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@developers, consider bringing back the mood meter and traditional traits? Scrap the emotion system.
PosterGirl
Posts: 641 Member
After playing the sims 4 since toddlers were released, I've realized how much fun I have been having. Although it's fun,it definitely has flaws.
Besides some of the missing features that many, including myself, were complaining about years ago, one thing has stuck out to me as to what is wrong with the sims 4. Emotions...
It just really occurred to me that both ts3 and ts4 took away the five (mandatory) personality traits: shy/outgoing, grouchy/nice, serious/playful, sloppy/neat, and lazy/active. The mood meter was removed from ts4 but if I recall correctly, it was in ts3.
The original personality traits:
Please consider re-adding those five traditional personality traits. I understand that, yes you can choose these traits individually, but it makes sense to have them as a core traits that are mandatory to have.
Why? In real life, don't we all have one of these traits naturally, no matter who you are as a person? You're either one or the other, and if not fully, you definitely lean towards either or. By adding these traits back in as default, I think it will give the sims their personalities back.
How? The five original traits shy/outgoing, grouchy/nice, serious/playful, sloppy/neat, and lazy/active should be core traits on a scale of 1 to 10 and must be chosen. These five categories of traits will help define how sims behave on a deeper level. Secondary traits should be something like what we have seen with ts3 and ts4, for example: music lover, hopeless romance, family-oriented, etc and up to 3 to 5 can be chosen. Finally, one tertiary trait could stem from completing the lifetime aspiration.
As of now, there is a handful of traits that can be picked from, however the sims are still dull and nothing bad really happens. This brings me to the topic of emotions...
Sims and their emotions, or lack thereof:
I like the idea of emotions, but it feels like the sims do not display or react according to how they're truly feeling. I think the emotions system should either be scrapped or reworked. Why? Because they override true traits way too much and the emotions do not last for long.
I can recall one time that my sim became angry BUT, she really wasn't angry because she had too many happy emotions stacked up, outweighing the angry emotion. Not only that, but it's far to easy to manipulate the emotions and recover from being angry, sad, tense, etc. I can understand a sim being tense for about four hours and getting rid of it via yoga or tub, but not angry or sad. If my sim just got cheated on, they should be angry or sad, maybe both for quite some time without any other emotion overriding that. For about 10 seconds they might be feeling happy, next thing you know they're focused, then back to happy, etc. it's just too much flip flopping all within a short time frame. This is why I think the mood meter should also be brought back and not emotions.
Something else I've noticed is that sims are always happy go lucky. Not many random fights or bickering, no real grumpy sims or rejections from romantic interactions all because that sim might not be shy. This goes back to those core traits. If you haven't chosen nice or mean, then they are just robots and neutral to everything in how they act towards events, environment, and other sims.
I want sims that have unique personalities, like grouchy ones who are mean spirited and will slap a sim silly that happens to love music, cooking, and any other secondary traits I might have for them. I want me sims to remember that something terrible happened and get upset about it when they see another sim that caused it.
Maybe a temporary emotion can be created so that, if a sim does get angry, it's stickies to the side and won't go away for many in-game hours or days (depending on what happened), or until they get an apology (for cheating or fighting). Sims with their core trait regarding mean to nice set at like a 1, being closest to mean with an extra secondary mean trait (making them very mean) might not except apologies.
I do not expect anyone to agree with my feedback, but maybe this can solve the issue of boring personalities. It doesn't matter how many eps, gps, or sps are added (although it helps expand gameplay and is needed too), if sims themselves are boring then the rest is or gets dull too.
TLDR;
Re-introduce the five original (mandatory) traits from the sims 1/2, while keeping unique traits from ts3/4, and expand it with a tertiary trait category.
Example: outgoing (8/10), active (8/10), grumpy (2/10), neat (5/10), playful (6/10) that loves music and cooking. Might get a great chef trait from reaching highest promotion at job as a special tertiary trait.
Bring the mood meter back and scrap the emotions due to emotions overriding traits.. not really contributing truly to how the sims feel. Sims might display they're angry but aren't actually showing it.
Link for further reading on personalities:
http://sims.wikia.com/wiki/Personality
Edit: it's been a long time but those five personalities are referred to as "qualities"
Edit: Tagging some gurus, food for thought...
@SIMGURUHYDRA
@SIMGURUDRAKE
@SIMGURULYNDSAY
@SimGuruGraham
Besides some of the missing features that many, including myself, were complaining about years ago, one thing has stuck out to me as to what is wrong with the sims 4. Emotions...
It just really occurred to me that both ts3 and ts4 took away the five (mandatory) personality traits: shy/outgoing, grouchy/nice, serious/playful, sloppy/neat, and lazy/active. The mood meter was removed from ts4 but if I recall correctly, it was in ts3.
The original personality traits:
Please consider re-adding those five traditional personality traits. I understand that, yes you can choose these traits individually, but it makes sense to have them as a core traits that are mandatory to have.
Why? In real life, don't we all have one of these traits naturally, no matter who you are as a person? You're either one or the other, and if not fully, you definitely lean towards either or. By adding these traits back in as default, I think it will give the sims their personalities back.
How? The five original traits shy/outgoing, grouchy/nice, serious/playful, sloppy/neat, and lazy/active should be core traits on a scale of 1 to 10 and must be chosen. These five categories of traits will help define how sims behave on a deeper level. Secondary traits should be something like what we have seen with ts3 and ts4, for example: music lover, hopeless romance, family-oriented, etc and up to 3 to 5 can be chosen. Finally, one tertiary trait could stem from completing the lifetime aspiration.
As of now, there is a handful of traits that can be picked from, however the sims are still dull and nothing bad really happens. This brings me to the topic of emotions...
Sims and their emotions, or lack thereof:
I like the idea of emotions, but it feels like the sims do not display or react according to how they're truly feeling. I think the emotions system should either be scrapped or reworked. Why? Because they override true traits way too much and the emotions do not last for long.
I can recall one time that my sim became angry BUT, she really wasn't angry because she had too many happy emotions stacked up, outweighing the angry emotion. Not only that, but it's far to easy to manipulate the emotions and recover from being angry, sad, tense, etc. I can understand a sim being tense for about four hours and getting rid of it via yoga or tub, but not angry or sad. If my sim just got cheated on, they should be angry or sad, maybe both for quite some time without any other emotion overriding that. For about 10 seconds they might be feeling happy, next thing you know they're focused, then back to happy, etc. it's just too much flip flopping all within a short time frame. This is why I think the mood meter should also be brought back and not emotions.
Something else I've noticed is that sims are always happy go lucky. Not many random fights or bickering, no real grumpy sims or rejections from romantic interactions all because that sim might not be shy. This goes back to those core traits. If you haven't chosen nice or mean, then they are just robots and neutral to everything in how they act towards events, environment, and other sims.
I want sims that have unique personalities, like grouchy ones who are mean spirited and will slap a sim silly that happens to love music, cooking, and any other secondary traits I might have for them. I want me sims to remember that something terrible happened and get upset about it when they see another sim that caused it.
Maybe a temporary emotion can be created so that, if a sim does get angry, it's stickies to the side and won't go away for many in-game hours or days (depending on what happened), or until they get an apology (for cheating or fighting). Sims with their core trait regarding mean to nice set at like a 1, being closest to mean with an extra secondary mean trait (making them very mean) might not except apologies.
I do not expect anyone to agree with my feedback, but maybe this can solve the issue of boring personalities. It doesn't matter how many eps, gps, or sps are added (although it helps expand gameplay and is needed too), if sims themselves are boring then the rest is or gets dull too.
TLDR;
Re-introduce the five original (mandatory) traits from the sims 1/2, while keeping unique traits from ts3/4, and expand it with a tertiary trait category.
Example: outgoing (8/10), active (8/10), grumpy (2/10), neat (5/10), playful (6/10) that loves music and cooking. Might get a great chef trait from reaching highest promotion at job as a special tertiary trait.
Bring the mood meter back and scrap the emotions due to emotions overriding traits.. not really contributing truly to how the sims feel. Sims might display they're angry but aren't actually showing it.
Link for further reading on personalities:
http://sims.wikia.com/wiki/Personality
Edit: it's been a long time but those five personalities are referred to as "qualities"
Edit: Tagging some gurus, food for thought...
@SIMGURUHYDRA
@SIMGURUDRAKE
@SIMGURULYNDSAY
@SimGuruGraham
Post edited by PosterGirl on
40
Comments
But I do think personality desperately needs an overhaul, and while I expect massive things from TS5 in this area, I think TS4 can patch in sufficient fixes for now. It will have to start with a completely re-envisioned trait system, and I think the commonly shared idea of having 'trait points' assigned to each trait is a great idea!
I do think TS2 hit the nail on the head as far as personality and AI of Sims go. The mood meter relied on keeping your Sims happy through servicing their wants and avoiding their fears, which, to me, made sense. if you let it go too low, they'd fall into various stages of depression. This meant shorter lifespan, and varying effects on their emotions, if you let it get that bad.
I'm copying this chart I posted in my thread, because I think it sufficiently explains where TS4 gets it wrong. This is Maslow's hierarchy of needs -- it's a theory composed by psychologist Abraham Maslow that suggested we are motivated to achieve certain needs within our lifetime.
TS4 has everything but self-actualization. In other words, our Sims can die without a care in the world about the fact they did not achieve their goals, or even anything for that matter. This maybe makes sense in a sandbox mode, but in a life simulator GAME, it does not work. There needs to be consequence (which doesn't always mean a bad thing for us creative players), and there needs to be far more detail and complexity to our Sims' personality and AI.
In The Sims 2, self-actualization meant your Sim achieving their life time goal. They'd then be in a state of transcendence, with a permanent, platinum plumbob for that Sim, thus preventing them from ever getting depressed. The Sims 4 should copy this, but perhaps let us dictate more specifically what we'd like our Sims to accomplish in their lifetime, or even have it be up to them.
Traits just don't work very well to define their personality/behaviour. In addition to your ideas I think traits should determine their interests and chemistry, who they get on with etc
Of course, I doubt the system will be changed
I've come to the same conclusion as the OP, and I agree entirely. Bring the personality points back!
You're absolutely right! TS4 sims do not seem to care about their life goals... strange being that it's more goal-oriented and rpgish. Come to think of it, i've seen TS4 sims pee on themselves and nobody really seemed to care. Remember when they 🐸🐸🐸🐸 on themselves in TS2 and everybody would stop and either laugh and joke about it, or show sympathy? It's like they are just going through the motions like robots, kind of reminds me of the stepford Wives lol.
Also, I love your idea in your thread, it's like bringing points back with the new system of how they've done vampires.
It's been so long since I've played any sims game, so I completely forgot about interests. I think interests would also add some flavor as well as the turn on and turn offs. I miss the chemistry that sims shared with others when they were a match, it made the game interesting. I wouldn't mind having zodiac signs return either, that can play into personalities as well.
I hope the point system returns as well. Even if not on a 1 to 10 type of thing, maybe at least force us to choose from those five core traits and then proceed to pick your five or so secondary traits to compliment the overall personality. I think it would be a great way to expand on the personality instead of just taking away.
EDIt: oh, and i want my sloppy sims to burp and fart. I have not seen one sim do this in TS4, although I've read that frank and beans can give them gas sometimes.
I always miss the platimum white looking plumbob (well, I still do play TS2, but I miss that it doesn't exist for TS4). Would be awesome If they at least go with a blue plumbob in this latest iteration.
Thank you, it would explain why most sims seem so neutral, neither being exactly mean or nice, shy or outgoing, etc. They're just in the default range if you don't pick either of the two opposing core traits that we used to have.
But the line of thought does make me think of something: TS4 Sims have little in the way of self-conscious behavior/thought. With the exception of one of the Vampire weaknesses (which is, in essence, an occasional existential sadness moodlet), and a few actions that can lead to temporary Embarrassment, Sims don't really have any worries or concerns or awareness about life and existence.
Which could be a good thing since it's a game. But if they ever add a Fear emotion, that may lay the groundwork for both giving Sims more of these types of problems and giving them ways to solve them. Because let's be real, most existential hangups in life are rooted in fear in some way.
Personally, I think the idea of a permanent plumbob that prevents the Sim from ever getting depressed as a reward for completing a life time goal (I'm assuming in this game, it would translate to Sad) is just misleading about life and the accomplishment of goals. There's no such thing as reaching a state of mind where you are immune to certain emotions. And if the goal is to portray sims personalities in a manner that is more true to life, I don't think that is the way.
Agree with all of these points! TS4 sims would need to get back fears and memories to become as self-aware as TS2 sims were. I remember how they used to really truly remember what had happened in their life, and they'd recall it and talk about it with other sims. Like if they'd just had a baby, or had been cheated on, or got a promotion, or a loved one died. All of those topics would come up in their conversations like they were ever-present in their minds.
TS4 sims, however, can't remember anything at all once the moodlet wears off (which is usually far too quickly).
OMG and I miss aspiration failure! That was the best thing ever, lol!
- They had varying degrees of certain characteristics, and their behaviour changed based on that (super playful sims couldn't meditate, for example). The was a wide range of combinations possible for each sim
- They had fears and desires, based on their aspirations, which helped with the goals of the game but at the same time felt natural withing the game. Their fears and desires helped shape them on a daily basis within the game.
- They had memories, and those memories were actually quite complex (so much that they were one of the reason the game could break, depending on what you did - such as deleting sims). They influenced your sims mood - if they had too many bad memories recently, their aspiration meter would go down faster. They also remembered situations upon seeing other sims, triggering reactions. They would gossip based on what they heard from other sims.
- They had interests that influenced in the way they would talk to other sims, if they interests were too diverging, building a relationship was harder, as they had nothing to talk about without disagreeing of getting bored... you know, like in real life.
This was just the base game. Later on, you could pile on top of that:
- Turn on's and turn off's
- Hobbies
It's quite surprising how a game made more than a decade ago could give such an impressive illusion of simulated personalities. I think they actually had very good ideas and a very good game design. I wished they had worked and added on top of what they had, instead of throwing almost everything away and just keeping the bones.
For example, I've been playing Don for the last couple of hours and the only two things about him that stand out are his sloppiness and his outgoing behaviour because he's always leaving a mess and his social need depletes faster. His aspiration, I think, contributes a lot to his character, but this is only a series of goals he has to complete to stay happy. He won't do these tasks on his own and apart from other Sims doing the attracted hand wave animation, there's nothing about this system that affects his demeanour, except maybe the few failure states.
This is not a criticism of this system, I do like it, but the system we have now, while flawed, does work and produces unique Sims just like in TS2. For example, active Sims in TS4 will become energised, motivating them to work out more, which allows them to gain fitness faster and they can energise other people by "pep talking" and get annoyed if they don't work out often enough. Contrast this with an active TS2 Sim and they will deplete energy slower, enjoy working out and gain fitness skill/physique faster and will complain when they have to do a "lazy" activity, though I'm only aware of watching TV causing this reaction. I don't really see a huge difference in complexity here, though I may be missing some things!
I think the problem with TS4 traits is they are mostly tied to emotions and lacking autonomous behaviour. The emotional buffs from traits have the tendency to be overshadowed by other buffs. There needs to be more autonomous behaviour tied into the traits. I hear a lot on these forums how bookworms hardly read books and active Sims will spend hours on the computer. These are things that need to be fixed.
Additionally, I don't think the personality point system should have been scrapped, but rather improved. I too believe it should have been complemented by traits. Funny thing is, a Guru talked about why they scrapped the system and apparently it was confusing. If it was confusing, I think it should have been simplified rather than scrapped. What I like about it is how it covers the underlying basics of Sims and the environments of the game. While the points may not be a reflection of individuals in real life, they at least covered everything a Sim would, and still does, encounter in the game. For example, your Sim had to be neat, so-so, or sloppy. This affected how they would deal with the mess they were guaranteed to experience in the game. In TS4, if you don't choose a neat or sloppy Sim, they clean everything no questions asked. The point I'm trying to make here, while my dinner is cooking, is that personalities, like the PP system did, should cover how Sims react to everything in their environment.
Here's the link talking about the transition from PP to traits:
http://www.raymazza.com/game-design
I like the game (now, I never used to before toddlers) but it does need a tune up.
--T
I think TS2 was just rather limited in the way to get to self-actualization. If the system were to be recreated today, I think there are more things that they could do with achieving self-actualization other than maxing a career. Maybe we'd have to succeed in various aspects of life such as friendships, romance, careers, skills, etc. all at once, or something of the sort.
I agree, and the fact that TS4 Sims have little self-consciousness and awareness of their environment is something that bothers me, as this, in itself, really negates calling them the wisest, most intelligent Sims we've ever had. Self-consciousness and ability to react to one's environment are two major components of intelligence.
It is a game, but it's a game that sets out to simulate life. And, I think if that is what its goal truly is, then we should have the most life-like beings to play and experiment with.
To me, it translates that the Sim accepts things as they are; all problems of the world that have happened and will continue to occur. IMO, that fits with the many versions of self-actualization I've heard of, stemming from all different cultures.
These Sims are definitely the smartest of the lot, but as you point out definitely not the most self aware,
They do react appropriately for a given situation but that don't seem to have memories that last beyond the moment.
So if you carry out a mean interaction toward a Sim the Sim will repsond appropriately but too often that repsonse is just a one off...
The next moment all seems forgotton and they carry on acting out these one off scenarios which seem to carry with them no lasting consequence.
When I say these Sims are the smartest, I mean that they make better autonomous decisions than previous Sims.
That combined with the far superior routing makes them appear a heck of a lot smarter than older versions....but as far as self awareness I have to agrree they seem a bit lacking.
They programmed in the appropriate responses, but apparantly didn't have time to flesh it out any further.
As side note
Having and maintaining relationships (friends) was a critcal component to career advancement in both Sims 1 & 2
It's one of those things that quietly disappeared in TS3 without much fanfare.
I honestly have to say that the s3 sims are the smartest of the lot. I haven't had one die because they were too busy socialising to death like they do in 4. They do tend to their needs. I even fell asleep playing S2 and left it running (Yes I meant 2: using it for comparison reasons). When I awoke, they were all good to go. They took care of themselves. I tried S4 again and had to quit because not a single sim was tending to any of their needs without my direction, and they were all still hopping into bed around 6-7 pm and appeared to be the dumbest of the lot. They weren't even tired. They didn't need to socialize. They were hungry, had to pee, and were dirty. Didn't tend to a single need other than going to bed when other motives were far lower. Smart. No.
But that's not really what I wanted to touch upon. It's the bolded part that has annoyed me most in all the games. Even S3 pushes for it, but it is forgiving of it, nonetheless.
As someone who is in a high position, it is actually frowned upon to befriend your co-coworkers. It shows favouritism and causes animosity among staff, as well as putting me in a position of lacking integrity. Social media also puts me in a delicate position if I'm not careful. It's why I avoid both. Having friends does not help you advance. I've actually seen it have the opposite affect many times. The more friends you have at work puts you in a negative light for advancement. Socializing and schmoozing, however, can have a positive result, but one must always be careful about what they say and who they befriend. Charisma goes a long way, but friends do not.
I really do wish they would tone down the social aspects of the game, but instead, it goes farther from being a life simulator to a more advanced social media generator.
I had completely forgotten about the Platinum Plumbob! I would love to see it back too or a blue iteration like you've suggested here. Also want to see a better system of personality traits affecting our Sims behavior so that they appear to be distinctly different personalities from one another. We also need an addition of "Chemistry Attraction" to make pairing up our sims more realistic for marriages and partnerships.
INFJ -A/-T
They need a system where the mood of a sim is not flipping around too much. I hate the way they suddenly become confident after eating with chopstick or suddenly becomes playful just because they have goofy trait. (I really prefer them to do everything in a goofy way than having them being in a playful mood in random time.)
EA needs to hold a competition to brainstorm the new emotion system, choose a few potential winner and have the actual winner be voted by players. Unless they have someone in developer team capable of thinking of a way for how they should re-work their emotion system.
I also love the emotional system in Sims 4 xd
I like it too. It does need some refining, though. It hasn't really changed much since release despite there being heaps of feedback on it.
Repose en paix mamie tu va me manquer :
1923-2016 mamie
A start could be the reintroduction of fears, desires, memories and a truly lifetime aspiration that affect the whole life of that sim.