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What happened to The Sims? How it lost its way - a ramble for the developers and the fans.

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    PHOEBESMOM601PHOEBESMOM601 Posts: 14,595 Member


    Marvelous post.



    animated%2Bapplause.gif
    "People really love to explore 'failure states. In fact, the failure states are really much more interesting than the success states." ~ Will Wright
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    MandylcdMandylcd Posts: 1,713 Member
    Well said, MrHawk-and, nice to see you again!
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    JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    They need someone like you in the team OP. A bunch of yous rather ;)
    Although I have enjoyed Sims 3 for five years now and still am, you did touch on some painful areas in the game and it could be so much better. I hope someone 'up there' will read this and see the light.

    Chapeau!
    5JZ57S6.png
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    momboqueenmomboqueen Posts: 1,721 Member
    nicely put @MrHawk and welcome back!
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    meeounmeeoun Posts: 2,173 Member
    edited May 2015
    @MrHawk You write so well. I wish I could write that well. My posts/replies often come off as complaining/whiny. Your post thoroughly explain many gripes that I too share. Except without the bewailing tone my posts often display. What a wonderful example of effective persuasive writing. Very good feedback. I really do hope someone in the studio takes the time to read it.
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    DarkMirageDarkMirage Posts: 5,998 Member
    Brilliant post! You stated exactly how I feel about this game.
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    jcp011c2jcp011c2 Posts: 10,875 Member
    Question, I wasn't around on the forums from when Sims 3 came out and Sims 2 was wrapping up. Does it seem like more people have dropped Sims 4 or were dropping previous games? I'm asking in this thread because I'm trying to figure out if they lost their way just with Sims 4 or if it was coming previously; also how reaction was to sims 3's release.
    It's kind of sad that I have to point out that anything I say is only just my opinion and may be a different one from someone else.
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    ReclusivesimReclusivesim Posts: 65 Member
    @MrHawk I hope (as windweaver Suggested) that you do send this in. You make a good voice for the players.
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    Simmer_RaySimmer_Ray Posts: 534 Member
    this brung so many emotion to my heart you should send this to them or some game reporter like the one who wrote about toddler i have spoke to him and he really interested in us simmer and he want to stay informed
    6d857729b5cf50b45c3a0cb8a112146f.gif
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    MiamineMiamine Posts: 731 Member
    edited May 2015
    jcp011c2 wrote: »
    Question, I wasn't around on the forums from when Sims 3 came out and Sims 2 was wrapping up. Does it seem like more people have dropped Sims 4 or were dropping previous games? I'm asking in this thread because I'm trying to figure out if they lost their way just with Sims 4 or if it was coming previously; also how reaction was to sims 3's release.

    If I recall, and remember Simmers are all different and want different things... The announcement of Sims 3 was met with much joy and celebration.... until the modders and creators went to base camp and started writing their reviews. The problems were...

    1. They didn't like the look of the sims, (they were different from 2)
    2. The open world was wonderful, but created problems for those wanting rotational play
    3. Story progression, and emphasis on only playing one main family (again, problems for rotational play)
    4. Moodlet's and buffs, remind people of a RPG game (not sandbox enough)

    Think game was delayed, and story progression worked upon. So game eventually allowed you to change households (with penalties) Majority of simmers seemed to dump Sims 2 in exchange for Sims 3. The open world, story progression and CAST was a big draw. Most seemed to love Sims 3 and spent a ton of money on it.

    A large minority, including some modders, either continued with Sims 2, or quit completely, or tried Sims 3 for a little while and then went back to Sims 2. That's why now your seeing a lot of Sims 2 players voicing their opinion's. They never disappeared, they just didn't play Sims 3. The make up of these boards are probably a good a guide as any for who kept playing Sims 2. There are strong Sims 2 communities over at places like Mod the Sims, and anecdotal comments across the web suggest that a ton of men stopped playing after sims 2 (or Sims 1) seems the expansion packs turned them off. (But that's just me noticing such comments) Since Sims 1, I never seen so many Simmers refusing even to buy the latest game, and the petitions (20,000 signed) and discontent across the web and hitting the newspapers is like nothing I ever seen before. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking the reception of Sims 3 was as bad as this.

    Sims 4 is a special thing... and I'm in the Sims 2 camp, (bought sims 3 late) and think Sims 4 is so uninteresting (but good, cause all sims games are good) that I still haven't even tried the trial they sent.
    SIMS 3:YOU’VE NEVER SEEN THE SIMS LIKE THIS BEFORE! This #1 bestselling award-winner* is better than ever on iPhone and iPod. Contains direct links to the Internet; Collects data though third party ad serving analytics technology. EA may retire online features and services after 30 days’ notice.
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    ScobreScobre Posts: 20,665 Member
    yunagarnet wrote: »
    This, this this! You guys hit the nail on the head. I dislike seeing those comments where people imply that only TS3 fans dislike TS4 because it's completely untrue. A lot of simmers dislike TS4. Heck, even simmers that liked the TS4 are beginning to dislike it now.
    So true. Like I loved the Sims 1, 2, and Life Stories series. Sims 3 was ok, but removed one of my playstyles. I don't like how the Sims 4 has done what the Sims 3 did but to the extreme by removing even more of my playstyles.
    “Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
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    TheMomminatorTheMomminator Posts: 4,215 Member
    Interesting post. I agree with a lot of it but not all. I didn't play TS2 so I'll take your word for it and OFB. I mostly disagree with your ideas about the store in TS3. Not all the content released was good but there was some very good stuff there. The worlds, in particular, were well made and beautiful. They were content worth paying for, IMO.
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    MrHawkMrHawk Posts: 4,345 Member
    Miamine wrote: »
    jcp011c2 wrote: »
    Question, I wasn't around on the forums from when Sims 3 came out and Sims 2 was wrapping up. Does it seem like more people have dropped Sims 4 or were dropping previous games? I'm asking in this thread because I'm trying to figure out if they lost their way just with Sims 4 or if it was coming previously; also how reaction was to sims 3's release.

    If I recall, and remember Simmers are all different and want different things... The announcement of Sims 3 was met with much joy and celebration.... until the modders and creators went to base camp and started writing their reviews. The problems were...

    1. They didn't like the look of the sims, (they were different from 2)
    2. The open world was wonderful, but created problems for those wanting rotational play
    3. Story progression, and emphasis on only playing one main family (again, problems for rotational play)
    4. Moodlet's and buffs, remind people of a RPG game (not sandbox enough)

    Think game was delayed, and story progression worked upon. So game eventually allowed you to change households (with penalties) Majority of simmers seemed to dump Sims 2 in exchange for Sims 3. The open world, story progression and CAST was a big draw. Most seemed to love Sims 3 and spent a ton of money on it.

    A large minority, including some modders, either continued with Sims 2, or quit completely, or tried Sims 3 for a little while and then went back to Sims 2. That's why now your seeing a lot of Sims 2 players voicing their opinion's. They never disappeared, they just didn't play Sims 3. The make up of these boards are probably a good a guide as any for who kept playing Sims 2. There are strong Sims 2 communities over at places like Mod the Sims, and anecdotal comments across the web suggest that a ton of men stopped playing after sims 2 (or Sims 1) seems the expansion packs turned them off. (But that's just me noticing such comments) Since Sims 1, I never seen so many Simmers refusing even to buy the latest game, and the petitions (20,000 signed) and discontent across the web and hitting the newspapers is like nothing I ever seen before. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking the reception of Sims 3 was as bad as this.

    Sims 4 is a special thing... and I'm in the Sims 2 camp, (bought sims 3 late) and think Sims 4 is so uninteresting (but good, cause all sims games are good) that I still haven't even tried the trial they sent.

    This pretty much summed up what I was going to say
    There was some drama when creators went to see the Sims 3 before it came out and people loathed the "pudding faces" but you're not going to have everyone on board. People stopped playing after 2 came out, so you had the same with 3 and 4. With 4 though, it wasn't "I'm losing interest" or "Not my thing", there's a lot more discontent with how EA and devs are handling it. People don't WANT to bypass it but feel like it's bad enough to forgo totally. It's in larger numbers than previous and it' being noticed by people on the outside of the fandom.

    Hiya Psych.

    I think you're pretty spot on here.

    It's been interesting coming back here because I see many new faces. To me, I'm not sure if they're new for TS4 or returnees back to a semblence of rotational play. Someone might be able to point that out.

    I wasn't vocally active on the TS2 boards but did frequent them. I remember the backlash against TS3 but didn't wholly agree because I was trading one for the other. I was upset at the launch of a game with the story progression toggle button broken. When TS3 launched I spent the time building families for Sun Song Avenue, demolishing the houses there. One by one I went down the street, building a new house and a new family, with the intention of sitting back and watching the neighbours live there lives, as I could semi-do in TS2. It was when I switched back to find my single sim in the fifth house (who was supposed to fall in love with the daughter of the first house) standing in his living room with a newborn infant on the floor. Whose baby? Mystery Unnamed Woman. I felt this wasn't "story progression" but interference. I then understood the lamentations of TS2players.

    I then proceeded to play the game, knowing it was missing much of the charm of 1 and 2, until the continuous bugs introduced by new, insufficiently (and sometimes conflicting) content, stopped me from doing so. The rest of the time I spent reorganising, modding and laughing at it. I never truly got to sit down and play the way I wanted to. I felt like I was supposed to be a Gen Y teen or Millenial in order to appreciate it. By that, I mean not have the critical eye or attention span to see below the surface.

    The Sims 3 was like a Michael Bay film. Lots of bang for your buck, but little underlying substance. There was no "why" behind the actions of the sims. This is what needed to be changed. TS4? Pixar meets Passions.
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    MrHawkMrHawk Posts: 4,345 Member
    Interesting post. I agree with a lot of it but not all. I didn't play TS2 so I'll take your word for it and OFB. I mostly disagree with your ideas about the store in TS3. Not all the content released was good but there was some very good stuff there. The worlds, in particular, were well made and beautiful. They were content worth paying for, IMO.

    Yes, the worlds were wonderful, particularly Lucky Palms and Aurora Skies. My point was the beauty was layered over a shallower foundation than they should have been.

    More effort into the base = far more appreciation for additional content, IMHO. Additional content should be a reason for us to play something we already love and have exhausted, not to make it more playable. I hope I'm explaining myself well enough.

    I think much of my disappointment at the store was not with the aesthetic additions. The Indian set, the Hewnsman set, and other aesthetic additions got a lot of use from me. It was the so-called "premium content" that left the sourest taste in my mouth.

    Nobody can, with honesty, say that the hot air balloon released through the store was a well-conceived and well-constructed, useful addition to gameplay. :neutral:

    But man, Aurora Skies itself was beautiful. I think that'll be the first world I redo lot by lot.

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    Mollypup9Mollypup9 Posts: 518 Member
    MrHawk wrote: »
    As some of you know, I ended up taking almost a year away from this series from around the release time of The Sims 4. This was not entirely due to my opinion of the game but that opinion did play a big part. I stayed away from the series for a long time and have recently gone back to modding for The Sims 3.

    When all of the pre-hype began to roll for TS4 many long-term players knew it was going to be a disaster. The unconfirmed yet widely known fact that it is a hastily recrafted version of TS Olympus, with the online format removed, has been discussed to death, so I'll leave it to a minimum here. On that though, let me say this. The developers should have finished the game as online and released it as such, but not included it in the main series. It should have been named as an online game and not a numbered entry into the main series.

    What really hits home with regards to the Sims is this. Since 2008-9 and up until recently it is obvious that the majority of focus and manpower is driven towards making new content to throw on top of the games. Prior to this we had expansion packs for TS2 that were fully formed and had a feeling of completion. Most of the included content felt like it had a well thought out reason for being included. Come TS3, this went out in favour of maximum amount of content.

    The development cycle went like this:

    -Release main The Sims 3 game (far too early -- it wasn't ready for release.)
    -Release a large number of store items and packs created at the same time as the base game. (Tiki, Storybook, Hewnsman, Bayside, Ultra Lounge, Jet Set, and a large number of clothes and hairstyles). How do we know they were made at the same time? They were released at the same time, in the base game there are corresponding hairstyles for different age groups and some of the Tiki and Storybook stuff is in the base game.
    -Decide on themes and create large numbers of items centred around that theme. (Victorian and Steampunk, Animals Abound, Egypt, France, China etc)
    -Split up these items into store packs and ep collections. It is fair to say that anything up to and including World Adventures was already worked on or near to completion once the base game was launched. In fact, the Victorian set in the store actually includes "Store batch 1" in the files, hinting that this was possibly supposed to be the first release in the store and things were shuffled around.

    While working on the mechanics of an EP, a large portion of the budget would have gone to creating item after item. All purely decorative and non-functional. This is why we have dozens of juice bar clones and eleventy squillion flippin' short dresses.

    What should have happened was the opposite. The content development budget should have skewed in the other direction. Money should have been flung into the fleshing out of the core game experience, rather than the shiny being thrown on top. We needed to see the detail present in TS2. No automagical procurement of dishes. Just swish them out of thin air? Cheap development. Burrito babies? Cheap development. Reduced functionality was the tradeoff in all cases, from cars to babies to everything in between.

    On the plus side, the reasons the game was praised and so successful was two-fold. The open world and CASt systems kept us occupied. The moments of greatness (of course each person has their favourites, but for me it was things like the acrobat animations) kept the fuel going. But most of all, it was the tease of new content fixing your game. Remember the deep fryer? It was announced and people thought they could flesh out their diners? When it was released that proved impossible because what kind of diner has people frying their own food? Ditto the Ice Cream Maker, the Bakery, the useless cash registers in the shops. Swipe to buy? Pssshhht. Cheap and stinking of "ok good enough, slap a price tag on it, they'll buy it anyway".

    And buy it all people did. The gamers, desperate to be happy with the game despite its flaws, kept buying, for the most part. The store was very successful. The game was not coded to support so much content, nor did it DESERVE it, but still they bought. I too am guilty.

    So here was the problem. The team were rewarded for putting less effort into the core content and more into the window dressing. It is their fault in the first place and our fault for financially rewarded rushed and shallow development for more content.

    If you're still reading, congratulations and thank you.

    So what did this process ultimately result it? THERE IS NO SOUL to the games any more. Look beneath the surface and what do you see? Not much. Sure, the grins on the faces of The Sims are wider and they jump up and down and pretend, but there is nothing underneath. For a life simulator, they are devoid of life. Sims stroll past the houses like automatons. We know they aren't coming from somewhere and they aren't going anyway. They are window dressing. Here's an experiment for you. Go to your nearest café and sit near the window. Order a large cup of your favourite beverage and take an hour to watch the people walking by. See their emotions, their stories and lives. You can fill in the gaps, but the soul is already there. These people are just like you.

    This is why I loved The Sims. It carried the potential for the player, as a god-like being to create, a household in a town and imbue it with their fantasies. With the wonderful aesthetic of 1950s American Suburbia as a backdrop, I could do this. It was the first in a series and I expected greatness from the sequel.

    And this is what I received. The Sims 2 took this aesthetic and expanded it greatly. I had 3-D, I had life and death and all lifestates in between. This addition of a full life cycle, coupled with the other most important ability of being able to create a town FROM SCRATCH and populate it, sold me to the series. I was now not only the God gamer but the COLONIST. I could created everything and then sit back and watch the town interact.

    TS2 Open for Business painted the future for me. I thought the future for The Sims would be a further expansion on this. I thought I would be able to create my gameplay style in The Sims 3, but with the wonderful benefit of having the town open and alive. I thought I would create an artisan street, a high-class district, a run-down district, an artists' colony, a farming colony etc etc. However, it APPEARED that I could, because all of the content was released, it was just never fully formed. I petitioned for Open for Business for years, vainly holding on to the hope than my colonist play style was going to eventually be catered to but it never was. Instead we got the horrid store content that did not function. The staff was let go shortly afterwards.

    I thought. OK, they've screwed it up. Maybe they'll take the five years of feedback and shuffle everything around. They will cull the staff responsible for chasing the quick dollar through constant releases and promote the voices of reason that would hold their ground for a fully fleshed out life simulation.

    I was wrong. The team is broken. We received The Sims 4. I don't even know what this game is. It's one big bandaid, a big "oh crap we were wrong" kneejerk reflex action.

    Maxis, you need some new blood. You need to get rid of whoever has made the decisions that have led to today and spend the next few years coding and brainstorming with humility and WITH A FULL VIEW of life outside. Get your everyday life done first. Don't go straight to secret agent, rocketships, luxury lifestyle bollocks. REAL, EVERYDAY LIFE. Life, birth, milestones, memories, death, hopes, dreams, tragedies, work, play, art, friendship, love and hate. Once that's done, layer the town. Commerce needs to be involved. Once a family is created, they need to live. I see you attempted this with Get To Work but this is useless if the base doesn't exist to build on. This should be in the base game.

    The town needs to support itself. I expected, at this point in the series, that I would be able to build a Sim in CAS and allocate his first profession there. Imagine building a family in CAS and making one of the parents a miner and the other a jewellery maker, and one of the uncles or aunts a retailer. BANG. Huge gameplay. Every day the miner leaves the home and goes to a part of the map where he repetitively digs for gemstones. This could be a mine lot or simply a rock pile. It doesn't matter. A mine lot would be best. At the end of the day he returns with a few gemstones. His jewellery maker wife then can use the tools in her workshop to create jewellery to sell at the uncle's shop. Is the miner good at his professions? Does he find top quality raw materials? Is the wife? Can she make top quality goods? Is the retailer? Can he sell? This is where true gameplay would lie, even without the micromanagement. A simple "Work for four hours" option would be beneficial. The same gameplay of the rabbitholes could be applied to objects. Bang. With one decision, those who hated rabbitholes are appeased and those who hated micromanaging jobs are appeased also. While this is happened, flick to miner junior at a desk in the school room, with the same "study for six hours" mechanic. Hover over. What's he studying. Geology? Artisanship? Cute, he takes after mum/dad.

    Wash rinse and repeat this for any number of industries. Farmers could choose any number of crops. Cotton? Instant ability for a crafting tree including clothing makers, models and retailers. Raw food materials? Leather makers, bakers, etc etc.

    IF THIS WAS IN THE BASE GAME, the team would be able to cater to the main wants through the base and the most wanted additions through additional content. Remember the glass blowing? It could have happened a much better way.

    So what is the most glaring problem with The Sims now? It has taken away the soul of the little people that inhabit the world. Is has taken away the ability for the player to create their own world. It has taken away the ability for the player to dream further than the developers did, and, to be honest, they didn't take it even any where near as far enough.

    By this point in the series I expect a combination of the soul of the Sims, which is the suburban, 1950s town aesthetic of the first game, the colony and family life of the second and the open world and freedom of customisation of the third. Simmers rarely want to play your vision, developers. They begrudgingly played it when there was no other option.

    What needs to happen? Complete The Sims 4 to the satisfaction of the current players. Do not abandon them. They deserve to play the game they enjoy.

    Go back to the drawing board. Get rid of those in the team that have led you to this Point.

    Go back to the creating the world along with the tools to allow the players true sandbox play. Build the world as a map, with players able to choose their own towns and add their own towns to the map. Allow the online integration to be completely social and most external. A purely "look what I made" kind of exchange. The gallery is good. But it should be for as large as neighbourhoods. And for god's sake. Police it! Nude Amber is vile. Police it or scrap it.

    By this point this game should be a combination of The Sims and the limited commerce / town functionality of older games such as Caesar, Pharaoh and Zeus. If any of you don't know what I mean, google these games.

    If necessary, for branding purposes, reboot the series. Release the base game with ALL the necessary funcitonality. Don't ever find the need to backward patch for things like Outerwear or the like. It's wrong and just shows a lack of foresight.

    Release a neighbourhood creator tool. Release a CAS editor tool. Release an item editor tool.

    If you can't do it, hire those that can.

    To all of those still reading, thank you. To all who disagree, that is your right. Have a lovely day and thank you.

    *Stands up, applauds loudly*

    Yes! Yes! Yes!

    I've tried to say it over and over, but you said it perfectly!! Thank you!
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    PsychYourMind08PsychYourMind08 Posts: 3,464 Member
    MrHawk wrote: »
    Miamine wrote: »
    jcp011c2 wrote: »
    Question, I wasn't around on the forums from when Sims 3 came out and Sims 2 was wrapping up. Does it seem like more people have dropped Sims 4 or were dropping previous games? I'm asking in this thread because I'm trying to figure out if they lost their way just with Sims 4 or if it was coming previously; also how reaction was to sims 3's release.

    If I recall, and remember Simmers are all different and want different things... The announcement of Sims 3 was met with much joy and celebration.... until the modders and creators went to base camp and started writing their reviews. The problems were...

    1. They didn't like the look of the sims, (they were different from 2)
    2. The open world was wonderful, but created problems for those wanting rotational play
    3. Story progression, and emphasis on only playing one main family (again, problems for rotational play)
    4. Moodlet's and buffs, remind people of a RPG game (not sandbox enough)

    Think game was delayed, and story progression worked upon. So game eventually allowed you to change households (with penalties) Majority of simmers seemed to dump Sims 2 in exchange for Sims 3. The open world, story progression and CAST was a big draw. Most seemed to love Sims 3 and spent a ton of money on it.

    A large minority, including some modders, either continued with Sims 2, or quit completely, or tried Sims 3 for a little while and then went back to Sims 2. That's why now your seeing a lot of Sims 2 players voicing their opinion's. They never disappeared, they just didn't play Sims 3. The make up of these boards are probably a good a guide as any for who kept playing Sims 2. There are strong Sims 2 communities over at places like Mod the Sims, and anecdotal comments across the web suggest that a ton of men stopped playing after sims 2 (or Sims 1) seems the expansion packs turned them off. (But that's just me noticing such comments) Since Sims 1, I never seen so many Simmers refusing even to buy the latest game, and the petitions (20,000 signed) and discontent across the web and hitting the newspapers is like nothing I ever seen before. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking the reception of Sims 3 was as bad as this.

    Sims 4 is a special thing... and I'm in the Sims 2 camp, (bought sims 3 late) and think Sims 4 is so uninteresting (but good, cause all sims games are good) that I still haven't even tried the trial they sent.

    This pretty much summed up what I was going to say
    There was some drama when creators went to see the Sims 3 before it came out and people loathed the "pudding faces" but you're not going to have everyone on board. People stopped playing after 2 came out, so you had the same with 3 and 4. With 4 though, it wasn't "I'm losing interest" or "Not my thing", there's a lot more discontent with how EA and devs are handling it. People don't WANT to bypass it but feel like it's bad enough to forgo totally. It's in larger numbers than previous and it' being noticed by people on the outside of the fandom.

    Hiya Psych.

    I think you're pretty spot on here.

    It's been interesting coming back here because I see many new faces. To me, I'm not sure if they're new for TS4 or returnees back to a semblence of rotational play. Someone might be able to point that out.

    I wasn't vocally active on the TS2 boards but did frequent them. I remember the backlash against TS3 but didn't wholly agree because I was trading one for the other. I was upset at the launch of a game with the story progression toggle button broken. When TS3 launched I spent the time building families for Sun Song Avenue, demolishing the houses there. One by one I went down the street, building a new house and a new family, with the intention of sitting back and watching the neighbours live there lives, as I could semi-do in TS2. It was when I switched back to find my single sim in the fifth house (who was supposed to fall in love with the daughter of the first house) standing in his living room with a newborn infant on the floor. Whose baby? Mystery Unnamed Woman. I felt this wasn't "story progression" but interference. I then understood the lamentations of TS2players.

    I then proceeded to play the game, knowing it was missing much of the charm of 1 and 2, until the continuous bugs introduced by new, insufficiently (and sometimes conflicting) content, stopped me from doing so. The rest of the time I spent reorganising, modding and laughing at it. I never truly got to sit down and play the way I wanted to. I felt like I was supposed to be a Gen Y teen or Millenial in order to appreciate it. By that, I mean not have the critical eye or attention span to see below the surface.

    The Sims 3 was like a Michael Bay film. Lots of bang for your buck, but little underlying substance. There was no "why" behind the actions of the sims. This is what needed to be changed. TS4? Pixar meets Passions.

    Oh, I totally agree with you in the Sims 3 front.

    The ideas they had and the features they implemented in theory were amazing - story progression, AI, an open community, no load screens, total immersion. It was glorious - but it had so many cracks under the surface. SIms themselves were pretty awful - I don't think you'll get many arguments here. Actually a lot of people can appreciate that part of 4. They did get the sims right for the most part as opposed to 3. I think many people were willing to forgive the mistakes in 3 because there were some radical changes meant to make the game bigger and better than 2 and they took risks to try to do that. They may or may not have worked, but they still tried.

    With 4 they just stripped everything out and didn't even try to improve it. That's my beef anyway. A lot of 2 players probably went back and love 4 because it has things in it that were not in Sims 3 (expressive sims, rotational-friendly play, closed off lots), or omitted things from 3 that people didn't like (story progression taking away from their specific stories, bugs, lagging)

    Sims 4 should have married features from 2 and 3 - like robust, alive sims in a breathable evolving open world. Along with the CAS of 4 with the CASt of 3.
    It feels like we are always downgrading in some way. Maybe it is intentional - so they can re-introduce a concept for a base game to "wow" players. Emotions aren't new. 1 had some great reactions and 2 nailed them down and had one of the best relationship systems in the series. The emotions were just scaled back so much in 3 that people wanted them back so badly they'd acccept them as the core driving force, which shouldn't have been the case.

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    EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 2,795 Member
    edited May 2015
    MrHawk wrote: »
    Neia wrote: »
    MrHawk wrote: »
    The town needs to support itself. I expected, at this point in the series, that I would be able to build a Sim in CAS and allocate his first profession there. Imagine building a family in CAS and making one of the parents a miner and the other a jewellery maker, and one of the uncles or aunts a retailer. BANG. Huge gameplay. Every day the miner leaves the home and goes to a part of the map where he repetitively digs for gemstones. This could be a mine lot or simply a rock pile. It doesn't matter. A mine lot would be best. At the end of the day he returns with a few gemstones. His jewellery maker wife then can use the tools in her workshop to create jewellery to sell at the uncle's shop. Is the miner good at his professions? Does he find top quality raw materials? Is the wife? Can she make top quality goods? Is the retailer? Can he sell? This is where true gameplay would lie, even without the micromanagement. A simple "Work for four hours" option would be beneficial. The same gameplay of the rabbitholes could be applied to objects. Bang. With one decision, those who hated rabbitholes are appeased and those who hated micromanaging jobs are appeased also. While this is happened, flick to miner junior at a desk in the school room, with the same "study for six hours" mechanic. Hover over. What's he studying. Geology? Artisanship? Cute, he takes after mum/dad.

    Wash rinse and repeat this for any number of industries. Farmers could choose any number of crops. Cotton? Instant ability for a crafting tree including clothing makers, models and retailers. Raw food materials? Leather makers, bakers, etc etc.

    For me, the Sims is a game about Sims, little people, not about their town. I want Sims game to be life simulators, not town simulators, and certainly not some crossover between Simcity and Fantasy Life. Pharaon, Caesar etc are excellent management games, but they are another genre completely. I would be really sad to see the life simulator turned into another economy management game with RPG elements. If I want to manage an economy, stocks and ressources, there are other games for that.

    The town in a Sims game is the setting of my own stories, it's not the main cast. The Sims are. I much more prefer the game to focus on the Sims themselves, their family unit, their friends, their colleagues, and what could make them more "human" : progressive aging, memories, emotions, learning process, genetics, consequences of actions, diverse relationships and personnalities.

    Thank you for your reply.

    You say the town is not the main cast, but any writer knows that the location a story is set in is one of the main characters, if not equally as important as the main character. With The Sims, the player is the director and casting agent, the art department and programming team are the production crew. Let me put it this way: The Sims 2 allowed the director the freedom to create the town to their imagination, with the limited technology available. The Sims 3 opened that up hugely, especially when CAW was released, but it took away from the depth of the Sims themselves to do so.

    I remember when Sims 3 was launched. Marketingspeak promised us a "living, breathing town full of interesting inhabitants" and I was so excited. I made my first Sim and played him for a while, then realised I could leave him to his own devices and check out the rest of the town. I was so impressed with the developers for thinking this big. However, this feeling dissipated when, house after house, I looked through the windows to see the sims standing around in a clump, doing nothing. There was no programming to animate them based on camera position. It was based on Sim+camera. These sims did nothing unless I and my Sim were there with them.

    What I think you may see as my attempt to shoehorn city building gameplay into a live simulator it is an attempt to imbue the sims of the town with a life without the director. True NPCs. The economy management option is limited to those participating. While it could branch out into "you can't build an ice cream shop without having a dairy farm" interface, this wouldn't have to be the way someone played the game. A sandbox should be a sandbox. We saw this problem with the continuous introduction of sim-affecting element in TS3 but no toggles to switch them off until later.

    You seem to be mistaking my ideas to flesh out the sims themselves with a living, breathing backdrop rather than a painted false one like TS4, with a game genre replacement scenario. Perhaps my post was overly long and not concise enough.

    The addition of the gameplay elements I was proposing to animate the town was hand-in-hand with the condition that human life elements you suggested are already in place.

    Sorry for any confusion.

    that is why i love sims 3 because for me life simulator is not just "play doll house" or just focus one place and forget the whole town, the perfect sims game could be a combo of simcity with the sims where you create your whole town then can place all your created sims on her and watch the town grow as you help or does more trouble for the sims, is you have options, be able to control the whole town and see things happen by itself get surprised or make things happen.

    well nowadays you can easy play sims 3 with almost 3non trouble thanks to mods which still working and improving the game, i have full faithfull sims in my game, i have players/cheaters, i control most of sims(100+) i like too learn more things thanks to mods i was able to make a bakery in the house of one of my couple which aways have customers and is fun see then working, see the things happen then while they are busing i go watching what is happening in the other side of the town where i'm not playing, is away fun see the whole world "alive" not just a "sitcom" where everything which is not on screen is on "rabitholle" and i feel like living in a empty place where the only way things happen or i can see something happening is by have to be all the times in the same place, being unable to send my sims to different places, unable to see the town being alivem everything looks like just a bunch of stages and paper devoid of real life.

    life simulator again is not just "play my beloved doll house but see the life happening and not just my current played family but the whole town, to get surprised and things like that.

    most of the times ending getting some funnies surprises in ths game and i love it(sims 3) and while i'm a proud gamer i really can't stand with this stu pid design of load screens which no matter how peoples say "i don't care" you don't see anymore any new game since 2010 being like that because only fail or indy or low budge companies does that, just look at others eas branch games and let's see how "much of then have all that load screens" then you can easy see how this is a "fail tactical and just a lazy way to avoid to deal with troubles which is naturally what compentent develop teams actually do when producing games, specially AAA companies (vide blizzard, LOL, BIOWARE and others).

    is funny when maxis is being the "ugly brother/son of the EA family" where all the others branchs are developing true games with the best tecnology they have not a outdated 32 bit one.
    Post edited by Ellessarr on
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    EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 2,795 Member
    and let' me be clear when i mean "doll house" is not just a girl or child play, but actually the game merchanic, being focused only in one place per time, like when you are playing with dolls, when you are a kid and is playing with your dolls you normally imagine a big world but you imagine all the focus on the place where you are playing, if you dolls are in they house then the focus of the play will be the house, if they are on the beach will be the beach, this is doll house you can't go outside that, you don't think about the "whole town or even your neighhood" what can be happen on there, because you normally don't try to play in 2 or more place at same time, that is when this is make lifesimlator very limited, because life is life, is about what is happen all around you, your hood, your town, what is happen with your friends while you are playing sims, or your family, real life is about surprise, when someone call your in phone saying which a friend or family died and you "discovere it" that is life!!, the life keep moving things keep happening the world "just don't frozen" around your waiting all your decisions, that is a big dinamic in life simulator, that is what maxis tried to achiev in sims 3 and that is a true step of life simulator and no matter many peoples don't like it, it's a true, is not liking you can't control everything in your world, but you can't have a "limited way to see things", you can still have full control over what will happen in the game but the world still moving, the day which passed in the game is not gonna come back, and many things happened on that day the fun part is control what you can and find about what you could not, have new experiences and surprises cuz this is part of life.

    otherwise is a really boring life when you can really controll 100% everything and even the time in game can't pass if you don't allow( and to be fair nrass also have that option to full frozen time have a lot of options), some aspects are important to have in game if you want a true life simulation experience, otherwise will be just playing "doll house".
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