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EA really doesn't want sim to kill sim
Nitroglycol
Posts: 121 Member
So we all know of ways of killing sims (locking them in a room and deleting the door, etc). But actually doing it by the actions of another sim without going into buy/build mode is not easy. I decided to try using the door lock feature added in UL, and it worked... sort of.
You see, I created a household of two of my CAS sims (Paul Bateman and Karla Horton, both with the Evil trait) and built them a house with some rooms in the basement. Then I got the university mascot to go into one of those rooms, and locked the door... but the mascot eventually teleported out.
Second attempt: I added another sim to my household (another CAS sim, named Phoebe Lay). Again, I put Phoebe in one of the basement rooms and locked the door; eventually she starved to death (not before saying her own name a few times LOL). But Paul and Karla spent the next couple of days spontaneously bursting into tears (even though they had positive moodlets from "seeing sim suffer" that was outweighed by the "witnessing death" moodlet).
I tried using the roommate feature instead (thinking that maybe there's less of an emotional bond between roommates than between full-on household members). And they starved, but again Paul and Karla are spontaneously crying over mere acquaintances, despite being evil. It's almost as if they feel guilty - or like EA wants to make you feel guilty for doing that.
You see, I created a household of two of my CAS sims (Paul Bateman and Karla Horton, both with the Evil trait) and built them a house with some rooms in the basement. Then I got the university mascot to go into one of those rooms, and locked the door... but the mascot eventually teleported out.
Second attempt: I added another sim to my household (another CAS sim, named Phoebe Lay). Again, I put Phoebe in one of the basement rooms and locked the door; eventually she starved to death (not before saying her own name a few times LOL). But Paul and Karla spent the next couple of days spontaneously bursting into tears (even though they had positive moodlets from "seeing sim suffer" that was outweighed by the "witnessing death" moodlet).
I tried using the roommate feature instead (thinking that maybe there's less of an emotional bond between roommates than between full-on household members). And they starved, but again Paul and Karla are spontaneously crying over mere acquaintances, despite being evil. It's almost as if they feel guilty - or like EA wants to make you feel guilty for doing that.
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Me: "Hasn't stopped me before." - there's mods for that.
Always "River McIrish" ...and maybe some Bebe Hart. ~innocent expression~
Personally, I don't think EA cares one way or another about how Simmers treat or mistreat their Sims. If you take a really close look at the content of this game you will see EA/Maxis is not innocent when it comes to 'not harming Sims'. If you have Late Night installed, well you have the makings for actual autonomous Sim to Sim murder. It's not even hidden.
Always "River McIrish" ...and maybe some Bebe Hart. ~innocent expression~
Whoa... autonomous sim on sim murder? As in, they'll kill each other without direction from the player?? What am I missing here?
Although I'm not big on killing sims - honest! Heck, I'm usually in a hurry to get some Life Fruit growing so I can keep them from dying of old age. I'm very curious about this, though. So, just Late Night, with no mods?
Like most things which would raise the ratings in this game, EA/Maxis cannot come straight out and say this feature (if you want to call it that) is in their (Teen) Life Simulation game. However, they left a trail of breadcrumbs to be followed.
The ability to kill came somewhere inside of the Late Night expansion pack coding. However, the ability to develop the desire and want to kill can be found in the pure base game in the form of jealousy. The jealousy algorithm has been a hard thing for EA/Maxis to control, so they began building moodlets (small programming) to try to slow it down or deter it.
Somewhere, between the base game and the release of World Adventure they saw Sim jealousy was a problem. In update v1.5/1.6 in the section of gameplay changes, they included "Autonomous interactions based on Sim's jealousy have been balanced." This may have been making reference to the two new moodlets included in the expansion 'No Jealousy' and 'Stone Heart'. These are odd new lifetime rewards to add to a travel expansion pack, don't you think? But, the new coding wasn't enough to alter Sim 'thinking'.
When Late Night came out with it's Lifetime Reward 'Master of Seduction' and the ability for Sims to kill, things became worst. I do believe the Lifetime Reward 'Clean Slate' and 'Above Reproach' which came with the Generations expansion were added to help with the Late Night Sim reaction. However, in my opinion, the 'Clean Slate' approach is too extreme as it wipes out the entire relationship (but only in the journal and moodlet programming), it has no bearing on a Sim's actual memory. This is where the issue of murder lies.
To be honest, I don't think EA/Maxis intended for the average Sim to have access to this ability (line of thinking). They did however intend for Sims to 'do away' with each other. Proof of this is present in the game (newspaper), in the surrounding and back story of Bridgeport and old producer walk-through notes concerning vampire coding and intent.
There is a method to autonomous Sim murder. They won't randomly kill, nor will they kill for object gain (money, house, car or job position). They won't even attempt it without a plausible motive. The Sim they want to remove will have some importance in/to their life, they will also be considered an obstacle to a path, goal or ability to move forward. An obstacle which cannot be removed by any other means. The desire and drive to commit this crime will only occur as the last logical conclusion (solution).
You won't see a Sim commit the crime, I don't think they have the animations for it. You will only see the result, the notification of the dead Sim. And, (possibly) the lack of the body or ghost if they didn't kill them with a recognizable death such as fire (the EA/Maxis approved method).
To date, I have only had two cases of autonomous murder in my game (both by townies) with a third case possibly developing from a Sim I created. The first murder I thought was an accidental death as fire and newspaper notification were used. The second murder was not accidental, it was premeditated and neither I nor Nrass can locate the deceased Sim's body (urn). I am trying to prevent the third from taking place while at the same time learn as much as I can. From what I can tell, traits have no bearings on a Sim's desire to remove another from their life.
A while ago, I was going to create a thread about this very subject. I changed my mind because there doesn't seem to be a lot of Simmers here who seem interested in AI developments (which this is).
To answer your question, no you do not need to have mods installed, you don't even need to have Late Night installed. The coding is inside of the Late Night patch for the game, any patch level past Late Night, you have it. You only need Late Night installed if you want to see more cases of it or, control the killings with a mod.
"I'm sorry, Dave, I can't do that..."
*oh dear*
Always "River McIrish" ...and maybe some Bebe Hart. ~innocent expression~
-"Shut up, Peg. I'm watching football".
Hm, interesting thread. I never knew a sim could kill another sim, but I have seen the wish to see a sim's ghost.
Yeah, I've seen that one. In fact both the evil sims in my experiment have gotten that wish. The autonomous killing that mw1525 refers to is news to me, though.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuW44b3uCMtCSaq4gwC8EZg
The wish to see a Sim's ghost is associated with a trait or a LTW (I think). I don't play with evil Sims, gold diggers or heart breakers so I wouldn't know for certain. However, I can tell you 'see a ghost' has nothing to do with the autonomous act I spoke of. There are no definitive signs such as an 'I want to harm so-and-so' wish, to let you know a Sim may be 'considering' committing this act. However, there are always little odd things which stand out. It is very easy to miss if you are only focused on your Sims.
There are a lot of things which I thought were not possible inside of this game. And, there have been a lot of times the Sim have been proven me wrong.
(For the record my game is usually very joyful to the degree that I cannot even age the old sims).
That being said,
> Unaided Autonomous Murder Capabilities. Yes, the Sims can do it.
>
> Like most things which would raise the ratings in this game, EA/Maxis cannot come straight out and say this feature (if you want to call it that) is in their (Teen) Life Simulation game. However, they left a trail of breadcrumbs to be followed.
>
> The ability to kill came somewhere inside of the Late Night expansion pack coding. However, the ability to develop the desire and want to kill can be found in the pure base game in the form of jealousy. The jealousy algorithm has been a hard thing for EA/Maxis to control, so they began building moodlets (small programming) to try to slow it down or deter it.
>
> Somewhere, between the base game and the release of World Adventure they saw Sim jealousy was a problem. In update v1.5/1.6 in the section of gameplay changes, they included "Autonomous interactions based on Sim's jealousy have been balanced." This may have been making reference to the two new moodlets included in the expansion 'No Jealousy' and 'Stone Heart'. These are odd new lifetime rewards to add to a travel expansion pack, don't you think? But, the new coding wasn't enough to alter Sim 'thinking'.
>
> When Late Night came out with it's Lifetime Reward 'Master of Seduction' and the ability for Sims to kill, things became worst. I do believe the Lifetime Reward 'Clean Slate' and 'Above Reproach' which came with the Generations expansion were added to help with the Late Night Sim reaction. However, in my opinion, the 'Clean Slate' approach is too extreme as it wipes out the entire relationship (but only in the journal and moodlet programming), it has no bearing on a Sim's actual memory. This is where the issue of murder lies.
>
> To be honest, I don't think EA/Maxis intended for the average Sim to have access to this ability (line of thinking). They did however intend for Sims to 'do away' with each other. Proof of this is present in the game (newspaper), in the surrounding and back story of Bridgeport and old producer walk-through notes concerning vampire coding and intent.
>
> There is a method to autonomous Sim murder. They won't randomly kill, nor will they kill for object gain (money, house, car or job position). They won't even attempt it without a plausible motive. The Sim they want to remove will have some importance in/to their life, they will also be considered an obstacle to a path, goal or ability to move forward. An obstacle which cannot be removed by any other means. The desire and drive to commit this crime will only occur as the last logical conclusion (solution).
>
> You won't see a Sim commit the crime, I don't think they have the animations for it. You will only see the result, the notification of the dead Sim. And, (possibly) the lack of the body or ghost if they didn't kill them with a recognizable death such as fire (the EA/Maxis approved method).
>
> To date, I have only had two cases of autonomous murder in my game (both by townies) with a third case possibly developing from a Sim I created. The first murder I thought was an accidental death as fire and newspaper notification were used. The second murder was not accidental, it was premeditated and neither I nor Nrass can locate the deceased Sim's body (urn). I am trying to prevent the third from taking place while at the same time learn as much as I can. From what I can tell, traits have no bearings on a Sim's desire to remove another from their life.
>
> A while ago, I was going to create a thread about this very subject. I changed my mind because there doesn't seem to be a lot of Simmers here who seem interested in AI developments (which this is).
>
> To answer your question, no you do not need to have mods installed, you don't even need to have Late Night installed. The coding is inside of the Late Night patch for the game, any patch level past Late Night, you have it. You only need Late Night installed if you want to see more cases of it or, control the killings with a mod.
wow , id love to see more research on this
I have, however, found what looks like a solution to the original issue - it seems that WA (which I just installed recently) adds a lifetime reward called "Stone Hearted". So once Paul and Karla have enough lifetime happiness points it looks like they'll be able to get this and not feel anything when sims start dying around them.
In my game, the decision has always been made autonomously by the Sim. The 1st incident involved a Sim who didn't want to be tied to another (so, he got rid of her). The 2nd incident involved a Sim who was in a pre-programmed committed relationship (Lina Volboken) but she desired my married Sim (Ricky). Lina literally 'got rid' of Eli and turned her attentions to Ricky. The 3rd (potential) incident is currently unfolding.
It really makes me wonder now...Have I just missed these murders? If it goes along with the jealousy trait...well, we'll just say my sims are...adventurous.
It's true, you need to target the ground around vampire(or another sim for that matter) to sucessfully setting another sim on fire, I did that when another sim trying to flirt with my sims's spouse.
@mw1525 ''A while ago, I was going to create a thread about this very subject. I changed my mind because there doesn't seem to be a lot of Simmers here who seem interested in AI developments (which this is).''
I am Very interested in All that you post about sims AI developments! The murder part is a bit scary to me, I don't want my sims to feel that way, I do tend to watch them closely and have them on free will at all times with as little direction as possible. because I just love to watch what they do, wish and think.
My big mistake: I did have an 'almost incident' which was my fault. I did direct a sim, Don, to kiss another sim, to see what would happen. Things started spiraling downwards, Don chose another bed to sleep in that night, instead of his marriage bed. (Don's wife's stats showed no cheating no betrayal) His sister in law asked Don's wife to break up with him (again me)
He awoke betrayed and super mad at the sister in law, but since she had already gone back to sleep he couldn't confront her.
He had a Long talk with the magic mirror the next morning (the mirror doing almost all the talking) and
The mirror Gave him a poisoned apple! now I know that wouldn't kill his sister in law, probably. But isn't that weird?
here's the pic of the mirror giving Don the apple.
Anyway I felt horrible, really sick. and deleted the save. That is not the direction I want to go. That is not what I want for them to live or for me to see. live and learn.
You are the only person who has really posted about the sims actual AI. I always wonder if you are the only person who knows about it? I find it so fascinating! I hope you post more!
when you posted A Mother's Love, I was left crying at the beauty and sadness. The AI is amazing!
.
That poisoned apple thing sounds weird too. I suppose you could always just have sold the apple in the consignment store instead of using it for its "intended" purpose...
Not that I've done much with that particular save since verifying that it worked, mind you.
Yes, the AI is very intelligent in this game and (for me) is a joy to watch. The Sims move in very subtle, almost miss-able ways, so it very easy to not 'see' or notice things as they unfold. Also, most Simmers are mainly focused on their Sims and do not pay much attention to the townies or other Sims which wander throughout the world. But, it is the townies, NPC and other Sims who are running full 'thinking' autonomy all the time.
Sim 'thinking' has nothing to do with the push and pulls of the game's commands. It has everything to do with that individual Sim.
Concerning a Sim's desire to 'remove' another, while anything is possible, from what I have seen it is highly unlikely player choices influence or even contribute to their decision, even if jealousy is exploited.
When it comes to AI watching, I am certain there are others who enjoy it as much as I do, maybe I just post about it a bit more