Seems like they sneaked in they/them pronouns in every neighbour story message that I've seen. Ugh, I hate it. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually want to replace every gendered pronoun with they/them in the future. Make the game inclusive to the few people who use other pronouns by excluding the rest of the world. Seems legit.
Where is the best place to give feedback about stuff like this?
These forums probably. Maybe Answer HQ but it is not really meant for feedback regarding the direction of the game. Although I have seen reports of design decisions like the constant "A-ha" autonomy reactions that sims are doing in the game (which is a design decision, not a bug) and they did patch that.
I agree, the game just saying "they" in this context doesn't really work for me. It should be what Liberty Lee identifies herself as, not a gender neutral pronoun. So unless you went into CAS and changed her so she identifies as gender neutral I think the game should say he/she.
They should add options for us, not take away them.
Liberty Lee is not a real person. She doesn't "identify" as anything. If Maxis wanted to give her a specific identity down the line then yes it should reflect in her pronouns (altho really, pronouns are a choice regardless of identity. Some nonbinaries use she/her and he/him while some stick to they/them).
But using "they" as singular is perfectly fine. Maybe a little awkward for some because our culture/language is so heavily binary for years. But in general, they has always been fine to use as singular and is often used when you DON'T know the gender/pronouns of the person your speaking to and it's kind of a "safeguard" as it is gender neutral.
I have a theory, and it may be wrong so fair warning. But a lot of folks have commented on the gender neutral pronouns recently in the game and are concerned that it will be ONLY gender neutral because of it, but I'm 99% sure that's wrong and it means the opposite. I recall way back that there was this belief/sentiment/idea that adding pronouns to the game would essentially be a ton of work and you'd have to rehaul the text system entirely or that was just a lot of work.
Assuming that's true, my guess is that they are probably changing a lot of the text to where the pronoun (the word in the game text) itself is flagged (like a sim's name is flagged in code so it appears in game). That way, when the option for pronouns is set up, whichever one you choose will appear in the text. Ex: "(Sim name) loves summer. (Pronoun) enjoys splashing in the ocean's waves the most." Of course, in game it will read "Sally loves Summer. She enjoys splashing in the ocean's waves the most."
The fact they changed some of the gendered pronouns to they/them for some game text is probably evidence that they're in the process of whittling down excess text from the old system (maybe streamlining it?) and preparing for the new rehauled-system. The "they" in the dialogue is probably a temporary filler pronoun until the full pronouns system is properly embedded (Including she/her and he/him). Which makes sense cause they is gender neutral. Streamlining the Neighborhood text cards to "they" as a filler prior to the Pronouns Update being added to the game also makes sense as that is less work for them to do down the line to create it in line with the new system at launch versus having to go back and tweak it. And changing old game text to 'they' in small batches is (I believe) a better way to do updates (release them in smaller increments over time, especially if you're trying to catch errors) but I could be wrong.
Now I am probably speaking out of my butt when it comes to the details (cause I know very little on coding or this game's coding). But regardless I can only imagine it's just a temporarily filler until the full pronoun system comes in. Because real talk, there is no point to saying you are implementing pronouns in your game if you're only to use just one. If she/he doesn't show up in the dialogue when the options for pronouns gets here; then its all worthless. The whole point is for they/them users to be included and distinct(ly not binary); not to ostracize everyone else. Doing all the rewriting work for a free update to just alienate a lot of people and disappoint everyone is silly.
The only problem I can see arising is whether sims in existing playing files (before the patch) will be automatically assigned he/she based on their gender or if they'll all be assigned 'they' and you'd have to manually go into CAS to change it (which, while tedious, isn't that hard and new saves will likely have them properly assigned for pre-mades). Personally, I imagine "he/she" will be the default but it could go either way.
I can understand folks being concerned because this game doesn't have the best track record for many things, but I feel like there is a whole lot of jumping to conclusions going on. I could be wrong about my assumptions and it's certainly in the realm of possibility that they could use "they" as a blanket pronoun across the board but its too soon to judge what they haven't even revealed yet.
Entertainment is inseparable from social and political purposes
even if thats true which I don't think it is it doesn't make it any less crap when people bring politics in to things
Entertainment is suppose to help you forget about your troubles not remind you of them at all times.
I want all politics out of my Entertainment we aren't even allowed to talk about political things on here because people start fighting
I don't think someone wanting to be called something else should be considered political if you want to be called they then fine
but I don't want to be called that none of this should be an issue.
The idea that entertainment is supposed to be an escape is itself a belief/position (however you want to put it). Whether we want to call it a social or politically defined thing, it doesn't just come out of nowhere. Some documentaries, for example, could be considered a form of entertainment, while also providing real information. So I don't think it can be said that escaping reality is fundamental to entertainment, it's just something that people often want out of it.
I realize this could come across as needlessly pedantic, but I'm trying to put into context what I said before, that these are so often choices somewhere along the line, sometimes explicitly enforced, sometimes not, but choices nonetheless (e.g. just because we view this or that as normal doesn't mean it is everywhere or always was). It's the same with the idea that we aren't allowed to talk about "political things" (which probably means voting, reps, and stuff related to that for the most part and that in itself is saying something about what they think politics begins and ends with). And if it was only about fighting, people fight a lot about the game itself and their opinions of it. So if the goal was to prevent all fighting, it'd probably be a good idea to just not allow talking about the game (I'm being a little tongue in cheek there, trying to have a sense of humor about it, but again, trying to make a point too).
That said, I agree this particular thing shouldn't be an issue to begin with. Ideally, they would have just programmed in a nonbinary possibility from the start and let people set the pronouns of a sim or something.
Entertainment is inseparable from social and political purposes
even if thats true which I don't think it is it doesn't make it any less crap when people bring politics in to things
Entertainment is suppose to help you forget about your troubles not remind you of them at all times.
I want all politics out of my Entertainment we aren't even allowed to talk about political things on here because people start fighting
I don't think someone wanting to be called something else should be considered political if you want to be called they then fine
but I don't want to be called that none of this should be an issue.
The idea that entertainment is supposed to be an escape is itself a belief/position (however you want to put it). Whether we want to call it a social or politically defined thing, it doesn't just come out of nowhere. Some documentaries, for example, could be considered a form of entertainment, while also providing real information. So I don't think it can be said that escaping reality is fundamental to entertainment, it's just something that people often want out of it.
I realize this could come across as needlessly pedantic, but I'm trying to put into context what I said before, that these are so often choices somewhere along the line, sometimes explicitly enforced, sometimes not, but choices nonetheless (e.g. just because we view this or that as normal doesn't mean it is everywhere or always was). It's the same with the idea that we aren't allowed to talk about "political things" (which probably means voting, reps, and stuff related to that for the most part and that in itself is saying something about what they think politics begins and ends with). And if it was only about fighting, people fight a lot about the game itself and their opinions of it. So if the goal was to prevent all fighting, it'd probably be a good idea to just not allow talking about the game (I'm being a little tongue in cheek there, trying to have a sense of humor about it, but again, trying to make a point too).
That said, I agree this particular thing shouldn't be an issue to begin with. Ideally, they would have just programmed in a nonbinary possibility from the start and let people set the pronouns of a sim or something.
I agree the option in cas would be nice. @Triplis and don't get me wrong I think ea is hoping for a reaction bad or good as
long as people talk about the game. I just wish people enjoying themselves was what they care about most because people need
that in there life and if it turns out that we get the option to pick what are sims are called that means they didn't tell us because they wanted us to talk about it and thats kind of mean to make people worry or to make others feel attacked because some people
are worried.
Seems like they sneaked in they/them pronouns in every neighbour story message that I've seen. Ugh, I hate it. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually want to replace every gendered pronoun with they/them in the future. Make the game inclusive to the few people who use other pronouns by excluding the rest of the world. Seems legit.
Where is the best place to give feedback about stuff like this?
These forums probably. Maybe Answer HQ but it is not really meant for feedback regarding the direction of the game. Although I have seen reports of design decisions like the constant "A-ha" autonomy reactions that sims are doing in the game (which is a design decision, not a bug) and they did patch that.
I agree, the game just saying "they" in this context doesn't really work for me. It should be what Liberty Lee identifies herself as, not a gender neutral pronoun. So unless you went into CAS and changed her so she identifies as gender neutral I think the game should say he/she.
They should add options for us, not take away them.
Liberty Lee is not a real person. She doesn't "identify" as anything. If Maxis wanted to give her a specific identity down the line then yes it should reflect in her pronouns (altho really, pronouns are a choice regardless of identity. Some nonbinaries use she/her and he/him while some stick to they/them).
But using "they" as singular is perfectly fine. Maybe a little awkward for some because our culture/language is so heavily binary for years. But in general, they has always been fine to use as singular and is often used when you DON'T know the gender/pronouns of the person your speaking to and it's kind of a "safeguard" as it is gender neutral.
I have a theory, and it may be wrong so fair warning. But a lot of folks have commented on the gender neutral pronouns recently in the game and are concerned that it will be ONLY gender neutral because of it, but I'm 99% sure that's wrong and it means the opposite. I recall way back that there was this belief/sentiment/idea that adding pronouns to the game would essentially be a ton of work and you'd have to rehaul the text system entirely or that was just a lot of work.
Assuming that's true, my guess is that they are probably changing a lot of the text to where the pronoun (the word in the game text) itself is flagged (like a sim's name is flagged in code so it appears in game). That way, when the option for pronouns is set up, whichever one you choose will appear in the text. Ex: "(Sim name) loves summer. (Pronoun) enjoys splashing in the ocean's waves the most." Of course, in game it will read "Sally loves Summer. She enjoys splashing in the ocean's waves the most."
The fact they changed some of the gendered pronouns to they/them for some game text is probably evidence that they're in the process of whittling down excess text from the old system (maybe streamlining it?) and preparing for the new rehauled-system. The "they" in the dialogue is probably a temporary filler pronoun until the full pronouns system is properly embedded (Including she/her and he/him). Which makes sense cause they is gender neutral. Streamlining the Neighborhood text cards to "they" as a filler prior to the Pronouns Update being added to the game also makes sense as that is less work for them to do down the line to create it in line with the new system at launch versus having to go back and tweak it. And changing old game text to 'they' in small batches is (I believe) a better way to do updates (release them in smaller increments over time, especially if you're trying to catch errors) but I could be wrong.
Now I am probably speaking out of my butt when it comes to the details (cause I know very little on coding or this game's coding). But regardless I can only imagine it's just a temporarily filler until the full pronoun system comes in. Because real talk, there is no point to saying you are implementing pronouns in your game if you're only to use just one. If she/he doesn't show up in the dialogue when the options for pronouns gets here; then its all worthless. The whole point is for they/them users to be included and distinct(ly not binary); not to ostracize everyone else. Doing all the rewriting work for a free update to just alienate a lot of people and disappoint everyone is silly.
The only problem I can see arising is whether sims in existing playing files (before the patch) will be automatically assigned he/she based on their gender or if they'll all be assigned 'they' and you'd have to manually go into CAS to change it (which, while tedious, isn't that hard and new saves will likely have them properly assigned for pre-mades). Personally, I imagine "he/she" will be the default but it could go either way.
I can understand folks being concerned because this game doesn't have the best track record for many things, but I feel like there is a whole lot of jumping to conclusions going on. I could be wrong about my assumptions and it's certainly in the realm of possibility that they could use "they" as a blanket pronoun across the board but its too soon to judge what they haven't even revealed yet.
I will try to sum it up in parts. There is a lot that I have said here, and I know people have strong feelings about this. I got nothing against gender neutral pronouns, but this has several red flags all over it.
1. The game right now refers to every sim as M0 and F0 in the code (he/she) so Liberty Lee is either a M0 or F0 that's selected in CAS in the game, that's just how it is. Mila Munch in this context asking Summer "Should I get to know Liberty Lee a little better? They seem like good company." is not using M0 or F0 in this message, they removed that and it is saying they instead. This is what people are concerned about, that the game is no longer going to use M0 and F0 in messages.
2. If you want the game to use a third pronoun that doesn't have gender (let's call it G0). Like the people wanted in the survey. There is a chance that they would have to go back and add G0 everywhere where they have written M0 and F0 during 7 years of coding. Which is a lot of work.
3. They also have to consult with language experts, because the game supports 18 languages, which would lead to them also having to double the messages in many cases because you can't just replace He/She with They in several languages.
These are valid concerns that I have, and I believe I have the right to question Maxis how they are gonna do it. This is a life simulator that should give us options, not remove them. But as I have listed, adding options will be a lot of work.
My suggestions:
Add G0 and see if it works, then update some major messages (like promotions etc.) so it supports G0. But I am no programmer, I don't know how difficult this will be, for all that I know we are talking about the effort of one expansion pack, or 10.
Add a third option, gender neutral in CAS, which will make the game use G0 in messages that are updated, otherwise it will use M0 or F0.
Rewrite some messages so G0 works with different languages. Then you can make future packs support it and also maybe go back and update some more base game messages as you see necessary.
Don't go through the whole 7 years of code, if the game doesn't find G0 in the code, then it should use M0 and F0 instead, then you can update it over time.
Don't remove M0 and F0 from messages in the game. Add G0 instead.
And when you are making the sims5, make gender a variable instead. Then it can be whatever the player wants.
I hope they don't just change every pronoun text to non-binary. My played sims are always he/him or she/her.
I'm concerned because the recent packs had some of the text already non-gendered which irritates me, because to me "they/them" is referring to a group of people, not a single person.
I have no problem with it being added to the game for those that want it, but I don't want to be forced to ONLY having non-gendered pronouns.
Hopefully EA will be "inclusive" to EVERYONE.
I agree with this. I personally don't use pronouns in real life and therefore don't play my game that way. Fair play to those who do and I'm glad that this is coming for them. I'd like to see it become optional though when it does come in game.
Wait, what do you mean you "personally don't use pronouns in real life"? You just used the pronouns "I", "them", and "it" in your comment. You don't use the pronouns "she", "he", or "you"?
That's what I meant to say, I tend to stay away from political ideology in real life, so I'm not really up to date with how it works-I'm sorry if I've caused any offence or come across as ignorant. It's also why I tend to refrain from posting in these kinds of topics.
But using "they" as singular is perfectly fine. Maybe a little awkward for some because our culture/language is so heavily binary for years. But in general, they has always been fine to use as singular and is often used when you DON'T know the gender/pronouns of the person your speaking to and it's kind of a "safeguard" as it is gender neutral.
Using “they” as singular when you don’t know the gender is perfectly fine. Using “they” for anyone as a blanket statement is perfectly fine. But to say it’s perfectly fine to use when the gender is known, like in the case of Liberty Lee, if that’s what you were saying - that’s an opinion. And I don’t agree.
What about the transmen and transwomen? If a transman created his sim with a male frame, expecting to be referred to as he/him, then the use of “they” could be hurtful to him.
If I’m out in public and someone refers to me as “they/them” I would probably wonder who that person was talking about because it’s obvious I identify as a woman. If someone said that about a transwoman, she might get upset and say, “It’s ma’am” or “I’m she/her”.
2. If you want the game to use a third pronoun that doesn't have gender (let's call it G0). Like the people wanted in the survey. You would have to go back and add G0 everywhere where they have written M0 and F0 during 7 years of coding.
Not only do they need to replace the pronoun in this example, but they also need to modify the verb. Liberty Lee as a “they” “seem” like good company. Liberty Lee as a “she” “seems” like good company.
If they commit to using “they/them” universally, they still have to go back and fix the gendered texts. If they add a pronoun one can select, they still have to edit the more recent texts.
I don’t know how it works, but changing a bunch of text strings seems like something an intern with a decent grasp on language could do, from any language, provided they were given some direction on how to handle it in each language. Determining those instructions sounds like the hard part for them since they haven’t gotten past the “research” step. Hopefully they’re including everyone in their research and don’t go the way of Animal Crossing NH English edition.
If I’m out in public and someone refers to me as “they/them” I would probably wonder who that person was talking about because it’s obvious I identify as a woman. If someone said that about a transwoman, she might get upset and say, “It’s ma’am” or “I’m she/her”.
2. If you want the game to use a third pronoun that doesn't have gender (let's call it G0). Like the people wanted in the survey. You would have to go back and add G0 everywhere where they have written M0 and F0 during 7 years of coding.
Not only do they need to replace the pronoun in this example, but they also need to modify the verb. Liberty Lee as a “they” “seem” like good company. Liberty Lee as a “she” “seems” like good company.
If they commit to using “they/them” universally, they still have to go back and fix the gendered texts. If they add a pronoun one can select, they still have to edit the more recent texts.
Yeah, the best way would probably be to add second messages that the game uses if you have selected gender neutral for that sim in CAS (For example Liberty Lee). Then they can adjust that message based on the language that the game is using. If you didn't select it then the game can use the same messages that it has used for 7 years. And for messages that are not updated the game will use the old messages as default.
Like you said in your post, having sims talking with gender neutral pronouns is complicated for many people. Some people want to identify themselves as he, others as she, others as they, etc.
I know I want my Bella Goth to be identified as a she, and Don Lothario as a he. But I don't mind if other players want them to be identified differently. As long as that is offered as a second message.
Entertainment is inseparable from social and political purposes and meaning. It arises from it and is influenced by it, there's no getting away from that. It's just corporate marketing tries very hard to do things in a way that can be perceived like they are rising above because they are afraid of losing customers, which maybe confuses some people into thinking the two can actually ever be separated.
This is a similar argument used by those in the knitting community who used knitting for political purposes. “Knitting is art, and every single piece of art ever made is a commentary on the politics of its time”... or something like that. Sometimes a sweater is just a sweater. Sometimes a painting is just a painting. You should see what happened in this global knitting community once the private site owner sided with one side and completely banned the other side. It wasn’t pretty and still isn’t. Hopefully EA/Maxis finds a way to satisfy everyone without taking sides.
EA probably need to start it in CAS.
You toggle on the gender a sim is born with and then toggle the gender they identify as, or non-binary.
And then the game assigns the appropriate pronouns in text boxes.
An Intersex choice will need to be added for all the variations in between male and female for those who don't want
to have to choose either because they are not accurate, but can select what they want to be identified as.
That would be for people to be satisfied that they are creating the sim that represents the sim they want to create.
But if you want to keep things simple there should be a binary/non-binary pronouns toggle.
They should also fix that mesh problem.
Just talking about this I went in and experimented with the gender settings. I just expanded the variations of my male sims by picking a feminine frame. However, the mesh seems a bit janky in the neck and stomach which makes me not want to use it.
If they are going to do this, they should go all in support everyone and not trade off the binaries being binary.
Seems like they sneaked in they/them pronouns in every neighbour story message that I've seen. Ugh, I hate it. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually want to replace every gendered pronoun with they/them in the future. Make the game inclusive to the few people who use other pronouns by excluding the rest of the world. Seems legit.
Where is the best place to give feedback about stuff like this?
These forums probably. Maybe Answer HQ but it is not really meant for feedback regarding the direction of the game. Although I have seen reports of design decisions like the constant "A-ha" autonomy reactions that sims are doing in the game (which is a design decision, not a bug) and they did patch that.
I agree, the game just saying "they" in this context doesn't really work for me. It should be what Liberty Lee identifies herself as, not a gender neutral pronoun. So unless you went into CAS and changed her so she identifies as gender neutral I think the game should say he/she.
They should add options for us, not take away them.
Liberty Lee is not a real person. She doesn't "identify" as anything. If Maxis wanted to give her a specific identity down the line then yes it should reflect in her pronouns (altho really, pronouns are a choice regardless of identity. Some nonbinaries use she/her and he/him while some stick to they/them).
But using "they" as singular is perfectly fine. Maybe a little awkward for some because our culture/language is so heavily binary for years. But in general, they has always been fine to use as singular and is often used when you DON'T know the gender/pronouns of the person your speaking to and it's kind of a "safeguard" as it is gender neutral.
I have a theory, and it may be wrong so fair warning. But a lot of folks have commented on the gender neutral pronouns recently in the game and are concerned that it will be ONLY gender neutral because of it, but I'm 99% sure that's wrong and it means the opposite. I recall way back that there was this belief/sentiment/idea that adding pronouns to the game would essentially be a ton of work and you'd have to rehaul the text system entirely or that was just a lot of work.
Assuming that's true, my guess is that they are probably changing a lot of the text to where the pronoun (the word in the game text) itself is flagged (like a sim's name is flagged in code so it appears in game). That way, when the option for pronouns is set up, whichever one you choose will appear in the text. Ex: "(Sim name) loves summer. (Pronoun) enjoys splashing in the ocean's waves the most." Of course, in game it will read "Sally loves Summer. She enjoys splashing in the ocean's waves the most."
The fact they changed some of the gendered pronouns to they/them for some game text is probably evidence that they're in the process of whittling down excess text from the old system (maybe streamlining it?) and preparing for the new rehauled-system. The "they" in the dialogue is probably a temporary filler pronoun until the full pronouns system is properly embedded (Including she/her and he/him). Which makes sense cause they is gender neutral. Streamlining the Neighborhood text cards to "they" as a filler prior to the Pronouns Update being added to the game also makes sense as that is less work for them to do down the line to create it in line with the new system at launch versus having to go back and tweak it. And changing old game text to 'they' in small batches is (I believe) a better way to do updates (release them in smaller increments over time, especially if you're trying to catch errors) but I could be wrong.
Now I am probably speaking out of my butt when it comes to the details (cause I know very little on coding or this game's coding). But regardless I can only imagine it's just a temporarily filler until the full pronoun system comes in. Because real talk, there is no point to saying you are implementing pronouns in your game if you're only to use just one. If she/he doesn't show up in the dialogue when the options for pronouns gets here; then its all worthless. The whole point is for they/them users to be included and distinct(ly not binary); not to ostracize everyone else. Doing all the rewriting work for a free update to just alienate a lot of people and disappoint everyone is silly.
The only problem I can see arising is whether sims in existing playing files (before the patch) will be automatically assigned he/she based on their gender or if they'll all be assigned 'they' and you'd have to manually go into CAS to change it (which, while tedious, isn't that hard and new saves will likely have them properly assigned for pre-mades). Personally, I imagine "he/she" will be the default but it could go either way.
I can understand folks being concerned because this game doesn't have the best track record for many things, but I feel like there is a whole lot of jumping to conclusions going on. I could be wrong about my assumptions and it's certainly in the realm of possibility that they could use "they" as a blanket pronoun across the board but its too soon to judge what they haven't even revealed yet.
I will try to sum it up in parts. There is a lot that I have said here, and I know people have strong feelings about this. I got nothing against gender neutral pronouns, but this has several red flags all over it.
1. The game right now refers to every sim as M0 and F0 in the code (he/she) so Liberty Lee is either a M0 or F0 that's selected in CAS in the game, that's just how it is. Mila Munch in this context asking Summer "Should I get to know Liberty Lee a little better? They seem like good company." is not using M0 or F0 in this message, they removed that and it is saying they instead. This is what people are concerned about, that the game is no longer going to use M0 and F0 in messages.
2. If you want the game to use a third pronoun that doesn't have gender (let's call it G0). Like the people wanted in the survey. There is a chance that they would have to go back and add G0 everywhere where they have written M0 and F0 during 7 years of coding. Which is a lot of work.
3. They also have to consult with language experts, because the game supports 18 languages, which would lead to them also having to double the messages in many cases because you can't just replace He/She with They in several languages.
These are valid concerns that I have, and I believe I have the right to question Maxis how they are gonna do it. This is a life simulator that should give us options, not remove them. But as I have listed, adding options will be a lot of work.
My suggestions:
Add G0 and see if it works, then update some major messages (like promotions etc.) so it supports G0. But I am no programmer, I don't know how difficult this will be, for all that I know we are talking about the effort of one expansion pack, or 10.
Add a third option, gender neutral in CAS, which will make the game use G0 in messages that are updated, otherwise it will use M0 or F0.
Rewrite some messages so G0 works with different languages. Then you can make future packs support it and also maybe go back and update some more base game messages as you see necessary.
Don't go through the whole 7 years of code, if the game doesn't find G0 in the code, then it should use M0 and F0 instead, then you can update it over time.
Don't remove M0 and F0 from messages in the game. Add G0 instead.
And when you are making the sims5, make gender a variable instead. Then it can be whatever the player wants.
Thank you for the detailed explanation! That helps a lot.
1.) While I agree that removing G0/M0 can be concerning in this context, I stand by my statement that it may a temporary step in adding pronouns to the game. Perhaps a bit convoluted/unnecessarily complicated but my understanding that the game's code is like a bowl of spaghetti (especially when you do consider how many pack variations a player has and glitches that arise from that). Or it's just straight up a genuine mistake (or something rushed) that was overlooked cause Maxis was more concerned about getting the small part of the Neighborhood Stories update to get feedback and seeing how it is received. I can only speculate cause Im not sure what their plan is in terms of implementing the pronoun system, but considering how much bugs/glitches we get on a good day with this game; it's perfectly possible that these are genuine errors cause they began fiddling with the code. Or it's a small step to adding something else. Idk.
2.) I agree that its a a lot of work. Whether that's worth the effort will boil down to opinion. But considering how much work they're doing in rehauling/adding a lot of things (NPC Overhaul, Neighborhood Stories/Story Progression, etc), it kind of makes sense and goes along with their seemingly goal of giving the game a new/updated look. Clearly Maxis is still invested in this game to justify such major changes this late even with Sims 5 development (likely?) in progress. As long as Sims 4 continues to make $$$ they'll keep milking the cow.
3.) Yes, for some languages the option of "they" or another third gender pronoun is not viable. The language is too binary (ex: in Spanish, all nouns are male or female.). For some languages, there has been movements to add gender neutral options but that takes time + is customed to the language it comes from.
I want to say it's perfectly fine to be skeptic and concerned. The Sims 4 is not a game with the best track record and has made many choices that are worth the criticism.
Your feedback is solid and I have no problems with it. I agree having the pronouns as variables is the smartest route to go about it (esp if they decide to add a neopronoun in the future, but I don't think they will. 'They' is pretty accepted cross the board). I don't know how viable your suggestions are in terms of implementation with Sims 4's game coding (+ whatever Maxis' plan for the new addition) but that's Maxis' job to figure out.
Keeping she/her and he/him as pronouns and adding they/them as an option is what those who've been pushing for pronouns (specifically they/them as gender neutral option) want. Yes, sometimes corporations go lazy routes for half-baked inclusivity to butter up their image but this iteration of Sims has been notably more on the mark for those sort of things or open to feedback & implementing changes (ignoring my frustrations with how messy/glitchy the 'cross-dress' options are). Especially if there are openly non-binary devs on the team (+ CIS gendered ones).
There may be a small select group of people who'd rather have universal 'they' over strictly binary 'she or he' (speaking about a petition that was linked in thread). This is likely brought up with the idea that it has to be "all or nothing" which it doesn't. It is perfectly possible to add pronoun options; just extra work.
For those who are upset about the removel of the she/he pronouns (F0/M0 variables) in some of the game text; that is your opinion which you are entitled to and are right to give (polite!!!! Remember devs are people.) feedback. But while I won't name specific users, there has been a lot of knee jerk-y reactions and a select few of straight up rude comments.
I hope they don't just change every pronoun text to non-binary. My played sims are always he/him or she/her.
I'm concerned because the recent packs had some of the text already non-gendered which irritates me, because to me "they/them" is referring to a group of people, not a single person.
I have no problem with it being added to the game for those that want it, but I don't want to be forced to ONLY having non-gendered pronouns.
Hopefully EA will be "inclusive" to EVERYONE.
I agree with this. I personally don't use pronouns in real life and therefore don't play my game that way. Fair play to those who do and I'm glad that this is coming for them. I'd like to see it become optional though when it does come in game.
Wait, what do you mean you "personally don't use pronouns in real life"? You just used the pronouns "I", "them", and "it" in your comment. You don't use the pronouns "she", "he", or "you"?
That's what I meant to say, I tend to stay away from political ideology in real life, so I'm not really up to date with how it works-I'm sorry if I've caused any offence or come across as ignorant. It's also why I tend to refrain from posting in these kinds of topics.
I wasn't offended, but my comment had nothing to do with political ideology. I was simply pointing out that using pronouns - I, you, she, he, they - is normal in everyday, real-life use of the English language. What folks are specifically concerned about in this thread are whether all Sims will be forced to use the gender-neutral pronouns, they/them/their.
Seems like they sneaked in they/them pronouns in every neighbour story message that I've seen. Ugh, I hate it. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually want to replace every gendered pronoun with they/them in the future. Make the game inclusive to the few people who use other pronouns by excluding the rest of the world. Seems legit.
Where is the best place to give feedback about stuff like this?
These forums probably. Maybe Answer HQ but it is not really meant for feedback regarding the direction of the game. Although I have seen reports of design decisions like the constant "A-ha" autonomy reactions that sims are doing in the game (which is a design decision, not a bug) and they did patch that.
I agree, the game just saying "they" in this context doesn't really work for me. It should be what Liberty Lee identifies herself as, not a gender neutral pronoun. So unless you went into CAS and changed her so she identifies as gender neutral I think the game should say he/she.
They should add options for us, not take away them.
Liberty Lee is not a real person. She doesn't "identify" as anything. If Maxis wanted to give her a specific identity down the line then yes it should reflect in her pronouns (altho really, pronouns are a choice regardless of identity. Some nonbinaries use she/her and he/him while some stick to they/them).
But using "they" as singular is perfectly fine. Maybe a little awkward for some because our culture/language is so heavily binary for years. But in general, they has always been fine to use as singular and is often used when you DON'T know the gender/pronouns of the person your speaking to and it's kind of a "safeguard" as it is gender neutral.
I have a theory, and it may be wrong so fair warning. But a lot of folks have commented on the gender neutral pronouns recently in the game and are concerned that it will be ONLY gender neutral because of it, but I'm 99% sure that's wrong and it means the opposite. I recall way back that there was this belief/sentiment/idea that adding pronouns to the game would essentially be a ton of work and you'd have to rehaul the text system entirely or that was just a lot of work.
Assuming that's true, my guess is that they are probably changing a lot of the text to where the pronoun (the word in the game text) itself is flagged (like a sim's name is flagged in code so it appears in game). That way, when the option for pronouns is set up, whichever one you choose will appear in the text. Ex: "(Sim name) loves summer. (Pronoun) enjoys splashing in the ocean's waves the most." Of course, in game it will read "Sally loves Summer. She enjoys splashing in the ocean's waves the most."
The fact they changed some of the gendered pronouns to they/them for some game text is probably evidence that they're in the process of whittling down excess text from the old system (maybe streamlining it?) and preparing for the new rehauled-system. The "they" in the dialogue is probably a temporary filler pronoun until the full pronouns system is properly embedded (Including she/her and he/him). Which makes sense cause they is gender neutral. Streamlining the Neighborhood text cards to "they" as a filler prior to the Pronouns Update being added to the game also makes sense as that is less work for them to do down the line to create it in line with the new system at launch versus having to go back and tweak it. And changing old game text to 'they' in small batches is (I believe) a better way to do updates (release them in smaller increments over time, especially if you're trying to catch errors) but I could be wrong.
Now I am probably speaking out of my butt when it comes to the details (cause I know very little on coding or this game's coding). But regardless I can only imagine it's just a temporarily filler until the full pronoun system comes in. Because real talk, there is no point to saying you are implementing pronouns in your game if you're only to use just one. If she/he doesn't show up in the dialogue when the options for pronouns gets here; then its all worthless. The whole point is for they/them users to be included and distinct(ly not binary); not to ostracize everyone else. Doing all the rewriting work for a free update to just alienate a lot of people and disappoint everyone is silly.
The only problem I can see arising is whether sims in existing playing files (before the patch) will be automatically assigned he/she based on their gender or if they'll all be assigned 'they' and you'd have to manually go into CAS to change it (which, while tedious, isn't that hard and new saves will likely have them properly assigned for pre-mades). Personally, I imagine "he/she" will be the default but it could go either way.
I can understand folks being concerned because this game doesn't have the best track record for many things, but I feel like there is a whole lot of jumping to conclusions going on. I could be wrong about my assumptions and it's certainly in the realm of possibility that they could use "they" as a blanket pronoun across the board but its too soon to judge what they haven't even revealed yet.
I will try to sum it up in parts. There is a lot that I have said here, and I know people have strong feelings about this. I got nothing against gender neutral pronouns, but this has several red flags all over it.
1. The game right now refers to every sim as M0 and F0 in the code (he/she) so Liberty Lee is either a M0 or F0 that's selected in CAS in the game, that's just how it is. Mila Munch in this context asking Summer "Should I get to know Liberty Lee a little better? They seem like good company." is not using M0 or F0 in this message, they removed that and it is saying they instead. This is what people are concerned about, that the game is no longer going to use M0 and F0 in messages.
2. If you want the game to use a third pronoun that doesn't have gender (let's call it G0). Like the people wanted in the survey. There is a chance that they would have to go back and add G0 everywhere where they have written M0 and F0 during 7 years of coding. Which is a lot of work.
3. They also have to consult with language experts, because the game supports 18 languages, which would lead to them also having to double the messages in many cases because you can't just replace He/She with They in several languages.
These are valid concerns that I have, and I believe I have the right to question Maxis how they are gonna do it. This is a life simulator that should give us options, not remove them. But as I have listed, adding options will be a lot of work.
My suggestions:
Add G0 and see if it works, then update some major messages (like promotions etc.) so it supports G0. But I am no programmer, I don't know how difficult this will be, for all that I know we are talking about the effort of one expansion pack, or 10.
Add a third option, gender neutral in CAS, which will make the game use G0 in messages that are updated, otherwise it will use M0 or F0.
Rewrite some messages so G0 works with different languages. Then you can make future packs support it and also maybe go back and update some more base game messages as you see necessary.
Don't go through the whole 7 years of code, if the game doesn't find G0 in the code, then it should use M0 and F0 instead, then you can update it over time.
Don't remove M0 and F0 from messages in the game. Add G0 instead.
And when you are making the sims5, make gender a variable instead. Then it can be whatever the player wants.
Thank you for the detailed explanation! That helps a lot.
1.) While I agree that removing G0/M0 can be concerning in this context, I stand by my statement that it may a temporary step in adding pronouns to the game. Perhaps a bit convoluted/unnecessarily complicated but my understanding that the game's code is like a bowl of spaghetti (especially when you do consider how many pack variations a player has and glitches that arise from that). Or it's just straight up a genuine mistake (or something rushed) that was overlooked cause Maxis was more concerned about getting the small part of the Neighborhood Stories update to get feedback and seeing how it is received. I can only speculate cause Im not sure what their plan is in terms of implementing the pronoun system, but considering how much bugs/glitches we get on a good day with this game; it's perfectly possible that these are genuine errors cause they began fiddling with the code. Or it's a small step to adding something else. Idk.
2.) I agree that its a a lot of work. Whether that's worth the effort will boil down to opinion. But considering how much work they're doing in rehauling/adding a lot of things (NPC Overhaul, Neighborhood Stories/Story Progression, etc), it kind of makes sense and goes along with their seemingly goal of giving the game a new/updated look. Clearly Maxis is still invested in this game to justify such major changes this late even with Sims 5 development (likely?) in progress. As long as Sims 4 continues to make $$$ they'll keep milking the cow.
3.) Yes, for some languages the option of "they" or another third gender pronoun is not viable. The language is too binary (ex: in Spanish, all nouns are male or female.). For some languages, there has been movements to add gender neutral options but that takes time + is customed to the language it comes from.
I want to say it's perfectly fine to be skeptic and concerned. The Sims 4 is not a game with the best track record and has made many choices that are worth the criticism.
Your feedback is solid and I have no problems with it. I agree having the pronouns as variables is the smartest route to go about it (esp if they decide to add a neopronoun in the future, but I don't think they will. 'They' is pretty accepted cross the board). I don't know how viable your suggestions are in terms of implementation with Sims 4's game coding (+ whatever Maxis' plan for the new addition) but that's Maxis' job to figure out.
Keeping she/her and he/him as pronouns and adding they/them as an option is what those who've been pushing for pronouns (specifically they/them as gender neutral option) want. Yes, sometimes corporations go lazy routes for half-baked inclusivity to butter up their image but this iteration of Sims has been notably more on the mark for those sort of things or open to feedback & implementing changes (ignoring my frustrations with how messy/glitchy the 'cross-dress' options are). Especially if there are openly non-binary devs on the team (+ CIS gendered ones).
There may be a small select group of people who'd rather have universal 'they' over strictly binary 'she or he' (speaking about a petition that was linked in thread). This is likely brought up with the idea that it has to be "all or nothing" which it doesn't. It is perfectly possible to add pronoun options; just extra work.
For those who are upset about the removel of the she/he pronouns (F0/M0 variables) in some of the game text; that is your opinion which you are entitled to and are right to give (polite!!!! Remember devs are people.) feedback. But while I won't name specific users, there has been a lot of knee 🎁🎁🎁🎁-y reactions and a select few of straight up rude comments.
That's what can happen when you talk about things like this... I am not interested in conflict, I just want to discuss possibilities.
My suggestion as I posted before is to probably add second messages that the game will say if the player has enabled gender neutral pronouns for their sims in the game (in CAS or in the game options). That way Maxis can update messages over time, and the player can choose how they want it. Maxis doesn't have to update everything at once because the game will use the old messages if it doesn't find any updated message when the player has enabled gender neutral pronouns.
But I'm not sure how difficult that would be to do. It depends how much money Maxis wants to put into this. Letting all messages from now on use gender neutral pronouns is a cheaper solution but I feel that won't be a good solution for the players who wanted the game to have gender neutral pronouns for all messages in the game, or for the people who wanted to have a choice.
Entertainment is inseparable from social and political purposes and meaning. It arises from it and is influenced by it, there's no getting away from that. It's just corporate marketing tries very hard to do things in a way that can be perceived like they are rising above because they are afraid of losing customers, which maybe confuses some people into thinking the two can actually ever be separated.
This is a similar argument used by those in the knitting community who used knitting for political purposes. “Knitting is art, and every single piece of art ever made is a commentary on the politics of its time”... or something like that. Sometimes a sweater is just a sweater. Sometimes a painting is just a painting. You should see what happened in this global knitting community once the private site owner sided with one side and completely banned the other side. It wasn’t pretty and still isn’t. Hopefully EA/Maxis finds a way to satisfy everyone without taking sides.
Just sounds like your experience with that community affirms what I said, not contradicts it. Banning everybody who disagrees is obviously a pretty drastic and probably pointlessly combative way to handle some ideological disagreements in a knitting community, but at the same time, pretending the conflict isn't there wouldn't have made it go away. I hesitate to generalize conflict too broadly, but I would say the issue isn't finding a way to do things without taking sides, it's finding a way to resolve whatever conflict there is with the least amount of damage done and the most gratifying (and hopefully fair) solution. Whether we will get such a solution in this case if we get one at all, I don't know. Though this game hasn't always done the best job with features in general, they did do the clothing and frame thing to support people who are not heteronormative (for lack of a better word, my terminology is failing me a bit here, apologies to anyone who may find it poorly representative of the issue).
So anyway, yeah, I will defend the point about how inseparable these things are not cause it's my opinion or something, but because I'm pretty confident it's factually true and acknowledging it matters when, like in the context I was responding to, people start saying that things are "getting political" and they want it out of their entertainment, when usually what they mean is something like: "I disagree with this ideologically and don't want it in my game but admitting that would mean I have to say why and I'm not prepared to defend myself," or "this is bringing up a hot button sociopolitical issue I don't want to think about and that's upsetting." I would like it to be clear on what is actually going on there because when people don't say what they mean, or don't even know what they mean, well then it's easy for a person or two to come in and start inflaming tensions over things that haven't even been said, meant, or done. Clarity won't make conflict go away instantaneously, but conflict sure can't be resolved without it.
Entertainment is inseparable from social and political purposes and meaning. It arises from it and is influenced by it, there's no getting away from that. It's just corporate marketing tries very hard to do things in a way that can be perceived like they are rising above because they are afraid of losing customers, which maybe confuses some people into thinking the two can actually ever be separated.
This is a similar argument used by those in the knitting community who used knitting for political purposes. “Knitting is art, and every single piece of art ever made is a commentary on the politics of its time”... or something like that. Sometimes a sweater is just a sweater. Sometimes a painting is just a painting. You should see what happened in this global knitting community once the private site owner sided with one side and completely banned the other side. It wasn’t pretty and still isn’t. Hopefully EA/Maxis finds a way to satisfy everyone without taking sides.
I didnt know this was a thing. Good god. I just want the Sims to be about the SIMS. Who knew this would be controversial 💀
The Sims has currently lost its identity. Bring it back for TS5
Entertainment is inseparable from social and political purposes and meaning. It arises from it and is influenced by it, there's no getting away from that. It's just corporate marketing tries very hard to do things in a way that can be perceived like they are rising above because they are afraid of losing customers, which maybe confuses some people into thinking the two can actually ever be separated.
This is a similar argument used by those in the knitting community who used knitting for political purposes. “Knitting is art, and every single piece of art ever made is a commentary on the politics of its time”... or something like that. Sometimes a sweater is just a sweater. Sometimes a painting is just a painting. You should see what happened in this global knitting community once the private site owner sided with one side and completely banned the other side. It wasn’t pretty and still isn’t. Hopefully EA/Maxis finds a way to satisfy everyone without taking sides.
Just sounds like your experience with that community affirms what I said, not contradicts it. Banning everybody who disagrees is obviously a pretty drastic and probably pointlessly combative way to handle some ideological disagreements in a knitting community, but at the same time, pretending the conflict isn't there wouldn't have made it go away. I hesitate to generalize conflict too broadly, but I would say the issue isn't finding a way to do things without taking sides, it's finding a way to resolve whatever conflict there is with the least amount of damage done and the most gratifying (and hopefully fair) solution. Whether we will get such a solution in this case if we get one at all, I don't know. Though this game hasn't always done the best job with features in general, they did do the clothing and frame thing to support people who are not heteronormative (for lack of a better word, my terminology is failing me a bit here, apologies to anyone who may find it poorly representative of the issue).
So anyway, yeah, I will defend the point about how inseparable these things are not cause it's my opinion or something, but because I'm pretty confident it's factually true and acknowledging it matters when, like in the context I was responding to, people start saying that things are "getting political" and they want it out of their entertainment, when usually what they mean is something like: "I disagree with this ideologically and don't want it in my game but admitting that would mean I have to say why and I'm not prepared to defend myself," or "this is bringing up a hot button sociopolitical issue I don't want to think about and that's upsetting." I would like it to be clear on what is actually going on there because when people don't say what they mean, or don't even know what they mean, well then it's easy for a person or two to come in and start inflaming tensions over things that haven't even been said, meant, or done. Clarity won't make conflict go away instantaneously, but conflict sure can't be resolved without it.
I don’t think we disagree, really. I just saw where people brought politics into knitting and the two extremes were fighting so intensely while those of us in the middle were just like... can we just knit and let everyone be free to express themselves the way they want? This is the parallel I’m drawing with our pronoun debate because I think most of us want pronoun options for all. I agree that there may be no way of separating art from politics but the point I was trying to make is that EA/Maxis has the opportunity to take sides here, and so far their use of nonbinary pronouns had made it look like they are taking a side. We know they are in the midst of further change and we don’t know what that means, we can only speculate based on their actions so far. But if they give options for all, I don’t want think that would be taking a side.
When the knitting community became one-sided in that global environment I described, it emboldened them to bully and harass people - even those who hadn’t declared their position on things. I would hate to see that kind of thing happen within this community - it’s bad enough out here. 😬
Entertainment is inseparable from social and political purposes
even if thats true which I don't think it is it doesn't make it any less crap when people bring politics in to things
Entertainment is suppose to help you forget about your troubles not remind you of them at all times.
I want all politics out of my Entertainment we aren't even allowed to talk about political things on here because people start fighting
I don't think someone wanting to be called something else should be considered political if you want to be called they then fine
but I don't want to be called that none of this should be an issue.
Entertainment is inseparable from social and political purposes and meaning. It arises from it and is influenced by it, there's no getting away from that. It's just corporate marketing tries very hard to do things in a way that can be perceived like they are rising above because they are afraid of losing customers, which maybe confuses some people into thinking the two can actually ever be separated.
This is a similar argument used by those in the knitting community who used knitting for political purposes. “Knitting is art, and every single piece of art ever made is a commentary on the politics of its time”... or something like that. Sometimes a sweater is just a sweater. Sometimes a painting is just a painting. You should see what happened in this global knitting community once the private site owner sided with one side and completely banned the other side. It wasn’t pretty and still isn’t. Hopefully EA/Maxis finds a way to satisfy everyone without taking sides.
I'm not here to argue with these quotes directly, but this topic made me think a lot and I kind of wanted to discuss it (feel free to ignore).
First, some clarification. Is the inclusion of pronouns (specifically gender neutral ones such as 'they') in the game "political?" The definition of that word is "relating to the government or the public affairs of a country." Sims 4 is not tied to any government nor does it make laws, remove laws, or have any influence on any government decisions. So, no.
A lot of people like to throw around the word politics/political and claim something is that when in reality--it might not be. It may be related to political movements distantly, and it is certainly SOCIAL change but it's not politics. Is it influenced by politics? Ultimately, yes. But that is because is entertainment/art; which both are influenced by the beliefs of whoever made it which are influenced by the culture that/those person(s) grew up in which social and political things are a significant, integral part.
Art is an expression of a person's beliefs in a creative manner. How we perceive the world influences what we create. Culture influences art, art influences culture (and their values). Their intertwined.
On the surface level a painting is a painting; but there is more to it. There are so many things that come to influence a painting. What do we constitute as art? What makes a painting a painting? What makes it worthy for being 'art' (or people's time)? Who gets to paint? Who doesn't? How people are depicted in art can sometimes reflect the artist's standard of beauty (or at least perception of people/groups). Even if all someone is doing is painting a tree they are still doing that in the belief that doing so would give them joy and is worth the time/effort (or find nature pretty, idk). Painting in particular in history has been 100% historically tied to political movements (certain styles).
A person painting a tree is not going to have the same amount of social/political influence as someone who painted a battle scene or a protest march but it's still there, even if it's microscopic.
In the example of knitting, I'd argue that it is influenced by politics just like every art is on some level. Even if the person knitting isn't actively engaging in expressing political ideologies in their craft; their crafts are still affected by their perceptions/ideologies even if on a very tiny level. What they deem acceptable/worth making, "what makes a sweater a sweater," etc.
Also, to clarify: the situation that is being referred to in the knitting debate didn't have people banned because they disagreed whether or not knitting itself is a political act. Content (forum posts + knitting crafts) associated with a particular political party (and a certain politician) was banned from the site and some people were upset (and possibly death threats involved, I'm not sure). This sparked up the debate about whether knitting was a space for political discussions, and it was argued that knitting was always political (which, historically it has been used as political protests and whatnot). The decision allegedly was made because the banned content in question was deemed associated with hate groups or hateful content and they wanted to provide a safe space/inclusive environment.
Note: I am NOT here to state my opinion on this decision nor do I care what anyone else's is as that is directly a political discussion which is against the rules. The reason I bring it up is cause I feel like the context is important. People weren't banned because they disagreed whether or not they viewed knitting as political itself, they were banned because the owner of the (private!) site banned content that was deemed (essentially) inappropriate by the owner of the site. Google "knitting political" and the first thing is an article related to the topic and you can read it yourself or probably find other articles on it.
~~
I think when people say they don't like politics in their games; they mean they don't like having their views challenged or be reminded that there are beliefs that conflict with theirs. Because when people have different ideas of what is right, what is wrong, what is acceptable, what is not; it's going to come to a head and it's not always in a peaceful manner. But that's life.
People sometimes use games as an escapism, yes. But no art is ever completely devoid of political/social influence. Its just is that the game is not challenging your own beliefs enough and/or fits your perception of gives you comfort/conforms to your views (so much so you may not even recognize it as politically influenced).
Sims as a franchise has always had political influences, even if unintentionally or were choices not made actively to be political statements. Allowing same sex romance in a time where that was debated (s/s marriage wasn't legal, etc.) is tied to social/political change, even if not intentional. While its true corporations are capitalizing on the LGBT+ social movement, to be fair the Sims as a franchise has historically been LGBT friendly. The transgender and non-binary additions are not a surprise and shouldn't be one. Not to mention the Sims 4 specifically has a lot of pro-environmental undertones and has two packs related to it.
Culture and people's perceptions/beliefs are constantly changing and that can create a lot of anxiety. People generally don't like their worldviews challenged. There is nothing wrong with wanting to escape to comfort and enjoy entertainment that doesn't challenge you too hard or remind you of things that give you discomfort. But you can't ever 'escape' truly; you just choose to engage in someone else's regurgitated expression of reality (which is influenced by their beliefs which directly tie into the world they live in).
Adding pronouns (specifically gender neutral) as an option is not something that is political and SHOULDN'T be an issue but because the very notion challenges our culture's concept of gender and actively goes against the binary man/woman social roles that people were raised to believe; some perceive that as a threat and make a big stink out of it. It happened with the trans patch/cross dressing patch, as well as the addition of hijab and it'll happen again. And I'm not talking about the "swapping he/she out for they" additions (like in the Neighborhood Stories update) I'm talking about the addition of pronouns being available and selectable in a future patch.
~~
Anywho, this is mostly a post for me to ramble. But I do agree with @Triplis that art is inseparable from political/social influences and while there are certainly more politically-influenced medias than others; it's impossible to completely separate from oneself because everything is connected. I think the distinction of what is actually political vs what challenges/conflicts with our beliefs/perceptions is important.
Entertainment is inseparable from social and political purposes and meaning. It arises from it and is influenced by it, there's no getting away from that. It's just corporate marketing tries very hard to do things in a way that can be perceived like they are rising above because they are afraid of losing customers, which maybe confuses some people into thinking the two can actually ever be separated.
This is a similar argument used by those in the knitting community who used knitting for political purposes. “Knitting is art, and every single piece of art ever made is a commentary on the politics of its time”... or something like that. Sometimes a sweater is just a sweater. Sometimes a painting is just a painting. You should see what happened in this global knitting community once the private site owner sided with one side and completely banned the other side. It wasn’t pretty and still isn’t. Hopefully EA/Maxis finds a way to satisfy everyone without taking sides.
Just sounds like your experience with that community affirms what I said, not contradicts it. Banning everybody who disagrees is obviously a pretty drastic and probably pointlessly combative way to handle some ideological disagreements in a knitting community, but at the same time, pretending the conflict isn't there wouldn't have made it go away. I hesitate to generalize conflict too broadly, but I would say the issue isn't finding a way to do things without taking sides, it's finding a way to resolve whatever conflict there is with the least amount of damage done and the most gratifying (and hopefully fair) solution. Whether we will get such a solution in this case if we get one at all, I don't know. Though this game hasn't always done the best job with features in general, they did do the clothing and frame thing to support people who are not heteronormative (for lack of a better word, my terminology is failing me a bit here, apologies to anyone who may find it poorly representative of the issue).
So anyway, yeah, I will defend the point about how inseparable these things are not cause it's my opinion or something, but because I'm pretty confident it's factually true and acknowledging it matters when, like in the context I was responding to, people start saying that things are "getting political" and they want it out of their entertainment, when usually what they mean is something like: "I disagree with this ideologically and don't want it in my game but admitting that would mean I have to say why and I'm not prepared to defend myself," or "this is bringing up a hot button sociopolitical issue I don't want to think about and that's upsetting." I would like it to be clear on what is actually going on there because when people don't say what they mean, or don't even know what they mean, well then it's easy for a person or two to come in and start inflaming tensions over things that haven't even been said, meant, or done. Clarity won't make conflict go away instantaneously, but conflict sure can't be resolved without it.
I don’t think we disagree, really. I just saw where people brought politics into knitting and the two extremes were fighting so intensely while those of us in the middle were just like... can we just knit and let everyone be free to express themselves the way they want? This is the parallel I’m drawing with our pronoun debate because I think most of us want pronoun options for all. I agree that there may be no way of separating art from politics but the point I was trying to make is that EA/Maxis has the opportunity to take sides here, and so far their use of nonbinary pronouns had made it look like they are taking a side. We know they are in the midst of further change and we don’t know what that means, we can only speculate based on their actions so far. But if they give options for all, I don’t want think that would be taking a side.
When the knitting community became one-sided in that global environment I described, it emboldened them to bully and harass people - even those who hadn’t declared their position on things. I would hate to see that kind of thing happen within this community - it’s bad enough out here. 😬
Gonna be honest, I don't think this is a fair comparison because there is no "sides" really. The only side they're choosing is to add pronouns into the game (which has been requested). The recent text removals of 'he/she' pronouns for they were probably done as a temporary bandaid to the situation as a temporary way to give nonbinaries (to give them something, as most of the game is he or she only). Some of the game using she/he, some with they only. It's a "you try to appeal to both and you end up losing both" kind of result but if it's only temporary and will get changed; then it's not a big deal. Maybe not the smartest way to go about it, but w/e. If they truly said they were going to "add pronouns" to the game then that means he/him and she/her will be present too alongside a gender neutral option. If they end up just using 'they' across the board in-game then that's not adding pronouns.
Ultimately they are taking a side-but one where they choose to include pronouns as an option vs not. If they keep true to what they said, then that will be the result. Players will likely have three options to choose from (he/him, she/her, and they/them) and while the implementation may take time and will likely be buggy on release; it will (likely) work out.
and its people saying stuff like this I think when people say they don't like politics in their games; they mean they don't like having their views challenged that I take issue with you don't know what my views are. but let me explain I view games and fun things
as something people need in there life sometimes its the only good thing they have the only thing that reminds them that there is good in this world so I'm gonna do everything in my power to make sure people have fun no matter what there views are.
because when you help people have fun it can change there life and give them the strength to help others. @BlueR0se
I hope they‘re doing it right and give us non-binary pronouns as an OPTION instead forcing it on all sims. A lot of texts (notifications, etc.) from newer packs have gone completely gender neutral and I hate it. My male and female sims are not they/them. I speak both English and German. I noticed when I play the game in German my female sims will occasionally be addressed as he/him. We don‘t have a singular they in the German language so my guess is that if the original file in English uses gender neutral pronouns that the game in German will just pick a random gendered pronoun. It‘s such a bad user experience and I want none of it.
I don't speak a word of German outside of the names of a few foods and "panzerkampfwagen" but I'm just as adamant about making sure this is optional; in my simworld gender is rigidly defined and I'd like it to stay that way.
(he/him)
And remember this above all. Our Roman gods are watching. Make sure they are not ashamed!
My NBA site, Pace and Space
and its people saying stuff like this I think when people say they don't like politics in their games; they mean they don't like having their views challenged that I take issue with you don't know what my views are. but let me explain I view games and fun things
as something people need in there life sometimes its the only good thing they have the only thing that reminds them that there is good in this world so I'm gonna do everything in my power to make sure people have fun no matter what there views are.
because when you help people have fun it can change there life and give them the strength to help others. @BlueR0se
Okay, so thank you for saying this cause despite all I wrote I forgot to talk about one thing:
In regards to this quote..."I think when people say they don't like politics in their games; they mean they don't like having their views challenged or be reminded that there are beliefs that conflict with theirs."
I forgot to mention that I feel like people associate "politics" with the concept/feeling of "conflict/confrontation/discomfort" or straight up just thinks its synonymous with "controversial topics" (they're not the same thing). Even when confronted with something you agree with; you can still wish to avoid engaging with it because it causes you discomfort for a variety of reasons. You can wish to not see bad things that exist irl that you wish didn't.
It is perfectly fine to want for people to have fun and reducing controversial topics to avoid fighting/conflict (part of the reason the 'no politics' rule for this forum). But not everyone is going to agree on what "fun" is and what is/isn't controversial. THAT is the inherit dilemma and what I mean in that political influences are unavoidable on some level: you can't avoid the clash of perspectives/beliefs/ideologies. Everyone is going to have a different takes on anything you present them with. We as people/society essentially just pick what to fight over.
To be specifically clear, I was referring more to people who pick and choose what "political" means and complain when its something they don't like/agree with but act like the games they do like/play don't have political content/influences when they absolutely do. Here are some specific examples in meme format:
Ex 1: https://i.redd.it/zh2ijdswh0d51.png
Ex 2: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/497/407/6db.jpg
The joke is that all these games that are claimed to be "not political" are full of political content. The reason they believe it's not is cause it coincides with their own beliefs/worldview. But when a game contains content that doesn't align with their viewpoint, it's suddenly "political." Specifically, in these cases it is most often "suddenly political" when it deals with LGBT+, racial stuff, or women's issues.
And no I do NOT like politics. It reminds me how much the world sucks and it's depressing. While I enjoy some of this conversation/post writing, I'm reminded why I never stick around on this forum for long because there are some rude people on here and it's too hostile. (Not you, btw).
But the point of the discussion was that although that we can certainly reduce the amount of controversial content (or things that don't sit well with us): everything is related and you can't escape things like political ideas/influences completely. Art reflects society/culture; society/culture reflects art. People are impacted by the world they live in and politics is one of those components. Even if it's only on a microscopic level or like super distantly, there is always some political influence at play.
tl;dr - I was not trying to imply that you yourself were calling it political because it conflicts with your beliefs. I quoted you specifically in regards to your comment on escapism. And that my post was trying to focus on that "escapism" is ultimately all about perspective (finding something that is agreeable to you and/or doesn't give you discomfort which is normal and not a bad thing!!) and what someone constitutes as worthy to escape to. In general, people try to make content that the most people will find enjoyable, but not everyone will approve. Ex: Some people like shooting games and de-stress that way; others don't and may be turned off by the violence. You can't please everyone and what constitutes as "controversial topics" is 100% gonna depend on the person (influenced by their culture + other things).
I wasn't trying to take a dig at you and apologize if I hurt your feelings or something that you took offense. The topic of how politics/culture and art interact + how escapism fits into that was something I just wanted to explore along with commenting on a few things including the aspect of how people like to throw around the word politics when that's not what they mean, the cherry picking that often occurs in what is "politics in games" complaints, and how art/media and culture interact. @comicsforlife
Y'all! Please be very positive, I don't want my post to be locked because of... some kind of like complaints or maybe criticism and stuff.
Not everyone feels very positively about how the situation is being handled, and it's important that everyone gets to voice their concerns and opinions. Of course, this should be done respectfully and we should all be polite and edit ourselves where needed.
As @comicsforlife said, mods will clean up the thread and even if it does get closed, that's no fault of yours and won't reflect badly on you at all. Unfortunately it's quite a controversial topic and people have a lot of strong feelings about it.
Comments
Liberty Lee is not a real person. She doesn't "identify" as anything. If Maxis wanted to give her a specific identity down the line then yes it should reflect in her pronouns (altho really, pronouns are a choice regardless of identity. Some nonbinaries use she/her and he/him while some stick to they/them).
But using "they" as singular is perfectly fine. Maybe a little awkward for some because our culture/language is so heavily binary for years. But in general, they has always been fine to use as singular and is often used when you DON'T know the gender/pronouns of the person your speaking to and it's kind of a "safeguard" as it is gender neutral.
I have a theory, and it may be wrong so fair warning. But a lot of folks have commented on the gender neutral pronouns recently in the game and are concerned that it will be ONLY gender neutral because of it, but I'm 99% sure that's wrong and it means the opposite. I recall way back that there was this belief/sentiment/idea that adding pronouns to the game would essentially be a ton of work and you'd have to rehaul the text system entirely or that was just a lot of work.
Assuming that's true, my guess is that they are probably changing a lot of the text to where the pronoun (the word in the game text) itself is flagged (like a sim's name is flagged in code so it appears in game). That way, when the option for pronouns is set up, whichever one you choose will appear in the text. Ex: "(Sim name) loves summer. (Pronoun) enjoys splashing in the ocean's waves the most." Of course, in game it will read "Sally loves Summer. She enjoys splashing in the ocean's waves the most."
The fact they changed some of the gendered pronouns to they/them for some game text is probably evidence that they're in the process of whittling down excess text from the old system (maybe streamlining it?) and preparing for the new rehauled-system. The "they" in the dialogue is probably a temporary filler pronoun until the full pronouns system is properly embedded (Including she/her and he/him). Which makes sense cause they is gender neutral. Streamlining the Neighborhood text cards to "they" as a filler prior to the Pronouns Update being added to the game also makes sense as that is less work for them to do down the line to create it in line with the new system at launch versus having to go back and tweak it. And changing old game text to 'they' in small batches is (I believe) a better way to do updates (release them in smaller increments over time, especially if you're trying to catch errors) but I could be wrong.
Now I am probably speaking out of my butt when it comes to the details (cause I know very little on coding or this game's coding). But regardless I can only imagine it's just a temporarily filler until the full pronoun system comes in. Because real talk, there is no point to saying you are implementing pronouns in your game if you're only to use just one. If she/he doesn't show up in the dialogue when the options for pronouns gets here; then its all worthless. The whole point is for they/them users to be included and distinct(ly not binary); not to ostracize everyone else. Doing all the rewriting work for a free update to just alienate a lot of people and disappoint everyone is silly.
The only problem I can see arising is whether sims in existing playing files (before the patch) will be automatically assigned he/she based on their gender or if they'll all be assigned 'they' and you'd have to manually go into CAS to change it (which, while tedious, isn't that hard and new saves will likely have them properly assigned for pre-mades). Personally, I imagine "he/she" will be the default but it could go either way.
I can understand folks being concerned because this game doesn't have the best track record for many things, but I feel like there is a whole lot of jumping to conclusions going on. I could be wrong about my assumptions and it's certainly in the realm of possibility that they could use "they" as a blanket pronoun across the board but its too soon to judge what they haven't even revealed yet.
The idea that entertainment is supposed to be an escape is itself a belief/position (however you want to put it). Whether we want to call it a social or politically defined thing, it doesn't just come out of nowhere. Some documentaries, for example, could be considered a form of entertainment, while also providing real information. So I don't think it can be said that escaping reality is fundamental to entertainment, it's just something that people often want out of it.
I realize this could come across as needlessly pedantic, but I'm trying to put into context what I said before, that these are so often choices somewhere along the line, sometimes explicitly enforced, sometimes not, but choices nonetheless (e.g. just because we view this or that as normal doesn't mean it is everywhere or always was). It's the same with the idea that we aren't allowed to talk about "political things" (which probably means voting, reps, and stuff related to that for the most part and that in itself is saying something about what they think politics begins and ends with). And if it was only about fighting, people fight a lot about the game itself and their opinions of it. So if the goal was to prevent all fighting, it'd probably be a good idea to just not allow talking about the game (I'm being a little tongue in cheek there, trying to have a sense of humor about it, but again, trying to make a point too).
That said, I agree this particular thing shouldn't be an issue to begin with. Ideally, they would have just programmed in a nonbinary possibility from the start and let people set the pronouns of a sim or something.
I agree the option in cas would be nice. @Triplis and don't get me wrong I think ea is hoping for a reaction bad or good as
long as people talk about the game. I just wish people enjoying themselves was what they care about most because people need
that in there life and if it turns out that we get the option to pick what are sims are called that means they didn't tell us because they wanted us to talk about it and thats kind of mean to make people worry or to make others feel attacked because some people
are worried.
I will try to sum it up in parts. There is a lot that I have said here, and I know people have strong feelings about this. I got nothing against gender neutral pronouns, but this has several red flags all over it.
1. The game right now refers to every sim as M0 and F0 in the code (he/she) so Liberty Lee is either a M0 or F0 that's selected in CAS in the game, that's just how it is. Mila Munch in this context asking Summer "Should I get to know Liberty Lee a little better? They seem like good company." is not using M0 or F0 in this message, they removed that and it is saying they instead. This is what people are concerned about, that the game is no longer going to use M0 and F0 in messages.
2. If you want the game to use a third pronoun that doesn't have gender (let's call it G0). Like the people wanted in the survey. There is a chance that they would have to go back and add G0 everywhere where they have written M0 and F0 during 7 years of coding. Which is a lot of work.
3. They also have to consult with language experts, because the game supports 18 languages, which would lead to them also having to double the messages in many cases because you can't just replace He/She with They in several languages.
These are valid concerns that I have, and I believe I have the right to question Maxis how they are gonna do it. This is a life simulator that should give us options, not remove them. But as I have listed, adding options will be a lot of work.
My suggestions:
And when you are making the sims5, make gender a variable instead. Then it can be whatever the player wants.
That's what I meant to say, I tend to stay away from political ideology in real life, so I'm not really up to date with how it works-I'm sorry if I've caused any offence or come across as ignorant. It's also why I tend to refrain from posting in these kinds of topics.
What about the transmen and transwomen? If a transman created his sim with a male frame, expecting to be referred to as he/him, then the use of “they” could be hurtful to him.
If I’m out in public and someone refers to me as “they/them” I would probably wonder who that person was talking about because it’s obvious I identify as a woman. If someone said that about a transwoman, she might get upset and say, “It’s ma’am” or “I’m she/her”.
Not only do they need to replace the pronoun in this example, but they also need to modify the verb. Liberty Lee as a “they” “seem” like good company. Liberty Lee as a “she” “seems” like good company.
If they commit to using “they/them” universally, they still have to go back and fix the gendered texts. If they add a pronoun one can select, they still have to edit the more recent texts.
I don’t know how it works, but changing a bunch of text strings seems like something an intern with a decent grasp on language could do, from any language, provided they were given some direction on how to handle it in each language. Determining those instructions sounds like the hard part for them since they haven’t gotten past the “research” step. Hopefully they’re including everyone in their research and don’t go the way of Animal Crossing NH English edition.
Yeah, the best way would probably be to add second messages that the game uses if you have selected gender neutral for that sim in CAS (For example Liberty Lee). Then they can adjust that message based on the language that the game is using. If you didn't select it then the game can use the same messages that it has used for 7 years. And for messages that are not updated the game will use the old messages as default.
Like you said in your post, having sims talking with gender neutral pronouns is complicated for many people. Some people want to identify themselves as he, others as she, others as they, etc.
I know I want my Bella Goth to be identified as a she, and Don Lothario as a he. But I don't mind if other players want them to be identified differently. As long as that is offered as a second message.
This is a similar argument used by those in the knitting community who used knitting for political purposes. “Knitting is art, and every single piece of art ever made is a commentary on the politics of its time”... or something like that. Sometimes a sweater is just a sweater. Sometimes a painting is just a painting. You should see what happened in this global knitting community once the private site owner sided with one side and completely banned the other side. It wasn’t pretty and still isn’t. Hopefully EA/Maxis finds a way to satisfy everyone without taking sides.
You toggle on the gender a sim is born with and then toggle the gender they identify as, or non-binary.
And then the game assigns the appropriate pronouns in text boxes.
An Intersex choice will need to be added for all the variations in between male and female for those who don't want
to have to choose either because they are not accurate, but can select what they want to be identified as.
That would be for people to be satisfied that they are creating the sim that represents the sim they want to create.
But if you want to keep things simple there should be a binary/non-binary pronouns toggle.
They should also fix that mesh problem.
Just talking about this I went in and experimented with the gender settings. I just expanded the variations of my male sims by picking a feminine frame. However, the mesh seems a bit janky in the neck and stomach which makes me not want to use it.
If they are going to do this, they should go all in support everyone and not trade off the binaries being binary.
Thank you for the detailed explanation! That helps a lot.
1.) While I agree that removing G0/M0 can be concerning in this context, I stand by my statement that it may a temporary step in adding pronouns to the game. Perhaps a bit convoluted/unnecessarily complicated but my understanding that the game's code is like a bowl of spaghetti (especially when you do consider how many pack variations a player has and glitches that arise from that). Or it's just straight up a genuine mistake (or something rushed) that was overlooked cause Maxis was more concerned about getting the small part of the Neighborhood Stories update to get feedback and seeing how it is received. I can only speculate cause Im not sure what their plan is in terms of implementing the pronoun system, but considering how much bugs/glitches we get on a good day with this game; it's perfectly possible that these are genuine errors cause they began fiddling with the code. Or it's a small step to adding something else. Idk.
2.) I agree that its a a lot of work. Whether that's worth the effort will boil down to opinion. But considering how much work they're doing in rehauling/adding a lot of things (NPC Overhaul, Neighborhood Stories/Story Progression, etc), it kind of makes sense and goes along with their seemingly goal of giving the game a new/updated look. Clearly Maxis is still invested in this game to justify such major changes this late even with Sims 5 development (likely?) in progress. As long as Sims 4 continues to make $$$ they'll keep milking the cow.
3.) Yes, for some languages the option of "they" or another third gender pronoun is not viable. The language is too binary (ex: in Spanish, all nouns are male or female.). For some languages, there has been movements to add gender neutral options but that takes time + is customed to the language it comes from.
I want to say it's perfectly fine to be skeptic and concerned. The Sims 4 is not a game with the best track record and has made many choices that are worth the criticism.
Your feedback is solid and I have no problems with it. I agree having the pronouns as variables is the smartest route to go about it (esp if they decide to add a neopronoun in the future, but I don't think they will. 'They' is pretty accepted cross the board). I don't know how viable your suggestions are in terms of implementation with Sims 4's game coding (+ whatever Maxis' plan for the new addition) but that's Maxis' job to figure out.
Keeping she/her and he/him as pronouns and adding they/them as an option is what those who've been pushing for pronouns (specifically they/them as gender neutral option) want. Yes, sometimes corporations go lazy routes for half-baked inclusivity to butter up their image but this iteration of Sims has been notably more on the mark for those sort of things or open to feedback & implementing changes (ignoring my frustrations with how messy/glitchy the 'cross-dress' options are). Especially if there are openly non-binary devs on the team (+ CIS gendered ones).
There may be a small select group of people who'd rather have universal 'they' over strictly binary 'she or he' (speaking about a petition that was linked in thread). This is likely brought up with the idea that it has to be "all or nothing" which it doesn't. It is perfectly possible to add pronoun options; just extra work.
For those who are upset about the removel of the she/he pronouns (F0/M0 variables) in some of the game text; that is your opinion which you are entitled to and are right to give (polite!!!! Remember devs are people.) feedback. But while I won't name specific users, there has been a lot of knee jerk-y reactions and a select few of straight up rude comments.
I wasn't offended, but my comment had nothing to do with political ideology. I was simply pointing out that using pronouns - I, you, she, he, they - is normal in everyday, real-life use of the English language. What folks are specifically concerned about in this thread are whether all Sims will be forced to use the gender-neutral pronouns, they/them/their.
That's what can happen when you talk about things like this... I am not interested in conflict, I just want to discuss possibilities.
My suggestion as I posted before is to probably add second messages that the game will say if the player has enabled gender neutral pronouns for their sims in the game (in CAS or in the game options). That way Maxis can update messages over time, and the player can choose how they want it. Maxis doesn't have to update everything at once because the game will use the old messages if it doesn't find any updated message when the player has enabled gender neutral pronouns.
But I'm not sure how difficult that would be to do. It depends how much money Maxis wants to put into this. Letting all messages from now on use gender neutral pronouns is a cheaper solution but I feel that won't be a good solution for the players who wanted the game to have gender neutral pronouns for all messages in the game, or for the people who wanted to have a choice.
Just sounds like your experience with that community affirms what I said, not contradicts it. Banning everybody who disagrees is obviously a pretty drastic and probably pointlessly combative way to handle some ideological disagreements in a knitting community, but at the same time, pretending the conflict isn't there wouldn't have made it go away. I hesitate to generalize conflict too broadly, but I would say the issue isn't finding a way to do things without taking sides, it's finding a way to resolve whatever conflict there is with the least amount of damage done and the most gratifying (and hopefully fair) solution. Whether we will get such a solution in this case if we get one at all, I don't know. Though this game hasn't always done the best job with features in general, they did do the clothing and frame thing to support people who are not heteronormative (for lack of a better word, my terminology is failing me a bit here, apologies to anyone who may find it poorly representative of the issue).
So anyway, yeah, I will defend the point about how inseparable these things are not cause it's my opinion or something, but because I'm pretty confident it's factually true and acknowledging it matters when, like in the context I was responding to, people start saying that things are "getting political" and they want it out of their entertainment, when usually what they mean is something like: "I disagree with this ideologically and don't want it in my game but admitting that would mean I have to say why and I'm not prepared to defend myself," or "this is bringing up a hot button sociopolitical issue I don't want to think about and that's upsetting." I would like it to be clear on what is actually going on there because when people don't say what they mean, or don't even know what they mean, well then it's easy for a person or two to come in and start inflaming tensions over things that haven't even been said, meant, or done. Clarity won't make conflict go away instantaneously, but conflict sure can't be resolved without it.
I didnt know this was a thing. Good god. I just want the Sims to be about the SIMS. Who knew this would be controversial 💀
Personality,depth,humor,consequences,lore,customization.
When the knitting community became one-sided in that global environment I described, it emboldened them to bully and harass people - even those who hadn’t declared their position on things. I would hate to see that kind of thing happen within this community - it’s bad enough out here. 😬
I'm not here to argue with these quotes directly, but this topic made me think a lot and I kind of wanted to discuss it (feel free to ignore).
First, some clarification. Is the inclusion of pronouns (specifically gender neutral ones such as 'they') in the game "political?" The definition of that word is "relating to the government or the public affairs of a country." Sims 4 is not tied to any government nor does it make laws, remove laws, or have any influence on any government decisions. So, no.
A lot of people like to throw around the word politics/political and claim something is that when in reality--it might not be. It may be related to political movements distantly, and it is certainly SOCIAL change but it's not politics. Is it influenced by politics? Ultimately, yes. But that is because is entertainment/art; which both are influenced by the beliefs of whoever made it which are influenced by the culture that/those person(s) grew up in which social and political things are a significant, integral part.
Art is an expression of a person's beliefs in a creative manner. How we perceive the world influences what we create. Culture influences art, art influences culture (and their values). Their intertwined.
On the surface level a painting is a painting; but there is more to it. There are so many things that come to influence a painting. What do we constitute as art? What makes a painting a painting? What makes it worthy for being 'art' (or people's time)? Who gets to paint? Who doesn't? How people are depicted in art can sometimes reflect the artist's standard of beauty (or at least perception of people/groups). Even if all someone is doing is painting a tree they are still doing that in the belief that doing so would give them joy and is worth the time/effort (or find nature pretty, idk). Painting in particular in history has been 100% historically tied to political movements (certain styles).
A person painting a tree is not going to have the same amount of social/political influence as someone who painted a battle scene or a protest march but it's still there, even if it's microscopic.
In the example of knitting, I'd argue that it is influenced by politics just like every art is on some level. Even if the person knitting isn't actively engaging in expressing political ideologies in their craft; their crafts are still affected by their perceptions/ideologies even if on a very tiny level. What they deem acceptable/worth making, "what makes a sweater a sweater," etc.
Also, to clarify: the situation that is being referred to in the knitting debate didn't have people banned because they disagreed whether or not knitting itself is a political act. Content (forum posts + knitting crafts) associated with a particular political party (and a certain politician) was banned from the site and some people were upset (and possibly death threats involved, I'm not sure). This sparked up the debate about whether knitting was a space for political discussions, and it was argued that knitting was always political (which, historically it has been used as political protests and whatnot). The decision allegedly was made because the banned content in question was deemed associated with hate groups or hateful content and they wanted to provide a safe space/inclusive environment.
Note: I am NOT here to state my opinion on this decision nor do I care what anyone else's is as that is directly a political discussion which is against the rules. The reason I bring it up is cause I feel like the context is important. People weren't banned because they disagreed whether or not they viewed knitting as political itself, they were banned because the owner of the (private!) site banned content that was deemed (essentially) inappropriate by the owner of the site. Google "knitting political" and the first thing is an article related to the topic and you can read it yourself or probably find other articles on it.
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I think when people say they don't like politics in their games; they mean they don't like having their views challenged or be reminded that there are beliefs that conflict with theirs. Because when people have different ideas of what is right, what is wrong, what is acceptable, what is not; it's going to come to a head and it's not always in a peaceful manner. But that's life.
People sometimes use games as an escapism, yes. But no art is ever completely devoid of political/social influence. Its just is that the game is not challenging your own beliefs enough and/or fits your perception of gives you comfort/conforms to your views (so much so you may not even recognize it as politically influenced).
Sims as a franchise has always had political influences, even if unintentionally or were choices not made actively to be political statements. Allowing same sex romance in a time where that was debated (s/s marriage wasn't legal, etc.) is tied to social/political change, even if not intentional. While its true corporations are capitalizing on the LGBT+ social movement, to be fair the Sims as a franchise has historically been LGBT friendly. The transgender and non-binary additions are not a surprise and shouldn't be one. Not to mention the Sims 4 specifically has a lot of pro-environmental undertones and has two packs related to it.
Culture and people's perceptions/beliefs are constantly changing and that can create a lot of anxiety. People generally don't like their worldviews challenged. There is nothing wrong with wanting to escape to comfort and enjoy entertainment that doesn't challenge you too hard or remind you of things that give you discomfort. But you can't ever 'escape' truly; you just choose to engage in someone else's regurgitated expression of reality (which is influenced by their beliefs which directly tie into the world they live in).
Adding pronouns (specifically gender neutral) as an option is not something that is political and SHOULDN'T be an issue but because the very notion challenges our culture's concept of gender and actively goes against the binary man/woman social roles that people were raised to believe; some perceive that as a threat and make a big stink out of it. It happened with the trans patch/cross dressing patch, as well as the addition of hijab and it'll happen again. And I'm not talking about the "swapping he/she out for they" additions (like in the Neighborhood Stories update) I'm talking about the addition of pronouns being available and selectable in a future patch.
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Anywho, this is mostly a post for me to ramble. But I do agree with @Triplis that art is inseparable from political/social influences and while there are certainly more politically-influenced medias than others; it's impossible to completely separate from oneself because everything is connected. I think the distinction of what is actually political vs what challenges/conflicts with our beliefs/perceptions is important.
Gonna be honest, I don't think this is a fair comparison because there is no "sides" really. The only side they're choosing is to add pronouns into the game (which has been requested). The recent text removals of 'he/she' pronouns for they were probably done as a temporary bandaid to the situation as a temporary way to give nonbinaries (to give them something, as most of the game is he or she only). Some of the game using she/he, some with they only. It's a "you try to appeal to both and you end up losing both" kind of result but if it's only temporary and will get changed; then it's not a big deal. Maybe not the smartest way to go about it, but w/e. If they truly said they were going to "add pronouns" to the game then that means he/him and she/her will be present too alongside a gender neutral option. If they end up just using 'they' across the board in-game then that's not adding pronouns.
Ultimately they are taking a side-but one where they choose to include pronouns as an option vs not. If they keep true to what they said, then that will be the result. Players will likely have three options to choose from (he/him, she/her, and they/them) and while the implementation may take time and will likely be buggy on release; it will (likely) work out.
as something people need in there life sometimes its the only good thing they have the only thing that reminds them that there is good in this world so I'm gonna do everything in my power to make sure people have fun no matter what there views are.
because when you help people have fun it can change there life and give them the strength to help others. @BlueR0se
I don't speak a word of German outside of the names of a few foods and "panzerkampfwagen" but I'm just as adamant about making sure this is optional; in my simworld gender is rigidly defined and I'd like it to stay that way.
And remember this above all. Our Roman gods are watching. Make sure they are not ashamed!
My NBA site, Pace and Space
I hope you have the best time.
don't worry @12JEREMIA things always get out of hand on the week end the mods will clean stuff up.
Okay, so thank you for saying this cause despite all I wrote I forgot to talk about one thing:
In regards to this quote..."I think when people say they don't like politics in their games; they mean they don't like having their views challenged or be reminded that there are beliefs that conflict with theirs."
I forgot to mention that I feel like people associate "politics" with the concept/feeling of "conflict/confrontation/discomfort" or straight up just thinks its synonymous with "controversial topics" (they're not the same thing). Even when confronted with something you agree with; you can still wish to avoid engaging with it because it causes you discomfort for a variety of reasons. You can wish to not see bad things that exist irl that you wish didn't.
It is perfectly fine to want for people to have fun and reducing controversial topics to avoid fighting/conflict (part of the reason the 'no politics' rule for this forum). But not everyone is going to agree on what "fun" is and what is/isn't controversial. THAT is the inherit dilemma and what I mean in that political influences are unavoidable on some level: you can't avoid the clash of perspectives/beliefs/ideologies. Everyone is going to have a different takes on anything you present them with. We as people/society essentially just pick what to fight over.
To be specifically clear, I was referring more to people who pick and choose what "political" means and complain when its something they don't like/agree with but act like the games they do like/play don't have political content/influences when they absolutely do. Here are some specific examples in meme format:
Ex 1: https://i.redd.it/zh2ijdswh0d51.png
Ex 2: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/497/407/6db.jpg
The joke is that all these games that are claimed to be "not political" are full of political content. The reason they believe it's not is cause it coincides with their own beliefs/worldview. But when a game contains content that doesn't align with their viewpoint, it's suddenly "political." Specifically, in these cases it is most often "suddenly political" when it deals with LGBT+, racial stuff, or women's issues.
And no I do NOT like politics. It reminds me how much the world sucks and it's depressing. While I enjoy some of this conversation/post writing, I'm reminded why I never stick around on this forum for long because there are some rude people on here and it's too hostile. (Not you, btw).
But the point of the discussion was that although that we can certainly reduce the amount of controversial content (or things that don't sit well with us): everything is related and you can't escape things like political ideas/influences completely. Art reflects society/culture; society/culture reflects art. People are impacted by the world they live in and politics is one of those components. Even if it's only on a microscopic level or like super distantly, there is always some political influence at play.
tl;dr - I was not trying to imply that you yourself were calling it political because it conflicts with your beliefs. I quoted you specifically in regards to your comment on escapism. And that my post was trying to focus on that "escapism" is ultimately all about perspective (finding something that is agreeable to you and/or doesn't give you discomfort which is normal and not a bad thing!!) and what someone constitutes as worthy to escape to. In general, people try to make content that the most people will find enjoyable, but not everyone will approve. Ex: Some people like shooting games and de-stress that way; others don't and may be turned off by the violence. You can't please everyone and what constitutes as "controversial topics" is 100% gonna depend on the person (influenced by their culture + other things).
I wasn't trying to take a dig at you and apologize if I hurt your feelings or something that you took offense. The topic of how politics/culture and art interact + how escapism fits into that was something I just wanted to explore along with commenting on a few things including the aspect of how people like to throw around the word politics when that's not what they mean, the cherry picking that often occurs in what is "politics in games" complaints, and how art/media and culture interact. @comicsforlife
Not everyone feels very positively about how the situation is being handled, and it's important that everyone gets to voice their concerns and opinions. Of course, this should be done respectfully and we should all be polite and edit ourselves where needed.
As @comicsforlife said, mods will clean up the thread and even if it does get closed, that's no fault of yours and won't reflect badly on you at all. Unfortunately it's quite a controversial topic and people have a lot of strong feelings about it.