Also, this looks like it may still continue to lead into the erasure of the sexes altogether, which I actually want my game to acknowledge. I still want one day to be able to set an all-female club to only flirt with males or females and vise versa. I want single Sims to one day have a sexual preference, like actual sex of the Sim, you know, like real people do. I just hope this doesn't start to blur the gender/sex lines completely for game recognition because that takes a whole lot of personal gameplay purpose and sexual identity away for a lot of players and what good would it do to sacrifice one identity for another? Because one is trending? You can't wedge in one identity by erasing another and then pat yourself on the back and call yourself "inclusive". I may be jumping the gun with my doubt, but I just hope they've been really thinking this through before going in and making a bunch of core changes.
"Actual" sex and and the sexual preferences of "real people" are a lot less binary than you seem to be implying they are.
That depends on who you talk to. Keep in mind that there are many people who are afraid to speak their true feelings out of fear of being persecuted by the angry mobs or accused of being "transphobic". There's a lot of aggression being thrown around (on all sides), especially on social media, and it can really intimidate and put fear into people. They're certainly not going to advertise feeling that way if they're going to be attacked for it.
This is getting off-topic, but I can guarantee you that the fear and aggression trans people experience on a daily basis just for existing, are far greater than that experienced by cis people for their language choices.
First, please don't turn this into a contest of "who is the biggest victim" because it's insulting and diminishing to all who suffer and I'm pretty sure that's not where you're trying to go with this. I do know that trans people are suffering, just as certain races suffer, just as certain sexualities suffer, just as women continue to suffer and it goes on and on depending on what parts of the world, what societies, what regions, what neighborhoods...we're talking about. None of it is "good" or "acceptable" suffering.
Second, you seem to spit out "cis" like it doesn't include gay, lesbian, bi, etc., race, class, disability, culture, victims of violence, mentally ill, detransitioners and anyone else "not trans" who also knows suffering, so maybe you could rethink your own stereotypes?
Except for detransitioners, trans people are also in every every single one of those categories. I am several myself (Black, queer, in a same-sex marriage, and have a lifelong history of clinical depression).
As to the remainder of your comment, I don't have the energy to do further education on this topic so I'm bowing out of this particular discussion.
I'm truly sorry to hear about your depression. I wish you well and, again, I wasn't trying to oppress or demonize the trans community so I apologize if that's how it came off. I was merely speaking up for an additional representation. Peace to you.
Biologists who have studied more than the hyper-simplified version most people learn in High School have said it's not that binary. I'm going with the science.
Do you have a link to any of those studies? I'd be genuinely interested to read them. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there's a general shift in non-binary preferences, but I don't think it's all-encompassing, especially when you take all of the cultures of the world into account. I also think that sexuality is complicated in itself and that, yes, most (or at least, many) people exist on a sliding scale of preference (and I believe it's the same for levels of masculinity/femininity but that's another debate) but eventually settle into a more static preference as they mature. But I also think for many others, their sexuality can be as simple as the "simplified high school" sex ed version.
I confess I'm not, in fact, a biologist. I speak from personal experiences and those that I know of the people in my life. They are by no means the majority of the population so of course there's always room for more information, lol. I often go with science as well, but I also go with the experiences of real people. I think there's room for both, after all, that's where biologists get their info from in the first place, yes?
Sexual Preferences are a completely different thing from Biological Expression or Gender Identity.
I'm not a Biologist either, but my daughter is a Bio Major, so most of my information has been her talking about it, or else I would provide links to studies (unless they were paywalled.)
But this isn't a cultural thing that can shift with cultural norms. Biologically, the definition of "male" and "female" isn't nearly as clear cut as we're taught in High School. One factoid that my kid regularly brings up is that 1 out of 300 people that we'd normally consider "biologically male" and expect to be chromosomally XY are actually XX, because it's not simply the Y chromosome that results in the expression of male characteristics. These people have male characteristics, and can impregnate someone who can be impregnated. But their chromosomes are XX, rather than XY. It's just that unless they're genetically tested, there's no way to know that. She's explained how it works, but as I don't need to know (while she does) it doesn't quite stick in my head. But this is something that's been known since... I want to say the 70's, but I'm not sure.
I mean, yes, I'm aware that there are occasional anomalies like that in development in different ranges. I know someone who is intersexed who had a very difficult and complicated life journey.
I will probably do some more research on my own because I like information and knowledge is good and I am a believer that humanity continues to evolve and change both psychologically and physically in many ways. But for now, I think I can comfortably settle with the idea that sexuality is just a multi-faceted part of our identities and the hows/whys of attraction are sometimes extremely complicated and varied. I personally don't feel at this time that these studies are necessarily an accurate representation of the majority of people I know personally, but I do also know some sexually fluid people as well as some with alternative lifestyles so it can't be discounted either. I also don't yet know what factors like age or genetics or generation might have influence (or not) in these studies or what the full statistics are. I only know, as I said before, my own experiences, preferences and the perspectives of the people I've had around me throughout my life who have shared theirs and I would not doubt or question their personal journeys regarding that because most of them are quite mature enough and settled in their lives nowadays to have that certainty.
I guess my bottom line in all of this is just that if someone does base their sexuality on sex and not gender, they should not be demonized or bullied for it. Leave them alone. Everyone has some kind of preference and should be allowed that without being pressured or persecuted. No one owes anyone their attraction.
Also, this looks like it may still continue to lead into the erasure of the sexes altogether, which I actually want my game to acknowledge. I still want one day to be able to set an all-female club to only flirt with males or females and vise versa. I want single Sims to one day have a sexual preference, like actual sex of the Sim, you know, like real people do. I just hope this doesn't start to blur the gender/sex lines completely for game recognition because that takes a whole lot of personal gameplay purpose and sexual identity away for a lot of players and what good would it do to sacrifice one identity for another? Because one is trending? You can't wedge in one identity by erasing another and then pat yourself on the back and call yourself "inclusive". I may be jumping the gun with my doubt, but I just hope they've been really thinking this through before going in and making a bunch of core changes.
"Actual" sex and and the sexual preferences of "real people" are a lot less binary than you seem to be implying they are.
That depends on who you talk to. Keep in mind that there are many people who are afraid to speak their true feelings out of fear of being persecuted by the angry mobs or accused of being "transphobic". There's a lot of aggression being thrown around (on all sides), especially on social media, and it can really intimidate and put fear into people. They're certainly not going to advertise feeling that way if they're going to be attacked for it.
This is getting off-topic, but I can guarantee you that the fear and aggression trans people experience on a daily basis just for existing, are far greater than that experienced by cis people for their language choices.
First, please don't turn this into a contest of "who is the biggest victim" because it's insulting and diminishing to all who suffer and I'm pretty sure that's not where you're trying to go with this. I do know that trans people are suffering, just as certain races suffer, just as certain sexualities suffer, just as women continue to suffer and it goes on and on depending on what parts of the world, what societies, what regions, what neighborhoods...we're talking about. None of it is "good" or "acceptable" suffering.
Second, you seem to spit out "cis" like it doesn't include gay, lesbian, bi, etc., race, class, disability, culture, victims of violence, mentally ill, detransitioners and anyone else "not trans" who also knows suffering, so maybe you could rethink your own stereotypes?
Third, my statement was about a lot more than "language choices", it was about other identity types. Gender is not the one and only aspect of a human identity and I was specifically addressing sexual identity. Identity is different for every single person and different people prioritize different aspects. None are more important than others because it's all personal and all important. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I can accept that, if you can.
Finally, in case you are misunderstanding and jumping into fight mode by habit, my entire argument is not about trying to block pronouns from coming into the game. I think having the option is great and necessary for those who feel strongly about having it, and I like that it's completely flexible as well as optional to view so everyone can have their own way in their own games, as it should be. My concern has always been about the mechanics, about being able to also have sexual identity and biological sex because they are still real things to real people, just as pronouns and trans identity are real things to real people. They coexist. Inclusivity is inclusivity and with a lot of the dialogue becoming gender neutral, my concern has been that it will prevent the ability for Sims to choose a preferred sex (or gender) down the line. I voice my concerns in hopes that developers will take it into consideration and we can all one day customize the game as we want it.
Exactly Inclusivity means everyone, both sides of the political spectrum are both really bigoted, honestly I don't want to get more into this since talking about Inclusivity tends to get political.
"Actual" sex and and the sexual preferences of "real people" are a lot less binary than you seem to be implying they are.
That depends on who you talk to.
If you talk to researchers who have spent 30+ years on this, it's a lot less binary. Also, we are rarely attracted to a person's sex, and much more attracted to their gender. Breasts are usually the exception here.
That's interesting! "Breasts are the exception", lol. I don't know why I find that funny.
So... I really want to have more of this conversation because it's truly interesting, but I don't know if I can keep it "PG" and I also don't want to derail the thread or offend anyone here with certain contradictory "findings" of my own, lol.
I'll just say that I've known people who had specific preferences that lead me to believe it's at least a combination of sorts when gender presentation didn't matter but sex did. I guess you can't paint everyone with the same brush.
I doubt anyone could keep a conversation about Breasts "PG".
My Issue with Diversity is that it's not usually done right, I support it it if it's done properly,however it's mostly just stereotypes whenever diversity is done by major corporations, I'm not saying it's a bad idea just that you should keep your expectations low.
Yes. They put new clothing and hair that had bows, ribbons, stereotypical feminine designs... Then put it under masculine as well. I have no problem with men wearing traditionally feminine outfits, but if the sims team wants to show they agree with that they should make the clothing fit both body frames, instead of throwing it in for men when it doesn't fit right and is not actually masculine.
I will be happy to filter by feminine for my male sims when the outfits do not morph their bodies around.
Also, this looks like it may still continue to lead into the erasure of the sexes altogether, which I actually want my game to acknowledge. I still want one day to be able to set an all-female club to only flirt with males or females and vise versa. I want single Sims to one day have a sexual preference, like actual sex of the Sim, you know, like real people do. I just hope this doesn't start to blur the gender/sex lines completely for game recognition because that takes a whole lot of personal gameplay purpose and sexual identity away for a lot of players and what good would it do to sacrifice one identity for another? Because one is trending? You can't wedge in one identity by erasing another and then pat yourself on the back and call yourself "inclusive". I may be jumping the gun with my doubt, but I just hope they've been really thinking this through before going in and making a bunch of core changes.
"Actual" sex and and the sexual preferences of "real people" are a lot less binary than you seem to be implying they are.
That depends on who you talk to. Keep in mind that there are many people who are afraid to speak their true feelings out of fear of being persecuted by the angry mobs or accused of being "transphobic". There's a lot of aggression being thrown around (on all sides), especially on social media, and it can really intimidate and put fear into people. They're certainly not going to advertise feeling that way if they're going to be attacked for it.
This is getting off-topic, but I can guarantee you that the fear and aggression trans people experience on a daily basis just for existing, are far greater than that experienced by cis people for their language choices.
First, please don't turn this into a contest of "who is the biggest victim" because it's insulting and diminishing to all who suffer and I'm pretty sure that's not where you're trying to go with this. I do know that trans people are suffering, just as certain races suffer, just as certain sexualities suffer, just as women continue to suffer and it goes on and on depending on what parts of the world, what societies, what regions, what neighborhoods...we're talking about. None of it is "good" or "acceptable" suffering.
Second, you seem to spit out "cis" like it doesn't include gay, lesbian, bi, etc., race, class, disability, culture, victims of violence, mentally ill, detransitioners and anyone else "not trans" who also knows suffering, so maybe you could rethink your own stereotypes?
Third, my statement was about a lot more than "language choices", it was about other identity types. Gender is not the one and only aspect of a human identity and I was specifically addressing sexual identity. Identity is different for every single person and different people prioritize different aspects. None are more important than others because it's all personal and all important. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I can accept that, if you can.
Finally, in case you are misunderstanding and jumping into fight mode by habit, my entire argument is not about trying to block pronouns from coming into the game. I think having the option is great and necessary for those who feel strongly about having it, and I like that it's completely flexible as well as optional to view so everyone can have their own way in their own games, as it should be. My concern has always been about the mechanics, about being able to also have sexual identity and biological sex because they are still real things to real people, just as pronouns and trans identity are real things to real people. They coexist. Inclusivity is inclusivity and with a lot of the dialogue becoming gender neutral, my concern has been that it will prevent the ability for Sims to choose a preferred sex (or gender) down the line. I voice my concerns in hopes that developers will take it into consideration and we can all one day customize the game as we want it.
Exactly Inclusivity means everyone, both sides of the political spectrum are both really bigoted, honestly I don't want to get more into this since talking about Inclusivity tends to get political.
"Actual" sex and and the sexual preferences of "real people" are a lot less binary than you seem to be implying they are.
That depends on who you talk to.
If you talk to researchers who have spent 30+ years on this, it's a lot less binary. Also, we are rarely attracted to a person's sex, and much more attracted to their gender. Breasts are usually the exception here.
That's interesting! "Breasts are the exception", lol. I don't know why I find that funny.
So... I really want to have more of this conversation because it's truly interesting, but I don't know if I can keep it "PG" and I also don't want to derail the thread or offend anyone here with certain contradictory "findings" of my own, lol.
I'll just say that I've known people who had specific preferences that lead me to believe it's at least a combination of sorts when gender presentation didn't matter but sex did. I guess you can't paint everyone with the same brush.
I doubt anyone could keep a conversation about Breasts "PG".
I don't see the conversation as political so much as humanitarian at its core. I don't think that people are necessarily bigoted, there will always be some, of course, but I do think that everyone, in all groups, no matter which one you identify with, could be a little more compassionate and respectful to others and remember to give the benefit of the doubt before jumping to conclusions. We all do it at some point because we all make mistakes and we all have things that trigger our passions because we are all simply human. But we are all also capable of correcting our own faulty behaviors and moving forward and evolving. It just takes a little effort and willingness to understand. Look at that, there's things we have in common after all.
I'm definitely glad that they chose to go with letting us pick our pronouns for our Sims and hoping that the chosen pronouns carry through to the pop up notifications. However, I do agree with others that I do not like having our Sims' pronouns listed beside their names and wish they were under the gender settings drop down menu instead.
It's for lack of a better term, "strange" to me to have every Sim introduce themselves with their pronouns. I get that everyone has them, but not everyone introduces themselves to people using their pronouns. I know I don't.
I have told people my name before, of course. But never in my life have I said "My name is Chanel and my pronouns are she/her" the way it was shown in CAS during the livestream. And I would assume most of the population is the same way, instead relying on gender representation (which may or may not match a person's biological sex) for them to figure you out gender identity. Even the few transgender folk (1-2) I have met use names and gender expression to show what gender they are, as opposed to pronouns. So (and I could be wrong) I feel the introduction using pronouns really only applies to those who use non-binary or neo-pronouns whereas the majority rely on gender expression and name. Twitter bios I don't think are a good indicator of this, as a lot of people (myself included) only have them listed out of solidarity, and I've actually thought of taking them out of my bio anyway.
While I don't have a problem with Sims' pronouns being displayed next to their name, I feel this is something that should be optional for those of us who rely on physical presentation.
And I also agree with @LiELF about still having a sexual identity, biological sense, and sexual preference in game as well. Trying to keep this as PG as possible, I would be attracted to both a person's sex and gender presentation, as I prefer both male parts and male presentation and do not think I would personally be attracted to a male presenting person who has female parts. Although I can't say for sure as I've never been in such a situation
I just want the implementation to make sense for a game that we play by ourselves. Once player's pick the pronouns in CAS or pick the pronouns during a life stage in live mode. I don't think it should be above the head. The sims could just know through the many introductions. Then we'd read the differences in the notifications. People want an attraction system. The attraction system would be a good way to get Sims to congregate on certain community lots. For gay nightclubs we currently have to use mods. There's no way to make straight nightclubs. I don't know if it's the game or a mod but I'll have Sims kiss on random Sims. I think it might be the N.A.P. in ECO Lifestyle now that I think about it.
Pronouns are just a label you apply to yourself, which is fine and all. What I would hope is that we can choose gender preference as well. Currently, all my Sims are bi and go kissing on random sims and more often same sex, including father and son kissing on one another. I'm guessing whatever pronoun a Sim has will not change preference and they will all remain bi.
Pronouns are just a label you apply to yourself, which is fine and all. What I would hope is that we can choose gender preference as well. Currently, all my Sims are bi and go kissing on random sims and more often same sex, including father and son kissing on one another. I'm guessing whatever pronoun a Sim has will not change preference and they will all remain bi.
All mine act the same as well, and no I don't think pronouns will change behaviors unless they also give us an update that includes gender preferences.
I just want the implementation to make sense for a game that we play by ourselves. Once player's pick the pronouns in CAS or pick the pronouns during a life stage in live mode. I don't think it should be above the head. The sims could just know through the many introductions. Then we'd read the differences in the notifications. People want an attraction system. The attraction system would be a good way to get Sims to congregate on certain community lots. For gay nightclubs we currently have to use mods. There's no way to make straight nightclubs. I don't know if it's the game or a mod but I'll have Sims kiss on random Sims. I think it might be the N.A.P. in ECO Lifestyle now that I think about it.
Yeah, I'd like pronouns to show up on the relationship panel, like traits and career, instead of above their head. It would be good to select a sims's sexuality along with their preferences in a chemistry sistem, that you can select in cas like the likes and dislikes. For gameplay I'd love a Get To Work refresh with the addiction to get plastic surgery and gender reassignment surgery and maybe hormons to transition
Pronouns are just a label you apply to yourself, which is fine and all. What I would hope is that we can choose gender preference as well. Currently, all my Sims are bi and go kissing on random sims and more often same sex, including father and son kissing on one another. I'm guessing whatever pronoun a Sim has will not change preference and they will all remain bi.
father and son? uh. my friend are you sure that's what you meant?
Anyway, I'm happy about this update. Hopefully they won't show the pronouns on top of the sims head and rather in the relationship panel/sentiment panel/something like that, but that's not something they showed so I'm not worried about it at all. I'm working on making a save file for myself so I'm appreciative of any new customization especially one so many people were wishing for.
Pronouns are just a label you apply to yourself, which is fine and all. What I would hope is that we can choose gender preference as well. Currently, all my Sims are bi and go kissing on random sims and more often same sex, including father and son kissing on one another. I'm guessing whatever pronoun a Sim has will not change preference and they will all remain bi.
father and son? uh. my friend are you sure that's what you meant?
Simcest, can be weird but it's definitely a thing in the community, you can literally have Johnny Zest impregnate his own mother in the basegame, assuming that Nancy is his mother, Johnny backstory states that he's a Landgraab despite him not being in the Landgraab genealogy, I don't get how disowning someone somehow magically removes them from your entire family tree, seemed like an oversight on the Devs part.
Yikes. Well, what did they say when the game first came out...more interesting stories? Not one I'd play but I guess when you're the Watcher you make your own rules.
Also, this looks like it may still continue to lead into the erasure of the sexes altogether, which I actually want my game to acknowledge. I still want one day to be able to set an all-female club to only flirt with males or females and vise versa. I want single Sims to one day have a sexual preference, like actual sex of the Sim, you know, like real people do. I just hope this doesn't start to blur the gender/sex lines completely for game recognition because that takes a whole lot of personal gameplay purpose and sexual identity away for a lot of players and what good would it do to sacrifice one identity for another? Because one is trending? You can't wedge in one identity by erasing another and then pat yourself on the back and call yourself "inclusive". I may be jumping the gun with my doubt, but I just hope they've been really thinking this through before going in and making a bunch of core changes.
"Actual" sex and and the sexual preferences of "real people" are a lot less binary than you seem to be implying they are.
That depends on who you talk to. Keep in mind that there are many people who are afraid to speak their true feelings out of fear of being persecuted by the angry mobs or accused of being "transphobic". There's a lot of aggression being thrown around (on all sides), especially on social media, and it can really intimidate and put fear into people. They're certainly not going to advertise feeling that way if they're going to be attacked for it.
This is getting off-topic, but I can guarantee you that the fear and aggression trans people experience on a daily basis just for existing, are far greater than that experienced by cis people for their language choices.
First, please don't turn this into a contest of "who is the biggest victim" because it's insulting and diminishing to all who suffer and I'm pretty sure that's not where you're trying to go with this. I do know that trans people are suffering, just as certain races suffer, just as certain sexualities suffer, just as women continue to suffer and it goes on and on depending on what parts of the world, what societies, what regions, what neighborhoods...we're talking about. None of it is "good" or "acceptable" suffering.
Second, you seem to spit out "cis" like it doesn't include gay, lesbian, bi, etc., race, class, disability, culture, victims of violence, mentally ill, detransitioners and anyone else "not trans" who also knows suffering, so maybe you could rethink your own stereotypes?
Third, my statement was about a lot more than "language choices", it was about other identity types. Gender is not the one and only aspect of a human identity and I was specifically addressing sexual identity. Identity is different for every single person and different people prioritize different aspects. None are more important than others because it's all personal and all important. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I can accept that, if you can.
Finally, in case you are misunderstanding and jumping into fight mode by habit, my entire argument is not about trying to block pronouns from coming into the game. I think having the option is great and necessary for those who feel strongly about having it, and I like that it's completely flexible as well as optional to view so everyone can have their own way in their own games, as it should be. My concern has always been about the mechanics, about being able to also have sexual identity and biological sex because they are still real things to real people, just as pronouns and trans identity are real things to real people. They coexist. Inclusivity is inclusivity and with a lot of the dialogue becoming gender neutral, my concern has been that it will prevent the ability for Sims to choose a preferred sex (or gender) down the line. I voice my concerns in hopes that developers will take it into consideration and we can all one day customize the game as we want it.
Just say you don't care about trans people and their struggles and go off
Because I want Sims to have sexuality in a video game? But feel free to come to whatever conclusion you like, you're apparently going to do it anyway. I'm not defined by your errant perspective.
No, it's not because you want sexuality in the game, but because you literally belittled a trans person by saying "this is not a race at who's the victim, cis people suffer too!" when they were stating what they have to suffer just for being trans (something that you as a cis person never had to face), also I don't think some pronouns will erase sexuality in the game
When have I ever said that I identify as Cis?
I don't think a trans person would complain so much about pronouns in a fricking video game
Anyway, yaaay! I think the custom pronouns are super cool. That way I can use neopronouns for my sims and even something totally random! I am very glad with the way pronouns are coming. It is much more than I expected.
So I don't usually do this, but for the purpose of attempting to bring about some understanding of my perspective and identity for some of the people in this thread, I'm going to explain a little bit about myself. I don't even know if any of this is going to make sense to others, but I will do my best.
I'd like to start off by saying that I don't like labels. I have never liked labeling myself in any way because I find labels to be extremely limiting and they do, in their own way, promote bias and stereotypes. This means that, in some ways, I have never felt like I completely "belonged" anywhere. I have brushed with many groups and have been part of them, but sometimes, in almost contradictory ways, I've also not belonged. This is all internal, of course, whereas others from those groups might perceive things differently, but I don't usually feel a need to change that. I am who I am and I live how I live and I prefer to live completely free of expectations and molds so that I am also free to change and evolve as I need to. Doing this gives me balance and also allows for me to keep my mind open to alternate perspectives of all types.
I'm going to use a mix of modern terms and what some might see as "outdated" perspectives and tropes for an attempt at a clearer depiction of my background.
I have, all my life, been gender fluid. Born female, with female pronouns, yet never being constricted by anyone in my family to exhibit only female stereotypical aspects. My natural state is somewhere in between male and female gender expression with some days being ultra feminine (not common) and many days being what some would perceive as "boyish". In the time of my childhood, we didn't have pronoun changes unless a person was transexual. My household was a lower income matriarchy (me, my mother and my grandmother) living in a patriarchal world but in our home, we were completely free from the stereotypes of male dominance in our society. We made our own rules and allowed ourselves to be whoever we wanted to be. My own mother said to me (more than once) starting from when I was a very young age, how fortunate she felt that, in me, she had both a son and a daughter. This was completely natural for us, though very unusual for the common world, and understood by us both, if not "unconventional" to standard perceptions.
As a small child I didn't like to play with baby dolls or play "mother". I loved my dinosaur collection. I loved stuffed animals and action figures and creative toys. My first ever hero was Disney's Robin Hood. I wanted to marry him but I also wanted to be him so I got a playset bow and arrow one Christmas. I used to play outside a lot but I could never get into playing the games that little girls were playing, like "house" or "tea party" and instead, ran off to play "monster" or "explorer" with the boys. My first best friend was a boy, and we got made fun of a lot by other kids for connecting outside of our "gender" or default sex groups. As I grew older, I continued to be this way. I was outdoorsy, I loved to climb trees, collect glass animals and play with barbies (but in an independent, feminist way), make them clothes (my mother was a natural sewer and taught me) and I loved to roughhouse. I was loud at home, yet shy in public. My favorite color was black since at least first grade (still is), and when I got my first bike, it only came in "boys" style and color (black) or "girls" style and color (pink). I got the "boys" and called it my "motorcycle" and rode it everywhere. I even inadvertently influenced two other girls to get the same bike because they admired mine. And there was a time when I had to prove myself in order to join a group of boys (my cousin and his friends) that I could ride just as well as they could. It was one of my shining, triumphant moments when, with my female friend as an additional passenger on the back of my bike, we raced through our downtown, chasing the boys who were trying to ditch us (and they failed) only to have them eventually stop at a meeting place and grudgingly, yet respectfully, admit that I was a better rider than they thought. I even saw a little admiration in their eyes. After all, I did it with a passenger and they were all without. After that, I was often invited to come along trail riding and to wheelie and skidding contests. I conquered.
When I was twelve, I expanded my wardrobe to include boys' styles. I even "disguised" myself as a boy sometimes when my best friend (female) and I wanted to go wandering around at night... to deter predators from approaching us, as it was alarmingly common in that time before everyone carried a cell phone. In my teens I had more female friends as well as male. We were outcasts and bullied. We didn't push gender tropes on each other, it didn't even occur to us, we just accepted whatever flowed naturally and we didn't try to label it. We found others like us and welcomed them into our circle and leaned on each other and made each other laugh. We also accepted the friendships of people who weren't "weird like us". Friendship was friendship. It meant accepting someone for who they were and reserving judgement for bad decisions and actions. Many of those friends evolved to become part of the LGBT+ community.
There's more, so much more I could tell about struggles, hardships, challenges, changes and battles. I've grown so much since then but much of my core self is still the same. Sometimes there's a small shift or a temporary urge to alter how I express myself; feminine phases of wearing a lot of makeup and pretty sweaters and shopping with my bestie (yes, the same one who was a passenger on my bike that day), dramatic phases of returning to my "home base" of all-black, my neutral and balanced self, letting my creative energies flow in other ways, wrapped in introversion and introspection and philosophical existentialism; and then back again to a return to the "Tomboy" I've always been, the boyish self in jeans and Timberlands and button down shirts, bandana over my hair, low-maintenance appearance, dressing for comfort and adventure and challenge and wherever the day may take me.
I am not defined by a pronoun. I choose she/her in reference to my sex only, and in that identity of my sex, a recognition and homage to the women in my family who struggled and suffered and fought through unimaginable hardships for agency and equality and freedom to be whoever they wanted to be and who also granted me the freedom to be who I truly am without oppression or gender expectations. I am woman, but that is not all that I am, and I will never let someone else define me by a label of their choosing.
Also, this looks like it may still continue to lead into the erasure of the sexes altogether, which I actually want my game to acknowledge. I still want one day to be able to set an all-female club to only flirt with males or females and vise versa. I want single Sims to one day have a sexual preference, like actual sex of the Sim, you know, like real people do. I just hope this doesn't start to blur the gender/sex lines completely for game recognition because that takes a whole lot of personal gameplay purpose and sexual identity away for a lot of players and what good would it do to sacrifice one identity for another? Because one is trending? You can't wedge in one identity by erasing another and then pat yourself on the back and call yourself "inclusive". I may be jumping the gun with my doubt, but I just hope they've been really thinking this through before going in and making a bunch of core changes.
"Actual" sex and and the sexual preferences of "real people" are a lot less binary than you seem to be implying they are.
That depends on who you talk to. Keep in mind that there are many people who are afraid to speak their true feelings out of fear of being persecuted by the angry mobs or accused of being "transphobic". There's a lot of aggression being thrown around (on all sides), especially on social media, and it can really intimidate and put fear into people. They're certainly not going to advertise feeling that way if they're going to be attacked for it.
This is getting off-topic, but I can guarantee you that the fear and aggression trans people experience on a daily basis just for existing, are far greater than that experienced by cis people for their language choices.
First, please don't turn this into a contest of "who is the biggest victim" because it's insulting and diminishing to all who suffer and I'm pretty sure that's not where you're trying to go with this. I do know that trans people are suffering, just as certain races suffer, just as certain sexualities suffer, just as women continue to suffer and it goes on and on depending on what parts of the world, what societies, what regions, what neighborhoods...we're talking about. None of it is "good" or "acceptable" suffering.
Second, you seem to spit out "cis" like it doesn't include gay, lesbian, bi, etc., race, class, disability, culture, victims of violence, mentally ill, detransitioners and anyone else "not trans" who also knows suffering, so maybe you could rethink your own stereotypes?
Third, my statement was about a lot more than "language choices", it was about other identity types. Gender is not the one and only aspect of a human identity and I was specifically addressing sexual identity. Identity is different for every single person and different people prioritize different aspects. None are more important than others because it's all personal and all important. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I can accept that, if you can.
Finally, in case you are misunderstanding and jumping into fight mode by habit, my entire argument is not about trying to block pronouns from coming into the game. I think having the option is great and necessary for those who feel strongly about having it, and I like that it's completely flexible as well as optional to view so everyone can have their own way in their own games, as it should be. My concern has always been about the mechanics, about being able to also have sexual identity and biological sex because they are still real things to real people, just as pronouns and trans identity are real things to real people. They coexist. Inclusivity is inclusivity and with a lot of the dialogue becoming gender neutral, my concern has been that it will prevent the ability for Sims to choose a preferred sex (or gender) down the line. I voice my concerns in hopes that developers will take it into consideration and we can all one day customize the game as we want it.
Just say you don't care about trans people and their struggles and go off
Because I want Sims to have sexuality in a video game? But feel free to come to whatever conclusion you like, you're apparently going to do it anyway. I'm not defined by your errant perspective.
No, it's not because you want sexuality in the game, but because you literally belittled a trans person by saying "this is not a race at who's the victim, cis people suffer too!" when they were stating what they have to suffer just for being trans (something that you as a cis person never had to face), also I don't think some pronouns will erase sexuality in the game
When have I ever said that I identify as Cis?
I don't think a trans person would complain so much about pronouns in a fricking video game
Anyway, yaaay! I think the custom pronouns are super cool. That way I can use neopronouns for my sims and even something totally random! I am very glad with the way pronouns are coming. It is much more than I expected.
So I don't usually do this, but for the purpose of attempting to bring about some understanding of my perspective and identity for some of the people in this thread, I'm going to explain a little bit about myself. I don't even know if any of this is going to make sense to others, but I will do my best.
I'd like to start off by saying that I don't like labels. I have never liked labeling myself in any way because I find labels to be extremely limiting and they do, in their own way, promote bias and stereotypes. This means that, in some ways, I have never felt like I completely "belonged" anywhere. I have brushed with many groups and have been part of them, but sometimes, in almost contradictory ways, I've also not belonged. This is all internal, of course, whereas others from those groups might perceive things differently, but I don't usually feel a need to change that. I am who I am and I live how I live and I prefer to live completely free of expectations and molds so that I am also free to change and evolve as I need to. Doing this gives me balance and also allows for me to keep my mind open to alternate perspectives of all types.
I'm going to use a mix of modern terms and what some might see as "outdated" perspectives and tropes for an attempt at a clearer depiction of my background.
I have, all my life, been gender fluid. Born female, with female pronouns, yet never being constricted by anyone in my family to exhibit only female stereotypical aspects. My natural state is somewhere in between male and female gender expression with some days being ultra feminine (not common) and many days being what some would perceive as "boyish". In the time of my childhood, we didn't have pronoun changes unless a person was transexual. My household was a lower income matriarchy (me, my mother and my grandmother) living in a patriarchal world but in our home, we were completely free from the stereotypes of male dominance in our society. We made our own rules and allowed ourselves to be whoever we wanted to be. My own mother said to me (more than once) starting from when I was a very young age, how fortunate she felt that, in me, she had both a son and a daughter. This was completely natural for us, though very unusual for the common world, and understood by us both, if not "unconventional" to standard perceptions.
As a small child I didn't like to play with baby dolls or play "mother". I loved my dinosaur collection. I loved stuffed animals and action figures and creative toys. My first ever hero was Disney's Robin Hood. I wanted to marry him but I also wanted to be him so I got a playset bow and arrow one Christmas. I used to play outside a lot but I could never get into playing the games that little girls were playing, like "house" or "tea party" and instead, ran off to play "monster" or "explorer" with the boys. My first best friend was a boy, and we got made fun of a lot by other kids for connecting outside of our "gender" or default sex groups. As I grew older, I continued to be this way. I was outdoorsy, I loved to climb trees, collect glass animals and play with barbies (but in an independent, feminist way), make them clothes (my mother was a natural sewer and taught me) and I loved to roughhouse. I was loud at home, yet shy in public. My favorite color was black since at least first grade (still is), and when I got my first bike, it only came in "boys" style and color (black) or "girls" style and color (pink). I got the "boys" and called it my "motorcycle" and rode it everywhere. I even inadvertently influenced two other girls to get the same bike because they admired mine. And there was a time when I had to prove myself in order to join a group of boys (my cousin and his friends) that I could ride just as well as they could. It was one of my shining, triumphant moments when, with my female friend as an additional passenger on the back of my bike, we raced through our downtown, chasing the boys who were trying to ditch us (and they failed) only to have them eventually stop at a meeting place and grudgingly, yet respectfully, admit that I was a better rider than they thought. I even saw a little admiration in their eyes. After all, I did it with a passenger and they were all without. After that, I was often invited to come along trail riding and to wheelie and skidding contests. I conquered.
When I was twelve, I expanded my wardrobe to include boys' styles. I even "disguised" myself as a boy sometimes when my best friend (female) and I wanted to go wandering around at night... to deter predators from approaching us, as it was alarmingly common in that time before everyone carried a cell phone. In my teens I had more female friends as well as male. We were outcasts and bullied. We didn't push gender tropes on each other, it didn't even occur to us, we just accepted whatever flowed naturally and we didn't try to label it. We found others like us and welcomed them into our circle and leaned on each other and made each other laugh. We also accepted the friendships of people who weren't "weird like us". Friendship was friendship. It meant accepting someone for who they were and reserving judgement for bad decisions and actions. Many of those friends evolved to become part of the LGBT+ community.
There's more, so much more I could tell about struggles, hardships, challenges, changes and battles. I've grown so much since then but much of my core self is still the same. Sometimes there's a small shift or a temporary urge to alter how I express myself; feminine phases of wearing a lot of makeup and pretty sweaters and shopping with my bestie (yes, the same one who was a passenger on my bike that day), dramatic phases of returning to my "home base" of all-black, my neutral and balanced self, letting my creative energies flow in other ways, wrapped in introversion and introspection and philosophical existentialism; and then back again to a return to the "Tomboy" I've always been, the boyish self in jeans and Timberlands and button down shirts, bandana over my hair, low-maintenance appearance, dressing for comfort and adventure and challenge and wherever the day may take me.
I am not defined by a pronoun. I choose she/her in reference to my sex only, and in that identity of my sex, a recognition and homage to the women in my family who struggled and suffered and fought through unimaginable hardships for agency and equality and freedom to be whoever they wanted to be and who also granted me the freedom to be who I truly am without oppression or gender expectations. I am woman, but that is not all that I am, and I will never let someone else define me by a label of their choosing.
I for one completely understand the feeling of never finding a place where you belong, hell I'm still trying to find a place where I belong, honestly you're just like me, just another puzzle piece that doesn't fit into the puzzle, I used to use that puzzle metaphor quite a bit when I was younger, it's hard trying to fit in when you don't really have anyone else who could relate to you and besides us outcasts must stick together.
@LiELF thank you for sharing.
I just want to say that I admire the way you always express yourself so eloquently and respectfully in discussions with topics of this nature. The unique insights you provide leave me time and again with a sense of reassurance; I can almost hear my scrambled braincells shift back into some kind of logical position. You make sense. To me anyway.
I don’t like labels for the same reasons that you stated, however, If they give another person a sense of security or feeling that they “belong”, good for them.
Of course the story that you shared is a more personal one but resonates with me on various levels. A detail that particularly moved me is -interestingly enough- the one about Disney Robin Hood. He was my hero too!! In fact, he still is! I can’t say I ever wanted to marry him haha, but I definitely wanted to be him!
Back when I was a kid, my mother ( a dressmaker! ) made me a green Robin Hoodie onto which my dad painted Robin Hood’s foxy portrait. While all the cool kids in their Optimus Prime T-shirts went out to scour the streets on their skate boards, I got myself lost in the woods (or some random neighborhood ) on my bike, proudly wearing my green Robin Hoodie - hood pulled over my head- daydreaming about all the heroic deeds I would perform some day in the future. (Sorry that day has yet to arrive 😆).
Sure, Transformers are cool, but Robin Hood is something else. Most of my childhood involved me pedaling around on my bike with my friend , the boy from next door who’s father didn’t allow us to play together due to their religion, but we met up in secret anyway. We were the “two weirdos” who always got lost in the woods and around streams and got chased by gangs of angry wild kids with wooden sticks who lived nearby.
My childhood also involved me getting pretty good at drawing foxes because I absolutely sucked at archery and dressmaking. Especially the latter. 😅
Pronouns are just a label you apply to yourself, which is fine and all. What I would hope is that we can choose gender preference as well. Currently, all my Sims are bi and go kissing on random sims and more often same sex, including father and son kissing on one another. I'm guessing whatever pronoun a Sim has will not change preference and they will all remain bi.
father and son? uh. my friend are you sure that's what you meant?
Anyway, I'm happy about this update. Hopefully they won't show the pronouns on top of the sims head and rather in the relationship panel/sentiment panel/something like that, but that's not something they showed so I'm not worried about it at all. I'm working on making a save file for myself so I'm appreciative of any new customization especially one so many people were wishing for.
Yes father and son smooched out of the blue thanks to the Free Love Neighborhood Action Plan. This has happened more than once. I haven't seen any male female incestuous kissing.
Also, this looks like it may still continue to lead into the erasure of the sexes altogether, which I actually want my game to acknowledge. I still want one day to be able to set an all-female club to only flirt with males or females and vise versa. I want single Sims to one day have a sexual preference, like actual sex of the Sim, you know, like real people do. I just hope this doesn't start to blur the gender/sex lines completely for game recognition because that takes a whole lot of personal gameplay purpose and sexual identity away for a lot of players and what good would it do to sacrifice one identity for another? Because one is trending? You can't wedge in one identity by erasing another and then pat yourself on the back and call yourself "inclusive". I may be jumping the gun with my doubt, but I just hope they've been really thinking this through before going in and making a bunch of core changes.
"Actual" sex and and the sexual preferences of "real people" are a lot less binary than you seem to be implying they are.
That depends on who you talk to. Keep in mind that there are many people who are afraid to speak their true feelings out of fear of being persecuted by the angry mobs or accused of being "transphobic". There's a lot of aggression being thrown around (on all sides), especially on social media, and it can really intimidate and put fear into people. They're certainly not going to advertise feeling that way if they're going to be attacked for it.
This is getting off-topic, but I can guarantee you that the fear and aggression trans people experience on a daily basis just for existing, are far greater than that experienced by cis people for their language choices.
First, please don't turn this into a contest of "who is the biggest victim" because it's insulting and diminishing to all who suffer and I'm pretty sure that's not where you're trying to go with this. I do know that trans people are suffering, just as certain races suffer, just as certain sexualities suffer, just as women continue to suffer and it goes on and on depending on what parts of the world, what societies, what regions, what neighborhoods...we're talking about. None of it is "good" or "acceptable" suffering.
Second, you seem to spit out "cis" like it doesn't include gay, lesbian, bi, etc., race, class, disability, culture, victims of violence, mentally ill, detransitioners and anyone else "not trans" who also knows suffering, so maybe you could rethink your own stereotypes?
Third, my statement was about a lot more than "language choices", it was about other identity types. Gender is not the one and only aspect of a human identity and I was specifically addressing sexual identity. Identity is different for every single person and different people prioritize different aspects. None are more important than others because it's all personal and all important. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I can accept that, if you can.
Finally, in case you are misunderstanding and jumping into fight mode by habit, my entire argument is not about trying to block pronouns from coming into the game. I think having the option is great and necessary for those who feel strongly about having it, and I like that it's completely flexible as well as optional to view so everyone can have their own way in their own games, as it should be. My concern has always been about the mechanics, about being able to also have sexual identity and biological sex because they are still real things to real people, just as pronouns and trans identity are real things to real people. They coexist. Inclusivity is inclusivity and with a lot of the dialogue becoming gender neutral, my concern has been that it will prevent the ability for Sims to choose a preferred sex (or gender) down the line. I voice my concerns in hopes that developers will take it into consideration and we can all one day customize the game as we want it.
Just say you don't care about trans people and their struggles and go off
Because I want Sims to have sexuality in a video game? But feel free to come to whatever conclusion you like, you're apparently going to do it anyway. I'm not defined by your errant perspective.
No, it's not because you want sexuality in the game, but because you literally belittled a trans person by saying "this is not a race at who's the victim, cis people suffer too!" when they were stating what they have to suffer just for being trans (something that you as a cis person never had to face), also I don't think some pronouns will erase sexuality in the game
When have I ever said that I identify as Cis?
I don't think a trans person would complain so much about pronouns in a fricking video game
Anyway, yaaay! I think the custom pronouns are super cool. That way I can use neopronouns for my sims and even something totally random! I am very glad with the way pronouns are coming. It is much more than I expected.
So I don't usually do this, but for the purpose of attempting to bring about some understanding of my perspective and identity for some of the people in this thread, I'm going to explain a little bit about myself. I don't even know if any of this is going to make sense to others, but I will do my best.
I'd like to start off by saying that I don't like labels. I have never liked labeling myself in any way because I find labels to be extremely limiting and they do, in their own way, promote bias and stereotypes. This means that, in some ways, I have never felt like I completely "belonged" anywhere. I have brushed with many groups and have been part of them, but sometimes, in almost contradictory ways, I've also not belonged. This is all internal, of course, whereas others from those groups might perceive things differently, but I don't usually feel a need to change that. I am who I am and I live how I live and I prefer to live completely free of expectations and molds so that I am also free to change and evolve as I need to. Doing this gives me balance and also allows for me to keep my mind open to alternate perspectives of all types.
I'm going to use a mix of modern terms and what some might see as "outdated" perspectives and tropes for an attempt at a clearer depiction of my background.
I have, all my life, been gender fluid. Born female, with female pronouns, yet never being constricted by anyone in my family to exhibit only female stereotypical aspects. My natural state is somewhere in between male and female gender expression with some days being ultra feminine (not common) and many days being what some would perceive as "boyish". In the time of my childhood, we didn't have pronoun changes unless a person was transexual. My household was a lower income matriarchy (me, my mother and my grandmother) living in a patriarchal world but in our home, we were completely free from the stereotypes of male dominance in our society. We made our own rules and allowed ourselves to be whoever we wanted to be. My own mother said to me (more than once) starting from when I was a very young age, how fortunate she felt that, in me, she had both a son and a daughter. This was completely natural for us, though very unusual for the common world, and understood by us both, if not "unconventional" to standard perceptions.
As a small child I didn't like to play with baby dolls or play "mother". I loved my dinosaur collection. I loved stuffed animals and action figures and creative toys. My first ever hero was Disney's Robin Hood. I wanted to marry him but I also wanted to be him so I got a playset bow and arrow one Christmas. I used to play outside a lot but I could never get into playing the games that little girls were playing, like "house" or "tea party" and instead, ran off to play "monster" or "explorer" with the boys. My first best friend was a boy, and we got made fun of a lot by other kids for connecting outside of our "gender" or default sex groups. As I grew older, I continued to be this way. I was outdoorsy, I loved to climb trees, collect glass animals and play with barbies (but in an independent, feminist way), make them clothes (my mother was a natural sewer and taught me) and I loved to roughhouse. I was loud at home, yet shy in public. My favorite color was black since at least first grade (still is), and when I got my first bike, it only came in "boys" style and color (black) or "girls" style and color (pink). I got the "boys" and called it my "motorcycle" and rode it everywhere. I even inadvertently influenced two other girls to get the same bike because they admired mine. And there was a time when I had to prove myself in order to join a group of boys (my cousin and his friends) that I could ride just as well as they could. It was one of my shining, triumphant moments when, with my female friend as an additional passenger on the back of my bike, we raced through our downtown, chasing the boys who were trying to ditch us (and they failed) only to have them eventually stop at a meeting place and grudgingly, yet respectfully, admit that I was a better rider than they thought. I even saw a little admiration in their eyes. After all, I did it with a passenger and they were all without. After that, I was often invited to come along trail riding and to wheelie and skidding contests. I conquered.
When I was twelve, I expanded my wardrobe to include boys' styles. I even "disguised" myself as a boy sometimes when my best friend (female) and I wanted to go wandering around at night... to deter predators from approaching us, as it was alarmingly common in that time before everyone carried a cell phone. In my teens I had more female friends as well as male. We were outcasts and bullied. We didn't push gender tropes on each other, it didn't even occur to us, we just accepted whatever flowed naturally and we didn't try to label it. We found others like us and welcomed them into our circle and leaned on each other and made each other laugh. We also accepted the friendships of people who weren't "weird like us". Friendship was friendship. It meant accepting someone for who they were and reserving judgement for bad decisions and actions. Many of those friends evolved to become part of the LGBT+ community.
There's more, so much more I could tell about struggles, hardships, challenges, changes and battles. I've grown so much since then but much of my core self is still the same. Sometimes there's a small shift or a temporary urge to alter how I express myself; feminine phases of wearing a lot of makeup and pretty sweaters and shopping with my bestie (yes, the same one who was a passenger on my bike that day), dramatic phases of returning to my "home base" of all-black, my neutral and balanced self, letting my creative energies flow in other ways, wrapped in introversion and introspection and philosophical existentialism; and then back again to a return to the "Tomboy" I've always been, the boyish self in jeans and Timberlands and button down shirts, bandana over my hair, low-maintenance appearance, dressing for comfort and adventure and challenge and wherever the day may take me.
I am not defined by a pronoun. I choose she/her in reference to my sex only, and in that identity of my sex, a recognition and homage to the women in my family who struggled and suffered and fought through unimaginable hardships for agency and equality and freedom to be whoever they wanted to be and who also granted me the freedom to be who I truly am without oppression or gender expectations. I am woman, but that is not all that I am, and I will never let someone else define me by a label of their choosing.
When I was child I was labelled as a "black sheep" by my strict stepfather and other figures of authority. I didn't care for that label. Not the black part. Being called a sheep was insulting. So I kept Black and added Fox. Since then I am a white dude who labels himself as a black fox. So I get pronouns. It's about self ownership.
@temporalgod I've come to discover that it's much more common than we think, to feel like an outsider. We don't have access to the thoughts and feelings of others so what we may perceive as confidence and connection could sometimes be false bravado and a hidden anxiety for acceptance. People often project an illusion of how they want others to see them, especially on the internet, and I think it causes a lot of misconception and warping of reality. But it's okay to not have a social group that you feel a kinship with, there are still other individual people out there who pave their own paths and who feel very much the same as you do. Whenever the road starts to feel lonely, it helps to shift perspective to look for the things you have in common with others. For example, we're all here on these Sims forums because we share a passion for the same game. That's a good start.
@CAPTAIN_NXR7 Thank you so much for your kind words. That's very humbling coming from such an impressive story weaver. But, of course, you are a member of Robin's merry outlaw band in the hidden forest. I thought I knew you from somewhere. I'm sure you could get better at archery with some practice (and dressmaking too, if you really desired to), so never fear! I finally took my first professional archery class a few years ago before the pandemic started and I was flabbergasted to discover that I'm a very good shot with the right sized bow. I really expected to be horrible for some reason but I actually got a bullseye on my third arrow. Now that was a shining moment. I took pictures, lol. Of course, now I'm thinking it might be worth taking up some fencing and rapier dueling to see how I do with that. Hmmm... Think we can get some of those activities in the game?
@ThunderNeb Self ownership is quite empowering. It's very good that you were able to take someone else's label of you and make it your own. And interesting that you chose Black Fox.
Well, what a happy coincidence! Here we have a merry band of outcast foxes. I believe a band of foxes is actually called a "Skulk". Long live the Skulk!
Also, this looks like it may still continue to lead into the erasure of the sexes altogether, which I actually want my game to acknowledge. I still want one day to be able to set an all-female club to only flirt with males or females and vise versa. I want single Sims to one day have a sexual preference, like actual sex of the Sim, you know, like real people do. I just hope this doesn't start to blur the gender/sex lines completely for game recognition because that takes a whole lot of personal gameplay purpose and sexual identity away for a lot of players and what good would it do to sacrifice one identity for another? Because one is trending? You can't wedge in one identity by erasing another and then pat yourself on the back and call yourself "inclusive". I may be jumping the gun with my doubt, but I just hope they've been really thinking this through before going in and making a bunch of core changes.
"Actual" sex and and the sexual preferences of "real people" are a lot less binary than you seem to be implying they are.
That depends on who you talk to. Keep in mind that there are many people who are afraid to speak their true feelings out of fear of being persecuted by the angry mobs or accused of being "transphobic". There's a lot of aggression being thrown around (on all sides), especially on social media, and it can really intimidate and put fear into people. They're certainly not going to advertise feeling that way if they're going to be attacked for it.
This is getting off-topic, but I can guarantee you that the fear and aggression trans people experience on a daily basis just for existing, are far greater than that experienced by cis people for their language choices.
First, please don't turn this into a contest of "who is the biggest victim" because it's insulting and diminishing to all who suffer and I'm pretty sure that's not where you're trying to go with this. I do know that trans people are suffering, just as certain races suffer, just as certain sexualities suffer, just as women continue to suffer and it goes on and on depending on what parts of the world, what societies, what regions, what neighborhoods...we're talking about. None of it is "good" or "acceptable" suffering.
Second, you seem to spit out "cis" like it doesn't include gay, lesbian, bi, etc., race, class, disability, culture, victims of violence, mentally ill, detransitioners and anyone else "not trans" who also knows suffering, so maybe you could rethink your own stereotypes?
Third, my statement was about a lot more than "language choices", it was about other identity types. Gender is not the one and only aspect of a human identity and I was specifically addressing sexual identity. Identity is different for every single person and different people prioritize different aspects. None are more important than others because it's all personal and all important. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I can accept that, if you can.
Finally, in case you are misunderstanding and jumping into fight mode by habit, my entire argument is not about trying to block pronouns from coming into the game. I think having the option is great and necessary for those who feel strongly about having it, and I like that it's completely flexible as well as optional to view so everyone can have their own way in their own games, as it should be. My concern has always been about the mechanics, about being able to also have sexual identity and biological sex because they are still real things to real people, just as pronouns and trans identity are real things to real people. They coexist. Inclusivity is inclusivity and with a lot of the dialogue becoming gender neutral, my concern has been that it will prevent the ability for Sims to choose a preferred sex (or gender) down the line. I voice my concerns in hopes that developers will take it into consideration and we can all one day customize the game as we want it.
Just say you don't care about trans people and their struggles and go off
Because I want Sims to have sexuality in a video game? But feel free to come to whatever conclusion you like, you're apparently going to do it anyway. I'm not defined by your errant perspective.
No, it's not because you want sexuality in the game, but because you literally belittled a trans person by saying "this is not a race at who's the victim, cis people suffer too!" when they were stating what they have to suffer just for being trans (something that you as a cis person never had to face), also I don't think some pronouns will erase sexuality in the game
When have I ever said that I identify as Cis?
I don't think a trans person would complain so much about pronouns in a fricking video game
Anyway, yaaay! I think the custom pronouns are super cool. That way I can use neopronouns for my sims and even something totally random! I am very glad with the way pronouns are coming. It is much more than I expected.
So I don't usually do this, but for the purpose of attempting to bring about some understanding of my perspective and identity for some of the people in this thread, I'm going to explain a little bit about myself. I don't even know if any of this is going to make sense to others, but I will do my best.
I'd like to start off by saying that I don't like labels. I have never liked labeling myself in any way because I find labels to be extremely limiting and they do, in their own way, promote bias and stereotypes. This means that, in some ways, I have never felt like I completely "belonged" anywhere. I have brushed with many groups and have been part of them, but sometimes, in almost contradictory ways, I've also not belonged. This is all internal, of course, whereas others from those groups might perceive things differently, but I don't usually feel a need to change that. I am who I am and I live how I live and I prefer to live completely free of expectations and molds so that I am also free to change and evolve as I need to. Doing this gives me balance and also allows for me to keep my mind open to alternate perspectives of all types.
I'm going to use a mix of modern terms and what some might see as "outdated" perspectives and tropes for an attempt at a clearer depiction of my background.
I have, all my life, been gender fluid. Born female, with female pronouns, yet never being constricted by anyone in my family to exhibit only female stereotypical aspects. My natural state is somewhere in between male and female gender expression with some days being ultra feminine (not common) and many days being what some would perceive as "boyish". In the time of my childhood, we didn't have pronoun changes unless a person was transexual. My household was a lower income matriarchy (me, my mother and my grandmother) living in a patriarchal world but in our home, we were completely free from the stereotypes of male dominance in our society. We made our own rules and allowed ourselves to be whoever we wanted to be. My own mother said to me (more than once) starting from when I was a very young age, how fortunate she felt that, in me, she had both a son and a daughter. This was completely natural for us, though very unusual for the common world, and understood by us both, if not "unconventional" to standard perceptions.
As a small child I didn't like to play with baby dolls or play "mother". I loved my dinosaur collection. I loved stuffed animals and action figures and creative toys. My first ever hero was Disney's Robin Hood. I wanted to marry him but I also wanted to be him so I got a playset bow and arrow one Christmas. I used to play outside a lot but I could never get into playing the games that little girls were playing, like "house" or "tea party" and instead, ran off to play "monster" or "explorer" with the boys. My first best friend was a boy, and we got made fun of a lot by other kids for connecting outside of our "gender" or default sex groups. As I grew older, I continued to be this way. I was outdoorsy, I loved to climb trees, collect glass animals and play with barbies (but in an independent, feminist way), make them clothes (my mother was a natural sewer and taught me) and I loved to roughhouse. I was loud at home, yet shy in public. My favorite color was black since at least first grade (still is), and when I got my first bike, it only came in "boys" style and color (black) or "girls" style and color (pink). I got the "boys" and called it my "motorcycle" and rode it everywhere. I even inadvertently influenced two other girls to get the same bike because they admired mine. And there was a time when I had to prove myself in order to join a group of boys (my cousin and his friends) that I could ride just as well as they could. It was one of my shining, triumphant moments when, with my female friend as an additional passenger on the back of my bike, we raced through our downtown, chasing the boys who were trying to ditch us (and they failed) only to have them eventually stop at a meeting place and grudgingly, yet respectfully, admit that I was a better rider than they thought. I even saw a little admiration in their eyes. After all, I did it with a passenger and they were all without. After that, I was often invited to come along trail riding and to wheelie and skidding contests. I conquered.
When I was twelve, I expanded my wardrobe to include boys' styles. I even "disguised" myself as a boy sometimes when my best friend (female) and I wanted to go wandering around at night... to deter predators from approaching us, as it was alarmingly common in that time before everyone carried a cell phone. In my teens I had more female friends as well as male. We were outcasts and bullied. We didn't push gender tropes on each other, it didn't even occur to us, we just accepted whatever flowed naturally and we didn't try to label it. We found others like us and welcomed them into our circle and leaned on each other and made each other laugh. We also accepted the friendships of people who weren't "weird like us". Friendship was friendship. It meant accepting someone for who they were and reserving judgement for bad decisions and actions. Many of those friends evolved to become part of the LGBT+ community.
There's more, so much more I could tell about struggles, hardships, challenges, changes and battles. I've grown so much since then but much of my core self is still the same. Sometimes there's a small shift or a temporary urge to alter how I express myself; feminine phases of wearing a lot of makeup and pretty sweaters and shopping with my bestie (yes, the same one who was a passenger on my bike that day), dramatic phases of returning to my "home base" of all-black, my neutral and balanced self, letting my creative energies flow in other ways, wrapped in introversion and introspection and philosophical existentialism; and then back again to a return to the "Tomboy" I've always been, the boyish self in jeans and Timberlands and button down shirts, bandana over my hair, low-maintenance appearance, dressing for comfort and adventure and challenge and wherever the day may take me.
I am not defined by a pronoun. I choose she/her in reference to my sex only, and in that identity of my sex, a recognition and homage to the women in my family who struggled and suffered and fought through unimaginable hardships for agency and equality and freedom to be whoever they wanted to be and who also granted me the freedom to be who I truly am without oppression or gender expectations. I am woman, but that is not all that I am, and I will never let someone else define me by a label of their choosing.
I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story. It was very brave of you to do so. Especially since you shouldn't feel the need to validate where your stance comes from and why you feel the way you do regarding the "issues" (for lack of a better term) brought up in this thread.
Comments
I'm truly sorry to hear about your depression. I wish you well and, again, I wasn't trying to oppress or demonize the trans community so I apologize if that's how it came off. I was merely speaking up for an additional representation. Peace to you.
I mean, yes, I'm aware that there are occasional anomalies like that in development in different ranges. I know someone who is intersexed who had a very difficult and complicated life journey.
I will probably do some more research on my own because I like information and knowledge is good and I am a believer that humanity continues to evolve and change both psychologically and physically in many ways. But for now, I think I can comfortably settle with the idea that sexuality is just a multi-faceted part of our identities and the hows/whys of attraction are sometimes extremely complicated and varied. I personally don't feel at this time that these studies are necessarily an accurate representation of the majority of people I know personally, but I do also know some sexually fluid people as well as some with alternative lifestyles so it can't be discounted either. I also don't yet know what factors like age or genetics or generation might have influence (or not) in these studies or what the full statistics are. I only know, as I said before, my own experiences, preferences and the perspectives of the people I've had around me throughout my life who have shared theirs and I would not doubt or question their personal journeys regarding that because most of them are quite mature enough and settled in their lives nowadays to have that certainty.
I guess my bottom line in all of this is just that if someone does base their sexuality on sex and not gender, they should not be demonized or bullied for it. Leave them alone. Everyone has some kind of preference and should be allowed that without being pressured or persecuted. No one owes anyone their attraction.
Exactly Inclusivity means everyone, both sides of the political spectrum are both really bigoted, honestly I don't want to get more into this since talking about Inclusivity tends to get political.
I doubt anyone could keep a conversation about Breasts "PG".
Yes. They put new clothing and hair that had bows, ribbons, stereotypical feminine designs... Then put it under masculine as well. I have no problem with men wearing traditionally feminine outfits, but if the sims team wants to show they agree with that they should make the clothing fit both body frames, instead of throwing it in for men when it doesn't fit right and is not actually masculine.
I will be happy to filter by feminine for my male sims when the outfits do not morph their bodies around.
I don't see the conversation as political so much as humanitarian at its core. I don't think that people are necessarily bigoted, there will always be some, of course, but I do think that everyone, in all groups, no matter which one you identify with, could be a little more compassionate and respectful to others and remember to give the benefit of the doubt before jumping to conclusions. We all do it at some point because we all make mistakes and we all have things that trigger our passions because we are all simply human. But we are all also capable of correcting our own faulty behaviors and moving forward and evolving. It just takes a little effort and willingness to understand. Look at that, there's things we have in common after all.
It's for lack of a better term, "strange" to me to have every Sim introduce themselves with their pronouns. I get that everyone has them, but not everyone introduces themselves to people using their pronouns. I know I don't.
I have told people my name before, of course. But never in my life have I said "My name is Chanel and my pronouns are she/her" the way it was shown in CAS during the livestream. And I would assume most of the population is the same way, instead relying on gender representation (which may or may not match a person's biological sex) for them to figure you out gender identity. Even the few transgender folk (1-2) I have met use names and gender expression to show what gender they are, as opposed to pronouns. So (and I could be wrong) I feel the introduction using pronouns really only applies to those who use non-binary or neo-pronouns whereas the majority rely on gender expression and name. Twitter bios I don't think are a good indicator of this, as a lot of people (myself included) only have them listed out of solidarity, and I've actually thought of taking them out of my bio anyway.
While I don't have a problem with Sims' pronouns being displayed next to their name, I feel this is something that should be optional for those of us who rely on physical presentation.
And I also agree with @LiELF about still having a sexual identity, biological sense, and sexual preference in game as well. Trying to keep this as PG as possible, I would be attracted to both a person's sex and gender presentation, as I prefer both male parts and male presentation and do not think I would personally be attracted to a male presenting person who has female parts. Although I can't say for sure as I've never been in such a situation
Personality,depth,humor,consequences,lore,customization.
Oh nothing. Just feeling a bit random today.
That tiny red guy is really funny.
All mine act the same as well, and no I don't think pronouns will change behaviors unless they also give us an update that includes gender preferences.
Yeah, I'd like pronouns to show up on the relationship panel, like traits and career, instead of above their head. It would be good to select a sims's sexuality along with their preferences in a chemistry sistem, that you can select in cas like the likes and dislikes. For gameplay I'd love a Get To Work refresh with the addiction to get plastic surgery and gender reassignment surgery and maybe hormons to transition
@SERVERFRA
Praying that everything is completely optional so you don't have to deal with the 'silliness' in your game.
father and son? uh. my friend are you sure that's what you meant?
Anyway, I'm happy about this update. Hopefully they won't show the pronouns on top of the sims head and rather in the relationship panel/sentiment panel/something like that, but that's not something they showed so I'm not worried about it at all. I'm working on making a save file for myself so I'm appreciative of any new customization especially one so many people were wishing for.
Simcest, can be weird but it's definitely a thing in the community, you can literally have Johnny Zest impregnate his own mother in the basegame, assuming that Nancy is his mother, Johnny backstory states that he's a Landgraab despite him not being in the Landgraab genealogy, I don't get how disowning someone somehow magically removes them from your entire family tree, seemed like an oversight on the Devs part.
So I don't usually do this, but for the purpose of attempting to bring about some understanding of my perspective and identity for some of the people in this thread, I'm going to explain a little bit about myself. I don't even know if any of this is going to make sense to others, but I will do my best.
I'd like to start off by saying that I don't like labels. I have never liked labeling myself in any way because I find labels to be extremely limiting and they do, in their own way, promote bias and stereotypes. This means that, in some ways, I have never felt like I completely "belonged" anywhere. I have brushed with many groups and have been part of them, but sometimes, in almost contradictory ways, I've also not belonged. This is all internal, of course, whereas others from those groups might perceive things differently, but I don't usually feel a need to change that. I am who I am and I live how I live and I prefer to live completely free of expectations and molds so that I am also free to change and evolve as I need to. Doing this gives me balance and also allows for me to keep my mind open to alternate perspectives of all types.
I'm going to use a mix of modern terms and what some might see as "outdated" perspectives and tropes for an attempt at a clearer depiction of my background.
I have, all my life, been gender fluid. Born female, with female pronouns, yet never being constricted by anyone in my family to exhibit only female stereotypical aspects. My natural state is somewhere in between male and female gender expression with some days being ultra feminine (not common) and many days being what some would perceive as "boyish". In the time of my childhood, we didn't have pronoun changes unless a person was transexual. My household was a lower income matriarchy (me, my mother and my grandmother) living in a patriarchal world but in our home, we were completely free from the stereotypes of male dominance in our society. We made our own rules and allowed ourselves to be whoever we wanted to be. My own mother said to me (more than once) starting from when I was a very young age, how fortunate she felt that, in me, she had both a son and a daughter. This was completely natural for us, though very unusual for the common world, and understood by us both, if not "unconventional" to standard perceptions.
As a small child I didn't like to play with baby dolls or play "mother". I loved my dinosaur collection. I loved stuffed animals and action figures and creative toys. My first ever hero was Disney's Robin Hood. I wanted to marry him but I also wanted to be him so I got a playset bow and arrow one Christmas. I used to play outside a lot but I could never get into playing the games that little girls were playing, like "house" or "tea party" and instead, ran off to play "monster" or "explorer" with the boys. My first best friend was a boy, and we got made fun of a lot by other kids for connecting outside of our "gender" or default sex groups. As I grew older, I continued to be this way. I was outdoorsy, I loved to climb trees, collect glass animals and play with barbies (but in an independent, feminist way), make them clothes (my mother was a natural sewer and taught me) and I loved to roughhouse. I was loud at home, yet shy in public. My favorite color was black since at least first grade (still is), and when I got my first bike, it only came in "boys" style and color (black) or "girls" style and color (pink). I got the "boys" and called it my "motorcycle" and rode it everywhere. I even inadvertently influenced two other girls to get the same bike because they admired mine. And there was a time when I had to prove myself in order to join a group of boys (my cousin and his friends) that I could ride just as well as they could. It was one of my shining, triumphant moments when, with my female friend as an additional passenger on the back of my bike, we raced through our downtown, chasing the boys who were trying to ditch us (and they failed) only to have them eventually stop at a meeting place and grudgingly, yet respectfully, admit that I was a better rider than they thought. I even saw a little admiration in their eyes. After all, I did it with a passenger and they were all without. After that, I was often invited to come along trail riding and to wheelie and skidding contests. I conquered.
When I was twelve, I expanded my wardrobe to include boys' styles. I even "disguised" myself as a boy sometimes when my best friend (female) and I wanted to go wandering around at night... to deter predators from approaching us, as it was alarmingly common in that time before everyone carried a cell phone. In my teens I had more female friends as well as male. We were outcasts and bullied. We didn't push gender tropes on each other, it didn't even occur to us, we just accepted whatever flowed naturally and we didn't try to label it. We found others like us and welcomed them into our circle and leaned on each other and made each other laugh. We also accepted the friendships of people who weren't "weird like us". Friendship was friendship. It meant accepting someone for who they were and reserving judgement for bad decisions and actions. Many of those friends evolved to become part of the LGBT+ community.
There's more, so much more I could tell about struggles, hardships, challenges, changes and battles. I've grown so much since then but much of my core self is still the same. Sometimes there's a small shift or a temporary urge to alter how I express myself; feminine phases of wearing a lot of makeup and pretty sweaters and shopping with my bestie (yes, the same one who was a passenger on my bike that day), dramatic phases of returning to my "home base" of all-black, my neutral and balanced self, letting my creative energies flow in other ways, wrapped in introversion and introspection and philosophical existentialism; and then back again to a return to the "Tomboy" I've always been, the boyish self in jeans and Timberlands and button down shirts, bandana over my hair, low-maintenance appearance, dressing for comfort and adventure and challenge and wherever the day may take me.
I am not defined by a pronoun. I choose she/her in reference to my sex only, and in that identity of my sex, a recognition and homage to the women in my family who struggled and suffered and fought through unimaginable hardships for agency and equality and freedom to be whoever they wanted to be and who also granted me the freedom to be who I truly am without oppression or gender expectations. I am woman, but that is not all that I am, and I will never let someone else define me by a label of their choosing.
I for one completely understand the feeling of never finding a place where you belong, hell I'm still trying to find a place where I belong, honestly you're just like me, just another puzzle piece that doesn't fit into the puzzle, I used to use that puzzle metaphor quite a bit when I was younger, it's hard trying to fit in when you don't really have anyone else who could relate to you and besides us outcasts must stick together.
@LiELF thank you for sharing.
I just want to say that I admire the way you always express yourself so eloquently and respectfully in discussions with topics of this nature. The unique insights you provide leave me time and again with a sense of reassurance; I can almost hear my scrambled braincells shift back into some kind of logical position. You make sense. To me anyway.
I don’t like labels for the same reasons that you stated, however, If they give another person a sense of security or feeling that they “belong”, good for them.
Of course the story that you shared is a more personal one but resonates with me on various levels. A detail that particularly moved me is -interestingly enough- the one about Disney Robin Hood. He was my hero too!! In fact, he still is! I can’t say I ever wanted to marry him haha, but I definitely wanted to be him!
Back when I was a kid, my mother ( a dressmaker! ) made me a green Robin Hoodie onto which my dad painted Robin Hood’s foxy portrait. While all the cool kids in their Optimus Prime T-shirts went out to scour the streets on their skate boards, I got myself lost in the woods (or some random neighborhood ) on my bike, proudly wearing my green Robin Hoodie - hood pulled over my head- daydreaming about all the heroic deeds I would perform some day in the future. (Sorry that day has yet to arrive 😆).
Sure, Transformers are cool, but Robin Hood is something else. Most of my childhood involved me pedaling around on my bike with my friend , the boy from next door who’s father didn’t allow us to play together due to their religion, but we met up in secret anyway. We were the “two weirdos” who always got lost in the woods and around streams and got chased by gangs of angry wild kids with wooden sticks who lived nearby.
My childhood also involved me getting pretty good at drawing foxes because I absolutely sucked at archery and dressmaking. Especially the latter. 😅
I think that in the end the foxes saved my life.
Yes father and son smooched out of the blue thanks to the Free Love Neighborhood Action Plan. This has happened more than once. I haven't seen any male female incestuous kissing.
When I was child I was labelled as a "black sheep" by my strict stepfather and other figures of authority. I didn't care for that label. Not the black part. Being called a sheep was insulting. So I kept Black and added Fox. Since then I am a white dude who labels himself as a black fox. So I get pronouns. It's about self ownership.
@CAPTAIN_NXR7 Thank you so much for your kind words. That's very humbling coming from such an impressive story weaver. But, of course, you are a member of Robin's merry outlaw band in the hidden forest. I thought I knew you from somewhere.
@ThunderNeb Self ownership is quite empowering. It's very good that you were able to take someone else's label of you and make it your own. And interesting that you chose Black Fox.
Well, what a happy coincidence! Here we have a merry band of outcast foxes. I believe a band of foxes is actually called a "Skulk". Long live the Skulk!
I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story. It was very brave of you to do so. Especially since you shouldn't feel the need to validate where your stance comes from and why you feel the way you do regarding the "issues" (for lack of a better term) brought up in this thread.
So I applaud your bravery.