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Olympus UI and Multiplayer Code in The Sims 4

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  • luthienrisingluthienrising Posts: 35,858 Member
    edited May 2017
    @DeservedCriticism I've never claimed to be independent of bias. I spent enough years studying and debating various areas of philosophy and related fields, particularly contemporary material, in grad school to understand what an absurd idea that is. (Part of my dissertation was a contribution to the theory of my discipline. I'm not working in that area anymore, but pleased to see that I still get cited sometimes!)

    Yes, I've heard of Occam's Razor. I don't buy it. (Edited to add: I don't buy it in the form it turns up in outside of academic discourse and some sci-fi.) Simple explanations are a nice-to-have; I've never seen an argument to convince me that a simple hypothesis is more likely to be correct than a complex one. I believe that the world is a complex place and that giving priority to simple answers risks missing much of that complexity and falling for appealing falsehoods. That said, I too enjoy an elegant solution and am happy when an explanation is plausible, likely, and elegant.

    @SimGuruLyndsay didn't say they likely achieved the 5 million; she said they did. (Source: http://simscommunity.info/2017/03/21/the-sims-4-simgurulyndsay-talks-game-sales-and-cas-gender-update/) And yep, nobody dispelled or confirmed those rumors until this recently. I've never been permitted to speak about the confidential info I've been privy to when I've been employed, and I simply assumed that that was the case for Maxis at the time as well. You can't just go round answering every question you'd like to sometimes.
    We long speculated this game may have less funding or less workers on hand, now we have confirmation that many of the Sims 3's Salt Lake EP staff are now working on mobile and have been doing so conceivably for AT LEAST one year.

    I'm confused about your statement here. Had you been under the impression that we'd been told those people had been moved to work on Sims 4, in SF? There was an announcement in January 2014 that 40 Salt Lake City staff moved to work at Maxis in California; EA's Salt Lake offices produce non-Maxis content. Maxis Emeryville (another SF-area studio) was shut down in spring 2015; we were never told about staff joining Sims 4 specifically from that. What was said by EA was this: "All employees impacted by the changes today will be given opportunities to explore other positions within the Maxis studios and throughout EA. For those that are leaving the company, we are working to ensure the best possible transition with separation packages and career assistance." Presumably they could apply for positions on a range of things that might have included Sims Mobile, if it was already in development two years ago. People who worked in Utah until January 2014 and now work in Sims Mobile could have come from lots of places in between. But even if they all came via Sims 4, what makes you think that that's evidence that fewer people work on Sims 4 now? Do you think that they don't do new hiring for Sims 4 if someone goes off to a different project? Your bias is showing ;)

    There were no grounds for the speculation that Bowling was delayed by anything else. Could it have been? Sure. But it released by the end of the quarter, and that's all we were ever told would happen. As for the possibility that a $10 stuff pack for a two-and-a-half-year-old game was nudged a week later for a major base game launch but still being delivered when promised, because there was no promised specific release date... What is the issue here exactly?

    We were told that the family GP will release in Spring. So they have until June 20 to do what we were promised. Again, all lots of fun to speculate that they might have meant to announce it this week but changed that plan for Sims Mobile, but there's no grounds for that speculation. There's no more evidence that it was meant to announce this week than that it was always meant to announce next week or the week after that or the week after that or the week after that, all of which would keep the pack in a Spring launch. Only one out of the five possible announcement weeks that remained after there was no announcement last week supports a theory that we're basically being picked on. In the absence of any other evidence, it strikes me as reasonable to conclude that the odds are we're not being picked on. Certainly, we're not being denied something we were promised; there are still four weeks for the pack to be announced and on time.
    Yes the Sims team regularly misleads you
    That's a very serious accusation. I hope you can back it up.

    And that's it for what my lunch hour will cover.
    Post edited by luthienrising on
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  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    Neia wrote: »
    @DeservedCriticism
    I find it funny that you mention Occam's Razor and the 5M in the same post, when you went out of your way to find others explanations ('Upon careful inspection the design of the plumbob on the badge doesn't fit ', 'Grey is the color of achievement that haven't been fulfilled yet'), when the most straightforward explanation of a 5M badges among TS4 badges is a badge to celebrate 5M sales of TS4.

    Just like the most simple explanation of a tweet saying "It's more or less the same", is that it hasn't actually changed much. Because SimGuruMegs has no reason to keep track of the exact number of employees working in a team with hundreds of people. It's not "their" lead animator by the way, there are several lead animators.

    And I did so only after Drake commented there was never confirmation that's what that button means. That was my evidence. I tried to rationalize why Drake, as their PR manager, would make a statement like that. It implies the assumption is false and she did so completely of her own volition, and that's something a PR manager might only do if they feel they need to (yknow, before things get out of control and backfire). Any other conclusions I drew were spawned only after that pivotal piece of evidence, as I was simply trying to make sense of that bit of evidence in front of me.

    What's more, I'd remind you that even if you were right and I was somehow an outrageous hypocrite that lets my biases get in the way when the tables are turned, that does not change that I'm correct to point out that currently there's strong biases from the other side.

    And if Megs doesn't care because she doesn't know, why not leave it at "I've no idea (if it's more or less now)?" The latter portion, promise you, is there specifically to try and quell worries. This also ties into the next problem: she says it "feels more or less the same size" but implies only two workers moved. Why is she incapable of counting to two? Either it's probably not the same size and they lost someone (bad news, can't say that), or she's making a comparison to Sims 3, in which case why do that completely out of the blue? That's right: she'd do it completely out of the blue if they were very concious of people's worries, anticipated them, and had damage control prepared. You assume Megs just doesn't care and made that tweet with little thought or conciousness to her word choice, but to me it absolutely looks like her tweets were reviewed. (or governed by strict policies on what they can and can't say)
    I'm used to seeing gaming companies be brutally honest and admit their mistakes. There's very little use in a maybe/ perhaps PR. And funnily enough I rarely see it outside EA.

    But then again most of my company experience in public spaces is either indie developers, or Square Enix MMO department. In Square Enix'es case, the producer of the game decides what happens. He can veto the most popular former race because he simply doesn't want bunny people and he can state that he will never add parsers despite the community begging for it. Because it's his baby and you either put up with it or leave it. It is honestly a better strategy, because if the answer is "no", the community can have a dialogue "why no? Maybe something else that will serve a similar purpose be possible?". While "maybe" kind of just leaves you hanging in limbo. And most people just get fed up with limbos and leave.

    @mirta000 I mean not every company's the same, but on that note I'll only say these two things.

    1) Smaller companies will probably be friendlier and more transparent. I've experienced this on job interviews between big and small companies, I've experienced this much like you between Indie vs. AAA companies, and I've experienced this with local businesses. It's a combination of things, namely that smaller companies have a more direct and personal attachment to their work, they likely lack the funding or education to waste on someone who calculates the ramnifications of every company statement made, and they might have a more direct care for their company instead of just viewing it as a means to get paid, not caring if their company looks good or bad so long as their steady paycheck keeps coming in.

    2) I mean let's not kid ourselves, EA has a horrendous reputation. You're probably naming particularly positive examples, and likewise, EA is definitely a particularly bad one. I have no idea how "out of touch" this community is seeing as how we're on one of their official forums, but there just is not any discussion on if EA is hated or not outside of these forums: they are. They're the boogeyman of the gaming world and the company franchises go to to die. So yeah, I'd say your examples probably aren't standard, but EA isn't exactly standard either; it's only standard amongst the biggest ones and the ones that...
    ...I've said it before but often at times, a company as large as EA may hit a point where they're seeing diminishing returns for sales of quality title releases, so instead of focusing on trying to make things bigger and better, they focus on cutting costs or boosting their marketing budget or the like. Yknow, they mess around with production expenses or try to see if publicity isn't superior to good game design. EA is very much at this point. SimCity is a great example because that's a beloved and iconic franchise that existed for 20+ years, but the moment it didn't yield good profit, EA had no qualms about dumping it in the trash, with no regard for how let down fans of that series must be and no real discussion of how they need to make things right on the principle of just passionately caring about that franchise. Nope, it was a means to some money and nothing but. Compare this to something like Stardew Valley, which has a development team of one. One guy clearly loves his own game and his own product, thus one year later he's still producing free updates that are decent in size. Why? Cause he wants to lol. It's fun for him, and not neccesarily about the money. I imagine if he found himself in a similar position as SimCity, he'd be focused a bit less on money and a bit more on redeeming it's name. That's the difference between a passion project and an AAA title that gets churned out every half-decade.


    Either way, I would absolutely advise skepticism here, and that's not just a hunch, that's based on what we've seen.

    -Sims 4 had a lackluster release, and what did they do? They withheld press copies; they knew 🌙🌙🌙🌙🌙 well that the game's release would be rocky, they just wanted to ensure they didn't lose pre-orders to bad reviews.

    -Sims 4 was long theorized to be once online and that this was scrapped in somewhat rushed development to convert it to single player, all this based on pre-release rumors by former Sims team employees and some of the mechanics of the game itself. 2 and a half years we hear no real news, apology or statement on this until some random user can finally confirm it for us.

    -Sims 4 has slow EP production compared to EVERY former Sims title, the question long being why. I know on at least one occassion I pointed out that the 2nd EP team was reassigned to mobile development and no longer exists, and lo and behold we find out they've been working on this. Someone at EA/Maxis probably made the decision to do this years ago, and I doubt they did so because they really really felt that we would all LOVE a mobile Sims game. Mobile Sims games have failed twice, yet here they are trying again. A lot of companies seem to believe there's a lot of untouched potential in the mobile market, and I'd guess that's what this is...and yes, it's hindering what could've just been a Sims 4 with two EP teams.

    -Sims 4 had that rumor about 5mil copies sold, and as stated, instead of snuffing out the rumors entirely, we only got a statement HEAVILY implying it to those of us that weren't too caught up in our wishful thinking. When they had a chance for pure transparency or benefiting off people's hopes, they chose the latter.

    -It's been stated perhaps Sims 4 will last longer than the standard Sims game, and this statement was made at a time people were frustrated with slow releases, so obviously it serves to help calm those worries. Will it actually go on longer...?


    I only speak up now because yeah, this is strike four. It's time for people to stop wondering if we should be skeptical about what they say, it's time to actually be skeptical.
    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    Quoting a few bits here:
    Yes, I've heard of Occam's Razor. I don't buy it.

    Oh my God...


    @SimGuruLyndsay didn't say they likely achieved the 5 million; she said they did.

    Yes, just for clarity, she did confirm it for us. When the 5mil button was shown, there was no confirmation of this and Drake even made a comment implying the opposite. Lyndsay's recent statement, comparatively, is very bold and more definitive, thus I'm inclined to believe Lyndsay that now they've reached 5mil.


    I'm confused about your statement here. Had you been under the impression that we'd been told those people had been moved to work on Sims 4, in SF?

    I could've expressed myself better there. What I meant was more....back then we thought they dissolved one of the EP teams as sort of a budget cut. Yknow, someone decided Sims 4 could survive with one EP team and cut one to cut costs, and that's already frustrating enough. That the team was dissolved wasn't exactly a secret; they didn't exactly blast it in the news here, but you could find it if you wanted.

    Fast forward to now, and not only did they re-allocate those people off of the traditional Sims team, but they re-allocated them to a related project: Sims for mobile. This is extra levels of frustrating for me. This implies they still see dollar signs and profit in the Sims franchise, but instead of just letting things be and leaving that second team ready to work on Sims 4, they're trying to milk the franchise more, even though Sims for mobile has already flopped twice. It stinks of greed, it stinks of terrible management, and it stinks of valuing profit over quality.

    If some guy in a suit thought Sims 4 could survive off one EP team and cut the second one to try and reassign them to work on a new franchise or something....? That sucks for us, but you can at least argue that perhaps his decision is made to just try and give us more good games and that he may have genuinely believed the negative impact would be minimal. But if he's actively reassigning them to a mobile spin-off port, let alone knowing full well that Sims mobile games have failed twice before...? Terrible priorities, and as I said, likely spawned of greed. It suggests they know the Sims is popular and loved and still has potential for profit, but instead of just giving us a quality PC product, they insist there's gold to be found in the mobile market, and that even if it means damaging our product, they should start digging. It's a giant middle finger to customers such as ourselves, as far as I'm concerned. Apparently my money just isn't good enough anymore. (and I could go off into a huuuuuuuge long speech about how seeking new customers and new demographics while screwing your old base has a history of damaging companies or having rewards negatively disproportionate to the risk involved, but I'll skip that cause it'd take too long)

    That's a very serious accusation. I hope you can back it up.

    Yes actually.
    Copy-pasted from my above post just so you can't miss it:

    -Sims 4 had a lackluster release, and what did they do? They withheld press copies; they knew plum well that the game's release would be rocky, they just wanted to ensure they didn't lose pre-orders to bad reviews.

    -Sims 4 was long theorized to be once online and that this was scrapped in somewhat rushed development to convert it to single player, all this based on pre-release rumors by former Sims team employees and some of the mechanics of the game itself. 2 and a half years we hear no real news, apology or statement on this until some random user can finally confirm it for us.

    -Sims 4 has slow EP production compared to EVERY former Sims title, the question long being why. I know on at least one occassion I pointed out that the 2nd EP team was reassigned to mobile development and no longer exists, and lo and behold we find out they've been working on this. We didn't hear whipsers or previews of this beforehand; no, we found out about it now, and I suspect we found out about it now for a reason. Someone at EA/Maxis probably made the decision to do this years ago, and I doubt they did so because they really really felt that we would all LOVE a mobile Sims game. Mobile Sims games have failed twice, yet here they are trying again. A lot of companies seem to believe there's a lot of untouched potential in the mobile market, and I'd guess that's what this is...and yes, it's hindering what could've just been a Sims 4 with two EP teams.

    -Sims 4 had that rumor about 5mil copies sold, and as stated, instead of snuffing out the rumors entirely, we only got a statement HEAVILY implying it to those of us that weren't too caught up in our wishful thinking. When they had a chance for pure transparency or benefiting off people's hopes, they chose the latter.

    Misleading us
    does not have to mean they directly bold-faced lie. It can involve withholding information with a certain intent, and that's exactly what they do. We've seen it four times now.

    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
  • luthienrisingluthienrising Posts: 35,858 Member
    @DeservedCriticism Yep, the withholding of press copies at launch wasn't a good indicator. I assumed afterward that they were anticipating the toddler backlash in a way that isn't one I'd personally have advised. But I'm not in marketing and PR. I liked the game anyway, so whatever they were worried about wasn't part of what I was looking for. (Didn't like toddlers before these we have now, so I wasn't missing them.) I was skeptical about the press copies thing until launch. Launch clarified that decision for me, whether I agreed with it or not.

    I don't expect anyone to be telling us things they're contractually obliged not to. I would be truly shocked - indeed horrified - if EA employees were allowed to talk about development like that. It's just not done, outside of carefully managed PR in support of marketing and sales. It would certainly make for an interesting case history someday, though. I would hope that that case history would include the fallout of information getting out into the public - and maybe some thoughts from a range of outside experts on how they'd manage the situation when it does. I imagine that most Sims players never heard any of the stuff and still haven't, so it probably doesn't actually matter to EA what we speculate, but a business history and professional PR take on it would be fascinating. Not sure what you want an apology for, though. Sorry you didn't get the game you personally wanted? Sorry we had a wrong idea to start with? Am I supposed to be skeptical because they won't break contracts or apologize to you for making a business decision that you didn't like? Not convinced, sorry.

    So, how was GP production before Sims 4? Seems to have been really slow. Apples and oranges on that one. Happens a lot around here. I like that GPs were added to the mix. I did a lot of spending $40 for half an EP I wanted before, or for an EP that felt reaaaaaallly stretched out with random stuff to make it EP sized. If you add EPs as "1" and GPs as "0.5," remarkably we have the same production level as we had for Sims 2 and 3 EPs. Plus the SPs are half the price. Sorry, not feeling very skeptical right now.

    The rumor has been officially confirmed, just not when you wanted it to be confirmed. Just in case you missed that part. I'm not seeing what I should be skeptical about.

    As for your last issue, we were told that they'd keep making Sims 4 as long as it made sense to, and some similar statements. They were all open enough to suggest the possibility that the game would last longer but not saying so outright. Guess we'll have to wait and see, won't we! Why don't you just check in which us less skeptical folks in another two and a half years, at the 5-year point? I'd suggest you hang out with the "They'll never add Toddlers" and "Toddlers will cost money" and "Toddlers will be tied to an object" skeptics, but that corner's empty now ;)
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  • luthienrisingluthienrising Posts: 35,858 Member
    edited May 2017
    Quoting a few bits here:
    Yes, I've heard of Occam's Razor. I don't buy it.

    Oh my God...

    If you want to go into the details, I don't buy the popular application of it that selects the simple explanation no matter what. I have almost never seen the phrase used correctly outside of academic venues. Few of your own arguments apply it.
    @SimGuruLyndsay didn't say they likely achieved the 5 million; she said they did.

    Yes, just for clarity, she did confirm it for us. When the 5mil button was shown, there was no confirmation of this and Drake even made a comment implying the opposite. Lyndsay's recent statement, comparatively, is very bold and more definitive, thus I'm inclined to believe Lyndsay that now they've reached 5mil.
    So how do you explain the 5M button from a year earlier? What rational explanation is there for it, one that is not obviously guided by an assumption that if they don't give you the answer you want right away they must have something to hide?
    I'm confused about your statement here. Had you been under the impression that we'd been told those people had been moved to work on Sims 4, in SF?

    I could've expressed myself better there. What I meant was more....back then we thought they dissolved one of the EP teams as sort of a budget cut. Yknow, someone decided Sims 4 could survive with one EP team and cut one to cut costs, and that's already frustrating enough. That the team was dissolved wasn't exactly a secret; they didn't exactly blast it in the news here, but you could find it if you wanted.

    Fast forward to now, and not only did they re-allocate those people off of the traditional Sims team, but they re-allocated them to a related project: Sims for mobile. This is extra levels of frustrating for me. This implies they still see dollar signs and profit in the Sims franchise, but instead of just letting things be and leaving that second team ready to work on Sims 4, they're trying to milk the franchise more, even though Sims for mobile has already flopped twice. It stinks of greed, it stinks of terrible management, and it stinks of valuing profit over quality.

    If some guy in a suit thought Sims 4 could survive off one EP team and cut the second one to try and reassign them to work on a new franchise or something....? That plum for us, but you can at least argue that perhaps his decision is made to just try and give us more good games and that he may have genuinely believed the negative impact would be minimal. But if he's actively reassigning them to a mobile spin-off port, let alone knowing full well that Sims mobile games have failed twice before...? Terrible priorities, and as I said, likely spawned of greed. It suggests they know the Sims is popular and loved and still has potential for profit, but instead of just giving us a quality PC product, they insist there's gold to be found in the mobile market, and that even if it means damaging our product, they should start digging. It's a giant middle finger to customers such as ourselves, as far as I'm concerned. Apparently my money just isn't good enough anymore. (and I could go off into a huuuuuuuge long speech about how seeking new customers and new demographics while screwing your old base has a history of damaging companies or having rewards negatively disproportionate to the risk involved, but I'll skip that cause it'd take too long)

    Uh. Forgot what I was going to say here but it was something, dangit. Anyway, pretty sure there's been discussion from Maxis about team size etc. that indicates that things changed, they didn't get smaller. But I've given discussing this with you way more time than I can afford anyway so not going hunting. And it's clearly not going to go anywhere, for either of us, so I'll set it aside.
    Misleading us[/b] does not have to mean they directly bold-faced lie. It can involve withholding information with a certain intent, and that's exactly what they do. We've seen it four times now.

    Legal definitions of mislead involve intent to mislead. My statement holds. Accusations like that are not ones to make lightly.

    Adding: For the record, putting you on Ignore not because I don't want to see your arguments but because I'm not good at the self-control to not counter them. So it's me I'm trying to put on Ignore. In case you wonder why I don't respond to something more in this discussion. It's not personal, and it's not about you. (Would love if there were a pop-up instead that said "Do you really want to reply?" before I start typing. My post count would be lots lower!)
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  • jimmysnanjimmysnan Posts: 8,303 Member
    edited May 2017
    Sc3niX wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    Writin_Reg wrote: »
    Hey guys. The Sims Mobile has stirred up some discussion about Olympus so I decided to go ahead and look into it deeper. I'm glad I did.

    You can check out my post on SimsVIP, if you're so inclined.

    I knew some of that but sure appreciate actually seeing it. Thank you TwistedMexican. Nothing like seeing it for one's self.
    yeah same but to be honest actually i kind of wish i did not see some it unless i am missunderstanding something. cuz from what i understand there is no reason in the current state the base game should not have have had a create a style or been made into an open world.

    Create a Style? Maybe.

    Open world? Doubtful. In order to implement open world in Sims 4 i believe they would have to completely redo the whole engine of Sims 4. An engine takes a lot of time to create, also transferring all the other content onto a new engine would take loads of time and resource. They might as well just make a new game with that time and money spent.

    They will make it sims 5
  • DeservedCriticismDeservedCriticism Posts: 2,251 Member
    @ luthienrising Your first response is so irrational and all over the place I don't even know if it warrants a response. You deflected to a dozen seperate topics, the majority of which I didn't even bring up, or you more or less repeated what I just got done saying except you act like I'm blaming EA or something when I explicitly stated in my first post I expect consumers to get a little wiser about what to expect from such a company. I'm not hating the player (Sims), I'm hating the game (how companies of this size function) and suggesting people would do best to educate themselves on that.
    So how do you explain the 5M button from a year earlier? What rational explanation is there for it, one that is not obviously guided by an assumption that if they don't give you the answer you want right away they must have something to hide?

    I just got done answering this: Drake's statement. Amidst all the hubbub that Sims 4 sold 5mil copies because one of the Gurus tweeted a "5M" button, Drake made a comment stating something along the lines of "I don't remember anyone saying that's what that button was for, just a lot of assumptions stating it was." I saw that and asked myself "now why would she say that?" The answer is that the assumption is wrong and she wanted to provide people with a statement implying as much so that if this somehow snowballed into fans being disappointed as they found out Sims 4 wasn't selling as well as they thought, they'd have no one to blame but themselves. Any assumptions I added on were only made as a consequence of that, in an attempt to rationalize why Drake made her statement and suggest ways the button shows it's not actually referring to Sims 4. Given Lyndsay's comment this year about how they're at "about 5mil," I sincerely doubt they've been stagnant since that button episode, so this implies the button was indeed just for Sims 2 or something while Lyndsay's "about 5mil" from whenever it was (3 months ago?) is the best estimate we have for sales.
    Legal definitions of mislead involve intent to mislead. My statement holds. Accusations like that are not ones to make lightly.

    Are you seriously trying to argue that when EA/Maxis withheld press release copies, refused to comment on a 2 and a half year old rumor about Sims 4 being offline, kept this mobile game in the dark and chose to only vaguely debunk the 5Mil rumor instead of stomping it out completely, they accidently misled us? As someone who studied law, even if by some fantasy you'd wish to argue doing all that without intent is possible, we're still now in the realm of gross negligence. Either way, the end lesson is to take anything they say with a grain of salt.
    "Who are you, that do not know your history?"
  • jimmysnanjimmysnan Posts: 8,303 Member
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    OEII1001 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    yeah its an interesting read and makes me seriously think they chose a really horrible time to release the sims moible cuz yeah its opening a bunch of can of worms. cuz from what i understand there is no real reason the game in its current state can not handle an a create a style like in the sims 3 and an open world!

    There's no reason why they couldn't add it except for the fact it's the type of thing you need to design from the beginning. The sims 3 objects have several "layers" to them, which allowed you to do things like pick colors for bed sheets, bed frame, etc. The sims 4 objects, because they weren't designed with this feature in mind, use a single texture file. There is no interactive layer for color changes. Every single object would have to be redone to support it at this point.

    Open would could have been done except the core of the game's functionality was designed the way it is currently. It would have probably delayed the release greatly to have rebuild the household data structure and traveling system.

    I know that's not exactly awesome news, but hope that helps explain why it is the way it is.

    it explains why but its not very good i mean it just kind of upsets me a bit. like i am not sure how i am supposed to take comfort in this oh because they made a bad marketing choice we get a shallow game of what could have been.

    You may be taking the whole thing a little too personally. Maxis developed a video game you didn't like. That's it.

    and that changes the fact that they made a poor choice how. they should not have not tired to make the game the way did from the start and now they are in a bit of a tough spot and only because they finally provided vampires and tolders did the game finally become a bit of an improvment for a bunch of people but like vampires and tolders can only add so much. they really need to improve the game alot still. and it should have been great from the start but they made a poor choice and now we are stuck with this shallow game.

    Well, I'm enjoying the game, but I'm not a real simmer. Regardless, does this revelation change anything? You didn't like the game before you knew this, and you don't like it now. I liked the game before and after. None of it is personal. There's no reason to take it as an offense directed toward you specifically. There's no reason to take comfort because there's nothing to be comforted from. You just don't like the game.

    a little bit it just means they made a mistake and now we as the customors are paying the price. and to be honest it does not look like they are doing much to fix it other then tolders and vampires and now maybe pets which yeah apparently should make everything all better.

    What we could have done has long passed we could have not
    Purchased a game we were not happy with. I was happy with it i purchased it. They let you try it out if its not for you dont purchase it.
    I am not trying to be rude here but there have been more than enough posts from the beginning about what is wrong with the game and why and still the game is purchased by a lot of simmers. So to say that we as consumers have to pay for their mistake is not entirely correct. We did not have to purchase it.
    So we do not have to pay for anyones mistakes we choose to pay for mistakes. It is always pur choice.
  • jimmysnanjimmysnan Posts: 8,303 Member
    edited May 2017
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    brendhan21 wrote: »
    Cinebar wrote: »
    Hey guys. The Sims Mobile has stirred up some discussion about Olympus so I decided to go ahead and look into it deeper. I'm glad I did.

    You can check out my post on SimsVIP, if you're so inclined.

    Excellent read! You provided in a very articulate way why we have these limitations we have tried to explain to people for three years (almost). With the tech speak it should make it clearer to players why people were able to discern these things for themselves without having any programming and or modding background, but pure common sense. :D

    well i actually feel like they should not have tired to it that way in the first place its kind of their fault we ended up with the game we have in the first place.

    There's a good chance, looking at how the business case would probably work, that either they could make what they had work for a single-player offline Sims 4 or there would be no sequel to Sims 3, at all. The sunk cost of all that design and development work would be high; you can either keep moving forward on top of as much of your sunk cost as you can, or you can write all the sunk cost off not just part of it. The first scenario is much more likely to result in an actual new game instead of none.

    Personally, I'm fine without CASt (I'd just like more swatches for some things, or an outside tool for easier CC making, similar to Body Shop) and I wasn't a fan of open world. I also like Sims 4. I'm glad they moved forward with it. , we've developed such diverse play styles and been exposed to so many different art styles, etc. That would have remained true if they'd scrapped everything, eaten that huge sunk cost, and still moved forward.

    I like every sims version. I like the Sims 4, some parts of it I love but I'm just not ever going to pretend mistakes weren't made and I doubt I'll ever except misdirection during concept development as an excuse good enough to simply ignore the mistakes, either. All the talking in the world about resource limits and time constraints really doesn't make much difference to the average consumer of which I am one.

    i agree but hey if we bought it apparently the mistakes do not mater in the long run cuz if they did mater we would not buy it. see people have a simple mindset of if the mistakes bother you so much do not buy it and if they dont bother you then buy it just do not complain about them.

    I think the point some are making is yes it was a mistake from our point of view to continue with such a limited framework but nothing can be done about it now except hope that if and when the next version comes along lessons will have been learned about what the community wants to see. As for the Sims 4 we're two and a half years in and probably won't ever see open world, cast, or terrain tools. It's now your decision whether you can accept that and try to enjoy what the game does have to offer.

    i sort of agree with you cuz yeah i know nothing will and can be done about it. but i also do not think we should remain slient about it. like to be honest i am not convinced tolders would have gone they way they did if we were silent about it.

    i have to disagree about toddlers i think they were coming from the beginning but they had some upper management who were on another planet when it came to what simmers wanted. I think she was about the bottom line money not what the customers wanted
    Oh yeah and she wanted to dance lol
  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 3,048 Member
    Neia wrote: »
    I find it funny that you mention Occam's Razor.
    Yeah, Occam's Razor seems like a weird thing to call on when this whole conversation seems to be a lot of complicated theorizing and assuming based on very little information.

    Plus, invoking Occam's Razor can be debatable as having significant meaning in general, since one person might perceive one explanation to be more simple and probable than another. While another perceives a different explanation to be more simple and probable. Without constructing a potentially complicated argument to explain logically why one explanation is definitively more simple and probable, Occam's Razor might as well be as meaningful as invoking pixie dust. In my experience, Occam's Razor is usually most applicable and useful in well-established arguments, where the relevant points have been discussed across society extensively and the details - and therefore the simplicity or probability of certain factors - are, at least, easier to grasp with little explanation by most people, if not already known.

    In other words, it's an interesting tool in serious thinking, but it's generally not very meaningful in casual argumentation on the internet. But then, phrases like it in general can be problematic as a thing to invoke in casual argumentation, as they tend to draw the focus away from the arguments and instead put the focus on the rightness or wrongness of whether the arguments in question are allowed to exist within the confine's of the phrase's box. Generally, if somebody already gets why the special phrase is relevant, they have no need for the phrase, and if somebody doesn't get why the special phrase is relevant, then invoking it will just contribute to losing sight of what the point is.
    Mods moved from MTS, now hosted at: https://triplis.github.io
  • CandydCandyd Posts: 1,261 Member
    This thread is very interesting, but frankly, I have no idea where all these endless word soups that appeared in the last pages are leading. Not that I don't know the ideas people are talking about, but more the point they're trying to prove. Or the point of the argument in general. Not sure if it even has anything to do with the original topic ? Whatever it is, I can't even manage to read that stuff.
    Just saying.
  • Writin_RegWritin_Reg Posts: 28,907 Member
    Personally I feel this is all water long over the dam - and instead of all this focus on what was instead of what is to come - should be where we all need to go. What happens tomorrow and all the tomorrows ahead is what matters now - don't you all think?

    What is done is done - can't be changed - and we need to reserve our efforts to new content and then scrap about it all if it fails your expectations or love it if it doesn't. No sense in haggling over old news technically unless you have a wayback machine and we can all live that period over - we have to ask ourselves does that even matter any more. This is now - how about we at least move forward perhaps.

    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    In dreams - I LIVE!
    In REALITY, I simply exist.....

  • SimGuruDrakeSimGuruDrake Posts: 1,648 SimGuru (retired)
    Happy Friday!

    Hopping in here because I noticed my name being thrown around a lot :)

    1. With regards to the 5M pin - Someone tried to take a comment I made towards a remark in a larger conversation as being confirmation on something that I did not respond to. I corrected them and that was all.
    2. I am not a PR person, I am a Community Manager. They are not one in the same. I am fairly honest with you as much as I can be while PR tends to spin things. I have been very direct with you and choose not to sugar coat things because I believe you are all intelligent and should not be talked down to like children.
    3. Team movements are none of your concern. Unless you work directly inside this studio or within EA there is zero reason why we would have to tell you about anyone moving off to work on other projects. As I've stated many a time in the last few days: This has had zero impact on our development. You don't know how long we've been working on this project (and no I will not discuss it as it is not my place) and you didn't even seem to notice the change until a SimGuru mentioned it.
    4. We've said time and time again that there is no pattern to our releases. Bowling Night Stuff released when it was supposed to. The GP will be talked about when we want to and not before. And no, the announcement and soft launch release of The Sims Mobile did not impact our announcement for the upcoming GP. Content is being produced, developed, and released at the rate that we've mapped out internally, anything else is just speculation on your part.

    phew, I think I covered the major bits I was thrown into. If not, ask away!

    I hope you all have a lovely weekend :)
    Global Community Manager for Maxis / The Sims
  • king_of_simcity7king_of_simcity7 Posts: 25,073 Member
    > @SimGuruDrake said:
    > Happy Friday!
    >
    > Hopping in here because I noticed my name being thrown around a lot :)
    >
    > 1. With regards to the 5M pin - Someone tried to take a comment I made towards a remark in a larger conversation as being confirmation on something that I did not respond to. I corrected them and that was all.
    > 2. I am not a PR person, I am a Community Manager. They are not one in the same. I am fairly honest with you as much as I can be while PR tends to spin things. I have been very direct with you and choose not to sugar coat things because I believe you are all intelligent and should not be talked down to like children.
    > 3. Team movements are none of your concern. Unless you work directly inside this studio or within EA there is zero reason why we would have to tell you about anyone moving off to work on other projects. As I've stated many a time in the last few days: This has had zero impact on our development. You don't know how long we've been working on this project (and no I will not discuss it as it is not my place) and you didn't even seem to notice the change until a SimGuru mentioned it.
    > 4. We've said time and time again that there is no pattern to our releases. Bowling Night Stuff released when it was supposed to. The GP will be talked about when we want to and not before. And no, the announcement and soft launch release of The Sims Mobile did not impact our announcement for the upcoming GP. Content is being produced, developed, and released at the rate that we've mapped out internally, anything else is just speculation on your part.
    >
    > phew, I think I covered the major bits I was thrown into. If not, ask away!
    >
    > I hope you all have a lovely weekend :)

    Thanks for stepping in and thanks for fixing my profile (if it was you who fixed it) :)

    Slightly off topic but 'new members' are not yet fully members yet which is why still so not have full privileges so hopfully that gets fixed soon when you get time :)
    Simbourne
    screenshot_original.jpg
  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    edited May 2017
    Neia wrote: »
    Neia wrote: »
    @DeservedCriticism
    I find it funny that you mention Occam's Razor and the 5M in the same post, when you went out of your way to find others explanations ('Upon careful inspection the design of the plumbob on the badge doesn't fit ', 'Grey is the color of achievement that haven't been fulfilled yet'), when the most straightforward explanation of a 5M badges among TS4 badges is a badge to celebrate 5M sales of TS4.
    ?
    The question is did they say it was 5 million sales?

    They didn't confim or deny it at that time, but they have said they were above 5 millions afterward.
    A year after tweeting that button. That's just really odd and I still believe they made up an artifical connection there (between the button and how many copies the game finally had sold a year later, after toddlers had been added).

    (@jusMeh very much enjoyed your posts/rants; glad someone took the effort to nail that for once)
    5JZ57S6.png
  • mirta000mirta000 Posts: 2,969 Member
    ^
    exactly this. How is it none of our concern that the main franchise seems to get less attention than before and you guys are developing spin offs for mobile in the mean time? Especially with the current state of the game?

    That just sounds like PC gamers are not good enough and we should invest our cash into something else.
    The new thang that I do now is 100 baby challenge in The Sims 3 (it's my first time!)!


  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 3,048 Member
    MissCherie wrote: »
    This has had zero impact on our development. You don't know how long we've been working on this project (and no I will not discuss it as it is not my place) and you didn't even seem to notice the change until a SimGuru mentioned it.

    I'm sorry what? I don't want to sound disrespectful, but where have you been the past year or so? It is often discussed how slow the EP are coming, it was said by Graham (if I remember correctly), that the EP production would slow down to one a year beside every few months.

    We did notice the change, the right thing to say would be to say we didn't knew why, but saying that we didn't even notice is insulting, and it show that you think we are plum.


    I believe Drake was saying "you didn't seem to notice it" meaning we didn't notice the difference in output, with regards to team members moving, until it was mentioned explicitly and then any ill opinions about the speed of delivery were attributed to that? People have been commenting on the speed of EP delivery probably going as far back as not long after launch. I know I haven't seen any significant difference in what people are saying about it over time; just that the same people consistently think EPs are coming too slow because they aren't used to GPs taking up part of the production cycle.
    Mods moved from MTS, now hosted at: https://triplis.github.io
  • SimGuruDrakeSimGuruDrake Posts: 1,648 SimGuru (retired)
    edited May 2017
    MissCherie wrote: »
    This has had zero impact on our development. You don't know how long we've been working on this project (and no I will not discuss it as it is not my place) and you didn't even seem to notice the change until a SimGuru mentioned it.

    I'm sorry what? I don't want to sound disrespectful, but where have you been the past year or so? It is often discussed how slow the EP are coming, it was said by Graham (if I remember correctly), that the EP production would slow down to one a year beside every few months.

    We did notice the change, the right thing to say would be to say we didn't knew why, but saying that we didn't even notice is insulting, and it show that you think we are plum.

    I will give you this one warning: Please refrain from making statements about what I do and do not think of this community.

    The Sims 4 is a different game compared to the past iterations and we are treating it differently. From the content we produce to the way we market the product. You assumed that we were going to keep things the way they were before, that was not something we confirmed nor did we ever promise that we would do that with this iteration. What we have done is brought a new experience into the Stuff Packs, introduced Game Packs, and have been bringing new experiences with our Expansion Packs. We made the decision prior to The Sims 4 releasing to no longer have split teams (meaning not all at EARS) which has proven to be in the best interest of the game and having a stable product since all things are developed side by side and can be cross checked with one another.
    Global Community Manager for Maxis / The Sims
  • FairyGodMotherFairyGodMother Posts: 7,404 Member
    I don't understand why people fuss about who is working on what, and why things are not done soon enough? I don't care (but obviously some do) at all, I look at the game, as a game. Doesn't matter who is working behind the game. If I enjoy it, I play it!
  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 3,048 Member
    mirta000 wrote: »
    ^
    exactly this. How is it none of our concern that the main franchise seems to get less attention than before and you guys are developing spin offs for mobile in the mean time? Especially with the current state of the game?

    That just sounds like PC gamers are not good enough and we should invest our cash into something else.
    What's wrong with the current state of the game? I'm not following you on that point.
    Mods moved from MTS, now hosted at: https://triplis.github.io
  • mirta000mirta000 Posts: 2,969 Member
    I will give you this one warning: Please refrain from making statements about what I do and do not think of this community.

    The Sims 4 is a different game compared to the past iterations and we are treating it differently. From the content we produce to the way we market the product. You assumed that we were going to keep things the way they were before, that was not something we confirmed nor did we ever promise that we would do that with this iteration. What we have done is brought a new experience into the Stuff Packs, introduced Game Packs, and have been bringing new experiences with our Expansion Packs. We made the decision prior to The Sims 4 releasing to no longer have split teams (meaning not all at EARS) which has proven to be in the best interest of the game and having a stable product since all things are developed side by side and can be cross checked with one another.

    However TS4 currently is more bugged than TS3 ever was. Meaning how is it a more stable product when it's boarderline unplayable?
    What does best interest for the game mean even? Best profits for EA? Or what the buyers prefer? Because one thing that is very obvious to me is that buyers are not asking for this slew of stuff packs and that a lot of people are feeling the content drought all the time, even though you release more often, because you're releasing less meaningful content.
    The new thang that I do now is 100 baby challenge in The Sims 3 (it's my first time!)!


  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 3,048 Member
    mirta000 wrote: »
    I will give you this one warning: Please refrain from making statements about what I do and do not think of this community.

    The Sims 4 is a different game compared to the past iterations and we are treating it differently. From the content we produce to the way we market the product. You assumed that we were going to keep things the way they were before, that was not something we confirmed nor did we ever promise that we would do that with this iteration. What we have done is brought a new experience into the Stuff Packs, introduced Game Packs, and have been bringing new experiences with our Expansion Packs. We made the decision prior to The Sims 4 releasing to no longer have split teams (meaning not all at EARS) which has proven to be in the best interest of the game and having a stable product since all things are developed side by side and can be cross checked with one another.

    However TS4 currently is more bugged than TS3 ever was. Meaning how is it a more stable product when it's boarderline unplayable?
    What does best interest for the game mean even? Best profits for EA? Or what the buyers prefer? Because one thing that is very obvious to me is that buyers are not asking for this slew of stuff packs and that a lot of people are feeling the content drought all the time, even though you release more often, because you're releasing less meaningful content.
    Ok, so I'd like to know what information you have that I am missing that confirms what you're saying.

    "TS4 is more bugged than TS3" In what way?

    "borderline unplayable" In what way is it unplayable?

    "a lot are feeling the content drought all the time" What is a lot and who are they?

    "less meaningful content" Isn't that just an opinion-based value judgment?
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  • mirta000mirta000 Posts: 2,969 Member
    edited May 2017
    Triplis wrote: »
    What's wrong with the current state of the game? I'm not following you on that point.

    let's see, random issues:

    1. Simulation lag (this is a BIG ONE. IT goes as far as whole saves being unplayable because sims just... Freeze without movement. It's like whole AI gets dropped over time)
    2. musical chairs still present in Dine Out areas
    3. Chefs getting stuck in dine out, not serving food, meaning practically the whole GP is worthless
    4. waterslide is bugged
    5. butler prevents you from entering speed 4
    6. speed 4 not working in most of City Living areas, sometimes speed 3 won't work either
    7. vampires are getting assigned as NPCs and burning to death
    8. vampires randomly dropping by, standing outside and burning to death (want to have a vampire? Whatever you do, don't switch your active household away from them)
    9. singing bug still present
    10. GTW careers having bugged progression goals, impossible to progress without cheating
    11. Get Together clubs resetting points and sometimes even members
    12. adults inviting children on dates (now this just gives really bad vibes to some people that experienced violence in their early lives)

    there are many many more. Legitimately every piece of content I buy gets broken a few months in, leaving me unable to use it.
    The new thang that I do now is 100 baby challenge in The Sims 3 (it's my first time!)!


  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 3,048 Member
    edited May 2017
    mirta000 wrote: »
    let's see, random issues:

    1. Simulation lag (this is a BIG ONE. IT goes as far as whole saves being unplayable because sims just... Freeze without movement. It's like whole AI gets dropped over time)
    2. musical chairs still present in Dine Out areas
    3. Chefs getting stuck in dine out, not serving food, meaning practically the whole GP is worthless
    4. waterslide is bugged
    5. butler prevents you from entering speed 4
    6. speed 4 not working in most of City Living areas, sometimes speed 3 won't work either
    7. vampires are getting assigned as NPCs and burning to death
    8. vampires randomly dropping by, standing outside and burning to death (want to have a vampire? Whatever you do, don't switch your active household away from them)
    9. singing bug still present
    10. GTW careers having bugged progression goals, impossible to progress without cheating
    11. Get Together clubs resetting points and sometimes even members

    there are many many more. Legitimately every piece of content I buy gets broken a few months in, leaving me unable to use it.
    Oh yeah, you were the one having a lot of trouble with speed 4 in CL, weren't you? Still happening, I take it.

    As far as my experience goes:

    1) I've never seen lag like this, I don't think, but maybe it's because I have a fairly high-end machine. It might be something that's exacerbated with lower-end machines, or in saves that go on a while.

    2/3) Ah, I guess I've missed these cause I haven't done Dine Out much. I'm not sure I see how you come to the conclusion that the GP is practically worthless because of Chefs getting stuck sometimes, but it sounds like it can be very aggravating.

    4) I've never seen this. How is it bugged?

    5) I don't think that's a bug, so much as an unintended consequence of how Butlers are designed. Or have they stated that you're supposed to be able to go into speed 4 with Butlers?

    7-8) I haven't seen this one, but I've heard about it before.

    9) Yeah, I remember that one. At least there's a workaround, restarting the game. Probably more annoying to do if you're on a slower machine.

    10) When and who? I've never encountered this. It's been a long time since I played GTW careers, but I don't remember any game-breaking progression bugs.

    11) I thought they fixed something to do with points resetting. Is there an issue still happening with that?
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