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The Struggle of Impermanence or: I Will Probably Forget I Wrote This Within a Week

This game is fascinating to me for a number of reasons and one of them is the sheer weight and depth of criticism it receives, some of which I can relate to personally. Despite that, I have a great love for it on multiple levels and I find myself in this place where I want to understand why some aspects of it so deeply don't work for some people. Solutions to its issues are proposed and discussed on a regular basis, and some of those discussions I've taken part in or started over the years.

One of those topics that comes up repeatedly is impermanence. Or to put it in less academic-sounding words, the "nothing matters" problem. Wiping the slate clean is not only easy, it's got a sort of life of its own, with features like culling, to the point that the game can feel like you're playing a world that is the embodiment of short-term memory loss.

As a sandbox, this is arguably a merit. Sand is easily moved, easily shifted, and easily falls apart. Why is it then that the game can feel like the shifting of the sand is a detriment? I don't think it's just preference. I think it if was just preference, many people would simply adapt to the game as it is or go elsewhere and I don't think that happens in quite the way you'd think it would. Despite having played the game off and on over the course of multiple years, as well as doing in-depth modding of it, I still don't quite feel like I understand it. The opaque nature of it is as mystifying as the game itself. Typically, the nature of a video game is relatively easy for me to grasp. In this case, it feels at times like I'm endlessly chasing an explanation and thinking I have it cornered, only to turn round and see it sprinting off in a shape I hadn't seen before.

This could sound like a compliment, like the game is so complex and deep that it's hard to understand, but I don't think it's that. I think the game is complex and deep in its diversity of playstyles it interfaces with, but I don't think the design itself is particularly deep. This leads me to the idea that the driving contributor to the feeling of being opaque and hard to understand is that the game is an amalgamation of characteristics that are at odds with each other and don't quite fit in the same space. Like pieces of many jigsaw puzzles rammed together into a single shape.

And in this strange space is where it so passionately succeeds with some and fails with others. Some encounter one edge of the puzzle and see it one way. Others encounter another edge of the puzzle and see something completely different. Because the people are approaching it from different angles in a way that lends an entirely different perspective on the game.

So what does this have to do with the "nothing matters" problem and short-term memory loss? Like the literal sandbox, the sandbox of this game is often just sand. It is shaped as you shape it. It is perceived as you have shaped it and from the angle you're peering at it from. Despite its ineptitudes, it's still a functional Lump of Clay, providing an object that you can shape and play with, provided you are willing to do some imagining and molding.

It is, perhaps, opaque because it is more sand than it is game. There is no underlying game to perceive because there isn't one.

This is a lot of vague words, so let's look at some specifics. Some people talk of things like the shallowness of emotions or the lack of memories, but I think these are surface-level explanations of discontent. At the heart of it is a game that won't quite commit to anything and I don't mean things like being able to resurrect a dead sim rather than them staying dead, I mean more in the sense of it's trying to do too many things and they can't all fit in the same space. I did a weird sort of experiment at one point for the sheer curiosity of it, where I made all moodlets hidden for a time. Some players would probably have missed them dearly, but for whatever reason with the way I play, I found I hardly noticed their absence. And I have also almost never noticed the absence of whims, since the patch that turned them off by default. This is not meant to be a commentary on emotions or whims as features in and of themselves, but on the way the game can overwhelm you.

The brain can only process so many things at a time and the game can throw many of them at you in a small space. Emotions, whims, achievements, aspirations, satisfaction points, reward traits and potions, skills, ranked skills, quirks, perks, reward traits, cas traits, character values, weight and muscle change, aging, interaction queues, needs, object quality, environmental hazards (ex: fire), environmental changes (ex: dirty dishes, weather), careers, career goals, career rewards/unlocks, weather-aware outfits, temperature changes, thermostats for addressing temperature changes, audiovisual changes (ex: sim turning on music autonomously), things that require persistent attention to what a sim is doing to make them do it (ex: queuing up an interaction and it failing).

There is probably more I'm not thinking of, but I think I've made the point. These, of course, do not happen all at once most of the time, but I can't help wondering if many of these are unnecessary or unwieldy in their implementation and the game would feel much smoother without them (or at least with them less unwieldy). I can't help wondering if that's at the core of some of the discontent and why some people wax on about how older versions are so much better; not because of the common complaint that the older games have more, but because they have less. And not in the literal sense of less content, but in the sense of less things to focus on at once. Less systems that are in your face that are competing for your attention at any given moment. Some proponents of older iterations might at first think I'm crazy for saying this, but I think of an old video of someone playing Sims 1 that was brought up to me (or in some conversation about this game in general) a couple years ago and what I remember about the video was how focused and straightforward the gameplay was. At the time, I thought it was about how challenging it was to manage the sim's needs, or at least that was how its value was conveyed to me by the person sharing it, in my recollection. But right now, I wonder if the value in it wasn't the challenge at all, but rather the straightforward nature of its operations as conveyed to the player.

Perhaps I'm just chasing a shadow down a hall again and it will change shape once more on reflection; perhaps I'm just someone who is extra sensitive to stimuli (and I probably am) and that's why I think this is an issue. But even if I am extra sensitive to stimuli, I'm not convinced it isn't still an issue here. Especially considering that the official team for this game decided to disable whims by default. That wasn't something I thought up, that was an official decision long before I ever thought up anything like this. And normally I would think it incredibly strange to wholesale disable a feature in a game by default years into its life, but maybe the team saw then what I'm describing now; a system overwhelmed by too much, in need of some trimming.

And yet, this game is so many things to so many people. If you start smoothing the edges of the puzzle so that it turns into a cohesive whole, maybe you are fundamentally shrinking the game. Or maybe it can't come into its own until the jagged edges are addressed. Or maybe the pieces are fine, they just need better relationships with each other.

But anyway, for now I will continue to mod and sometimes muse about it all. And muse if I'm not just writing pretentious nonsense that doesn't mean anything.
Mods moved from MTS, now hosted at: https://triplis.github.io

Comments

  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 3,048 Member
    sawdust wrote: »
    So you can imagine and mold as much as you like but EA will stomp on your sand castle the minute your back is turned. :(
    I don't think this is that far off from a sandcastle in RL and the tides of the ocean on a beach, nor does it seem to me like what you're describing is a disagreement (though you may feel more passionately about its flaws than I).

    I think, perhaps, that in attempting to be too many things at once, the game loses a sense of identity, which is part of where the impermanence comes from. I don't know if that makes sense without an example to anchor it. Off-hand, I would say an example that relates to what you're saying might be the intersection of NPC roles at venues and player customization of NPCs in the world. Both are working systems in isolation, but like in the example of frustration you gave, they don't necessarily work together; in fact, they can contradict each other, with the one overriding the other. Theoretically, they could be redesigned to work together (perhaps by allowing the player to create/manage NPCs specifically for certain roles and lock them into said roles), but probably not without having anticipated such a clash of priorities in the game's early design.

    But then, considering the example I wrote just now based on your frustrations, perhaps the issue is not so much trying to do too many things, but having tried to do too many things without having properly communicated between teams in the beginning on how those systems may intersect.
    Mods moved from MTS, now hosted at: https://triplis.github.io
  • drakharisdrakharis Posts: 1,478 Member
    edited April 2019
    I dislike the lack of content for the money we pay and that it seems they are always having to fix something after any update. The more "heavy" the update like right before a new pack comes and our mods are disabled the worse the problems are, The lack of depth makes the game less fun. Those are my main problems with the game.

    @sawdust you brought up a lot of things I must agree with you on. Like actions matter. For example, if your sim lacks the Player trait that is earned in The Serial Romantic Aspiration under the Love category and is caught cheating you don't have the significant other do anything but get angry and storm off, Then the next day it's like nothing ever happened and everything is just fine once again. No married sims getting a divorce. No slapping in the face or drink thrown at them. No real drama as a result. I would cry when a beloved sim would die in Sims 2 and Sims 3. I will intentionally kill sims off and feel nothing in Sims 4.
    I still play Sims 2 and Sims 3. I play them with a few cheats all the packs and ZERO mods and ZERO CC. I use both mods and CC in Sims 4 because of the lack of what makes the Sims the Sims franchise we all know and love. Both games (Sims 2 and Sims 3) keep my interest in where I don't even realize a few hours went by.

    Don't get me wrong I do love playing Sims 4 just don't like some aspects of it. I love CAS and building in Sims 4. I love that my teens can live on their own. I love some other aspects of the game.

    I really hope that Sims 5 gives us back the franchise we all knew and loved. I hope that the devs learn from their mistakes. Making it playable to the point of NOT needing or wanting mods and CC with just a few cheats on occasion.
    Playtesting - not just tabletop games and card games any more. Really that should have been playtested in Beta and not [img]just with accounting and marketing but actual players. https://i.imgur.com/t48COW6.jpg[/img]
  • MadameLeeMadameLee Posts: 32,748 Member
    sawdust wrote: »

    It is at this point I disagree and why I don't like this game. You can't shape the game the way you want because of the many "EA overrides" that are out of the players hands. Things like set neighbourhood styles with no ability to edit. NPC spawnings whether you want them in your game or not. (don't go to the bar on alien or ghost night if you don't want them in your game). Vampires, you'd think it be enough to delete the pre-made ones but no, EA continue to insist on creating vampires in your hood.


    @sawdust are you sure that vampires are spawning in your Nhood? Since I have Vampire GP and I deleted the vampires and I haven't had any vampires spawning.
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  • sawdustsawdust Posts: 1,003 Member
    edited April 2019
    MadameLee wrote: »
    sawdust wrote: »

    It is at this point I disagree and why I don't like this game. You can't shape the game the way you want because of the many "EA overrides" that are out of the players hands. Things like set neighbourhood styles with no ability to edit. NPC spawnings whether you want them in your game or not. (don't go to the bar on alien or ghost night if you don't want them in your game). Vampires, you'd think it be enough to delete the pre-made ones but no, EA continue to insist on creating vampires in your hood.


    @sawdust are you sure that vampires are spawning in your Nhood? Since I have Vampire GP and I deleted the vampires and I haven't had any vampires spawning.

    At first I wasn't sure so I put them in a house and checked and yes they were a vampire.

    ps. edit to add this was not a single instance but continued at least 3 times after deleting the vampire. I now have a mod to keep my neighbourhoods vampire free.
  • CynnaCynna Posts: 2,369 Member
    edited April 2019
    sawdust wrote: »

    It is at this point I disagree and why I don't like this game. You can't shape the game the way you want because of the many "EA overrides" that are out of the players hands. Things like set neighbourhood styles with no ability to edit. NPC spawnings whether you want them in your game or not. (don't go to the bar on alien or ghost night if you don't want them in your game). Vampires, you'd think it be enough to delete the pre-made ones but no, EA continue to insist on creating vampires in your hood. I spent over a year building every lot in 3 worlds, my friend created the Sims for me and I downloaded Sims I wanted from the Gallery as NPC's. I tweaked each and every one giving them the skills needed to do the NPC jobs like gardener, mixologist etc. Within 24 Sim hours, 50% of my NPC's had been eliminated and EA had created theirs and put them in game, the majority of which were single elders or adults. Within another 24 Sim hours, Sims I had in houses were seen serving at bars or spas and when asked, were unemployed. So you can imagine and mold as much as you like but EA will stomp on your sand castle the minute your back is turned. :(

    The Sims themselves? They all behave the same. I can't even remember who's who half the time. They don't distinguish themselves. In Sims 2 and 3 there were always those Sims you loved or hated. It doesn't matter what traits you give them in Sims 4 as your "good" Sims are just as liable to give a "rude intro" or "troll teh forums" as your "evil" Sims. And when you ticked someone off in Sims 3, they stayed ticked off and you had to work to repair the relationship. Sims 4? Insult someone one minute and give them a friendly hug the next. Eazy peazy, lemon squeezy! Your actions mattered in Sims 2 and 3!

    I don't play now except to test my builds or test certain bits of game play. My stomach ties in knots when I finish a build knowing I will have to deal with dumb and dumber Sims. I have had to turn off free will in order to maintain some form of sanity. (something I thought I would never, ever do!)

    If I had a dollar for every time I said to my Sims... "why are you doing that?" ... "where are you going now?" ... "will you just sit at the plum table and eat your food!" ... "the kid's asleep, why are you sitting on their bed to eat your dinner?" ... "I told you to go there/do this, why are you just standing there?" (invariably that's because someone has just entered the neighbourhood and decided to speak to my Sim. Wish I could broadcast my intention that far. >:) ) ... "will you please "sit and chat" where I tell you and not get up fifty million times and change chairs." ... "stop looking at the salt and pepper shakers and eat your plum food" ... "I got ready for work in 20 minutes, why cant' you do it within 2 hours?" ... "are you still in the shower?" ... this list does not include all the "Doh!", "Ugh", "Nooooo" and general head slaps because of the stupid and/or childish things that happen in this game.

    "You Rule!" ??? Complete joke. In any other company it would be considered false advertising.

    I'm on my last hoorah with this game. Currently redoing Willow Creek in my favourite medieval/fantasy style of gameplay, have bulldozed every other lot in all the other worlds and I will mod this game to the hilt to stop all the EA overides as much as possible. I want to love this game, I really do but as it is, I find it frustrating, boring and shallow.

    At this stage, if they do have a Sims 5? It will require some major gameplay overhaul and some genius marketing to get me to even look at it. I can't even believe I'm saying this as the Sims has always been my No.1 equal favourite franchise of all the games I have ever played in my 20 years of gaming. Sims 4 has literally reduced me to tears. If we were married? I'd be applying for a divorce and I don't even believe in divorce! So sad. :(

    Quoted because it's so danged true. Your post says it all. In particular, I empathize with your description of EA stomping all over the best laid plans. That was such a fitting description of what it feels like, trying to play TS4

    It's truly a shame because I love the series so much.

    I keep coming to the forums in hope that there will be a patch that will address some of this game's problems, especially the identical personalities. However, it still hasn't happened, if ever. :/
    I3Ml5Om.jpg
  • sawdustsawdust Posts: 1,003 Member
    Triplis wrote: »
    sawdust wrote: »
    So you can imagine and mold as much as you like but EA will stomp on your sand castle the minute your back is turned. :(
    I don't think this is that far off from a sandcastle in RL and the tides of the ocean on a beach, nor does it seem to me like what you're describing is a disagreement (though you may feel more passionately about its flaws than I).

    I think, perhaps, that in attempting to be too many things at once, the game loses a sense of identity, which is part of where the impermanence comes from. I don't know if that makes sense without an example to anchor it. Off-hand, I would say an example that relates to what you're saying might be the intersection of NPC roles at venues and player customization of NPCs in the world. Both are working systems in isolation, but like in the example of frustration you gave, they don't necessarily work together; in fact, they can contradict each other, with the one overriding the other. Theoretically, they could be redesigned to work together (perhaps by allowing the player to create/manage NPCs specifically for certain roles and lock them into said roles), but probably not without having anticipated such a clash of priorities in the game's early design.

    But then, considering the example I wrote just now based on your frustrations, perhaps the issue is not so much trying to do too many things, but having tried to do too many things without having properly communicated between teams in the beginning on how those systems may intersect.

    When you build a sandcastle in real life you either a) build above the high tide mark or b) you build so the tide can wash it away. Your choice, not the tide. :)
  • TriplisTriplis Posts: 3,048 Member
    sawdust wrote: »
    When you build a sandcastle in real life you either a) build above the high tide mark or b) you build so the tide can wash it away. Your choice, not the tide. :)
    I mean, you're describing how you handle the fact that you're building on a fundamentally unstable area. This game really isn't that different from such a framing. It's when you have no idea where the tide is and what it looks like that your experience is most likely to be upsetting. I remember early in TS4's life, the first time I had an important relationship culled (I believe a high romance - this was before they improved culling to try to exclude important relationships, I assume). It was not fun, I can tell you that. I did get a better sense of where the boundaries are though. Not that I should have had to, but if we're going to focus on an analogy about sandcastles, well there you go.
    Mods moved from MTS, now hosted at: https://triplis.github.io
  • sawdustsawdust Posts: 1,003 Member
    Triplis wrote: »
    sawdust wrote: »
    When you build a sandcastle in real life you either a) build above the high tide mark or b) you build so the tide can wash it away. Your choice, not the tide. :)
    I mean, you're describing how you handle the fact that you're building on a fundamentally unstable area. This game really isn't that different from such a framing. It's when you have no idea where the tide is and what it looks like that your experience is most likely to be upsetting. I remember early in TS4's life, the first time I had an important relationship culled (I believe a high romance - this was before they improved culling to try to exclude important relationships, I assume). It was not fun, I can tell you that. I did get a better sense of where the boundaries are though. Not that I should have had to, but if we're going to focus on an analogy about sandcastles, well there you go.

    I get what you're saying and I believe you are correct when you say "this game really isn't that different from such a framing (ie unstable area)". And therein, imo, lies the problem. The moment I read that the Sims would be emotion driven I suspected this game would be a mess because that's what happens in real life when people are motivated by their emotions. It's why the Sims are all the same. Being sad, angry whatever, is the same for all. What prompts those emotions are different according to our traits but the emotion itself? Is the same. Unfortunately emotions are manipulated by events and/or objects so we see Sims with opposite traits being affected the exact same way. I can remember in Sims 3, Sunset Valley, down at the main street complex (you know where the Cinema etc were). A big fight broke out between two Sims. Everyone reacted differently to it. The evil and dare devil type Sims cheered, the good Sims did the hands over the mouth thing and were horrified and the cowards ran away but you felt like you were among real people as each reacted differently. Even in Sims 2 I can recount many times when I felt like they were little humans and I had trouble losing them or getting rid of them, even the ones I didn't like. Sims 4? I don't care at all. I am constantly going into world manager and deleting Sims that serve no purpose or I just don't like the look of. I am just not connected to any of them like I was in prior games.

    Half the time the emotions don't even make sense. Awhile back I thought I'd give the game another go so created my two favourite Sims and started playing. At one stage they went on a holiday to Granite Falls for about 3 days. When they got back my male Sim came home from work all that following week "tense" with the moodlet saying "he needed a holiday". I kept yelling at him "you just had one ya good for nothing so and so" but it didn't make a difference he'd come home tense the next day too. ;) The point being there was nothing happening to warrant it. At least when my Sims 3 Sims got jaded it was because I forced them to get that last point to max out a skill. "Too bad ya hunger and sleep and fun level are in the red, you'll get that darn point first and then you can celebrate" (or collapse, whichever comes first >:) ).

    Ah well, no point bleating. The game is what it is. I think I could adapt to the different way the game plays if the Sims themselves were as individual as they were in past iterations but unfortunately they're not. Although, 3 more ways to watch my Sim sit at a computer to make a living is a bit hard to take. They could have made freelance bartenders or dog trainers or as I saw one Simmer say recently introduce nectar making again, but ... sigh... there ya go. (shrug)

    I'll have to go check out what mods you're making as I will be in need of some a bit later on. :)
  • FreezerBunnyCowplantFreezerBunnyCowplant Posts: 3,957 Member
    edited April 2019
    Then why is Sims 2 and Sims 3 literally more deep in gameplay?

    The Sims themselves are pretty, but lack any type of character or differentiation. There are no zodiac signs or favorites. They only have 3 traits and traits are watered down compared to Sims 3. In Sims 3 they used to have all these little side effects, like Daredevil Sims getting an bonus when writing Auto-Biography books or Diva Sims being better at Singing.

    The worlds are so small and you can't really explore them. Most is just fake buildings. In Sims 3 you could find all these little spots around the world and had many lots. In Sims 2 you had a bunch of lots you could visit and explore.
    a256aFi.gif
  • LaneBoy1995LaneBoy1995 Posts: 133 Member
    The worlds are so small and you can't explore them. In Sims 3 you could find all these little spots around the world and had many lots. In Sims 2 you had a bunch of lots you could visit and explore.

    Even better... in both TS2 and TS3 I CAN put more lots by myself. I can EDIT worlds!
    This feature would sound futuristic if The Sims 4 was from 2004 or something

  • fruitsbasket101fruitsbasket101 Posts: 1,530 Member
    sawdust wrote: »
    Triplis wrote: »
    So what does this have to do with the "nothing matters" problem and short-term memory loss? Like the literal sandbox, the sandbox of this game is often just sand. It is shaped as you shape it. It is perceived as you have shaped it and from the angle you're peering at it from. Despite its ineptitudes, it's still a functional Lump of Clay, providing an object that you can shape and play with, provided you are willing to do some imagining and molding.

    It is at this point I disagree and why I don't like this game. You can't shape the game the way you want because of the many "EA overrides" that are out of the players hands. Things like set neighbourhood styles with no ability to edit. NPC spawnings whether you want them in your game or not. (don't go to the bar on alien or ghost night if you don't want them in your game). Vampires, you'd think it be enough to delete the pre-made ones but no, EA continue to insist on creating vampires in your hood. I spent over a year building every lot in 3 worlds, my friend created the Sims for me and I downloaded Sims I wanted from the Gallery as NPC's. I tweaked each and every one giving them the skills needed to do the NPC jobs like gardener, mixologist etc. Within 24 Sim hours, 50% of my NPC's had been eliminated and EA had created theirs and put them in game, the majority of which were single elders or adults. Within another 24 Sim hours, Sims I had in houses were seen serving at bars or spas and when asked, were unemployed. So you can imagine and mold as much as you like but EA will stomp on your sand castle the minute your back is turned. :(

    The Sims themselves? They all behave the same. I can't even remember who's who half the time. They don't distinguish themselves. In Sims 2 and 3 there were always those Sims you loved or hated. It doesn't matter what traits you give them in Sims 4 as your "good" Sims are just as liable to give a "rude intro" or "troll teh forums" as your "evil" Sims. And when you ticked someone off in Sims 3, they stayed ticked off and you had to work to repair the relationship. Sims 4? Insult someone one minute and give them a friendly hug the next. Eazy peazy, lemon squeezy! Your actions mattered in Sims 2 and 3!

    I don't play now except to test my builds or test certain bits of game play. My stomach ties in knots when I finish a build knowing I will have to deal with dumb and dumber Sims. I have had to turn off free will in order to maintain some form of sanity. (something I thought I would never, ever do!)

    If I had a dollar for every time I said to my Sims... "why are you doing that?" ... "where are you going now?" ... "will you just sit at the plum table and eat your food!" ... "the kid's asleep, why are you sitting on their bed to eat your dinner?" ... "I told you to go there/do this, why are you just standing there?" (invariably that's because someone has just entered the neighbourhood and decided to speak to my Sim. Wish I could broadcast my intention that far. >:) ) ... "will you please "sit and chat" where I tell you and not get up fifty million times and change chairs." ... "stop looking at the salt and pepper shakers and eat your plum food" ... "I got ready for work in 20 minutes, why cant' you do it within 2 hours?" ... "are you still in the shower?" ... this list does not include all the "Doh!", "Ugh", "Nooooo" and general head slaps because of the stupid and/or childish things that happen in this game.

    "You Rule!" ??? Complete joke. In any other company it would be considered false advertising.

    I'm on my last hoorah with this game. Currently redoing Willow Creek in my favourite medieval/fantasy style of gameplay, have bulldozed every other lot in all the other worlds and I will mod this game to the hilt to stop all the EA overides as much as possible. I want to love this game, I really do but as it is, I find it frustrating, boring and shallow.

    At this stage, if they do have a Sims 5? It will require some major gameplay overhaul and some genius marketing to get me to even look at it. I can't even believe I'm saying this as the Sims has always been my No.1 equal favourite franchise of all the games I have ever played in my 20 years of gaming. Sims 4 has literally reduced me to tears. If we were married? I'd be applying for a divorce and I don't even believe in divorce! So sad. :(

    Omg yes! I just recently reinstalled the game and was so exasperated by this that I played it for two days and then uninstalled it again. I can't stand having to tell them to do something over and over only to have them completely ignore you. I've said since the beginning that the whole "you rule" thing was false advertisement. It makes me sad cause this game had so much potential and they just wasted it. As far as the sims 5 is concerned, if they do make one, it will take a lot of overhaul and convincing to get me to even consider buying it as well.
    Have a super fantastic awesome splendid amazing day! -TheQxxn
  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    edited April 2019
    The game is sandbox, but a good sandbox has some water to be able to mold and shape it. Sims 4 is just sand, no water. Sand that’s just constantly slipping through your fingers. We need this:

    giphy.gif

    Not this:

    sandGIF_03.gif
    5JZ57S6.png
  • sawdustsawdust Posts: 1,003 Member
    I like your analogy @JoAnne65. The game does feel that way indeed. :)
  • simgirl1010simgirl1010 Posts: 35,709 Member
    edited April 2019
    Triplis wrote: »
    The brain can only process so many things at a time and the game can throw many of them at you in a small space. Emotions, whims, achievements, aspirations, satisfaction points, reward traits and potions, skills, ranked skills, quirks, perks, reward traits, cas traits, character values, weight and muscle change, aging, interaction queues, needs, object quality, environmental hazards (ex: fire), environmental changes (ex: dirty dishes, weather), careers, career goals, career rewards/unlocks, weather-aware outfits, temperature changes, thermostats for addressing temperature changes, audiovisual changes (ex: sim turning on music autonomously), things that require persistent attention to what a sim is doing to make them do it (ex: queuing up an interaction and it failing).

    I wanted to respond before reading any of the other comments. This is exactly how I feel when playing. Sometimes to the extent that it all seems a bit overwhelming. I've been playing since The Sims and this is the first version where I occasionally move all but one of my sims to another household in order to concentrate on the one. As much as I love it sometimes I'll delay loading the game because there's so much I want to do but can't decide where to start. Right now I'm actually feeling a tiny bit of anxiety because we'll probably get a new release in June and I'm not ready. In addition to the features you mentioned above I don't think I'm adequately utilizing the club and calendar features. Also, for the first time I find myself having to use lists to keep up with with things like food stall offerings, experimental foods, and other recipes, harvestables and when they're active/dormant, and since we have the ability to move within worlds I have to keep a list of which lots are in which worlds. And the true test for me of a more absorbing game. I can no longer watch tv while playing. :p The game demands all of my attention.

    ETA: Have completed reading the other comments and I think one of the reasons I don't experience the 'all sims feel the same syndrome' is because I focus on one household and their related sims so its not as evident in my gameplay. I do see how playing lots of households would result in a feeling of less individuality.
  • CinebarCinebar Posts: 33,618 Member
    Triplis wrote: »
    The brain can only process so many things at a time and the game can throw many of them at you in a small space. Emotions, whims, achievements, aspirations, satisfaction points, reward traits and potions, skills, ranked skills, quirks, perks, reward traits, cas traits, character values, weight and muscle change, aging, interaction queues, needs, object quality, environmental hazards (ex: fire), environmental changes (ex: dirty dishes, weather), careers, career goals, career rewards/unlocks, weather-aware outfits, temperature changes, thermostats for addressing temperature changes, audiovisual changes (ex: sim turning on music autonomously), things that require persistent attention to what a sim is doing to make them do it (ex: queuing up an interaction and it failing).

    I wanted to respond before reading any of the other comments. This is exactly how I feel when playing. Sometimes to the extent that it all seems a bit overwhelming. I've been playing since The Sims and this is the first version where I occasionally move all but one of my sims to another household in order to concentrate on the one. As much as I love it sometimes I'll delay loading the game because there's so much I want to do but can't decide where to start. Right now I'm actually feeling a tiny bit of anxiety because we'll probably get a new release in June and I'm not ready. In addition to the features you mentioned above I don't think I'm adequately utilizing the club and calendar features. Also, for the first time I find myself having to use lists to keep up with with things like food stall offerings, experimental foods, and other recipes, harvestables and when they're active/dormant, and since we have the ability to move within worlds I have to keep a list of which lots are in which worlds. And the true test for me of a more absorbing game. I can no longer watch tv while playing. :p The game demands all of my attention.

    ETA: Have completed reading the other comments and I think one of the reasons I don't experience the 'all sims feel the same syndrome' is because I focus on one household and their related sims so its not as evident in my gameplay. I do see how playing lots of households would result in a feeling of less individuality.

    Sounds more like it has too many directives and not a enough sandbox. Too many FX things popping up like texts and notices, too many goals, instead of sandbox, too much grind to succeed. No randomness of life thrown into the mix where someone grinding away would have to get off the hampster wheel and live a little and deal with 'life' instead of goaling. It's focus is on goals, and to me that's where it fails to reflect life and or what happens in life, and why nothing you do in this game matters unless you want to fill every goal they keep adding. That's not The Sims, that's a quest game in Sim disguise. Not saying people shouldn't fill goals if they want, but that's all that is ever added. If it was about the Sim, the Sim would have memories, and remember, and the player could look at that memory and remember what happened two weeks ago. Not even the picture taking memory system was a memory system, it's a way to goal by using a picture to bring on a mood. The premise of the game is so lack luster, grindy in the long run, it's hardly worth the name of TS4.
    "Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
  • drake_mccartydrake_mccarty Posts: 6,114 Member
    I have always felt the (many) task based things in the game are there to give players something to do when the game itself isn’t enough. I don’t focus my attention on those things for the most part so my boredom doesn’t stem from being overwhelmed by the tasks, but more a general blandness from the game. I find a lot of it to be repetitive and predictable, and at it’s core I think it’s just a very easy game. The other games, I feel, required more of my input and attention than Sims 4. Sims 4 is more casual, you just make Sims, build their perfect house, and go interact with Sims/objects. It sounds simple and for it is that simple. There’s really no depth to any of those activities, at least I don’t think so. As a game, Sims 4 fails for me. As a program to take screenshots and tell stories it works pretty well, but that’s not what I ever played Sims for.
  • simgirl1010simgirl1010 Posts: 35,709 Member
    Cinebar wrote: »
    Triplis wrote: »
    The brain can only process so many things at a time and the game can throw many of them at you in a small space. Emotions, whims, achievements, aspirations, satisfaction points, reward traits and potions, skills, ranked skills, quirks, perks, reward traits, cas traits, character values, weight and muscle change, aging, interaction queues, needs, object quality, environmental hazards (ex: fire), environmental changes (ex: dirty dishes, weather), careers, career goals, career rewards/unlocks, weather-aware outfits, temperature changes, thermostats for addressing temperature changes, audiovisual changes (ex: sim turning on music autonomously), things that require persistent attention to what a sim is doing to make them do it (ex: queuing up an interaction and it failing).

    I wanted to respond before reading any of the other comments. This is exactly how I feel when playing. Sometimes to the extent that it all seems a bit overwhelming. I've been playing since The Sims and this is the first version where I occasionally move all but one of my sims to another household in order to concentrate on the one. As much as I love it sometimes I'll delay loading the game because there's so much I want to do but can't decide where to start. Right now I'm actually feeling a tiny bit of anxiety because we'll probably get a new release in June and I'm not ready. In addition to the features you mentioned above I don't think I'm adequately utilizing the club and calendar features. Also, for the first time I find myself having to use lists to keep up with with things like food stall offerings, experimental foods, and other recipes, harvestables and when they're active/dormant, and since we have the ability to move within worlds I have to keep a list of which lots are in which worlds. And the true test for me of a more absorbing game. I can no longer watch tv while playing. :p The game demands all of my attention.

    ETA: Have completed reading the other comments and I think one of the reasons I don't experience the 'all sims feel the same syndrome' is because I focus on one household and their related sims so its not as evident in my gameplay. I do see how playing lots of households would result in a feeling of less individuality.

    Sounds more like it has too many directives and not a enough sandbox. Too many FX things popping up like texts and notices, too many goals, instead of sandbox, too much grind to succeed. No randomness of life thrown into the mix where someone grinding away would have to get off the hampster wheel and live a little and deal with 'life' instead of goaling. It's focus is on goals, and to me that's where it fails to reflect life and or what happens in life, and why nothing you do in this game matters unless you want to fill every goal they keep adding. That's not The Sims, that's a quest game in Sim disguise. Not saying people shouldn't fill goals if they want, but that's all that is ever added. If it was about the Sim, the Sim would have memories, and remember, and the player could look at that memory and remember what happened two weeks ago. Not even the picture taking memory system was a memory system, it's a way to goal by using a picture to bring on a mood. The premise of the game is so lack luster, grindy in the long run, it's hardly worth the name of TS4.

    I like the goal oriented aspect of the game. :) When I speak of so much I want to do I'm thinking about something like starting the acting career, not the actual mechanics of the career. But the sim I have in mind for the career is still a teen and there are teen things I still want to experience with her. But right now she's staying with her dad in another household while I concentrate on finishing up the stylist career with her mom. Which is something I'll have to delay because I had the mom quit in order to try out the freelancer career. :p

    And as someone who micromanages my game I really don't care for randomness and the unexpected.
  • Noree_DoreeNoree_Doree Posts: 1,470 Member
    edited April 2019
    How is a tide washing anything away when this is a sandbox? If we want to see things literally here, This isn't the beach where the sand is open and the tide can come in and wash what you build away. Were talking about a sandbox game, the idea of an isolated area. A place where the person within the sandbox can manipulate the sand how they'd like without worry of something or someone coming in and destroying it and if you look at previous games that's how it was. Now as I see it, with the sims 4, we are give a semi open Sandbox with prebuilt sandcastles and Eaxis is standing over us watching every move able to come and go freely whilst dropping off extra, sand buckets and shovels we didn't ask for as we try to manipulate our sandbox the way we want. And if something isn't the way that it was prebuilt its stomped on and were back to square one of a never ending cycle. So unless they come out and say this isn't a sandbox game in fact they want it to be more of an open sand filled area (Like a beach) a lot would make sense to why the game functions the way it does.


    ETA: Have completed reading the other comments and I think one of the reasons I don't experience the 'all sims feel the same syndrome' is because I focus on one household and their related sims so its not as evident in my gameplay. I do see how playing lots of households would result in a feeling of less individuality.

    I do not rotate play either. I only stick with one household, however when any of my sims are interacting with sims outside of the household, whether it be at the park, restaurant, bar, etc. I notice that a lot of sims do the same things and act the same ways. I mean you're lucky that you dont experience it. But its an eye sore to me. I've even delete all premades and filled my homes with sims with so many different trait combinations and still I get the same thing.
    "Bada su the gorn bada su the brawn bada bady oda aba donk donk donk gerbits gerbits vo gerbits".
  • simgirl1010simgirl1010 Posts: 35,709 Member
    I guess I just don't focus much on background Sims. I can honestly say I've never been aware of other sims all acting the same when out and about.
  • fruitsbasket101fruitsbasket101 Posts: 1,530 Member
    How is a tide washing anything away when this is a sandbox? If we want to see things literally here, This isn't the beach where the sand is open and the tide can come in and wash what you build away. Were talking about a sandbox game, the idea of an isolated area. A place where the person within the sandbox can manipulate the sand how they'd like without worry of something or someone coming in and destroying it and if you look at previous games that's how it was. Now as I see it, with the sims 4, we are give a semi open Sandbox with prebuilt sandcastles and Eaxis is standing over us watching every move able to come and go freely whilst dropping off extra, sand buckets and shovels we didn't ask for as we try to manipulate our sandbox the way we want. And if something isn't the way that it was prebuilt its stomped on and were back to square one of a never ending cycle. So unless they come out and say this isn't a sandbox game in fact they want it to be more of an open sand filled area (Like a beach) a lot would make sense to why the game functions the way it does.


    ETA: Have completed reading the other comments and I think one of the reasons I don't experience the 'all sims feel the same syndrome' is because I focus on one household and their related sims so its not as evident in my gameplay. I do see how playing lots of households would result in a feeling of less individuality.

    I do not rotate play either. I only stick with one household, however when any of my sims are interacting with sims outside of the household, whether it be at the park, restaurant, bar, etc. I notice that a lot of sims do the same things and act the same ways. I mean you're lucky that you dont experience it. But its an eye sore to me. I've even delete all premades and filled my homes with sims with so many different trait combinations and still I get the same thing.
    This.
    Have a super fantastic awesome splendid amazing day! -TheQxxn
  • Kniga_SitaraKniga_Sitara Posts: 414 Member
    it's a sandbox. but bad sandbox. it is shallow, only a few cm. and sand is dry ... a good sandbox is deep and full of wet sand ... so that one can dig, drown, or build up high ... but what about TS4? only small piles of dry sand, the wind is blowing right away ...
  • texxx78texxx78 Posts: 5,657 Member
    sawdust wrote: »
    Triplis wrote: »
    So what does this have to do with the "nothing matters" problem and short-term memory loss? Like the literal sandbox, the sandbox of this game is often just sand. It is shaped as you shape it. It is perceived as you have shaped it and from the angle you're peering at it from. Despite its ineptitudes, it's still a functional Lump of Clay, providing an object that you can shape and play with, provided you are willing to do some imagining and molding.

    It is at this point I disagree and why I don't like this game. You can't shape the game the way you want because of the many "EA overrides" that are out of the players hands. Things like set neighbourhood styles with no ability to edit. NPC spawnings whether you want them in your game or not. (don't go to the bar on alien or ghost night if you don't want them in your game). Vampires, you'd think it be enough to delete the pre-made ones but no, EA continue to insist on creating vampires in your hood. I spent over a year building every lot in 3 worlds, my friend created the Sims for me and I downloaded Sims I wanted from the Gallery as NPC's. I tweaked each and every one giving them the skills needed to do the NPC jobs like gardener, mixologist etc. Within 24 Sim hours, 50% of my NPC's had been eliminated and EA had created theirs and put them in game, the majority of which were single elders or adults. Within another 24 Sim hours, Sims I had in houses were seen serving at bars or spas and when asked, were unemployed. So you can imagine and mold as much as you like but EA will stomp on your sand castle the minute your back is turned. :(

    The Sims themselves? They all behave the same. I can't even remember who's who half the time. They don't distinguish themselves. In Sims 2 and 3 there were always those Sims you loved or hated. It doesn't matter what traits you give them in Sims 4 as your "good" Sims are just as liable to give a "rude intro" or "troll teh forums" as your "evil" Sims. And when you ticked someone off in Sims 3, they stayed ticked off and you had to work to repair the relationship. Sims 4? Insult someone one minute and give them a friendly hug the next. Eazy peazy, lemon squeezy! Your actions mattered in Sims 2 and 3!

    I don't play now except to test my builds or test certain bits of game play. My stomach ties in knots when I finish a build knowing I will have to deal with dumb and dumber Sims. I have had to turn off free will in order to maintain some form of sanity. (something I thought I would never, ever do!)

    If I had a dollar for every time I said to my Sims... "why are you doing that?" ... "where are you going now?" ... "will you just sit at the plum table and eat your food!" ... "the kid's asleep, why are you sitting on their bed to eat your dinner?" ... "I told you to go there/do this, why are you just standing there?" (invariably that's because someone has just entered the neighbourhood and decided to speak to my Sim. Wish I could broadcast my intention that far. >:) ) ... "will you please "sit and chat" where I tell you and not get up fifty million times and change chairs." ... "stop looking at the salt and pepper shakers and eat your plum food" ... "I got ready for work in 20 minutes, why cant' you do it within 2 hours?" ... "are you still in the shower?" ... this list does not include all the "Doh!", "Ugh", "Nooooo" and general head slaps because of the stupid and/or childish things that happen in this game.

    "You Rule!" ??? Complete joke. In any other company it would be considered false advertising.

    I'm on my last hoorah with this game. Currently redoing Willow Creek in my favourite medieval/fantasy style of gameplay, have bulldozed every other lot in all the other worlds and I will mod this game to the hilt to stop all the EA overides as much as possible. I want to love this game, I really do but as it is, I find it frustrating, boring and shallow.

    At this stage, if they do have a Sims 5? It will require some major gameplay overhaul and some genius marketing to get me to even look at it. I can't even believe I'm saying this as the Sims has always been my No.1 equal favourite franchise of all the games I have ever played in my 20 years of gaming. Sims 4 has literally reduced me to tears. If we were married? I'd be applying for a divorce and I don't even believe in divorce! So sad. :(

    "Your actions mattered in Sims 2 and 3". This! There are no consequences in the game. Like OP states, too much variables that at the end drive all sims into the same place.
  • SerraNolwenSerraNolwen Posts: 731 Member
    I don't think the problem is rooted in cognitive overload. There aren't too many things competing for my attention in this game and I sure wouldn't want devs to think they need to remove even more stuff from the game. Sims 1 was fun when I was a kid, but I can handle more than that. I loved sims 3 and would still play it a lot more if it didn't crash or bug in unacceptable ways so often. It had just as many systems to pay attention to if you had all the expansions, and that never really bothered me. Impermanence... yes.

    I think the problem lies mostly in lack of consequences, as others have said as well as you, in a way, and repetition. Those are tied together. Lack of consequences comes from some systems not interacting enough or some systems (emotions) taking over everything else. Often emotions will override traits in deciding how your sim will act and what they want to do, taking away the weight of some of our choices. They override places and events, making sims go jogging or do push-ups when they are supposed to meet their family or visiting a museum, just because they are energized. Emotions have also sort of replaced memories, so now, if two sims fight, they will be generally angry for a few hours, but they will basically be angry at everyone, and once they have gotten rid of the moodlet or simply overriden it with happy moodlets, it is all forgotten and they can happily joke around with the person they just had an argument with...

    This contributes to repetition : sims often feel very similar despite you making different choices, since most of the time given events or activity will give them all the same emotions and whims, making them act similar in the end despite different traits and experiences and despite your wish to give them varied interests. Repetition also comes from checklists. In events, life-time wishes and careers, your sims have to accomplish the same goals no matter their traits or interests, which means once you've tried doing the career once, it will mostly be the same the next time. You get less choice than in previous iterations. Dates have to go through certain steps, and other choices you make barely matter (you kissed before it was on the list? that doesn't change how your date went). All your entertainer sims will have to learn an instrument and some humor, despite one being mostly a music lover and a loner, and the other being a clumsy oddball, for example. In Sims 3 (just for an example of what I mean), my sims could climb the ranks because they were skilled, but some less skilled sims could achieve it simply by making enough friends with coworkers or doing the tasks their boss gave them. There were many different ways in which you could achieve something. Similarly, with long-term wishes, in Sims 4, all sims will have to go through all the same steps in the same order, for the most part.

    I don't look at moddlets much because I've seen most of them very often, so I just glance at them once in a while and read the new ones that are triggered by new dlc content. That's not a big problem, really, but the thing that does show a problem is the other reason why I don't look at them: in the end, only the strongest emotion matters. That sad moodlet has no effect as long as it is burried under happy moodlets, so I dont really need to pay much attention to it unless I haven't done anything to make my sim happy in quite a while. I didn't go looking for whims much because there are always some whims that come back too often (buying toys because they have a pet, watching the City Living tv channels, meeting new people, despite your sim being a loner or having a ridiculous amount of acquaintances). Meanwhile, sims get fairly few whims truly pertaining to their traits or long-term wishes. That makes it so that, again, sims don't feel distinct enough from one another.
  • SimburianSimburian Posts: 6,907 Member
    edited May 2019
    @Triplis I agree with what you say and this particularly...…...

    "This could sound like a compliment, like the game is so complex and deep that it's hard to understand, but I don't think it's that. I think the game is complex and deep in its diversity of playstyles it interfaces with, but I don't think the design itself is particularly deep. This leads me to the idea that the driving contributor to the feeling of being opaque and hard to understand is that the game is an amalgamation of characteristics that are at odds with each other and don't quite fit in the same space. Like pieces of many jigsaw puzzles rammed together into a single shape."

    I have always hoped by buying more packs that they would all fit like a jigsaw puzzle but it is as if all the bits are the wrong shape and don't fit properly. You don't get many interactions between packs as they come out so there is no advantage in buying all of them. You might as well just buy one expansion and stuff packs. I feel that it is because they are made by separate teams and there have been too many changes and layoffs of staff too soon.
    Post edited by Simburian on
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