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Fixing Death and Other Musings
esharpmajor
Posts: 1,055 Member
My Experience
I just had my first sim die.
Yes, finally. I've been playing slowly, 20 minutes here and there, no more than an hour/week, because I'm still dragging my heels when it comes to getting 'into' Sims 4. With long ageing and the occasional stint of ageing off, death just hasn't come up yet. I knew based on people's posts here that the reactions of other sims were going to seem hollow, so I've been dreading it more than usual.My legacy founder, Ian, had a long and prosperous life. He had so many friends, and a big family, but alas, he was mourned only by his daughter in law.
He deserved better. I tried to rush everyone into the room when he started goin' down, but I think I was a bit too late - they all started watching TV while the reaper sowed his grisly harvest. 
Disappointing, but expected, so at least it didn't come as a huge shock. (Thanks for the heads up forum goers, I would have been furious if I hadn't mentally prepared myself for this lacklustre feature.)R.I.P. Ian Sims. I will remember you, even if no one else, including your wife and children, will. *cue Sarah Mclachlan music*
My Opinion
To me, birth, growth, and death are some of the biggest concepts that the Sims tackles. Outside of interactions between Sims, I think the life-cycle and corresponding behaviour is the most effective opportunity for endearing Sims to the player, and give them a sense of completion, and connectedness within their Sim family/community. When a sim dies 'well', there should be a feeling of pride, accomplishment, and - for those sims left behind - loss. Why bother making a Sim beloved by all if he will be remembered by none?
I want to feel rewarded for a sim-life well lived. I want to feel that each sim is irreplaceable and unique not only because of the skills or goals he has achieved but because of the effect he had on those around him. I don't want to feel like a sim I just made in the gallery and brought into the world is just as fleshed out as one I raised from infancy. I want growth, connectedness, and a sense of lasting impact.
The milestones of the sim's lives should be important to them, and to those that love them. This all fits into the missing 'family play' that has become a constant refrain of players like me. When a new child is born, the entire extended family (family friends included) should be involved, and the same should be true of deaths. This is the easiest way I see to create a sense of 'community' and 'family' within this game. The events in our lives that bring us all together should also bring our sims together. They should support one another, and feel emotionally connected to each other.
I think the devs need to ask themselves - how do people show love? Is it by hugging each other all day er'yday? Or is it by being there for one another during the good times and the bad? Reacting in a supportive manner to successes and failures? Defending each other against those that want to harm us? I want my sim to congratulate her husband on his big promotion and want to throw him a party. I want my sim's best friend to share in her excitement as she expects her first child. I want my sim's husband to defend her honor when some random starts implying that she looks like a llama. I want my sim's mother to try to get involved with the raising of her grandchildren - for better or worse.
Sadly, I feel the question that I am forced to ask myself while playing is: If the Sims don't even love each other, why should I?Okay, now you have a general idea of how I feel about the topic, let's get down to the specifics. Death. What's wrong with it, and what can be done?
The Trouble With Death
Currently, the reactions appear to require line of sight at the start of the death event. The moodlet caused by witnessing death can be overridden by any other moodlets, even during the event, which may lead to a lack of visible reaction even if line of sight was achieved and moodlet acquired. The animated reaction to the death appears to be the same regardless of relationship with the victim, or traits. Sims that do not directly witness the event do not receive a moodlet, or care in any way. (Please correct me if I'm wrong here, obviously I haven't seen many deaths so I'm just going by the word of the community and my own observations.)
1. The Awareness Factor
Personally I'd be happy if the dying sim 'called out' and the sims on the lot could hear their cries and come running. I know they wanted to remove the psychic reactions, but I think when people complained about that it was mostly in regards to cheating, not deaths and births. (Please forgive me and inform me if my assumption is wrong on that.) And besides, your house would have to be pretty darned sound proof for you to not hear labour pain screams, or cries for help. In my book, on-lot awareness is an easy fix: Make them all come running. Done.
Sims off the lot are a different situation. My simplest solution would be if an active sim was off lot for the death, they should immediately be updated upon returning home and go straight to the tombstone/urn to mourn (or laugh hysterically if that's the sort of sim they are...
) They should then receive a moodlet relating to the death, which is based on their relationship with the deceased and their traits. (An evil sim who hated the deceased might get the 'death of an enemy' moodlet, which would give them a confident or happy moodlet, for example.)An active sims should be able to inform NPCs of the death. There aught to be an "Inform friends and family of Ian's passing" option on the phone, with a simple sobbing animation and some comforting words via text box from the deceased's closest friends and fam. In person, the active sim should be able to "Inform of Ian's passing". The sim being informed should react/receive moodlets based on their traits and relationship with the deceased.
2. The Emotional Disconnect
A sim present on lot during a death should have a sustained reaction to the event for it's duration even if the related moodlet is 'overpowered' by something else. This reaction should be based on traits and relationship with the dying. Once the death event is over, the moodlet can be overridden, but while someone is actively dying in front of their faces they should forget everything else until that situation has been resolved.
Personally, I think the mood bonus for 'milestone events' should far outweigh any 'incidental' mood buffs. Perhaps this could be accomplished by having a tiered priority system: Normal moodlets would be considered Tier 1 (ie: the +1 energetic moodlet from an energized shower) while milestone moodlets would be considered Tier 2. 'Death of a Loved One' would be considered tier 2, and for the purposes of this example let's say it gives you +10 sadness. No amount of tier ones should be able to override that. It would take another tier 2 buff(s) the value of which is greater than or equal to +10 to override.
Here's an example: Kaylee's father dies, giving her +10 sadness. She might already have 10 +1's from environment, or showering or whatever, but she is still sad because the death moodlet is Tier 2 while everything else is Tier 1. Later that day, Kaylee gives birth to a new baby. The 'had a baby' moodlet is also a milestone and therefore is also Tier 2. The 'had a baby' moodlet grants her +10 happiness. Now the Tier 2 moodlets are balancing each other out, and her mood will be dictated by the tier 1 effects that remain. However, since she witnessed her father's death, it's likely that she will remain sad as she will also have the "witnessed death" moodlet which would not last as long, but would give her a significant sad buff.
This way acquaintances visiting during the death will still react to the death but in a more appropriate way. The animation for that should be shocked, upset, and uncomfortable, but not outright sobbing in the exact same manner as the deceased's widow. The death of the stranger should not haunt them as the death of a loved one would, and as such can be overridden by other tier 1's.
It would be lovely if they could recognize that they witnessed the death of someone ELSE'S loved one though, and perhaps reach out to those present who are more effected than they. Let's say Kaylee has her friend Brenda over when Kaylee's father died. Brenda had only just met Kaylee's father, but knows that his death is a huge blow for Kaylee. Great opportunity for Brenda to show a little empathy here; instead of reacting in the exact same fashion as Kaylee, she should try to keep it together, and offer Kaylee her support. If Brenda didn't really know Kaylee, maybe she would take that opportunity to head home, not wanting to intrude. It'd be hilarious if Brenda was evil, and instead of consoling Kaylee, she could 'Speak poorly of the deceased', or 'mock sorrow' for a huge relationship hit.
(Random aside: I remember the first time I saw a dead body, it was a homeless man who had fallen asleep in a park and died over night. I was walking by as the paramedics called ToD. I stopped, and covered my mouth in shock and felt horrible for the man, but though it shook me up certainly, I moved on with my day. I definitely didn't burst into tears and run to sob over his body. If he had loved ones around him sobbing I may have offered them consoling words, asked if I could help in any way, but I wouldn't have started wailing louder than they were and made the whole situation about me. That would have been rude, and weird... and well... sim-like.)
3. The Follow-through
Sims who share the 'death of a loved one' moodlet should lean on each other for support; they could have the ability to 'cry on shoulder', 'reminisce about the deceased', 'share sorrows' etc.
The immediate family of the deceased should be most effected by their passing, and the extended friends and family network should come together to support them. I would love to see my sim's best friend show up with a casserole. Perhaps she could offer to clean up, or watch the kids. At the least, they should autonomously 'console' the bereaved. Family members that live off the lot should come by to share their sorrow, and comfort one another.
Most importantly, a sim's life should be commemorated! Funerals and cemeteries are a must, as far as I'm concerned.
At the risk of (ironically) raising a thread from the dead, I will simply link @halimali1980's thread about funerals here because the ideas presented there are terrific: http://forums.thesims.com/en_US/discussion/comment/13374709#Comment_13374709
Once the funeral has been held, the bereaved would have some closure, perhaps this could shorten the span of the 'death of a loved one' moodlet, or add a new tier two moodlet called 'Celebrated Ian's Life', which would offset the effects of the sadness without removing the moodlet, allowing the special interactions to remain, without the accompanying sadness.
4. The Long-Term
So the funeral is over, the moodlets have worn off, and life is getting back to normal for Kaylee. She will never think of her father ever again. Wait... no that's SOCIOPATHIC!
She should be able to tell her children about their grandfather, reminisce with others who knew him, and look fondly at pictures of him. She should be able to visit the cemetery to mourn his grave, opening up graveyard specific options like "Tell funny story about Ian", "Share memories of Ian" or "Place flowers" on his grave.
How amazing would that be if Kaylee, her husband and their kids could go to the graveyard and while all in a group convo "Have a moment of silence for lost loved ones"? (I assume you shouted "SO AMAZING!" back at me.)
Perhaps Kaylee's husband hated her father. Maybe he could kick the grave, causing the others to become upset with him! He could "speak poorly of the dead", or "tell mean story about Ian".
5. The Final Word
In a very small nutshell: I want the death of a sim to have an impact on everyone involved, and thereby showcase the sim's unique relationships, and personalities.
Look, I'm not saying death should loom over our sim's forever, but they should hold their loved ones in their hearts, not cull them like unwanted townies. The amount of depth this could add, for generational players especially, is immense. I really hope some more thought and work is put into this aspect of the game in the future. In my opinion birth and death are literally the most important component to a life simulator. Without either, all of this falls apart. As a result, I think the gameplay surrounding both births and deaths needs to be deeper than it currently is.
Do you agree? Do you have any better/alternative solutions? Do you think I'm a beautiful genius who deserves cookies? Do you think I've gone on for way too long already? Okay okay, fair enough. That's it. Hope you liked it!
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Comments
With the Sims 4, I had one family the elder spouse in it kept dying from woohoo just because I wanted the couple to have kids. He died like 10 times and every time the spouse was asleep and couldn't save her husband from death with the grim reaper. There was no emotional response and she was over him in a few days. I was so upset how she reacted that I had to go back to a previous save file. I got so fed up with the emotional deaths feeling like my Sims were killing each other that I just had to mod out all the emotional deaths out of my game. It was sick and demented for me and usually I'm a deviant Simmer how quickly my Sims could die from laughter or from being angry. It just ruined my deviant play style. If a Sim dies accidentally, I want a good story to go along with it. But how the Sims could kill each other was letting the game play for me rather than me playing the game. The game was telling me how my Sims were feeling emotional rather than letting me experience their sadness when the death occurred. I can't even call the emotions real emotions because they come and go like whims and moodlets. There just isn't an emotional connection between my Sims and death and other lie events I can easily see that my Sims hate each other rather than care about each other. It's like the game is mocking me of haha your Sim is dead and their family doesn't care about it. I don't like it.
LOL (that's a cookie!)
Honestly, I liked your ideas. Clearly they need to do something to improve the simulation/emotions, and you have some solid ideas that would improve the depth of the game. I can't really think of anything to add at the moment. I hope they consider implementing something.
Where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?!
"What are you doing?!" He said aghast, knowing how much time I'd put into that particular family. (This was Sam Sims, Ian's son
"Punishing him. He's an idiot." I snap angrily.
"And this is fun for you?"
"..." I continue to glare daggers into my monitor.
"Isn't that the family you spent hours making?"
"..."
"And you're just killing him off? Just like that?"
"..."
"Kinda seems like you're punishing yourself."
*sheepishly reloads save*
I hope in a year or two things will improve, but if it's going to happen (and that itself is unclear to me) it does take time. So I guess I'd rather stick with previous games rather than to get so frustrated that I want to kill all my sims.
Where are we going, and why am I in this hand basket?!
I am, like you, disappointed with the reaction to deaths in this game.
When one of my elder sims died on the footpath outside her home there was more reaction from the passing sims, who stopped and gathered around her body and murmured with sad faces. They stayed for a while doing that, her son was crying, and there was absolutely no reaction from her daughter.
It was disheartening to watch.
I think what you've articulated here can be applied to the game as a whole. Although this specific topic is death, and I mean to stay on topic, I think everything you mentioned calls on a flawed foundation of the emotion and relationship system in the game that needs to be improved. I say needs because I think it could make the game fantastic (maybe a little bit of an overstatement just because I think there are also many other things missing aside from emotions/relationships). If the reactions/interactions you mentioned were actually in TS4 right now I'd be excited to play it, and that's overlooking the whole "no CASt" (but that's my personal grievance).
Furthermore, I think everything you mentioned can actually be implemented into the game. Everything sounds very conducive to the game engine and emotions system (especially the tier's). To me this almost makes me upset because it's so attainable. You mentioned so many tweaks that could make this game great - and that's just dealing with death! Bravo!
Additionally,
I've never been a deviant player growing up playing the Sims. So, especially in Sims 2, when the running joke was taking the pool ladders out of the pool or boxing your Sim in a room to die I always felt kind of sad/angered. I get so attached to the Sims I make. When my friends came over to play that's all they wanted to do (kill Sims) so I kind of sat back in a huff wondering why they found it so fun.
Older now, playing by myself, I get that some people want to do that and I respect their way of simming. Do your thing. But for me, I think I've only killed a Sim of mine intentionally under 5 times. So it's so disheartening when I started making my Sim in TS4 and had a whole story planned out and what kind of Sim she would be and what she would achieve only to be flustered and confused by the emotions and ultimately bored by the repetitive task-oriented game-play, and eventually wanting the darn thing to die. Oh how the tables have turned...
@allison18 Thank you for your thoughtful feedback! I am glad you felt what I said shines a light on a basic issue with the game; that was what I was hoping for! I don't see this (what I call 'the empathy issue') as being insurmountable, or impossible to fix. I wanted to narrow my focus to one tangible issue and try to come up with a potential solution that would make sense within the confines of the current game. That being said I'm no game designer, but I did try to consider the capabilities of the engine when coming up with solutions. It's so tempting to just say "I want it to be better!" But what exactly does that mean, and realistically, what would that look like in this game?
Anything we're gonna get in a life simulator, no matter what company it is, or what team, or what their budget looks like, it's never going to be truly realistic. The issue is finding a compromise within the game's parameters that doesn't loose the heart of what life is all about. I feel like they've missed the mark this time around. I hope they keep looking for solutions, because to me, they seem attainable.
I especially support the tier 1 / tier 2 emotions idea - no amount of 'I had a lovely shower' or 'this room is pretty' should be able to outweigh the death of a loved one - and your ideas about reminiscing about the deceased sim once the grief has passed are also great.
I currently have a mod in my game that makes the reactions to life changing events have higher emotional buffs, but I always consider mods only temporary fixes. I would like to see this addressed.
Loved your story about killing your plum sim XD Very much sums up TS4 emotions & reactions
Haven't had any issues with it at all
I have had a lot to say over the way my sims deaths are dealt with in a few different threads so I won't repeat myself... but I strongly believe they need to sort it out. It feels like a lazy and quick attempt to create something that can be so personal to a lot of people. Death should be approached delicately.
Having lost someone very very close to me I know that the deaths in TS4 has affected me more than it should but I can't help but be so disappointed.
@Shearsy sorry to hear you went through that, you have my sympathies. My grandmother passed earlier this year, she and I were very close and somehow I couldn't help thinking of the aftermath of her passing while playing this little encounter. I know it's a game and it's supposed to be 'light hearted' but it misses the mark so badly that it feels like a mockery to me. It belittles the entire concept of death and mourning. These aren't little villagers in some iphone rts; these are sims! The entire point of the franchise has always been to feel a connection to them, so to just pull the rug out from under us by making their deaths meaningless is just mind boggling to me.
What I would personally like is to have moodlet with a decreasing score over time. So for example on the first day, your Sim would be really sad (+25), then the next day still sad (+10) but a birthday party with good food, new friends or well decorated could distract your Sim temporarily, then the third day (+3) only sad when idle/not that much happening.
Thank you because your post made me realize it should be a 3 tier system not a 2 because I was thinking about sleep and how super low needs don't seem to wake them up:
tier 1: unimportant/incidental moodlets. Overwritten by...
tier 2: important milestone event moodlets like deaths, births, divorce etc. (Sleep would also be on this level at a very high value, +10000 as it is now is just fine.) Overwritten by...
tier 3: Need related moodlets that represent an immediate threat to the sim. (like being on fire, or being about to pee themselves, or starve to death.)
+Alarm system for birth/death to ensure sleeping sims are woken and receive appropriate moodlets.
It doesn't have to be done in a complicated way, though! This tier system could be implemented by simply adding +20 to all the stuff that should be tier 2, and +40 to tier 3. That would amount to the same thing, just without the game recognizing official 'tier' titles, which is what I think you were suggesting. I'd be fine with that! I'm not suggesting that they change how moodlets work entirely, it's perfectly acceptable to create the tiers using the existing system, and consistent numbers, plus the addition of an alarm effect when a death/birth/critical need failure is occurring.
I like your idea of decreasing moodlet scores!