@rednenemon Thank you!!!! I swear I feel like the only one nursing a grudge against the rest of these Rosebrooks on behalf of Joce. Sheesh! Caveat, caveat, they're great, complicated characters, love them all, blah, blah, blah. You get it though. You get it...
That's a good amount of the reason I didn't like Luc and Hazel in the end. I thought the two of them were being so selfish, almost like they didn't want Jossy to be happy.
It wouldn't have been so bad if they'd taken a few moments to think that hey, Mark and Jossy are happy with each other, who cares about the age gap (and all that other stuff). But nope: the two of them and almost everyone else (except Clara. Thank you, Clara) had to whine and squawk about how 'siiiiick' or 'wrooooong' that relationship was.
Yes, I agree that the Rosebrooks are great characters, but...Well, as you can tell, I'm still a tad bitter over all that happening.
Oddly enough, I actually like Mari. Yes, she was in a pretty dark place there for quite some time, but she was eventually able to pull her life back together, right?
Thank you @suzanna13 and @orangeplumbob for sharing your answers! Orangeplumbb something tells me you'd get along very well with @cecerose0208 She never forgave Luc either... You guys have Joce-level grudge skills (I say that with love of course )
I was thinking this too! I opened the thread hours ago, but I've been busy at work and only just got a chance to respond. After I typed mine out then read the rest of the comments I hadn't read from earlier, I was cracking up. Those Gen 4 twins inspire some strong and lasting reactions amongst your readers!
*throws several rotten tomatoes at @cecerose0208 on behalf of Zayne*
You guys are so dang harsh I know these are just characters, but dang! So much hatred for my poor babies today. *cuddles Mari and Luzel*
I did love your Humberto answer though!
Save some of those tomatoes for the real Mari haters. You know I love her deeply! Even at her messiest, I mostly just felt sympathy and empathy and a bit of pity for her.
That's a good amount of the reason I didn't like Luc and Hazel in the end. I thought the two of them were being so selfish, almost like they didn't want Jossy to be happy.
It wouldn't have been so bad if they'd taken a few moments to think that hey, Mark and Jossy are happy with each other, who cares about the age gap (and all that other stuff). But nope: the two of them and almost everyone else (except Clara. Thank you, Clara) had to whine and squawk about how 'siiiiick' or 'wrooooong' that relationship was.
Yes, I agree that the Rosebrooks are great characters, but...Well, as you can tell, I'm still a tad bitter over all that happening.
Oddly enough, I actually like Mari. Yes, she was in a pretty dark place there for quite some time, but she was eventually able to pull her life back together, right?
Yup, you get it. I think about it and I'm still sad for all the time Joce and Mark lost. When the Rosebrook story is finished and Citized is writing some other awesome tale, I'm gonna be chiming in on comments like, "this reminds me of that time Mark's selfish daughter took away his chance at a one true love for like 15 years..."
Woohoo: Alex for sure! He's sooo handsome. And Stefan too!
Marry: Definitely Alex. He's hot, sweet and romantic. Or Jonas because he's funny and kind.
Kill: Luc and Hazel. They acted so rude about Joce and Mark's relationship, and pushed Mark to break up with her. I'll never forget the comment Luc made after Joce and Mark announced their relationship to her family.
BFF: Clara seems really chill. I think she'd be fun to hang out with! Probably Joce too, because we both like reading.
Mark is attractive and I think he'd make a good husband but I feel weird saying I'd woohoo or marry him because when he first appeared in the story he was already so much older than me. Maybe the younger version of him!
Woohoo: I can't decide between Alex, Stefan or Florian. I'm gonna say Alex.
Marry: Alex or Jonas. I love them, they're super sweet and they both like stuff I do (like writing, geek stuff, etc.)
Kill: Mmm... I'll say Luc. He was really disrespectful and forceful about his opinions. I think in that area and his selfishness surpassed Mari's, at least for me.
BFF: Clara, Tony and Jonas. Geeks, outcasts, and oddballs. Those are my people.
Luc KILLED MY SHIP! He never really admitted that it was his fault for their break-up. He always would say it was Mark's decision, but in truth the way he told Mark off at that dinner. Him and Hazel both were the reason Mark and Joce broke up, and I hated it. AND I hated how Luc didn't befriend Mark until AFTER the break-up. It shows me how shallow and uncool he was to his TWIN SISTER. That's just cold. He didn't even side with her then. Not everyone gets along with their in-laws, but for Luc to be like friends with the guy that broke his sister's heart to the point she left Windenburg, yeah, NOT COOL. Tis why I wasn't all that sad when he died. I felt for Zayne, but seriously, I smiled.
This...I don't think I was ever this vocal about his agrecious offense to his twin, but @orangeplumbob said it so emphatically. **applause**
I will say I didn't smile at his death just because I'd forgiven Luc by that time. Something I'd never afford his grandmother.
@orangeplumbob Well, Luc tried to contact Jocelyne and apologize many times, but she'd never listen. I think by the end, he DID acknowledge his part in the break up. Not saying he wasn't shallow and selfish. That's part of who he was. He made a huge mistake and was a huge plum for a nice chunk of his life. He tried to make amends, but I understand notthinking it's enough.
But smiling when he died? Wow haha I don't think what he did earned dying at thirty in a horrific and painful way... remind me to never make you angry
And I will be sure to not tell Zayne that you said that about his dead parents he will never know... hahaha
I'm quite evil. HAHAHAHA. Actually not really. He didn't deserve to die, but I was a little happy and did smile, because I knew then that Mark and Joce could finally be together, that's why I smiled. I knew that with Luc and Hazel around there was no hope. Joce would have never have forgiven Luc, and would have never had her HEA with Mark. So, with Luc and Hazel out of the picture and with her and Mark raising Zayne, they got the chance to get that HEA. So yeah, I am still happy that they died. I got my ship.
@IntrovertSara thanks for your answers! Your BFF answers were my fave haha so true!
@pammiechick I'll still never understand the continued Mari hatred haha I don't think she ever did anything worse than what Luc did, and she has had the most growth and change of any character in my story.
@orangeplumbob I don't think we will ever see completely eye to eye on this, but I'm glad you were so excited to see your ship return. I do love me some Marklyne
Thanks to everybody who participated in our discussion yesterday! I loved reading all the answers and seeing some of the discussion that came from it! And if you didn't get a chance to answer and would like to, that's fine! There's no time table Feel free to stop by any time and share your thoughts!
I'll do another discussion question next Friday (a more serious one this time... but hopefully people still participate! ). Thanks guys! You are the best little community of readers
I'm glad Zayne isn't giving up and I hope he continues to hang in there. I wonder what will change for them because something has got to. My prediction--Zayne will tire of not seeing her and he'll relocate.
Ok...as for my rallying against Mari, I don't see how you can put Luc in with her. Mari ABANDONED her kids when they were babies so she could go plum men every night. She would scream and cuss anyone who wanted to help her. She was by far the most selfish character I'd ever read and by the time she met Jonas, she'd sunk so low, imo, there was no redemption in my eyes.
Luc thought he was right in his beliefs. I never hated him. He loved his wife, was kind to his parents, and his id*iotic band mates (not including Florian here...love him). He didn't act selfishly. In fact, his reasons to be against Joce's relationship with Mark was mostly out of protection for his wife and her feelings. No contest.
Now...it's just kind of fun for me to hate on Mari. I will admit she got better with Jonas. He was a saint, though. How she dealt with the boys as they grew older made me want to scream as well. She just has a selfish streak. Most mothers act unselfishly because of this miraculous love they have for their children, but Mari didn't show this kind of love until Tobi was about to throw his life away. By that time, just looking at her made me cringe. Lol!
I understand your motherly love of Mari blinds you to her faults and yes, she had a lot of character growth-- it's just that some characters rub you the wrong way and you'll never like their personality no matter what they do. I have a character in my story that is a harsh character and people love to hate her even though she's starting to have growth. I won't blame them for not ever forgiving her. It's her personality that people might not ever love. **shrug**
@pammiechick I wouldn't say I'm blind to Mari's faults. She had many (many, many, many ), especially in her younger years. But I believe that people can grow and change and learn from their mistakes and become good people. And to me, Mari is a good and loving person, it just took a long time for her to reach that place (and I'd argue that she had and showed genuine love for her children long before that talk with Tobi... But I'm just the author, what do I know? )
Of course, you are definitely allowed to have your own opinions on her (and you know you have others on your side too ), I just won't ever 100% "get" it. As she gets older, I'll admit to dreading some of the comments I'll probably get when she eventually dies I'll have to post some kind of "Please have a heart" warning when that chapter comes
Oh, and I know there are some readers who would strongly disagree with your assessment of Luc, based on the comments they'd made on his chapters. He and Hazel are my most-hated characters by far (which also makes me sad )
Citizen plot twist: Hope dies in a fiery plane crash.
Lol! This is too funny. Here she is as she writes that scene:
@CitizenErased14 Oh...I won't be unkind at her funeral. I'll let all those who love her grieve in peace. I'm not THAT mean. I'll always remember her as a character I loved to hate. That's a good thing...right? Means you made me feel something for her--whether that's positive or negative, that's your job, so bravo!
@CitizenErased14 I was always wondering, did you research some personality disorders while writing Marie? She was deeply disturbed, self-destructive and mostly incapable of dealing with her emotions in her younger days.( And when Josh showed up) I guess I've always viewed her as essentially good, but very lost person. Not that it excuses her actions, but I thinks it was more complex than blowing off her children to go and get laid. Alex and Jade, lovely as they were, missed the early signs of her issues when she was a child and then didn't exactly shine as parents when plum hit the fan either. She always felt inferior and the person she was trying to hurt was herself. And it's not like she didn't suffer the consequences- her life fell apart. She caused a lot of pain to others, because she believed she had nothing else to offer and it's not like she was having a blast doing it. I've often felt sorry for her and I was glad when she got better. It was a great message that you can turn things around, you can change for the better and that family can forgive you your mistakes.
Of course, it's just the way I see it. I'm biased like we all and I respect other opinions. It's not like she was easy to love ( Jonas might disagree here ).
@CitizenErased14 I was always wondering, did you research some personality disorders while writing Marie? She was deeply disturbed, self-destructive and mostly incapable of dealing with her emotions in her younger days.( And when Josh showed up) I guess I've always viewed her as essentially good, but very lost person. Not that it excuses her actions, but I thinks it was more complex than blowing off her children to go and get laid. Alex and Jade, lovely as they were, missed the early signs of her issues when she was a child and then didn't exactly shine as parents when plum hit the fan either. She always felt inferior and the person she was trying to hurt was herself. And it's not like she didn't suffer the consequences- her life fell apart. She caused a lot of pain to others, because she believed she had nothing else to offer and it's not like she was having a blast doing it. I've often felt sorry for her and I was glad when she got better. It was a great message that you can turn things around, you can change for the better and that family can forgive you your mistakes.
Of course, it's just the way I see it. I'm biased like we all and I respect other opinions. It's not like she was easy to love ( Jonas might disagree here ).
I like your assessment of Mari, @chocis ! And I can definitely answer your question re: personality disorders.
I did do a bit of research when developing her character, actually! I never technically gave Mari any kind of specific mental disorder. I intentionally never mentioned a specific name because I wanted it to be open.
However, most of her symptoms were inspired by a disorder called Borderline Personality Disorder. So, if I were to give Mari a diagnosis, it would probably be BPD.
I had a very close friend growing up (we have since grown apart... And yes, largely because of how stressful it is to be friends with someone so unstable ) who has Borderline Personality Disorder. If you're unfamiliar with what this disorder is (I was too, until I met the friend and ended up learning about her), here are some of the symptoms of this disorder ( copied from this website so you don't have to go and scroll through the whole thing haha)
Having an unstable or dysfunctional self-image or a distorted sense of self (how one feels about one’s self)
Feelings of isolation, boredom and emptiness
Difficulty feeling empathy for others
A history of unstable relationships that can change drastically from intense love and idealization to intense hate
A persistent fear of abandonment and rejection, including extreme emotional reactions to real and even perceived abandonment
Intense, highly changeable moods that can last for several days or for just a few hours
Strong feelings of anxiety, worry and depression
Impulsive, risky, self-destructive and dangerous behaviors, including reckless driving, drug or alcohol abuse and having unsafe sex
Hostility
Unstable career plans, goals and aspirations
Sound familiar? (Not every single symptom, but most of them! Especially the ones I made bold)
BPD is a really tough thing because in most cases, medication doesn't do anything to help it. People with BPD usually rely on therapy as a primary treatment (much like Mari did) and its symptoms are known to decline with age (again, like Mari). Of course, Mari was missing some of the symptoms and was not a 100% match for BPD... But it was a huge inspiration for how I wrote her character.
I also have a friend who has a Masters Degree in Psychology. I consulted with her a lot in discussing Mari's feelings/reactions/etc to help make sure she was being portrayed somewhat realistically for someone a emotionally unstable as she is.
Thanks for your question, and sorry for the giant response
Thank you for your detailed answer! For what it's worth- I had BPD in mind when I asked. I like it how it's not textbook case and that there's room for interpretation. So great job. It really takes a skillfull writer to convey something like that.
Disclaimer: I don't have a Masters Degree, but I took some psychology classes in Uni.
And I definitely agree that people with BPD can be difficult to be around, especially to themselves. That's why I understand Marie getting a lot of hate, she deserves some of it. But it's also all the more reason why I'm so happy she got her HEA.
Also, wow for your dedication to the story once again.
Nooboos WitcHazard: Hello just stopping by to say the court of WitcHazards is still in favor of Hozay. So keep the ship floating for as long as you can.
(🐸🐸🐸🐸 gun)
Nooboos WitcHazard Dark Voice: OUR BELOVED CITIZEN hehe
Nooboos WitcHazard: Hello just stopping by to say the court of WitcHazards is still in favor of Hozay. So keep the ship floating for as long as you can.
(🐸🐸🐸🐸 gun)
Nooboos WitcHazard Dark Voice: OUR BELOVED CITIZEN hehe
Okay somehow I am distracted from your comment @WitcHazard by the fact that the forums does not censor "🐸🐸🐸🐸" (also... *ducks from scary gun* Don't hurt me!)
Nooboos WitcHazard: Hello just stopping by to say the court of WitcHazards is still in favor of Hozay. So keep the ship floating for as long as you can.
(🐸🐸🐸🐸 gun)
Nooboos WitcHazard Dark Voice: OUR BELOVED CITIZEN hehe
I think at this rate, Jackson might actually win in the nooboo race which surprises me...heh...
Comments
You guys are so dang harsh
I did love your Humberto answer though!
That's a good amount of the reason I didn't like Luc and Hazel in the end. I thought the two of them were being so selfish, almost like they didn't want Jossy to be happy.
It wouldn't have been so bad if they'd taken a few moments to think that hey, Mark and Jossy are happy with each other, who cares about the age gap (and all that other stuff). But nope: the two of them and almost everyone else (except Clara. Thank you, Clara) had to whine and squawk about how 'siiiiick' or 'wrooooong' that relationship was.
Yes, I agree that the Rosebrooks are great characters, but...Well, as you can tell, I'm still a tad bitter over all that happening.
@CitizenErased14
Oddly enough, I actually like Mari. Yes, she was in a pretty dark place there for quite some time, but she was eventually able to pull her life back together, right?
Part One(Complete 9/24/16) /Part Two(on hold)/Short Stories(on hold)/Twinbrook 1996(on hold)/Ten Crystal Hearts (on hold)
I own the TS3 Store as of 12/11/16 (sort of. It's complicated)
I was thinking this too! I opened the thread hours ago, but I've been busy at work and only just got a chance to respond. After I typed mine out then read the rest of the comments I hadn't read from earlier, I was cracking up. Those Gen 4 twins inspire some strong and lasting reactions amongst your readers!
Save some of those tomatoes for the real Mari haters. You know I love her deeply! Even at her messiest, I mostly just felt sympathy and empathy and a bit of pity for her.
Yup, you get it. I think about it and I'm still sad for all the time Joce and Mark lost. When the Rosebrook story is finished and Citized is writing some other awesome tale, I'm gonna be chiming in on comments like, "this reminds me of that time Mark's selfish daughter took away his chance at a one true love for like 15 years..."
Marry: Definitely Alex. He's hot, sweet and romantic.
Kill: Luc and Hazel. They acted so rude about Joce and Mark's relationship, and pushed Mark to break up with her. I'll never forget the comment Luc made after Joce and Mark announced their relationship to her family.
BFF: Clara seems really chill. I think she'd be fun to hang out with! Probably Joce too, because we both like reading.
Mark is attractive and I think he'd make a good husband but I feel weird saying I'd woohoo or marry him because when he first appeared in the story he was already so much older than me. Maybe the younger version of him!
Marry: Alex or Jonas. I love them, they're super sweet and they both like stuff I do (like writing, geek stuff, etc.)
Kill: Mmm... I'll say Luc. He was really disrespectful and forceful about his opinions. I think in that area and his selfishness surpassed Mari's, at least for me.
BFF: Clara, Tony and Jonas. Geeks, outcasts, and oddballs. Those are my people.
This...I don't think I was ever this vocal about his agrecious offense to his twin, but @orangeplumbob said it so emphatically. **applause**
I will say I didn't smile at his death just because I'd forgiven Luc by that time. Something I'd never afford his grandmother.
I'm quite evil. HAHAHAHA. Actually not really. He didn't deserve to die, but I was a little happy and did smile, because I knew then that Mark and Joce could finally be together, that's why I smiled. I knew that with Luc and Hazel around there was no hope. Joce would have never have forgiven Luc, and would have never had her HEA with Mark. So, with Luc and Hazel out of the picture and with her and Mark raising Zayne, they got the chance to get that HEA. So yeah, I am still happy that they died. I got my ship.
Second Chances | Different Rain
@pammiechick I'll still never understand the continued Mari hatred haha
@orangeplumbob I don't think we will ever see completely eye to eye on this, but I'm glad you were so excited to see your ship return.
I'll do another discussion question next Friday (a more serious one this time... but hopefully people still participate!
Here is today's chapter
5.39: Worth the Wait
Ok...as for my rallying against Mari, I don't see how you can put Luc in with her. Mari ABANDONED her kids when they were babies so she could go plum men every night. She would scream and cuss anyone who wanted to help her. She was by far the most selfish character I'd ever read and by the time she met Jonas, she'd sunk so low, imo, there was no redemption in my eyes.
Luc thought he was right in his beliefs. I never hated him. He loved his wife, was kind to his parents, and his id*iotic band mates (not including Florian here...love him). He didn't act selfishly. In fact, his reasons to be against Joce's relationship with Mark was mostly out of protection for his wife and her feelings. No contest.
Now...it's just kind of fun for me to hate on Mari. I will admit she got better with Jonas. He was a saint, though. How she dealt with the boys as they grew older made me want to scream as well. She just has a selfish streak. Most mothers act unselfishly because of this miraculous love they have for their children, but Mari didn't show this kind of love until Tobi was about to throw his life away. By that time, just looking at her made me cringe. Lol!
I understand your motherly love of Mari blinds you to her faults and yes, she had a lot of character growth-- it's just that some characters rub you the wrong way and you'll never like their personality no matter what they do. I have a character in my story that is a harsh character and people love to hate her even though she's starting to have growth. I won't blame them for not ever forgiving her. It's her personality that people might not ever love. **shrug**
You guys are cracking me up @Ruby10990 and @kayt45 !
@pammiechick I wouldn't say I'm blind to Mari's faults. She had many (many, many, many
Of course, you are definitely allowed to have your own opinions on her (and you know you have others on your side too
Oh, and I know there are some readers who would strongly disagree with your assessment of Luc, based on the comments they'd made on his chapters.
Lol! This is too funny. Here she is as she writes that scene:
@CitizenErased14 Oh...I won't be unkind at her funeral. I'll let all those who love her grieve in peace. I'm not THAT mean.
Where did you get that picture of me?!
Of course, it's just the way I see it. I'm biased like we all and I respect other opinions. It's not like she was easy to love ( Jonas might disagree here
I like your assessment of Mari, @chocis !
I did do a bit of research when developing her character, actually!
However, most of her symptoms were inspired by a disorder called Borderline Personality Disorder. So, if I were to give Mari a diagnosis, it would probably be BPD.
I had a very close friend growing up (we have since grown apart... And yes, largely because of how stressful it is to be friends with someone so unstable
Sound familiar?
BPD is a really tough thing because in most cases, medication doesn't do anything to help it. People with BPD usually rely on therapy as a primary treatment (much like Mari did) and its symptoms are known to decline with age (again, like Mari). Of course, Mari was missing some of the symptoms and was not a 100% match for BPD... But it was a huge inspiration for how I wrote her character.
I also have a friend who has a Masters Degree in Psychology. I consulted with her a lot in discussing Mari's feelings/reactions/etc to help make sure she was being portrayed somewhat realistically for someone a emotionally unstable as she is.
Thanks for your question, and sorry for the giant response
Disclaimer: I don't have a Masters Degree, but I took some psychology classes in Uni.
And I definitely agree that people with BPD can be difficult to be around, especially to themselves. That's why I understand Marie getting a lot of hate, she deserves some of it. But it's also all the more reason why I'm so happy she got her HEA.
Also, wow for your dedication to the story once again.
(🐸🐸🐸🐸 gun)
Nooboos WitcHazard Dark Voice: OUR BELOVED CITIZEN hehe
Okay somehow I am distracted from your comment @WitcHazard by the fact that the forums does not censor "🐸🐸🐸🐸"
I think at this rate, Jackson might actually win in the nooboo race which surprises me...heh...