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Why I Disagree That Traits Don't Matter

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ChazzzyChazzzy Posts: 7,166 Member
I know people love to say that the traits don't matter and that all Sims are the same, but I disagree. Sims are reflective of people. All people (unless you have some kind of disorder) have the ability to experience all emotions at some point in time, and that is reflective in the Sims. This means your Sims with the Jealous trait, Evil trait, and Hates Children trait for example can all get angry or sad or uncomfortable, etc. The "gameplay" part comes into play here because you get to determine what exactly will make the Sim with that trait get angry, sad, or uncomfortable, etc.

You could of course put up certain paintings or place certain objects into a room to influence the emotion of your Sim. You could also put someone in the room with an opposing trait to influence your Sim's emotional state. Some traits you don't have to do anything at all, they will just automatically go into a particular emotion. I don't see anything wrong with that.

You have the choice where if you don't want your Sim with the Hates Children trait to ever get angry, you can do things to avoid it. Or if you only want your Sim with the Good trait to be sad all of the time, you can do things to make it happen. I don't subscribe to the idea that just because a Sim has the Hot-Headed trait that it's somehow unfathomable for that Sim to ever be sad.

There are only 4 traits in the game (that I can think of at the moment) that I actively avoid:
Kleptomaniac: I don't like my objects to go missing or be stolen.
Cat Lover: I don't play with cats in my game so it's useless.
Dance Machine: I don't have my Sims dancing all of the time so it's useless.
Insider: I don't often start club gatherings so it's useless.

Every other trait I can work with in some capacity. Bottom line, in my opinion, is the traits do what they say they will do. Certain environmental changes can force a Sim with a particular trait to be in a particular mood. If you don't want that mood, you can avoid it. If you want that mood, you can do things to keep that mood around.

One thing I will say is I believe we have about 15 emotions give or take in the game. So of course if you have a Sim with the Squeamish trait who is angry and a Sim with the Dog Lover trait who is angry, "angry" will mean the same to both Sims. This means they will react the same. You can see them both stomping around, slamming the refrigerator, or doing more Mean socials because they are both angry and in the game, that is what angry Sims do. So there is an argument to be made that there could be more variety in what "angry" means in the game so that every Sim in that emotional state reacts differently to anger. In real life, there are different levels to anger so the game could implement that somehow. But overall, I'm not mad at it at all.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • CorkysPetalsCorkysPetals Posts: 1,400 Member
    Chazzzy wrote: »
    So of course if you have a Sim with the Squeamish trait who is angry and a Sim with the Dog Lover trait who is angry, "angry" will mean the same to both Sims. This means they will react the same.

    This is my view on the situation. We agree that all angry sims act the same, but not all angry humans act the same. This is true for all the emotions in the game. There are very few unique behaviors that become available to trait holders when certain emotions appear. Because of the mechanics of the game, emotions override traits. A painting will make ALL sims flirty, but in real life, different people will react... differently.

    I like your idea for different levels of emotional response. IRL not everyone has strong reactions a rock. Not everyone has the same reaction to a rock. I think the real problem is that the emotion system was given priority over traits in Sims4 as the new selling point. It's probably too late to change that.

  • ChazzzyChazzzy Posts: 7,166 Member
    edited January 2020
    Chazzzy wrote: »
    So of course if you have a Sim with the Squeamish trait who is angry and a Sim with the Dog Lover trait who is angry, "angry" will mean the same to both Sims. This means they will react the same.

    This is my view on the situation. We agree that all angry sims act the same, but not all angry humans act the same. This is true for all the emotions in the game. There are very few unique behaviors that become available to trait holders when certain emotions appear. Because of the mechanics of the game, emotions override traits. A painting will make ALL sims flirty, but in real life, different people will react... differently.

    I like your idea for different levels of emotional response. IRL not everyone has strong reactions a rock. Not everyone has the same reaction to a rock. I think the real problem is that the emotion system was given priority over traits in Sims4 as the new selling point. It's probably too late to change that.

    Yea I'm wondering how they could edit the game so that there are different levels per emotions. Like for Hates Children, maybe if a person with that trait passes by a child, they could be Level 1 Angry. If they're in a room with that child for x amount of time then they could be Level 2 Angry. If this Sim has their own kids, they could be Level 3 Angry lol. But what would the difference be between the different levels? I guess they could do different Angry actions. They could make everything we have available now as Level 1 and then add new stuff for Levels 2 and 3 just not sure what they could be.

    I'm just throwing ideas out but it sounds interesting!
  • SharoniaSharonia Posts: 4,853 Member
    Some traits don't matter and could really do with looking at and improving. I have never noticed any difference from a sim with the clumsy trait to a sim without it and I'm sure there are a few others that are as equally weak and pointless. I do think a lot of the traits matter though. The problem is that emotions are so strong they just always override everything and any behavior that stems from the chosen traits is more than often hidden by the sims emotions. I feel people are putting blame in the wrong place when they talk about traits that don't matter. I feel that emotions are where the faults lay when it comes to sim personality and why sims often seem to all act the same way.

    I like very much the idea of having more varied ways for sims to show the same emotions.
  • CaptainElsaCaptainElsa Posts: 226 Member
    I feel like traits are more related to whims than emotions... which is fine but I find I increasingly forget to fulfill my sims' whims (especially after I, for better and worse, added a mod that makes the Reward Store cheaper as I play on Shortened Life Spans).

    It's a shame because I LOVE traits! I love making sims one-of-a-kind.
  • ChazzzyChazzzy Posts: 7,166 Member
    edited January 2020
    Sharonia wrote: »
    Some traits don't matter and could really do with looking at and improving. I have never noticed any difference from a sim with the clumsy trait to a sim without it and I'm sure there are a few others that are as equally weak and pointless. I do think a lot of the traits matter though. The problem is that emotions are so strong they just always override everything and any behavior that stems from the chosen traits is more than often hidden by the sims emotions. I feel people are putting blame in the wrong place when they talk about traits that don't matter. I feel that emotions are where the faults lay when it comes to sim personality and why sims often seem to all act the same way.

    I like very much the idea of having more varied ways for sims to show the same emotions.

    I agree 100%. Each trait makes Sims want to do different things BUT if you can get Sims with 2 different traits to reach the same emotion, they will act the same because the emotional states do not have layers as far as actions go (only time). All Angry Sims act the same just like all Sad Sims act the same. So to improve this, they would have to go back and find a way to layer each emotion so that there are different levels (Sims do different things at each level) and apply them to only particular traits. This way, if a Sim with the Hot-Headed trait got angry, maybe they can reach Level 3 whereas if a Sim with the Cheerful trait gets angry, they maybe can only reach Level 1 because they're typically happy anyway.

    I wonder if they are considering making adjustments to things like this.
  • ChazzzyChazzzy Posts: 7,166 Member
    I feel like traits are more related to whims than emotions... which is fine but I find I increasingly forget to fulfill my sims' whims (especially after I, for better and worse, added a mod that makes the Reward Store cheaper as I play on Shortened Life Spans).

    It's a shame because I LOVE traits! I love making sims one-of-a-kind.

    As soon as they gave us the ability to disable the Whims, I immediately did that lol I never paid much attention to them anyway in this game.
  • Bearpal64Bearpal64 Posts: 1,117 Member
    Its hit and miss with me.

    Some traits seem to matter and other traits don't seem to do much at all. Emotions totally overpower traits and in many ways break the game. From one moment you can be inspired and then by walking across the room change moods and then you can't do the interaction anymore.

    The only thing I've seen with a clumsy Sim is that they will break dishes.

    Active Sims can wake up feeling energized
    Gloomy Sims can wake up feeling sad.

    The potential is there but it's not as utilized as say Sims 3 traits.
  • ChazzzyChazzzy Posts: 7,166 Member
    Bearpal64 wrote: »
    Its hit and miss with me.

    Some traits seem to matter and other traits don't seem to do much at all. Emotions totally overpower traits and in many ways break the game. From one moment you can be inspired and then by walking across the room change moods and then you can't do the interaction anymore.

    The only thing I've seen with a clumsy Sim is that they will break dishes.

    Active Sims can wake up feeling energized
    Gloomy Sims can wake up feeling sad.

    The potential is there but it's not as utilized as say Sims 3 traits.

    The problem isn't the traits though is sort of the point I'm trying to make. The problem is with emotions. Once a Sim gets into an emotion, regardless of the traits, regardless of how they got into that emotion, they will act the same. So the devs would need to (in my opinion) find a way to adjust the emotions so that all Sims in the sad emotion don't act the same and all Sims in the angry emotion don't act the same, etc.
  • CaptainElsaCaptainElsa Posts: 226 Member
    Chazzzy wrote: »
    So the devs would need to (in my opinion) find a way to adjust the emotions so that all Sims in the sad emotion don't act the same and all Sims in the angry emotion don't act the same, etc.

    Completely agree. A Gloomy sim, for example, should get "depressed" when angered and behave more akin to mourning than fighting. A Self-Assured sim would get "Furious" and more likely to fight. A Child of the Island is less likely to get angry in general. A Klepto sim would steal out of spite... etc.

    I probably went too involved in my dream of how emotions and traits should interact but whatever.
  • DeKayDeKay Posts: 81,472 Member
    My thought is that the cat lover trait is awesome. 😂

    Anyway, most of the traits don't do much since the moodlet they get from it is not strong enough. If they could tweak that more, I think traits will become better since we get a lot of redundant moodlet that overpower the trait moodlets.

    Now, regarding the emotion acted by a different sim with a different trait: I think that will be hard cuz then maybe the debs will have to do a different animation for it? Or how exactly different do you want the Sims reaction to be?
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  • Admiral8QAdmiral8Q Posts: 3,303 Member
    I agree with Chazzy on this one. Traits do make quite a bit of difference. If you have traits that make a Sim focused and that helps with whatever they're up to. Don't put up a bunch of flirty paintings up with the aura turned on and expect them to stay focused. Think about it, it's a distraction.
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  • Sk8rblazeSk8rblaze Posts: 7,570 Member
    edited January 2020
    Chazzzy wrote: »
    Bearpal64 wrote: »
    Its hit and miss with me.

    Some traits seem to matter and other traits don't seem to do much at all. Emotions totally overpower traits and in many ways break the game. From one moment you can be inspired and then by walking across the room change moods and then you can't do the interaction anymore.

    The only thing I've seen with a clumsy Sim is that they will break dishes.

    Active Sims can wake up feeling energized
    Gloomy Sims can wake up feeling sad.

    The potential is there but it's not as utilized as say Sims 3 traits.

    The problem isn't the traits though is sort of the point I'm trying to make. The problem is with emotions. Once a Sim gets into an emotion, regardless of the traits, regardless of how they got into that emotion, they will act the same. So the devs would need to (in my opinion) find a way to adjust the emotions so that all Sims in the sad emotion don't act the same and all Sims in the angry emotion don't act the same, etc.

    I think building a whole life simulation game around emotions was kind of a bad idea. You kind of touch upon why I personally feel that is; emotions overpower traits.

    I feel the best way of seeing how this is so would be to pick one trait that both The Sims 3 and The Sims 4 possess, go to the wikia, and compare just how impactful TS3 traits are versus TS4. Virtually each trait has the complexity one would expect from a PC life simulation game. Genius in The Sims 3 versus Genius in The Sims 4. It's clear they did not spend enough time focusing on traits within TS4.

    With that said, TS4 is at fault for poorly recycling traits without refinements instead of coming up with a new personality system to better complement emotions.
  • Bearpal64Bearpal64 Posts: 1,117 Member
    Chazzzy wrote: »
    Bearpal64 wrote: »
    Its hit and miss with me.

    Some traits seem to matter and other traits don't seem to do much at all. Emotions totally overpower traits and in many ways break the game. From one moment you can be inspired and then by walking across the room change moods and then you can't do the interaction anymore.

    The only thing I've seen with a clumsy Sim is that they will break dishes.

    Active Sims can wake up feeling energized
    Gloomy Sims can wake up feeling sad.

    The potential is there but it's not as utilized as say Sims 3 traits.

    The problem isn't the traits though is sort of the point I'm trying to make. The problem is with emotions. Once a Sim gets into an emotion, regardless of the traits, regardless of how they got into that emotion, they will act the same. So the devs would need to (in my opinion) find a way to adjust the emotions so that all Sims in the sad emotion don't act the same and all Sims in the angry emotion don't act the same, etc.

    I definitely agree with you :)

    I just get caught on my words sometimes I apologize.

    It makes me wonder just how powerful traits would feel if the emotions were not there or were downplayed.
  • So_MoneySo_Money Posts: 2,536 Member
    It’s not that they don’t matter, it’s that the emphasis is all wrong. Certain characteristics should be much more prevalent and, frankly, more interestingly integrated from a gameplay perspective.

    Also, the interpretation of some of the traits is off the mark. For example, Hates Children is not at all what anyone expects it will be. Neither is Gloomy. I thought my gloomy sim would be a morose type and an introvert, not a guy who cries in the shower every morning.
  • fullspiralfullspiral Posts: 14,717 Member
    Here's the thing for me. I can make all kinds of sims and give them all kinds of traits, but they still "feel" the same when playing them. WHY they get tense or angry becomes of little relevance after watching them slam the fridge, or seeing them get tense because they haven't:

    Been outside,
    played video games,
    advanced in a career,
    bought something new,
    been active enough,
    painted or created something......

    What you send them to do to fix it is of little relevance. They all "feel" the same. It's just different things you do.

    The loner trait only adds tension to that sim when around others. They aren't happier by themselves. All it does is make their social decrease a wee bit slower than normal.

    It's just a very poor system overall and it's all coding to make them appear as if they have emotions, or traits. But really, go to another house and see the sim you last played hugging and being friendly with everyone....even the one you just made them a mortal enemy of.

    It's not deep. It's very, very, very, VERY shallow coding that means NOTHING in how the sims interact in their worlds. It's just made to look like it affects them.
  • CelSimsCelSims Posts: 2,270 Member
    I think my issue with traits is that it does very little to influence what a sim will choose to do autonomously for the most part. An energized sim will work out regardless of if they have the active trait. An inspired creative sim has the same chance to autonomously choose to paint a painting as a none creative sim. Music lovers have no more chance to autonomously start playing an instrument than any other sim. It's more about the emotion than the trait. And even then I would point out that my genius programmer lived for 128+ days before he choose to autonomously start a side job. In testing my neat sims cleaned up about the same number of times as the slob. Traits in many cases just decide which annoying idle animation you are choosing.

    There's exceptions of course but even then they often don't make sense. My 'hates children' mother of 3 may have a negative moodlet from it, but she's going to choose to go teach flash cards anyway. My mean sim may choose mean interactions more often but it's not going to stop him turning round and doing friendly ones right after.
    My evil sim kills someone with vampiric 'influence emotions' but often mourns their death for 2 days afterwards. I could go on.

    I try to keep the emotional influence from decorations to a minimum because they really count for more than traits do and overwhelm any difference sims may have due to traits. It's not that traits don't have effect, it's just that they are so generic with such small differences that it's barely noticeable.

    Also please remember that what your sim chooses to do is also very heavily reliant on what YOU have instructed them to do in the past. Painting is an example of this. To accurately judge if your creative, neat bookworm is autonomously any different from your genius,slob geek you need to start with two sims you have never ever instructed to do anything.
  • mikamika Posts: 1,733 Member
    edited January 2020
    more traits will make no difference if they stay as they are, traits should have an effect on gameplay beyond a single special interaction or emotional buff.

    how they interact with other sims and respond to situations should be different based on their traits. gloomy sims should be depressed and withdrawn longer than other sims after a death. cheerful sims should be trying to cheer others up, act upbeat and appear to move on faster only to sob in the privacy of their shower or bedroom. jealous sims should actually show jealousy when they see their lover or even a best friend getting very chummy with other sims. they should also act jealously and dislike sims who are richer/more famous and etc than them. we want to see actual personality come from these traits.
  • NushnushganayNushnushganay Posts: 9,418 Member
    Great thread, @Chazzzy .

    I can't say anything that hasn't been covered by someone else here, but the jealousy trait bugs me because it's nothing like what jealousy looks like to me, without mods. The plain in-game form of it, is more like just insecurity. And jealousy is not the same thing as simple insecurity. There is an element of proprietary feeling that is ignored by the game trait. And it does not involve feeling insecure or tense when not in the presence of the beloved. That seems a bit weenie-ish, the way is portrayed in the game.
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  • ChazzzyChazzzy Posts: 7,166 Member
    DeKay wrote: »
    My thought is that the cat lover trait is awesome. 😂

    Anyway, most of the traits don't do much since the moodlet they get from it is not strong enough. If they could tweak that more, I think traits will become better since we get a lot of redundant moodlet that overpower the trait moodlets.

    Now, regarding the emotion acted by a different sim with a different trait: I think that will be hard cuz then maybe the debs will have to do a different animation for it? Or how exactly different do you want the Sims reaction to be?

    I hate cats! I'm a dog person, even in the game (even though my Sims don't have dogs anymore either but that's beside the point lol).

    Hmm I guess just have certain interactions hidden unless that Sim reaches a certain level of an emotion. Right now everyone can do everything if they reach that emotion. So if they could find a way to introduce new little actions like the slam the fridge thing but only at certain times or whatever I think that would be cool. I do agree that it sounds difficult to implement though.
  • ChazzzyChazzzy Posts: 7,166 Member
    So_Money wrote: »
    It’s not that they don’t matter, it’s that the emphasis is all wrong. Certain characteristics should be much more prevalent and, frankly, more interestingly integrated from a gameplay perspective.

    Also, the interpretation of some of the traits is off the mark. For example, Hates Children is not at all what anyone expects it will be. Neither is Gloomy. I thought my gloomy sim would be a morose type and an introvert, not a guy who cries in the shower every morning.

    Lol and what would you call a guy who cries in the shower every morning if not gloomy? I guess a better word would be "Depressed" but they didn't want to name it that.
  • ChazzzyChazzzy Posts: 7,166 Member
    edited January 2020
    CelSims wrote: »
    I think my issue with traits is that it does very little to influence what a sim will choose to do autonomously for the most part. An energized sim will work out regardless of if they have the active trait. An inspired creative sim has the same chance to autonomously choose to paint a painting as a none creative sim. Music lovers have no more chance to autonomously start playing an instrument than any other sim. It's more about the emotion than the trait. And even then I would point out that my genius programmer lived for 128+ days before he choose to autonomously start a side job. In testing my neat sims cleaned up about the same number of times as the slob. Traits in many cases just decide which annoying idle animation you are choosing.

    There's exceptions of course but even then they often don't make sense. My 'hates children' mother of 3 may have a negative moodlet from it, but she's going to choose to go teach flash cards anyway. My mean sim may choose mean interactions more often but it's not going to stop him turning round and doing friendly ones right after.
    My evil sim kills someone with vampiric 'influence emotions' but often mourns their death for 2 days afterwards. I could go on.

    I try to keep the emotional influence from decorations to a minimum because they really count for more than traits do and overwhelm any difference sims may have due to traits. It's not that traits don't have effect, it's just that they are so generic with such small differences that it's barely noticeable.

    Also please remember that what your sim chooses to do is also very heavily reliant on what YOU have instructed them to do in the past. Painting is an example of this. To accurately judge if your creative, neat bookworm is autonomously any different from your genius,slob geek you need to start with two sims you have never ever instructed to do anything.

    Oh yea I think it was you that made a thread about your experiments with autonomy and traits.

    For the bolded, well SOMEONE has gotta teach the babies how to read/write right? Lol some people who have kids don't like them in real life but they still want their kids to succeed. That's how I look at it anyway.
  • ChazzzyChazzzy Posts: 7,166 Member
    mika wrote: »
    more traits will make no difference if they stay as they are, traits should have an effect on gameplay beyond a single special interaction or emotional buff.

    how they interact with other sims and respond to situations should be different based on their traits. gloomy sims should be depressed and withdrawn longer than other sims after a death. cheerful sims should be trying to cheer others up, act upbeat and appear to move on faster only to sob in the privacy of their shower or bedroom. jealous sims should actually show jealousy when they see their lover or even a best friend getting very chummy with other sims. they should also act jealously and dislike sims who are richer/more famous and etc than them. we want to see actual personality come from these traits.

    So you think better autonomous actions would improve the game vs emotions being the problem? Interesting
  • ChazzzyChazzzy Posts: 7,166 Member
    edited January 2020
    Great thread, @Chazzzy .

    I can't say anything that hasn't been covered by someone else here, but the jealousy trait bugs me because it's nothing like what jealousy looks like to me, without mods. The plain in-game form of it, is more like just insecurity. And jealousy is not the same thing as simple insecurity. There is an element of proprietary feeling that is ignored by the game trait. And it does not involve feeling insecure or tense when not in the presence of the beloved. That seems a bit weenie-ish, the way is portrayed in the game.

    Thanks!

    That jealous trait is annoying but I like it for some reason. In the game now, they get tense when their partner is off the lot right? Or is it if they're in another room? I can't remember.

    What would you like them to change about the Jealous trait in particular to improve it?
  • texxx78texxx78 Posts: 5,657 Member
    edited January 2020
    When a sim is feeling 'nice', meaning no emotions, he/she still don't act according to traits. A lazy sim won't watch more tv or just lay more in a coach than any other sim, a geek won't go more to the pc than any other sim, a 'loves the outdoors ' sim won't go out do whatever more than any other sim... and so on. I mean, i agree with emotions being a problem but i also think that even when without emotions, traits aren't making it. Traits should be stronger and define sims.
  • ChazzzyChazzzy Posts: 7,166 Member
    edited January 2020
    telmarina wrote: »
    When a sim is feeling 'nice', meaning no emotions, he/she still don't act according to traits. A lazy sim won't watch more tv or just lay more in a coach than any other sim, a geek won't go more to the pc than any other sim, a 'loves the outdoors ' sim won't go do whatever more than any other sim... and so on. I mean, i agree with emotions being a problem but i also think that even when without emotions, traits aren't making it. Traits should be stronger and define sims.

    Yea so that would be better autonomy. "Genius" Sims should want to play chess more often than Sims with some other traits. My theory is they had to limit autonomous activity in the game or else Sims will be constantly ending one activity earlier than anticipated to start up another activity because they would have so many desires. I think that's why Reading is sooo wonky in the game. Sims will literally pick up a book, sit down with it for 2 seconds, and then put the book down/away. It's so annoying to get a Sim to read, even with the new lot trait they added for a "quiet environment".

    I seriously hope someone somewhere is coming up with a way to correct the issues with emotions and autonomy for this game, especially since they intend for us to keep playing TS4 for some years to come.
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