One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that I realize that many who stayed with Sims 3 did so because of the vast differences between the two games. I am one of them. TS3 is still my favorite and I'm playing it right now. Just because the games are so different, doesn't make one or the other inferior. Was TS4 inferior at release? Yes, in my opinion, it absolutely was. But I feel it has caught up now in terms of free AND paid content so I can actually play it.
@JoAnne65 The reason why people go over the moon for new colors, is because we understand that this game is like TS2 in that respect, so more swatches are always welcome. Yes, TS3 slays TS4 when it comes to that and many other details, but TS4 also slays TS3 in many other areas. I can't tell you how many frustrating limitations there are in TS3, that I am able to do easily in 4. Just as many limitations frustrate me about TS4, that I am able to do easily in 3. I've learned to accept that they are very different games, and I play them each accordingly.
They've already told us that this game won't have CAST (or open world,) and the reason why. So yes, they are listening when they give us new colors.
Maybe for you it may not matter what version was/is inferior but you only can speak for yourself as I feel overall Sims 3 gave me more fun than the current pack. Yes, Sims 4 has improved over time but all in all it is an gimped version and it is an fact that is known. Yes, Sims 4 is better in some areas which is expected of an new version but at the same time it is not enough for me to be excited about as I was for Sims 2 and Sims 3 when an new pack came out. Going back to loading screens for me is an step back and not forward even if it was brought back to stabilize performance. The program needs constant tweaking for various reasons as each pack brings new problems/bugs. As far as new colors goes it is like waiting for them to give me new neighborhoods which I now have to pay for. EA/Maxis have tried to close Pandora's box but once opened some will always want what was in the previous version as well as the new features. Sims 4 is for me is not above average, it is just okay sometimes and sometimes not okay.
Welp, that goes both ways. I AM speaking for myself, but I'm also speaking for 'many' others who feel the same way. If you don't feel the same, then obviously I'm not talking about you.
Everything I said was my opinion, and you calling TS4 a gimped version is also an opinion, not fact. The thing is, everyone values different things in each game. There are many players who couldn't care less about the issues you've listed for The Sims 4. Because they're not issues for everybody, and that's why they're called opinions.
For the record regarding toddlers, yes, they were always planned to be added into Sims 4. This was stated by Sim Guru Ninja in the Game Pack section of the forums, right around the time Vampires came out. I know this because I was very active in that section at this time, and I was debating this very thing with another player who kept insisting that the uproar of the players was the reason we got them, and that they never would have been created at all if people hadn't rampaged the forums over it. He confirmed that actually toddlers had been planned all along, but nobody was allowed to say anything about it.
It may sound surprising but for me this makes things worse, not better. Leaving sims fans in the dark about something fundamental like this for two and a half years, while they were screaming their lungs out in frustration, it’s genuinely beyond me. Especially, again, when it was literally suggested by the General Manager that toddlers were one of those things sims fans wanted [laughs] (but never played) and that they would keep an eye on the forums to see what people had to say about them missing. Maybe I’m just too old to not see right through it. It’s a Sims game*, you don’t ‘plan’ toddlers. You implement them on release day.
*and yes, I realize the first Sims edition didn’t come with toddlers, but that game had a different focus plus it was the first one
I agree. But we're placing the blame on the wrong people. It's not their fault that they couldn't tell us. In a perfect world, all games would be fully featured upon release. In this case, the game released before it was finished. It should have been pushed back at least until toddlers and pools were ready. Since that didn't happen (and it's the publisher's fault rather than the developers,) they had no choice but to plan toddlers for a later date.
No use crying over spilled milk now; what's done is done. I just hope they learned from this so it won't happen again. A little transparency would have created a calmer, less frustrating atmosphere. But again, these rules are set by the bosses. Not by those who are actually working on the game. *Also, the pesky law that requires free content to be announced within the same quarter.
For the record regarding toddlers, yes, they were always planned to be added into Sims 4. This was stated by Sim Guru Ninja in the Game Pack section of the forums, right around the time Vampires came out. I know this because I was very active in that section at this time, and I was debating this very thing with another player who kept insisting that the uproar of the players was the reason we got them, and that they never would have been created at all if people hadn't rampaged the forums over it. He confirmed that actually toddlers had been planned all along, but nobody was allowed to say anything about it.
That's interesting, and would be more factual than anything I provided, lol. I either missed that conversation, or completely forgot.
*ETA: I forgot. Now that I've re-read it, I definitely remember his statement. He said, "Toddlers are something we've desperately wanted to do since we launched. And for free as a patch too - not paid content."
If I may quote guruNinja... No, let me first start off by saying that when I say 'them', I'm hardly ever referring to developers. Especially not Ninja, who to me comes across as a very friendly, communicative and dedicated dev, who actually adressed some features that people had been missing, thereby in my perception acknowledging those features were indeed missed: matching backdrops, terrain tools and as it turns out, thanks for the links, toddlers. When I say 'them' (and I think that probably applies to the majority of simmers) I'm rather referring to the company. The layer where the decisions are made. So, if I may quote guruNinja here:
Longer explanation:
Toddlers are something we've desperately wanted to do since we launched. And for free as a patch too - not paid content. We felt strongly about that and it was very important to us. It took time to get everything in order (balancing SP, GP, EP, and free content development simultaneously is no easy task. It's actually quite challenging). Simple as that.
That actually wouldn't have been necessary if they'd implemented them from the get go, like they did two times before. Simple as that.
And of course, from his perspective ("... today we now have free toddlers because of their endless feedback"), the answer to that apparently is: "Respectfully, no." (which in a way is pretty harsh to tell fans you have left hanging for two and a half years, making them believe their feedback actually was necessary (and that they did, no matter their backstage plans and intentions). Though it's interesting to scroll a bit further and see someone quoting this tweet in return:
For the record regarding toddlers, yes, they were always planned to be added into Sims 4. This was stated by Sim Guru Ninja in the Game Pack section of the forums, right around the time Vampires came out. I know this because I was very active in that section at this time, and I was debating this very thing with another player who kept insisting that the uproar of the players was the reason we got them, and that they never would have been created at all if people hadn't rampaged the forums over it. He confirmed that actually toddlers had been planned all along, but nobody was allowed to say anything about it.
It may sound surprising but for me this makes things worse, not better. Leaving sims fans in the dark about something fundamental like this for two and a half years, while they were screaming their lungs out in frustration, it’s genuinely beyond me. Especially, again, when it was literally suggested by the General Manager that toddlers were one of those things sims fans wanted [laughs] (but never played) and that they would keep an eye on the forums to see what people had to say about them missing. Maybe I’m just too old to not see right through it. It’s a Sims game*, you don’t ‘plan’ toddlers. You implement them on release day.
*and yes, I realize the first Sims edition didn’t come with toddlers, but that game had a different focus plus it was the first one
I agree. But we're placing the blame on the wrong people. It's not their fault that they couldn't tell us. In a perfect world, all games would be fully featured upon release. In this case, the game released before it was finished. It should have been pushed back at least until toddlers and pools were ready. Since that didn't happen (and it's the publisher's fault rather than the developers,) they had no choice but to plan toddlers for a later date.
No use crying over spilled milk now; what's done is done. I just hope they learned from this so it won't happen again. A little transparency would have created a calmer, less frustrating atmosphere. But again, these rules are set by the bosses. Not by those who are actually working on the game. *Also, the pesky law that requires free content to be announced within the same quarter.
Like I said I fully agree with you there, I'm not blaming developers, or specific people for that matter (someone seemed to entirely blame Rachel Franklin a couple of days ago and I don't buy that either, I can't imagine this comes down to a person). I don't even know how things work in the gaming industry and quite frankly, I don't care. I'm the (paying) consumer. A consumer who potentially can be totally addicted to their franchise but I'm stuck in the past with my addiction now. For players like me there's nothing left but crying over the milk they spilled, because it completely ruined the carpet and people like me say: "Stop trying to scrub out the stains and the smell and please get us a brand new carpet. Without spilling milk this time around.
p.s. I don't think we fully disagree on this subject by the way, the topic I mean. If I may repeat my initial reply:
I certainly think they're listening (because they clearly have over the last couple of years) but there are two problems:
They have their own agenda and their own ideas for this game, and that doesn't always correspond with what a lot of players want. Apparently it does correspond with what enough players want though, so there's no reason for them to change direction. Strangerville is a good example of this. So is MFP.
Some changes are simply not possible for the game. Like, I've noticed they have listened to complaints about the many loading screens and the neighborhoods being so tiny. There is a huge difference between the first worlds and the later ones. They are just not able to deliver everything open the way we were used to. I think they meet players' wishes as much as they can, but it must be possible and it must be doable.
This also in reply to "They've already told us that this game won't have CAST (or open world,) and the reason why. So yes, they are listening when they give us new colors." Of course that is a form of listening, but you can't expect that kind of listening will do it for people. Not because they're spoiled or ungrateful, but rather because it completely misses the point. Adding a black door when someone would love to colour it themself. My reply to the black door:
One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that I realize that many who stayed with Sims 3 did so because of the vast differences between the two games. I am one of them. TS3 is still my favorite and I'm playing it right now. Just because the games are so different, doesn't make one or the other inferior. Was TS4 inferior at release? Yes, in my opinion, it absolutely was. But I feel it has caught up now in terms of free AND paid content so I can actually play it.
@JoAnne65 The reason why people go over the moon for new colors, is because we understand that this game is like TS2 in that respect, so more swatches are always welcome. Yes, TS3 slays TS4 when it comes to that and many other details, but TS4 also slays TS3 in many other areas. I can't tell you how many frustrating limitations there are in TS3, that I am able to do easily in 4. Just as many limitations frustrate me about TS4, that I am able to do easily in 3. I've learned to accept that they are very different games, and I play them each accordingly.
They've already told us that this game won't have CAST (or open world,) and the reason why. So yes, they are listening when they give us new colors.
Maybe for you it may not matter what version was/is inferior but you only can speak for yourself as I feel overall Sims 3 gave me more fun than the current pack. Yes, Sims 4 has improved over time but all in all it is an gimped version and it is an fact that is known. Yes, Sims 4 is better in some areas which is expected of an new version but at the same time it is not enough for me to be excited about as I was for Sims 2 and Sims 3 when an new pack came out. Going back to loading screens for me is an step back and not forward even if it was brought back to stabilize performance. The program needs constant tweaking for various reasons as each pack brings new problems/bugs. As far as new colors goes it is like waiting for them to give me new neighborhoods which I now have to pay for. EA/Maxis have tried to close Pandora's box but once opened some will always want what was in the previous version as well as the new features. Sims 4 is for me is not above average, it is just okay sometimes and sometimes not okay.
Welp, that goes both ways. I AM speaking for myself, but I'm also speaking for 'many' others who feel the same way. If you don't feel the same, then obviously I'm not talking about you.
Everything I said was my opinion, and you calling TS4 a gimped version is also an opinion, not fact. The thing is, everyone values different things in each game. There are many players who couldn't care less about the issues you've listed for The Sims 4. Because they're not issues for everybody, and that's why they're called opinions.
Hmmm, I am doing the same and I could care less about the non issues they list for as you see it does go both ways and that was my point of my post by the way. Yes, everything I post is an opinion and it is mine alone for what it comes down to is what I want and what I find entertaining to me. This debate has no winners or losers but for me Sims 4 is and will be controversial until it ceases to exist and that is my opinion.
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One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that I realize that many who stayed with Sims 3 did so because of the vast differences between the two games. I am one of them. TS3 is still my favorite and I'm playing it right now. Just because the games are so different, doesn't make one or the other inferior. Was TS4 inferior at release? Yes, in my opinion, it absolutely was. But I feel it has caught up now in terms of free AND paid content so I can actually play it.
@JoAnne65 The reason why people go over the moon for new colors, is because we understand that this game is like TS2 in that respect, so more swatches are always welcome. Yes, TS3 slays TS4 when it comes to that and many other details, but TS4 also slays TS3 in many other areas. I can't tell you how many frustrating limitations there are in TS3, that I am able to do easily in 4. Just as many limitations frustrate me about TS4, that I am able to do easily in 3. I've learned to accept that they are very different games, and I play them each accordingly.
They've already told us that this game won't have CAST (or open world,) and the reason why. So yes, they are listening when they give us new colors.
Maybe for you it may not matter what version was/is inferior but you only can speak for yourself as I feel overall Sims 3 gave me more fun than the current pack. Yes, Sims 4 has improved over time but all in all it is an gimped version and it is an fact that is known. Yes, Sims 4 is better in some areas which is expected of an new version but at the same time it is not enough for me to be excited about as I was for Sims 2 and Sims 3 when an new pack came out. Going back to loading screens for me is an step back and not forward even if it was brought back to stabilize performance. The program needs constant tweaking for various reasons as each pack brings new problems/bugs. As far as new colors goes it is like waiting for them to give me new neighborhoods which I now have to pay for. EA/Maxis have tried to close Pandora's box but once opened some will always want what was in the previous version as well as the new features. Sims 4 is for me is not above average, it is just okay sometimes and sometimes not okay.
Welp, that goes both ways. I AM speaking for myself, but I'm also speaking for 'many' others who feel the same way. If you don't feel the same, then obviously I'm not talking about you.
Everything I said was my opinion, and you calling TS4 a gimped version is also an opinion, not fact. The thing is, everyone values different things in each game. There are many players who couldn't care less about the issues you've listed for The Sims 4. Because they're not issues for everybody, and that's why they're called opinions.
Hmmm, I am doing the same and I could care less about the non issues they list for as you see it does go both ways and that was my point of my post by the way. Yes, everything I post is an opinion and it is mine alone for what it comes down to is what I want and what I find entertaining to me. This debate has no winners or losers but for me Sims 4 is and will be controversial until it ceases to exist and that is my opinion.
I only took issue with you saying that it was a fact. Now you're admitting it is only an opinion. Cool Beans.
@JoAnne65 As for Graham's follow up tweet, feedback comes in multiple forms. I'm sure that our feedback played a role in shaping the toddlers, but the constant yelling for them did not. That's the difference between what Ninja said and what Graham said.
@JoAnne65 As for Graham's follow up tweet, feedback comes in multiple forms. I'm sure that our feedback played a role in shaping the toddlers, but the constant yelling for them did not. That's the difference between what Ninja said and what Graham said.
I think it made a great difference to the care they took with them though. I doubt if they would have been as well done if they were rushed through to get them in the base game.
No, they don't... At times it 'seems' like it, because their releases coincide with what people want, but they don't, ever, listen.
Not even to bug reports.
That's why bugs that've been in the game since the beginning, remain unfixed (even though modders can fix them with ease), why features long requested wall to wall, go unmade.
Unless it's causing increasing anger among the fanbase, in which case threatens profits, they'll ignore everyone completely and go on releasing whatever 'they' want to.
It's costing EA dearly now though, their games are failing, one by one, because they not only don't listen, but they're been at this for so long, they've forgotten how to listen.
One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that I realize that many who stayed with Sims 3 did so because of the vast differences between the two games. I am one of them. TS3 is still my favorite and I'm playing it right now. Just because the games are so different, doesn't make one or the other inferior. Was TS4 inferior at release? Yes, in my opinion, it absolutely was. But I feel it has caught up now in terms of free AND paid content so I can actually play it.
@JoAnne65 The reason why people go over the moon for new colors, is because we understand that this game is like TS2 in that respect, so more swatches are always welcome. Yes, TS3 slays TS4 when it comes to that and many other details, but TS4 also slays TS3 in many other areas. I can't tell you how many frustrating limitations there are in TS3, that I am able to do easily in 4. Just as many limitations frustrate me about TS4, that I am able to do easily in 3. I've learned to accept that they are very different games, and I play them each accordingly.
They've already told us that this game won't have CAST (or open world,) and the reason why. So yes, they are listening when they give us new colors.
Maybe for you it may not matter what version was/is inferior but you only can speak for yourself as I feel overall Sims 3 gave me more fun than the current pack. Yes, Sims 4 has improved over time but all in all it is an gimped version and it is an fact that is known. Yes, Sims 4 is better in some areas which is expected of an new version but at the same time it is not enough for me to be excited about as I was for Sims 2 and Sims 3 when an new pack came out. Going back to loading screens for me is an step back and not forward even if it was brought back to stabilize performance. The program needs constant tweaking for various reasons as each pack brings new problems/bugs. As far as new colors goes it is like waiting for them to give me new neighborhoods which I now have to pay for. EA/Maxis have tried to close Pandora's box but once opened some will always want what was in the previous version as well as the new features. Sims 4 is for me is not above average, it is just okay sometimes and sometimes not okay.
Welp, that goes both ways. I AM speaking for myself, but I'm also speaking for 'many' others who feel the same way. If you don't feel the same, then obviously I'm not talking about you.
Everything I said was my opinion, and you calling TS4 a gimped version is also an opinion, not fact. The thing is, everyone values different things in each game. There are many players who couldn't care less about the issues you've listed for The Sims 4. Because they're not issues for everybody, and that's why they're called opinions.
Hmmm, I am doing the same and I could care less about the non issues they list for as you see it does go both ways and that was my point of my post by the way. Yes, everything I post is an opinion and it is mine alone for what it comes down to is what I want and what I find entertaining to me. This debate has no winners or losers but for me Sims 4 is and will be controversial until it ceases to exist and that is my opinion.
I only took issue with you saying that it was a fact. Now you're admitting it is only an opinion. Cool Beans.
Yes, I am admitting it should have been an opinion however for me the program is still gimped for performance reasons and today when technology is at high that an program like this cannot use features that should bring it to the next level and then I look at Sims 3 and even Sims 2 it utilized features that brought more to the table than Sims 4 and I would never defend an game that lacks so much.
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@JoAnne65 As for Graham's follow up tweet, feedback comes in multiple forms. I'm sure that our feedback played a role in shaping the toddlers, but the constant yelling for them did not. That's the difference between what Ninja said and what Graham said.
I’d like to point at that one crucial word in Graham’s tweet: ‘persistence’
@JoAnne65 As for Graham's follow up tweet, feedback comes in multiple forms. I'm sure that our feedback played a role in shaping the toddlers, but the constant yelling for them did not. That's the difference between what Ninja said and what Graham said.
I’d like to point at that one crucial word in Graham’s tweet: ‘persistence’
I think the "persistence" had more to do with the wait, player patience, and the huge suggestion thread. I also remember seeing a lot of people threatening that, after waiting so long, that toddlers would have to be extremely good or they wouldn't support the game. A lot of faith was lost, yet people stuck around to give feedback and still hoped for them to show. And then they did.
At this point in the game, I don't honestly see how anyone can truly think that toddlers were never going to come if the community didn't speak up. They were announced ahead of launch that they would be included but then were pulled because they couldn't be completed in time. Just that fact alone says that they were always intended, as Ninja stated. But I do think the development time after launch may have turned out even longer than originally planned because, by then, they felt they had to make toddlers worth the wait.
@JoAnne65 As for Graham's follow up tweet, feedback comes in multiple forms. I'm sure that our feedback played a role in shaping the toddlers, but the constant yelling for them did not. That's the difference between what Ninja said and what Graham said.
I’d like to point at that one crucial word in Graham’s tweet: ‘persistence’
At this point in the game, I don't honestly see how anyone can truly think that toddlers were never going to come if the community didn't speak up. They were announced ahead of launch that they would be included but then were pulled because they couldn't be completed in time. Just that fact alone says that they were always intended, as Ninja stated. But I do think the development time after launch may have turned out even longer than originally planned because, by then, they felt they had to make toddlers worth the wait.
Cars were also a feature announced to come before the base game was released before they were cut with toddlers and almost 5 years later we still don't know if they will ever come.
Sims 4 went from "You Rule" to "One of the stories we want you to tell"
@JoAnne65 As for Graham's follow up tweet, feedback comes in multiple forms. I'm sure that our feedback played a role in shaping the toddlers, but the constant yelling for them did not. That's the difference between what Ninja said and what Graham said.
I’d like to point at that one crucial word in Graham’s tweet: ‘persistence’
I think the "persistence" had more to do with the wait, player patience, and the huge suggestion thread. I also remember seeing a lot of people threatening that, after waiting so long, that toddlers would have to be extremely good or they wouldn't support the game. A lot of faith was lost, yet people stuck around to give feedback and still hoped for them to show. And then they did.
At this point in the game, I don't honestly see how anyone can truly think that toddlers were never going to come if the community didn't speak up. They were announced ahead of launch that they would be included but then were pulled because they couldn't be completed in time. Just that fact alone says that they were always intended, as Ninja stated. But I do think the development time after launch may have turned out even longer than originally planned because, by then, they felt they had to make toddlers worth the wait.
But I don’t think toddlers were never going to come, I actually think they were meant to be in there from the very beginning (I think guruGrant spoke the plain truth when he declared a year prior to the game release ‘all life stages would be in’ in an interview, almost in a ‘duhuh’ kind of tone, as (indeed @ChadSims2 ) he said cars would be in), but then some things changed - which had everything to do with the game all of a sudden not going to be multiplayer - and they had to fully focus on other things. So choices had to be made and toddlers were put on hold and cars were thrown out. I don’t believe for one minute though they were delayed because they felt they had to make them ‘worth the wait’. Like guruNinja said, it took a lot of time and sweat because they had to implement them in an already existing game, ‘it took time to get everything in order (balancing SP, GP, EP, and free content development simultaneously is no easy task’. And I could also imagine that if there wouldn’t have been such an outrage (in such a persistent way), they quite possibly would have made the decision that toddlers weren’t going to be in ever. On release day that may have very well been open (and it also may very well be possible some developers were as dissatisfied with that by the way as fans were). If the fans would have been fine with it, why bother.
The instant outrage and the perseverance may very well have been a reason for EA to decide at a very early stage to indeed do everything to add them. And I still don’t find it very chique, whatever the reason, to keep silent about it. And to literally suggest that toddlers were just one of those things fans want and this whole telemetry nonsense (suggesting fans actually didn’t care for them, they just thought they did or whatever). I’m sure to some extent they weren’t allowed to, but at the same time I can’t help noticing they love the riddle and mystery and shock surprise marketing method these days. Which gave birth to this “are they listening” vibe and hyping atmosphere among fans.
@JoAnne65 As for Graham's follow up tweet, feedback comes in multiple forms. I'm sure that our feedback played a role in shaping the toddlers, but the constant yelling for them did not. That's the difference between what Ninja said and what Graham said.
I’d like to point at that one crucial word in Graham’s tweet: ‘persistence’
At this point in the game, I don't honestly see how anyone can truly think that toddlers were never going to come if the community didn't speak up. They were announced ahead of launch that they would be included but then were pulled because they couldn't be completed in time. Just that fact alone says that they were always intended, as Ninja stated. But I do think the development time after launch may have turned out even longer than originally planned because, by then, they felt they had to make toddlers worth the wait.
Cars were also a feature announced to come before the base game was released before they were cut with toddlers and almost 5 years later we still don't know if they will ever come.
And "create sims with unique personalities" IS a key feature but it is still not in the game, after almost 5 years. I'm still waiting to see this key feature.
@JoAnne65 As for Graham's follow up tweet, feedback comes in multiple forms. I'm sure that our feedback played a role in shaping the toddlers, but the constant yelling for them did not. That's the difference between what Ninja said and what Graham said.
I’d like to point at that one crucial word in Graham’s tweet: ‘persistence’
At this point in the game, I don't honestly see how anyone can truly think that toddlers were never going to come if the community didn't speak up. They were announced ahead of launch that they would be included but then were pulled because they couldn't be completed in time. Just that fact alone says that they were always intended, as Ninja stated. But I do think the development time after launch may have turned out even longer than originally planned because, by then, they felt they had to make toddlers worth the wait.
Cars were also a feature announced to come before the base game was released before they were cut with toddlers and almost 5 years later we still don't know if they will ever come.
And "create sims with unique personalities" IS a key feature but it is still not in the game, after almost 5 years. I'm still waiting to see this key feature.
I do agree and it makes me think Sims 4 development was not well thought out as it was not with Sim City 2013. Sims 4 may appear to be doing okay but for me I see a mess of an development happening and EA/Maxis is relying on the name and less than spectacular features. Sims with unique personalities may not even show up at all in my opinion.
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Since City Living (according to SimGuruGrant, Sims 4 DLC was planned up until City Living pre-launch) and we have had:
- Toddlers (based on HUGE demand, and SimGuruLyndsay confirmed they had been working on them for years, I believe it was SimGuruGrant (correct me if I'm wrong) who said there was an issue with Sims holding other Sims/Pets that they had to work out how to fix).
- Vampires (the #1 demanded Life State at the time)
- Parenthood (based on demand from Family Players)
- Cats & Dogs (the #1 EP demanded at the time)
- Jungle Adventure (there was a lot of cult fans who wanted a World Adventures pack, and SimGuruGraham even acknowledged the demand for it, but it didn't do so well as an EP back in S3, so they made those Simmers happy with a GamePack)
- Laundry Day (fan voted)
- Seasons (the #1 demanded EP at the time)
- Get Famous (there was lots of demand for Celebrities, may not have been #1 at the time)
- Strangerville (again, based on a cult following for story based Sims games, a lot of fans and even EA Game Changers were asking for more spin-off/story based content)
- Other patch content like Terrain Tools and more Careers
The only pack that I would say fans didn't ask for is My First Pet Stuff.
BUT EVERY piece of content since City Living has been based on fan feedback.
THEY CANNOT RELEASE CONTENT ALL AT ONCE. But apart from My First Pet Stuff, NOTHING they have actually put out was stuff that wasn't in demand. Everything they have put out was in demand. They just can't cater to everyones demands all at once.
I am honestly so sick of people not listening when Devs say "they can only work as fast as they can" and yet claim that Devs "aren't listening"
SimGuruGraham just did a Podcast 2 days ago explaining what order packs come out in. Maybe people should "listen" to that.
Since City Living (according to SimGuruGrant, Sims 4 DLC was planned up until City Living pre-launch) and we have had:
- Toddlers (based on HUGE demand, and SimGuruLyndsay confirmed they had been working on them for years, I believe it was SimGuruGrant (correct me if I'm wrong) who said there was an issue with Sims holding other Sims/Pets that they had to work out how to fix).
- Vampires (the #1 demanded Life State at the time)
- Parenthood (based on demand from Family Players)
- Cats & Dogs (the #1 EP demanded at the time)
- Jungle Adventure (there was a lot of cult fans who wanted a World Adventures pack, and SimGuruGraham even acknowledged the demand for it, but it didn't do so well as an EP back in S3, so they made those Simmers happy with a GamePack)
- Laundry Day (fan voted)
- Seasons (the #1 demanded EP at the time)
- Get Famous (there was lots of demand for Celebrities, may not have been #1 at the time)
- Strangerville (again, based on a cult following for story based Sims games, a lot of fans and even EA Game Changers were asking for more spin-off/story based content)
- Other patch content like Terrain Tools and more Careers
The only pack that I would say fans didn't ask for is My First Pet Stuff.
BUT EVERY piece of content since City Living has been based on fan feedback.
THEY CANNOT RELEASE CONTENT ALL AT ONCE. But apart from My First Pet Stuff, NOTHING they have actually put out was stuff that wasn't in demand. Everything they have put out was in demand. They just can't cater to everyones demands all at once.
I am honestly so sick of people not listening when Devs say "they can only work as fast as they can" and yet claim that Devs "aren't listening
SimGuruGraham just did a Podcast 2 days ago explaining what order packs come out in. Maybe people should "listen" to that.
No, sorry, Seasons, Pets, and Vacation etc. is a given, we already know they do those at some point. It has nothing to do with requests on those packs. We know they will do them. (So, no, none of that is due to requests or demand, it's a given they will do those type).
What they haven't listened about because it would fundamentally change the game is to work on traits and subdue emotions or make emotions related to the trait given. That would fundamentally change the entire premise of how they wanted us to play and experience this game. The emotions and traits are there to fill a goal, not to create an individual Sim. That's where they don't listen. We don't want traits and the almighty emotions to be the focus of the game in that way (to succeed at goaling) but to define the Sim. This is where they have failed with players. We put up with it, because the game is the current one, bet I can bet not as many would go along with this again in a new iteration. That feedback has been ignored, because that isn't the purpose of this game. This game is about manipulating an emotion in order to gain a goal. Nothing more, nothing less, and though they can now hide the whims, or the emotions it's still it's core, and no matter what they add or subtract this game remains very low level gaming, as long as it remains about the goals and not about the Sim.
Didn't mean to bold everything I just said but the forum goes into overload when I try to bold or use italics for months now.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
@JoAnne65 I see what your saying. And yeah, the whole public trading situation that keeps them from communicating even a small hint during a time when a chunk of the fanbase is angry and walking away from the game...is just bad for everyone. Not being able to promise content is one thing, but to have at least released a statement saying that they were "looking into it", or "trying to work it out", might have reassured a lot of people. Then again, maybe it wouldn't. Players were pretty angry, so... who knows?
@Cinebar I completely agree with your comments regarding emotions vs. traits. I believe that this is the actual core problem with the game and no amount of DLC is going to change it, unfortunately. As soon as they made that decision to put emotions in the forefront (and incomplete ones at that, because they don't even have Fear or Anxiety or Distress) and created the Sims to all react to the same stimuli rather than follow individualistic traits assigned by the player, they made a fatal error. And I think they're well aware of it. The problem is, though, the whole game is designed around it, so I don't think it can be changed. If it could, I suspect they would do it, because I've even seen a statement from the lead producer saying that, looking back, he would have definitely done some things differently. Also, ever since EA started sort of making them play their own game, like on SimGuru Garage, where you can see them struggling against the game and having to invent the gameplay as they go, I think they've become much more aware of the deeper issues there.
But unfortunately, I think the only thing they can do at this point is to build on top of it. So the most that I'm daring to hope for these days is that they find some way to put in some new personality systems that can at least override the bunk emotions.
@JoAnne65 As for Graham's follow up tweet, feedback comes in multiple forms. I'm sure that our feedback played a role in shaping the toddlers, but the constant yelling for them did not. That's the difference between what Ninja said and what Graham said.
I’d like to point at that one crucial word in Graham’s tweet: ‘persistence’
At this point in the game, I don't honestly see how anyone can truly think that toddlers were never going to come if the community didn't speak up. They were announced ahead of launch that they would be included but then were pulled because they couldn't be completed in time. Just that fact alone says that they were always intended, as Ninja stated. But I do think the development time after launch may have turned out even longer than originally planned because, by then, they felt they had to make toddlers worth the wait.
Cars were also a feature announced to come before the base game was released before they were cut with toddlers and almost 5 years later we still don't know if they will ever come.
And "create sims with unique personalities" IS a key feature but it is still not in the game, after almost 5 years. I'm still waiting to see this key feature.
I do agree and it makes me think Sims 4 development was not well thought out as it was not with Sim City 2013. Sims 4 may appear to be doing okay but for me I see a mess of an development happening and EA/Maxis is relying on the name and less than spectacular features. Sims with unique personalities may not even show up at all in my opinion.
I'm afraid that you may be right... Hope not but I have the feeling it's gonna be this way.
. Also, ever since EA started sort of making them play their own game, like on SimGuru Garage, where you can see them struggling against the game and having to invent the gameplay as they go, I think they've become much more aware of the deeper issues there.
It is point! But after 5 years?! This is reason why I am Angry about SimsGurus...
. Also, ever since EA started sort of making them play their own game, like on SimGuru Garage, where you can see them struggling against the game and having to invent the gameplay as they go, I think they've become much more aware of the deeper issues there.
It is point! But after 5 years?! This is reason why I am Angry about SimsGurus...
Yeah I hate when they give us a new household but they just invent the story but me I know that when I'll play with them it's gonna be boring as always and nothing will differ from other households. It was the case with the Lunar Year household, I felt so bad when they invented a story for them in the Maxis Monthly...
Since City Living (according to SimGuruGrant, Sims 4 DLC was planned up until City Living pre-launch) and we have had:
- Toddlers (based on HUGE demand, and SimGuruLyndsay confirmed they had been working on them for years, I believe it was SimGuruGrant (correct me if I'm wrong) who said there was an issue with Sims holding other Sims/Pets that they had to work out how to fix).
- Vampires (the #1 demanded Life State at the time)
- Parenthood (based on demand from Family Players)
- Cats & Dogs (the #1 EP demanded at the time)
- Jungle Adventure (there was a lot of cult fans who wanted a World Adventures pack, and SimGuruGraham even acknowledged the demand for it, but it didn't do so well as an EP back in S3, so they made those Simmers happy with a GamePack)
- Laundry Day (fan voted)
- Seasons (the #1 demanded EP at the time)
- Get Famous (there was lots of demand for Celebrities, may not have been #1 at the time)
- Strangerville (again, based on a cult following for story based Sims games, a lot of fans and even EA Game Changers were asking for more spin-off/story based content)
- Other patch content like Terrain Tools and more Careers
The only pack that I would say fans didn't ask for is My First Pet Stuff.
BUT EVERY piece of content since City Living has been based on fan feedback.
THEY CANNOT RELEASE CONTENT ALL AT ONCE. But apart from My First Pet Stuff, NOTHING they have actually put out was stuff that wasn't in demand. Everything they have put out was in demand. They just can't cater to everyones demands all at once.
I am honestly so sick of people not listening when Devs say "they can only work as fast as they can" and yet claim that Devs "aren't listening"
SimGuruGraham just did a Podcast 2 days ago explaining what order packs come out in. Maybe people should "listen" to that.
Hahaha strangerville wasn’t demanded, grant himself said no one asked for or wanted it when they decided to make it and he had to override other people on the team who didn’t like the idea at all. So come again with the whole cult demand?
The studio does the worst job supplying demand. They clearly haven’t acted solely on demand or there wouldn’t be this constant concern over what they’re going to do with “X” or how they’re going to design “Y” to work. Nah, that concern comes from the fact the studio has repeatedly put out subpar packs that DONT actually provide what’s being asked for, but it’s always BETTER according to the studio than what people were asking for (1000% sarcasm obviously). Go ahead and try to tell me otherwise, if they were really releasing what was demanded (and doing a semi-decent job at it) then there wouldn’t be this high level of distrust, or dissatisfaction among so many players toward individuals or the studio collectively. They did this to themselves, the last thing they need is you returning to your roots to lie and abuse the font format buttons try make a fake news point.
@jackjack_k No some of those things are things that have been in almost every other game before it. At this point, those things are expected to be in the game at some point. Making a reference to a tweet from one of the gurus that was posted earlier in this thread, if our money is almost guaranteed at this point because we are "core players" then these are things that I expect to be in a sims game because most have been there since the beginning. If they want to add new features i'm all for it, but things like seasons, pets, toddlers, cars, supernaturals, family play, etc. are all things that people expect because they are what makes a sims game a sims game at this point. The lack of communication they have adopted this go round, no bug fixes for major issues in the game that have been around for years, and just an overall poor foundation on which this game was built on is why a lot of people feel like they just aren't listening.
Have a super fantastic awesome splendid amazing day! -TheQxxn
Looking at the newest community survey I don't think they do because I'm sure we've answered the same questions like five times by now...
Yep. Still the question of “what does the community team do well” exists, which is a biased question. Other than that it’s not a terrible survey, just generic and overall not one that’s going to produce any detailed feedback.
Comments
Welp, that goes both ways. I AM speaking for myself, but I'm also speaking for 'many' others who feel the same way. If you don't feel the same, then obviously I'm not talking about you.
Everything I said was my opinion, and you calling TS4 a gimped version is also an opinion, not fact. The thing is, everyone values different things in each game. There are many players who couldn't care less about the issues you've listed for The Sims 4. Because they're not issues for everybody, and that's why they're called opinions.
I agree. But we're placing the blame on the wrong people. It's not their fault that they couldn't tell us. In a perfect world, all games would be fully featured upon release. In this case, the game released before it was finished. It should have been pushed back at least until toddlers and pools were ready. Since that didn't happen (and it's the publisher's fault rather than the developers,) they had no choice but to plan toddlers for a later date.
No use crying over spilled milk now; what's done is done. I just hope they learned from this so it won't happen again. A little transparency would have created a calmer, less frustrating atmosphere. But again, these rules are set by the bosses. Not by those who are actually working on the game. *Also, the pesky law that requires free content to be announced within the same quarter.
That actually wouldn't have been necessary if they'd implemented them from the get go, like they did two times before. Simple as that.
And of course, from his perspective ("... today we now have free toddlers because of their endless feedback"), the answer to that apparently is: "Respectfully, no." (which in a way is pretty harsh to tell fans you have left hanging for two and a half years, making them believe their feedback actually was necessary (and that they did, no matter their backstage plans and intentions). Though it's interesting to scroll a bit further and see someone quoting this tweet in return:
So the gurus among themselves don't fully appear to interprete things equally on this matter or so it seems. Like I said I fully agree with you there, I'm not blaming developers, or specific people for that matter (someone seemed to entirely blame Rachel Franklin a couple of days ago and I don't buy that either, I can't imagine this comes down to a person). I don't even know how things work in the gaming industry and quite frankly, I don't care. I'm the (paying) consumer. A consumer who potentially can be totally addicted to their franchise but I'm stuck in the past with my addiction now. For players like me there's nothing left but crying over the milk they spilled, because it completely ruined the carpet and people like me say: "Stop trying to scrub out the stains and the smell and please get us a brand new carpet. Without spilling milk this time around.
p.s. I don't think we fully disagree on this subject by the way, the topic I mean. If I may repeat my initial reply:
This also in reply to "They've already told us that this game won't have CAST (or open world,) and the reason why. So yes, they are listening when they give us new colors." Of course that is a form of listening, but you can't expect that kind of listening will do it for people. Not because they're spoiled or ungrateful, but rather because it completely misses the point. Adding a black door when someone would love to colour it themself. My reply to the black door:
Hmmm, I am doing the same and I could care less about the non issues they list for as you see it does go both ways and that was my point of my post by the way.
I only took issue with you saying that it was a fact. Now you're admitting it is only an opinion. Cool Beans.
I think it made a great difference to the care they took with them though. I doubt if they would have been as well done if they were rushed through to get them in the base game.
No, they don't... At times it 'seems' like it, because their releases coincide with what people want, but they don't, ever, listen.
Not even to bug reports.
That's why bugs that've been in the game since the beginning, remain unfixed (even though modders can fix them with ease), why features long requested wall to wall, go unmade.
Unless it's causing increasing anger among the fanbase, in which case threatens profits, they'll ignore everyone completely and go on releasing whatever 'they' want to.
It's costing EA dearly now though, their games are failing, one by one, because they not only don't listen, but they're been at this for so long, they've forgotten how to listen.
I think the "persistence" had more to do with the wait, player patience, and the huge suggestion thread. I also remember seeing a lot of people threatening that, after waiting so long, that toddlers would have to be extremely good or they wouldn't support the game. A lot of faith was lost, yet people stuck around to give feedback and still hoped for them to show. And then they did.
At this point in the game, I don't honestly see how anyone can truly think that toddlers were never going to come if the community didn't speak up. They were announced ahead of launch that they would be included but then were pulled because they couldn't be completed in time. Just that fact alone says that they were always intended, as Ninja stated. But I do think the development time after launch may have turned out even longer than originally planned because, by then, they felt they had to make toddlers worth the wait.
The instant outrage and the perseverance may very well have been a reason for EA to decide at a very early stage to indeed do everything to add them. And I still don’t find it very chique, whatever the reason, to keep silent about it. And to literally suggest that toddlers were just one of those things fans want and this whole telemetry nonsense (suggesting fans actually didn’t care for them, they just thought they did or whatever). I’m sure to some extent they weren’t allowed to, but at the same time I can’t help noticing they love the riddle and mystery and shock surprise marketing method these days. Which gave birth to this “are they listening” vibe and hyping atmosphere among fans.
And "create sims with unique personalities" IS a key feature but it is still not in the game, after almost 5 years. I'm still waiting to see this key feature.
I do agree and it makes me think Sims 4 development was not well thought out as it was not with Sim City 2013. Sims 4 may appear to be doing okay but for me I see a mess of an development happening and EA/Maxis is relying on the name and less than spectacular features. Sims with unique personalities may not even show up at all in my opinion.
Since City Living (according to SimGuruGrant, Sims 4 DLC was planned up until City Living pre-launch) and we have had:
- Toddlers (based on HUGE demand, and SimGuruLyndsay confirmed they had been working on them for years, I believe it was SimGuruGrant (correct me if I'm wrong) who said there was an issue with Sims holding other Sims/Pets that they had to work out how to fix).
- Vampires (the #1 demanded Life State at the time)
- Parenthood (based on demand from Family Players)
- Cats & Dogs (the #1 EP demanded at the time)
- Jungle Adventure (there was a lot of cult fans who wanted a World Adventures pack, and SimGuruGraham even acknowledged the demand for it, but it didn't do so well as an EP back in S3, so they made those Simmers happy with a GamePack)
- Laundry Day (fan voted)
- Seasons (the #1 demanded EP at the time)
- Get Famous (there was lots of demand for Celebrities, may not have been #1 at the time)
- Strangerville (again, based on a cult following for story based Sims games, a lot of fans and even EA Game Changers were asking for more spin-off/story based content)
- Other patch content like Terrain Tools and more Careers
The only pack that I would say fans didn't ask for is My First Pet Stuff.
BUT EVERY piece of content since City Living has been based on fan feedback.
THEY CANNOT RELEASE CONTENT ALL AT ONCE. But apart from My First Pet Stuff, NOTHING they have actually put out was stuff that wasn't in demand. Everything they have put out was in demand. They just can't cater to everyones demands all at once.
I am honestly so sick of people not listening when Devs say "they can only work as fast as they can" and yet claim that Devs "aren't listening"
SimGuruGraham just did a Podcast 2 days ago explaining what order packs come out in. Maybe people should "listen" to that.
Insta: https://instagram.com/jkarajs?igshid=oef2ymrand3g
No, sorry, Seasons, Pets, and Vacation etc. is a given, we already know they do those at some point. It has nothing to do with requests on those packs. We know they will do them. (So, no, none of that is due to requests or demand, it's a given they will do those type).
What they haven't listened about because it would fundamentally change the game is to work on traits and subdue emotions or make emotions related to the trait given. That would fundamentally change the entire premise of how they wanted us to play and experience this game. The emotions and traits are there to fill a goal, not to create an individual Sim. That's where they don't listen. We don't want traits and the almighty emotions to be the focus of the game in that way (to succeed at goaling) but to define the Sim. This is where they have failed with players. We put up with it, because the game is the current one, bet I can bet not as many would go along with this again in a new iteration. That feedback has been ignored, because that isn't the purpose of this game. This game is about manipulating an emotion in order to gain a goal. Nothing more, nothing less, and though they can now hide the whims, or the emotions it's still it's core, and no matter what they add or subtract this game remains very low level gaming, as long as it remains about the goals and not about the Sim.
Didn't mean to bold everything I just said but the forum goes into overload when I try to bold or use italics for months now.
@Cinebar I completely agree with your comments regarding emotions vs. traits. I believe that this is the actual core problem with the game and no amount of DLC is going to change it, unfortunately. As soon as they made that decision to put emotions in the forefront (and incomplete ones at that, because they don't even have Fear or Anxiety or Distress) and created the Sims to all react to the same stimuli rather than follow individualistic traits assigned by the player, they made a fatal error. And I think they're well aware of it. The problem is, though, the whole game is designed around it, so I don't think it can be changed. If it could, I suspect they would do it, because I've even seen a statement from the lead producer saying that, looking back, he would have definitely done some things differently. Also, ever since EA started sort of making them play their own game, like on SimGuru Garage, where you can see them struggling against the game and having to invent the gameplay as they go, I think they've become much more aware of the deeper issues there.
But unfortunately, I think the only thing they can do at this point is to build on top of it. So the most that I'm daring to hope for these days is that they find some way to put in some new personality systems that can at least override the bunk emotions.
I'm afraid that you may be right... Hope not but I have the feeling it's gonna be this way.
It is point! But after 5 years?! This is reason why I am Angry about SimsGurus...
Yeah I hate when they give us a new household but they just invent the story but me I know that when I'll play with them it's gonna be boring as always and nothing will differ from other households. It was the case with the Lunar Year household, I felt so bad when they invented a story for them in the Maxis Monthly...
Hahaha strangerville wasn’t demanded, grant himself said no one asked for or wanted it when they decided to make it and he had to override other people on the team who didn’t like the idea at all. So come again with the whole cult demand?
The studio does the worst job supplying demand. They clearly haven’t acted solely on demand or there wouldn’t be this constant concern over what they’re going to do with “X” or how they’re going to design “Y” to work. Nah, that concern comes from the fact the studio has repeatedly put out subpar packs that DONT actually provide what’s being asked for, but it’s always BETTER according to the studio than what people were asking for (1000% sarcasm obviously). Go ahead and try to tell me otherwise, if they were really releasing what was demanded (and doing a semi-decent job at it) then there wouldn’t be this high level of distrust, or dissatisfaction among so many players toward individuals or the studio collectively. They did this to themselves, the last thing they need is you returning to your roots to lie and abuse the font format buttons try make a fake news point.
@jackjack_k No some of those things are things that have been in almost every other game before it. At this point, those things are expected to be in the game at some point. Making a reference to a tweet from one of the gurus that was posted earlier in this thread, if our money is almost guaranteed at this point because we are "core players" then these are things that I expect to be in a sims game because most have been there since the beginning. If they want to add new features i'm all for it, but things like seasons, pets, toddlers, cars, supernaturals, family play, etc. are all things that people expect because they are what makes a sims game a sims game at this point. The lack of communication they have adopted this go round, no bug fixes for major issues in the game that have been around for years, and just an overall poor foundation on which this game was built on is why a lot of people feel like they just aren't listening.
Yep. Still the question of “what does the community team do well” exists, which is a biased question. Other than that it’s not a terrible survey, just generic and overall not one that’s going to produce any detailed feedback.