so far and I wouldn't be shocked if it reached $1,000 to get the complete pack DLC experience.
Actually the Sims 3 is the most expensive. Back when the game was still supported it would cost $780 total for the Base Game, all EP's and SP's and if you throw in the Sims 3 Store well over $3000.
Actually that’s not true.
If you buy the sims 3 right now
Sims 3 expansions 29.99 x 11 = 329.89
Stuff packs 14.99 x 9= 134.91
= £464.80
Not to mention sims 4 has an additional stuff pack and game pack on the way and three more years worth of content. Sims 4 is more expensive. That is a fact.
Excluding store content as that’s not essential and you actually get free sims points with every expansion registered. I should know as I have 8GB of free store content thanks to that and watching ads.
And that is today’s prices. During the original sims 3 run I didn’t pay those prices. I paid £10 for a stuff pack and £24 for an expansion.
Today's prices yes but as I said back when the game was still being supported EP's where $10 higher and the SP's $15 higher at least where I live. And I own everthing that was ever in the Store including all the Special Promotions and other stuff.
Not all regions where the same. Some had to pay more. So in my area it was in fact $780.
I’ll repeat: with Sims 3 (indeed a very expensive game) you have the full experience with just the EP’s. Nobody ‘needs’ the SP’s and on the forums I was active on back in the day when it was still under development, hardly any of the kids who played Sims 3 bought those SP’s. They didn’t even pay attention to it on that forum (which annoyed me because they did interest me, I wanted it all but that’s a different matter). What’s more, most of those kids didn’t even buy every EP. Not because they didn’t play the game, they did, they just didn’t have the money. Yet they played and enjoyed the game.
For Sims 4 I see a completely different pattern. People who like the game are clearly constantly hungry for more stuff, because what they have isn’t enough. They constantly need more, new, shiny stuff. And they buy it all, also because most GP’s are better than most EP’s for the game and they contain more than just stuff.
Sorry, but EA became smarter where it comes to marketing. You really think they left Sims 3’s sales strategy because they were concerned about your wallet?
Sims 3, basegame €59 + all EP’s = € 499. Sure you could buy a lot more if you wanted to, but you didn’t have to. Like you don’t have to buy everything a store sells, you can choose.
Sims 4, all in, by now (following what @MidnightAura says) = €545 and they are not done yet. And fans don’t want them to be done, they even get angry when you suggest it’s time to round up because there’s still too much missing. I love and loved Sims 3 but I never had that feeling when they announced Sims 4 and that was even before we got IP and ITF.
Sims 4 is a very expensive game. And that is comparing different versions in the same franchise. The games my son plays are like €60/€70 and he gets the full experience for that price.
This where we'll have to agree to disagree and my experience as a modder, programmer and being able to read game code comes in handy.
First the Store:
Riverview was originally supposed to have been shipped with the Base Game. In an unpatched freshly installed BG the references to Riverview in the games core files clearly shows me this it's as if they yanked it out just so they could put it up on the Store and say "See we're giving you something for free". Also there is a lot and I do mean a lot of Store Items that is heavily referenced in the games core files those things where originally part of the game but where yanked out at the last minute; the Cow Plant is another good example of this it's so heavily referenced it's undeniable; about half the game was yanked out and placed on the Store and that doesn't even count the Store Worlds.
Barnacle Bay has heavy references within the WA game files so many it looks as if it was originally a part it. Hidden Springs also has heavy references within the Ambitions game files in fact all but 2 Store Worlds (Lunar Lakes and Roaring Heights) all have heavy references in one EP or another.
As for the SP's nearly half of them unlock things in the game you will never see unless you own them even though the code is already part of the BG and has been for some time (months and even a year before they where released) and in some cases the code has always been there as the dates show going by the developer notes left behind in the game files.
Don't get me wrong I'm a huge Sims 3 fan but from what I've seen in the game core files that it is the most expensive and if you want the full game experience you need more then just the EP's.
And yes the Sims 4 is expensive and their not done with it yet and yes they did get smarter with their marketing as the Sims 3 Store didn't give them what they wanted. They had hoped for a gold mine and didn't get it as most people didn't take the bait and instead angered them.
I'm just a little bit crazy LOL
Okay actually I'm totally and completely nuts LOL
No I don’t feel this way. Yes it’s pretty but it has many other things that are great about it. CAS, build mode, multitasking, being able to easily travel to all worlds without mods. I like a lot about sims 4 in comparison to sims 3. Honestly tend to prefer it and I loved sims 3 when it was out and advocated for it when others didn’t. I just like certain things about 4 better and I have a hard time returning to sims 3 now. I find the systems like holidays, fame and even the vampire system are the best we’ve ever had. Toddlers are fantastic and I hated them in sims 2 and 3. Sims 4 has a lot going for it and it still has a few years to go.
Yes the game is buggy but so were it’s predecessors that’s just a common theme among sims games. We can only hope they don’t leave it a mess like sims 3.
I hate that people feel this way about sims 4 but not everyone will like every sims game and I know that. We all want different things. There were a lot on the dislike train for 3 as well because it was too different from 2. I guess I just accept each game for what it is. They are the same series but they tend to be drastically different in a lot of ways. I didn’t like 4 at first but after it was out for a few years (2017) I really started playing and haven’t stopped. Maybe sims 5 if it comes will be a perfect combo of all three games, taking the best from each. Wishful thinking for some I know but I’m hopeful.
I actually prefer having bigger worlds that we can change, over being able to travel to other worlds. But that's just me.
And me. Besides, “being able to without mods”, exactly, you can with a mod in Sims 3 as well. Travel between worlds.
It goes beyond graphics. Build mode and CAS, for instance, are far better than TS3. And no multitasking in TS3 is a big step back.
You can’t take a step back when you came first. At most you could say multitasking in Sims 4 is a move forward. You could, if they’d done it properly.
I was talking about TS3 retrospectively. Meaning, when you play TS3 now, not being able to multitask like you can in TS4 is a big deal. Your mileage may vary.
Honestly I don't miss it when playing TS2 or TS3. As a matter of fact it makes me happy that sims actually do what I tell them lol
And this. I’d be fine with multitasking if it really was that: doing two things at the same time and indeed, sims just obeying what you tell them to do. But multitasking is just performing seperate actions in turns, often without you wanting them to, autonomously, which causes them to not do what you wanted them to do. Like one sim sitting at the table, eating, her son sitting at the table making his homework and then, without me saying so and definitely not wanting so, she starts to talk to him while eating (wow girl, you’re a genius, you can eat and talk and don’t you insist on showing me) and he stops doing his homework because he has to talk to her.
At least you know what you will have to pay upfront with Sims 4 and not 3 unless you exercise control over the Store items. I don't regret what I've paid as I've built up the game from day one and played it almost every day. It's only roughly £100 per year for a hobby. I wonder what Lego packs cost or Fortnite addicts might pay out to get their loot packs per year or those who party and dine out? (Lego Dimensions... "The grand total comes to $334.85. And that's without tax." (IGN)
I might have bought a full game for £40 or over and only played it a week. I've done that with a few games in my long playing time. Sims4 still the prettiest and enjoyable for me!
Don’t really understand what you mean. It never was a secret what Sims 3 cost me? WA for instance cost me €40 and I’ve been enjoying that pack for almost 10 years now. So, that’s €4 per year. I bought JA for €20 and enjoyed it 3 hours. You can do the math what pack cost me more, relatively. So that is all personal and has nothing to do with what game is more expensive.
Yep pretty much what it has going for it the most. I think it will become outdated even with graphics fairly soon just because games these days have better tech and graphics. I mean I'm even going to get the chance to try out cloud based gaming. They always raise price with each iteration and Sims 4 is the most expensive Sims game yet with the packs with packs totaling $600 so far and I wouldn't be shocked if it reached $1,000 to get the complete pack DLC experience.
Actually the Sims 3 is the most expensive. Back when the game was still supported it would cost $780 total for the Base Game, all EP's and SP's and if you throw in the Sims 3 Store well over $3000.
Actually that’s not true.
If you buy the sims 3 right now
Sims 3 expansions 29.99 x 11 = 329.89
Stuff packs 14.99 x 9= 134.91
= £464.80
Not to mention sims 4 has an additional stuff pack and game pack on the way and three more years worth of content. Sims 4 is more expensive. That is a fact.
Excluding store content as that’s not essential and you actually get free sims points with every expansion registered. I should know as I have 8GB of free store content thanks to that and watching ads.
And that is today’s prices. During the original sims 3 run I didn’t pay those prices. I paid £10 for a stuff pack and £24 for an expansion.
Today's prices yes but as I said back when the game was still being supported EP's where $10 higher and the SP's $15 higher at least where I live. And I own everthing that was ever in the Store including all the Special Promotions and other stuff.
Not all regions where the same. Some had to pay more. So in my area it was in fact $780.
I’ll repeat: with Sims 3 (indeed a very expensive game) you have the full experience with just the EP’s. Nobody ‘needs’ the SP’s and on the forums I was active on back in the day when it was still under development, hardly any of the kids who played Sims 3 bought those SP’s. They didn’t even pay attention to it on that forum (which annoyed me because they did interest me, I wanted it all but that’s a different matter). What’s more, most of those kids didn’t even buy every EP. Not because they didn’t play the game, they did, they just didn’t have the money. Yet they played and enjoyed the game.
For Sims 4 I see a completely different pattern. People who like the game are clearly constantly hungry for more stuff, because what they have isn’t enough. They constantly need more, new, shiny stuff. And they buy it all, also because most GP’s are better than most EP’s for the game and they contain more than just stuff.
Sorry, but EA became smarter where it comes to marketing. You really think they left Sims 3’s sales strategy because they were concerned about your wallet?
Sims 3, basegame €59 + all EP’s = € 499. Sure you could buy a lot more if you wanted to, but you didn’t have to. Like you don’t have to buy everything a store sells, you can choose.
Sims 4, all in, by now (following what @MidnightAura says) = €545 and they are not done yet. And fans don’t want them to be done, they even get angry when you suggest it’s time to round up because there’s still too much missing. I love and loved Sims 3 but I never had that feeling when they announced Sims 4 and that was even before we got IP and ITF.
Sims 4 is a very expensive game. And that is comparing different versions in the same franchise. The games my son plays are like €60/€70 and he gets the full experience for that price.
This where we'll have to agree to disagree and my experience as a modder, programmer and being able to read game code comes in handy.
First the Store:
Riverview was originally supposed to have been shipped with the Base Game. In an unpatched freshly installed BG the references to Riverview in the games core files clearly shows me this it's as if they yanked it out just so they could put it up on the Store and say "See we're giving you something for free". Also there is a lot and I do mean a lot of Store Items that is heavily referenced in the games core files those things where originally part of the game but where yanked out at the last minute; the Cow Plant is another good example of this it's so heavily referenced it's undeniable; about half the game was yanked out and placed on the Store and that doesn't even count the Store Worlds.
Barnacle Bay has heavy references within the WA game files so many it looks as if it was originally a part it. Hidden Springs also has heavy references within the Ambitions game files in fact all but 2 Store Worlds (Lunar Lakes and Roaring Heights) all have heavy references in one EP or another.
As for the SP's nearly half of them unlock things in the game you will never see unless you own them even though the code is already part of the BG and has been for some time (months and even a year before they where released) and in some cases the code has always been there as the dates show going by the developer notes left behind in the game files.
Don't get me wrong I'm a huge Sims 3 fan but from what I've seen in the game core files that it is the most expensive and if you want the full game experience you need more then just the EP's.
And yes the Sims 4 is expensive and their not done with it yet and yes they did get smarter with their marketing as the Sims 3 Store didn't give them what they wanted. They had hoped for a gold mine and didn't get it as most people didn't take the bait and instead angered them.
How is Riverview making Sims 3 expensive when, indeed, we got it for free? And as for the Store: as I understand it the items for the Store were made in a different studio so no, they weren’t meant to be in the game, they were an extra. And my game experience doesn’t change if I buy and download some hairstyle or sofa or plant. And as for the premium stuff, most of it contained really poor gameplay (and I actually got most of that for free because I watched videos). And can you give me an example of an SP you need to unlock something (gameplay) in what EP? That’s completely new to me.
Sims fans most definitely took the bait. I’d be surprised if the last EP isn’t a big hit, a bestseller. Yet many fans are clearly very disappointed by what it has to offer. They bought it because it looks amazing. The OP of this topic just has that completely right.
To me, no. It's the most enjoyable game that provides more options I feel, despite Sims 3's creative tools, and the gameplay has so much more depth and variation.
I think when it all comes down to it, we see the past with rose colored glasses. The Sims 3 was awesome for the time. But the fact is, for many many players, it ran like a big pile of rock... There were tons of bugs with it too. The Sims 4 is a completely different game with the same theme. Each version of The Sims has been completely different from the last only sharing the theme of 'life simulator'. I'm not saying that the Sims 3 was a bad game. I loved it then and still do today. But it wasn't perfect and it wasn't necessarily the best one for everyone.
Sims 3
Pros: was an adventure made, in my opinion, for exploring. The Color wheel was awesome, the vast quantity of worlds and content amazing...cars and transportation of all kinds and a whole lot of flavor in all the little easter eggs and sim story progression there.
Cons: Because of the color wheel, creating your own recolors or custom content was a lot more difficult to do. If that was your thing, the learning curve was steeper.
Sims 4
Pros: Sims 4 is another thing entirely. It has awesome drag and drop mechanics for building, cool push and pull mechanics in CAS, multi tasking, and a vibrant, crisp world to live in. The life states and stages are more involved in that there are tasks to complete, and in the case of the life states, skills to be maxed. Multi tasking ...it can't be, in my opinion overstated. Its great. My sim can actually eat, play, work, etc... and actually carry on a conversation with their families at the same time. There just isn't enough time in the day to work then chat then eat, then chat...etc... Creating recolors and custom content is a lot easier. All you need is a paint program and some imagination.
Cons: No cars, No color wheel, Less content, no easter eggs to find (I miss the little bits of humor and information you could find once upon a time)
TlDr: Both games are great for their own reasons and I think Sims 4 has a lot more to offer than just pretty graphics. I'll continue to play both for a long time to come.
Loving yourself is the most simple and complicated thing you can do for you.
I view Sims 4 as a pretty backdrop with subpar gameplay mechanics. That is all it has proven to be, at least to me. I challenge the developers to prove me wrong. Even the Story of Seasons series has more replay value than Sims 4.
How is Riverview making Sims 3 expensive when, indeed, we got it for free? And as for the Store: as I understand it the items for the Store were made in a different studio so no, they weren’t meant to be in the game, they were an extra. And my game experience doesn’t change if I buy and download some hairstyle or sofa or plant. And as for the premium stuff, most of it contained really poor gameplay (and I actually got most of that for free because I watched videos). And can you give me an example of an SP you need to unlock something (gameplay) in what EP? That’s completely new to me.
Sims fans most definitely took the bait. I’d be surprised if the last EP isn’t a big hit, a bestseller. Yet many fans are clearly very disappointed by what it has to offer. They bought it because it looks amazing. The OP of this topic just has that completely right.
I never said Riverview made the game more expensive. But I'm going to bow out of this as I was only giving my perspective as programmer from what I had seen in the games files. Those references are there because those things where once in the game but pulled out and not cleaning them up was sloppy and I was referring to the premium items as common items like hairstyles, sofas and decorative plants don't have any special scripting and use the base game scripts. And I said some SP's unlock things in the Base Game not in an EP but in the Movie Stuff the All-In-One Outhouse has a base game script to make it work with just the Base Game and it's virtually identical to the All-In-One Bathrooms (from both IP and ITF). I had cloned it and had it work without the Movie Stuff installed which shouldn't be possible if the SP was required. I also tried the same thing with the All-In-Ones from IP and ITF those would not work without those EP's as the script was a little different as it would look for the EP that it comes from. Same thing with the Scoot Mobile and the Jamboree from Fast Lane they will work without the SP they won't have any sound but they will be functional.
I'm just a little bit crazy LOL
Okay actually I'm totally and completely nuts LOL
For me, No. I already told the reasons in many of my post(and I dont hace much time to post rn) So, no it has more than graphics. I wouldn't be stuck in this game for long if graphics is the only thing this game have.
I feel Sims 4 has a lot of potential, but currently, it does feel like style over substance. The things, in my opinion, it does better than other sims games are:
BB
Although it is missing some features from previous games (would love stair variations!), building is a lot easier in S4, and less stressful. Not sure about 2 and 1 but in sims 3, I had to go to edit town to save. The game had a bad habit of crashing halfway through building, so although there were cool things like curved stairs, more often than not, I would end up losing house progress because of this. The ability to search is also great in S4, as well as the ability to move/copy rooms.
CAS
While genetics such as hair colour and eye colour are a step back from 3, clothing categories, age (excl. toddlers and kids), and gender aren't restricted in S4, which gives way more options. I hated creating elders in S3 because they barely had any nice clothes, even with the added on expansions. If I wanted to do a traditional elderly witch, I could have all her clothing match the supernatural theme, except for outwear, where they put 1 supernatural skirt in the category, but no tops. So her outfit would look really weird, and not match the 1800's vibe I was going for.
Where S4 really falls down is gameplay. For a while, I played S3 with only Late Night, Supernatural and High End Loft Stuff installed, and I did not get bored. There felt like so much to do, and sim townies never failed to do the unexpected. In Sims 4 though, non-player sims, even with full autonomy, are boring to watch. For example, if you visit a library in S4, sims will read books and do normal library tasks (expected) with little interaction, whereas in S3, depending on what traits your sims has, some will like libraries more than others (couch potatoes hate it) and do different tasks such as fighting, flirting, working together etc.
Traits in general also don't work as desired, because default traits (such as sad when someone is dying) tend to override a sim's personality. (I've seen this example given before, but) when someone dies around an evil sim, they'll get sad, instead of happy, even though they're evil and are supposed to take enjoyment from other's suffering.
Multitasking, while nice on paper, seems broken, since whenever sims are multitasking, they take 3 times as long to do any task (eg. eating, drinking) that isn't talking. It also feels like there are fewer gameplay objects and skills (eg. in IL, fitness is the skill for swimming) and my sim can get through them pretty quickly.
To make S4 more substantial, it needs better sims, as they are arguably the most important part of the game (being the title's namesake and all). While building and cas are great, they don't add much to the life simulator part of the game, which is how I got into the sims in the first place. At the moment, while S4 looks great, it often leaves me bored, and longing for more gameplay and unexpected events.
Sims 4 has the nicest graphics and superior live mode game play, but sims 2 animations are the best. I really wish they'd start updating and adding more animations to sims 4. I won't compare build mode Because I don't really spend much time in there.
Is sims 4 just pretty graphics? Sims 3 apparently is supposed to be the one not praised, but yet it is! Sims 4 is pretty, but gameplay and bugs are just not allowing for it to surpass expectations.
What do you think down below, along with another question of wether they should raise prices to give us exactly what we want?
As I played each iteration I enjoyed the graphics. Some of the gameplay could be better in sims 4 but I can think of some of the packs in sims 2 and 3 were lacking in gameplay as well. There were a ton of bugs in sims 3 that did not get addressed that needed mods to fix it.
Anyway I tried going back playing past iteractions but they seem lacking to me now although I enjoyed the games. Just my opinion.
Me on:
Twitch jovi_jov
Twitter BarbieSimmy
Origin SimsBarbie
I feel Sims 4 has a lot of potential, but currently, it does feel like style over substance. The things, in my opinion, it does better than other sims games are:
BB
Although it is missing some features from previous games (would love stair variations!), building is a lot easier in S4, and less stressful. Not sure about 2 and 1 but in sims 3, I had to go to edit town to save. The game had a bad habit of crashing halfway through building, so although there were cool things like curved stairs, more often than not, I would end up losing house progress because of this. The ability to search is also great in S4, as well as the ability to move/copy rooms.
CAS
While genetics such as hair colour and eye colour are a step back from 3, clothing categories, age (excl. toddlers and kids), and gender aren't restricted in S4, which gives way more options. I hated creating elders in S3 because they barely had any nice clothes, even with the added on expansions. If I wanted to do a traditional elderly witch, I could have all her clothing match the supernatural theme, except for outwear, where they put 1 supernatural skirt in the category, but no tops. So her outfit would look really weird, and not match the 1800's vibe I was going for.
Where S4 really falls down is gameplay. For a while, I played S3 with only Late Night, Supernatural and High End Loft Stuff installed, and I did not get bored. There felt like so much to do, and sim townies never failed to do the unexpected. In Sims 4 though, non-player sims, even with full autonomy, are boring to watch. For example, if you visit a library in S4, sims will read books and do normal library tasks (expected) with little interaction, whereas in S3, depending on what traits your sims has, some will like libraries more than others (couch potatoes hate it) and do different tasks such as fighting, flirting, working together etc.
Traits in general also don't work as desired, because default traits (such as sad when someone is dying) tend to override a sim's personality. (I've seen this example given before, but) when someone dies around an evil sim, they'll get sad, instead of happy, even though they're evil and are supposed to take enjoyment from other's suffering.
Multitasking, while nice on paper, seems broken, since whenever sims are multitasking, they take 3 times as long to do any task (eg. eating, drinking) that isn't talking. It also feels like there are fewer gameplay objects and skills (eg. in IL, fitness is the skill for swimming) and my sim can get through them pretty quickly.
To make S4 more substantial, it needs better sims, as they are arguably the most important part of the game (being the title's namesake and all). While building and cas are great, they don't add much to the life simulator part of the game, which is how I got into the sims in the first place. At the moment, while S4 looks great, it often leaves me bored, and longing for more gameplay and unexpected events.
^ I agree with all of this. I love building and using CAS (I hated it in TS3, sooo laggy), but once I get into playing in live mode I get bored quickly. I think the game as a whole still has a lot to offer, and has come a long way from what it was like on release, but still needs work.
Sims 4 has the nicest graphics and superior live mode game play, but sims 2 animations are the best. I really wish they'd start updating and adding more animations to sims 4. I won't compare build mode Because I don't really spend much time in there.
I have no idea how one could judge Sims 4’s live mode gameplay as superior to Sims 2’s. I know, it’s your opinion and I appreciate that, obviously, but ... how, why. If all Sims 4 needs for you is a couple of more animations you’re a happy camper, that’s for sure.
Comments
y'all gotta prep yourselves for the possibility of $50 expansions when sims 5 rolls around. sims 4 is quite cheap compared to its predecessors. you can't look at sims 2 and sims 3's prices without understanding when they came out.
both sims 2 and sims 3's expansions cost $40usd at the time of their release. same price as sims 4 right? not exactly. inflation has risen over the last few years, making sims 2's expansions costing $47usd in today's dollars and sims 3 $44usd in todays dollars (these are figures based on the last expansion released, its more around the 50 dollar mark for sims 2 for the earlier expansions).
oh it just a few dollar difference...ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh...it can make a huge difference when a wide amount of copies are being sold.
let's give a good rounded number of 1 million products sold at that price before retailers put it on sale: that's 7 million dollars lost in comparison to what we got in sims 2. and its 4 million dollars lost in comparison to sims 3 per 1 million products sold. give or take.
and people keep wondering why we keep loosing certain things in expansions. that's.........kinda why. cause they're not making the money that they used to on expansions. its the same price, but loosing money. sims 4 is honestly trekking along just fine and making EA enough money to not 🐸🐸🐸🐸 off their investors, that the $40 cost is still working, most people buy it online these days reducing the amount of physical copies they have to make, and direct access through origin has also helped with cutting out the middle man of physical retailers (they're still around though, you can find physical copies still, just its not as much as it used to be).
they've also been bumping up certain locations in cost to make their money back cause they know it won't kick up much of a fuss than raising the prices in america (biggest sign that $50 expansions are around the corner).
in a few years, let's say 2022 when sims 5 comes out (might be sooner, might be later), they're gonna have to release their first expansion...sims 2, sims 3, sims 4 they all had $40 expansions. sims 1 had $30 expansions, converted to today's dollars it cost around $42 usd (again, last expansion figure). even freakin' sims 1 cost more than sims 4 when comparing the prices it was released at. that was....nearing 20 years ago, and over 20 years ago when sims 5 comes around. i'd prep for $50 expansions if i were you, just come to terms with it now might make it easier to face when it may come.
Yes, and Store stuff came out gradually and, of course one had to have the "Gold" pack and it was all in Simoleons so one didn't know the cost mounting up. Those Simoleons didn't go very far when you just want all the building stuff too. It's the mother of all Loot boxes for addicts.
I spent loads on Sims 3 and when trying it out again when Windows 10 came out I was not recognised as the owner of them. Was it the DRM? I don't play it anymore.
I love the graphics on Sims 4 and prefer them to earlier game ones. I collect screenshots and use them all the time as Windows slideshow backgrounds, changing them every day.
For Sims 4 I see a completely different pattern. People who like the game are clearly constantly hungry for more stuff, because what they have isn’t enough. They constantly need more, new, shiny stuff. And they buy it all, also because most GP’s are better than most EP’s for the game and they contain more than just stuff.
Sorry, but EA became smarter where it comes to marketing. You really think they left Sims 3’s sales strategy because they were concerned about your wallet?
Sims 3, basegame €59 + all EP’s = € 499. Sure you could buy a lot more if you wanted to, but you didn’t have to. Like you don’t have to buy everything a store sells, you can choose.
Sims 4, all in, by now (following what @MidnightAura says) = €545 and they are not done yet. And fans don’t want them to be done, they even get angry when you suggest it’s time to round up because there’s still too much missing. I love and loved Sims 3 but I never had that feeling when they announced Sims 4 and that was even before we got IP and ITF.
Sims 4 is a very expensive game. And that is comparing different versions in the same franchise. The games my son plays are like €60/€70 and he gets the full experience for that price.
I actually prefer having bigger worlds that we can change, over being able to travel to other worlds. But that's just me.
At least you know what you will have to pay upfront with Sims 4 and not 3 unless you exercise control over the Store items. I don't regret what I've paid as I've built up the game from day one and played it almost every day. It's only roughly £100 per year for a hobby. I wonder what Lego packs cost or Fortnite addicts might pay out to get their loot packs per year or those who party and dine out? (Lego Dimensions... "The grand total comes to $334.85. And that's without tax." (IGN)
I might have bought a full game for £40 or over and only played it a week. I've done that with a few games in my long playing time. Sims4 still the prettiest and enjoyable for me!
I still don't care for the low detail meshes and textures. They did do a good job making it look pretty however. Playing from a further distance helps a lot with that, but I usually play down in the game and all up in my sims faces with a lot of camera action, instead of from above and never moving around the camera much.
It has a lot of nice new features, but I would expect that in the next iteration of the game, but not while dropping a lop of great features from past games.
I was talking about TS3 retrospectively. Meaning, when you play TS3 now, not being able to multitask like you can in TS4 is a big deal. Your mileage may vary.
Honestly I don't miss it when playing TS2 or TS3. As a matter of fact it makes me happy that sims actually do what I tell them lol
But with sims 3 you do know, the prices are clearly stated and the game is complete. I posted earlier the total cost for the sims 3. Store is irrelevant as you don’t need the store stuff and indeed you can get parts for free via registration of expansions.
Sims 4 we know is already over £500. We know it will be a further £30 if you want the dlc coming this year but we have no idea how it will work next year or even next quarter.
Same! That and no dropped queue interactions and no simulation lag!
This where we'll have to agree to disagree and my experience as a modder, programmer and being able to read game code comes in handy.
First the Store:
Riverview was originally supposed to have been shipped with the Base Game. In an unpatched freshly installed BG the references to Riverview in the games core files clearly shows me this it's as if they yanked it out just so they could put it up on the Store and say "See we're giving you something for free". Also there is a lot and I do mean a lot of Store Items that is heavily referenced in the games core files those things where originally part of the game but where yanked out at the last minute; the Cow Plant is another good example of this it's so heavily referenced it's undeniable; about half the game was yanked out and placed on the Store and that doesn't even count the Store Worlds.
Barnacle Bay has heavy references within the WA game files so many it looks as if it was originally a part it. Hidden Springs also has heavy references within the Ambitions game files in fact all but 2 Store Worlds (Lunar Lakes and Roaring Heights) all have heavy references in one EP or another.
As for the SP's nearly half of them unlock things in the game you will never see unless you own them even though the code is already part of the BG and has been for some time (months and even a year before they where released) and in some cases the code has always been there as the dates show going by the developer notes left behind in the game files.
Don't get me wrong I'm a huge Sims 3 fan but from what I've seen in the game core files that it is the most expensive and if you want the full game experience you need more then just the EP's.
And yes the Sims 4 is expensive and their not done with it yet and yes they did get smarter with their marketing as the Sims 3 Store didn't give them what they wanted. They had hoped for a gold mine and didn't get it as most people didn't take the bait and instead angered them.
Okay actually I'm totally and completely nuts LOL
It's such a long time since I saw a thread comparing sims game versions.
*yawns*
I mean they are games of the same franchise. It's when people get personal that the problems start
Sims fans most definitely took the bait. I’d be surprised if the last EP isn’t a big hit, a bestseller. Yet many fans are clearly very disappointed by what it has to offer. They bought it because it looks amazing. The OP of this topic just has that completely right.
Sims 3
Pros: was an adventure made, in my opinion, for exploring. The Color wheel was awesome, the vast quantity of worlds and content amazing...cars and transportation of all kinds and a whole lot of flavor in all the little easter eggs and sim story progression there.
Cons: Because of the color wheel, creating your own recolors or custom content was a lot more difficult to do. If that was your thing, the learning curve was steeper.
Sims 4
Pros: Sims 4 is another thing entirely. It has awesome drag and drop mechanics for building, cool push and pull mechanics in CAS, multi tasking, and a vibrant, crisp world to live in. The life states and stages are more involved in that there are tasks to complete, and in the case of the life states, skills to be maxed. Multi tasking ...it can't be, in my opinion overstated. Its great. My sim can actually eat, play, work, etc... and actually carry on a conversation with their families at the same time. There just isn't enough time in the day to work then chat then eat, then chat...etc... Creating recolors and custom content is a lot easier. All you need is a paint program and some imagination.
Cons: No cars, No color wheel, Less content, no easter eggs to find (I miss the little bits of humor and information you could find once upon a time)
TlDr: Both games are great for their own reasons and I think Sims 4 has a lot more to offer than just pretty graphics. I'll continue to play both for a long time to come.
Okay actually I'm totally and completely nuts LOL
http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/924539/features-that-needs-depth-and-ways-to-improve
BB
Although it is missing some features from previous games (would love stair variations!), building is a lot easier in S4, and less stressful. Not sure about 2 and 1 but in sims 3, I had to go to edit town to save. The game had a bad habit of crashing halfway through building, so although there were cool things like curved stairs, more often than not, I would end up losing house progress because of this. The ability to search is also great in S4, as well as the ability to move/copy rooms.
CAS
While genetics such as hair colour and eye colour are a step back from 3, clothing categories, age (excl. toddlers and kids), and gender aren't restricted in S4, which gives way more options. I hated creating elders in S3 because they barely had any nice clothes, even with the added on expansions. If I wanted to do a traditional elderly witch, I could have all her clothing match the supernatural theme, except for outwear, where they put 1 supernatural skirt in the category, but no tops. So her outfit would look really weird, and not match the 1800's vibe I was going for.
Where S4 really falls down is gameplay. For a while, I played S3 with only Late Night, Supernatural and High End Loft Stuff installed, and I did not get bored. There felt like so much to do, and sim townies never failed to do the unexpected. In Sims 4 though, non-player sims, even with full autonomy, are boring to watch. For example, if you visit a library in S4, sims will read books and do normal library tasks (expected) with little interaction, whereas in S3, depending on what traits your sims has, some will like libraries more than others (couch potatoes hate it) and do different tasks such as fighting, flirting, working together etc.
Traits in general also don't work as desired, because default traits (such as sad when someone is dying) tend to override a sim's personality. (I've seen this example given before, but) when someone dies around an evil sim, they'll get sad, instead of happy, even though they're evil and are supposed to take enjoyment from other's suffering.
Multitasking, while nice on paper, seems broken, since whenever sims are multitasking, they take 3 times as long to do any task (eg. eating, drinking) that isn't talking. It also feels like there are fewer gameplay objects and skills (eg. in IL, fitness is the skill for swimming) and my sim can get through them pretty quickly.
To make S4 more substantial, it needs better sims, as they are arguably the most important part of the game (being the title's namesake and all). While building and cas are great, they don't add much to the life simulator part of the game, which is how I got into the sims in the first place. At the moment, while S4 looks great, it often leaves me bored, and longing for more gameplay and unexpected events.
As I played each iteration I enjoyed the graphics. Some of the gameplay could be better in sims 4 but I can think of some of the packs in sims 2 and 3 were lacking in gameplay as well. There were a ton of bugs in sims 3 that did not get addressed that needed mods to fix it.
Anyway I tried going back playing past iteractions but they seem lacking to me now although I enjoyed the games. Just my opinion.
Twitch jovi_jov
Twitter BarbieSimmy
Origin SimsBarbie
^ I agree with all of this. I love building and using CAS (I hated it in TS3, sooo laggy), but once I get into playing in live mode I get bored quickly. I think the game as a whole still has a lot to offer, and has come a long way from what it was like on release, but still needs work.