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How much revising can be done w/o causing issues?

Hi :)

I thought it best to ask this question here in CAW because world builders and testers are the most knowledgeable when it comes to routing and what can cause issues in the game.

In some games, I'm not interested in features and builds for Pets/Late Night/Showtime, etc. So, I delete the buildings associated with what I'm not playing. I'll sometimes add something else to the lot or delete it and add smaller lots. I'll make small changes to commercial lots that fit the households I'm playing (adding potty chairs, more activities, etc).

Is there a point where we as players take things too far and mess up the routing in the game, cause lag and other issues?

I'm interested after reading some of the posts that mention routing issues.


a.k.a. - Linda

Comments

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    SinkalaSinkala Posts: 475 Member
    edited February 2013
    Hi Marlin, from my experience, editing a building or deleting a building on a lot and rebuilding on that lot shouldn't cause any issues, but deleting a whole lot and replacing it with another lot in world editor is likely to cause issues with routing.
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    MarLin114MarLin114 Posts: 1,724 Member
    edited February 2013
    Hi Sinkala, Thank you for your response. I've done the delete and add smaller lots thing.

    I don't experience major problems like game crashes but after doing some reading here, I thought that maybe our games would run smoother if we didn't revise 'so much.'

    Thanks again :)
    a.k.a. - Linda
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    fadingaudiofadingaudio Posts: 933 Member
    edited February 2013
    Does putting lots down to that? I mean without deleting a lot in the world, but placing a new lot in empty space.
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    Writin_RegWritin_Reg Posts: 28,907 Member
    edited February 2013
    As long as you don't use the World editor and place any lots you can't hurt the routing - it is the placing of lots that will affect the routing because the world editor is broke and gets worse with every update as it has not been updated since it was given to us. It worked good for just through Ambitions - but after that we started getting hesitations and lagging issues - which are one time of sign there are issue in routing.

    In CAW - which is updated for every update - even in there when simmers go in and add more lots and do more work - when they are finished with all the changes then they have basically a button to push called "rebuild routing" and CAW will instantly fix any created routing issues from adding lots or roads or anything else.

    But routing issues come out of altering the landscape from it's original build - which is one reason we can't add roads and such in the world editor or that would guarantee broken routing - but adding lots can and usually does change the ground from the way the builders lot were - especially in areas there is no lots and the ground will shift - which in turn breaks the routing through out the world in many cases - sort of like how domino's fall.

    Now the WE is so broke it not only fouls up surrounding land to where you add lots, it affects sidewalks - alters their original footprint when you add a lot near by - and roads - these are not usually visual - until you start playing, and besides the little hesitations that will constantly (like a clock ticking) go on when routing has been affected - you can see areas where before cars ran smoothly, joggers ran normally on the sidewalks, and suddenly in some spots sims sink into the ground - or go to extremes not to go to a certain spot and will go out of there way not to go near some places - as they see the problems we don't until our sims or cars in the road suddenly sink into the road or fish tail oddly around corners or curves. The more the town populates the worse the routing gets.

    Crashing is not a sign of broken routing. So no you won't crash, but your hood also will not last very long before it becomes unplayable. A little hesitation today becomes a big freeze eventually because in the world editor there is no button we can push called "Rebuild routing" so no matter what you do add any lot can and often does affect the routing as we alter the games footprint from what it was finished in CAW with.

    But you can do anything you want to do on an already existing lot but move it and delete it or in areas with out lots adding lots is virtually a death sentence for your world. It is the number one reason we request that people who build worlds to please leave a good number of their lots empty. And in build your own world's we ask creators to add all the empty lots a builder can use.

    You can delete a lot without hurting routing, you just can NOT add one back in.

    Some people have had some luck adding 2-3 small lots - but I have even felt the slight hesitations just adding the few. Until ea reworks the whole world editor, I suggest you are safe to do anything that does not require you to use the World editor ever. Leave the lot adding to the world creators who have a button to reset routing when they chaNGE THINGS.

    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    In dreams - I LIVE!
    In REALITY, I simply exist.....

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    MarLin114MarLin114 Posts: 1,724 Member
    edited February 2013
    Ahhhh Writin_Reg, it's as if you were looking over my shoulder :)

    Me thinking, "What's the harm in deleting that 64x64 lot that I'm not going to use and then plop down a few smaller lots?" Thank you so much for explaining so clearly what the harm will be in the long run.

    Will break that bad habit immediately. I like to play longer games so I'd really kick myself if I was the cause of an unplayable game.

    Take care Wise One :wink:

    a.k.a. - Linda
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    tjstreaktjstreak Posts: 808 Member
    edited February 2013
    Writin_Reg wrote:
    But you can do anything you want to do on an already existing lot but move it and delete it or in areas with out lots adding lots is virtually a death sentence for your world. It is the number one reason we request that people who build worlds to please leave a good number of their lots empty. And in build your own world's we ask creators to add all the empty lots a builder can use.

    A better solution would be for world builders to make their raw CAW files available so that gamers can add the lots they want, where they want them and when they want them.

    The irony here is that with a little looking, one CAN find CAW files for nearly all of the EA worlds. This means, even without EA's blessing, gamers can edit EA worlds to their heart's content. While player worlds can be edited without access to the original CAW files, it can be a difficult process to do so -- it is seldom worth the brain damage to engage in the effort.

    Perhaps gamers should refuse to download worlds which do not have the CAW file? This strikes me as a pretty good reason to refuse to download and use a world.

    I would note that this precisely is the issue which sparked my interest in world building: my efforts to add lots were frustrated. In many cases, the world creator simply slopped non-routable paint all over the place. Or their preplaced lots were not the right size. The only real alternative, if I wanted to use lots I liked, was to create my own world.

    Most lacking were the 64 x 64 lots. In many worlds, including EA worlds, placing a new 64 x 64 lot was well neigh impossible. To add insult to injury, many of the best lot builders like to build on the large lots. (In contrast, most lot builders seem to avoid the smaller lots -- finding good 20 x 20 or 25 x 20 lots is something of a challenge.)

    One of the problems with empty lots is that sims can still get stuck on them. This, of course results in lag. The problem becomes obvious whn you use Twallan's mods to turn on mapptags and find a half a dozen sims hanging wound on some empty lot at 3:00 a.m. in the morning. Including many empty lots seems to create more problems than it solves.
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    Writin_RegWritin_Reg Posts: 28,907 Member
    edited February 2013
    Well I have found a way around that to a degree TJ, as i do like to leave lots for future generations with nothing on them because I don't want some pooled game sims being placed in some worlds, and have found that tourists in particular are known to pull that which you speak of - so I will often change a lot designated as residential to a community lot with no visitors allowed and it seems to help the congregations that like to gather. It also tends to keep wild horses from choosing to take up residence there as well.

    But yes I know what you are saying and for those who have tamed the CAW wild beast I fully agree that making changes in CAW is always the best choice for the very fact we can rebuild routing everytime we do anything. So it might even be worth someones wild to at least learn the basics so if they have the CAW files then choose that route. I would definitely not argue that. As long as someone is doing it just for themselves that is fine.

    But for people who can't use CAW or the CAW files - whether it is the lesser pcs, or the Mac users, or people just too afraid to try it at that point - well they need some kind of solutions too seeing the WE is so damaged. You can't even use that to plant trees - I mean nothing about it has been useful - so they would serve everyone by just getting rid of it period if they are not going to ever fix it. People wonder why their games won't hold up and the WE has got to be the absolute worse offender.

    But yes, I totally agree if one can use CAW, it is indeed the better solution of any of them.

    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    In dreams - I LIVE!
    In REALITY, I simply exist.....

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    peoineepeoinee Posts: 2,183 Member
    edited February 2013
    writin_reg that kinda helped me with ideas for my world im building i want it to be updateable so i know now i can place community lots no visitors allowed and it will have space for updates but not have superlag. :P
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    fadingaudiofadingaudio Posts: 933 Member
    edited February 2013
    tjstreak wrote:
    Most lacking were the 64 x 64 lots. In many worlds, including EA worlds, placing a new 64 x 64 lot was well neigh impossible. To add insult to injury, many of the best lot builders like to build on the large lots. (In contrast, most lot builders seem to avoid the smaller lots -- finding good 20 x 20 or 25 x 20 lots is something of a challenge.)

    This has been my biggest problem. Finding a world I can play in. EA worlds are all too big. I can't stand tons of empty space...it slows down my sims getting to places and larger maps come with more lag. I try to stick to medium/small maps. I also hate big lots and the way they look. Where I live most people live on small lots and only those who own horses or cattle have large ones. So I want a world with much smaller lots like 20x20 and 20x15. Only a handful of 30x30 lots. I know this isn't what most people like to create so I kind of have to make do with the ones I've found. Finnington is the one I'm currently building, but I did plop down two 10x10 lots for little shops. Sigh means I'm going to have to rebuild it later this weekend.

    I give props to world creators because lord knows you guys have to do a lot of hard work and put up with a lot of stress to make these maps. So this is no complaint of the work you guys do, but on EA who chose such a pain in the *** system for everyone to work with. I've tried so many times to create my own world, but the whole thing isn't very user friendly. :/
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    Writin_RegWritin_Reg Posts: 28,907 Member
    edited February 2013
    fadingaudio,

    Hey Rflong has several worlds that would suit you well then - some of which are her Tiny Town, Once Upon a Town, Picaroon - all of which have lots in the sizes you like - she provides both some lots with houses and still leaves plenty of lots empty as well. She has other - as well but off the top of my head those are the first ones that came to mind that might interest you the most.

    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    In dreams - I LIVE!
    In REALITY, I simply exist.....

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    tjstreaktjstreak Posts: 808 Member
    edited February 2013
    Writin_Reg wrote:
    so I will often change a lot designated as residential to a community lot with no visitors allowed and it seems to help the congregations that like to gather. It also tends to keep wild horses from choosing to take up residence there as well.

    I have found that does not work so well. For Rain City, I have made a collection of deco buildings, which don't have the problem because I don't place them on lots. But making deco buildings, particularly fro scratch can be rather time consuming, especially with the larger mansons.

    So I got lazy. I took many of the lots and made them Commerical -- no visitors allowed. The advantage of doing this in CAW is the lots keep their refrigerators, stoves and other residential only stuff. After the game has been compiled, the zoning can be changed to residential in game. It cannot be changed back into commerical in game, at least not without losing all of the residential only items.

    In playing the game, my sim was walking by one of the commercial - no visitors allowed homes, only to find a couple other sims playing in the swimming pool.

    In short, the no visitors allowed zoning does not seem to keep sims from entering the lot. In fact, I am not quite sure what it does.

    For a while, I stuck a bunch of empty -- no visitors allowed lots in my world -- Actually more as markers for myself. But sims would still congregate on these lots -- so I removed them.
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    tjstreaktjstreak Posts: 808 Member
    edited February 2013
    I also hate big lots and the way they look. Where I live most people live on small lots and only those who own horses or cattle have large ones. So I want a world with much smaller lots like 20x20 and 20x15. Only a handful of 30x30 lots.

    I tend to use other people's lots. Not so much because I am a horrible lot builder, but because some peole do a better job than I do. Plus I use many EA lots, including those I have heavily modified.

    Rain City has a large suburban area. The area closet to downtown has the nicest homes on the biggest lots. The further away you get from downtown, the crappier the homes get, tending to be on smaller lots -- until you finally descend into Mobile Home Park Hell.

    A funny thing happened when I was trying to fill these lots. I had no problem finding really good looking homes on 40 x 40, 30 x 40, and 30 x 30 lots.

    But finding homes for the smaller lots was a challenge. You would think that with over a half million homes available on the web, filling up a bloc of 20 x 20 lots would not be that hard. But people, apparently don't want to build small reasonably priced lots.

    Most of the smaller lots I found were pure garbage. The exception seems to be Plasticbox's Wee Barnoid series. But I really did not want to take all that much from Plasticbox. [I did put in many of my Ticky Tacky Starter Homes, however.]

    (That part of town now has most of my deco homes because making a small deco home is a lot less work than making a deco mansion.)

    So while building a world with small lots may seen to be nice in theory, it is a problem in practice. Unless one wants to build everyone of those small homes, it's just plain hard to find anything decent in the smaller sizes. And building 50 or so well designed small lots is a major undertaking. Personally, there are other ways I can spend my time.
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    Writin_RegWritin_Reg Posts: 28,907 Member
    edited February 2013
    When I was looking for the really tiny 10 x10 and 10 x 15 lots for another simmer family member - I went to a number of the contest threads where they were building the tiny houses and found a lot of surprisingly nice places - although I find the really tiny ones a chore to use - I have made a few myself, I did find on those contest threads some of the best builders come out for those and do a real nice job. Ruthless KK, and Lorelei, and Romangi and others that do such nice work are often found doing houses for those competitions. perhaps you will have some luck checking those threads out. Creative Corner also.

    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.

    In dreams - I LIVE!
    In REALITY, I simply exist.....

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    tjstreaktjstreak Posts: 808 Member
    edited February 2013
    Writin_Reg wrote:
    When I was looking for the really tiny 10 x10 and 10 x 15 lots for another simmer family member - I went to a number of the contest threads where they were building the tiny houses and found a lot of surprisingly nice places...

    That you are talking about contest threads speaks volumes about the paucity of small lot residences. I found filling a couple of blocks to be a challenge, let alone an entire world.

    For me, most residential lot tend to be placeholders -- until I am able to replace them with a deco building. As things stand, I am well over my target of 50 residential lots.

    But I am not opposed to small lots. As a general rule, NPC sims really cannot afford the larger more expensive lots. The inexpensive lots tend to fill up rapidly with NPCs, while the expensive ones tend to remain empty. An empty lot is wasteful because the game can only accomodate so many lots before it starts having problems. I consider lots to be a valuable resource which should be used carefully.

    Since an active family only uses one lot, the other lots exist primarily for the benefit of the NPCs.
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