Pronouns are coming to the base game?! «1234567…11...Next Go

12JEREMIA

Somebody say anything about pronouns. It was on livestream, cause I hope MomoMisfortune will be very happy that they wanted pronouns in The Sims 4. I feel surprised about it!

Also, if they're coming, I do have two of my alter egos that both have he/him/they/them pronouns you know.

Who's ready for this?

DaWaterRat

They said they're working on it and will share more about their progress in January's stream.

I'm glad that it's coming, and that they're taking their time to try to do it right rather than shoehorn in a lot of (American) Englishisms onto languages that won't fit.

HillOfTara

I'm so happy this is happening! It's time

dearie_blossom

I hope they‘re doing it right and give us non-binary pronouns as an OPTION instead forcing it on all sims. A lot of texts (notifications, etc.) from newer packs have gone completely gender neutral and I hate it. My male and female sims are not they/them. I speak both English and German. I noticed when I play the game in German my female sims will occasionally be addressed as he/him. We don‘t have a singular they in the German language so my guess is that if the original file in English uses gender neutral pronouns that the game in German will just pick a random gendered pronoun. It‘s such a bad user experience and I want none of it.

Icewolf

dearie_blossom wrote: »

I hope they‘re doing it right and give us non-binary pronouns as an OPTION instead forcing it on all sims. A lot of texts (notifications, etc.) from newer packs have gone completely gender neutral and I hate it. My male and female sims are not they/them. I speak both English and German. I noticed when I play the game in German my female sims will occasionally be addressed as he/him. We don‘t have a singular they in the German language so my guess is that if the original file in English uses gender neutral pronouns that the game in German will just pick a random gendered pronoun. It‘s such a bad user experience and I want none of it.

Totally agree. I also hate it when they call my sims they/them.

SnaveXs

I would still like my sims to have genders him or her in the game text. I hope it'll be optional like some feel it will but I don't know. When they're done with this fix, maybe they can work on a feature that will let us define the sexuality of Sims. I have to use a mod for it and I would like to be able to create a legit gay club, where the gays will frequent. I have to use the get together feature to have a group of gays show up at the community lots. I want Sims to come to a lot based on preference.

ignominiusrex

I doubt it means a universal switch to they/them pronouns for everyone, rest assured.

Having one's gender respected, is important to almost all people, whether cis or trans, binary or nonbinary, and that's why the addition of more pronouns in the game is a good thing. It allows players to avoid having their Sims misgendered, whether that means being called he/him, she/her, or they/them. If it's not right for that Sim, it's misgendering. Same as in real life.

Chicklet453681

I hope they don't just change every pronoun text to non-binary. My played sims are always he/him or she/her.

I'm concerned because the recent packs had some of the text already non-gendered which irritates me, because to me "they/them" is referring to a group of people, not a single person.

I have no problem with it being added to the game for those that want it, but I don't want to be forced to ONLY having non-gendered pronouns.

Hopefully EA will be "inclusive" to EVERYONE.

Darkshadow608

Perhaps it'll become an option to choose from under gender options in CAS? That makes more sense than changing all the text in game. Customising it in CAS would make it more unique and make every sim feel more individual. 🤷‍♂️

Miricha

Firstly, I would just like to point out that singular 'they' in English has been traced back to 1375 (in writing - it may have been around in speech even longer)

Anyway, personally this is not something I feel I need in my game, but I know there are players who've been wanting it so I'm happy for them. Inclusivity is always great.

logion

I'm going to be honest. I think that it would be better to make the sims5 support it, rather than going back and rewriting thousands and thousands of lines of text. Time that could be spent making other things for the game.

We will see what their experts will say, I have no idea how they are going to do it considering that the game is supporting 18 different languages. My guess is that they are hoping that there is a way that they can do this without having to spend years doing it. And I do hope that their solution is not to remove he/she from the game.

You have to consider the amount of time spent doing something versus the results, and spending this amount of time rewriting thousands and thousands of text in the game (you can't just replace he/she with he/she/they, that's not how it works for several languages!) for a change like this to the game is not worth it.

I got nothing against inclusivity, several new games that are made today have a he/she/they option and I got nothing against it.

But you have to be realistic. Those games were built to support it. The Sims 4 was released in 2014, Maxis are going to have to go back and rewrite or add lines that have been added for 7 years to the game.

Don't paint yourselves into a corner here Maxis.

mrs_starkey

I think it would be perfect, if the player could choose in CAS if this Sim is a she/he/they.

I would not want my Sims to be adressed as 'they'. I like having 'he' or 'she' in the messages.

I don't even know how that would work in my language...

Hopefully this will be optional and not forced on everybody!

emma_lecter

I don't see how a pronoun system would work in languages that don't have gendered pronouns, my native language Finnish for example. Adding the option to choose something like nainen/mies/muu (female/male/other) would in my opinion make things worse as I like to think my sims as gender-fluid.

I would also like to emphasise what was said earlier about the singular they - it has been a part of the English language even before Early Modern English, and it is a natural part of the actual language use. The reason for why some people deem it ungrammatic is because someone just decided it was ungrammatic based on their on views on what is "good" and "bad" language.

I understand this is a sensitive topic but even though most indoeuropean languages have gendered pronouns, there are lots of languages that don't make that distinction. As Sims is arguably a global franchise, I'm glad if they had the sense to consult actual language professionals on the matter.

MaggieMarley

Chicklet453681 wrote: »

to me "they/them" is referring to a group of people, not a single person.

They/them is frequently used to refer to a single person. E.g.:

1. Whoever the murderer is, they are an evil person. I wouldn't like to meet them in a dark alley.

2.
Mary: Do you have a child?
Fred: Yes.
Mary: What TV shows do they like?

3.
Bob: One of my maths students is struggling.
Anne: Do you think that they might benefit from some tutoring sessions?

Chicklet453681

MaggieMarley wrote: »

Chicklet453681 wrote: »

to me "they/them" is referring to a group of people, not a single person.

They/them is frequently used to refer to a single person. E.g.:

1. Whoever the murderer is, they are an evil person. I wouldn't like to meet them in a dark alley.

2.
Mary: Do you have a child?
Fred: Yes.
Mary: What TV shows do they like?

3.
Bob: One of my maths students is struggling.
Anne: Do you think that they might benefit from some tutoring sessions?

I understand that, but that's not how I speak. I always use the gendered reference when speaking about someone.

And, I don't want my played sims to be referred that way.

If I make a female in CAS, then I want her to be referenced as "she/her" in the game text. Same as if I make a male in CAS. Because I DO know what their gender is, because I, the player, decided what gender I wanted that particular sim to be.

I'm just saying that I hope that the devs do not take away the male/female gender pronouns and use non-binary for every single sim in the game.

I'm all for inclusivity, but don't "exclude" other people in the process of adding it.

temporalgod

It doesn't bother me, I'm cool with or without pronouns.

Benjamilian

You used three in saying so. Cool indeed!

Atreya33

I am fine with it as long as it is optional. I have male and female Sims I want female sims to be addressed as female, and male sims addressed as male. I don't mind a third option as long as it does not replace the male and female options.

MaggieMarley

Chicklet453681 wrote: »

MaggieMarley wrote: »

Chicklet453681 wrote: »

to me "they/them" is referring to a group of people, not a single person.

They/them is frequently used to refer to a single person. E.g.:

1. Whoever the murderer is, they are an evil person. I wouldn't like to meet them in a dark alley.

2.
Mary: Do you have a child?
Fred: Yes.
Mary: What TV shows do they like?

3.
Bob: One of my maths students is struggling.
Anne: Do you think that they might benefit from some tutoring sessions?

I understand that, but that's not how I speak. I always use the gendered reference when speaking about someone.

And, I don't want my played sims to be referred that way.

If I make a female in CAS, then I want her to be referenced as "she/her" in the game text. Same as if I make a male in CAS. Because I DO know what their gender is, because I, the player, decided what gender I wanted that particular sim to be.

I'm just saying that I hope that the devs do not take away the male/female gender pronouns and use non-binary for every single sim in the game.

I'm all for inclusivity, but don't "exclude" other people in the process of adding it.

I wasn't advocating for all pronouns to be replaced by they/them in the game. I don't think that would be a great idea as even non binary people do not all use they/them pronouns e.g. some use neopronouns such as xe/hir.

I was simply responding to your point about they/them referring to a group of people rather than to a single person. I would be very surprised if even you don't occasionally use it to refer to individual people, if only in cases where you are speaking about a stranger whose gender is unknown to you (as in the examples that I gave) so that the gendered pronoun is unavailable to you.

The argument that "they/them is only for groups of people" is often used as an excuse for not using the correct pronouns for nonbinary people who do use those pronouns. That is why I think it's a harmful thing to go about saying.

Cinebar

I see a bigger problem as Maxis tries to add more modern pronouns. For one working backwards to change every popup/text in the game is going to be a pain, for them. There will be bugs no doubt. Then when will every pronoun or non pronoun be enough? They (pronoun) may be the basic pronoun at the moment and generally accepted but what about all the other newly formed pronouns that have come on the scene? Or even as gender fluid Sims, how is Maxis going to know which pronoun to call that Sim on any particular day in the Sim life?

I'm sure some will be upset over something that complicated not being properly implemented. Then there are the newly different words for a pronoun, how many are there now? Dozens and dozens more than just they? When does it stop? How many will be enough? Seriously, this is something they will need to hire a specific person to do to research and find every acceptable pronouns that have recently been approved to be a pronoun as time goes on.

I would rather find out why my Sim likes a particular Sim (attraction system) rather than all that time spent on zillions of new pronouns because if you start to add things you wind up excluding so many others that prefer something different than they, and there are dozens of new pronouns to represent them, and or a gender fluid person would not want their Sim to be called he/she/they or something else on the wrong day.

I see a lot more problems coming rather than solving anything. And while Maxis works on all this everyone who wanted more occult characters, freed babies, male clothing, attraction system, cars, or whatever it may be will see how much time Maxis has to spend on this because they won't have a choice but will have to continue adding every newly created pronoun, to every text in game, when maybe just using the Sim's name would have been a better compromise for now, and they spend all that time working on this for TS5, because TS4 is pretty much still not as complete as far as gameplay goes and that seems to me to be where the money would profit...gameplay.

ETA: The reason I said there will be problems and possibly more work than would be expected by an average player who wouldn't understand code as others have pointed out is because a quick search shows there are 78 acceptable gender pronouns (possibly more) that would have to be included to make everyone feel included if they take on the challenge of adding all seventy eight.

tonymenogue

I love the diversity the sims is putting out there for us simmers

crocobaura

I think there is an easy solution to this issue. They could add a customizable field in CAS for whatever pronouns the sim will use. So, it will be up to the player to define the pronouns, whatever they feel is suitable, and the game will simply use those pronouns instead of the regular she/him or whatever.

logion

Here is a good post from bizuktag from another thread which shows how the game is handling text strings:

bizuktag wrote: »

From the tehnical side, it's not quick. Here's an example of a text string from the game, for one of the writer career levels:

The fans love {M0.him}{F0.her}. The critics hate {M0.him}{F0.her}. {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {M0.his}{F0.her} books sell like crazy, so {M0.his}{F0.her} publisher keeps paying {M0.him}{F0.her}. And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?

You can see that the options were added in as "him" or "her", and the game is going to look for whether the sim is designated "M0" or "F0" in order to match which text should be displayed. It's like that all throughout the game, which has many thousands of text strings. The files aren't set up to use one variable for gender, it's got the pronouns hard-coded in. And with that many text strings, it's probably a long job to go adjust them.

And here is a good post from pink_coco in another thread about the complications with the game supporting 18 languages:

pink_coco10 wrote: »

logion wrote: »

Option 2 is probably easier to add with the 18 different languages but that would remove the choice for people who would like to pick what they want.

It does not work with all languages. In Italian, for example, verbs, nouns, adjectives etc. are gendered. When a sim is promoted at work, you get the notification " Anna has been promoted to ...". In Italian it is "Anna è stata promossa ..." (feminine verb) or "Davide è stato promosso ..." (masculine verb). That is how it is now in game.
In order the phrase to be gender neutral it would be "Anna/Davide ha ottenuto una promozione"
That means that whole texts need to be written again, rephrased; just changing a pronoun or sims name is not enough in some cases.

And that is one issue with one message, the promotion message. The game have thousands of messages.

If you would like to visit the threads you can click on the arrows next to the names.

BookBear

crocobaura wrote: »

I think there is an easy solution to this issue. They could add a customizable field in CAS for whatever pronouns the sim will use. So, it will be up to the player to define the pronouns, whatever they feel is suitable, and the game will simply use those pronouns instead of the regular she/him or whatever.

That’s …. literally what we’re asking for. I don’t think you could find a single person who advocates changing all pronouns to they/them. I certainly wouldn’t like that, and I am very happy about the announcement of this update.

KiaraSims4Mods

Atreya33 wrote: »

I am fine with it as long as it is optional. I have male and female Sims I want female sims to be addressed as female, and male sims addressed as male. I don't mind a third option as long as it does not replace the male and female options.

I agree. It needs to be optional, I also play with male and female Sims.

Simfuncrunch

As a non-binary trans person I am glad to hear the Sims developers are working on adding a gender-neutral pronoun option to the game. I look forward to seeing how this change is implemented, as the male/female gender binary is evident throughout the game, as it is in society.

I assume, as with the patch that removed gendered restrictions on clothing, hair, and makeup in CAS, that using a gender-neutral pronoun will be an option, not mandatory for all Sims. Forcing all Sims to go by gender-neutral pronouns in all situations simply wouldn't make sense, and would be insensitive to trans as well as cis people.

Also, not all non-binary people go by gender-neutral pronouns; many go by she/her or he/him, sometimes depending on the encounter or situation. Being gendered correctly is affirming and important, but language is only a part of what it means to be non-binary.