For me personally, I think that the ideal route to go would be to have the player be able to manually enter the pronouns that they want their character to use somehow because there are far too many pronouns for some kind of drop down list and having a list which will inevitably exclude some options that people do use seems exclusionary. But, I don't know if manually entering pronouns would work with the game code because for each pronoun there are variations for different grammatical contexts - e.g. just as we have she/her/hers/herself, we have xe//xyr/xyrs/xemself (similarly for other neo pronouns). So, for manually entering pronouns to work, we'd have to be able to write in the different variations of the pronoun and which is used for which grammatical contexts. It would be great if the game code could handle that but I'm not good with computers so I don't know if that is feasible.
So, I think, if manually entering pronouns isn't going to work, they may well go down the route of having they/them/theirs pronouns for all sims in the notifications. I know that this isn't popular but I don't personally mind it (though as I already stated I think the first option would be the best way to go if possible). I use she/her pronouns, but I don't feel that using they/them/theirs for all sims would be exclusionary towards me because it's a pronoun which includes all genders and even I as a cisgender woman who uses she/her pronouns already can be referred to by they/them pronouns by people in everyday life e.g. if someone hadn't met me and so didn't know my gender they might refer to me by use of they/them pronouns - similarly, if game doesn't know the gender of a sim (because the player's idea of the sim's gender could fit into the common she/her or he/him boxes OR it could be more complex than allowed for by the game's mechanics) it can use they/them pronouns instead.
A third option would be that they will keep she/her, he/him pronouns and have they/them as an additional option for sims whose pronouns are not she/her or he/him... But this would leave out a whole bunch of pronouns as I already mentioned in the first paragraph.
It's a complicated issue and I don't know how they are going to handle it. Personally, it doesn't really matter to me what pronouns are used in the notifications in my game. I know what my sim's genders/pronouns are in my head and don't pay that much attention to the notifications anyway. But, I would be glad to see the game becoming more inclusive.
For me personally, I think that the ideal route to go would be to have the player be able to manually enter the pronouns that they want their character to use somehow because there are far too many pronouns for some kind of drop down list and having a list which will inevitably exclude some options that people do use seems exclusionary. But, I don't know if manually entering pronouns would work with the game code because for each pronoun there are variations for different grammatical contexts - e.g. just as we have she/her/hers/herself, we have xe//xyr/xyrs/xemself (similarly for other neo pronouns). So, for manually entering pronouns to work, we'd have to be able to write in the different variations of the pronoun and which is used for which grammatical contexts. It would be great if the game code could handle that but I'm not good with computers so I don't know if that is feasible.
So, I think, if manually entering pronouns isn't going to work, they may well go down the route of having they/them/theirs pronouns for all sims in the notifications. I know that this isn't popular but I don't personally mind it (though as I already stated I think the first option would be the best way to go if possible). I use she/her pronouns, but I don't feel that using they/them/theirs for all sims would be exclusionary towards me because it's a pronoun which includes all genders and even I as a cisgender woman who uses she/her pronouns already can be referred to by they/them pronouns by people in everyday life e.g. if someone hadn't met me and so didn't know my gender they might refer to me by use of they/them pronouns - similarly, if game doesn't know the gender of a sim (because the player's idea of the sim's gender could fit into the common she/her or he/him boxes OR it could be more complex than allowed for by the game's mechanics) it can use they/them pronouns instead.
A third option would be that they will keep she/her, he/him pronouns and have they/them as an additional option for sims whose pronouns are not she/her or they/them... But this would leave out a whole bunch of pronouns as I already mentioned in the first paragraph.
It's a complicated issue and I don't know how they are going to handle it. Personally, it doesn't really matter to me what pronouns are used in the notifications in my game. I know what my sim's genders/pronouns are in my head and don't pay that much attention to the notifications anyway. But, I would be glad to see the game becoming more inclusive.
You have a good idea. Perhaps they could handle this like they handle the name of your Sim. Perhaps we could enter the pronoun we want (even if unknown to Maxis) and it be acceptable enough within the textual notifications. We enter any name we want for our Sims (except the gallery often censors some) and everyone could be called whatever they want to be called. They already have the system for a first name, why not for pronouns.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
I guess my issue with making everything gender neutral is that I just don't understand why the game can't just recognize sex and gender identity. We are all born into a sex, that is just basic biology, miracle of life and evolution. Basic Male/female (for the most part). There is nothing offensive about that because it's reality. It's not until people get older with independent thought and the ability to compare and question perceptions, that's when identity comes into play and it's a continuing journey. It's not simple, it's not something one decides in a hot minute (I mean, they can, but it's always subject to change) and it's not something that's necessarily permanent. It's identity. It's deep, it's layered, it's multi-faceted and it's very, very personal. Identity goes beyond gender norms or challenges. There's also sexual identity, professional identity, and all kinds of other influences and environments that can add to self-perception. It just so happens that gender is what's being talked about the most these days, but realistically, that's not the be-all of a human entity. But even when one "identifies" as a gender that's not their birth sex, they are still going to be their birth sex. That's just your biology and your biology is still relevant for medical treatment and physical identification purposes. Your sex doesn't just disappear because you "identify" as another gender. They coexist, even if reluctantly so. (But that's an entirely different conversation.)
So what's wrong with the game continuing to recognize male/female sexes as the default? When babies are born, they don't burst out with an identity crisis, they just naturally exist. Why shouldn't Sims continue to be born into their sex, develop through their childhood, and put a separate optional system in place so that when they hit their, say, teens, there now comes into play some kind of secondary optional pronoun system where they can change how they are addressed? And as for NPCs and townies, just go by the default unless the developers create the Sims to be gender non-conforming. It doesn't have to be like Rocket Science here. Look at some of the systems in Parenthood and maybe go from there. Maybe refresh Parenthood to sort of explore gender neutrality as children if the player chooses, I don't know.
I really just want the male/female sex to continue/return to be recognized, even if just in a basic way for some game mechanics. Clothing and hair defaults for instance, but maybe add in a gender neutral category for special tagged designs intended for blurring the lines. The latest "Menswear" Kit just made things stop making sense because we have skirts under the "masculine" tag. I'm sorry, but mini skirts aren't a masculine design. See, we're already starting to get into the realm of murking up the categories and I really think, just for organizational and simplicity's sake, they should bring back Male/Female and add the non-binary tag. Allow us to have Clubs categorized by sex for crying out loud. Then, down the line, gender. Keep them as two separate things and I think people will be likely less confused and the game won't fall quite as much into chaos and argument. I also think that maybe instead of English pronouns, they should just stay true to the Sims and create some Simlish words. It might be weird at first, but the Sims aren't actually real people so shouldn't they have something that makes sense in their world? It would be gibberish in all languages. I don't know if that's possible either, but I'm sort of just thinking out loud at this point.
So what's wrong with the game continuing to recognize male/female sexes as the default? When babies are born, they don't burst out with an identity crisis, they just naturally exist. Why shouldn't Sims continue to be born into their sex, develop through their childhood, and put a separate optional system in place so that when they hit their, say, teens, there now comes into play some kind of secondary optional pronoun system where they can change how they are addressed? And as for NPCs and townies, just go by the default unless the developers create the Sims to be gender non-conforming. It doesn't have to be like Rocket Science here. Look at some of the systems in Parenthood and maybe go from there. Maybe refresh Parenthood to sort of explore gender neutrality as children if the player chooses, I don't know.
I agree and I think in terms of adding meaningful gameplay an optional system would be a great idea, although ultimately it won’t change any of the current implications the team has regarding grammar / language. Adding pronoun options to CAS or having them added via a stand alone system makes no difference at the end of the day; all those text strings still need to be altered correctly once a pronoun has been identified for that sim.
I also think that maybe instead of English pronouns, they should just stay true to the Sims and create some Simlish words. It might be weird at first, but the Sims aren't actually real people so shouldn't they have something that makes sense in their world? It would be gibberish in all languages. I don't know if that's possible either, but I'm sort of just thinking out loud at this point.
YES! This makes most sense to me and I ain’t joking this time. So much for diversity and everyone just casually dismisses those poor poor sims themselves. They don’t speak our languages dang nugget! They speak their own!
How about:
Soosh = SHE/ HER/ HERS
Hoosh= HE/ HIM/ HIS
Noosh = THEY/ THEM/ THEIRS
Floosh= IT/ OTHER
Soosh talks
Hoosh talks
Noosh talks
Floosh talks.
Example:
John is happy, hoosh has just been promoted. (John identifies as male)
Jane is disgusted, soosh nooboo just smelled up floosh nappy. (Jane identifies as female and baby nooboo is an “it”, sorry about that babe).
Charlie goes to town with noosh friends. ( Charlie identifies as non-binary)
See? Simple? Yes.
Weird? Silly? Naturally. But it’s the SIMS, DOH!! 🤦🏻♂️
We should be able to use pronouns like any given first name. No need for the team to change grammar for each one. Add more pronouns if need be.
Sorted. No more nonsense. Respect those sims, whatever gender they identify with. Why miss this great opportunity with the only game it makes sense to. What? Was that even grammatically correct? Who knows. I’m confused. I’m a sim at heart. I speak gibberish most of the time.
And for those playing as sim-selfs, remember a sim self is a SIM self, which means you are SIMMIFIED in every aspect, including how ”you” communicate. If you can live with thought bubbles and teleportation and swirling around once to get dressed and twice to get dressed again, I’m sure you can live with simlish pronouns. I mean you just set the entire house on fire and you lived.
AND KEEP THE DARN MINISKIRTS IN THE FEMALE CATEGORY!! Too late. Oh well.
With how many behaved against the hijab I got the impression that many of those Simmers were he/him anyways despite being women. I just got the impression they are middle aged men in their mother’s basement who like hitting on women using the feminine term honey which is a pronoun men like to use when abusing women now. So even online especially in a forum setting and cat fishing, easy to hide the pronoun you identify with. I find most Simmers type and support masculine ideals over feminine. Last time I went to Disneyland too 10 years ago I couldn’t distinguish pronouns anyways because everyone was dressed in sneakers, jeans, and tee shirts that all looked the same and had the same hairstyles. It was gender fluid at its finest. So yeah I think it is safe especially for gamers to keep everyone happy keeping it neutral. Not like I can tell the difference how they dress or type anyways especially with avatars that can be any gender.
“Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
With how many behaved against the hijab I got the impression that many of those Simmers were he/him anyways despite being women. I just got the impression they are middle aged men in their mother’s basement who like hitting on women using the feminine term honey which is a pronoun men like to use when abusing women now. So even online especially in a forum setting and cat fishing, easy to hide the pronoun you identify with. I find most Simmers type and support masculine ideals over feminine. Last time I went to Disneyland too 10 years ago I couldn’t distinguish pronouns anyways because everyone was dressed in sneakers, jeans, and tee shirts that all looked the same and had the same hairstyles. It was gender fluid at its finest. So yeah I think it is safe especially for gamers to keep everyone happy keeping it neutral. Not like I can tell the difference how they dress or type anyways especially with avatars that can be any gender.
Why do you say that sneakers, jeans and t-shirts is gender fluid? It's just comfy, no fuss, fashion suitable for a day out. With some people it might be difficult to tell gender and not because of their clothing, but most display other very obvious gender characteristics even if dressed in comfy sneakers, jeans and t-shirts.
With how many behaved against the hijab I got the impression that many of those Simmers were he/him anyways despite being women. I just got the impression they are middle aged men in their mother’s basement who like hitting on women using the feminine term honey which is a pronoun men like to use when abusing women now. So even online especially in a forum setting and cat fishing, easy to hide the pronoun you identify with. I find most Simmers type and support masculine ideals over feminine. Last time I went to Disneyland too 10 years ago I couldn’t distinguish pronouns anyways because everyone was dressed in sneakers, jeans, and tee shirts that all looked the same and had the same hairstyles. It was gender fluid at its finest. So yeah I think it is safe especially for gamers to keep everyone happy keeping it neutral. Not like I can tell the difference how they dress or type anyways especially with avatars that can be any gender.
Why do you say that sneakers, jeans and t-shirts is gender fluid? It's just comfy, no fuss, fashion suitable for a day out. With some people it might be difficult to tell gender and not because of their clothing, but most display other very obvious gender characteristics even if dressed in comfy sneakers, jeans and t-shirts.
I couldn’t tell the difference with couples straight or not by what they wore and acted. My family couldn’t either. In America we are just more gender fluid than some other traditional countries when it comes to clothing and mannerisms. Disney fans act like Disney fans just like Simmer fans act like Simmer fans. We all have our nerdy quirks and mannerisms. Again why judging women for wearing the hijab or men wearing a skirt is silly. I can’t tell what someone’s pronoun is unless I ask them directly.
Which does bring up a forum idea. @EA_Cade do you think being able to pick our pronoun on forums be helpful especially since many including myself have a gender neutral username?
I really love the idea of Simlish pronouns too and having it optional. It would help a lot with language barriers.
“Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
Some Destiny pronouns which the Sim Gurus use on Apex too for themselves are Zagadoo for the guy crew and Zagadolli for the girl group and they don’t have a name for when they combine their players but something like Zagadoimpling could work. @CAPTAIN_NXR7 I really loved your words too and made sure to share them with the Gurus.
“Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
So what's wrong with the game continuing to recognize male/female sexes as the default? When babies are born, they don't burst out with an identity crisis, they just naturally exist. Why shouldn't Sims continue to be born into their sex, develop through their childhood, and put a separate optional system in place so that when they hit their, say, teens, there now comes into play some kind of secondary optional pronoun system where they can change how they are addressed? And as for NPCs and townies, just go by the default unless the developers create the Sims to be gender non-conforming. It doesn't have to be like Rocket Science here. Look at some of the systems in Parenthood and maybe go from there. Maybe refresh Parenthood to sort of explore gender neutrality as children if the player chooses, I don't know.
I agree and I think in terms of adding meaningful gameplay an optional system would be a great idea, although ultimately it won’t change any of the current implications the team has regarding grammar / language. Adding pronoun options to CAS or having them added via a stand alone system makes no difference at the end of the day; all those text strings still need to be altered correctly once a pronoun has been identified for that sim.
I also think that maybe instead of English pronouns, they should just stay true to the Sims and create some Simlish words. It might be weird at first, but the Sims aren't actually real people so shouldn't they have something that makes sense in their world? It would be gibberish in all languages. I don't know if that's possible either, but I'm sort of just thinking out loud at this point.
YES! This makes most sense to me and I ain’t joking this time. So much for diversity and everyone just casually dismisses those poor poor sims themselves. They don’t speak our languages dang nugget! They speak their own!
How about:
Soosh = SHE/ HER/ HERS
Hoosh= HE/ HIM/ HIS
Noosh = THEY/ THEM/ THEIRS
Floosh= IT/ OTHER
Soosh talks
Hoosh talks
Noosh talks
Floosh talks.
Example:
John is happy, hoosh has just been promoted. (John identifies as male)
Jane is disgusted, soosh nooboo just smelled up floosh nappy. (Jane identifies as female and baby nooboo is an “it”, sorry about that babe).
Charlie goes to town with noosh friends. ( Charlie identifies as non-binary)
See? Simple? Yes.
Weird? Silly? Naturally. But it’s the SIMS, DOH!! 🤦🏻♂️
We should be able to use pronouns like any given first name. No need for the team to change grammar for each one. Add more pronouns if need be.
Sorted. No more nonsense. Respect those sims, whatever gender they identify with. Why miss this great opportunity with the only game it makes sense to. What? Was that even grammatically correct? Who knows. I’m confused. I’m a sim at heart. I speak gibberish most of the time.
And for those playing as sim-selfs, remember a sim self is a SIM self, which means you are SIMMIFIED in every aspect, including how ”you” communicate. If you can live with thought bubbles and teleportation and swirling around once to get dressed and twice to get dressed again, I’m sure you can live with simlish pronouns. I mean you just set the entire house on fire and you lived.
AND KEEP THE DARN MINISKIRTS IN THE FEMALE CATEGORY!! Too late. Oh well.
I love your suggestions! The real question is, how would they translate in other languages?
See, this is where I feel that bringing so much of the real world into The Sims has not only caused a myriad of complications, it has completely changed the type of game it is. It used to be a game where the player could exploit humanity but in a humorous and relatable way. The player was The Watcher, the hidden deity deciding if a Sim would have a good day or a bad day, spying and chortling, choosing to be malicious or benevolent. It wasn't personal because it drew the line at common and simple day to day life struggles that all humans go through. It didn't matter what the Sims looked like or acted like, they were all going to need to eat or starve to death. They needed social interaction, to use the bathroom, shower, and exist in a clean environment (or yes, that would kill them too, lol.) They all needed to make money to pay bills. They all faced obstacles. They all had to make progress toward their lifetime goals or they would have a meltdown. They all had preferences, potential for love, and a place in society. The game wasn't about what divides humanity or differentiates us but about what we have in common. It was about the simple struggles that unite us.
The Sims 4 is different because, in its quest to be inclusive, it has inadvertently shined a spotlight on division and what's not included, who isn't represented and how we differ. It has shifted the game from being the satire of an overall species, to being about the player and making it personal. And once you make it personal to the players, you are never going to get it right enough to please them because they all have different experiences and perceptions on life and many of those will clash mightily. It doesn't mean some are right and some are wrong, it just means that someone, somewhere, is always going to feel left out, which is kind of sad to think about.
This is getting ridiculous. I know they announced it the way they did to get people talking about it, and that's definitely worked, but now it's just causing unneeded arguments about quite a sensitive subject and a divide between Simmers (e.g. words like "bigot" being thrown around).
It would take a Guru five minutes to post a Tweet letting us know if they are planning on replacing gendered pronouns with only neutral ones or adding neutral pronouns while keeping the gendered ones still.
With how many behaved against the hijab I got the impression that many of those Simmers were he/him anyways despite being women. I just got the impression they are middle aged men in their mother’s basement who like hitting on women using the feminine term honey which is a pronoun men like to use when abusing women now. So even online especially in a forum setting and cat fishing, easy to hide the pronoun you identify with. I find most Simmers type and support masculine ideals over feminine. Last time I went to Disneyland too 10 years ago I couldn’t distinguish pronouns anyways because everyone was dressed in sneakers, jeans, and tee shirts that all looked the same and had the same hairstyles. It was gender fluid at its finest. So yeah I think it is safe especially for gamers to keep everyone happy keeping it neutral. Not like I can tell the difference how they dress or type anyways especially with avatars that can be any gender.
Why do you say that sneakers, jeans and t-shirts is gender fluid? It's just comfy, no fuss, fashion suitable for a day out. With some people it might be difficult to tell gender and not because of their clothing, but most display other very obvious gender characteristics even if dressed in comfy sneakers, jeans and t-shirts.
I couldn’t tell the difference with couples straight or not by what they wore and acted. My family couldn’t either. In America we are just more gender fluid than some other traditional countries when it comes to clothing and mannerisms. Disney fans act like Disney fans just like Simmer fans act like Simmer fans. We all have our nerdy quirks and mannerisms. Again why judging women for wearing the hijab or men wearing a skirt is silly. I can’t tell what someone’s pronoun is unless I ask them directly.
Which does bring up a forum idea. @EA_Cade do you think being able to pick our pronoun on forums be helpful especially since many including myself have a gender neutral username?
I really love the idea of Simlish pronouns too and having it optional. It would help a lot with language barriers.
That is an interesting idea, I'll forward this up to our forum hosting provider. In the meantime, you're always welcome to utilize the signature space for this function.
Post edited by EA_Cade on
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This is getting ridiculous. I know they announced it the way they did to get people talking about it, and that's definitely worked, but now it's just causing unneeded arguments about quite a sensitive subject and a divide between Simmers (e.g. words like "bigot" being thrown around).
It would take a Guru five minutes to post a Tweet letting us know if they are planning on replacing gendered pronouns with only neutral ones or adding neutral pronouns while keeping the gendered ones still.
So what's wrong with the game continuing to recognize male/female sexes as the default? When babies are born, they don't burst out with an identity crisis, they just naturally exist. Why shouldn't Sims continue to be born into their sex, develop through their childhood, and put a separate optional system in place so that when they hit their, say, teens, there now comes into play some kind of secondary optional pronoun system where they can change how they are addressed? And as for NPCs and townies, just go by the default unless the developers create the Sims to be gender non-conforming. It doesn't have to be like Rocket Science here. Look at some of the systems in Parenthood and maybe go from there. Maybe refresh Parenthood to sort of explore gender neutrality as children if the player chooses, I don't know.
I agree and I think in terms of adding meaningful gameplay an optional system would be a great idea, although ultimately it won’t change any of the current implications the team has regarding grammar / language. Adding pronoun options to CAS or having them added via a stand alone system makes no difference at the end of the day; all those text strings still need to be altered correctly once a pronoun has been identified for that sim.
I also think that maybe instead of English pronouns, they should just stay true to the Sims and create some Simlish words. It might be weird at first, but the Sims aren't actually real people so shouldn't they have something that makes sense in their world? It would be gibberish in all languages. I don't know if that's possible either, but I'm sort of just thinking out loud at this point.
YES! This makes most sense to me and I ain’t joking this time. So much for diversity and everyone just casually dismisses those poor poor sims themselves. They don’t speak our languages dang nugget! They speak their own!
How about:
Soosh = SHE/ HER/ HERS
Hoosh= HE/ HIM/ HIS
Noosh = THEY/ THEM/ THEIRS
Floosh= IT/ OTHER
Soosh talks
Hoosh talks
Noosh talks
Floosh talks.
Example:
John is happy, hoosh has just been promoted. (John identifies as male)
Jane is disgusted, soosh nooboo just smelled up floosh nappy. (Jane identifies as female and baby nooboo is an “it”, sorry about that babe).
Charlie goes to town with noosh friends. ( Charlie identifies as non-binary)
See? Simple? Yes.
Weird? Silly? Naturally. But it’s the SIMS, DOH!! 🤦🏻♂️
We should be able to use pronouns like any given first name. No need for the team to change grammar for each one. Add more pronouns if need be.
Sorted. No more nonsense. Respect those sims, whatever gender they identify with. Why miss this great opportunity with the only game it makes sense to. What? Was that even grammatically correct? Who knows. I’m confused. I’m a sim at heart. I speak gibberish most of the time.
And for those playing as sim-selfs, remember a sim self is a SIM self, which means you are SIMMIFIED in every aspect, including how ”you” communicate. If you can live with thought bubbles and teleportation and swirling around once to get dressed and twice to get dressed again, I’m sure you can live with simlish pronouns. I mean you just set the entire house on fire and you lived.
AND KEEP THE DARN MINISKIRTS IN THE FEMALE CATEGORY!! Too late. Oh well.
I love your suggestions! The real question is, how would they translate in other languages?
See, this is where I feel that bringing so much of the real world into The Sims has not only caused a myriad of complications, it has completely changed the type of game it is. It used to be a game where the player could exploit humanity but in a humorous and relatable way. The player was The Watcher, the hidden deity deciding if a Sim would have a good day or a bad day, spying and chortling, choosing to be malicious or benevolent. It wasn't personal because it drew the line at common and simple day to day life struggles that all humans go through. It didn't matter what the Sims looked like or acted like, they were all going to need to eat or starve to death. They needed social interaction, to use the bathroom, shower, and exist in a clean environment (or yes, that would kill them too, lol.) They all needed to make money to pay bills. They all faced obstacles. They all had to make progress toward their lifetime goals or they would have a meltdown. They all had preferences, potential for love, and a place in society. The game wasn't about what divides humanity or differentiates us but about what we have in common. It was about the simple struggles that unite us.
The Sims 4 is different because, in its quest to be inclusive, it has inadvertently shined a spotlight on division and what's not included, who isn't represented and how we differ. It has shifted the game from being the satire of an overall species, to being about the player and making it personal. And once you make it personal to the players, you are never going to get it right enough to please them because they all have different experiences and perceptions on life and many of those will clash mightily. It doesn't mean some are right and some are wrong, it just means that someone, somewhere, is always going to feel left out, which is kind of sad to think about.
I disagree. The Sims has always been personal to me, and many LGBT players have expressed the same. I've been playing since the Sims 1 and as soon as I realized that same-sex relationships were allowed, I made a household of four gay men. This was the year 2000 and they didn't allow same-sex marriage yet; while Sims 2 allowed "joining", actual marriage would come in Sims 3. But even allowing same-sex relationships was progressive for a video game at that time. Gender identity is separate from sexual orientation, but it is a natural progression for the Sims to acknowledge and expand representation in this area as well.
Representation is important. While Sims are not humans, they do represent us, and the cultures we live in cannot be separated from our basic needs.
BTW did Non-Binary Simmers ask for this or did someone else ask on their behalf, It's better if this idea came from someone from within that community rather than having an outsider suggest this option, Inclusively requires having people that you're trying to be inclusive towards involved, I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I'm just wondering if they got permission from non-binary folks first.
BTW did Non-Binary Simmers ask for this or did someone else ask on their behalf, It's better if this idea came from someone from within that community rather than having an outsider suggest this option, Inclusively requires having people that you're trying to be inclusive towards involved, I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I'm just wondering if they got permission from non-binary folks first.
I think it was Momo Misfortune who started the petition, and they're non-binary
BTW did Non-Binary Simmers ask for this or did someone else ask on their behalf, It's better if this idea came from someone from within that community rather than having an outsider suggest this option, Inclusively requires having people that you're trying to be inclusive towards involved, I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I'm just wondering if they got permission from non-binary folks first.
I think it was Momo Misfortune who started the petition, and they're non-binary
The gender neutral messages in this game really bums me out. But I was thinking that maybe they are trying to make everything gender neutral and then add proununs back in, if that makes any sense. Not sure if that would be easier or maybe the same amount of effort.
This before cars and babies update
The Agenda is real!!!🤔🙄
Representation should be a given for any game that flaunts inclusivity. I wouldn't call more inclusiveness an "agenda", do you think the skin tone update for expanded and more realistic sims of color was also part of an "agenda"?
I think this update was long due and I would also love it if they added even more diverse material for sims with disabilities like glasses, hearing aids, walking aids, etc.
Great! I have non-binary sims and it's irksome when they're called he or she. I'd like for us to have that option to select a pronoun just as we have the option to remove or add gender based restrictions in CAS. The restrictions are okay for my binary sims.
However, I am a binary-he. It is certainly important to hear from non-binary simmers. Personally, I believe it should not be up for political debate to treat all people with respect and civility. If a person does not wish to use the option because it interferes with their personal beliefs, another option to turn off the feature should be made available.
I always considered there being 3 biological sexes, Male, Female and Intersexed which is born with both sets of genitalia, it still feels wrong saying intersexed, can I go back to using the H word, but anyways then you throw in non-binary gender which is in itself an enigma, since they identity as neither gender or sex, I just hope they give Morgyn Ember the proper pronouns since they're the first Non-Binary Sim in existence.
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So, I think, if manually entering pronouns isn't going to work, they may well go down the route of having they/them/theirs pronouns for all sims in the notifications. I know that this isn't popular but I don't personally mind it (though as I already stated I think the first option would be the best way to go if possible). I use she/her pronouns, but I don't feel that using they/them/theirs for all sims would be exclusionary towards me because it's a pronoun which includes all genders and even I as a cisgender woman who uses she/her pronouns already can be referred to by they/them pronouns by people in everyday life e.g. if someone hadn't met me and so didn't know my gender they might refer to me by use of they/them pronouns - similarly, if game doesn't know the gender of a sim (because the player's idea of the sim's gender could fit into the common she/her or he/him boxes OR it could be more complex than allowed for by the game's mechanics) it can use they/them pronouns instead.
A third option would be that they will keep she/her, he/him pronouns and have they/them as an additional option for sims whose pronouns are not she/her or he/him... But this would leave out a whole bunch of pronouns as I already mentioned in the first paragraph.
It's a complicated issue and I don't know how they are going to handle it. Personally, it doesn't really matter to me what pronouns are used in the notifications in my game. I know what my sim's genders/pronouns are in my head and don't pay that much attention to the notifications anyway. But, I would be glad to see the game becoming more inclusive.
Vlad The Dad: A 100 Baby Challenge, Vlad as ‘matriarch’ *COMPLETE*
Breed Out The Weird *COMPLETE*
You have a good idea. Perhaps they could handle this like they handle the name of your Sim. Perhaps we could enter the pronoun we want (even if unknown to Maxis) and it be acceptable enough within the textual notifications. We enter any name we want for our Sims (except the gallery often censors some) and everyone could be called whatever they want to be called. They already have the system for a first name, why not for pronouns.
I guess my issue with making everything gender neutral is that I just don't understand why the game can't just recognize sex and gender identity. We are all born into a sex, that is just basic biology, miracle of life and evolution. Basic Male/female (for the most part). There is nothing offensive about that because it's reality. It's not until people get older with independent thought and the ability to compare and question perceptions, that's when identity comes into play and it's a continuing journey. It's not simple, it's not something one decides in a hot minute (I mean, they can, but it's always subject to change) and it's not something that's necessarily permanent. It's identity. It's deep, it's layered, it's multi-faceted and it's very, very personal. Identity goes beyond gender norms or challenges. There's also sexual identity, professional identity, and all kinds of other influences and environments that can add to self-perception. It just so happens that gender is what's being talked about the most these days, but realistically, that's not the be-all of a human entity. But even when one "identifies" as a gender that's not their birth sex, they are still going to be their birth sex. That's just your biology and your biology is still relevant for medical treatment and physical identification purposes. Your sex doesn't just disappear because you "identify" as another gender. They coexist, even if reluctantly so. (But that's an entirely different conversation.)
So what's wrong with the game continuing to recognize male/female sexes as the default? When babies are born, they don't burst out with an identity crisis, they just naturally exist. Why shouldn't Sims continue to be born into their sex, develop through their childhood, and put a separate optional system in place so that when they hit their, say, teens, there now comes into play some kind of secondary optional pronoun system where they can change how they are addressed? And as for NPCs and townies, just go by the default unless the developers create the Sims to be gender non-conforming. It doesn't have to be like Rocket Science here. Look at some of the systems in Parenthood and maybe go from there. Maybe refresh Parenthood to sort of explore gender neutrality as children if the player chooses, I don't know.
I really just want the male/female sex to continue/return to be recognized, even if just in a basic way for some game mechanics. Clothing and hair defaults for instance, but maybe add in a gender neutral category for special tagged designs intended for blurring the lines. The latest "Menswear" Kit just made things stop making sense because we have skirts under the "masculine" tag. I'm sorry, but mini skirts aren't a masculine design. See, we're already starting to get into the realm of murking up the categories and I really think, just for organizational and simplicity's sake, they should bring back Male/Female and add the non-binary tag. Allow us to have Clubs categorized by sex for crying out loud. Then, down the line, gender. Keep them as two separate things and I think people will be likely less confused and the game won't fall quite as much into chaos and argument. I also think that maybe instead of English pronouns, they should just stay true to the Sims and create some Simlish words. It might be weird at first, but the Sims aren't actually real people so shouldn't they have something that makes sense in their world? It would be gibberish in all languages. I don't know if that's possible either, but I'm sort of just thinking out loud at this point.
I agree and I think in terms of adding meaningful gameplay an optional system would be a great idea, although ultimately it won’t change any of the current implications the team has regarding grammar / language. Adding pronoun options to CAS or having them added via a stand alone system makes no difference at the end of the day; all those text strings still need to be altered correctly once a pronoun has been identified for that sim.
YES! This makes most sense to me and I ain’t joking this time. So much for diversity and everyone just casually dismisses those poor poor sims themselves. They don’t speak our languages dang nugget! They speak their own!
How about:
Soosh = SHE/ HER/ HERS
Hoosh= HE/ HIM/ HIS
Noosh = THEY/ THEM/ THEIRS
Floosh= IT/ OTHER
Soosh talks
Hoosh talks
Noosh talks
Floosh talks.
Example:
John is happy, hoosh has just been promoted. (John identifies as male)
Jane is disgusted, soosh nooboo just smelled up floosh nappy. (Jane identifies as female and baby nooboo is an “it”, sorry about that babe).
Charlie goes to town with noosh friends. ( Charlie identifies as non-binary)
See? Simple? Yes.
Weird? Silly? Naturally. But it’s the SIMS, DOH!! 🤦🏻♂️
We should be able to use pronouns like any given first name. No need for the team to change grammar for each one. Add more pronouns if need be.
Sorted. No more nonsense. Respect those sims, whatever gender they identify with. Why miss this great opportunity with the only game it makes sense to. What? Was that even grammatically correct? Who knows. I’m confused. I’m a sim at heart. I speak gibberish most of the time.
And for those playing as sim-selfs, remember a sim self is a SIM self, which means you are SIMMIFIED in every aspect, including how ”you” communicate. If you can live with thought bubbles and teleportation and swirling around once to get dressed and twice to get dressed again, I’m sure you can live with simlish pronouns. I mean you just set the entire house on fire and you lived.
AND KEEP THE DARN MINISKIRTS IN THE FEMALE CATEGORY!! Too late. Oh well.
Why do you say that sneakers, jeans and t-shirts is gender fluid? It's just comfy, no fuss, fashion suitable for a day out. With some people it might be difficult to tell gender and not because of their clothing, but most display other very obvious gender characteristics even if dressed in comfy sneakers, jeans and t-shirts.
Which does bring up a forum idea. @EA_Cade do you think being able to pick our pronoun on forums be helpful especially since many including myself have a gender neutral username?
I really love the idea of Simlish pronouns too and having it optional. It would help a lot with language barriers.
@CAPTAIN_NXR7 I really loved your words too and made sure to share them with the Gurus.
I love your suggestions! The real question is, how would they translate in other languages?
See, this is where I feel that bringing so much of the real world into The Sims has not only caused a myriad of complications, it has completely changed the type of game it is. It used to be a game where the player could exploit humanity but in a humorous and relatable way. The player was The Watcher, the hidden deity deciding if a Sim would have a good day or a bad day, spying and chortling, choosing to be malicious or benevolent. It wasn't personal because it drew the line at common and simple day to day life struggles that all humans go through. It didn't matter what the Sims looked like or acted like, they were all going to need to eat or starve to death. They needed social interaction, to use the bathroom, shower, and exist in a clean environment (or yes, that would kill them too, lol.) They all needed to make money to pay bills. They all faced obstacles. They all had to make progress toward their lifetime goals or they would have a meltdown. They all had preferences, potential for love, and a place in society. The game wasn't about what divides humanity or differentiates us but about what we have in common. It was about the simple struggles that unite us.
The Sims 4 is different because, in its quest to be inclusive, it has inadvertently shined a spotlight on division and what's not included, who isn't represented and how we differ. It has shifted the game from being the satire of an overall species, to being about the player and making it personal. And once you make it personal to the players, you are never going to get it right enough to please them because they all have different experiences and perceptions on life and many of those will clash mightily. It doesn't mean some are right and some are wrong, it just means that someone, somewhere, is always going to feel left out, which is kind of sad to think about.
It would take a Guru five minutes to post a Tweet letting us know if they are planning on replacing gendered pronouns with only neutral ones or adding neutral pronouns while keeping the gendered ones still.
@EA_Cade are you able to pass this along at all?
That is an interesting idea, I'll forward this up to our forum hosting provider. In the meantime, you're always welcome to utilize the signature space for this function.
This has been passed up the chain
I disagree. The Sims has always been personal to me, and many LGBT players have expressed the same. I've been playing since the Sims 1 and as soon as I realized that same-sex relationships were allowed, I made a household of four gay men. This was the year 2000 and they didn't allow same-sex marriage yet; while Sims 2 allowed "joining", actual marriage would come in Sims 3. But even allowing same-sex relationships was progressive for a video game at that time. Gender identity is separate from sexual orientation, but it is a natural progression for the Sims to acknowledge and expand representation in this area as well.
Representation is important. While Sims are not humans, they do represent us, and the cultures we live in cannot be separated from our basic needs.
I think it was Momo Misfortune who started the petition, and they're non-binary
Ok that's good.
The Agenda is real!!!🤔🙄
Yeah, I feel like there are more important things to focus on at the moment.
Like Werewolves, where are my werewolves?
I mean, It would lay some of the groundwork for intersex babies?
Representation should be a given for any game that flaunts inclusivity. I wouldn't call more inclusiveness an "agenda", do you think the skin tone update for expanded and more realistic sims of color was also part of an "agenda"?
I think this update was long due and I would also love it if they added even more diverse material for sims with disabilities like glasses, hearing aids, walking aids, etc.
However, I am a binary-he. It is certainly important to hear from non-binary simmers. Personally, I believe it should not be up for political debate to treat all people with respect and civility. If a person does not wish to use the option because it interferes with their personal beliefs, another option to turn off the feature should be made available.