I don't agree on the 33-33-33 percent division between sandbox, simulation and RPG because there isn't even RPG elements in all Sims games (Sims 3 World Adventures was just the exception). The definition of RPG games is: "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]"
RPG games was mainly a further development of the earlier adventure games where all the quests had to be solved in the predefined order. But RPG games have much more freedom about this.
So instead I see the Sims games as a mix of the following 3 types of games: life simulation, sandbox and time management games. They also have elements from dressup games and simulation tools to build and decorate houses.
Actually, roleplaying games descend from tabletop wargaming, but that's not particularly important to the argument at hand. What is important is that the Wikipedia definition you provided also serves as a definition of what happens in Sims games. You do indeed take the role of a fictional character and take responsibility for acting out the role via the creation of a narrative. Success and/or failure is based on character aptitude and occurs through a formalized system of rules. Sounds like the game play of every Sims game ever.
The first role playing game in modern time was Dungeons&Dragons which was popular as a tabletop role playing game in the 1970s. Versions of this game was also later released as computer games. But they have never interested me. I think that the first RPG game I ever played was the old DOS game Conan the Cimmerian from 1991 which you can see on http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/1026/Conan+-+The+Cimmerian.html It was an impressive game in those days
Dungeons & Dragons was the first commercially-released roleplaying game. It was based on Gygax's Chainmail, a medieval themed wargame published in 1971. But if we're measuring virtual size, the first RPG I played was AD&D in 1979. The first cRPG I played was Wizardry in '81.
The tabletop RPG games where you needed a gamemaster to set up the game - never interested me.
But RPG games require that you identify yourself with one of your characters or with a group of characters and attempt to be successful. In the Sims games you raise a family and let them become old and even die. Then you play the same way with their children. So if you identify yourself with some of your sims then you must have your own death as a goal and be quite suicidal
The Sims 3 World Adventures was about solving series of quests in 3 different countries. While doing this you were the one who figured out how to do that and then just let your sim do it for you. So this was real role playing which TS4 to my knowledge doesn't have at all.
Actually, identifying yourself with a character is a mark of poor roleplay. I'm making the decisions that my character, the established character or my sim are making, not the choices that I would make. I am playing the character, but the character is not me. As such, the remark about The Sims series incorporating roleplay elements from day one stands. It is a pretty simple and obvious fact.
If you don't assume the role of your character then it is just simulation and not roleplaying. Just like it isn't roleplaying to send huge armies at war and then just return to recruite a new army after each battle. It is just simulation of a war. Your characters are just means to conduct the war. Just like your sims are just means to simulate life in your city if you just let them grow up and die to make room for your next sims and families.
Look, you're trying to lecture a guy that has been playing roleplaying games for 40 years, even though you yourself admit to having little to no experience with them. Bottom line is that roleplaying the character as an extension of yourself is poor form and for obvious reasons. That character is probably going to die, and certainly going to have bad stuff happen to them. Anybody who has ever played knows just what can happen around the table when that goes on.
You can play hundreds of roleplaying games and other games. But if you haven't any interest in dividing your games in categories then you will likely just call them all roleplaying games even though they aren't
You praise roleplaying games but at the same time you think that your character is likely to die because this happens in other types of games like war games and a life simulation game like TS4. But I can assure you that it has never happened in the roleplaying games that I have played. If it happens anyway I will be told that I have lost the game and asked if I want to reload an earlier savegame
Praise roleplaying games? What are you on about? We're talking about how roleplaying a character is similar in both an RPG and in The Sims. And it is true. Then there's this new "you just don't think about things". It's getting a little too sophomoric here for my tastes.
But killing your characters to get room for your characters children to take over like you do in the Sims games has nothing to do with roleplaying. It is just life simulation about playing the same family in several generations without caring about the indivual members of the family. Just like sending an army at war without caring about the individuals and their lives in games like Starcraft has nothing to do with roleplaying. Yes you can change the look of the characters in many wargames too. But after you maybe have done that you usually don't care about those characters anyway (except as war machines). This isn't roleplaying even though the idea to let you modify the looks of your soldiers and war machines is stolen from roleplaying games.
First off, you talked about having some sort of death wish if you roleplayed a sim. I then pointed out the reality that you're playing that sim, not yourself, for various reasons including the fact that the character will likely die. Now you're flipping and flopping to tell me that I know nothing because I just kill my characters and therefore have no idea about "gaming categories". The whole line of discourse descends from the following remark.
But RPG games require that you identify yourself with one of your characters or with a group of characters and attempt to be successful. In the Sims games you raise a family and let them become old and even die. Then you play the same way with their children. So if you identify yourself with some of your sims then you must have your own death as a goal and be quite suicidal
So now you want to tell me that Starcraft is not an RPG. Thank you Erpe. Thank you very much. Duck Hunt is also not an RPG. Your turn.
OP your analysis was interesting to read and think about, and I appreciate the time you spent in writing it.
I agree that it lacks considerably in some areas especially, but I would say it lacks in all three areas. It seems they spent/spend all their animation budget in creating silly, overly-exaggerated emotional expressions and then skip many of the rest. Consider that there are no animations depicting sims opening the door to the dishwasher for example - to me there is a lot of 'poofing' going on in this game and I would say that this is not good simulation, either.
It's not that I believe that every little thing needs to be simulated in the game, and in fact it can't be and and it never has been - but they could sure do a much better job of filling in the big gaping holes they've left in this game. For me it's not a question of details so much as believably - the player needs to be convinced that the actions on the screen are 'believability' in the sims' scenario they are playing, yes? I think you can only cut so many details before the simulation stops being believable.
TS2 actually had the best simulation in this respect; lots of very detailed animations, but it also had some cartoon-like behavior thrown in but just not as exaggerated at 4. With TS3 they began to cut corners on animations, although over time they did add quite a lot more of them. But now in TS4 there aren't even corners to cut, just jagged edges everywhere. At least that is my perception. Acceptable if you aren't too picky and get a kick out of the 'cartooniness', but unacceptable if you are the opposite.
However if you stick to your definition of simulation, and say it just involves adding content that covers things that people do in real life on a daily basis (and skip the idea of how lacking in details it is), then I guess I could agree with you. But then I'm left with thinking about how little content they actually put out for this game and so that feels very unsatisfactory, too.
I think your definition of RPG is interesting, and I agree that the game lacks simulated, diverse personalities. But I don't play other games so have no background in other RPGs. I think one could also make an argument that the lack of personality is due to inadequate simulation, IMO. If they are attempting to simulate pixel people they are not doing so successfully.
As for the lack of sandbox elements, I couldn't agree more. Those sandbox elements made the game re-playable over and over again, in many many different ways. A game like the Sims that goes on for many years needs to have that re-playability factor if it expects to keep customers coming back for more content. Although it seems a lot of people come back for more content alone just to counter the boredom. The only problem with that is that it's very short lived and then you're bored again because there isn't much of it and there are not enough options for playing with the content in a creative way.
So what's up with Sims 4? It's focused far too much on Simulation and far too little on Sandbox and RPG elements.
I think this line nails it for me.
I don't know... I don't think it even simulates very well, the animations are all well and good but there's very little actual simulation going on behind them, Sims have very little personality and no memory at all.
I'd say that the problem with the Sims 4 is that it's all show and no substance.
I think this is the bottom line, really. It not only lacks in simulated human activities, it lacks in simulating human relationships and personalities. So for me it fails on all three of the OPs basic elements.
That's not to say that there won't be some people who like what's left - it's obvious that the game has its fans. But for people who liked any or all of those elements it could definitely be seen as a huge disappointment.
The Sims
Where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?!
I know this has nothing to do with the conversation and I'm sorry but I need help my sims keep disappearing from my family tree and household management PLZ HELP!!!
RPGs are perhaps the most distant from the Sims as a genre
But on the same account viewing the original sims game as an rpg made me warm up to the concept: In the beginning I create my party with their attributes that make the sims suited for certain roles. Then I go to work, earn cash to buy new equipment that allows me to better skill them and in turn tackle harder objectives (new job levels) and get even better gear. Suddenly this strange new game was something familiar! Just another rpg, albeit in an exotig setting. The storytelling aspect of roleplaying kicked in later for me and by now I'm about 50:50 divided between powergaming and playing my characters.
I think what infuriates me most is when the GM (the game) assumes control of my characters, for example by assigning them roles as bartenders or business employees when according to my background for them they are actually working for a private security company (a GT club) or college professors (a normal household). It's just not done in tabletop roleplay unless the GM can justify it by in-world mechanics (mind control, drugs). The only in-world mechanic I could imagine is a government edict that allows for the drafting of everyone not employed in a small set of careers. But how dares the game define the in-world laws of my setting? - This is just an example how the sims can irritate roleplayers (though by the definitions given in the original post that would be more of a sandbox player's concern). And the bottomline, for me, is that the game is doing nothing wrong, actually. It never knocked at my door saying hello I'm your new sandbox-roleplaying game. These are simply my projections and allusion and the game's hardly at fault for not fully meeting them.
My other issue with the series started around Sims 3: World Adventures that was so much "look, but don't touch". All the nice scenery, but totally lackluster if you didn't play either a photographer. San Myshuno is a lot like that, too.
And it may explain why I like some elements of the Sims games and not others (or, at least, not like as much as the previous elements I do like).
I think I like all three genre elements (Simulation, RPG, and Sandbox), but not in equal percentages.
Thinking more on it, I think I am one of those who likes mostly RPG and simulation over sandbox. Pure sandbox games like Minecraft and Terrieria (can't spell it) tend to sort of bore me after a while.
I tend to prefer games with goals (with some flexibility) and progression like some types of RPGs.
I loved RPGs* with exploration and a bit of freedom like Elder Scrolls games like Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, as well as more story-oriented (but still having some choices) Bioware RPGs like Dragon Age and Mass Effect games, as well as Shin Megami Tensei games.
I also LOVED playing Phantasy Star Online, especially with my sisters in multiplayer mode.
I love having NPCs to interact with and worlds to explore while still doing goals and progressing/improving a character, so that is probably why RPG elements to speak to me.
I loved the treasure hunting and character progression as one battles and grinds throughout the game.
I also loved trying out a few different character builds and see how they play out differently in the game. (For example, in playing a Mage is different than playing a Fighter, or a Defense Fighter vs an Offensive Fighter, etc.)
In Sims, I loved trying to achieve the Sims' daily and life goals and their wants and needs. I loved seeing how traits or personality stats affect Sims differently, too, so the older Sims games tend to appeal to me more than Sims 4 in that sense.
I also love to explore and customize (especially when it comes to character building), but I am not fond of building lots or buildings/locations. I mostly use premade buildings or other people's creations whenever I can when it comes to building and creating.
I love Simulation aspects, too, so that could be why I love stuff like Harvest Moon, Story of Seasons, and Rune Factory 4.
Rune Factory 4 was a great combo of different elements. It's basically got the Harvest Moon farming and dating simulation elements combined with action-RPG elements of dungeon crawling and battling monsters and equipping and crafting weapons, etc. I also got to sell and barter stuff in that game as well! The town is lively with characters following their schedules and sometimes having different dialogue over time as you got to know them, or just commenting on certain events that have happened, etc.
Rune Factory 4 was a game that had a lot of great things that appealed to me.
However, it, alongside some of the games I have mentioned above, doesn't have very strong Sandbox elements. It has some minor elements and has choices of what quests to take or not take, but overall customization is pretty limited (especially compared to Sims 3). But... this didn't bother me, as I am more into the gameplay (with choices) and story aspects and character interaction and development.
So, so I guess your theory could explain why I do like Sims 4 somewhat (simulation aspects and a bit of RPG with vamp gameplay), but disappointed in it at the same time (not enough RPG elements, simulation is not as detailed, and sandbox is not done as well as Sims 2/3). It could also explain why I enjoyed some elements of Sims 3, but not others, and maybe why I always prefer Sims 2 the most.
In summary: I am much more for RPG and Simulation with a small bit of sandbox.
I hope this post made sense, lol. Interesting topic.
*ETA: I tend to prefer more western RPGs because of more freedom and choices, though I do enjoy some JRPGs. I also like playing action-adventure/action-games, some platforming games, point-and-click adventure games and even some time management games.
Comments
Praise roleplaying games? What are you on about? We're talking about how roleplaying a character is similar in both an RPG and in The Sims. And it is true. Then there's this new "you just don't think about things". It's getting a little too sophomoric here for my tastes.
First off, you talked about having some sort of death wish if you roleplayed a sim. I then pointed out the reality that you're playing that sim, not yourself, for various reasons including the fact that the character will likely die. Now you're flipping and flopping to tell me that I know nothing because I just kill my characters and therefore have no idea about "gaming categories". The whole line of discourse descends from the following remark.
So now you want to tell me that Starcraft is not an RPG. Thank you Erpe. Thank you very much. Duck Hunt is also not an RPG. Your turn.
I agree that it lacks considerably in some areas especially, but I would say it lacks in all three areas. It seems they spent/spend all their animation budget in creating silly, overly-exaggerated emotional expressions and then skip many of the rest. Consider that there are no animations depicting sims opening the door to the dishwasher for example - to me there is a lot of 'poofing' going on in this game and I would say that this is not good simulation, either.
It's not that I believe that every little thing needs to be simulated in the game, and in fact it can't be and and it never has been - but they could sure do a much better job of filling in the big gaping holes they've left in this game. For me it's not a question of details so much as believably - the player needs to be convinced that the actions on the screen are 'believability' in the sims' scenario they are playing, yes? I think you can only cut so many details before the simulation stops being believable.
TS2 actually had the best simulation in this respect; lots of very detailed animations, but it also had some cartoon-like behavior thrown in but just not as exaggerated at 4. With TS3 they began to cut corners on animations, although over time they did add quite a lot more of them. But now in TS4 there aren't even corners to cut, just jagged edges everywhere. At least that is my perception. Acceptable if you aren't too picky and get a kick out of the 'cartooniness', but unacceptable if you are the opposite.
However if you stick to your definition of simulation, and say it just involves adding content that covers things that people do in real life on a daily basis (and skip the idea of how lacking in details it is), then I guess I could agree with you. But then I'm left with thinking about how little content they actually put out for this game and so that feels very unsatisfactory, too.
I think your definition of RPG is interesting, and I agree that the game lacks simulated, diverse personalities. But I don't play other games so have no background in other RPGs. I think one could also make an argument that the lack of personality is due to inadequate simulation, IMO. If they are attempting to simulate pixel people they are not doing so successfully.
As for the lack of sandbox elements, I couldn't agree more. Those sandbox elements made the game re-playable over and over again, in many many different ways. A game like the Sims that goes on for many years needs to have that re-playability factor if it expects to keep customers coming back for more content. Although it seems a lot of people come back for more content alone just to counter the boredom. The only problem with that is that it's very short lived and then you're bored again because there isn't much of it and there are not enough options for playing with the content in a creative way.
I think this is the bottom line, really. It not only lacks in simulated human activities, it lacks in simulating human relationships and personalities. So for me it fails on all three of the OPs basic elements.
That's not to say that there won't be some people who like what's left - it's obvious that the game has its fans. But for people who liked any or all of those elements it could definitely be seen as a huge disappointment.
Where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?!
But on the same account viewing the original sims game as an rpg made me warm up to the concept: In the beginning I create my party with their attributes that make the sims suited for certain roles. Then I go to work, earn cash to buy new equipment that allows me to better skill them and in turn tackle harder objectives (new job levels) and get even better gear. Suddenly this strange new game was something familiar! Just another rpg, albeit in an exotig setting. The storytelling aspect of roleplaying kicked in later for me and by now I'm about 50:50 divided between powergaming and playing my characters.
I think what infuriates me most is when the GM (the game) assumes control of my characters, for example by assigning them roles as bartenders or business employees when according to my background for them they are actually working for a private security company (a GT club) or college professors (a normal household). It's just not done in tabletop roleplay unless the GM can justify it by in-world mechanics (mind control, drugs). The only in-world mechanic I could imagine is a government edict that allows for the drafting of everyone not employed in a small set of careers. But how dares the game define the in-world laws of my setting? - This is just an example how the sims can irritate roleplayers (though by the definitions given in the original post that would be more of a sandbox player's concern). And the bottomline, for me, is that the game is doing nothing wrong, actually. It never knocked at my door saying hello I'm your new sandbox-roleplaying game. These are simply my projections and allusion and the game's hardly at fault for not fully meeting them.
My other issue with the series started around Sims 3: World Adventures that was so much "look, but don't touch". All the nice scenery, but totally lackluster if you didn't play either a photographer. San Myshuno is a lot like that, too.
As for simulation, I like my sims to be able to do things I can't do in real life. Like being a vampire or a plant creature.
And it may explain why I like some elements of the Sims games and not others (or, at least, not like as much as the previous elements I do like).
I think I like all three genre elements (Simulation, RPG, and Sandbox), but not in equal percentages.
Thinking more on it, I think I am one of those who likes mostly RPG and simulation over sandbox. Pure sandbox games like Minecraft and Terrieria (can't spell it) tend to sort of bore me after a while.
I tend to prefer games with goals (with some flexibility) and progression like some types of RPGs.
I loved RPGs* with exploration and a bit of freedom like Elder Scrolls games like Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, as well as more story-oriented (but still having some choices) Bioware RPGs like Dragon Age and Mass Effect games, as well as Shin Megami Tensei games.
I also LOVED playing Phantasy Star Online, especially with my sisters in multiplayer mode.
I love having NPCs to interact with and worlds to explore while still doing goals and progressing/improving a character, so that is probably why RPG elements to speak to me.
I loved the treasure hunting and character progression as one battles and grinds throughout the game.
I also loved trying out a few different character builds and see how they play out differently in the game. (For example, in playing a Mage is different than playing a Fighter, or a Defense Fighter vs an Offensive Fighter, etc.)
In Sims, I loved trying to achieve the Sims' daily and life goals and their wants and needs. I loved seeing how traits or personality stats affect Sims differently, too, so the older Sims games tend to appeal to me more than Sims 4 in that sense.
I also love to explore and customize (especially when it comes to character building), but I am not fond of building lots or buildings/locations. I mostly use premade buildings or other people's creations whenever I can when it comes to building and creating.
I love Simulation aspects, too, so that could be why I love stuff like Harvest Moon, Story of Seasons, and Rune Factory 4.
Rune Factory 4 was a great combo of different elements. It's basically got the Harvest Moon farming and dating simulation elements combined with action-RPG elements of dungeon crawling and battling monsters and equipping and crafting weapons, etc. I also got to sell and barter stuff in that game as well!
Rune Factory 4 was a game that had a lot of great things that appealed to me.
However, it, alongside some of the games I have mentioned above, doesn't have very strong Sandbox elements. It has some minor elements and has choices of what quests to take or not take, but overall customization is pretty limited (especially compared to Sims 3). But... this didn't bother me, as I am more into the gameplay (with choices) and story aspects and character interaction and development.
So, so I guess your theory could explain why I do like Sims 4 somewhat (simulation aspects and a bit of RPG with vamp gameplay), but disappointed in it at the same time (not enough RPG elements, simulation is not as detailed, and sandbox is not done as well as Sims 2/3). It could also explain why I enjoyed some elements of Sims 3, but not others, and maybe why I always prefer Sims 2 the most.
In summary: I am much more for RPG and Simulation with a small bit of sandbox.
I hope this post made sense, lol.
*ETA: I tend to prefer more western RPGs because of more freedom and choices, though I do enjoy some JRPGs. I also like playing action-adventure/action-games, some platforming games, point-and-click adventure games and even some time management games.
(She/her)