I'm glad to see so many positive comments on my post, it's really heartwarming and means a lot to me. For those asking what the "point" is, or saying that there are only men and women in the world, please google the terms "intersex" and "non-binary". Even if you don't "believe" (*rolls eyes*) in transgender identities, if you ACTUALLY picked up a biology book you'd see that almost no-one is 100% XX or 100% XY, and biological sex is never as simple as male or female.
Other than that, please continue with the positivity! I'd really love the addition of able to breastfeed or not! And I'd also like it if the 'sex' of sims was removed entirely, and you just choose body variables, pronouns, and which toilet they use. I wish modders had the resources available to do this.
@EloquentMyDear Yes, you lovely person, yes!! Thank you so much for saying all this, for speaking up and actually taking the time to answer appropriately to people who, in my point of view, are so old-fashioned, discriminating and oppressive in their opinions that it would be way too much for me and probably many other people to start educating them. It all just frustrates me so much and I bet some of the posts here on the forum can be very triggering to read for many people. Just wanted to express my support to your comments by saying thank you, I don't think being able to click ''awesome'' to your comments a thousand times would be enough.
They could just have the option to create unisex toilets, that's very common where I live on the continent.
I agree with the @Syllyra comment - some days I like to be feminine and other days I'll wear old clothes I nicked from my bf.
As for the pronouns I think it'd be a bit difficult to settle on one in English as there isn't really a gender-neutral pronoun that's accepted. They could I suppose set the biological sex and then ask the player whether they would prefer their sim to be called him/her, or in announcements just to use their name and avoid pronouns completely with that character.
Even if people don't necessarily agree/understand trans and non-binary genders it's still logical to allow both biological sexes to wear the same clothes because it happens all the time. Certain subcultures like Gothic can also cross-gender with their clothing even if they conform to the standard male/female gender roles.
It's not perfect but it's interesting, I don't know why people are complaining if you don't like it don't use the setting? It's not like anyone is forced into using it. I personally use the traditional gender roles but at least now I have the option of trying something new and I'm kinda interested in trying it and seeing how I feel about it. The other thing to consider is that this game is played by a lot of younger people. I like that the developers have kept the option subtle, but at the same time it allows people to explore. It's important for our young people to understand that everyone is different and expresses themselves differently, even if you don't personally understand exactly why they do what they're doing.
I'm glad to see so many positive comments on my post, it's really heartwarming and means a lot to me. For those asking what the "point" is, or saying that there are only men and women in the world, please google the terms "intersex" and "non-binary". Even if you don't "believe" (*rolls eyes*) in transgender identities, if you ACTUALLY picked up a biology book you'd see that almost no-one is 100% XX or 100% XY, and biological sex is never as simple as male or female.
Other than that, please continue with the positivity! I'd really love the addition of able to breastfeed or not! And I'd also like it if the 'sex' of sims was removed entirely, and you just choose body variables, pronouns, and which toilet they use. I wish modders had the resources available to do this.
@EloquentMyDear Yes, you lovely person, yes!! Thank you so much for saying all this, for speaking up and actually taking the time to answer appropriately to people who, in my point of view, are so old-fashioned, discriminating and oppressive in their opinions that it would be way too much for me and probably many other people to start educating them. It all just frustrates me so much and I bet some of the posts here on the forum can be very triggering to read for many people. Just wanted to express my support to your comments by saying thank you, I don't think being able to click ''awesome'' to your comments a thousand times would be enough.
Thank you for being so sweet! Please don't let the conservatives get to you. I know how frustrating and upsetting it can be, but one day you will be able to just roll your eyes or even laugh at the ignorant opinions that some people express. They're not worth your time or your tears. Though I'd like to do my best to educate people, there are some people who simply refuse to be educated, and would prefer to tell me who I am or how I'm feeling or how mentally ill I am.
As many people have pointed out - what's the big deal? Why are people so offended by this? EA made it very clear that skirt-wearing pregnant men won't be wandering around your towns unless you make them that way. Oh, yeah, that's right - people didn't actually bother to read the articles or patch notes and as soon as they saw a man in a dress they got their Angry Trousers on without knowing what they're talking about.
Pronouns are a great idea! 'They' is probably the easiest gender-neutral pronoun to use, since it's the best-known out of all of them. Or we could have multiple options. Either way, it's an exciting prospect, especially since this recent update proves the devs are interested in making the game more inclusive for everyone.
I want to renew this thread, with the basic point that to improve the inclusiveness of the game's genders, myself and many others request:
A pronouns menu including"they/them" or addition to the "male/female" menu of "non-binary"
The option to select no style preference or both masculine and feminine clothing/hair (I know it is possible to remove the filter, but it'd be nice to have a function for it)
Possibly the addition of a "both" and "neither" option for the fertility setting
A breastfeeding menu to assign whether sims can breastfeed or not
FWIW, I've seen some people on the internet who use forms of "they" and remove the "th." So, like, "they = ey," "them = em," "their = eir." It takes some getting used to, but it's a rather simple and elegant solution, I find. No idea how widespread the practice is though.
I thought read a news article recently the gender neutral term was ze?
It's one of many, many options people are individually choosing. I see the plural "they" etc. much more commonly now, though.
@Triplis That's one I haven't seen. Seems unnecessarily complicated to me, but I'm cisgender.
I do think that "they" would be the simplest to put in the game, but I can see how translation becomes an issue. Every language would need its own solution to a nongendered pronoun, and some don't have a natural one like English does ("they" having been a singular nongendered pronoun in the UK for centuries already).
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Biologically, there are two gender extremes. If you are ANYTHING that isn't on the extreme end of the scale, you are still somewhere on that scale. So there isn't an "other" gender, because every gender is somewhere on the scale of male to female.
Biologically, there are two gender extremes. If you are ANYTHING that isn't on the extreme end of the scale, you are still somewhere on that scale. So there isn't an "other" gender, because every gender is somewhere on the scale of male to female.
You've got your terms mixed up. There are two SEXES. Gender and Sex are NOT the same thing.
What does this have to do with the topic? If you want to post things like this, make your own thread or make a blog on Wordpress or something.
This has to do with pronoun updates. Also, talk to any gender specialist and they will debunk your claim.
Why do care so much about how 1% of the population lives their lives? Do you really have nothing better to do than tell people that the way they are is wrong?
Call me a SJW, or whatever buzzword you can think of, but I just don't understand why you felt the need to post this.
Biologically, there are two gender extremes. If you are ANYTHING that isn't on the extreme end of the scale, you are still somewhere on that scale. So there isn't an "other" gender, because every gender is somewhere on the scale of male to female.
You've got your terms mixed up. There are two SEXES. Gender and Sex are NOT the same thing.
What does this have to do with the topic? If you want to post things like this, make your own thread or make a blog on Wordpress or something.
This has to do with pronoun updates. Also, talk to any gender specialist and they will debunk your claim.
Why do care so much about how 1% of the population lives their lives? Do you really have nothing better to do than tell people that the way they are is wrong?
Call me a SJW, or whatever buzzword you can think of, but I just don't understand why you felt the need to post this.
Actually that's not true , its actually still being debated . There some people who believe gender is social structure and some do not . Infact I watch videos where people who are transgender . Who agree there is only two genders . I don't care what person does once there 18.
Biologically, there are two gender extremes. If you are ANYTHING that isn't on the extreme end of the scale, you are still somewhere on that scale. So there isn't an "other" gender, because every gender is somewhere on the scale of male to female.
You've got your terms mixed up. There are two SEXES. Gender and Sex are NOT the same thing.
What does this have to do with the topic? If you want to post things like this, make your own thread or make a blog on Wordpress or something.
This has to do with pronoun updates. Also, talk to any gender specialist and they will debunk your claim.
Why do care so much about how 1% of the population lives their lives? Do you really have nothing better to do than tell people that the way they are is wrong?
Call me a SJW, or whatever buzzword you can think of, but I just don't understand why you felt the need to post this.
Actually that's not true , its actually still being debated . There some people who believe gender is social structure and some do not . Infact I watch videos where people who are transgender . Who agree there is only two genders . I don't care what person does once there 18.
It's debatable for sure, but there is a general consensus among the science community concerning it.
I don't like telling people how to live their lives if no one is getting hurt.
Biologically, there are two gender extremes. If you are ANYTHING that isn't on the extreme end of the scale, you are still somewhere on that scale. So there isn't an "other" gender, because every gender is somewhere on the scale of male to female.
You've got your terms mixed up. There are two SEXES. Gender and Sex are NOT the same thing.
What does this have to do with the topic? If you want to post things like this, make your own thread or make a blog on Wordpress or something.
This has to do with pronoun updates. Also, talk to any gender specialist and they will debunk your claim.
Why do care so much about how 1% of the population lives their lives? Do you really have nothing better to do than tell people that the way they are is wrong?
Call me a SJW, or whatever buzzword you can think of, but I just don't understand why you felt the need to post this.
Actually that's not true , its actually still being debated . There some people who believe gender is social structure and some do not . Infact I watch videos where people who are transgender . Who agree there is only two genders . I don't care what person does once there 18.
It's debatable for sure, but there is a general consensus among the science community concerning it.
I don't like telling people how to live their lives if no one is getting hurt.
Like I but still said some people agree with it , and some don't .( That include scientist, and therapists) Yes, but swifty wasn't telling people how to live their lives . Just stating his opinion.We just need to respect other views , and opinions. No matter how much we disagree.
I wish this sort of thing was an optional download.
Some people enjoy gender roles and don't consider them to be backwards or old fashioned or wrong. Of course I have the option to simply not use this patch but every time I boot up TS4 more and more traditionally gendered items are making the cross over on the character select screen and I can see the lines being blurred.
I'm happy that more types of people are being included to enrich their game play and represent themselves but I can't help but feel left behind sometimes. The way people like me are being talked about in this thread upsets me like we are backwards or evil. We should be tolerant of everyone's way of life even if we disagree and we shouldn't be forcing our opinions onto anyone else.
I wish this sort of thing was an optional download.
Some people enjoy gender roles and don't consider them to be backwards or old fashioned or wrong. Of course I have the option to simply not use this patch but every time I boot up TS4 more and more traditionally gendered items are making the cross over on the character select screen and I can see the lines being blurred.
I'm happy that more types of people are being included to enrich their game play and represent themselves but I can't help but feel left behind sometimes. The way people like me are being talked about in this thread upsets me like we are backwards or evil. We should be tolerant of everyone's way of life even if we disagree and we shouldn't be forcing our opinions onto anyone else.
We are all just people. You aren't "one of them." I know it doesn't always come across that way, but inclusiveness is what motivates these kind of things.
I'm sorry you feel that the lines are being blurred in your game. In all honesty though, I'm not sure I understand why. Can you give an example?
Maybe I just don't even notice it, but the majority of premade sims, for instance, seem to be designed in a way that is in line with gender roles.
Of course, English does have a neutral gender pronoun - "it". I am not sure why it's always been considered rude to call people "it", it's just word. I mean I would be happy to be called "it" even though I was born as and identify as female. Is there really any reason why in 2016 we can't drop all this silly nonsense of having to point to someone's gender or lack of it in every sentence we utter about them?
I wish this sort of thing was an optional download.
Some people enjoy gender roles and don't consider them to be backwards or old fashioned or wrong. Of course I have the option to simply not use this patch but every time I boot up TS4 more and more traditionally gendered items are making the cross over on the character select screen and I can see the lines being blurred.
I'm happy that more types of people are being included to enrich their game play and represent themselves but I can't help but feel left behind sometimes. The way people like me are being talked about in this thread upsets me like we are backwards or evil. We should be tolerant of everyone's way of life even if we disagree and we shouldn't be forcing our opinions onto anyone else.
This is a personal issue for me, one of my friends is a transgender man and..I won't say what happened but an extremely horrible thing happened to him after he was faced with prejudice and bullying from others.
The reason people are saying things like "backwards" and "evil" in this thread is because the majority of the posts in this thread, and across the forum that were against the update were extremely hateful and rude, not all of them were, and I'm not saying yours was (it wasn't) but the one that was posted on the front page of this thread was. A lot of the anti-trans rhetoric I saw when the update came out was downright horrifying, and some even brought me to tears because my friend was still in the hospital. I don't respect people who use their opinions as an excuse to discrimate, harass, bully, and hurt a certain demographic of people who are just trying to live their lives.
I haven't seen you do such a thing, so I don't think you are backwards or evil.
Biologically, there are two gender extremes. If you are ANYTHING that isn't on the extreme end of the scale, you are still somewhere on that scale. So there isn't an "other" gender, because every gender is somewhere on the scale of male to female.
You've got your terms mixed up. There are two SEXES. Gender and Sex are NOT the same thing.
What does this have to do with the topic? If you want to post things like this, make your own thread or make a blog on Wordpress or something.
This has to do with pronoun updates. Also, talk to any gender specialist and they will debunk your claim.
Why do care so much about how 1% of the population lives their lives? Do you really have nothing better to do than tell people that the way they are is wrong?
Call me a SJW, or whatever buzzword you can think of, but I just don't understand why you felt the need to post this.
No no no. There are two different sexes AND genders. Gender is biologically related to sex, but isn't always corresponding. Everything is somewhere on the scale of Male <
> Female. If you put 2 cereals in a bowl, it isn't a new cereal.
I feel the need to defend myself against being called "backwards" and "oppressive" because people get abused for trying to explain the biology of it.
Biologically, there are two gender extremes. If you are ANYTHING that isn't on the extreme end of the scale, you are still somewhere on that scale. So there isn't an "other" gender, because every gender is somewhere on the scale of male to female.
You've got your terms mixed up. There are two SEXES. Gender and Sex are NOT the same thing.
What does this have to do with the topic? If you want to post things like this, make your own thread or make a blog on Wordpress or something.
This has to do with pronoun updates. Also, talk to any gender specialist and they will debunk your claim.
Why do care so much about how 1% of the population lives their lives? Do you really have nothing better to do than tell people that the way they are is wrong?
Call me a SJW, or whatever buzzword you can think of, but I just don't understand why you felt the need to post this.
No no no. There are two different sexes AND genders. Gender is biologically related to sex, but isn't always corresponding. Everything is somewhere on the scale of Male <
> Female. If you put 2 cereals in a bowl, it isn't a new cereal.
I feel the need to defend myself against being called "backwards" and "oppressive" because people get abused for trying to explain the biology of it.
I've never told anyone how to live their life.
But, if you combine sodium and chlorine, you get a new substance of NaCl2 (salt). You could argue that they are made of the same components, but a new substance is still produced when you only had two elements to start with.
Abused, or challenged? No one here has called you anything. I haven't seen any abusive language directed towards anyone against the update in this thread. The reason people are saying those words in other threads is because most of the comments that were against the update were not polite and respectful, they were outright nasty.
If you tell someone that their identity is invalid or wrong (not in the sense that it is immoral, but in the sense that it is not possible) which is what you did, then you are telling someone how to live their life. You can disagree with a harmless (emphasis on harmless) idea but still be respectful of those who practice it. For example, I am not a vegan, never will be, because I cannot live without ice cream. However, I don't tell vegans how to live their lives or tell them that they are wrong or that they should start eating meat because they are "missing out".
Gender is NOT biologically connected to sex. You said so yourself by saying that they don't correspond. It is possible for someone to be born male chromosomes but also have female reproductive organs. Gender is a mental state, and sex is biological. If someone is born with blonde hair, should they not be allowed to dye it brown? There is a YouTube video explaining why gender and sex are different and why there are more than two genders.
I'm not going to force you to agree with me, but I don't think this thread is the best place to have this conversation as it wasn't set up for debate, so feel free to PM me if you want to continue our conversation.
Edit: Dang, I've never seen that line before. I don't agree with your argument, but it does help it emphasize certain points.
Gender is NOT biologically connected to sex. You said so yourself by saying that they don't correspond. It is possible for someone to be born male chromosomes but also have female reproductive organs. Gender is a mental state, and sex is biological. If someone is born with blonde hair, should they not be allowed to dye it brown? There is a YouTube video explaining why gender and sex are different and why there are more than two genders.
And as I've said earlier in this thread, if you want to get actually biological, there is no such thing as a binary sex system.
FWIW, I've seen some people on the internet who use forms of "they" and remove the "th." So, like, "they = ey," "them = em," "their = eir." It takes some getting used to, but it's a rather simple and elegant solution, I find. No idea how widespread the practice is though.
I've never seen that before, but it seems fine. For most non-binary people, if they haven't specified otherwise, "they" is just fine.
Biologically, there are two gender extremes. If you are ANYTHING that isn't on the extreme end of the scale, you are still somewhere on that scale. So there isn't an "other" gender, because every gender is somewhere on the scale of male to female.
Male and female wouldn't be the two ends of the scale, because cisgender females have varying levels of testosterone and cisgender males have varying levels of estrogen. Additionally, men wouldn't be on the other end because of chromosomes - XY isn't genetically inverse to XX. Men have nipples because we all begin development as genderless. More facts for you: 1% of people biologically not male or female but 'intersex' - look it up, and the sex organs of a fetus develop between 6 and 12 weeks whereas brain development doesn't occur in earnest until nearly 20 weeks in - there's no connection in their developments.
Actually that's not true , its actually still being debated . There some people who believe gender is social structure and some do not . Infact I watch videos where people who are transgender . Who agree there is only two genders . I don't care what person does once there 18.
1) Being currently debated doesn't mean it's not true. Evolution was debated for literally hundreds of years - still ongoing.
2) Just because somebody is transgender doesn't mean they're suddenly an expert biologist/psychologist who gets to say what's real and what's not. There is also a lot of transphobia within the trans community, binary trans people directing hate towards non-binary trans people.
3) Why would they have to be 18? You know that physical transition (hormones, surgery) isn't the only way to transition, right?
Like I but still said some people agree with it , and some don't .( That include scientist, and therapists) Yes, but swifty wasn't telling people how to live their lives . Just stating his opinion.We just need to respect other views , and opinions. No matter how much we disagree.
Their opinion was coming to this thread to directly tell me, a trans person, that what I experience is not real or valid. My opinion is that we should all respect one-another and let people live their lives as they want, as long as they are not harming anyone else.
However, I cannot and will not respect those views, because they are harming others. Just look at the suicide/self-harm rates for trans people. Where do you think they're learning to hate themseles from?
Where we disagree with you is that we believe all should be free as long as they are not harming others, and you either don't know enough about it or believe in freedom of speech which harms others.
I wish this sort of thing was an optional download.
Some people enjoy gender roles and don't consider them to be backwards or old fashioned or wrong. Of course I have the option to simply not use this patch but every time I boot up TS4 more and more traditionally gendered items are making the cross over on the character select screen and I can see the lines being blurred.
I'm happy that more types of people are being included to enrich their game play and represent themselves but I can't help but feel left behind sometimes. The way people like me are being talked about in this thread upsets me like we are backwards or evil. We should be tolerant of everyone's way of life even if we disagree and we shouldn't be forcing our opinions onto anyone else.
Here's the thing - I never said that gender roles are wrong. I'm a liberal feminist - which is the primary belief in 3rd wave feminism. That means I believe that we should all get to choose how to live our lives, as long as no harm comes to anyone because of it. Liberal feminists, and liberals in general, do not want to banish gender roles. What we want to do is take away the stigma from rejecting those roles. We want to ensure that nobody is being forced either into or out of those roles. If you choose to be a housewife who wears dresses every day, good for you! If you get rejected for jobs because you refuse to wear a skirt, that's the problem.
Additionally, that's simply not true about the game. In CAS, as long as you keep the feminine/masculine tags in the clothing menu, women are offered 'women's clothes' and men are offered 'men's clothes'. Unless you're somehow offended by the 'women's trousers', which were already in the game and have nothing to do with the gender patch? Also, the NPCs spawned will always wear their gender-assigned clothing unless you change that.
If you feel left behind, I'm sorry but you really need to take a step back. I'll try and keep this simple and actually related to the game. Through the whole history of The Sims franchise, gender has been binary. Men don't get dresses or skirts, for example. For more than a year, The Sims 4 didn't give men skirts, and women had feminine frames. Now, this one, optional thing is added to the game, but you feel left out? Nothing has been taken from you. No-one forced you to put dresses on your men. They didn't even let NPC men spawn with dresses on! The fact is, one thing has been given to trans people. It wasn't taken from you, it was added for others. And you are 'left behind'?
Of course, English does have a neutral gender pronoun - "it". I am not sure why it's always been considered rude to call people "it", it's just word. I mean I would be happy to be called "it" even though I was born as and identify as female. Is there really any reason why in 2016 we can't drop all this silly nonsense of having to point to someone's gender or lack of it in every sentence we utter about them?
The overwhelming majority of trans people find "it" highly offensive because the word holds a very long history of trans people being compared to creatures, objects, abnormal people, inhuman things etc, rather than just human beings. Because you are a cisgender female, it is fairly obvious that you would have a better relationship with the word than a trans person - it hasn't necessarily been used against you for decades (arguable due to the treatment of women and other factors). To the trans community, "it" is generally paired with being asked what's in our pants and what we were born as etc. English does have a gender-neutral singular pronoun - they. "They" is more than sufficient for us. "It" makes us sound like a schoolbag or a dog.
I feel the need to defend myself against being called "backwards" and "oppressive" because people get abused for trying to explain the biology of it.
I've never told anyone how to live their life.
But we are trying to explain our side of the biology argument! - and your biology is no more right or wrong than ours, debatably. Abuse directed at you might be people calling you a bigot etc (which didn't actually happen here at all, so..?) but the abuse of trans people is being literally harassed in the street, beaten up, murdered, ignored by governments etc.
If someone is being called nasty names by two people in a forum because they came into a clearly trans space to talk about how trans people aren't real, it's a little different to experiencing verbal and physical abuse from friends and family members on a weekly basis, as well as strangers.
You did, effectively, tell me that I cannot live my life as a trans person because I must always be some combination of male and female, therefore I cannot request an 'other' gender in a game, cannot identify myself as an 'other' gender in my daily life, and cannot feel that my gender is neither male or female.
If you tell someone that their identity is invalid or wrong (not in the sense that it is immoral, but in the sense that it is not possible) which is what you did, then you are telling someone how to live their life. You can disagree with a harmless (emphasis on harmless) idea but still be respectful of those who practice it. For example, I am not a vegan, never will be, because I cannot live without ice cream. However, I don't tell vegans how to live their lives or tell them that they are wrong or that they should start eating meat because they are "missing out".
How many ways can I make people hate me in this thread? Ah, yes, I'm:
- non-binary
- pansexual
- a feminist
- a liberal
- a vegan
- mentally ill (depression, anxiety, OCD and anorexia, before anyone tries to get smart)
Anything to add? Lol
Of course, English does have a neutral gender pronoun - "it". I am not sure why it's always been considered rude to call people "it", it's just word. I mean I would be happy to be called "it" even though I was born as and identify as female. Is there really any reason why in 2016 we can't drop all this silly nonsense of having to point to someone's gender or lack of it in every sentence we utter about them?
The overwhelming majority of trans people find "it" highly offensive because the word holds a very long history of trans people being compared to creatures, objects, abnormal people, inhuman things etc, rather than just human beings. Because you are a cisgender female, it is fairly obvious that you would have a better relationship with the word than a trans person - it hasn't necessarily been used against you for decades (arguable due to the treatment of women and other factors). To the trans community, "it" is generally paired with being asked what's in our pants and what we were born as etc. English does have a gender-neutral singular pronoun - they. "They" is more than sufficient for us. "It" makes us sound like a schoolbag or a dog.
I feel the need to defend myself against being called "backwards" and "oppressive" because people get abused for trying to explain the biology of it.
I've never told anyone how to live their life.
But we are trying to explain our side of the biology argument! - and your biology is no more right or wrong than ours, debatably. Abuse directed at you might be people calling you a bigot etc (which didn't actually happen here at all, so..?) but the abuse of trans people is being literally harassed in the street, beaten up, murdered, ignored by governments etc.
If someone is being called nasty names by two people in a forum because they came into a clearly trans space to talk about how trans people aren't real, it's a little different to experiencing verbal and physical abuse from friends and family members on a weekly basis, as well as strangers.
You did, effectively, tell me that I cannot live my life as a trans person because I must always be some combination of male and female, therefore I cannot request an 'other' gender in a game, cannot identify myself as an 'other' gender in my daily life, and cannot feel that my gender is neither male or female.
If you tell someone that their identity is invalid or wrong (not in the sense that it is immoral, but in the sense that it is not possible) which is what you did, then you are telling someone how to live their life. You can disagree with a harmless (emphasis on harmless) idea but still be respectful of those who practice it. For example, I am not a vegan, never will be, because I cannot live without ice cream. However, I don't tell vegans how to live their lives or tell them that they are wrong or that they should start eating meat because they are "missing out".
How many ways can I make people hate me in this thread? Ah, yes, I'm:
- non-binary
- pansexual
- a feminist
- a liberal
- a vegan
- mentally ill (depression, anxiety, OCD and anorexia, before anyone tries to get smart)
Anything to add? Lol
Sorry if I'm reading this wrong, but I'm not hating on you, I am defending you. I have nothing against non-binary people, and I was trying to reason to the person who did have a problem.
As I said before, one of my good friends is transgender and I've seen the things he has had to endure from other people when it comes to prejudice, and it is horrifying. I fully respect and support the transgender and non-binary community. I also support your idea of a pronoun update in the game.
Let's try keep this about the game. I think most of us already took biology and people don't appreciate being talked down too.
I stand by my opinion that these sort of gender politics should have been optional downloads because whether or not you want to admit it, they are increasing the amount of clothing and hair style cross overs making premade townies more androgynous by the day. Someone like me who values gender roles and thinks they are extremely important feel like our opinions don't matter when this type of thing is a forced download.
So, in conclusion, I support the option, just don't make me download it.
Comments
@EloquentMyDear Yes, you lovely person, yes!! Thank you so much for saying all this, for speaking up and actually taking the time to answer appropriately to people who, in my point of view, are so old-fashioned, discriminating and oppressive in their opinions that it would be way too much for me and probably many other people to start educating them. It all just frustrates me so much and I bet some of the posts here on the forum can be very triggering to read for many people. Just wanted to express my support to your comments by saying thank you, I don't think being able to click ''awesome'' to your comments a thousand times would be enough.
I agree with the @Syllyra comment - some days I like to be feminine and other days I'll wear old clothes I nicked from my bf.
As for the pronouns I think it'd be a bit difficult to settle on one in English as there isn't really a gender-neutral pronoun that's accepted. They could I suppose set the biological sex and then ask the player whether they would prefer their sim to be called him/her, or in announcements just to use their name and avoid pronouns completely with that character.
Even if people don't necessarily agree/understand trans and non-binary genders it's still logical to allow both biological sexes to wear the same clothes because it happens all the time. Certain subcultures like Gothic can also cross-gender with their clothing even if they conform to the standard male/female gender roles.
It's not perfect but it's interesting, I don't know why people are complaining if you don't like it don't use the setting? It's not like anyone is forced into using it. I personally use the traditional gender roles but at least now I have the option of trying something new and I'm kinda interested in trying it and seeing how I feel about it. The other thing to consider is that this game is played by a lot of younger people. I like that the developers have kept the option subtle, but at the same time it allows people to explore. It's important for our young people to understand that everyone is different and expresses themselves differently, even if you don't personally understand exactly why they do what they're doing.
Thank you for being so sweet!
As many people have pointed out - what's the big deal? Why are people so offended by this? EA made it very clear that skirt-wearing pregnant men won't be wandering around your towns unless you make them that way. Oh, yeah, that's right - people didn't actually bother to read the articles or patch notes and as soon as they saw a man in a dress they got their Angry Trousers on without knowing what they're talking about.
It's one of many, many options people are individually choosing. I see the plural "they" etc. much more commonly now, though.
@Triplis That's one I haven't seen. Seems unnecessarily complicated to me, but I'm cisgender.
I do think that "they" would be the simplest to put in the game, but I can see how translation becomes an issue. Every language would need its own solution to a nongendered pronoun, and some don't have a natural one like English does ("they" having been a singular nongendered pronoun in the UK for centuries already).
You've got your terms mixed up. There are two SEXES. Gender and Sex are NOT the same thing.
What does this have to do with the topic? If you want to post things like this, make your own thread or make a blog on Wordpress or something.
This has to do with pronoun updates. Also, talk to any gender specialist and they will debunk your claim.
Why do care so much about how 1% of the population lives their lives? Do you really have nothing better to do than tell people that the way they are is wrong?
Call me a SJW, or whatever buzzword you can think of, but I just don't understand why you felt the need to post this.
Actually that's not true , its actually still being debated . There some people who believe gender is social structure and some do not . Infact I watch videos where people who are transgender . Who agree there is only two genders . I don't care what person does once there 18.
It's debatable for sure, but there is a general consensus among the science community concerning it.
I don't like telling people how to live their lives if no one is getting hurt.
Like I but still said some people agree with it , and some don't .( That include scientist, and therapists) Yes, but swifty wasn't telling people how to live their lives . Just stating his opinion.We just need to respect other views , and opinions. No matter how much we disagree.
Some people enjoy gender roles and don't consider them to be backwards or old fashioned or wrong. Of course I have the option to simply not use this patch but every time I boot up TS4 more and more traditionally gendered items are making the cross over on the character select screen and I can see the lines being blurred.
I'm happy that more types of people are being included to enrich their game play and represent themselves but I can't help but feel left behind sometimes. The way people like me are being talked about in this thread upsets me like we are backwards or evil. We should be tolerant of everyone's way of life even if we disagree and we shouldn't be forcing our opinions onto anyone else.
I'm sorry you feel that the lines are being blurred in your game. In all honesty though, I'm not sure I understand why. Can you give an example?
Maybe I just don't even notice it, but the majority of premade sims, for instance, seem to be designed in a way that is in line with gender roles.
This is a personal issue for me, one of my friends is a transgender man and..I won't say what happened but an extremely horrible thing happened to him after he was faced with prejudice and bullying from others.
The reason people are saying things like "backwards" and "evil" in this thread is because the majority of the posts in this thread, and across the forum that were against the update were extremely hateful and rude, not all of them were, and I'm not saying yours was (it wasn't) but the one that was posted on the front page of this thread was. A lot of the anti-trans rhetoric I saw when the update came out was downright horrifying, and some even brought me to tears because my friend was still in the hospital. I don't respect people who use their opinions as an excuse to discrimate, harass, bully, and hurt a certain demographic of people who are just trying to live their lives.
I haven't seen you do such a thing, so I don't think you are backwards or evil.
No no no. There are two different sexes AND genders. Gender is biologically related to sex, but isn't always corresponding. Everything is somewhere on the scale of Male <
> Female. If you put 2 cereals in a bowl, it isn't a new cereal.
I feel the need to defend myself against being called "backwards" and "oppressive" because people get abused for trying to explain the biology of it.
I've never told anyone how to live their life.
But, if you combine sodium and chlorine, you get a new substance of NaCl2 (salt). You could argue that they are made of the same components, but a new substance is still produced when you only had two elements to start with.
Abused, or challenged? No one here has called you anything. I haven't seen any abusive language directed towards anyone against the update in this thread. The reason people are saying those words in other threads is because most of the comments that were against the update were not polite and respectful, they were outright nasty.
If you tell someone that their identity is invalid or wrong (not in the sense that it is immoral, but in the sense that it is not possible) which is what you did, then you are telling someone how to live their life. You can disagree with a harmless (emphasis on harmless) idea but still be respectful of those who practice it. For example, I am not a vegan, never will be, because I cannot live without ice cream. However, I don't tell vegans how to live their lives or tell them that they are wrong or that they should start eating meat because they are "missing out".
Gender is NOT biologically connected to sex. You said so yourself by saying that they don't correspond. It is possible for someone to be born male chromosomes but also have female reproductive organs. Gender is a mental state, and sex is biological. If someone is born with blonde hair, should they not be allowed to dye it brown? There is a YouTube video explaining why gender and sex are different and why there are more than two genders.
I'm not going to force you to agree with me, but I don't think this thread is the best place to have this conversation as it wasn't set up for debate, so feel free to PM me if you want to continue our conversation.
Edit: Dang, I've never seen that line before. I don't agree with your argument, but it does help it emphasize certain points.
And as I've said earlier in this thread, if you want to get actually biological, there is no such thing as a binary sex system.
I've never seen that before, but it seems fine. For most non-binary people, if they haven't specified otherwise, "they" is just fine.
Male and female wouldn't be the two ends of the scale, because cisgender females have varying levels of testosterone and cisgender males have varying levels of estrogen. Additionally, men wouldn't be on the other end because of chromosomes - XY isn't genetically inverse to XX. Men have nipples because we all begin development as genderless. More facts for you: 1% of people biologically not male or female but 'intersex' - look it up, and the sex organs of a fetus develop between 6 and 12 weeks whereas brain development doesn't occur in earnest until nearly 20 weeks in - there's no connection in their developments.
1) Being currently debated doesn't mean it's not true. Evolution was debated for literally hundreds of years - still ongoing.
2) Just because somebody is transgender doesn't mean they're suddenly an expert biologist/psychologist who gets to say what's real and what's not. There is also a lot of transphobia within the trans community, binary trans people directing hate towards non-binary trans people.
3) Why would they have to be 18? You know that physical transition (hormones, surgery) isn't the only way to transition, right?
Their opinion was coming to this thread to directly tell me, a trans person, that what I experience is not real or valid. My opinion is that we should all respect one-another and let people live their lives as they want, as long as they are not harming anyone else.
However, I cannot and will not respect those views, because they are harming others. Just look at the suicide/self-harm rates for trans people. Where do you think they're learning to hate themseles from?
Where we disagree with you is that we believe all should be free as long as they are not harming others, and you either don't know enough about it or believe in freedom of speech which harms others.
Here's the thing - I never said that gender roles are wrong. I'm a liberal feminist - which is the primary belief in 3rd wave feminism. That means I believe that we should all get to choose how to live our lives, as long as no harm comes to anyone because of it. Liberal feminists, and liberals in general, do not want to banish gender roles. What we want to do is take away the stigma from rejecting those roles. We want to ensure that nobody is being forced either into or out of those roles. If you choose to be a housewife who wears dresses every day, good for you! If you get rejected for jobs because you refuse to wear a skirt, that's the problem.
Additionally, that's simply not true about the game. In CAS, as long as you keep the feminine/masculine tags in the clothing menu, women are offered 'women's clothes' and men are offered 'men's clothes'. Unless you're somehow offended by the 'women's trousers', which were already in the game and have nothing to do with the gender patch? Also, the NPCs spawned will always wear their gender-assigned clothing unless you change that.
If you feel left behind, I'm sorry but you really need to take a step back. I'll try and keep this simple and actually related to the game. Through the whole history of The Sims franchise, gender has been binary. Men don't get dresses or skirts, for example. For more than a year, The Sims 4 didn't give men skirts, and women had feminine frames. Now, this one, optional thing is added to the game, but you feel left out? Nothing has been taken from you. No-one forced you to put dresses on your men. They didn't even let NPC men spawn with dresses on! The fact is, one thing has been given to trans people. It wasn't taken from you, it was added for others. And you are 'left behind'?
The overwhelming majority of trans people find "it" highly offensive because the word holds a very long history of trans people being compared to creatures, objects, abnormal people, inhuman things etc, rather than just human beings. Because you are a cisgender female, it is fairly obvious that you would have a better relationship with the word than a trans person - it hasn't necessarily been used against you for decades (arguable due to the treatment of women and other factors). To the trans community, "it" is generally paired with being asked what's in our pants and what we were born as etc. English does have a gender-neutral singular pronoun - they. "They" is more than sufficient for us. "It" makes us sound like a schoolbag or a dog.
But we are trying to explain our side of the biology argument! - and your biology is no more right or wrong than ours, debatably. Abuse directed at you might be people calling you a bigot etc (which didn't actually happen here at all, so..?) but the abuse of trans people is being literally harassed in the street, beaten up, murdered, ignored by governments etc.
If someone is being called nasty names by two people in a forum because they came into a clearly trans space to talk about how trans people aren't real, it's a little different to experiencing verbal and physical abuse from friends and family members on a weekly basis, as well as strangers.
You did, effectively, tell me that I cannot live my life as a trans person because I must always be some combination of male and female, therefore I cannot request an 'other' gender in a game, cannot identify myself as an 'other' gender in my daily life, and cannot feel that my gender is neither male or female.
How many ways can I make people hate me in this thread? Ah, yes, I'm:
- non-binary
- pansexual
- a feminist
- a liberal
- a vegan
- mentally ill (depression, anxiety, OCD and anorexia, before anyone tries to get smart)
Anything to add? Lol
Sorry if I'm reading this wrong, but I'm not hating on you, I am defending you. I have nothing against non-binary people, and I was trying to reason to the person who did have a problem.
As I said before, one of my good friends is transgender and I've seen the things he has had to endure from other people when it comes to prejudice, and it is horrifying. I fully respect and support the transgender and non-binary community. I also support your idea of a pronoun update in the game.
I stand by my opinion that these sort of gender politics should have been optional downloads because whether or not you want to admit it, they are increasing the amount of clothing and hair style cross overs making premade townies more androgynous by the day. Someone like me who values gender roles and thinks they are extremely important feel like our opinions don't matter when this type of thing is a forced download.
So, in conclusion, I support the option, just don't make me download it.