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Why do we hate on TS4?

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  • ScobreScobre Posts: 20,665 Member
    edited December 2017
    @Vraie I actually like some of your posts and always nice to have different points of views with a discussion, so I hope that you don't stop posting. I think the initial post saying you like the Sims 4 on forums and reaction received back does come as a shock at first. I've experienced it myself. I've had people tell me given time I'll grow to hate the Sims 4 too. I said if it happens it happens, but not got to let others influence me either way. I've never hated the Sims 4 actually. I think there are extremes said on these forums that you must love or hate the Sims 4 otherwise you aren't accepted on forums. I'm ok with not being accepted and different. I can't say I feel either extreme with the Sims 4 and nothing wrong with having mixed feelings about a game either I think. Just keep true to yourself. Yes online sadly anywhere there is a need to grow some thick skin because every community has their own version of trolls. But I hope you find a group of friends that you enjoy talking about the Sims with. Deep down the Sims community is still neat and there are still creative Simmers out there. I think it does help to expand horizons than to just the Sims forums or Twitter, but to meet Simmers elsewhere too. The Twitch community is very welcoming and if you have a discord, this is the BobSquad discord link: https://discord.gg/EsjD3AN It started off as an idle stream in December last year in which Bob Pancakes and Eliza Pancakes and a butler nicknamed Boozy and later Bob's daughter nicknamed Boo all were stuck in this fishbowl locked in a house with the yule log. Since then Eliza was drowned by SimGuruSteve who runs the streams and nicknamed Ewwliza. It is just silly fun to watch, so you are welcome to join it and same with anyone else who wants a fun place to discuss the Sims without all the political nonsense.
    Post edited by Scobre on
    “Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
  • aricaraiaricarai Posts: 8,984 Member
    @Vraie and anyone else: if you haven't watched this, I highly recommend it:

    https://youtu.be/E7HwKKyUecs

    It could provide a little insight.
  • ShadowmarkedShadowmarked Posts: 1,054 Member
    edited December 2017
    JoAnne65 wrote: »
    .
    Vraie wrote: »
    I;ve found some of the responses on here interesting since I posted earlier and then went back to (attempting) to write my (very annoying) thesis chapter...

    In regards to the direct insults and such, others have explained so much better than I can what inspired me to post in that vein. The person I quoted has also a track record of jumping on people who support TS4 or criticise TS3 without actually reading their posts or finding out all the facts. I responded in that way to that person on those grounds, because I think their particular approach is problematic and they can create misunderstandings over it. I don't actually think most people in this thread are intending to attack fans of either game. But there is a genuine atmosphere of struggle at times and it makes me sad. I want to just play TS4. I don't care about the politics of it. I also don't want anyone who hates TS4 to feel like they should be made to love it by a forum that's all positives towards TS4 and no criticism. But I think it can and does go too far and becomes too factional. And I think there's a small minority of people who go around looking for threads where someone is discussing something about TS4 and then they jump in to say how horrible that feature is because it isn't the same as in TS3. It's NOT the majority, but those people exist. And we are letting those people behave like that, and that is what is making TS4 fans more defensive than they need to be in threads like this one, where mostly people are just answering the question asked by the OP. I certainly feel there are few safe spaces to discuss good things about TS4 without the fear of someone jumping in to sabotage the discussion. I never even thought of that happening when I joined this forum, so that's not something I've invented as a preconceived idea. It's something that I've learned from experience reading and posting here. And it does make it a lot less pleasant in general.

    Personally, I would like to be able to share my sim stories properly. But because there's always so much negativity about the possibilities for storytelling in Sims 4 (which is entirely subjective, by the way, from person to person, and not a 'fact'), I have essentially given up. I don't want to make a thread, only to see it disappear into chaos because someone has a real bee in their bonnet about one aspect of the game and can't let it go. I know I shouldn't feel that way, and that's a biased way of thinking and expecting trouble, but I can't help it. I do. So I don't post those kinds of things. But it makes me sad, because when I played Sims 2, years ago, I not only posted about stuff like that all the time, I created some legacy concepts and inspired others to join in and had a total blast sharing progress with the community. And I don't feel I can do that here.

    What some of the posts have also indicated is that there are some TS3 fans here who DO feel betrayed by EA over TS4. I am sort of glad that people are honest enough to express that, because when I suggested it as a reason for the tension, it got shot down as though it was completely ludicrous. I think it makes a lot of sense that fans of TS3's open world would feel that way. And the thing is, people who were fans of TS2 felt that way about TS3, too. That's a bit my point in all of this. The people making the decisions aren't the people playing the games. I feel like we'd get a lot further with improvements, bug fixes etc if we stopped disputing among ourselves what is best and instead started working together more on ideas from ALL old games or none that could be put forward - whether in TS4 going forward or into a new game in the future. The saddest thing is that there are a lot of bugs in TS4 at the moment and they're mostly being ignored when people raise them, as more folk are more interested in this kind of thread than they are in discussing issue fixes. I think as a community we might be sabotaging our own potential to get issues resolved. And ultimately, TS4 players aren't anything to do with what EA decides. Blatantly, or we'd have quicker fixes and EP releases ;) So that frustration I feel sometimes ends up directed in the wrong place.


    I certainly don't hate anyone who likes TS3. I might be wary of certain people based on forum actions, but I don't care what game they prefer to play. I care more about how they treat other people rather than how they treat their digital people, if that makes sense :/


    I have to ask, are you referring to me here? If yes, could you please just tell it to my face instead of turning to others and talk about me? And could you back up what you are claiming there? This “has also a track record of jumping on people who support TS4”? Because that sentence alone makes me doubt you are talking about me, I don’t jump on people who support TS4. Oh well, maybe you’re not talking about me after all, but at the end of the day that doesn’t really matter. Again you are getting personal instead of discussing the game.

    I had nearly identical thoughts to what you just put here. I was a bit confused. Regardless of who they meant, I don't feel like that description fits you.

    Also to the above post, comparison threads, should probably go. I have no issues with comparing games myself, but things always seem to get personal on them.
    Scobre wrote: »
    Gruffman wrote: »

    If I may, there has been ( and still is, to an extent ) an underlying tone on the forums that if you like the Sims4, your ... wrong. It is hard to put into words and it isn't a good feeling yo have. So I can fully understand that sense of "we should be ashamed for liking it". If you do like the Sims4, you do often feel alienated and/or isolated from this community. It is a sad state of affairs, you have to grow a thicker skin or just leave. So, even though it wasn't specifically pointed out in this particular thread ... it has in many others.

    As to the second part ... about how no one in the thread stated they 'hate' sims4. I do find it ironic that it is the threads title. I mean ... it is the whole title of the thread. I find it funny. While the vast majority has said their disappointments, there was this on why it was hated.


    Go play what you want to go play. Don't play what you don't want to go play. In the end, no one cares one way or the other.

    I don't think you are wrong for liking the Sims 4. I think that is the problem just with Twitter and forums and even on fan sites is that everything is so black and white that there is a right and wrong about everything without accepting there is space in between as well and that people come in all shapes and forms instead of the Facebook generalizations. Like you are only right and allowed to post on forums if you like the Sims 4 while ignoring that Sims forums is made of multiple Sims games now. From my own experience, I was told I was wrong regardless how I felt about the Sims 4 whether I liked it, had a bad day with it with bugs, whether I got bored with it, whether I was ok with it. There is no winning over people sometimes so best to let them be unhappy in their own insecurities. I just learned not to give a plum about it because people will always find an excuse to belittle others for whatever dumb reason that day because I think as it was explained by someone from another community, the Sims may be their only identity or way to communicate with other. I was like wow, that is true especially when I saw that happen with a fan site. Many Simmers have actually told people that they want forums isolated and that you must think this way in either direction to be allowed to post here. I don't think it is right. No one should feel shamed for posting or have their integrity put into question. I feel like even if I do suggest ideas for the Sims 4, it is shot down right away because people will automatically say it will slow down their computers. So why I think the Sims 4 five years is enough. If people are complaining and tearing out ideas now, it gets discouraging even talking about the Sims 4 by people who play the game too. But thank you for being one of those Simmers I can share ideas with that won't let the Sims 4 be stunted for the sake of performance.
    I feel like the above bonded points are key to remember anywhere on the Internet.
    Generalizations= someone getting offended, avoid these at all costs. A wide range of people have access to what you write meaning odds are many people who don't fit the label given will see it. On the other hand we have forum rules not allowing us to specify certain users, making it hard to even use direct examples, so one might use a vague generalization to express their frustration. I would suggest however it is better to report and take note of the individual rather than carry that on for latter.

    Second bold= Your always going to be wrong in someone's opinion, maybe even a large amount of someone's. It is the problem with opinions they are always wrong to someone.

    Final bold= Welcome to the Internet.
    Continue with caution as trolls are known to roam in large numbers. If a troll is spotted do not feed or engage with it. Instead back away cautiously and report to the nearest site moderator. Engaging with the trolls may seem harmless at first but can make a site more risky for other users to enjoy.
    Be warned certain threads can be rough. If you can not handle intense discussion and bizzre or nonsensical opinions please stick to an easier thread.
    (the above is meant to be read like a national park sign. Don't feed the bears! :D )

    Seriously, as @Scobre said before just because one person is acting poorly doesn't mean we are all allowed to be. Be responsible for yourself and your actions try to be decent. A majority of us don't want any conflict.

    Edit: to give scobre credit for their words. :)
    Post edited by Shadowmarked on
  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    @BeJaWa Thank you :)
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  • ScobreScobre Posts: 20,665 Member
    edited December 2017
    BeJaWa wrote: »
    I feel like the above bonded points are key to remember anywhere on the Internet.
    Generalizations= someone getting offended, avoid these at all costs. A wide range of people have access to what you write meaning odds are many people who don't fit the label given will see it. On the other hand we have forum rules not allowing us to specify certain users, making it hard to even use direct examples, so one might use a vague generalization to express their frustration. I would suggest however it is better to report and take note of the individual rather than carry that on for latter.

    Second bold= Your always going to be wrong in someone's opinion, maybe even a large amount of someone's. It is the problem with opinions they are always wrong to someone.

    Final bold= Welcome to the Internet.
    Continue with caution as trolls are known to roam in large numbers. If a troll is spotted do not feed or engage with it. Instead back away cautiously and report to the nearest site moderator. Engaging with the trolls may seem harmless at first but can make a site more risky for other users to enjoy.
    Be warned certain threads can be rough. If you can not handle intense discussion and bizzre or nonsensical opinions please stick to an easier thread.
    (the above is meant to be read like a national park sign. Don't feed the bears! :D )

    Seriously, I didn't notice who said it here but just because one person is acting poorly doesn't mean we are all allowed to be. Be responsible for yourself and your actions try to be decent. A majority of us don't want any conflict.
    Oh that was me that said that and I agree.

    @aricarai Thanks for sharing that video. It showed a lot of the things I've come to like and a few things I dislike over the years. It also mentioned what I said earlier that what happened with SimCity I think has caused some effect with the Sims in terms of trust and whether or not something will be delivered. I think at this moment the thing I want most that has been there since day one of the Sims especially as a builder are terrain and pond tools. Being that the Sims is supposed to be a life simulation game, I had trouble for the first three years not being able to simulate my family without toddlers in the mix. Right now I'm unable to simulate my house due to there not being pond or terrain tools or any form of transportation yet. I have a pond, my house is on a hill, and the city I live in is pretty big hard to get anywhere without the use of any form of transportation. I think when it comes to the Sims it is a mix of both fantasy and reality. So there are some aspects of my own life I'd like in the game, some aspects I would like a fantasy portrayal on like a superhero pack with rocket wheelchairs, and some aspects from media like supernaturals I like portrayed in with stories. So yes it isn't as simple as black and white, I want a mix of everything and all colors and everything in between. Sims 4 especially when it first came out felt like I was looking at a black and white canvas which I guess you can kind of see with a lot of the color options in the game are more monochrome based. It is a theme that the Sims 3 Into the Future portrayed in the Utopian world. For me I liked the Dystopian world better with that pack. I like seeing grudge, I like seeing color, and I like seeing various forms of life. So hopefully someday the scope of the Sims 4 will broaden out more before the development of this iteration ends, otherwise I will have to see a more diverse game with the next iteration. There are some things like making vampires both evil and good and in between and the gender update that I think helped bring more diversity into the game. Packs are starting to bring in more diverse hair styles too. I remember talking about that with SimGuruKimmi the need for textures for hairs. I guess it is the thing only time will tell and it is nice to reflect back on the past with Maxis to see where they will go in the future. I've been playing the Sims games for 15 years now, so I won't be going away. It is like once you got a taste of the Sims there is no going back, it becomes an addiction. :)

    Thanks for making this thread @alexandrea. I think it is good that people are speaking up for themselves about the Sims in it. Reminds me of a thread we had a few years ago in which everyone came together to talk about the Sims 4. It was really neat how we bonded over music in it.
    Post edited by Scobre on
    “Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
  • StormsviewStormsview Posts: 2,603 Member


    Yes, you're in the right place, forum.thesims.com. Only readers beware This is The Sims forum
    But this forum is basically, in my opinion,
    ( there I said my protective words, duly notes) But this forum is basically, in my opinion, Anti- EA, its Anti-Maxis, and Anti-Sims 4. If you love Sims 4 If you Love Cats & Dogs, best to stay out of trouble and keep it to your self, and go play kiss the avatar or some other simple game, or you just may end up losing your right to be on this forum, you may be lied on, or set up if you Protect EA or Maxis or If you Protect Sims 4 or even as simple as enjoying the New EP Cats & Dogs and letting everyone know you like the game. why would they rather you hang onto one of those faded roses from years gone by. In my opinion, They have moved an army in here to destroy and sabotage EA Maxis from the inside until they hope it crumbles under the weight of their hate.
    You will not be protected,? I am not protected. I love Cats & Dogs EP, I love that they are Non-playable, its fun and like having real pets.
    EA and Maxis Did a Wonderful Perfect Job on the New EP. I stand in applause to them EA and Maxis. a Standing ovation Its as perfect as an EP can get. <3
    we'll give you a full refund. Just make sure you make your request within 24 hours after you first launch the game, within seven days from your date of purchase, or within seven days from the game's release date if you pre-ordered, whichever comes first.
    Who said EA doesn't have a sense of humor
  • cosmiccccosmiccc Posts: 32 Member
    > @Stormsview said:
    I love Cats & Dogs EP, I love that they are Non-playable, its fun and like having real pets.

    I understand that, however, what is the point of making you not be able to control your pet for realism purposes, when there a a bunch of other things in the game that are unrealistic. And not just things you can do that are unrealistic, also things you can't do/have. It ranges from things like not being able to have a landline to things like not being able to go shopping for clothes, or experience school/most of the jobs. My overall point is, the sims isn't meant to be realistic or unrealistic totally. It has always been a hybrid of the two. So EA saying that [example] is unrealistic, is probably just as an excuse to leave it out of the game unfortunately.
  • ScobreScobre Posts: 20,665 Member
    edited December 2017
    @Stormview Actually if it wasn't for comments like that I wouldn't have joined forums. It actually helped joining the Sims community with a smaller community like forums too. I've seen first hand how someone can call themselves the biggest fan of the Sims 4 in all the Sims community, yet be anti-EA/Maxis and anti-Sims community so much so that they attacked personal accounts, Twitter, forum walls of both Guru and Simmer alike with death threats and told to quit EA. Even Sims 4 fans aren't perfect and have their own qualms about the Sims 4 and at times with the Gurus. Like the ball pit got a lot of hate and that was just a cosmetic issue. Get to Work is getting a lot of hate now so much so that players are wishing the pack would never have been created yet when someone mentions anything they don't like about the Sims 4 even if it is a bug, it is deemed wrong and negative just because that person identifying themselves as a so-called fan didn't say it first. Part of me thinks maybe one of the problems with the Sims 4 is the same problem facing Sims forums. In both cases people want happy happy happy rainbow and sunshine only where nothing bad happens. I think forums are good because they show the reality of what life is really like that things aren't perfect and get messy at times and yes you do have to problem solve and may fail at times. Sure the Sims 4 does the simulation part, but the "life" aspect of the simulation has been taken away with this iteration. So no I don't want the Sims games or forums censored like whatever weird thing is going on with media today that only "rich" or "popular" people deserve to have a voice on the internet just because they think they are more important than everyone else. The Sims is a popular franchise period made up unique Simmers all over the world coming from all sorts of backgrounds. I've seen people complain about this year because they didn't get any of the packs that they personally wanted. Face it we all want the Sims to have the features we can personally relate to. I'm glad you can relate to the Sims 4 and yes I do like Cats and Dogs, but it does have its share of bugs too just like Get to Work. I don't know why this world has to be so competitive about everything. But Simmers are free to fight among themselves for the remaining less than two year lifespan of the Sims 4. It will just give other so-called nobodies like me the opportunity to get ideas shared with the Gurus despite the Romeo and Juliet drama. So yay family play is better now, next challenge is build mode ideas.
    Post edited by Scobre on
    “Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it.” –Helen Keller
  • CupcakeWitchCupcakeWitch Posts: 542 Member
    edited December 2017
    I don’t know how many time people have to say “they don’t hate TS4” or that they actually “enjoy TS4” so that the critiques don’t get confused as hate.
    Stormsview wrote: »
    They have moved an army in here to destroy and sabotage EA Maxis from the inside until they hope it crumbles under the weight of their hate.
    fqu4sa5aygha.gif

    Funny joke...

    ETA: if Cats &Dogs Aden your fav EP good for you. I personally like GetTogether


    tumblr_m5yfcmiKZM1r6uev5.gif

  • StrawberryYogurtStrawberryYogurt Posts: 2,799 Member
    Stormsview wrote: »
    But this forum is basically, in my opinion, [/b]( there I said my protective words, duly notes) But this forum is basically, in my opinion, Anti- EA, its Anti-Maxis, and Anti-Sims 4. If you love Sims 4 If you Love Cats & Dogs, best to stay out of trouble and keep it to your self, and go play kiss the avatar or some other simple game, or you just may end up losing your right to be on this forum, you may be lied on, or set up if you Protect EA or Maxis or If you Protect Sims 4 or even as simple as enjoying the New EP Cats & Dogs and letting everyone know you like the game. why would they rather you hang onto one of those faded roses from years gone by. In my opinion

    tenor.gif

    I can only hope this is a troll...

    The Sims has currently lost its identity. Bring it back for TS5

    FixedCoarseFawn-max-1mb.gif

    Personality,depth,humor,consequences,lore,customization.
  • ErpeErpe Posts: 5,872 Member
    Erpe wrote: »
    This is what I too expected originally because it happened whith other game series which I have played. But I had to realize that this isn’t at all what EA has been doing whith the Sims games and I think that TS4 has made it even more clear than ever before because TS4 instead simplified many things and omitted others.



    I believe (i guess in the theory since im unsure if its confirmed) is that it was supposed to be an online game so it was oversimplified, but after a lot of backlash from simcity back in '14 they scrapped the idea and tried to use what resources they already had to make the game. Which is why it started off so barebones like a mobile game.

    On the other hand it has been a good introduction to sims as a life simulator for new players, getting used to the routine of making characters, balancing needs, building etx.

    Nevertheless, with TS5 they'll know better than releasing an empty game.
    I know that EA considered TS4 to have online options as its main new feature. But I don’t buy the idea that EA is so unprofessional that they throw everything away and just simplified the game because they ran out of time. EA is actually the most professional and efficient game company ever when it comes to marketing, planning and making games profitable. So I am quite sure that EA knew very well what they were doing!

    To make TS4 a pure online game (like the Sims Freeplay and the Sims Mobile) would have been such an awful bad idea that I don’t believe for a minute that EA really planned to do it that way! But many games can be played both offline and offline which I therefore am sure was what EA considered. But the important and profitable thing for EA still was to be able to sell a huge number of expansions to mainly new simmers and EA couldn’t really find a good way to combine this with the online options. So in the end the online options were dumped except for the options with Origin and the cloud.

    But both the online considerations and the simplifications were clearly made with the very young new teen simmers in mind because EA knows how important it is for them to be able to play with their friends and get a game that is easy, simple and happy. Also EA knew very well that this wasn’t at all what the forum wanted. But EA just chose to ignore the forum to be able to target the game as much as possible at new young teen simmers (especially young girls) because this group has always bought most of the Sims games.
  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    @aricarai That video is amazing!
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  • JoAnne65JoAnne65 Posts: 22,959 Member
    Stormsview wrote: »

    Yes, you're in the right place, forum.thesims.com. Only readers beware This is The Sims forum
    But this forum is basically, in my opinion,
    ( there I said my protective words, duly notes) But this forum is basically, in my opinion, Anti- EA, its Anti-Maxis, and Anti-Sims 4. If you love Sims 4 If you Love Cats & Dogs, best to stay out of trouble and keep it to your self, and go play kiss the avatar or some other simple game, or you just may end up losing your right to be on this forum, you may be lied on, or set up if you Protect EA or Maxis or If you Protect Sims 4 or even as simple as enjoying the New EP Cats & Dogs and letting everyone know you like the game. why would they rather you hang onto one of those faded roses from years gone by. In my opinion, They have moved an army in here to destroy and sabotage EA Maxis from the inside until they hope it crumbles under the weight of their hate.
    You will not be protected,? I am not protected. I love Cats & Dogs EP, I love that they are Non-playable, its fun and like having real pets.
    EA and Maxis Did a Wonderful Perfect Job on the New EP. I stand in applause to them EA and Maxis. a Standing ovation Its as perfect as an EP can get. <3
    The odd thing about this, is that many people who consider themselves pro EA and cheer every decision EA makes for Sims 4, feeling bad for them when there’s any kind of backlash, often completely slate Sims 3. As if it was made by another company ;) Regretting a certain direction in this franchise doesn’t equal hating EA. I don’t hate Sims 4 and I don’t hate the boys and girls at EA. In fact I bless them after eight years of enjoying myself with one single game (enjoying being an understatement for being completely hooked). Someone said it before in this topic, the fact many of us are still vocal about this actually shows love, not hate.
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  • JMConceptJMConcept Posts: 123 Member
    I take a few months off from this site and I see people are still running through burning forests to defend this would-be mobile game.

    You need to realize that not every player is the same. We're all individuals so it only makes sense that we have different reasons for playing the sims. TS4 came 5 years after TS3 so of course it's gonna have a more advanced AI/sims. A better question would be whether these new advancements makeup for the hundreds of missing features that many of us that "hate on TS4" can't live without. I'm not gonna list these features because i've already done so in numerous threads along with hundreds of others chiming in showing how lackluster TS4 is compared to TS3.

    Yes TS3 wasn't coded well but it says a lot how a game being developed from 2009-2013 is being compared to a 2014-onward game. Funny how EA thought they would profit off of casual gamers with trashy computer specs when that same audience is too broke/uncommitted to buy EA's numerous irrelevant and unsold expansion packs for TS3. Sims 3 with all expansions and plenty of CC runs smooth as butter on my $600 desktop (and never crashes) so if someone with a $1500 macbook is crying about their game freezing then they need to go back to playing farmville.
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  • VraieVraie Posts: 196 Member
    aricarai wrote: »
    @Vraie and anyone else: if you haven't watched this, I highly recommend it:

    https://youtu.be/E7HwKKyUecs

    It could provide a little insight.

    Ok, I did watch it, but I am sort of confused about why that was tagged towards me?

    When I said I wanted to know about TS3, I meant I wanted to know about the experiences of people who play it, in discussion, in a friendly kind of space where people share stuff and talk about it and so on. I like hearing about other people's gameplay. That's all. It doesn't matter to me what game that's from. I just like to see how other people play and what games they like and how that works for them in the concepts they are playing. I think that's the thing I miss from this forum - it's there sometimes, but too often it gets torn down by negative remarks.

    If it's not been clear though, I feel I should reiterate, I have been playing the sims since the start of the franchise, pretty much. I played sims 1, with its weird kids that never became adults and the babies that went from baby to child.

    I remember waiting for TS2 to come out with anticipation. I remember getting every single EP, mostly on the release date. Waiting for them to install with the silly on screen match game and so on. I remember sharing game news with a friend, we'd post online, we'd get custom content, we'd find mods to do stuff, there was the program you could download through which you could basically edit anything outside of the game relating to your sim because every sim had its own file, rather than being collectively in the game file like it is now. I remember the constantly spawning townie child Marsha, and all the different things we did to her - killed her off, grew her up...till she became pretty much a meme in her own right (because in TS2 if you started a new game you got all the SAME random townies). I remember the three brothers in their little house in the desert neighbourhood and that one of them was already alien-pregnant when you loaded the game, so you could play aliens without needing an abduction. I remember my first full scale crash and losing two alien sims that I was attached to - Estelle and Luna, I think their names were. I STILL remember that, all these years on, because I took an age trying to get them to function again (in the end i did, but they lost their alien genes and their family links :'( ) I remember setting up legacies to breed aliens with blond and red hair, because folk said it was impossible. I remember the bug issues, and sims getting stuck in walls, and basically all those discussion-y things that happened then is kind of how I imagined this place would be now, only with more because of more games. I remember that TS2 was a long way from perfect, but I still loved it, and so did a lot of people, because it was fun. I still have all the EPs. I had to buy the base game twice because I played it so much my disk broke o.O. I was a hardcore TS2 fan and I still consider myself that way. I don't play games in general. Sims is the only game in English I have ever played, and the only game franchise I have ever been really committed to. So I'm not a gamer, but the concept of this game hooked me from the start.

    I didn't play TS3 because my PC didn't work with it right. The one PC as I said, almost died because of it, the other made the sims bald. I hated that so I stopped playing. But I was still playing TS2 when TS3 came out. I saw the reactions to it, the comments by people then. Some loved the new setup, some didn't, it was pretty much like the divide here now, but I don't remember it being quite as long-lasting. There doesn't seem to be hostility now towards TS2 from TS3 fans or vice versa, which means that basically people just got on with the game they loved or could play.

    Because I couldn't play TS3, I missed out on what EPs it had, and I dropped out of the sim community pretty much after around 2012. I only started playing TS4 this summer, because I finally had a machine that was my own and that could support the game. I did remember when it came out that there was a lot of negative energy towards massively important game elements being missing, such as the toddlers and so on. But at the point I started playing it (which was from the demo trial on Origin), it was fine for me, as a player.

    I've never insulted TS3 anywhere. I have no reason to. I've no negative thoughts towards the game at all. I couldn't play because of technology, not because of anything else. I have absolutely no angle or reason to take up against fans of TS3. And in spite of that I still got attacked for liking TS4 and not playing TS3 right after I joined this forum. That's not what I expect from a fan of the same franchise as me.

    I like TS4 because it reminds me of the gameplay style of TS2. I know it's not identical to TS2, but as I've said before, that's fine. It has different strengths (eg vampires) and different weaknesses (ie it doesn't have memories). I can pretty much accept that though. It's close enough to what I remember having so much fun with when I was younger that I can deal with the bits that are more awkward.

    I still have TS3. I never got rid of it in case one day I had a computer that would play it. But right now, I'm enjoying playing TS4 and I don't want to tax my machine by making it juggle two games instead of one. I don't hate on TS3, my circumstances were just such that at the time it came out, I didn't have either the software or the time to deal with it, and so I dropped away from the community. And now it just so happens that it was TS4 that brought me back here.

    So the history of the franchise, I understand. I lived through it. But I still love TS4. I'm not naive and new. I'm not misguided by other people's stories or the trailers of the game. I genuinely enjoy Sims 4 and probably as much as I have enjoyed TS2 in the past. But if I had had a computer capable of playing it, I would have enjoyed Sims 3 as well. I think that's the thing I wanted to get over most of all. It's not about choosing one over the other. My computer capabilities and my real life situation chose for me. That's why I'd like more discussion about the TS3 game and people sharing their experiences, and less about trying to establish it as superior to or inferior to TS4. All that's kind of irrelevant to me. It sort of doesn't matter what TS3 had if it isn't in TS4, because then it's nothing to do with TS4 and complaining about it isn't going to get that stuff into TS4, it's just going to create bad feeling between fans.

    As for being thick skinned, I've been online a while and I've moderated in communites and I've dealt with a lot worse. I don't feel intimidated by those comments, I feel frustrated. I don't understand why people behave that way towards strangers. Disagreeing is fine, but going all out to attack them because they hold a different opinion is not. I was taught that you always treat the other person in a discussion with the respect you would like to receive from them. And I'm not a teenager, but I'm also not that ancient, either. Those are values that ought to still exist. The problem isn't EA, or TS3, or TS4. It's that people see those as an excuse to attack each other. And that's the thing that sucks.
  • aricaraiaricarai Posts: 8,984 Member
    @Vraie - it wasn't my intention insult you by tagging you in the video, hence why I said and anyone else who hasn't seen it. I thought it might give some insight answering the question that was originally posed by the OP! I only tagged you specifically because we were in discussion, so my apologies if you took that the wrong way.

    I, too, have been around since the beginning of the franchise and I LOVE this video. It gives me feelings of nostalgia and reminds me of things that I may have forgotten over the years. But like someone pointed out previously, if you want to see what others experience in TS3, head over to that section and lurk about in the 'What Happened in Your Game Today' thread. It moves rather quickly but I always love to see others play styles.
  • Evil_OneEvil_One Posts: 4,423 Member
    edited December 2017
    Erpe wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    This is what I too expected originally because it happened whith other game series which I have played. But I had to realize that this isn’t at all what EA has been doing whith the Sims games and I think that TS4 has made it even more clear than ever before because TS4 instead simplified many things and omitted others.



    I believe (i guess in the theory since im unsure if its confirmed) is that it was supposed to be an online game so it was oversimplified, but after a lot of backlash from simcity back in '14 they scrapped the idea and tried to use what resources they already had to make the game. Which is why it started off so barebones like a mobile game.

    On the other hand it has been a good introduction to sims as a life simulator for new players, getting used to the routine of making characters, balancing needs, building etx.

    Nevertheless, with TS5 they'll know better than releasing an empty game.
    I know that EA considered TS4 to have online options as its main new feature. But I don’t buy the idea that EA is so unprofessional that they throw everything away and just simplified the game because they ran out of time. EA is actually the most professional and efficient game company ever when it comes to marketing, planning and making games profitable. So I am quite sure that EA knew very well what they were doing!

    Yeah, it's not like they just casually close down an entire studio dumping a game that'd been in production for a few years, just because they thought people don't like singleplayer games much.

    Oh wait...

    EA has screwed up time and time again, and you still refuse to see it... They ruined the Dead Space series by sticking their nose in, with their insistence on online features which far from being professional or efficiently thought through, just tanked Dead Space 3 and any future games they could've made, they ruined the C&C franchise by transforming C&C Arena into C&C 4, why?, because they didn't give westwood enough time or money to do both C&C 4 and C&C Arena at the same time.

    EA are infamous for ruining games, crashing series and closing what could've been extremely profitable studios, because of their incessant interference.

    How the hell is it, you can't see it?

    raw
  • ErpeErpe Posts: 5,872 Member
    Evil_One wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    This is what I too expected originally because it happened whith other game series which I have played. But I had to realize that this isn’t at all what EA has been doing whith the Sims games and I think that TS4 has made it even more clear than ever before because TS4 instead simplified many things and omitted others.



    I believe (i guess in the theory since im unsure if its confirmed) is that it was supposed to be an online game so it was oversimplified, but after a lot of backlash from simcity back in '14 they scrapped the idea and tried to use what resources they already had to make the game. Which is why it started off so barebones like a mobile game.

    On the other hand it has been a good introduction to sims as a life simulator for new players, getting used to the routine of making characters, balancing needs, building etx.

    Nevertheless, with TS5 they'll know better than releasing an empty game.
    I know that EA considered TS4 to have online options as its main new feature. But I don’t buy the idea that EA is so unprofessional that they throw everything away and just simplified the game because they ran out of time. EA is actually the most professional and efficient game company ever when it comes to marketing, planning and making games profitable. So I am quite sure that EA knew very well what they were doing!

    Yeah, it's not like they just casually close down an entire studio dumping a game that'd been in production for a few years, just because they thought people don't like singleplayer games much.

    Oh wait...

    EA has screwed up time and time again, and you still refuse to see it... They ruined the Dead Space series by sticking their nose in, with their insistence on online features which far from being professional or efficiently thought through, just tanked Dead Space 3 and any future games they could've made, they ruined the C&C franchise by transforming C&C Arena into C&C 4, why?, because they didn't give westwood enough time or money to do both C&C 4 and C&C Arena at the same time.

    EA are infamous for ruining games, crashing series and closing what could've been extremely profitable studios, because of their incessant interference.

    How the hell is it, you can't see it?
    I actually agree that EA is infamous for ruining games. So this isn’t my point at all. But you seem to confuse two things:
    1. EA wants to make games that give EA as much profit as possible.
    2. The gamers don’t care about EA’s profit at all and only want EA to make games that please them as much as possible.

    So EA investigates the market and attempts to make good selling games for as small expenses as possible while the gamers just want EA to add everything - and often even for free such that they don’t have to buy anything.

    What I am saying is therefore that EA is better to earn money on games than all other companies (with maybe at most one or two exceptions) while many other game companies have been much more popular among the gamers because they actually listened and tried to satisfy most of the wishes from the gamers. (But most of those companies either went bankrupt or was bought by especially EA who then often managed to make them profitable too.)
  • VraieVraie Posts: 196 Member
    aricarai wrote: »
    if you want to see what others experience in TS3, head over to that section and lurk about in the 'What Happened in Your Game Today' thread. It moves rather quickly but I always love to see others play styles.

    I've tried, but living in the UK time zone that thread goes way too quickly for me to keep up with any one person's stories. It's very sad :( I have tried. I occasionally get to pick up bits and pieces, but generally, nothing meaningful.

    I think what will have to happen at some point, when I have some time and am not trying to write annoying chapters that won't write themselves, I will have to try and sit down and play TS3 for myself if I can get the PC to cope with that and TS4. I only have those fleeting memories of bald sims and computer crashes really.

    In the meantime, though, I love my sims and I always have. If people want to argue about it then they have problems, but I'm just glad that the Sims is still here after so many years and even if we don't all like the same franchise...we do all still have some part of the franchise we can enjoy because all of them still exist :smiley:

    ...And now I have to go brave the rain. Gah, winter. Why do people want seasons again? ;)

  • Evil_OneEvil_One Posts: 4,423 Member
    Erpe wrote: »
    Evil_One wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    This is what I too expected originally because it happened whith other game series which I have played. But I had to realize that this isn’t at all what EA has been doing whith the Sims games and I think that TS4 has made it even more clear than ever before because TS4 instead simplified many things and omitted others.



    I believe (i guess in the theory since im unsure if its confirmed) is that it was supposed to be an online game so it was oversimplified, but after a lot of backlash from simcity back in '14 they scrapped the idea and tried to use what resources they already had to make the game. Which is why it started off so barebones like a mobile game.

    On the other hand it has been a good introduction to sims as a life simulator for new players, getting used to the routine of making characters, balancing needs, building etx.

    Nevertheless, with TS5 they'll know better than releasing an empty game.
    I know that EA considered TS4 to have online options as its main new feature. But I don’t buy the idea that EA is so unprofessional that they throw everything away and just simplified the game because they ran out of time. EA is actually the most professional and efficient game company ever when it comes to marketing, planning and making games profitable. So I am quite sure that EA knew very well what they were doing!

    Yeah, it's not like they just casually close down an entire studio dumping a game that'd been in production for a few years, just because they thought people don't like singleplayer games much.

    Oh wait...

    EA has screwed up time and time again, and you still refuse to see it... They ruined the Dead Space series by sticking their nose in, with their insistence on online features which far from being professional or efficiently thought through, just tanked Dead Space 3 and any future games they could've made, they ruined the C&C franchise by transforming C&C Arena into C&C 4, why?, because they didn't give westwood enough time or money to do both C&C 4 and C&C Arena at the same time.

    EA are infamous for ruining games, crashing series and closing what could've been extremely profitable studios, because of their incessant interference.

    How the hell is it, you can't see it?
    I actually agree that EA is infamous for ruining games. So this isn’t my point at all. But you seem to confuse two things:
    1. EA wants to make games that give EA as much profit as possible.
    2. The gamers don’t care about EA’s profit at all and only want EA to make games that please them as much as possible.

    So EA investigates the market and attempts to make good selling games for as small expenses as possible while the gamers just want EA to add everything - and often even for free such that they don’t have to buy anything.

    What I am saying is therefore that EA is better to earn money on games than all other companies (with maybe at most one or two exceptions) while many other game companies have been much more popular among the gamers because they actually listened and tried to satisfy most of the wishes from the gamers. (But most of those companies either went bankrupt or was bought by especially EA who then often managed to make them profitable too.)

    But EA isn't better, they're chiefly supported by special contracts with their EA sports division... The games they can just repeat over and over again, they kill golden goose after golden goose in all other areas, decimating potentially tens of millions in revenue, because they just can't keep their noses out.

    Dead Space, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Dungeon Keeper, C&C (this one could've kept going forever), to name just a few.

    Most of the companies you mention weren't bought out because they went bankrupt or didn't make profits, they were aggressively pushed out of the market and then grabbed by EA, who then leeched off of them and discarded them when EA's interference crashed them.

    If EA lost all of their sports division contracts, they'd crash and burn entirely, it's the only thing keeping them up.
    raw
  • ErpeErpe Posts: 5,872 Member
    Evil_One wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    Evil_One wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    Erpe wrote: »
    This is what I too expected originally because it happened whith other game series which I have played. But I had to realize that this isn’t at all what EA has been doing whith the Sims games and I think that TS4 has made it even more clear than ever before because TS4 instead simplified many things and omitted others.



    I believe (i guess in the theory since im unsure if its confirmed) is that it was supposed to be an online game so it was oversimplified, but after a lot of backlash from simcity back in '14 they scrapped the idea and tried to use what resources they already had to make the game. Which is why it started off so barebones like a mobile game.

    On the other hand it has been a good introduction to sims as a life simulator for new players, getting used to the routine of making characters, balancing needs, building etx.

    Nevertheless, with TS5 they'll know better than releasing an empty game.
    I know that EA considered TS4 to have online options as its main new feature. But I don’t buy the idea that EA is so unprofessional that they throw everything away and just simplified the game because they ran out of time. EA is actually the most professional and efficient game company ever when it comes to marketing, planning and making games profitable. So I am quite sure that EA knew very well what they were doing!

    Yeah, it's not like they just casually close down an entire studio dumping a game that'd been in production for a few years, just because they thought people don't like singleplayer games much.

    Oh wait...

    EA has screwed up time and time again, and you still refuse to see it... They ruined the Dead Space series by sticking their nose in, with their insistence on online features which far from being professional or efficiently thought through, just tanked Dead Space 3 and any future games they could've made, they ruined the C&C franchise by transforming C&C Arena into C&C 4, why?, because they didn't give westwood enough time or money to do both C&C 4 and C&C Arena at the same time.

    EA are infamous for ruining games, crashing series and closing what could've been extremely profitable studios, because of their incessant interference.

    How the hell is it, you can't see it?
    I actually agree that EA is infamous for ruining games. So this isn’t my point at all. But you seem to confuse two things:
    1. EA wants to make games that give EA as much profit as possible.
    2. The gamers don’t care about EA’s profit at all and only want EA to make games that please them as much as possible.

    So EA investigates the market and attempts to make good selling games for as small expenses as possible while the gamers just want EA to add everything - and often even for free such that they don’t have to buy anything.

    What I am saying is therefore that EA is better to earn money on games than all other companies (with maybe at most one or two exceptions) while many other game companies have been much more popular among the gamers because they actually listened and tried to satisfy most of the wishes from the gamers. (But most of those companies either went bankrupt or was bought by especially EA who then often managed to make them profitable too.)

    But EA isn't better, they're chiefly supported by special contracts with their EA sports division... The games they can just repeat over and over again, they kill golden goose after golden goose in all other areas, decimating potentially tens of millions in revenue, because they just can't keep their noses out.

    Dead Space, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Dungeon Keeper, C&C (this one could've kept going forever), to name just a few.

    Most of the companies you mention weren't bought out because they went bankrupt or didn't make profits, they were aggressively pushed out of the market and then grabbed by EA, who then leeched off of them and discarded them when EA's interference crashed them.

    If EA lost all of their sports division contracts, they'd crash and burn entirely, it's the only thing keeping them up.
    The owners of those other companies usually wouldn’t have sold their companies if the companies weren’t in economic troubles and the reason why EA began to buy other companies at all was that EA in the beginning just was a publisher who earned a lot of money on publishing games for other companies. But EA of course therefore didn’t like it when some of those companies went bankrupt while some of the other companies were struggling because EA needed their games to publish. So EA started buying those companies to rationalize and improve their economy such that EA still would have their games to publish,

    I agree that EA’s sports games have been the most successful games generally. But the huge sales numbers for the Sims games and all their expansions have made those games extremely profitable too - and especially now where EA mainly make cheap SPs and GPs which are much cheaper to make than the earlier big EPs were. (EA therefore didn’t need help from the Salt Lake Studio anymore and closed that studio down.)
  • keekee53keekee53 Posts: 4,328 Member
    The Sims 4 was an accumulation of bad decision making, bad leadership, and absolutely terrible community awareness.

    Why does Sims 4 get hate? Well hate is a strong word, so I will say heat instead. A lot of people throw heat toward Sims 4 because in many ways it failed to live up to the expectations people had for it. Coming off of Sims 3 it was a massive mistake to axe essentially all features introduced in that game. Maxis knew that very well which is why they used an incredibly manipulative, condescending, and in some cases misleading marketing strategy to minimally promote the game while keeping 90% if it in the dark.

    I remember when everyone at SimsCamp In 2013 told Maxis CASt was a huge exclusion, and Maxis said to be loud about it because it wasn’t off the table. They kept that up for nearly a full calendar year until they were forced to show off the game which was still incredibly lacking and had no CASt. Their rational changed entirely there too. Said it wasn’t possible unless it was planned from the beginning. That, in my opinion, was just one of the acts the company did to string players along and force interest into a product players were vocally against.

    I question if "bad" is the right word, to be honest. Bad decisions happened for sure but....

    Look at Star Wars in the news lately. Did EA change their pay-to-win business model? No, they simply tripled the rate that people would earn the better characters. Now instead of 40 hours to unlock one character, it's 13. Now instead of 4000 hours to unlock everything without money, it's 2000. It's still a ridiculous amount of time, it's still a sleazy practice, and at the end of the day....? They made bank on the people that were willing to pay then, now some people consider them "the nice guys" for toning it back period and buy in as a reward, and even if another outrage occurred causing them to drop the system one month from now, they STILL made profit off of the attempt.

    Sometimes I wonder if....we sit here and say they make bad decisions or don't listen. Sometimes I wonder if perhaps they actually make fantastic decisions....it's just that the goal of their decisions isn't customer satisfaction, but rather profit. I mean if you polled people on if they want more Stuff packs or EPs, EPs would win by a clear mile, yet they continue with the Stuff pack spam. The Stuff packs have effectively replaced the second EP (four stuff packs per year = $40) and yet they're much cheaper to produce, so it's a net gain for them. Perhaps it's naive to think they're so blind that they don't realize we hate the stuff packs, and perhaps instead they just don't care.

    Problem then is that the only language the company understands is money. Want them to change their practices? Don't buy their stuff. Sadly though, look at the community. I think if you polled the community right now and asked how many of us own Cats and Dogs for example....? I definitely feel in the overwhelming minority when I say I don't own it, and a lot of others with harsh words for the game do. Sometimes people have a difficult time restraining themselves, and that definitely seems to be the case with the Sims community, so I'm not sure we could hope for the community to vote with their wallets.

    AGREE to everything. Battlefront proved everything I already knew about this company. Even my beloved Bioware games have suffered due to EA money grab.

    I would definitely like to see at least two EPs a year. It is what we are used to getting but they keep giving us Stuff packs. Even went as far as to allow us to help create a stuff pack which caused more disagreements. Eco Living, the living on the land art style and then laundry. I am happy to see laundry added to the game but the pack in general doesn't make sense to me anymore..lol

    I don't currently own Cats and Dogs because I refuse to pay full price for it. I will wait for a 50% off sale or something. I know the pack is probably only worth $20 for me. I want the world not because it is nice looking, but I need the space...how sad is that? I never had space issues in 2 or 3 sheesh. I try to limit my Sim families to one child per couple because of space issues. I like the CAS items and some of the build items. The cats and dogs look cute but I don't know if I want to bother because I can't see their needs. I don't want to control the pets but I like to make sure their needs are being taken care of. I also wanted Vet to be a open career like doctor, scientist or detective. I don't want to have to open my own animal hospital. Why couldn't I just work in one?
  • ApparentlyAwesomeApparentlyAwesome Posts: 1,523 Member
    Okay, I'm still confused. No one said here has said they hated the game. Did I skip over a post or something? You can be critical and still like or tolerate a game. Some of us, even the people who love TS4 and find no flaws with it, have been around since previous games and like or love this franchise as a whole. And like others have said, if we hated this game we wouldn't be here. I don't think there's some great plot in theses forums to bring down The Sims 4, EA, and Maxis, although I do have some concerns from a few people who vehemently defend all three which I'll get to in a minute.

    Some of the players that have "attacked" The Sims 4 are TS2 fans, some of us are fans of both, maybe one more than the other, but the thing is we feel TS4 could and should be better. Someone mentioned before how it's full of potential and possibilities and that took me right back the base game release when there were so many simmers around here saying how much potential there is in this game, and that yeah, it started off troubled but give it time. Some of those players have given up on it and it's rare when we ever see them around here, if they still do come here because TS4 has turned them off completely and they'd been playing since TS2 or TS1. And even though we may try to get into The Sims 4, most of us just go back to old faithful, whichever iteration that may be. It's not like what we prefer doesn't still exist, though we may have to go through some things to play them (finding the disc, dealing with Origin when we don't want to, etc.). Do some of us feel betrayed by EA? I think it's very well possible. Especially considering the lies, exclusions, and the lack of good maintenance on games now and in the past. I wouldn't call what I feel betrayal though. It's mostly disappointment. Disappointment, frustration, and confusion. And not just with EA, but with Maxis and The Sims 4.

    I don't think badly of anyone who loves The Sims 4. I don't view them as wrong, having poor taste, or being traitors. I don't think that's quite what we "haters" and/or TS3 fans are getting at. EA and Maxis I'm still a bit questionable on but I wouldn't say bring out the torches and pitchforks and let's take this to the town square. I don't know if my fellow "haters" who also happen to be fans of The Sims 3 have had these same thoughts as well, but here's my thoughts on The Sims 4 fans. I think for some of you there is definitely room for improvement in this game and while you may get misconstrued as a hater sometimes or maybe even most of the time, you love this game and you just want it to be better. I think some of you really do love this game and think this is the best iteration of The Sims for your playstyle. I think there are some TS4 fans who have never experienced one, two, or all of the previous games before and they may or may not be curious about what the other ones brought to the table. And then I think there's some of you, and I really want to reiterate the word some not all, but some, that have simply just settled for this game and I'm going to explain why I think that.

    I've read it from different TS4 fans so many times since launch, they want a game that works and this game works. I can't fault them for that, but where I feel like a portion of TS4 fans settled is choosing the ability to function properly over in-depth gameplay instead of choosing both. And it's sad because it shouldn't be either or, you should be able to have both but based on some of the comments I've read here and on other sites, it doesn't seem like some fans think we can have both. They leave this out, they take that away, they break features, they tell everyone this is why these things we want don't work or why we can't have it or they go radio silent and some TS4 fans call EA and Maxis out on it. Other TS4 fans believe it, defend it, and excuse it but they don't question it at all, not even when something happens down the road that seems to contradict what we were originally told. They just find an excuse for it and defend the team and I don't think I've ever seen anything like it before unless I count the fans of the previous games who were just being cheeky. How come sims can carry baby animals around freely but their own babies are still confined to bassinets? How come they decided to take away player's control to provide more believable and realistic pets experience and suddenly realism in TS4 matter when we can't control pets or anyone living with us in real life? It's still hard for me to wrap my mind around the fact that there were people who defended the decision for this game to launch without a lifestage with comments ranging from how they were ensuring the game ran smoothly and ran out of time to 'I don't like them anyway'.

    I probably never would've thought this much about it if it weren't for comments from people who love and arduously defend TS4 saying things like how they had to 'adjust their usual playstyle' or 'find another way to play' in addition to their love of this game running perfectly on their systems, but if you have never actually experienced most gameplay because of some issue(s) or looked up what all you can do in what game, then how can you fairly compare content to say which one is truly better for you? I get it, the game runs well for you, at least for now, and doesn't crash but the fact that it works should not be what makes it great. 'It runs well' as long as you meet the specs is what should be a basic standard for any game, not what makes the game. So if we compared all 4 games content wise, as if no lag or crashes occurred for whatever reason, then which one is the better game for you? Not based on functionality, but gameplay, the way you personally play, your preferences. Some people can still honestly say it's TS4, I'm sure of that, but as sure as I am of that I'm also sure there'd be some TS4 fans who'd say TS3, TS2, even a few who'd say TS1and for some of us I think it's a combination of maybe all of them.

    So here's what I'm getting at. If you would think one, two, three, or all four games have features that are more up your ally even if those feature need some or a whole lot of tweaking, then why not speak up and say what would make your experience better? That's what we "haters" are doing. Why does it seem like some people think that we can't have a well functioning game and great features? In the case of some of the players having game breaking issues in the past and now, it was not and is not their fault they had the issues they had that made the game(s) unplayable for them. They shouldn't have to use mods to be able to play a game the way the creators intended, EA and Maxis should fix the game. Why are so many of us still not demanding that EA and Maxis fix their provided content?
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