Attention Gurus: CAN I HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE «123...Next Go

orkhid22

It appears to me that oftentimes you wait until after the game has been produced to get input from players. And this results in what i would say ideas that sound good in theory but are poorly executed. And frankly, some of the ideas aren't even good in theory.

exhibit A: base game without any toddlers. I'm not sure how Rachel Franklin manged to convince you all that this was a good idea. The backlash experienced just prior to and during launch was brutal.

exhibit B: the decision to focus get together on parties rather than clubs back when Rachel presented at E3. it made the game disliked before it was even ready

exhibit C: Get together, you can't personally send your sim to the doctor? why not?

exhibit D : in Dine Out players couldn't be the chef. I mean who let you create this entire pack and not one person say "well guys, maybe the players want to play as the chef"? it's like that never occurred to you. Any person that hung around TS3 forums enough know that the clamor was for sim and family run businesses. So with Dine Out, not only could players not be the chef but they couldn't even run it as a family business.

exhibit E: it's not out yet, but SP 13. billed as the "community stuff pack". This thing was rigged from the jump in such that there has been multiple requests for laundry to be in the game and instead of creating a laundry stuff pack and saving the community stuff pack for a new idea, the community stuff pack had to be in competition with the laundry pack.

i can continue with evidence of poor execution of game play ideas but i'm sure you get the gist.

My position is, players need a seat at the table well before y'all solidify some of this stuff into the game so that you have feedback as to how this is going to go. Do i think everyone will be happy, nah there will still be people who want more or would want something different but the current way y'all are going about creating these packs tells me something as got to change.

You can PM me my invite to the table.

Thanks

Cinebar

I respect what you are saying and agree with everything you said, however, we've had these conversations before with SimGuruDrake who is supposed to relay to the team what players want in their games. And we have been told in blunt terms they do focus groups, they speak to players who never come to the Twitter or forums to hear from them and this community (forums) is not the only voice and they get their ideas from many different venues and players who never really speak out much. And that the forum community is not the majority and were reminded we are not the voice of the majority of the Simming community. But then, that leaves the question like it always does, if that is all true, then why would players of the series ever tell them it was o.k., yes, sure, leave out being able to cook or wait on tables in DO. You do have to wonder where all these people are, and if they are truly listening to anyone other than their own echo chambers. Dog house is a fine example.

Writin_Reg

Cinebar wrote: »

I respect what you are saying and agree with everything you said, however, we've had these conversations before with SimGuruDrake who is supposed to relay to the team what players want in their games. And we have been told in blunt terms they do focus groups, they speak to players who never come to the Twitter or forums to hear from them and this community (forums) is not the only voice and they get their ideas from many different venues and players who never really speak out much. And that the forum community is not the majority and were reminded we are not the voice of the majority of the Simming community. But then, that leaves the question like it always does, if that is all true, then why would players of the series ever tell them it was o.k., yes, sure, leave out being able to cook or wait on tables in DO. You do have to wonder where all these people are, and if they are truly listening to anyone other than their own echo chambers. Dog house is a fine example.

Well if that's the case they are asking the WRONG group of people. I'm with Orkhid 22 with this one - all the way for sure. They should be asking the people who have been playing all the Sims games and still playing and buying the Sims games and who will probably be most likely to keep doing so - don't you think?

ehaught58

Writin_Reg wrote: »

Cinebar wrote: »

I respect what you are saying and agree with everything you said, however, we've had these conversations before with SimGuruDrake who is supposed to relay to the team what players want in their games. And we have been told in blunt terms they do focus groups, they speak to players who never come to the Twitter or forums to hear from them and this community (forums) is not the only voice and they get their ideas from many different venues and players who never really speak out much. And that the forum community is not the majority and were reminded we are not the voice of the majority of the Simming community. But then, that leaves the question like it always does, if that is all true, then why would players of the series ever tell them it was o.k., yes, sure, leave out being able to cook or wait on tables in DO. You do have to wonder where all these people are, and if they are truly listening to anyone other than their own echo chambers. Dog house is a fine example.

Well if that's the case they are asking the WRONG group of people. I'm with Orkhid 22 with this one - all the way for sure. They should be asking the people who have been playing all the Sims games and still playing and buying the Sims games and who will probably be most likely to keep doing so - don't you think?

I agree. I think they listened to fans a little more closely with the previous versions. Not so much this version.

agustd

I agree with you 100% OP but I'm pretty sure some of the questionable "decisions" they make happen because they simply have no other choice. TS4's engine is not much to work with. If they give you EP after EP that are lacking the obvious options it becomes pretty clear they're just extremely limited in what they can do with this game. And that is a whole different issue. I doubt it never occured to them that players would love to play as the chef.. They just couldn't offer it to us. That's why the negative feedback players give is rarely addressed by gurus themselves. They can't go on twitter and be like "this game is b*s y'all we can't program what you're asking us for sorry!"

Don't even start me on the community stuff pack! I'm glad most people noticed right away what was going on. We were never given a choice. They picked the theme for us and just waited for the laundry lovers to make it look like they really allowed us that decision.

I'm sure they want us to sit at the table with them, just not for this iteration, because in order for it to happen they'd have to be upfront about this game's true condition. And it's poor. Very poor. They knew it since day 1 they won't ever be able to meet our expectations and the content is always going to fall short. They had their moments, but looking at TS4 overall..? A joke. And they know it. They don't need us at the table to poke them with forks and yell at them about it.

orkhid22

Asking a casual player seems kinda counter productive. They probably don't even know when the next pack is out. I just think the current way things are going isn't effective

MidnightAura

I agree with the OP 100%

Particularly about the community stuff pack. I get the feeling sometimes we aren’t being asked what we want, we are being told what we want. I.e no toddlers initially, can’t hire your own sims for restaurants, don’t have dog houses, can’t see pets UI.

I would love to know who they get feedback from other than the influencers.

king_of_simcity7

@MidnightAura Good points

I do wonder if he opinions are limited so it becomes a case of 'Hobson's Choice'

You do have a choice, but not always a brilliant one

Cinebar

ehaught58 wrote: »

Writin_Reg wrote: »

Cinebar wrote: »

I respect what you are saying and agree with everything you said, however, we've had these conversations before with SimGuruDrake who is supposed to relay to the team what players want in their games. And we have been told in blunt terms they do focus groups, they speak to players who never come to the Twitter or forums to hear from them and this community (forums) is not the only voice and they get their ideas from many different venues and players who never really speak out much. And that the forum community is not the majority and were reminded we are not the voice of the majority of the Simming community. But then, that leaves the question like it always does, if that is all true, then why would players of the series ever tell them it was o.k., yes, sure, leave out being able to cook or wait on tables in DO. You do have to wonder where all these people are, and if they are truly listening to anyone other than their own echo chambers. Dog house is a fine example.

Well if that's the case they are asking the WRONG group of people. I'm with Orkhid 22 with this one - all the way for sure. They should be asking the people who have been playing all the Sims games and still playing and buying the Sims games and who will probably be most likely to keep doing so - don't you think?

I agree. I think they listened to fans a little more closely with the previous versions. Not so much this version.

I'm only pointing out we had these arguments and the thread was deleted, we argued with SGDrake who told many of us we are not the vast majority and therefore I no longer expect anything anymore other than for developers who are deviant players themselves sometimes, to throw in a surprise once in a blue moon. But then if it can't be approved by the rest of a team, then I have to just deal with what they do add and hope no one complains so loudly they nerf it (like they did alien abductions) since many of us (all sorts of people here and we know who we are) were told we are not the vast majority. And this gets echoed here everyday by those who like TS4 exactly how it is and didn't want toddlers, vampires, illness, bills to pay, angry Sims, or anything else that resembled life and having to over come hardships of any small amount in these games.

Amistri2016

> @orkhid22 said:
> It appears to me that oftentimes you wait until after the game has been produced to get input from players. And this results in what i would say ideas that sound good in theory but are poorly executed. And frankly, some of the ideas aren't even good in theory.
>
> exhibit A: base game without any toddlers. I'm not sure how Rachel Franklin manged to convince you all that this was a good idea. The backlash experienced just prior to and during launch was brutal.
>
> exhibit B: the decision to focus get together on parties rather than clubs back when Rachel presented at E3. it made the game disliked before it was even ready
>
> exhibit C: Get together, you can't personally send your sim to the doctor? why not?
>
> exhibit D : in Dine Out players couldn't be the chef. I mean who let you create this entire pack and not one person say "well guys, maybe the players want to play as the chef"? it's like that never occurred to you. Any person that hung around TS3 forums enough know that the clamor was for sim and family run businesses. So with Dine Out, not only could players not be the chef but they couldn't even run it as a family business.
>
> exhibit E: it's not out yet, but SP 13. billed as the "community stuff pack". This thing was rigged from the jump in such that there has been multiple requests for laundry to be in the game and instead of creating a laundry stuff pack and saving the community stuff pack for a new idea, the community stuff pack had to be in competition with the laundry pack.
>
> i can continue with evidence of poor execution of game play ideas but i'm sure you get the gist.
>
> My position is, players need a seat at the table well before y'all solidify some of this stuff into the game so that you have feedback as to how this is going to go. Do i think everyone will be happy, nah there will still be people who want more or would want something different but the current way y'all are going about creating these packs tells me something as got to change.
>
> You can PM me my invite to the table.
>
> Thanks

I agree with you 100%. I just don't think they care enough to do so. They will never change the way they are doing things because they know there is no competition for this type of game. I guarantee that if they had more competition they wouldn't be slowly gating the material that should have originally been in the base game all this time.

I'll say it again....somewhere out there are developers looking for ideas. We just gotta pray that someone is actually listening. Until then we are left with a products that are either incomplete or don't work properly.

To7m

While I agree with the OP in theory, I’m with @Cinebar. We’ve both been there and done that with @SimGuruDrake herself and although I can’t remember the exact words, we were basically told we had no say over what happens with the game and to either like it or lump it.

This was shortly before toddlers were added. The situation has not changed since then. At all. If anything, it’s worse.

So, great post OP but it’ll have zero impact. Honestly? Save your passion for a company that actually cares about its fans.


—T

ETA: typos

dezoutloud

I agree 6000%! I have been a long time sims player and the sims 4 has disappointed so much it's a little ridiculous. I won't even buy any more packs for it until some of these long time bugs have been straightened out because more content means more lag, which is why I'm assuming the packs released have been very limited. It's obvious that they don't care when certain bugs have been around since day 1 and no one has done anything about them. The more they care about spitting out ep after ep quicker than the next for money the worse the quality will be. Until they start caring about the people actually playing the games more than that, we're never gonna get a say.

Cinderellimouse

Writin_Reg wrote: »

They should be asking the people who have been playing all the Sims games and still playing and buying the Sims games and who will probably be most likely to keep doing so - don't you think?

Agreed. But I didn't get Sweet Treats so I guess I'm out of the running.

Triplis

I mean, how do you envision this "asking for our input" stuff going down exactly? They already did that to an extent with the community stuff pack and its dedicated forum, and look where that got them... accusations of it being rigged. What proof are they supposed to offer that they take player input into account? By listening to every request that you personally have?

Developers have enough of a job agreeing with each other, without inviting thousands more to the table. I don't like developers seeming tone deaf either, but the reality is, whether a developer seems tone deaf largely comes down to whether they're living up to your personal expectations/desires.

Writin_Reg

Cinderellimouse wrote: »

Writin_Reg wrote: »

They should be asking the people who have been playing all the Sims games and still playing and buying the Sims games and who will probably be most likely to keep doing so - don't you think?

Agreed. But I didn't get Sweet Treats so I guess I'm out of the running.

Lol - I have - but believe me you didn't miss much. I use the pool and ice cream parlour looking place - the rest look just ridiculous anyway. Good for kids parties I guess. Lol.
But Cindi I would never say you wouldn't qualify - lol.

Writin_Reg

Triplis wrote: »

I mean, how do you envision this "asking for our input" stuff going down exactly? They already did that to an extent with the community stuff pack and its dedicated forum, and look where that got them... accusations of it being rigged. What proof are they supposed to offer that they take player input into account? By listening to every request that you personally have?

Developers have enough of a job agreeing with each other, without inviting thousands more to the table. I don't like developers seeming tone deaf either, but the reality is, whether a developer seems tone deaf largely comes down to whether they're living up to your personal expectations/desires.

You can't go by the community pack as lets face it that was multiple choice - if anything.

Mendota

Triplis wrote: »

I mean, how do you envision this "asking for our input" stuff going down exactly? They already did that to an extent with the community stuff pack and its dedicated forum, and look where that got them... accusations of it being rigged. What proof are they supposed to offer that they take player input into account? By listening to every request that you personally have?

Developers have enough of a job agreeing with each other, without inviting thousands more to the table. I don't like developers seeming tone deaf either, but the reality is, whether a developer seems tone deaf largely comes down to whether they're living up to your personal expectations/desires.

This so much. It amazes me that people cannot comprehend that just because they want something doesn't mean everyone does. I have no desire to play as chief because I don't care about running businesses. For me that was one thing I liked about Sims 3. You just had a little piece of paper that said you were a business owner. Open for business in Sims 2... Never liked it.

To7m

Mendota wrote: »

Triplis wrote: »

I mean, how do you envision this "asking for our input" stuff going down exactly? They already did that to an extent with the community stuff pack and its dedicated forum, and look where that got them... accusations of it being rigged. What proof are they supposed to offer that they take player input into account? By listening to every request that you personally have?

Developers have enough of a job agreeing with each other, without inviting thousands more to the table. I don't like developers seeming tone deaf either, but the reality is, whether a developer seems tone deaf largely comes down to whether they're living up to your personal expectations/desires.

This so much. It amazes me that people cannot comprehend that just because they want something doesn't mean everyone does. I have no desire to play as chief because I don't care about running businesses. For me that was one thing I liked about Sims 3. You just had a little piece of paper that said you were a business owner. Open for business in Sims 2... Never liked it.

Same logic applies; just because you *dont* want it, why remove it from the game entirely? That’s the entire point. The Sims is a game of options and choices - sorry, but what on EARTH possessed the devs to think it would be ok to remove basic pet needs or not be able to be a CHEF in your own restaurant? On what planet is that even a logical choice? Most restaurant owners I know (and I know several) ALL cook their own food. All of them.


I used to play this game because of all the options it offered me. Now we’re kinda forced to play a certain way because of 1. The way the game is made and 2. Because the community can’t grasp the fact that because something is IN the game in the first place, you *dont* actually have to use it.

—T

MidnightAura

Writin_Reg wrote: »

Cinebar wrote: »

I respect what you are saying and agree with everything you said, however, we've had these conversations before with SimGuruDrake who is supposed to relay to the team what players want in their games. And we have been told in blunt terms they do focus groups, they speak to players who never come to the Twitter or forums to hear from them and this community (forums) is not the only voice and they get their ideas from many different venues and players who never really speak out much. And that the forum community is not the majority and were reminded we are not the voice of the majority of the Simming community. But then, that leaves the question like it always does, if that is all true, then why would players of the series ever tell them it was o.k., yes, sure, leave out being able to cook or wait on tables in DO. You do have to wonder where all these people are, and if they are truly listening to anyone other than their own echo chambers. Dog house is a fine example.

Well if that's the case they are asking the WRONG group of people. I'm with Orkhid 22 with this one - all the way for sure. They should be asking the people who have been playing all the Sims games and still playing and buying the Sims games and who will probably be most likely to keep doing so - don't you think?

I agree. But sadly If you have played the previous games you most likely will not fall into the target market and as such they don't care for your opinion.

Mendota

To7m wrote: »

Mendota wrote: »

Triplis wrote: »

I mean, how do you envision this "asking for our input" stuff going down exactly? They already did that to an extent with the community stuff pack and its dedicated forum, and look where that got them... accusations of it being rigged. What proof are they supposed to offer that they take player input into account? By listening to every request that you personally have?

Developers have enough of a job agreeing with each other, without inviting thousands more to the table. I don't like developers seeming tone deaf either, but the reality is, whether a developer seems tone deaf largely comes down to whether they're living up to your personal expectations/desires.

This so much. It amazes me that people cannot comprehend that just because they want something doesn't mean everyone does. I have no desire to play as chief because I don't care about running businesses. For me that was one thing I liked about Sims 3. You just had a little piece of paper that said you were a business owner. Open for business in Sims 2... Never liked it.

Same logic applies; just because you *dont* want it, why remove it from the game entirely? That’s the entire point. The Sims is a game of options and choices - sorry, but what on EARTH possessed the devs to think it would be ok to remove basic pet needs or not be able to be a CHEF in your own restaurant? On what planet is that even a logical choice? Most restaurant owners I know (and I know several) ALL cook their own food. All of them.


I used to play this game because of all the options it offered me. Now we’re kinda forced to play a certain way because of 1. The way the game is made and 2. Because the community can’t grasp the fact that because something is IN the game in the first place, you *dont* actually have to use it.

—T

Well actually I find Sims 4 to be far more open and flexible than Sims 2 or 3 ever was. Most of the things in Sims 2 I had to mod in to enjoy. And there are quite a few restaurants owners that hire cooks and DO NOT cook in their own establishments. In fact, most do not, hence why there are job openings for cooks and chefs. It is not a matter of taking options out, it simply wasn't there in the first place. But the game is mod friendly as most sims games are. In Sims 2 and Sims 4 I have schools, thanks to mods. Neither game offered these options but since I wanted them for my play I did what was necessary to make it happen. Because well, not everyone wants schools. I believe that there are mods for Dine out that will allow you to hire family for jobs... Go get them. The game can't fill everyone's desire, but they have made it possible for you to act on your own to fill those wants.

Triplis

To7m wrote: »

Same logic applies; just because you *dont* want it, why remove it from the game entirely? That’s the entire point. The Sims is a game of options and choices - sorry, but what on EARTH possessed the devs to think it would be ok to remove basic pet needs or not be able to be a CHEF in your own restaurant? On what planet is that even a logical choice? Most restaurant owners I know (and I know several) ALL cook their own food. All of them.


I used to play this game because of all the options it offered me. Now we’re kinda forced to play a certain way because of 1. The way the game is made and 2. Because the community can’t grasp the fact that because something is IN the game in the first place, you *dont* actually have to use it.

—T

They didn't "remove" it. They chose not to create it and add it.

I'm starting to think that if there is a Sims 5, they should just throw everything out but the most basic of sims concepts and start over. And then instead of rehashing packs, make entirely new stuff. Cause it seems they're asked nonstop to repeat what past games did (but better), but if they fall short on even one thing, they've committed a creative crime of the highest order.

They're a team of professionals and I expect them to excel, considering the price tag. But the expectations being placed on them with regards to repeat content are too often unrealistic. Players assume that something they consider essential is essential in the minds of the developers and then get mad when that essential thing is missing.

I have no interest in defending the greed of publishers, but plummed if I watch devs getting taken to task for not being perfect. The amount of myth and magical thinking that surrounds the powers of devs is out of hand. Criticize and complain all you want, but realize that devs aren't mind-readers and they have no magical powers. Sometimes they have different priorities than player 23502 and sometimes they just don't know what player 23502 wants. And sometimes they know exactly what player 23502 wants and they want to give it to them, but they don't have the time or the resources.

To7m

Triplis wrote: »

To7m wrote: »

Same logic applies; just because you *dont* want it, why remove it from the game entirely? That’s the entire point. The Sims is a game of options and choices - sorry, but what on EARTH possessed the devs to think it would be ok to remove basic pet needs or not be able to be a CHEF in your own restaurant? On what planet is that even a logical choice? Most restaurant owners I know (and I know several) ALL cook their own food. All of them.


I used to play this game because of all the options it offered me. Now we’re kinda forced to play a certain way because of 1. The way the game is made and 2. Because the community can’t grasp the fact that because something is IN the game in the first place, you *dont* actually have to use it.

—T

They didn't "remove" it. They chose not to create it and add it.

I'm starting to think that if there is a Sims 5, they should just throw everything out but the most basic of sims concepts and start over. And then instead of rehashing packs, make entirely new stuff. Cause it seems they're asked nonstop to repeat what past games did (but better), but if they fall short on even one thing, they've committed a creative crime of the highest order.

They're a team of professionals and I expect them to excel, considering the price tag. But the expectations being placed on them with regards to repeat content are too often unrealistic. Players assume that something they consider essential is essential in the minds of the developers and then get mad when that essential thing is missing.

I have no interest in defending the greed of publishers, but plummed if I watch devs getting taken to task for not being perfect. The amount of myth and magical thinking that surrounds the powers of devs is out of hand. Criticize and complain all you want, but realize that devs aren't mind-readers and they have no magical powers. Sometimes they have different priorities than player 23502 and sometimes they just don't know what player 23502 wants. And sometimes they know exactly what player 23502 wants and they want to give it to them, but they don't have the time or the resources.

You misunderstand, it’s been ‘removed’ because previous games have done it. Anything I want for this game is not ‘new’; it has been done before. I welcome new stuff, but add to what you have already accomplished. Don’t take away what makes this game fun, which is what EA have done for the majority of the fan base.

—T

To7m

Mendota wrote: »

To7m wrote: »

Mendota wrote: »

Triplis wrote: »

I mean, how do you envision this "asking for our input" stuff going down exactly? They already did that to an extent with the community stuff pack and its dedicated forum, and look where that got them... accusations of it being rigged. What proof are they supposed to offer that they take player input into account? By listening to every request that you personally have?

Developers have enough of a job agreeing with each other, without inviting thousands more to the table. I don't like developers seeming tone deaf either, but the reality is, whether a developer seems tone deaf largely comes down to whether they're living up to your personal expectations/desires.

This so much. It amazes me that people cannot comprehend that just because they want something doesn't mean everyone does. I have no desire to play as chief because I don't care about running businesses. For me that was one thing I liked about Sims 3. You just had a little piece of paper that said you were a business owner. Open for business in Sims 2... Never liked it.

Same logic applies; just because you *dont* want it, why remove it from the game entirely? That’s the entire point. The Sims is a game of options and choices - sorry, but what on EARTH possessed the devs to think it would be ok to remove basic pet needs or not be able to be a CHEF in your own restaurant? On what planet is that even a logical choice? Most restaurant owners I know (and I know several) ALL cook their own food. All of them.


I used to play this game because of all the options it offered me. Now we’re kinda forced to play a certain way because of 1. The way the game is made and 2. Because the community can’t grasp the fact that because something is IN the game in the first place, you *dont* actually have to use it.

—T

Well actually I find Sims 4 to be far more open and flexible than Sims 2 or 3 ever was. Most of the things in Sims 2 I had to mod in to enjoy. And there are quite a few restaurants owners that hire cooks and DO NOT cook in their own establishments. In fact, most do not, hence why there are job openings for cooks and chefs. It is not a matter of taking options out, it simply wasn't there in the first place. But the game is mod friendly as most sims games are. In Sims 2 and Sims 4 I have schools, thanks to mods. Neither game offered these options but since I wanted them for my play I did what was necessary to make it happen. Because well, not everyone wants schools. I believe that there are mods for Dine out that will allow you to hire family for jobs... Go get them. The game can't fill everyone's desire, but they have made it possible for you to act on your own to fill those wants.

Active schools have never been in any sims game so moot point. Cars have though, so have memories, burglars, firemen, step parents that the game actually recognises, cuddling on beds... the most basic of things are gone. Things that made me actually like the game in the first place. TS2 has a closed world and it’ll be more open and flexible than TS4 ever will. And that’s a fact.

—T

ETA; and IMO, if you’re modding the game to make it better EA have already failed. Mods are supposed to enhance what is already there, not add stuff the actual makers of the game should be doing.

DragonCat159

orkhid22 wrote: »

My position is, players need a seat at the table well before y'all solidify some of this stuff into the game so that you have feedback as to how this is going to go. Do i think everyone will be happy, nah there will still be people who want more or would want something different but the current way y'all are going about creating these packs tells me something as got to change.

You can PM me my invite to the table.

Thanks

That's already a thing. Actually, you're, and we included, are sitting around in this table already. And It's called "Feedback" section. However, EA tricking people with this so called "feedback" bin that's label as such, but in reality it's a trashbin filled with all loyal/fan shared goods, like jewerely, which soon is thereto be thrown out by the big bad company that's doing this filthy job just to earn filthy money/cash instead of exchanging the donated items into a resource that would benefit in helping the all sick people that are in need for care. They would have already and still can change their agenda, but they simply won't. I see no hope in fixing this corrupt greedy 🐸🐸🐸🐸.