Bring back the drama and complexity of earlier sims games and also give our sims new , fresh ways of expressing themselves and their character.Thats all we want EA ! Not just pixels that do what we tell them to. But also Colorful, interesting sims
i'm gonna attribute the boringness and predictability to the thousands of people demanding the same content, over and over, and over again.
This.
People wanted toddlers, not personality.
People want laundry, not memories.
People want time wasted developing preteens and preschoolers, rather than effort be put into making sims more individual and interesting.
It'd be nice if there was a gp or ep that was about memories, hobbies, interests and individuality.
Pretty inaccurate. Lots of people want both, or the latter more. I know I would personally love an expansion pack that expands Sim intelligence over an expansion that adds anything else.
In fact, I'd say the reason of TS4's direction to be so based around Sims themselves and their personalities, was a direct result of people begging for it on TS3's forums. LOTS of people complained that TS3 Sims act like robots, unlike their predecessor Sims in TS2, and have asked time and time again for smarter, more expressive Sims. That's what TS4 has set out to do, but some still feel they haven't quite hit the mark.
@Sk8rblaze I relate so much to the part about sims in 3 , feeling robotic to players. That is very true. And I couldn't connect with that game because of it.
i'm gonna attribute the boringness and predictability to the thousands of people demanding the same content, over and over, and over again.
This.
People wanted toddlers, not personality.
People want laundry, not memories.
People want time wasted developing preteens and preschoolers, rather than effort be put into making sims more individual and interesting.
It'd be nice if there was a gp or ep that was about memories, hobbies, interests and individuality.
Pretty inaccurate. Lots of people want both, or the latter more. I know I would personally love an expansion pack that expands Sim intelligence over an expansion that adds anything else.
In fact, I'd say the reason of TS4's direction to be so based around Sims themselves and their personalities, was a direct result of people begging for it on TS3's forums. LOTS of people complained that TS3 Sims act like robots, unlike their predecessor Sims in TS2, and have asked time and time again for smarter, more expressive Sims. That's what TS4 has set out to do, but some still feel they haven't quite hit the mark.
I think you are right. I find it hard to get excited over a game object that does something that makes me smile for a moment and then I never look at it again. Bit like getting a novelty Christmas card - hmmm, better not give 'em ideas
I have a tiny ray of hope for something like your expansion idea. The groups/club system in GT took me completely by surprise and I have found it adds significantly to my game. Again, I find the whole club configuration system aimed at a primary/elementary school level. Where's our boolean operators - AND, NOT, OR? Maybe, just maybe we may get an expansion that does something equally surprising that provides more depth in a similar way.
Again, the addition of elements in patches and packs into the club system is patchy. No feed activity for vampires, for example.
Awake.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity.... The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
thanks for the topic OP. i agree wholeheartedly that the game would be much better if traits actually worked, sims actually had individual personalities, memories, etc that actually effected how they interacted socially with other sims.
i could be totally wrong, and wouldn't be surprised if i am. lol my impression when i first started playing TS4 was that the game was a lot more simplified than previous versions and had taken a huge step backward, instead of forward.
playing games on smart phones and tablets has become very popular. it seemed to me that TS4 was simplified to make it playable across all these platforms in addition to on a pc.
this is my impression and i could be way off base here. would love to hear others ideas about this.
i'm gonna attribute the boringness and predictability to the thousands of people demanding the same content, over and over, and over again.
This.
People wanted toddlers, not personality.
People want laundry, not memories.
People want time wasted developing preteens and preschoolers, rather than effort be put into making sims more individual and interesting.
It'd be nice if there was a gp or ep that was about memories, hobbies, interests and individuality.
yes please I think there working on it stuff like that takes time
I'm not going to hold my breath.
They seem to be pretty stingy when it comes to any enhancements to existing mechanics so far - think of how many aspirations or new basic traits we have had since the game was released.
The aspirations are so boring and limited. By now, there should be a lot more. I also hate the new system and preferred the one from Sims 2, where their aspiration was a meaningful part of who they were .If their lifelong dreams werent met they could have a nervous breakdown lol. I want more aspirations , but aspirations don't really even matter now. The game needs consequences and rewards also for making our sims happy and not just the reward objects.
Again, I am surprised over the neglect of aspirations. Not sure if it was this thread or another one, I argued that aspirations should be the prime driver of a sim with traits determining how that aspiration is approached and that traits should determine reactive behaviour based on emotions triggered by situational/environmental factors. The game does do this to some extent, but it just isn't joined up and some parts are simply not connected. The fact that a sim can have multiple aspirations is also pretty cool. The base is there!
Awake.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity.... The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
i'm gonna attribute the boringness and predictability to the thousands of people demanding the same content, over and over, and over again.
This.
People wanted toddlers, not personality.
People want laundry, not memories.
People want time wasted developing preteens and preschoolers, rather than effort be put into making sims more individual and interesting.
It'd be nice if there was a gp or ep that was about memories, hobbies, interests and individuality.
yes please I think there working on it stuff like that takes time
I'm not going to hold my breath.
They seem to be pretty stingy when it comes to any enhancements to existing mechanics so far - think of how many aspirations or new basic traits we have had since the game was released.
The aspirations are so boring and dumb. I also hate the new system and preferred the one from Sims 2, where their aspiration was a meaningful part of who they were .If their lifelong dreams werent met they could have a nervous breakdown lol. I want more aspirations , but aspirations don't really even matter now. The game needs consequences and rewards also for making our sims happy and not just the reward objects.
I definitely agree with that. Aspirations and whims feel entirely useless because of the fact they are optional, and their rewards don't feel like they hold any significance within a game that is already VERY simple and easy to "win."
Sims 2 got it right. The aspiration and wants/fears system was mandatory, and it, too, had rewards which significantly made dealing with these systems much easier. In fact, completing an aspiration in TS2, which takes a pretty long time, ends up leaving your Sim in a "nirvana" state of mind, meaning the aspiration system can never leave your Sim depressed again. Of course, this didn't mean they couldn't feel depressed from other factors (break up, etc.)
Ah whims. I really want to like whims and sometimes I do, but they are irritating aren't they? I am not sure what they can do with them really, without adding significant complexity. Be nice if the inappropriate ones were eradicated, but I suspect doing that for them now will be a bit like playing whack-a-mole.
Not sure if I would want them mandatory. If the game offered strategy game level game setup options, then I would definitely like to see it in there.
Awake.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity.... The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
thanks for the topic OP. i agree wholeheartedly that the game would be much better if traits actually worked, sims actually had individual personalities, memories, etc that actually effected how they interacted socially with other sims.
i could be totally wrong, and wouldn't be surprised if i am. lol my impression when i first started playing TS4 was that the game was a lot more simplified than previous versions and had taken a huge step backward, instead of forward.
playing games on smart phones and tablets has become very popular. it seemed to me that TS4 was simplified to make it playable across all these platforms in addition to on a pc.
this is my impression and i could be way off base here. would love to hear others ideas about this.
No thank you for participating I really would like to see this game improve for all of us @luvdasims55
thanks for the topic OP. i agree wholeheartedly that the game would be much better if traits actually worked, sims actually had individual personalities, memories, etc that actually effected how they interacted socially with other sims.
i could be totally wrong, and wouldn't be surprised if i am. lol my impression when i first started playing TS4 was that the game was a lot more simplified than previous versions and had taken a huge step backward, instead of forward.
playing games on smart phones and tablets has become very popular. it seemed to me that TS4 was simplified to make it playable across all these platforms in addition to on a pc.
this is my impression and i could be way off base here. would love to hear others ideas about this.
The UI alone reeks to high heaven of portable device intention or influence
Awake.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity.... The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
The big difficulty I see is that starting with Sims 3 and now even more with Sims 4, there has been a shift from challenge/time management/restrictions to storytelling. As long as the Sims series is intends to serve the storytelling demographic, we will not get the depth of character the OP is seeking. Because depth of character is in a large part, based on restriction.
For example, in Sims 2 the Lifetime Want was randomly chosen and the player could not change it without jumping through hoops. In Sims 3, the player could select from a group of Lifetime Wish depending upon traits. In Sims 4, you can select any Aspiration at any time, no matter the sims's traits. And ironically, it's that ability to choose that detracts from the depth. If any sim can do anything at any time, then it's solely up to the player to assign depth.
This is similar to the discussion in another thread about how the parents scolding their children is not autonomous, and that was immersion-breaking. The answer some gave in that thread was that the player determines what kind of parent they want their sims to be. Storytelling, not sim-led challenges.
I agree I would like to see more depth and I think updating the whim/aspiration system would go a long way toward that. I personally would prefer an aspiration system somewhere between Sims 2 and Sims 3. The Sims 3 had more meaningful wishes, and the Sims 2 fear/aspiration loss mechanic was great.
However, with the Sims 4 they apparently originally meant for whims to be optional (hence the term "whims" not "wants" or "wishes"). I made a comment in another thread about how I wanted the return of the Sims 2 fear system, and someone replied they didn't want the game telling them what their sims wanted, or how to play their game, they want to decide what their sims wanted. Again, it's the storytelling approach. As long as that is a predominant aim, even with more and more interactions, there won't be the depth. Because, in my opinion, ironically, depth originates from having some restriction. And this game has been moving towards eliminating restrictions.
I really like the way you put this you hit the nail on the head. Sorry for the late response on it. I actually had to go do real stuff but had started to reply to this but didn't have time to post it.
I'm the type of player you are talking about... a storyteller for the most part. I don't completely agree it's based on restriction but probably only because in my mind that phrasing has a bad connotation. *yeah I read part of that wrong*
I see it as choice and player control.. but it boils down to the same thing basically. I also do like aspirations as they are now.. and the whims for the reasons you stated. I don't want the game controlling what my sim wants (Sims 2 wants and needs) and having them tail spin because they don't get it, or having to race against the clock to make sure they are in a great state physically or emotionally or they fail. I don't even see how those things would add depth for me. I do see others points better now on how this makes them feel like the game is more shallow because of it even if I don't want this for the game.
I definitely don't think they have no depth and that they are very shallow though. I guess it's looking at it from a different angle. Even though my favorite way to play is when I'm feeling up to storytelling. I do play it more loosely often.. either to watch them autonomously with some guidance or task oriented play. I've played for thousands of hours and am often surprised by what happens and their reactions. Different combinations of traits and long term play.. including skilling your sims up and developing/training them some does show them acting differently in various situations to me. It's like you start with a blank slate and it's up to you to fill it out. If you let them do all the filling how they chose to.. they might not go in the direction you expect. They seem to be more attracted to the items they skill in and interact with regularly. So it can make them seem like they are all alike if you don't guide them to what you want and keep them away from stuff in the beginning. Say they play on the cell phone because you as the player didn't give them anything else fun to do. They build up the gaming skill and therefore become more attracted to it no matter what traits they have. If you just leave them to talk and don't cancel these things out they might build up the skills that come with that and be more apt to do those things. I think a lot of it is learning how to play it.. and I'm not trying to be a jerk about that. Some of the nuances come out if you've steered your sim in different directions than what they might do on their own in a big household. Now I'm not saying it's deep and intricate and I do think I give my sims more character through my imaginings of them, but there is more there than meets the eye.. Sometimes I play dispassionately and what they do sometimes shakes me up a bit, because it is so unexpected and is very different from the most common and usually gut reaction complaints I see on the forum.
I never learned how to play Sims 3. I tried when it came out and I tried again a few years ago @JoAnne65 pictures and obvious love for the game basically lead me to buy it the second time (with the packs the starter game comes with now). I still just couldn't get into it... and never learned to play it or see it's depth. I'm not denying it has depth but because the Sims has gone through so many changes I think it's easy to hold on to and expect it to be a certain way. This one isn't perfect for me but it's closer than it's ever come and I think if it went more toward what I believe other people are asking for I'd be one of those players feeling left out.
I agree!
The traits in this game are less important.
In TS3 traits had way more effects and influence on gameplay that just influencing Emotions.
For Example this is the influence on gameplay of the 'Genius' trait in TS3:
Geniuses will learn the Logic skill 30% faster than other Sims.
Geniuses enjoy playing chess and will improve at it quickly.
Geniuses learn Mooch, Chess, Hacking, and Dominoes[TS3:ST]hidden skills 30% faster.
When a Sim in the household dies Genius Sims can "Play Chess for (Sim Name)'s life."
Sim can solve crazy mathematical problems on the computer for cash. This will also raise their Fun motive slowly as well as slightly raising their Logic skill.
Geniuses will do better at Law Enforcement, Science and Medical careers.
Geniuses will autonomously "Contemplate" their surroundings. This may sometimes incur the Fascinated moodlet for 3 hours.
Geniuses can create pixelized paintings using Paint Stylized Still-Life.
Genius Sims will praise their children more often for doing their homework, much like Family-Oriented Sims.
Geniuses can initiate "Deep Conversations" at any point in a relationship and they enjoy them more.
Provides a bonus to Sims writing in the Science Fiction genre.
Provides a bonus to Sims writing in the Mystery genre.
NPCs with this trait are attracted to the following lot assignments: Library.
Toddlers with this trait will learn their toddler skills faster than other Sims.
Geniuses are unaffected by the quest action "Convince (Genius's Name) that the Sky is Falling".
Genius Sims benefit from all majors in college.
Related Skills
...And this is the 'Genius' trait in TS4:
Genius Sims will randomly get the "Feeling Focused" moodlet.
Genius Sims will get the "Unchallenged" moodlet if they haven't used mentally-stimulating interactions.
Genius Sims can Share Brilliant Ideas with other Sims and Reveal Brilliant Invention to other Sims.
I don't have any words. The TS4 traits haven't got much influence on gameplay.
I agree!
The traits in this game are less important.
In TS3 traits had way more effects and influence on gameplay that just influencing Emotions.
For Example this is the influence on gameplay of the 'Genius' trait in TS3:
Geniuses will learn the Logic skill 30% faster than other Sims.
Geniuses enjoy playing chess and will improve at it quickly.
Geniuses learn Mooch, Chess, Hacking, and Dominoes[TS3:ST]hidden skills 30% faster.
When a Sim in the household dies Genius Sims can "Play Chess for (Sim Name)'s life."
Sim can solve crazy mathematical problems on the computer for cash. This will also raise their Fun motive slowly as well as slightly raising their Logic skill.
Geniuses will do better at Law Enforcement, Science and Medical careers.
Geniuses will autonomously "Contemplate" their surroundings. This may sometimes incur the Fascinated moodlet for 3 hours.
Geniuses can create pixelized paintings using Paint Stylized Still-Life.
Genius Sims will praise their children more often for doing their homework, much like Family-Oriented Sims.
Geniuses can initiate "Deep Conversations" at any point in a relationship and they enjoy them more.
Provides a bonus to Sims writing in the Science Fiction genre.
Provides a bonus to Sims writing in the Mystery genre.
NPCs with this trait are attracted to the following lot assignments: Library.
Toddlers with this trait will learn their toddler skills faster than other Sims.
Geniuses are unaffected by the quest action "Convince (Genius's Name) that the Sky is Falling".
Genius Sims benefit from all majors in college.
Related Skills
...And this is the 'Genius' trait in TS4:
Genius Sims will randomly get the "Feeling Focused" moodlet.
Genius Sims will get the "Unchallenged" moodlet if they haven't used mentally-stimulating interactions.
Genius Sims can Share Brilliant Ideas with other Sims and Reveal Brilliant Invention to other Sims.
I don't have any words. The TS4 traits haven't got much influence on gameplay.
I came to the game with 4 and I do like my genius sims. After reading the above, I am am just depressed
The creative painters are the powerhouse sim of sims 4 as painters can become stinking, smelly, dirty, filthy, rich real fast,
Awake.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity.... The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
The big difficulty I see is that starting with Sims 3 and now even more with Sims 4, there has been a shift from challenge/time management/restrictions to storytelling. As long as the Sims series is intends to serve the storytelling demographic, we will not get the depth of character the OP is seeking. Because depth of character is in a large part, based on restriction.
For example, in Sims 2 the Lifetime Want was randomly chosen and the player could not change it without jumping through hoops. In Sims 3, the player could select from a group of Lifetime Wish depending upon traits. In Sims 4, you can select any Aspiration at any time, no matter the sims's traits. And ironically, it's that ability to choose that detracts from the depth. If any sim can do anything at any time, then it's solely up to the player to assign depth.
This is similar to the discussion in another thread about how the parents scolding their children is not autonomous, and that was immersion-breaking. The answer some gave in that thread was that the player determines what kind of parent they want their sims to be. Storytelling, not sim-led challenges.
I agree I would like to see more depth and I think updating the whim/aspiration system would go a long way toward that. I personally would prefer an aspiration system somewhere between Sims 2 and Sims 3. The Sims 3 had more meaningful wishes, and the Sims 2 fear/aspiration loss mechanic was great.
However, with the Sims 4 they apparently originally meant for whims to be optional (hence the term "whims" not "wants" or "wishes"). I made a comment in another thread about how I wanted the return of the Sims 2 fear system, and someone replied they didn't want the game telling them what their sims wanted, or how to play their game, they want to decide what their sims wanted. Again, it's the storytelling approach. As long as that is a predominant aim, even with more and more interactions, there won't be the depth. Because, in my opinion, ironically, depth originates from having some restriction. And this game has been moving towards eliminating restrictions.
I'm a storytelling player myself, but I don't think better personalities would stand in the way of that? On the contrary. What's standing in the way of a storyteller is a sim that has to go to the toilet ten times a day or has to constantly clean up mess. Unless you mean storytelling in a way that you use your sims as puppets, pushing them around, them doing everything exactly the way you want to. That wouldn't be a game though and afaic a total bore.
Again, just proving my point further!! I too am a storytelling player.....hence where the imagination gives it depth!! I totally agree with what's said about the bathroom/cleaning up thing that was mentioned here. That to me doesn't make a good story. Usually there are ways to get around that problem though.
There are ways around that, but that's no fun either, constantly having to cheat. I want there to be a balance. But yeah, I do think we agree concerning imagination having to play a part in this game, giving the player room to use it.
i'm gonna attribute the boringness and predictability to the thousands of people demanding the same content, over and over, and over again.
This.
People wanted toddlers, not personality.
People want laundry, not memories.
People want time wasted developing preteens and preschoolers, rather than effort be put into making sims more individual and interesting.
It'd be nice if there was a gp or ep that was about memories, hobbies, interests and individuality.
Pretty inaccurate. Lots of people want both, or the latter more. I know I would personally love an expansion pack that expands Sim intelligence over an expansion that adds anything else.
In fact, I'd say the reason of TS4's direction to be so based around Sims themselves and their personalities, was a direct result of people begging for it on TS3's forums. LOTS of people complained that TS3 Sims act like robots, unlike their predecessor Sims in TS2, and have asked time and time again for smarter, more expressive Sims. That's what TS4 has set out to do, but some still feel they haven't quite hit the mark.
Because they didn't do it right, this whole sim focusing thing. Sims in 2 are very much aware of their surroundings and other sims, that's what they react to (as do Sims 3 sims by the way). Sims in 4 are slaves to their emotions, that are triggered by objects we don't identify with. I don't get why someone would get energized when taking a shower. And I also don't get why being energized would trigger you to drop flat on the floor and start doing push-ups. Or watch a tv show and go all romantic and flirty sitting on the toilet, completely on your own, nobody around to flirt with.
One of my greatest experiences in Sims 2 (I haven't played it much but this experience brought me closest to understanding what Sims 2 fans mean), was when my sim had been quarreling with some woman who knocked on her door and started insulting her. I went with that and it ended in a very funny fight (with a lot of pushing). When the woman left, she shouted she would make sure to make my sim look bad to others. So my sim quickly apologized (I made her do that) and the woman left. Soon after that the phone rang: the woman, who wanted to have a friendly conversation. Clearly to try and improve the relationship. I loved that, this initiative from another sim, clearly triggered by what had happened and my decision to apologize.
i'm gonna attribute the boringness and predictability to the thousands of people demanding the same content, over and over, and over again.
This.
People wanted toddlers, not personality.
People want laundry, not memories.
People want time wasted developing preteens and preschoolers, rather than effort be put into making sims more individual and interesting.
It'd be nice if there was a gp or ep that was about memories, hobbies, interests and individuality.
yes please I think there working on it stuff like that takes time
I'm not going to hold my breath.
They seem to be pretty stingy when it comes to any enhancements to existing mechanics so far - think of how many aspirations or new basic traits we have had since the game was released.
The aspirations are so boring and dumb. I also hate the new system and preferred the one from Sims 2, where their aspiration was a meaningful part of who they were .If their lifelong dreams werent met they could have a nervous breakdown lol. I want more aspirations , but aspirations don't really even matter now. The game needs consequences and rewards also for making our sims happy and not just the reward objects.
I definitely agree with that. Aspirations and whims feel entirely useless because of the fact they are optional, and their rewards don't feel like they hold any significance within a game that is already VERY simple and easy to "win."
Sims 2 got it right. The aspiration and wants/fears system was mandatory, and it, too, had rewards which significantly made dealing with these systems much easier. In fact, completing an aspiration in TS2, which takes a pretty long time, ends up leaving your Sim in a "nirvana" state of mind, meaning the aspiration system can never leave your Sim depressed again. Of course, this didn't mean they couldn't feel depressed from other factors (break up, etc.)
Ah whims. I really want to like whims and sometimes I do, but they are irritating aren't they? I am not sure what they can do with them really, without adding significant complexity. Be nice if the inappropriate ones were eradicated, but I suspect doing that for them now will be a bit like playing whack-a-mole.
Not sure if I would want them mandatory. If the game offered strategy game level game setup options, then I would definitely like to see it in there.
I prefer whims to be optional, I don't like things like that to be mandatory. To me whims aren't useless just because they are optional. As soon as I decide to go with them (assuming they are leading somewhere), they become useful because I decided to make them useful. To me in fact they are more useful being optional, because I prefer it to be me to give them meaning, not the game. I really don't like the game dictating for me what I should do with my sims. I want the game to give me directions and ideas, not instructions.
i'm gonna attribute the boringness and predictability to the thousands of people demanding the same content, over and over, and over again.
This.
People wanted toddlers, not personality.
People want laundry, not memories.
People want time wasted developing preteens and preschoolers, rather than effort be put into making sims more individual and interesting.
It'd be nice if there was a gp or ep that was about memories, hobbies, interests and individuality.
yes please I think there working on it stuff like that takes time
I'm not going to hold my breath.
They seem to be pretty stingy when it comes to any enhancements to existing mechanics so far - think of how many aspirations or new basic traits we have had since the game was released.
The aspirations are so boring and dumb. I also hate the new system and preferred the one from Sims 2, where their aspiration was a meaningful part of who they were .If their lifelong dreams werent met they could have a nervous breakdown lol. I want more aspirations , but aspirations don't really even matter now. The game needs consequences and rewards also for making our sims happy and not just the reward objects.
I definitely agree with that. Aspirations and whims feel entirely useless because of the fact they are optional, and their rewards don't feel like they hold any significance within a game that is already VERY simple and easy to "win."
Sims 2 got it right. The aspiration and wants/fears system was mandatory, and it, too, had rewards which significantly made dealing with these systems much easier. In fact, completing an aspiration in TS2, which takes a pretty long time, ends up leaving your Sim in a "nirvana" state of mind, meaning the aspiration system can never leave your Sim depressed again. Of course, this didn't mean they couldn't feel depressed from other factors (break up, etc.)
Ah whims. I really want to like whims and sometimes I do, but they are irritating aren't they? I am not sure what they can do with them really, without adding significant complexity. Be nice if the inappropriate ones were eradicated, but I suspect doing that for them now will be a bit like playing whack-a-mole.
Not sure if I would want them mandatory. If the game offered strategy game level game setup options, then I would definitely like to see it in there.
I prefer whims to be optional, I don't like things like that to be mandatory. To me whims aren't useless just because they are optional. As soon as I decide to go with them (assuming they are leading somewhere), they become useful because I decided to make them useful. To me in fact they are more useful being optional, because I prefer it to be me to give them meaning, not the game. I really don't like the game dictating for me what I should do with my sims. I want the game to give me directions and ideas, not instructions.
I completely agree. The whims really are, or should be, one of the central engines around emergent stories/gameplay. I can see the attraction in having it as an option to have a game where they would be mandatory, but certainly not by default.
One of my main irritations with them is a UI thing - they are fiddly to cycle through.
Awake.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity.... The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
The big difficulty I see is that starting with Sims 3 and now even more with Sims 4, there has been a shift from challenge/time management/restrictions to storytelling. As long as the Sims series is intends to serve the storytelling demographic, we will not get the depth of character the OP is seeking. Because depth of character is in a large part, based on restriction.
For example, in Sims 2 the Lifetime Want was randomly chosen and the player could not change it without jumping through hoops. In Sims 3, the player could select from a group of Lifetime Wish depending upon traits. In Sims 4, you can select any Aspiration at any time, no matter the sims's traits. And ironically, it's that ability to choose that detracts from the depth. If any sim can do anything at any time, then it's solely up to the player to assign depth.
This is similar to the discussion in another thread about how the parents scolding their children is not autonomous, and that was immersion-breaking. The answer some gave in that thread was that the player determines what kind of parent they want their sims to be. Storytelling, not sim-led challenges.
I agree I would like to see more depth and I think updating the whim/aspiration system would go a long way toward that. I personally would prefer an aspiration system somewhere between Sims 2 and Sims 3. The Sims 3 had more meaningful wishes, and the Sims 2 fear/aspiration loss mechanic was great.
However, with the Sims 4 they apparently originally meant for whims to be optional (hence the term "whims" not "wants" or "wishes"). I made a comment in another thread about how I wanted the return of the Sims 2 fear system, and someone replied they didn't want the game telling them what their sims wanted, or how to play their game, they want to decide what their sims wanted. Again, it's the storytelling approach. As long as that is a predominant aim, even with more and more interactions, there won't be the depth. Because, in my opinion, ironically, depth originates from having some restriction. And this game has been moving towards eliminating restrictions.
I really like the way you put this you hit the nail on the head. Sorry for the late response on it. I actually had to go do real stuff but had started to reply to this but didn't have time to post it.
I'm the type of player you are talking about... a storyteller for the most part. I don't completely agree it's based on restriction but probably only because in my mind that phrasing has a bad connotation. *yeah I read part of that wrong*
I see it as choice and player control.. but it boils down to the same thing basically. I also do like aspirations as they are now.. and the whims for the reasons you stated. I don't want the game controlling what my sim wants (Sims 2 wants and needs) and having them tail spin because they don't get it, or having to race against the clock to make sure they are in a great state physically or emotionally or they fail. I don't even see how those things would add depth for me. I do see others points better now on how this makes them feel like the game is more shallow because of it even if I don't want this for the game.
I definitely don't think they have no depth and that they are very shallow though. I guess it's looking at it from a different angle. Even though my favorite way to play is when I'm feeling up to storytelling. I do play it more loosely often.. either to watch them autonomously with some guidance or task oriented play. I've played for thousands of hours and am often surprised by what happens and their reactions. Different combinations of traits and long term play.. including skilling your sims up and developing/training them some does show them acting differently in various situations to me. It's like you start with a blank slate and it's up to you to fill it out. If you let them do all the filling how they chose to.. they might not go in the direction you expect. They seem to be more attracted to the items they skill in and interact with regularly. So it can make them seem like they are all alike if you don't guide them to what you want and keep them away from stuff in the beginning. Say they play on the cell phone because you as the player didn't give them anything else fun to do. They build up the gaming skill and therefore become more attracted to it no matter what traits they have. If you just leave them to talk and don't cancel these things out they might build up the skills that come with that and be more apt to do those things. I think a lot of it is learning how to play it.. and I'm not trying to be a jerk about that. Some of the nuances come out if you've steered your sim in different directions than what they might do on their own in a big household. Now I'm not saying it's deep and intricate and I do think I give my sims more character through my imaginings of them, but there is more there than meets the eye.. Sometimes I play dispassionately and what they do sometimes shakes me up a bit, because it is so unexpected and is very different from the most common and usually gut reaction complaints I see on the forum.
I never learned how to play Sims 3. I tried when it came out and I tried again a few years ago @JoAnne65 pictures and obvious love for the game basically lead me to buy it the second time (with the packs the starter game comes with now). I still just couldn't get into it... and never learned to play it or see it's depth. I'm not denying it has depth but because the Sims has gone through so many changes I think it's easy to hold on to and expect it to be a certain way. This one isn't perfect for me but it's closer than it's ever come and I think if it went more toward what I believe other people are asking for I'd be one of those players feeling left out.
@bunny-🐸🐸🐸🐸 wrote a while ago that (quote) "it feels like Sims 1 and Sims 2 are for a different simmer audience than Sims 3, and Sims 3 seems like a different audience than Sims 4, and so on". I think that's true (haha, I'm sorry I caused you to spend money on a game you really can't get into and at the same time I can't help feeling flattered ). I remember a simmer who once wrote she enjoyed Sims 3 through my stories but regretted she wasn't capable of enjoying it playing the game herself. It would be nice if one day they could make a Sims game every simmer would love to play. I wonder if it's possible. To quote a well respected simmer in that other section:
i think giving them traits like we have in the game was a bad idea the traits are not very useful for customizing your sims sim customization in Cas in general is actually really repetitive. (I think maybe adding a few subtraits for the traits would help a lot as well as more boxes for a sim to put the traits in for example evil sims can have subtraits such as Mean,Manipulative,Sadistic and or selfish while romantic sims can have Seductive,Flirty,Hopeless romantic and or clingy. this should be able to add diversity to the sims). the way we can change their bodies is also too limited we can't make midgets or tall people and we can't give the sims smaller or larger hands or adjust the height of any body parts.
Sims traits also don't effect them very much the game needs more animations so that sims can act a bit differently sims having the same animation is also an obvious disappointment for new players to see.
I make Sims 4 entertaining because I literally have to create drama. I have a lot of mods that allow Sims to kill other sims. My vamps can kill with drain life. I have my Sims start a lot of fights and have enemies. I use the group system from Get together to sort of form cliques. I try to keep the wealthy away from the poor. Sometimes I have stories where the poor hack the wealthy's bank account so the tables are turned and of course there is always a revenge story after that.
In Sims 2, things could go awry quickly. I remember a lightning strike happened and a tree caught fire and everything started burning down. Sims walking by were running over and dying. The household died it was so crazy I had to close out without saving and the fire was massive. I was going to let the deaths stick but too many died...lol I also remember my Sims at college had a fire in the dorm. A random passerby ran in to try to save the day and died too...lol I let that stick. I also remember my Sim was dating two sims at the same time. He went on a date with another Sim and well he got caught cheating and the slapping started up.
I really didn't have to do much in Sims 2 for things to get out of hand. In Sims 4 I have to create everything and even then I have seen enemies talking like they were friends. I didn't ask for them to be frenemies.
Exactly. Drama has to be started by the player. It gets boring after a while telling my sims to react to a situation.
Your sims 2 story reminded me of when my sim went to work and her wall was struck by lightning. I say wall because it was day 5 of a legacy challenge. The fire got her cooker, the fridge, the shower, her bed and then the rain started and put it out. She lost everything and there was nothing I could do, I was tempted to quit but went with it.
LOL yeah I was going to keep the save but the fire was so massive everyone in the household died including people walking by..LOL That had to be the biggest fire I have ever seen in a game. It just kept spreading and spreading LOL. I love Sims 2.
Sure, but one crowd is louder in their demands than the other.
I know I would personally love an expansion pack that expands Sim intelligence over an expansion that adds anything else.
Get out there and make threads about it!!!
I've seen dozens of threads demanding toddlers, many shouting for laundry, and a total spamming for preteens.
There's maybe a handfull asking for more personality.
In fact, I'd say the reason of TS4's direction to be so based around Sims themselves and their personalities, was a direct result of people begging for it on TS3's forums.
The personality of TS4 sims is insipid.
So, they've totally failed if it's supposed to be about their personalities, cos they're pretty much all clones.
That's what TS4 has set out to do, but some still feel they haven't quite hit the mark.
Ya think?
TS4 sims are lagging behind ts2 and ts3 when it comes to personality.
i'm gonna attribute the boringness and predictability to the thousands of people demanding the same content, over and over, and over again.
This.
People wanted toddlers, not personality.
People want laundry, not memories.
People want time wasted developing preteens and preschoolers, rather than effort be put into making sims more individual and interesting.
It'd be nice if there was a gp or ep that was about memories, hobbies, interests and individuality.
Pretty inaccurate. Lots of people want both, or the latter more. I know I would personally love an expansion pack that expands Sim intelligence over an expansion that adds anything else.
In fact, I'd say the reason of TS4's direction to be so based around Sims themselves and their personalities, was a direct result of people begging for it on TS3's forums. LOTS of people complained that TS3 Sims act like robots, unlike their predecessor Sims in TS2, and have asked time and time again for smarter, more expressive Sims. That's what TS4 has set out to do, but some still feel they haven't quite hit the mark.
I would agree with the sentiment that they missed their mark. They were successful with making the sims more expressive, but beyond that have not made any kind of improvements to either intelligence or personality. I'd actually say personalities were made worse, at least from my experience Sims tend to all be quite alike. Traits are extremely weak and largely just affect emotions.
I didn't really think the sims in 3 were that robotic, at least not to the point where it bothered me. The Sims in 4 are still pretty robotic IMO, still doesn't really bother me too much but it's still very much there. The expressiveness runs like clockwork, there's not a whole lot of variety and you begin to see the same movements after a short period of time.
I make Sims 4 entertaining because I literally have to create drama. I have a lot of mods that allow Sims to kill other sims. My vamps can kill with drain life. I have my Sims start a lot of fights and have enemies. I use the group system from Get together to sort of form cliques. I try to keep the wealthy away from the poor. Sometimes I have stories where the poor hack the wealthy's bank account so the tables are turned and of course there is always a revenge story after that.
In Sims 2, things could go awry quickly. I remember a lightning strike happened and a tree caught fire and everything started burning down. Sims walking by were running over and dying. The household died it was so crazy I had to close out without saving and the fire was massive. I was going to let the deaths stick but too many died...lol I also remember my Sims at college had a fire in the dorm. A random passerby ran in to try to save the day and died too...lol I let that stick. I also remember my Sim was dating two sims at the same time. He went on a date with another Sim and well he got caught cheating and the slapping started up.
I really didn't have to do much in Sims 2 for things to get out of hand. In Sims 4 I have to create everything and even then I have seen enemies talking like they were friends. I didn't ask for them to be frenemies.
Exactly. Drama has to be started by the player. It gets boring after a while telling my sims to react to a situation.
Your sims 2 story reminded me of when my sim went to work and her wall was struck by lightning. I say wall because it was day 5 of a legacy challenge. The fire got her cooker, the fridge, the shower, her bed and then the rain started and put it out. She lost everything and there was nothing I could do, I was tempted to quit but went with it.
Yeah, having to make your sims react to what is going on around them, or to them, gets a bit old quickly. Like my mean sim, well, I wouldn't call her mean, she just like mischief, and she went to a mall I downloaded from the gallery. She and one of the sales sims got off on the wrong foot - she pranked him like six times in a row. Well, she goes back to the mall and I have her prank him once more. He fought her - sadly she lost. But after the fight they are laughing and joking with each other.
Compared to my sims in Sims 2. When they would get into a fight they then declared each other nemesis. They would have each other. Walking around with their though bubble of said sim with a flame under their faces. They would roll wants to see their ghost, or feed them to the cowplant and drink them. They would even gossip about them. And get into a shoving match, which could/would lead to another fight.
They were never all chummy chummy, like nothing had ever happened. And I really dislike how nothing phases these sims. They are happy go lucky no matter what.
Comments
@Sk8rblaze I relate so much to the part about sims in 3 , feeling robotic to players. That is very true. And I couldn't connect with that game because of it.
I think you are right. I find it hard to get excited over a game object that does something that makes me smile for a moment and then I never look at it again. Bit like getting a novelty Christmas card - hmmm, better not give 'em ideas
I have a tiny ray of hope for something like your expansion idea. The groups/club system in GT took me completely by surprise and I have found it adds significantly to my game. Again, I find the whole club configuration system aimed at a primary/elementary school level. Where's our boolean operators - AND, NOT, OR? Maybe, just maybe we may get an expansion that does something equally surprising that provides more depth in a similar way.
Again, the addition of elements in patches and packs into the club system is patchy. No feed activity for vampires, for example.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity....
The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
i could be totally wrong, and wouldn't be surprised if i am. lol my impression when i first started playing TS4 was that the game was a lot more simplified than previous versions and had taken a huge step backward, instead of forward.
playing games on smart phones and tablets has become very popular. it seemed to me that TS4 was simplified to make it playable across all these platforms in addition to on a pc.
this is my impression and i could be way off base here. would love to hear others ideas about this.
Again, I am surprised over the neglect of aspirations. Not sure if it was this thread or another one, I argued that aspirations should be the prime driver of a sim with traits determining how that aspiration is approached and that traits should determine reactive behaviour based on emotions triggered by situational/environmental factors. The game does do this to some extent, but it just isn't joined up and some parts are simply not connected. The fact that a sim can have multiple aspirations is also pretty cool. The base is there!
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity....
The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
Ah whims. I really want to like whims and sometimes I do, but they are irritating aren't they? I am not sure what they can do with them really, without adding significant complexity. Be nice if the inappropriate ones were eradicated, but I suspect doing that for them now will be a bit like playing whack-a-mole.
Not sure if I would want them mandatory. If the game offered strategy game level game setup options, then I would definitely like to see it in there.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity....
The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
No thank you for participating
The UI alone reeks to high heaven of portable device intention or influence
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity....
The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
I really like the way you put this you hit the nail on the head. Sorry for the late response on it. I actually had to go do real stuff but had started to reply to this but didn't have time to post it.
I'm the type of player you are talking about... a storyteller for the most part. I don't completely agree it's based on restriction but probably only because in my mind that phrasing has a bad connotation. *yeah I read part of that wrong*
I see it as choice and player control.. but it boils down to the same thing basically. I also do like aspirations as they are now.. and the whims for the reasons you stated. I don't want the game controlling what my sim wants (Sims 2 wants and needs) and having them tail spin because they don't get it, or having to race against the clock to make sure they are in a great state physically or emotionally or they fail. I don't even see how those things would add depth for me. I do see others points better now on how this makes them feel like the game is more shallow because of it even if I don't want this for the game.
I definitely don't think they have no depth and that they are very shallow though. I guess it's looking at it from a different angle. Even though my favorite way to play is when I'm feeling up to storytelling. I do play it more loosely often.. either to watch them autonomously with some guidance or task oriented play. I've played for thousands of hours and am often surprised by what happens and their reactions. Different combinations of traits and long term play.. including skilling your sims up and developing/training them some does show them acting differently in various situations to me. It's like you start with a blank slate and it's up to you to fill it out. If you let them do all the filling how they chose to.. they might not go in the direction you expect. They seem to be more attracted to the items they skill in and interact with regularly. So it can make them seem like they are all alike if you don't guide them to what you want and keep them away from stuff in the beginning. Say they play on the cell phone because you as the player didn't give them anything else fun to do. They build up the gaming skill and therefore become more attracted to it no matter what traits they have. If you just leave them to talk and don't cancel these things out they might build up the skills that come with that and be more apt to do those things. I think a lot of it is learning how to play it.. and I'm not trying to be a jerk about that. Some of the nuances come out if you've steered your sim in different directions than what they might do on their own in a big household. Now I'm not saying it's deep and intricate and I do think I give my sims more character through my imaginings of them, but there is more there than meets the eye.. Sometimes I play dispassionately and what they do sometimes shakes me up a bit, because it is so unexpected and is very different from the most common and usually gut reaction complaints I see on the forum.
I never learned how to play Sims 3. I tried when it came out and I tried again a few years ago @JoAnne65 pictures and obvious love for the game basically lead me to buy it the second time (with the packs the starter game comes with now). I still just couldn't get into it... and never learned to play it or see it's depth. I'm not denying it has depth but because the Sims has gone through so many changes I think it's easy to hold on to and expect it to be a certain way. This one isn't perfect for me but it's closer than it's ever come and I think if it went more toward what I believe other people are asking for I'd be one of those players feeling left out.
The traits in this game are less important.
In TS3 traits had way more effects and influence on gameplay that just influencing Emotions.
For Example this is the influence on gameplay of the 'Genius' trait in TS3:
Geniuses will learn the Logic skill 30% faster than other Sims.
Geniuses enjoy playing chess and will improve at it quickly.
Geniuses learn Mooch, Chess, Hacking, and Dominoes[TS3:ST]hidden skills 30% faster.
When a Sim in the household dies Genius Sims can "Play Chess for (Sim Name)'s life."
Sim can solve crazy mathematical problems on the computer for cash. This will also raise their Fun motive slowly as well as slightly raising their Logic skill.
Geniuses will do better at Law Enforcement, Science and Medical careers.
Geniuses will autonomously "Contemplate" their surroundings. This may sometimes incur the Fascinated moodlet for 3 hours.
Geniuses can create pixelized paintings using Paint Stylized Still-Life.
Genius Sims will praise their children more often for doing their homework, much like Family-Oriented Sims.
Geniuses can initiate "Deep Conversations" at any point in a relationship and they enjoy them more.
Provides a bonus to Sims writing in the Science Fiction genre.
Provides a bonus to Sims writing in the Mystery genre.
NPCs with this trait are attracted to the following lot assignments: Library.
Toddlers with this trait will learn their toddler skills faster than other Sims.
Geniuses are unaffected by the quest action "Convince (Genius's Name) that the Sky is Falling".
Genius Sims benefit from all majors in college.
Related Skills
...And this is the 'Genius' trait in TS4:
Genius Sims will randomly get the "Feeling Focused" moodlet.
Genius Sims will get the "Unchallenged" moodlet if they haven't used mentally-stimulating interactions.
Genius Sims can Share Brilliant Ideas with other Sims and Reveal Brilliant Invention to other Sims.
I don't have any words. The TS4 traits haven't got much influence on gameplay.
I came to the game with 4 and I do like my genius sims. After reading the above, I am am just depressed
The creative painters are the powerhouse sim of sims 4 as painters can become stinking, smelly, dirty, filthy, rich real fast,
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity....
The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
One of my greatest experiences in Sims 2 (I haven't played it much but this experience brought me closest to understanding what Sims 2 fans mean), was when my sim had been quarreling with some woman who knocked on her door and started insulting her. I went with that and it ended in a very funny fight (with a lot of pushing). When the woman left, she shouted she would make sure to make my sim look bad to others. So my sim quickly apologized (I made her do that) and the woman left. Soon after that the phone rang: the woman, who wanted to have a friendly conversation. Clearly to try and improve the relationship. I loved that, this initiative from another sim, clearly triggered by what had happened and my decision to apologize.
I completely agree. The whims really are, or should be, one of the central engines around emergent stories/gameplay. I can see the attraction in having it as an option to have a game where they would be mandatory, but certainly not by default.
One of my main irritations with them is a UI thing - they are fiddly to cycle through.
Shake dreams from your hair
My pretty child, my sweet one.
Choose the day and choose the sign of your day
The day's divinity....
The Ghost Song - Jim Morrison
Wise words
the way we can change their bodies is also too limited we can't make midgets or tall people and we can't give the sims smaller or larger hands or adjust the height of any body parts.
Sims traits also don't effect them very much the game needs more animations so that sims can act a bit differently sims having the same animation is also an obvious disappointment for new players to see.
LOL yeah I was going to keep the save but the fire was so massive everyone in the household died including people walking by..LOL That had to be the biggest fire I have ever seen in a game. It just kept spreading and spreading LOL. I love Sims 2.
Get out there and make threads about it!!!
I've seen dozens of threads demanding toddlers, many shouting for laundry, and a total spamming for preteens.
There's maybe a handfull asking for more personality.
The personality of TS4 sims is insipid.
So, they've totally failed if it's supposed to be about their personalities, cos they're pretty much all clones.
Ya think?
TS4 sims are lagging behind ts2 and ts3 when it comes to personality.
I would agree with the sentiment that they missed their mark. They were successful with making the sims more expressive, but beyond that have not made any kind of improvements to either intelligence or personality. I'd actually say personalities were made worse, at least from my experience Sims tend to all be quite alike. Traits are extremely weak and largely just affect emotions.
I didn't really think the sims in 3 were that robotic, at least not to the point where it bothered me. The Sims in 4 are still pretty robotic IMO, still doesn't really bother me too much but it's still very much there. The expressiveness runs like clockwork, there's not a whole lot of variety and you begin to see the same movements after a short period of time.
Yeah, having to make your sims react to what is going on around them, or to them, gets a bit old quickly. Like my mean sim, well, I wouldn't call her mean, she just like mischief, and she went to a mall I downloaded from the gallery. She and one of the sales sims got off on the wrong foot - she pranked him like six times in a row. Well, she goes back to the mall and I have her prank him once more. He fought her - sadly she lost. But after the fight they are laughing and joking with each other.
Compared to my sims in Sims 2. When they would get into a fight they then declared each other nemesis. They would have each other. Walking around with their though bubble of said sim with a flame under their faces. They would roll wants to see their ghost, or feed them to the cowplant and drink them. They would even gossip about them. And get into a shoving match, which could/would lead to another fight.
They were never all chummy chummy, like nothing had ever happened. And I really dislike how nothing phases these sims. They are happy go lucky no matter what.