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I love the inclusive update, but binders NEED to be fixed

I wasn't seeing anyone else talking about this and I am sure the sims team meant well, but the way that binders have been implemented isn't just upsetting, it may be dangerous. It feels like there wasn't much effort put into this part of the update and I mean no offense when I say that. I love the addition of glucose monitors and hearing aids and mastectomy scars.

But to start this post off the most glaring and most dangerous issue, the binder is, by default, a part of the sleepwear category. It should be locked out of the sleepwear category entirely, perhaps have it with a locked icon that when you hover over it presents the player with a message like "Binding while sleeping is dangerous and can cause permanent health issues." I am worried about trans people who are just discovering their identity, especially transgender children and teens, playing the game and thinking that binders are okay to sleep in or even to wear for long periods of time. You absolutely should not, under any circumstances, sleep with a binder on. This is one of the first things mentioned when you look up binders. The reason for this is because binders are meant to compress (more on that later) and they already put pressure on the chest and lungs when you're awake. When you sleep, your breathing is not as strong as it is when you're awake, it is shallow, and binders make that breathing even more shallow, which can lead to a variety of respiratory issues, like obstructive sleep apnea, which can be fatal. Using it when sleeping or wearing it for too long can also cause permanent changes to your bone structure. It can bruise, crack, and even break your ribcage when used incorrectly. A common effect of improper binding is a warped ribcage. The ribcage tries to adjust so that you can breathe while binding, but it only ends up making things worse as your ribcage becomes more concave than it is meant to be and this often causes lifelong breathing issues. All the side effects you get from binding improperly can also cause pneumonia, which, if you continue to bind, can become severe very quickly since it's difficult to cough when binding. It is extremely dangerous. It should not be worn during exercise for similar reasons.

Now, the less obvious danger is the dysphoria that people are getting from the way the binder was made in the game (there are a few threads on the sims reddit that talk about this specifically). It is true that binders don't completely compress as a flat chest isn't possible, even for cisgender men, but the "compression" that is shown in the sims is more akin to a sports bra than a binder. Even those with very large chests experience a significant change when binding. Binders have stiff fabric on the front and stretchy fabric on the back so that the stiff fabric can, well, compress the chest. It does a very good job at this. The one in the game also has a lighter version of the shading that is used on most female tops and that is not accurate to what it looks like and also makes the chest more obvious than it is meant to.

It is not only upsetting that the sims binder doesn't work as intended, it is also, in a less obvious way, dangerous. Dysphoria can be and often is deadly, especially in younger trans people. Binding is actually a very big point of stress and dysphoria, despite it also relieving dysphoria. Trans people often feel that their binder is not compressing when it is and they feel that other people can tell they have a larger chest even when the binder is actually making them quite flat. Where the danger comes in is that trans people, particularly teens, will experience that specific form of dysphoria from the improper implementation of binders in the game. The worry is that young trans people will see the sims binders, see how they don't really compress at all, and then believe that is what other people see when they bind because that is the way it's being represented to them. This form of dysphoria can frequently cause trans people to bind unsafely because of the false belief (the dysphoria) that the binder they have isn't working.

A little less importantly, binders are not meant to be worn as shirts. They aren't tank tops. A person seeing a trans person's binder is, in itself, another dysphoria inducing scenario for most trans people. Wearing it as a shirt defeats the purpose, which is to alleviate dysphoria by making the chest flat both for yourself, but also, often, so you can be perceived closer to your actual identity when in public. Wearing it as a standalone top means that people will not perceive you the way that you're intending to be perceived (unless you want to wear it that way, but that is uncommon). Trans people often become dysphoric even if only part of a strap is exposed. Binding is not meant to be obvious.

And, a less important issue, it is just not pleasing to look at in its current state. The texture feels odd in comparison to the rest of the clothing and I can't quite put my finger on why, but others have expressed similar opinions.

The implementation of binders (and shape wear) does help trans people, but not when it's done incorrectly. It is a medical tool, not a tank top, and because it is a medical tool, I can see why it may be difficult to implement in a way that ensures safety, but many trans people, myself included, are disappointed with the way they currently function in the game. It feels as though the binder asset was made by somebody who made it based off of a vague description rather than based on actual images and functionality and that strangely feels worse than if they hadn't been implemented at all, like we aren't important enough to properly represent.

I am not quite sure how to resolve this issue and suggestions from others are welcome. Some of the people who were talking about it on reddit suggested making the binder an accessory similar to leggings, making it an accessory that changes the chest shape, and, my personal favorite, making it into an option on a dresser or closet like "binding...>put on binder and take off binder" that would compress a sims chest or expand it as needed. I do not think there need to be any moodlets or a limit on how long sims can bind, as that would be rather annoying, but it would be good to see safety and proper functionality taken into consideration.

Overall, I am happy that the sims team is working on including trans people, but it's important to remember to properly represent those that you are trying to include and to not accidentally promote unsafe practices.

Comments

  • sillysimmer3sillysimmer3 Posts: 18 Member
    I think they made it like a top because you can't really layer clothing. They should make it so that you can layer sweaters / jackets etc over other clothing
  • Mariefoxprice83Mariefoxprice83 Posts: 8,106 Member
    I think they made it like a top because you can't really layer clothing. They should make it so that you can layer sweaters / jackets etc over other clothing

    I've been hoping for proper layered clothing since before Sims 3 Seasons came out. Seeing as we have leggings, it's disappointing that other options are not possible.
    Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.
  • GrimlyFiendishGrimlyFiendish Posts: 718 Member
    I wasn't seeing anyone else talking about this and I am sure the sims team meant well, but the way that binders have been implemented isn't just upsetting, it may be dangerous. It feels like there wasn't much effort put into this part of the update and I mean no offense when I say that. I love the addition of glucose monitors and hearing aids and mastectomy scars.

    But to start this post off the most glaring and most dangerous issue, the binder is, by default, a part of the sleepwear category. It should be locked out of the sleepwear category entirely, perhaps have it with a locked icon that when you hover over it presents the player with a message like "Binding while sleeping is dangerous and can cause permanent health issues." I am worried about trans people who are just discovering their identity, especially transgender children and teens, playing the game and thinking that binders are okay to sleep in or even to wear for long periods of time. You absolutely should not, under any circumstances, sleep with a binder on. This is one of the first things mentioned when you look up binders. The reason for this is because binders are meant to compress (more on that later) and they already put pressure on the chest and lungs when you're awake. When you sleep, your breathing is not as strong as it is when you're awake, it is shallow, and binders make that breathing even more shallow, which can lead to a variety of respiratory issues, like obstructive sleep apnea, which can be fatal. Using it when sleeping or wearing it for too long can also cause permanent changes to your bone structure. It can bruise, crack, and even break your ribcage when used incorrectly. A common effect of improper binding is a warped ribcage. The ribcage tries to adjust so that you can breathe while binding, but it only ends up making things worse as your ribcage becomes more concave than it is meant to be and this often causes lifelong breathing issues. All the side effects you get from binding improperly can also cause pneumonia, which, if you continue to bind, can become severe very quickly since it's difficult to cough when binding. It is extremely dangerous. It should not be worn during exercise for similar reasons.

    Now, the less obvious danger is the dysphoria that people are getting from the way the binder was made in the game (there are a few threads on the sims reddit that talk about this specifically). It is true that binders don't completely compress as a flat chest isn't possible, even for cisgender men, but the "compression" that is shown in the sims is more akin to a sports bra than a binder. Even those with very large chests experience a significant change when binding. Binders have stiff fabric on the front and stretchy fabric on the back so that the stiff fabric can, well, compress the chest. It does a very good job at this. The one in the game also has a lighter version of the shading that is used on most female tops and that is not accurate to what it looks like and also makes the chest more obvious than it is meant to.

    It is not only upsetting that the sims binder doesn't work as intended, it is also, in a less obvious way, dangerous. Dysphoria can be and often is deadly, especially in younger trans people. Binding is actually a very big point of stress and dysphoria, despite it also relieving dysphoria. Trans people often feel that their binder is not compressing when it is and they feel that other people can tell they have a larger chest even when the binder is actually making them quite flat. Where the danger comes in is that trans people, particularly teens, will experience that specific form of dysphoria from the improper implementation of binders in the game. The worry is that young trans people will see the sims binders, see how they don't really compress at all, and then believe that is what other people see when they bind because that is the way it's being represented to them. This form of dysphoria can frequently cause trans people to bind unsafely because of the false belief (the dysphoria) that the binder they have isn't working.

    A little less importantly, binders are not meant to be worn as shirts. They aren't tank tops. A person seeing a trans person's binder is, in itself, another dysphoria inducing scenario for most trans people. Wearing it as a shirt defeats the purpose, which is to alleviate dysphoria by making the chest flat both for yourself, but also, often, so you can be perceived closer to your actual identity when in public. Wearing it as a standalone top means that people will not perceive you the way that you're intending to be perceived (unless you want to wear it that way, but that is uncommon). Trans people often become dysphoric even if only part of a strap is exposed. Binding is not meant to be obvious.

    And, a less important issue, it is just not pleasing to look at in its current state. The texture feels odd in comparison to the rest of the clothing and I can't quite put my finger on why, but others have expressed similar opinions.

    The implementation of binders (and shape wear) does help trans people, but not when it's done incorrectly. It is a medical tool, not a tank top, and because it is a medical tool, I can see why it may be difficult to implement in a way that ensures safety, but many trans people, myself included, are disappointed with the way they currently function in the game. It feels as though the binder asset was made by somebody who made it based off of a vague description rather than based on actual images and functionality and that strangely feels worse than if they hadn't been implemented at all, like we aren't important enough to properly represent.

    I am not quite sure how to resolve this issue and suggestions from others are welcome. Some of the people who were talking about it on reddit suggested making the binder an accessory similar to leggings, making it an accessory that changes the chest shape, and, my personal favorite, making it into an option on a dresser or closet like "binding...>put on binder and take off binder" that would compress a sims chest or expand it as needed. I do not think there need to be any moodlets or a limit on how long sims can bind, as that would be rather annoying, but it would be good to see safety and proper functionality taken into consideration.

    Overall, I am happy that the sims team is working on including trans people, but it's
    important to remember to properly represent those that you are trying to include and to not accidentally promote unsafe practices.

    This, all of this. Thank you for expressing my own thoughts so eloquently. I appreciate the effort, but it needs work, and also perhaps consultation with the communities effected as well.
    Occult Simmer (All Occult All The Time)

    Female Simmer from Australia (she/her)

    I had one of my Sims marry the Grim Reaper & now they have a lot of kids.

  • annalephantannalephant Posts: 98 Member
    Brilliantly communicated and thought out piece of feedback, thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts so eloquently.

    I am not from the trans community so do not feel like i am in a place to comment, but must admit that i felt concerned when i found the binder available in the tank tops section of clothing. I really do feel that it should be classified as underwear.

    I feels to me, with the addition of the sintimates collection, that the time has come for CAS to have an additional underwear outfits category now, which could be restricted to a single outfit choice that is layered beneath clothing, used between clothing changes, when getting in to bed/performing wohoo and any other appropriate underwear wearing situations in game- it would then also allow choice of underwear to affect any binding or form boosting functions by applying filters/code to a sim that was wearing the appropriate assets in their underwear outfit category (i.e. if a chest binder is selected, apply the code to flatten chest on sim, if padded shapewear shorties are selected then boost hips and buttocks to give more feminine frame). To me it would solve multiple issues around the addition of underwear to the game in general and help make medical binders/shapewear more functional.
  • Tequila_Rose_13191Tequila_Rose_13191 Posts: 143 Member

    Amen! 👆To all of that!

  • CAPTAIN_NXR7CAPTAIN_NXR7 Posts: 4,451 Member

    I’m happy with the addition of hearing aids and glucose monitors, although apparently combining hearing aids and earrings is not possible either. Layering options in CAS should be reviewed and redesigned across all categories, including underwear and skin details.
    Overall, I am happy that the sims team is working on including trans people, but it's important to remember to properly represent those that you are trying to include and to not accidentally promote unsafe practices.

    Unpopular opinion: I don't agree with the promotion of chest binders and top surgery scars in a game rated 12+ (6+ in some countries) at all.

    If one believes that it is necessary to place health warnings in descriptions for those players that are in fact too young to understand that in reality this item could cause serious health issues, perhaps it makes better sense to not have these items available in the game at all. We might as well introduce cigarettes and booze to The Sims 4 with a warning saying: prolonged regular use of tobacco and alcohol may cause serious harm to health.

    I'm saying all this with the utmost respect for the transcommunity; gender dysphoria is a very serious concept and I also believe that people should be encouraged to be their true selves as long as this does not violate the freedom and safety of others.
    I just don’t believe that the glorification of chestbinders and double mastectomy scars are the right kind of encouragement in a game primarily aimed at kids.
    I say "glorification" because these gender concepts seem to be trending on social media and elsewhere, and we can't dispute the fact that The Sims 4 is all about the latest trends. I'm pretty sure that when Maxis decided to add double mastectomy scars it wasn't because they wanted to represent the many women that already underwent breast cancer surgery.

    Again, this is just my opinion and I'm always open to discussion. To me it just feels like one more step too far in the realm of realism, ONLY because this represents a very real life AND controversial idea in a game that’s targeted toward young teens, aka KIDS who are easily influenced by trending concepts like these.
    If this wasn’t a teen rated game,I would take no issue with it. People can do whatever they want.
  • cspen50cspen50 Posts: 19 Member
    CAPTAIN_NXR7 .. I think your opinion will be more popular than you think . I don't see the need for unhealthy chest binders or even hearing aids etc . Maybe they should have been released as a kit .
  • CAPTAIN_NXR7CAPTAIN_NXR7 Posts: 4,451 Member
    edited February 2023
    cspen50 wrote: »
    CAPTAIN_NXR7 .. I think your opinion will be more popular than you think . I don't see the need for unhealthy chest binders or even hearing aids etc . Maybe they should have been released as a kit .

    I personally believe that in Sims 4 too much emphasis is placed on hyper realism for the sake of inclusion. I'm not a fan of literal representation of every.single.thing that exists in the real world. In my opinion there are more creative ways to "include" something without it being so on - the - nose and potentially dangerous for a generation that already takes everything so literal in a game that's chock full of quirkiness and comical situations.

    That said, in my opinion hearing aids are no different to a pair of glasses; both are quite common and many folks require them to see or hear better, so I can understand the need for accessories like this in basegame. Once you start putting pricetags on these items however, people will complain because you can't include one thing for free and not the other. This is partly why I have trouble with literal representation of cultures, sub cultures, religion and disabilities, including mental health disorders.
    No matter how many consultation meetings team maxis has with community representatives, somewhere someone's going to feel left out or feel offended or disagree with the way these realistic elements are implemented.

    When it comes to chest binders and top surgery scars, it's one of those rare times (indeed, console players exist) I would encourage people to use CC or mods . [EDIT: because Teen rated].
  • cynciecyncie Posts: 4,548 Member

    I personally believe that in Sims 4 too much emphasis is placed on hyper realism for the sake of inclusion. I'm not a fan of literal representation of every.single.thing that exists in the real world. In my opinion there are more creative ways to "include" something without it being so on - the - nose and potentially dangerous for a generation that already takes everything so literal in a game that's chock full of quirkiness and comical situations.


    This has been my concern for a while on a larger scale than just addressing assistive devices and binders. I’m all about inclusion, but emphasizing “identification” with our sims instead of just playing a life sim game has sent us in a direction the game never took before. Now everyone wants to be able to put themselves in the game with absolute accuracy, and I don’t see how that continues to be possible considering all of the many variables we have in real life. Someone is always going to feel neglected or offended. This is also why we get “The Sims is a real life simulation, get rid of occults” hue and cry, when the game has never before been hyper-realistic. There is now the perception, that the Sims team is leaning into, that the game is about living your life through the game. So, in that context, representation absolutely does matter. But that is a shift away from the original “playing with life” concept where the player is outside of this little world they control. Right now, the Sims Team is trying to have it both ways and are getting criticism from both sides. They might need to take some time to settle their identity crisis.

  • annalephantannalephant Posts: 98 Member


    I think you raise some valid points, but would say as a person with multiple complex health issues/disabilities, who uses the game as both a form of escapism & relaxation, but also finds some enjoyment and validation in being able to be realistically represented in game as a disabled person... that it doesn't have to be so black and white. Like you say- hearing aids are pretty mainstream as disability aids go, as are glasses and I think that continuous glucose monitors and insulin pumps are probably a lot more common these days than perhaps some non-diabetics realise, particularly since they got NHS funding here in the UK, for example...


    However, I use an electric wheelchair to move around as well as crutches. I'm also normalised to medical equipment like non-invasive ventilation, nebulisers, and medical ports like midlines, picc-lines hickman-lines, catheters and stomas because this is the world that I and my friends exist in.

    Does that mean that i think that Maxis should be putting all these things in to the game - absolutely not.


    There might be space down the line for putting walking sticks in for the elder sims and to suggest walking impairments. Perhaps one day a stoma/generic port might be nice representation for a variety of disabilities. But, the truth is that game mechanics really limit what can physically be achieved in game play and for me i am not obsessing over the need to be represented in a wheelchair when that is a HUGE amount of animation work for developers. There are other ways to introduce disability as a concept in to my stories and to represent disability in game.

    For too many people 'disabled = wheelchair', when for the vast majority of disabled people 'disabled does NOT = wheelchair'. Instead those little additions like putting in hearing aids, and walking canes and other fairly simple to design/code visual representations of disability are really simple ways to give my sim community diversity and representation. I also like the idea of the team wisely selecting items that can have a dual purpose- hearing aids can be used to create the character of an elderly sim, as much as they are used to create a young deaf sim, the same way introducing canes could be dually used to add more gameplay/character for elders but at the same time allow players who WANT to, to use canes on younger sims whom they consider to have a mobility impairment.


    So, whilst i get your point that sims wasn't supposed to be about hyper realism originally, and that by adding some disability aids you are going to get people with other disabilities demanding that they are catered for too... I'm not sure that will be the case.


    I think we understand the limitations of the game and budgets. I think that we appreciate any disability representation at all in game and that when you live life as a disabled person in a world where we are often minimised and forgotten about, to be told that we don't need to be able to recreate ourselves because it's not a real life-simulator I dunno... it doesn't sit right with me. I wouldn't feel right saying to someone that they don't need to be able to represent their skin colour, their gender, their sexuality, their age or their religion in game and for me disability is no different.


    That said, the concern about the game being aimed at teens and the safety aspect of binders, is something that has to be considered. Personally i feel if they are classified as underwear and not allowed to be worn by children/teens in game and not allowed to be worn as a nightwear item then that would cover enough safety aspects in their own rights. Anything further is down to a player to research for themselves in the same way I wouldn't be expecting maxis to be taking responsibility for the safety of my teen's sexual health after discovering Wohoo in the game. BUT if they were for some reason to come back around to the decision again and fall on the side of "this is something that needs to be added to the game as mods/cc because of the age rating" I would understand and respect that decision and kind of hope that members of the trans community could maybe understand why. but honestly, there are many other aspects of the game that have dangers associated with them (several of which are significantly more deadly) that you have to assume that people playing the game would take the time to research and understand for themselves and not blindly follow a computer game for ideas/instruction without independent thought.

  • NushkaNushka Posts: 380 Member
    edited February 2023

    I've always thought there's a lot of hypocrisy when it's never been a problem for teenage cis girls to use high impact underwear and compression wear for sports (pole vaulters, swimmers, etc) while it's suddenly "unhealthy" and "immoral" to allow trans AFAB teens to use binders.


    Edited, my bad

    Happy simming!
  • Ninja-Dan22Ninja-Dan22 Posts: 117 Member

    It's the trans guys who use binders! But I agree that it doesn't seem unhealthy for teens to know they exsist, in fact it could be helpful to teens who are unsure about their gender.

  • NushkaNushka Posts: 380 Member

    @Ninja-Dan22 you're right, my bad, I've edited my comment.

    Happy simming!
  • LeGardePourpreLeGardePourpre Posts: 15,176 Member
    edited February 2023
    Nobody complains about sims wearing a corset (basegame 2014) ?

    The Sims is a game where the players do what they want, it's not a game which tells them how to be.

    Note :
    Before reading this thread, I thought it was a crop top. I will probably use it like this.

    4j9jdp1b4u5z.jpeg
    Post edited by LeGardePourpre on
  • SimmingalSimmingal Posts: 8,887 Member
    edited February 2023
    honestly I'll be using the so called binder as normal top probably because it doesn't even bind anything and it kind of just looks like tanktop especially in the more colorful swatches

    I feel like to make it seem binding i'd have to edit sim form or something instead

    and i guess the thing they were really after was really just the option of similar looking underwear people could use for their trans sims for storytelling purposes seeing how we now have the whole meundies whatnot
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  • GrimlyFiendishGrimlyFiendish Posts: 718 Member
    Nushka wrote: »
    I've always thought there's a lot of hypocrisy when it's never been a problem for teenage cis girls to use high impact underwear and compression wear for sports (pole vaulters, swimmers, etc) while it's suddenly "unhealthy" and "immoral" to allow trans AFAB teens to use binders.

    Edited, my bad

    I have no issue with the Sims including a binder for trans sims, I've wanted more trans guy and transmasculine representation for a while (btw, not trans myself, I just have some very good trans male friends). What I do have a very strong objection to; however, is a binder being treated like a fashion accessory, instead of the often life saving emotion and mental health (medical) support device that it actually is. Also I believe there are legitimate concerns with triggering gender dysphoria in actual trans men who play the games, as the OP outlined in their original post. I'm definitely for inclusivity in the game, including having a binder accessible for those Simmers who wish to play a trans character scenario; what I don't like though is tokenism and to me the binder issue skates a little too close to that.

    Occult Simmer (All Occult All The Time)

    Female Simmer from Australia (she/her)

    I had one of my Sims marry the Grim Reaper & now they have a lot of kids.

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