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@SimGuruModSquad: cfe?

What are the chances of the constrainfloorelevation cheat becoming available again? Is there a technical reason for its disappearance from the out-of-box game, or did it just get dropped because nobody assumed it was important?

(For people who like to build, it is very important. Very very. Matters about 50% more than pools and toddlers together.)
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Comments

  • SimGuruModSquadSimGuruModSquad Posts: 597 SimGuru
    Ack sorry, totally forgot to answer this.

    There is no technical reason that this cannot be supported. This one is definitely on our radar, we know it's important to you guys.
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    Made my day! Thanks so much. Now I will patiently wait in the hopes you're going to let us know when something shows up on your radar =).
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  • IngeJonesIngeJones Posts: 3,103 Member
    Bleep! bleep!
  • LeviniLevini Posts: 45 Member
    Well it's obvious you'd be itnroducing teraforming with that so yay!

    Also what are the chances we might be able to have more floors to edit or be able to tune the number of floors?
    -This Space for rent!-
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    In conjunction with this, it would also be very cool if the restriction that friezes can only be placed on middle/high walls could be removed (maybe with a cheat, if it shouldn't be in the vanilla game?). A lot of use one gets out of cfe are things like L-shaped stairs and attics and such, and in many cases a frieze would have to end up on a very short wall.
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  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    @SimGuruModSquad, are there any new developments on this? Asking because this sounds like rather the opposite of what you said above:
    We really like the types of stuff CFE can do, but it was super hard to use in the past and therefore wasn't used my most users. We would like to look for new ways to accomplish similar outcomes in the future though!
    (In reply to my question why it had been removed, about a week ago)

    Does this really mean "we think our users are too stupid" or rather "we prefer selling dormers and stairs for 9.99 in our online store" or .. what?

    (Maybe I misinterpreted your "no technical reason that this cannot be supported" remark? To me that sounded like "no big deal, just have to turn it on" but it could probably also mean "well it's not technically impossible but since it would require a bazillion man-hours to implement, no way it will actually happen" .. )

    ???

    I know nobody can comment on what will / will not happen in the future, I'd just like to know what the problems are with this. It might be similar to moveobjects on in some way? As in, might be mod-able but within certain limitations?
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  • LeviniLevini Posts: 45 Member
    Tbh it feels like EA gutted out build mode the most just to dumb it down. and I honestly would drop TS4 if they sold features that should have been in from the door for more money. no one should have to pay to be able to use features that were previously free and removed because it's too advanced or some lie like that.
    -This Space for rent!-
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    Well the thing is, build mode *is* different in TS4 in some respects (unlike between TS2 and 3, I mean) .. at least the way some things are handled in game is different. What I don't know (and would appreciate insight on) is to what extent the underlying basis is different -- perhaps in a way that would make implementing this a total nightmare (and thus not feasible), even when it would be "technically not impossible".

    I know I'm also guilty of calling it "removed" in my post above, but maybe it wasn't "removed" so much but rather "not implemented again" (because it would be a different feature now)? It might be difficult to handle those flexible-height walls and foundations in conjunction with cfe, for example. Or it might not be. What would happen when you have a "high" wall, shorten that very much using the cheat, and then make it a "low" wall? TS2 was capable of handling less-than-zero heights, but is TS4?

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  • LeviniLevini Posts: 45 Member
    Of course TS4 is different but the way TS4's build mode was done I don't think we'll see what we saw in TS2 or TS3 if EA does implement CFE into TS4 which unfortunately to me makes TS4's build mode seem pretty dumbed down in favour of other things that themselves didn't even feel so fleshed out which makes one wonder why they burned builders over in the first place.

    Tbh though, if it was a technical nightmare to implement then they should be truthful and say something about it not being possible and promise to introduce more build features into later patches or EPs rather than to keep up a lie. Them running around and giving a split answer or double side is really fustrating.

    Now I think maybe that they modified something in build mode like the wall heights and such that do make it harder to implement a cheat like that due to the instability of CFE in previous games.
    -This Space for rent!-
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    Please let's not turn this into yet another thread about "EA are greedy evil liarz" and stuff. I can see how my first post (from today) can be interpreted like that, but the reason I posted here was not to complain about the hand-waviness of that other SimGuruWhoever, but to ask about the current state of affairs. It may or may not have changed. Which is why I was asking @SimGuruModSquad -- pretty sure they are not a marketing person ;)

    There may be good reasons for not implementing something even though it is technically possible. Cf moveobjects -- there is a mod, it has issues, and I suspect these issues are (part of) the reason it isn't officially in the game. Might save some people a lot of time to know beforehand what the problems may be.

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  • SimGuruHolmsSimGuruHolms Posts: 257 SimGuru
    pbox wrote: »
    @SimGuruModSquad, are there any new developments on this? Asking because this sounds like rather the opposite of what you said above:
    We really like the types of stuff CFE can do, but it was super hard to use in the past and therefore wasn't used my most users. We would like to look for new ways to accomplish similar outcomes in the future though!
    (In reply to my question why it had been removed, about a week ago)

    Does this really mean "we think our users are too stupid" or rather "we prefer selling dormers and stairs for 9.99 in our online store" or .. what?

    (Maybe I misinterpreted your "no technical reason that this cannot be supported" remark? To me that sounded like "no big deal, just have to turn it on" but it could probably also mean "well it's not technically impossible but since it would require a bazillion man-hours to implement, no way it will actually happen" .. )

    ???

    I know nobody can comment on what will / will not happen in the future, I'd just like to know what the problems are with this. It might be similar to moveobjects on in some way? As in, might be mod-able but within certain limitations?

    Guys,

    I'm sorry for the confusion. To attempt to clear things up, as some of you have said, the build system is completely new and different from the Sims 3 system. Given that, the cfe cheat would need to be re-implemented, and that would take a fair amount of time. What I was trying to say is when we were deciding what to spend our time on, we prioritized features that have the greatest overall impact first. In the build case, this is so we could deliver an approachable and solid build system, the foundation so to speak. CFE is a really advanced feature. This kind of decision is actually one of the toughest parts of game development. Deciding which features go in, and which ones don't. We always try to strike a balance.

    That said, we love our builders and all the super cool stuff you make and figure out how to make. CFE is a great example of that, it lets you do awesome things that I certainly could never have figured out. Just understanding how it works makes my brain hurt :) We want to make you guys happy, and supporting this kind of feature is something we will certainly talk about!

    Hopefully that answers your questions.
  • LeviniLevini Posts: 45 Member
    Sorry @pbox about that, slight fustration and ranting.

    @SimGuruHolms. From a technical standpoint and considering the changes to Build mode from TS3 to TS4, will it be safe to assume that CFE might get some improvements and there might be a chance that we see CFE possibly getting integrated into Build mode rather than being a cheat code?


    I personally would love to be able to see that as an option on the Build mode UI where I can turn it on and off as needed or desired.

    Also as far as CFE's integration, is it be safe to say that CFE will come with Teraforming when ever you do put that into TS4?
    -This Space for rent!-
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    edited October 2014
    Thanks for following up, @SimGuruHolms! =)

    I understand your reasoning regarding priorities – it just seemed odd that on one hand you seem to be catering to so many other “advanced” build mode features (like spandrels and corbels and roof edges and all those other nitpicky details that I’m afraid not even the majority of builders – let alone “casual” players – will ever really notice), but on the other hand a powerful tool like the cfe cheat is completely absent. I guess those were .. simpler to implement or something?

    Anyway, not sure how this ties in to your decision-making, but you doubtlessly seem to be aware that happy creators –> loads of free content –> happy players –> PROFIT!?!?? That goes for builders, too =D. I have no idea how this compares to “the majority” of creators, but I reckon the majority of my uploads (most of which are lots) would not have been possible without cfe, and my running total of downloads is currently a bit more than 2.5 million .. let's say there are 100 people on this planet who are each 50% as insane as I am? That would mean 125 million downloaders are now very very unhappy because the lots they’re used to play with have been “removed”. (I realise how that's probably way more than there are actual players, but I am marketing-ing here!)

    I can't help but think it would be a wise decision to not only “talk about” supporting this feature again =D


    (And if it ever makes your brain hurt, I hear they have some good tutorials at some of those modding sites .. =P)


    BTW, speaking of the build mode (and also other catalogue) UI: I’m starting to really miss that feature where one could “pop up” the catalogue to make it larger for browsing. This is already an issue for me with doors/windows (takes forever to find stuff when only two rows are visible), and with increasing amounts of CC this will become worse.

    Also, if the cfe thing proves to be difficult, what are those “new ways to accomplish similar outcomes” you were talking about? I case you can give some .. purely theoretical examples, I mean?

    ETA; another build mode thing while I'm at it: would it be terribly difficult to make that shift-bracket cheat (enlarging/ensmallenating objects) work in a .. seamless way? Not sure what the word for that is -- so that when you pull it with, say, alt-RMB it becomes smaller and larger but not in discrete steps? Like how changing the rotation works when holding alt and rotating (vs pressing , / .). That would be super useful for landscaping in particular.


    ETA2, and yet another one: there seem to be quite serious bugs/issues resulting in “Wall does not exist” and “Could not generate Op” errors when roof walls meet normal walls, e.g. with the type of roofing shown here (this also resulted in being unable to save to library, according to that user). Where is the right place to report these? Is the modding forum the right place for Build mode stuff at all? I’d post screenshots and example lots if I knew where ..





    Post edited by pbox on
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  • gsmythegsmythe Posts: 8 New Member
    > @pbox said:
    > Thanks for following up, SimGuruHolms! =)
    >
    > I understand your reasoning regarding priorities – it just seemed odd that on one hand you seem to be catering to so many other “advanced” build mode features (like spandrels and corbels and roof edges and all those other nitpicky details that I’m afraid not even the majority of builders – let alone “casual” players – will ever really notice), but on the other hand a powerful tool like the cfe cheat is completely absent. I guess those were .. simpler to implement or something?
    >
    > Anyway, not sure how this ties in to your decision-making, but you doubtlessly seem to be aware that happy creators –> loads of free content –> happy players –> PROFIT!?!?? That goes for builders, too =D. I have no idea how this compares to “the majority” of creators, but I reckon the majority of my uploads (most of which are lots) would not have been possible without cfe, and my running total of downloads is currently a bit more than 2.5 million .. let's say there are 100 people on this planet who are each 50% as insane as I am? That would mean 125 million downloaders are now very very unhappy because the lots they’re used to play with have been “removed”. (I realise how that's probably way more than there are actual players, but I am marketing-ing here!)
    >
    > I can't help but think it would be a wise decision to not only “talk about” supporting this feature again =D
    >
    >
    > (And if it ever makes your brain hurt, I hear they have some good tutorials at some of those modding sites .. =P)
    >
    >
    > BTW, speaking of the build mode (and also other catalogue) UI: I’m starting to really miss that feature where one could “pop up” the catalogue to make it larger for browsing. This is already an issue for me with doors/windows (takes forever to find stuff when only two rows are visible), and with increasing amounts of CC this will become worse.
    >
    > Also, if the cfe thing proves to be difficult, what are those “new ways to accomplish similar outcomes” you were talking about? I case you can give some .. purely theoretical examples, I mean?
    >
    > ETA; another build mode thing while I'm at it: would it be terribly difficult to make that shift-bracket cheat (enlarging/ensmallenating objects) work in a .. seamless way? Not sure what the word for that is -- so that when you pull it with, say, alt-RMB it becomes smaller and larger but not in discrete steps? Like how changing the rotation works when holding alt and rotating (vs pressing , / .). That would be super useful for landscaping in particular.
    >
    >
    > ETA2, and yet another one: there seem to be quite serious bugs/issues resulting in “Wall does not exist” and “Could not generate Op” errors when roof walls meet normal walls, e.g. with the type of roofing shown here (this also resulted in being unable to save to library, according to that user). Where is the right place to report these? Is the modding forum the right place for Build mode stuff at all? I’d post screenshots and example lots if I knew where ..


    I'm seeing plenty of really great Sims 4 lots out there. I'm not a builder, but it seems that many other builders aren't having any problem making great custom lots with this game. Check out the ones at TSR for example.
  • IngeJonesIngeJones Posts: 3,103 Member
    edited October 2014
    I have to admit, that my whole game used to be building and designing the world and the buildings in it then watching my environment being used by little people. A bit like Will Wright's original inspiration. I was prepared to accept that my world was now going to reach only to the edge of a neighborhood, but I can't come to terms with not being able to edit even that, and the much more restricted tools for even editing the lots and buildings. Yes, it was a huge YAY!!! to find we could move windows up and down, and change roof overhang... but the loss of lot sculpting and CFE has left it all feeling a little crippled. If it weren't for the fact I love analyzing hex data patterns and coding, I'd probably not be involved with The Sims 4 at all at this point.

    I am hoping that before too long we can edit the neighborhood itself, including selecting our own fake houses and backdrop.
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    gsmythe wrote: »
    I'm not a builder, but it seems that many other builders aren't having any problem making great custom lots with this game.

    This thread isn't about "is it possible to make great custom lots without cfe" .. sure it is, nobody claimed otherwise. Just like it's possible to build lots or play the game without any mods/CC. But this forum? Is not about the vanilla options.

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  • SimGuruHolmsSimGuruHolms Posts: 257 SimGuru
    edited October 2014
    pbox wrote: »
    Thanks for following up, @SimGuruHolms! =)

    I understand your reasoning regarding priorities – it just seemed odd that on one hand you seem to be catering to so many other “advanced” build mode features (like spandrels and corbels and roof edges and all those other nitpicky details that I’m afraid not even the majority of builders – let alone “casual” players – will ever really notice), but on the other hand a powerful tool like the cfe cheat is completely absent. I guess those were .. simpler to implement or something?

    Anyway, not sure how this ties in to your decision-making, but you doubtlessly seem to be aware that happy creators –> loads of free content –> happy players –> PROFIT!?!?? That goes for builders, too =D. I have no idea how this compares to “the majority” of creators, but I reckon the majority of my uploads (most of which are lots) would not have been possible without cfe, and my running total of downloads is currently a bit more than 2.5 million .. let's say there are 100 people on this planet who are each 50% as insane as I am? That would mean 125 million downloaders are now very very unhappy because the lots they’re used to play with have been “removed”. (I realise how that's probably way more than there are actual players, but I am marketing-ing here!)

    I can't help but think it would be a wise decision to not only “talk about” supporting this feature again =D


    (And if it ever makes your brain hurt, I hear they have some good tutorials at some of those modding sites .. =P)


    BTW, speaking of the build mode (and also other catalogue) UI: I’m starting to really miss that feature where one could “pop up” the catalogue to make it larger for browsing. This is already an issue for me with doors/windows (takes forever to find stuff when only two rows are visible), and with increasing amounts of CC this will become worse.

    Also, if the cfe thing proves to be difficult, what are those “new ways to accomplish similar outcomes” you were talking about? I case you can give some .. purely theoretical examples, I mean?

    ETA; another build mode thing while I'm at it: would it be terribly difficult to make that shift-bracket cheat (enlarging/ensmallenating objects) work in a .. seamless way? Not sure what the word for that is -- so that when you pull it with, say, alt-RMB it becomes smaller and larger but not in discrete steps? Like how changing the rotation works when holding alt and rotating (vs pressing , / .). That would be super useful for landscaping in particular.


    ETA2, and yet another one: there seem to be quite serious bugs/issues resulting in “Wall does not exist” and “Could not generate Op” errors when roof walls meet normal walls, e.g. with the type of roofing shown here (this also resulted in being unable to save to library, according to that user). Where is the right place to report these? Is the modding forum the right place for Build mode stuff at all? I’d post screenshots and example lots if I knew where ..


    Hmmm, let me try to answer some of your questions, but keep in mind I'm not actually a designer who has directly worked on any build mode features. I concentrate on the game as a whole, with some more emphasis on live mode for me personally.

    As far as features like spandrels and corbels, I believe one reason those were added was as part of an effort to provide new stuff that you had never been able to do before. I wasn't there at the time of the decisions so I'm only hypothesizing, but I do know that CFE and spandrels etc. were never considered at the same time directly against each other. There was likely a meeting at some point that was like, "what are some cool new features we can add to build mode that haven't been done before?" Spandrels etc. likely came out of that, while I happen to know CFE wasn't considered until much later because it was never considered an actual "feature" in the usual terms being a cheat in all. I know for you guys it's something huge, but in general cheats are treated differently because they aren't part of the normal flow of play, which is why they are cheats :)

    I don't know exactly how easy those were to implement versus how hard CFE would be, but I do know things like spandrels and corbels count as content...a lot of the time to make those is simply the modeling involved to create them, while CFE would be a feature completely implemented by engineers. As you might guess, those resources aren't interchangeable so that's another thing to keep in mind :)

    Since we can't talk about future releases, all I can say is we recognize your guys desire for the feature and are talking about it :)

    I'll ask about the expandable UI for browsing stuff.


    As far as "new ways to accomplish similar outcomes", there isn't much I can say there. To try to answer, and address the question above about it being integrated into build mode instead of a cheat, the main difference between cheats and non cheats is if it's not a cheat it cannot create situations that we feel are broken, and in general has a higher requirement of usability. With a cheat if it sometimes breaks stuff, no big deal, it was a cheat and the level of usability doesn't need to be as high because it's not technically "supported" and we aren't expecting just anyone to be able to use it safely...we are fine with people needing tutorials from you guys and all sorts of edge cases where the use of the cheat might break stuff. Anyway, my main point is since this is a "feature" that would need to be completely reconsidered in the new system, it's something we might try to make as a non cheat if we can find a way to make it foolproof enough, which is one way it might (or might not) be different. If it wasn't a cheat, perhaps instead of having to do things like placing a foundation, then deleting it, then putting a wall under it, there might just be a button you could push to accomplish the same thing....I have no idea since it hasn't been designed. But I'm sure we'd at least take a shot at trying to make it easier and faster to do if possible. No promises though, often greater power = less usability so if we couldn't get the power you guys want and solve all the broken edge cases or usability issues, a cheat might be the thing we'd have to stick with.


    I can also ask about the enlarging thing being smooth, but depending on how it works, that may or may not be possible.

    As for bugs, the best place to report bugs is Crinrict's threads (here: http://answers.ea.com/t5/The-Sims-4-Bug-Reports/bd-p/The-Sims-4-Bugs) assuming the bug is in the base game and not related to a mod.

    As far as terrain goes (question above), I can't speak to that either, other than to say we know you guys want that feature as well.
    Post edited by SimGuruHolms on
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    edited October 2014
    Thanks for your thorough answer! Much appreciated, even more when you're "not actually" a build mode person. (I woudn't know who is, btw, your internal food chain is rather obscure to me .. maybe it would be an idea to add some basic info on who does what to the various Guru profiles on this forum? That way, people would have a chance to figure out who they should try to get hold of, instead of randomly pestering the next best person with a "Guru" nametag ..)


    Regarding "actual" content (as in, new shinies) vs functionality, I understand your reasoning -- I assume "actual content" also has the very big advantage of being a lot easier to sell =P. Pretty pictures and all. Still, the point I was trying to drive home above -- in case that wasn't obvious enough already -- is that the "return on investment" on anything that offers more options for creation (be it building or whatever else) should perhaps not only be seen in terms of "percentage of users actually using this feature themselves" but rather "gigatons of content being created by using that thing" .. essentially, give us the tools and you're getting free labour in return. But I guess you know that already, otherwise why would you support modding at all.


    Re cheats vs supported features, that's exactly what I was thinking. But this is actually win-win, isn't it? The cheat way, I mean? You do the foolproof stuff and let modders/creators take care of the rest -- provided we can take care of it, which we can't when we're being locked into a cage of "foolproofness". This has worked very well for like 10 years now; TS2 was never designed for, say, row houses, yet we managed and *nobody* flamed us for a few "edge cases" not being solved. We simply informed people what does and does not work and that was basically it (which is obviously much easier for anyone who is not a business).

    Also, in my experience, creators in general are rarely among the folks who would flood forums with complaints about "game plum" and "EA suck" and "they never test anything" and so on -- on a small scale, they are in the exact same boat when it comes to testing and figuring things out and finally getting them to work, so they can relate. <-- e: Might have been slightly too optimistic here, urgh >.< anyway .. my point being: I don't need a clickybutton, I'm fine with using cheats, I'm fine with stuff going wrong or not always working -- I only want things to be possible when they're technically possible (and not locked away like I'm three years old).

    One thing that would have helped greatly in the TS2 era -- and maybe will be possible now for things like a cfe cheat, seeing as there is actual communication going on? -- would be a little "advance warning" when you already know where the problem zones are, just so that we don't miss things and accidentially share lots that break people's games or something (who in turn may blame it on the game instead of the unsupported procedure .. nobody wants that).




    By the way, how does the sim routing work with the "planes" (floors/levels) in TS4 -- it seems different (improved) from past games, as sims seem to be able to walk up/down a "1-step" foundation without needing stairs at all (I only discovered that on accident o.O) .. they seem to be somehow "aware" they can traverse between levels freely, could that be? Are those stair portals a thing of the past? (This is just pure curiosity .. I was wondering what the issues might be with actually *using* cfe, would sims try to walk up a roof (a sloped ceiling/floor one) now more or less "because they can"?)




    Thanks for checking re. the UI question and the enlarging feature. Regarding that crinrict thread, um .. isn't bug tracking something that should *actually* be your core business? It does smell a bit funny that you're relying on an unpaid external volunteer with that. The roof things are unrelated to mods in any case, I'm sure of that (had it myself often enough). Only not being able to save anymore was something I had never encountered before (knock on wood).
    Post edited by pbox on
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  • SimGuruHolmsSimGuruHolms Posts: 257 SimGuru
    Woops, that basement statement was literally meant to say foundation since that was something I saw done in a CFE tutorial...place a foundation with wall on it, then delete foundation and put wall under it. I changed it in my post. No clue if CFE and basements have anything to do with one another :0

    The routing system is totally different from past games as well and is something I don't know too much about. In general we were more allowing with clipping between Sims to reduce the chance of route issues, which is one reason they route much better...but there is also a ton of awesome tech making it way better. From what an engineer tells me though, stairs are still portals, but the foundation thing is a special piece of code we added just to make that work....I believe because our world builders had built some houses that looked like you should be able to walk into them, but it turned out you couldn't. That was clearly bad so we fixed it.

    On the bug thing, we have a team that tries to keep an eye on all the forums and collect issues/bugs reported by players. I believe Crinrict just does a really good job of outreach to the community and asks for a lot of useful details so we keep an extra eye on that thread. But that whole forum is devoted to people reporting bugs.
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    edited October 2014
    I just happened across that "daily 2PM to whatever" thread right when it was opened (by someone specialising in Build Mode, as it happens! =) -- well, now I asked that same question twice (about the floors/planes/stairs/stuff). Information overload! They said essentially the same though: foundations now are intelligent, telling the sims "you can walk down here".

    I have to say I am slightly envious of your world builders. XD


    Okay, I will pretend the basement conversation never happened. =P

    (CFE is useful for pretty much everything, basements too! Like when you want to build L- or U-shaped stairs that lead down to "DIY" basements (not the ones made with the basement tool), you need cfe to slope the walls around them. Like this.)

    Post edited by pbox on
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  • splizzmochsplizzmoch Posts: 62 Member
    > @SimGuruHolms said:
    >...while I happen to know CFE wasn't considered until much later because it was never considered an actual "feature" in the usual terms being a cheat in all.

    May I humbly suggest that Maxis may need to reevaluate its concept of "cheat" in this case? This is what I see this CFE subject is all about -

    Supposing the logical structure of the simulation is based on Maslow's hierarchy of needs and incorporates Johari Windows... these are the "immutable" (or least pliable) foundations of the simulation's function; any modification which would break or radically alter their operation would certainly be a "cheat", same as in the real world. This of course is the point of *simulation*...

    Now let's go one step further and balance the analogy... Suppose you built a house, and found you needed to call a construction crew with a bulldozer and cranes to shape the land as needed and construct your design there... irl, that's certainly not a "cheat" by any stretch of the imagination.

    I do realize that the engineering team likely consider the CFE tool to be a cheat because it is ultimately "outside" of their designed toolkit, an "in-house BOS", if you will... but then again, just because you call it something, doesn't mean it IS that, even if you created it. Maxis calls it a cheat, but the community recognizes it for the bulldozer-and-crane that it is.
    If I make a sculpture of a swan, and call it a potato, is it? :/

    Personally, I'm more into the live mode than build, but I can tell you that if a tool like CFE was available, I'd spend a whole lot more time creating interesting areas for gameplay than I do now.

    Skatepark, anyone? :D
  • pboxpbox Posts: 630 Member
    I don't think cfe and terraforming are the same thing.
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