I remembered when I was happily surprised to be represented in Sims in the early days of Sims 1......
You know... back in the day.....When gay and lesbian folks were not allowed to be legally married (and some countries still don't allow this and some places are even still dangerous and prejudiced for many LGBTQ+ folks, including places in US)... when LGBTQ+ folks were dealing with lots more prejudice, or even be allowed to be shown kissing or having any public displays of affection. When LGBTQ+ folks were bullied, insulted, belittled, killed.... And still dealing with a lot of that (but more subtle) to this day around the world....
If anyone dared to show LGBTQ+ couples, or ask gay marriage, or gay couples to be shown on the media, etc, then they're being shouted down as being "too political", "too controversial", "gross/disgusting", etc.
Some countries even criminalized (and still do) LGBT relationships. Gay/lesbian/trans folks were bullied and even killed. (Look up LGBT history.)
Amazing how much progress has been made, huh? (And we STILL have a looong way to go, as there is still lots of prejudice towards LGBT+ and PoC folks even today).
Sims had gay/lesbian couples since The Sims, which was a big deal and a great step in progress. This was BEFORE gay marriage was even legalized in real life!
I also remembered back when Sims 2 had what, "unions", NOT marriage! (Basically: Only the straight sims in Sims 2 had the word "marriage" in their unions, while gay/lesbian folks had only the "union" word.)
Sims has ALWAYS been about being inclusive, so I'm really glad other folks are getting represented.
Remember, us LGBT folks still face prejudice around the world over, and only some countries have recently added legalized gay marriage. And yet, the Sims games still remembered to still represent us (gay/lesbian/bi).
Now, another minority wishes to be represented, so that's good and another step for progress. Sims was always taking steps forward for folks. Sims games should always be giving us options and ways to control our world, so hopefully, everyone can have optional toggles or ways to control the way their sims are represented.
Did EA ever make a big deal out of homosexual sims though? Did they ever put (straight/gay) next to a sim’s name? Why is everything so in your face now? Why Lia Hauata (she/her) but not Brent Hacking (gay)? Let‘s face it. This isn‘t about representation but PR. They need everyone know how pRoGrEsSivE they are. Just like all the celebrities that take a whole camera and sounds team with them when they travel to African countries to ‘help‘ poor brown babies.
@dearie_blossom If someone has multiple pronouns, any one is fine to use. I hope that answers your question.
It does matter. While in many cases misgendering is innocent and accidental there’s often times where it’s purposeful and harmful. For many it is just a minor annoyance and many people have no problem making the correction. As I said it happens to me all the time, its a quick and easy correction but also one I don’t have to make if I have my pronouns displayed in the first place.
You lost me when you brought up getting harassed at the club and cheating spouses 😂😂. If someone is being harassed or cheating there are different issues at hand. We are forced to make assumptions, like I said, just be mindful that sometimes when you assume someone else’s pronouns you can be wrong, they may correct you, and you should adjust going forward. I’ve had plenty of times where someone has had to correct me on their gender irl. Not everyone gender presentation lines up with their pronoun choices. It’s okay to make an assumption and be right, it’s okay to make an assumption and be wrong, be corrected, and change.
Honestly if people spelled their name phonetically that would be helpful for many. I have a difficult last name that is often mispronounced. It would be helpful to see how names are sounded out and would help to normalize less common names/pronunciations No one’s asking any one to walk on eggshells, just to be kind and considerate, there’s really nothing to debate. You asked how this played out irl and I gave you some examples. We were both kind and considerate.
I remembered when I was happily surprised to be represented in Sims in the early days of Sims 1......
You know... back in the day.....When gay and lesbian folks were not allowed to be legally married (and some countries still don't allow this and some places are even still dangerous and prejudiced for many LGBTQ+ folks, including places in US)... when LGBTQ+ folks were dealing with lots more prejudice, or even be allowed to be shown kissing or having any public displays of affection. When LGBTQ+ folks were bullied, insulted, belittled, killed.... And still dealing with a lot of that (but more subtle) to this day around the world....
If anyone dared to show LGBTQ+ couples, or ask gay marriage, or gay couples to be shown on the media, etc, then they're being shouted down as being "too political", "too controversial", "gross/disgusting", etc.
Some countries even criminalized (and still do) LGBT relationships. Gay/lesbian/trans folks were bullied and even killed. (Look up LGBT history.)
Amazing how much progress has been made, huh? (And we STILL have a looong way to go, as there is still lots of prejudice towards LGBT+ and PoC folks even today).
Sims had gay/lesbian couples since The Sims, which was a big deal and a great step in progress. This was BEFORE gay marriage was even legalized in real life!
I also remembered back when Sims 2 had what, "unions", NOT marriage! (Basically: Only the straight sims in Sims 2 had the word "marriage" in their unions, while gay/lesbian folks had only the "union" word.)
Sims has ALWAYS been about being inclusive, so I'm really glad other folks are getting represented.
Remember, us LGBT folks still face prejudice around the world over, and only some countries have recently added legalized gay marriage. And yet, the Sims games still remembered to still represent us (gay/lesbian/bi).
Now, another minority wishes to be represented, so that's good and another step for progress. Sims was always taking steps forward for folks. Sims games should always be giving us options and ways to control our world, so hopefully, everyone can have optional toggles or ways to control the way their sims are represented.
Did EA ever make a big deal out of homosexual sims though? Did they ever put (straight/gay) next to a sim’s name? Why is everything so in your face now? Why Lia Hauata (she/her) but not Brent Hacking (gay)? Let‘s face it. This isn‘t about representation but PR. They need everyone know how pRoGrEsSivE they are. Just like all the celebrities that take a whole camera and sounds team with them when they travel to African countries to ‘help‘ poor brown babies.
Everything seems in your face now because now underrepresented people are now allowed to be their true genders without being bullied or killed.
You seem to be confusing everyday folks who just want to be represented with.... show-off selfish celebrities or extremist folks who are smug and in your face...?
Anyway, I said my piece and I'm gonna leave and ignore this thread alone. This (and the other pronouns thread) is a firestorm of a thread, lol...
It is about how in-your-face this has become. I don't take seriously the types who feel the need to list pronouns. That is my first clue to that I have no need to engage in any conversation or interactions. Experiences and observations have shown those types to be hostile if someone does not agree with them 100%. I am of a conservative mindset. I view the listing of pronouns to just be a trendy fad. Eventually it will be. MY hope is that it is not so in-your-face in-game, because that means this game will become 100% unplayable for me. As for the listing multiple, I can only predict it would need to be customized in that way. I plan to not touch the feature, so hopefully it is based on in-game body type.
@dearie_blossom If someone has multiple pronouns, any one is fine to use. I hope that answers your question.
See, I was told that this wrong. There are definitely people prefer one set of pronouns over the other depending on their mood or whatever. It‘s impossible to keep up.
You lost me when you brought up getting harassed at the club and cheating spouses 😂😂.
As I said. Real life examples. You usually don’t use pronouns when talking TO someone but when talking ABOUT someone. Gossiping, complaining, reminiscing about a funny incident, etc. Many of the incidents involving people you don’t know. You very, very rarely know someone‘s preferred pronouns and therefore making a big deal out of it is plain stupid. Misgendering is an annoyance, nothing more.
Honestly if people spelled their name phonetically that would be helpful for many. I have a difficult last name that is often mispronounced. It would be helpful to see how names are sounded out and would help to normalize less common names/pronunciations
I don‘t agree with this. I‘m not going to demand Brenda and James to write their name in phonetic alphabet just because Emma keeps mispronouncing my name. Just because something annoys you doesn’t mean you should inconvenience everyone else…
Everything seems in your face now because now underrepresented people are now allowed to be their true genders without being bullied or killed.
You people are always doing the most. Good to know that EA single-handedly stopped the killing of transgender people with a pronouns update though. I hope they put sexual orientation next to a sim‘s name soon to stop the killing of gay people. And then religion, and race. Meet my sim Ashley (áʃlɪj she/her they/them gay jewish half Italian half Native American). The more boxes you put people in the better.
It is about how in-your-face this has become. I don't take seriously the types who feel the need to list pronouns. That is my first clue to that I have no need to engage in any conversation or interactions. Experiences and observations have shown those types to be hostile if someone does not agree with them 100%. I am of a conservative mindset. I view the listing of pronouns to just be a trendy fad. Eventually it will be. MY hope is that it is not so in-your-face in-game, because that means this game will become 100% unplayable for me. As for the listing multiple, I can only predict it would need to be customized in that way. I plan to not touch the feature, so hopefully it is based on in-game body type.
You don't have to agree with anyone 100%. You just need to respect their choices.
ETA: I have my pronouns in my signature so I'll understand if you ignore this post. 👍🏼
Everything seems in your face now because now underrepresented people are now allowed to be their true genders without being bullied or killed.
You people are always doing the most. Good to know that EA single-handedly stopped the killing of transgender people with a pronouns update though. I hope they put sexual orientation next to a sim‘s name soon to stop the killing of gay people. And then religion, and race. Meet my sim Ashley (áʃlɪj she/her they/them gay jewish half Italian half Native American). The more boxes you put people in the better.
*takes a deep breath*
No, but it will help people who are different BE ACCEPTED. Being more accepted and getting more accepted in society, and the more exposure to different people in the media, especially those underrepresented = less tolerance for harassment and bullying and other violent bigoted acts towards folks who are different or underrepresented.
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify before I leave this thread alone. Sorry to bother everyone.
*takes a deep breath*
No, but it will help people who are different BE ACCEPTED. Being more accepted and getting more accepted in society, and the more exposure to different people in the media, especially those underrepresented = less tolerance for harassment and bullying and other violent bigoted acts towards folks who are different or underrepresented.
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify before I leave this thread alone. Sorry to bother everyone.
While I support the concept of what you're saying, I disagree that it will necessarily help. The aggressive and incessent push for greater acceptance and inclusivity by the left is the reason that the vile and bigoted on the right have become so empowered that they have gained massive political influence in the US and some other countries.
i.e. whether it is actually helping or harming in the long run has yet to be seen, but there are many signs pointing to the latter. As much as it pains me to see it.
*takes a deep breath*
No, but it will help people who are different BE ACCEPTED. Being more accepted and getting more accepted in society, and the more exposure to different people in the media, especially those underrepresented = less tolerance for harassment and bullying and other violent bigoted acts towards folks who are different or underrepresented.
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify before I leave this thread alone. Sorry to bother everyone.
While I support the concept of what you're saying, I disagree that it will necessarily help. The aggressive and incessent push for greater acceptance and inclusivity by the left is the reason that the vile and bigoted on the right have become so empowered that they have gained massive political influence in the US and some other countries.
i.e. whether it is actually helping or harming in the long run has yet to be seen, but there are many signs pointing to the latter. As much as it pains me to see it.
Eh, it‘s not only the right that are fed up with this movement… A lot of left-wing people are finding themselves politically homeless as left-wing parties increasingly cater to the extreme left (aka Twitter wokeristas) and are demonizing and pushing away the center left.
Eh, it‘s not only the right that are fed up with this movement… A lot of left-wing people are finding themselves politically homeless as left-wing parties increasingly cater to the extreme left (aka Twitter wokeristas) and are demonizing and pushing away the center left.
Uh...that was sorta the point of what I said. It's those left-wing (and centrist) people feeling politically homeless that are the reason for the gains by the right wing political parties.
*takes a deep breath*
No, but it will help people who are different BE ACCEPTED. Being more accepted and getting more accepted in society, and the more exposure to different people in the media, especially those underrepresented = less tolerance for harassment and bullying and other violent bigoted acts towards folks who are different or underrepresented.
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify before I leave this thread alone. Sorry to bother everyone.
While I support the concept of what you're saying, I disagree that it will necessarily help. The aggressive and incessent push for greater acceptance and inclusivity by the left is the reason that the vile and bigoted on the right have become so empowered that they have gained massive political influence in the US and some other countries.
i.e. whether it is actually helping or harming in the long run has yet to be seen, but there are many signs pointing to the latter. As much as it pains me to see it.
It's a slow pace kind of progress. There will always be people who will be bigoted/hateful but a lot of people just don't understand it cause they don't see it. But once it becomes more prominent and more mainstream people will adjust.
During time periods where there is a lot of change in a relatively short amount of time there is a lot of knee-jerk reactions and those negative sentiments will in particular fester/spread because of societal anxiety about change but in the long run things will improve. Not to mention there are other aspects at play and not just social changes.
At the end of the day, this may not change anything irl but it does put it in the mainstream and may open doors for people. Maybe not the sims franchise itself but perhaps gaming media as a whole.
Pronouns really isnt a big deal and honestly could save people a lot of headache irl. I wish there was a way to just have a label sticker on your person to indicate what pronouns you use cause not everyone irl is so easy to recognize and for some they may get offended super quick if you misgender them.
In my days working at fast food, once doing drive thru a car came with a very high pitched/feminine sounding voice and I assumed it was a woman and called the "ma'am" (Southern habit). They pulled up and they were in fact a man (with his two kids in the back) and boy that man looked mighty annoyed. I was so embarrassed at the time.
Not the same scenario applicable to this, but there are plenty of people who are androgynous enough (imo) that I just don't know what to use and am afraid to ask cause I could offend them. There are lot of cases irl its just hard to tell and discussing it more openly/casually even irl would be much nicer imo.
It's a slow pace kind of progress. There will always be people who will be bigoted/hateful but a lot of people just don't understand it cause they don't see it. But once it becomes more prominent and more mainstream people will adjust.
During time periods where there is a lot of change in a relatively short amount of time there is a lot of knee-jerk reactions and those negative sentiments will in particular fester/spread because of societal anxiety about change but in the long run things will improve. Not to mention there are other aspects at play and not just social changes.
You are making the, mistaken, assumption that progress is always forward.
Gay relationships were perfectly acceptable and normalized in Western Civilization 2,000 years ago (i.e. the Roman Empire). Changes to the power and political structure in Europe completely reversed that normalization.
While the gains over the last 100 years have been slow, the left is pushing a lot harder for the change to be more rapid now and it is entirely possible that this could lead to a political/power shift that ends up backfiring on them. Only time will tell, but your expectation that "in the long run things will improve" is ignoring history. It's something to hope for, but a mistake to count on it.
Eh, it‘s not only the right that are fed up with this movement… A lot of left-wing people are finding themselves politically homeless as left-wing parties increasingly cater to the extreme left (aka Twitter wokeristas) and are demonizing and pushing away the center left.
Uh...that was sorta the point of what I said. It's those left-wing (and centrist) people feeling politically homeless that are the reason for the gains by the right wing political parties.
I misunderstood then, sorry. It’s just that the “on the right“ bugged me. Not everyone that disagrees with this movement is on the right. This is an assumption a lot of far left people make as well as left-wing politicians and parties. They think if you don’t agree with them 100% you must be from the other camp.
I misunderstood then, sorry. It’s just that the “on the right“ bugged me. Not everyone that disagrees with this movement is on the right. This is an assumption a lot of far left people make as well as left-wing politicians and parties. They think if you don’t agree with them 100% you must be from the other camp.
Most people are neither left nor right, but more central with ideologies that extend in both directions depending on the specific topic. You aren't wrong that those who are far left and far right seem to forget that literally all the time.
I think its good to respect peoples choices. Some though want you to believe the same as them. And if you dont, in their mind, you arent being respectul, in fact youre being prejudiced which isnt true. There are people who are extreme in their views and if you dont accept it (not just respect) they will hate you for it.
For example, ive seen posts saying if youre not black its racist for you to draw black characters. The post wasnt even saying avoid black stereotypes, it was saying dont draw black characters period. Now does that make any sense? Thats an extreme view. I can respect your choice to believe that. But i dont accept it.
One arguement ive had with someone is the use of romanization when learning a language. For example (this is pinyin), you can write 你好 as nihao. Or こんにちは is konnichiwa. The 'roman' letter is romanization. During a discussion about asian stereotypes and yellowface usage, someone said they were tired of koreaboos using oppa, saranghae everywhere and all romanization is harmful. I disagreed. Some need this to learn a language. Using romanization is fine, but projecting stereotypes isnt good. She disagreed. She said ALL romanization is yellowface and racist. And told me because im not Asian, I couldnt disagree with her because she was the minority group we were talking about. And i was 'literally being racist and projecting asian stereotypes' by disagreeing with her. Can I respect her right to have that view? Sure. Do I accept it? Of course not.
Some believe gender doesnt exist, or is different from sex. Some believe you can have multiple genders. Some think using gender is unnecessary or some clothing is unnecessarily gendered.
I do not agree with this nor believe it. Can i accept your choice to believe it? Sure. Can I respect you as a human being? Of course. Do I think you should be harassed, lose rights, be attacked for this? Absolutely not. Do i accept it? No. But I can still respect you. If you cant respect my perspective either, then theres nothing I can do for you.
Post edited by StrawberryYogurt on
The Sims has currently lost its identity. Bring it back for TS5
From what I've seen you can input custom pronouns, so if you want it to be mixed rather than she/her/hers, you could change the her to "their" and then the game will use feminine pronouns for some text strings and neutral for others
It's a slow pace kind of progress. There will always be people who will be bigoted/hateful but a lot of people just don't understand it cause they don't see it. But once it becomes more prominent and more mainstream people will adjust.
During time periods where there is a lot of change in a relatively short amount of time there is a lot of knee-jerk reactions and those negative sentiments will in particular fester/spread because of societal anxiety about change but in the long run things will improve. Not to mention there are other aspects at play and not just social changes.
You are making the, mistaken, assumption that progress is always forward.
Gay relationships were perfectly acceptable and normalized in Western Civilization 2,000 years ago (i.e. the Roman Empire). Changes to the power and political structure in Europe completely reversed that normalization.
While the gains over the last 100 years have been slow, the left is pushing a lot harder for the change to be more rapid now and it is entirely possible that this could lead to a political/power shift that ends up backfiring on them. Only time will tell, but your expectation that "in the long run things will improve" is ignoring history. It's something to hope for, but a mistake to count on it.
While you are correct that it's not always linear/forward (I think of it as a more push-pull kind of thing personally that evolves as the culture itself is always evolving/changing), I think there are some things that, have progressed/changed so majorily that it would take some kind of calamity to the society to destabilize it to revert back to those beliefs/ideals/systems.
I think comparing gay relationships now to 2,000 years ago is also rather unfair. I'm not well versed in socio-political dynamics of that time period, but I'm pretty confident to say that the values/ideals of that society are too different to really compare directly. The typical marriage/'relationships' of any culture/time period is going to be different and it's not fair to compare 100%. Our modern idea of 'same sex relationships' (and relationships as a whole, marriages) now is vastly different; not including the differences between classes back then and their different expectations (for things like marriage, carrying on lineage, etc.). Our concept of a 'citizen' is much different from Roman Empire's standards, let alone of what they think about same-sex relationships.
I do get what you meant, however. Yes, certain events in history did cause a major regress for that area and would later affect many other countries later on, but between that 2,000 years period from then and now there were other societies who also were more accepting of same-sex relationships (of course, with their own understanding of what that is, how it looks, and how it fits/functions in that society). It waxes and wanes depending on when + where you are in history.
I also think it's unfair to say that the rise in hate/bigot beliefs is because of the rapid/aggressive push for change (or it felt like you were implying/saying it was the only reason). It is certainly a prominent contending factor (and a big one), but it's not the only reason. Look at the time period of when these two things arrived; late 90s to 2000s. That's right when the internet kicked off + rapid change in technology (+ economic change/struggles at least for the US, can't say for Europe personally but I imagine its similar). Anytime you have major change in a society these kind of things are going to come up. Not to mention a lot of the nature of the internet (certain spaces) is what allowed the spread of the hateful sentiments in the first place.
I'm not saying you're wrong that the push for social change has caused a lot of anxiety/pullback/rise in hateful beliefs, but I feel like it's unfair to say that is the only reason it has gotten so big. And while is a significant risk of it failing and causing a reverse of progress for social issues; I feel like ultimately it will still work out in the end because these groups tend to be so destructive in nature that while they can cause a lot of immediate major damage they will ultimately burn out or self-destruct on their own (or evolve into something else and target another group--cause at the end of the day they're just looking for a scapegoat to blame their problems on). I could be wrong, but for the sake of my sanity I want to think more positively (albeit cautious).
~~~~~
Nobody has to like the inclusion of pronouns. While I personally think the idea of adding multiple pronouns per sim is unnecessary (the coding already is going to be a lot of work); I can understand why other people may want it. IRL some folks may use both and want others to know that so asking that question about multiple ones makes sense. As someone who is on the nonbinary spectrum, I understand. However, the pronoun system is already a lot of work as it is so I think it is asking too much and ultimately unnecessary due to the nature of CAS and that you can change stuff on a dime with no problems; we can just flipflop it anytime. If this was a multiplayer game, I could see use of having multiple ones at least as an indicator/tag for bios, but for solo play nah.
But what I don't understand is why people are so against the pronoun system itself (ignoring the "it's a waste of time" belief/argument). Even after we were told that it is optional and it's not "just have everyone use they; no more she/her or he/him" like a lot of people were worried about initially. I can 100% understand the concern about not wanting to see the pronouns right below a sim's name cause I would find that distracting myself (and I want the pronoun system). Having it tucked away in the profile or something would be ideal.
Even if you play with strictly cisgender sims and what not; this doesn't take anything away. If premades are given customized pronouns, you can change the few who MIGHT get flagged for it. Just like you can break up gay premades or just delete them entirely; if it's not for you, just omit it. You have that control.
For most players, all this will be is an extra step (and seemingly an optional one). Those who were complaining about being addressed as 'they' in the recent game text can use the pronouns as to (hopefully) ensure that you are addressed properly. Just like a lot of nonbinary players have been wanting to be properly addressed as for a while. Not all of them, of course. Some are fine using she/her or he/him, but many do prefer they.
Everybody uses pronouns irl. Most people never had to really think about it before, and I feel like many don't like having to think about it for whatever reason. But regardless its inclusion doesn't change anything, not really. The only change is recognizing which one you want to use + having some customization ~options~. Even if you don't agree with things like nonbinary identity, gender being more than man and woman, etc.; you can still just keep doing what you've been doing and just ignore other stuff.
I may never really understand the true need for multiple pronouns but I respect people's choices.
If whatever Team Maxis develops isn't going to clutter up the UI and mess up game mechanics, I couldn't care less what way folks want to be represented.
All I need is a bunch of great tools and systems that work and hey, perhaps some additional, interesting, bug-less game play.
And don't worry, I don't expect people to call me Charlie The Cocker Spaniel on Wednesday afternoons just because that's how I feel sometimes.
"Oh hi, ehr.....Danny, right?"
"No I'm not Danny. I'm Charlie."
"I'm so sorry. I thought you said your name was Danny."
"It's Charlie. I'm Danny on Mondays. Danny The Dude. I'd really prefer it if you call me Charlie today."
"Oh. Ok...yeah, sure, Charlie..may I borrow some sugar?"
"I haven't got any sugar. I've only got dog biscuits. I'm a Cocker Spaniel."
"Right. Right....you're a talking dog?"
"Yes. Can't you see that?"
"Not really. You look exactly like the same guy I spoke to on Monday."
"I AM the same guy. I just ... FEEL more like a Charlie and a dog. A Cocker Spaniel to be precise."
"Oh, Ok. I see."
"Why don't you come back tomorrow and ask for sugar?"
"And... what would be the advantage?"
"Tomorrow I'm Jane Sugarcane. You will like me a lot better."
That gender and sex are two distinct human characteristics is accepted by science and medicine, so calling it a mere belief displays ignorance. If people were merely delusional as would be someone who thinks they are a dog, they would be getting psychiatric help, not gender affirming care but apparently a lot of people have not read up on why doctors no longer treat this as a psychiatric disorder, as they once did being gay, also. When we learn, we update our worldview to accommodate what science has discovered.
As for it being fun to mock, I'll let those words stand for themselves as evidence if intention here.
I once mocked it out of ignorance too so I can have compassion for those who don't know any better yet, and try to educate instead of mock their ignorance on the subject.
But I would invite people to find out why things aren't what we used to think they were before launching dismissals or ridicule.
I've already posted that this feature will be completely optional for every player. If you can't post here without bemoaning the "woke" or invoking religion, politics or clutching pearls because we're trying to be inclusive to a group of people then just don't post.
Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement, and success have no meaning.
Found a Bug? Let us know here. Having a technical issue with your game? Reach out to us here.
Comments
Did EA ever make a big deal out of homosexual sims though? Did they ever put (straight/gay) next to a sim’s name? Why is everything so in your face now? Why Lia Hauata (she/her) but not Brent Hacking (gay)? Let‘s face it. This isn‘t about representation but PR. They need everyone know how pRoGrEsSivE they are. Just like all the celebrities that take a whole camera and sounds team with them when they travel to African countries to ‘help‘ poor brown babies.
It does matter. While in many cases misgendering is innocent and accidental there’s often times where it’s purposeful and harmful. For many it is just a minor annoyance and many people have no problem making the correction. As I said it happens to me all the time, its a quick and easy correction but also one I don’t have to make if I have my pronouns displayed in the first place.
You lost me when you brought up getting harassed at the club and cheating spouses 😂😂. If someone is being harassed or cheating there are different issues at hand. We are forced to make assumptions, like I said, just be mindful that sometimes when you assume someone else’s pronouns you can be wrong, they may correct you, and you should adjust going forward. I’ve had plenty of times where someone has had to correct me on their gender irl. Not everyone gender presentation lines up with their pronoun choices. It’s okay to make an assumption and be right, it’s okay to make an assumption and be wrong, be corrected, and change.
Honestly if people spelled their name phonetically that would be helpful for many. I have a difficult last name that is often mispronounced. It would be helpful to see how names are sounded out and would help to normalize less common names/pronunciations
Everything seems in your face now because now underrepresented people are now allowed to be their true genders without being bullied or killed.
You seem to be confusing everyday folks who just want to be represented with.... show-off selfish celebrities or extremist folks who are smug and in your face...?
Anyway, I said my piece and I'm gonna leave and ignore this thread alone. This (and the other pronouns thread) is a firestorm of a thread, lol...
(She/her)
It is about how in-your-face this has become. I don't take seriously the types who feel the need to list pronouns. That is my first clue to that I have no need to engage in any conversation or interactions. Experiences and observations have shown those types to be hostile if someone does not agree with them 100%. I am of a conservative mindset. I view the listing of pronouns to just be a trendy fad. Eventually it will be. MY hope is that it is not so in-your-face in-game, because that means this game will become 100% unplayable for me. As for the listing multiple, I can only predict it would need to be customized in that way. I plan to not touch the feature, so hopefully it is based on in-game body type.
See, I was told that this wrong. There are definitely people prefer one set of pronouns over the other depending on their mood or whatever. It‘s impossible to keep up.
As I said. Real life examples. You usually don’t use pronouns when talking TO someone but when talking ABOUT someone. Gossiping, complaining, reminiscing about a funny incident, etc. Many of the incidents involving people you don’t know. You very, very rarely know someone‘s preferred pronouns and therefore making a big deal out of it is plain stupid. Misgendering is an annoyance, nothing more.
I don‘t agree with this. I‘m not going to demand Brenda and James to write their name in phonetic alphabet just because Emma keeps mispronouncing my name. Just because something annoys you doesn’t mean you should inconvenience everyone else…
They definitely do.
You people are always doing the most. Good to know that EA single-handedly stopped the killing of transgender people with a pronouns update though. I hope they put sexual orientation next to a sim‘s name soon to stop the killing of gay people. And then religion, and race. Meet my sim Ashley (áʃlɪj she/her they/them gay jewish half Italian half Native American). The more boxes you put people in the better.
You don't have to agree with anyone 100%. You just need to respect their choices.
ETA: I have my pronouns in my signature so I'll understand if you ignore this post. 👍🏼
*takes a deep breath*
No, but it will help people who are different BE ACCEPTED. Being more accepted and getting more accepted in society, and the more exposure to different people in the media, especially those underrepresented = less tolerance for harassment and bullying and other violent bigoted acts towards folks who are different or underrepresented.
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify before I leave this thread alone. Sorry to bother everyone.
(She/her)
While I support the concept of what you're saying, I disagree that it will necessarily help. The aggressive and incessent push for greater acceptance and inclusivity by the left is the reason that the vile and bigoted on the right have become so empowered that they have gained massive political influence in the US and some other countries.
i.e. whether it is actually helping or harming in the long run has yet to be seen, but there are many signs pointing to the latter. As much as it pains me to see it.
The Winters family Tree --- My Mods
Uh...that was sorta the point of what I said. It's those left-wing (and centrist) people feeling politically homeless that are the reason for the gains by the right wing political parties.
The Winters family Tree --- My Mods
It's a slow pace kind of progress. There will always be people who will be bigoted/hateful but a lot of people just don't understand it cause they don't see it. But once it becomes more prominent and more mainstream people will adjust.
During time periods where there is a lot of change in a relatively short amount of time there is a lot of knee-jerk reactions and those negative sentiments will in particular fester/spread because of societal anxiety about change but in the long run things will improve. Not to mention there are other aspects at play and not just social changes.
At the end of the day, this may not change anything irl but it does put it in the mainstream and may open doors for people. Maybe not the sims franchise itself but perhaps gaming media as a whole.
Pronouns really isnt a big deal and honestly could save people a lot of headache irl. I wish there was a way to just have a label sticker on your person to indicate what pronouns you use cause not everyone irl is so easy to recognize and for some they may get offended super quick if you misgender them.
In my days working at fast food, once doing drive thru a car came with a very high pitched/feminine sounding voice and I assumed it was a woman and called the "ma'am" (Southern habit). They pulled up and they were in fact a man (with his two kids in the back) and boy that man looked mighty annoyed. I was so embarrassed at the time.
Not the same scenario applicable to this, but there are plenty of people who are androgynous enough (imo) that I just don't know what to use and am afraid to ask cause I could offend them. There are lot of cases irl its just hard to tell and discussing it more openly/casually even irl would be much nicer imo.
Gay relationships were perfectly acceptable and normalized in Western Civilization 2,000 years ago (i.e. the Roman Empire). Changes to the power and political structure in Europe completely reversed that normalization.
While the gains over the last 100 years have been slow, the left is pushing a lot harder for the change to be more rapid now and it is entirely possible that this could lead to a political/power shift that ends up backfiring on them. Only time will tell, but your expectation that "in the long run things will improve" is ignoring history. It's something to hope for, but a mistake to count on it.
The Winters family Tree --- My Mods
Most people are neither left nor right, but more central with ideologies that extend in both directions depending on the specific topic. You aren't wrong that those who are far left and far right seem to forget that literally all the time.
The Winters family Tree --- My Mods
For example, ive seen posts saying if youre not black its racist for you to draw black characters. The post wasnt even saying avoid black stereotypes, it was saying dont draw black characters period. Now does that make any sense? Thats an extreme view. I can respect your choice to believe that. But i dont accept it.
One arguement ive had with someone is the use of romanization when learning a language. For example (this is pinyin), you can write 你好 as nihao. Or こんにちは is konnichiwa. The 'roman' letter is romanization. During a discussion about asian stereotypes and yellowface usage, someone said they were tired of koreaboos using oppa, saranghae everywhere and all romanization is harmful. I disagreed. Some need this to learn a language. Using romanization is fine, but projecting stereotypes isnt good. She disagreed. She said ALL romanization is yellowface and racist. And told me because im not Asian, I couldnt disagree with her because she was the minority group we were talking about. And i was 'literally being racist and projecting asian stereotypes' by disagreeing with her. Can I respect her right to have that view? Sure. Do I accept it? Of course not.
Some believe gender doesnt exist, or is different from sex. Some believe you can have multiple genders. Some think using gender is unnecessary or some clothing is unnecessarily gendered.
I do not agree with this nor believe it. Can i accept your choice to believe it? Sure. Can I respect you as a human being? Of course. Do I think you should be harassed, lose rights, be attacked for this? Absolutely not. Do i accept it? No. But I can still respect you. If you cant respect my perspective either, then theres nothing I can do for you.
Personality,depth,humor,consequences,lore,customization.
While you are correct that it's not always linear/forward (I think of it as a more push-pull kind of thing personally that evolves as the culture itself is always evolving/changing), I think there are some things that, have progressed/changed so majorily that it would take some kind of calamity to the society to destabilize it to revert back to those beliefs/ideals/systems.
I think comparing gay relationships now to 2,000 years ago is also rather unfair. I'm not well versed in socio-political dynamics of that time period, but I'm pretty confident to say that the values/ideals of that society are too different to really compare directly. The typical marriage/'relationships' of any culture/time period is going to be different and it's not fair to compare 100%. Our modern idea of 'same sex relationships' (and relationships as a whole, marriages) now is vastly different; not including the differences between classes back then and their different expectations (for things like marriage, carrying on lineage, etc.). Our concept of a 'citizen' is much different from Roman Empire's standards, let alone of what they think about same-sex relationships.
I do get what you meant, however. Yes, certain events in history did cause a major regress for that area and would later affect many other countries later on, but between that 2,000 years period from then and now there were other societies who also were more accepting of same-sex relationships (of course, with their own understanding of what that is, how it looks, and how it fits/functions in that society). It waxes and wanes depending on when + where you are in history.
I also think it's unfair to say that the rise in hate/bigot beliefs is because of the rapid/aggressive push for change (or it felt like you were implying/saying it was the only reason). It is certainly a prominent contending factor (and a big one), but it's not the only reason. Look at the time period of when these two things arrived; late 90s to 2000s. That's right when the internet kicked off + rapid change in technology (+ economic change/struggles at least for the US, can't say for Europe personally but I imagine its similar). Anytime you have major change in a society these kind of things are going to come up. Not to mention a lot of the nature of the internet (certain spaces) is what allowed the spread of the hateful sentiments in the first place.
I'm not saying you're wrong that the push for social change has caused a lot of anxiety/pullback/rise in hateful beliefs, but I feel like it's unfair to say that is the only reason it has gotten so big. And while is a significant risk of it failing and causing a reverse of progress for social issues; I feel like ultimately it will still work out in the end because these groups tend to be so destructive in nature that while they can cause a lot of immediate major damage they will ultimately burn out or self-destruct on their own (or evolve into something else and target another group--cause at the end of the day they're just looking for a scapegoat to blame their problems on). I could be wrong, but for the sake of my sanity I want to think more positively (albeit cautious).
~~~~~
Nobody has to like the inclusion of pronouns. While I personally think the idea of adding multiple pronouns per sim is unnecessary (the coding already is going to be a lot of work); I can understand why other people may want it. IRL some folks may use both and want others to know that so asking that question about multiple ones makes sense. As someone who is on the nonbinary spectrum, I understand. However, the pronoun system is already a lot of work as it is so I think it is asking too much and ultimately unnecessary due to the nature of CAS and that you can change stuff on a dime with no problems; we can just flipflop it anytime. If this was a multiplayer game, I could see use of having multiple ones at least as an indicator/tag for bios, but for solo play nah.
But what I don't understand is why people are so against the pronoun system itself (ignoring the "it's a waste of time" belief/argument). Even after we were told that it is optional and it's not "just have everyone use they; no more she/her or he/him" like a lot of people were worried about initially. I can 100% understand the concern about not wanting to see the pronouns right below a sim's name cause I would find that distracting myself (and I want the pronoun system). Having it tucked away in the profile or something would be ideal.
Even if you play with strictly cisgender sims and what not; this doesn't take anything away. If premades are given customized pronouns, you can change the few who MIGHT get flagged for it. Just like you can break up gay premades or just delete them entirely; if it's not for you, just omit it. You have that control.
For most players, all this will be is an extra step (and seemingly an optional one). Those who were complaining about being addressed as 'they' in the recent game text can use the pronouns as to (hopefully) ensure that you are addressed properly. Just like a lot of nonbinary players have been wanting to be properly addressed as for a while. Not all of them, of course. Some are fine using she/her or he/him, but many do prefer they.
Everybody uses pronouns irl. Most people never had to really think about it before, and I feel like many don't like having to think about it for whatever reason. But regardless its inclusion doesn't change anything, not really. The only change is recognizing which one you want to use + having some customization ~options~. Even if you don't agree with things like nonbinary identity, gender being more than man and woman, etc.; you can still just keep doing what you've been doing and just ignore other stuff.
EDIT: Changed a word choice.
Thank you for the clarification folks.
I may never really understand the true need for multiple pronouns but I respect people's choices.
If whatever Team Maxis develops isn't going to clutter up the UI and mess up game mechanics, I couldn't care less what way folks want to be represented.
All I need is a bunch of great tools and systems that work and hey, perhaps some additional, interesting, bug-less game play.
And don't worry, I don't expect people to call me Charlie The Cocker Spaniel on Wednesday afternoons just because that's how I feel sometimes.
"Oh hi, ehr.....Danny, right?"
"No I'm not Danny. I'm Charlie."
"I'm so sorry. I thought you said your name was Danny."
"It's Charlie. I'm Danny on Mondays. Danny The Dude. I'd really prefer it if you call me Charlie today."
"Oh. Ok...yeah, sure, Charlie..may I borrow some sugar?"
"I haven't got any sugar. I've only got dog biscuits. I'm a Cocker Spaniel."
"Right. Right....you're a talking dog?"
"Yes. Can't you see that?"
"Not really. You look exactly like the same guy I spoke to on Monday."
"I AM the same guy. I just ... FEEL more like a Charlie and a dog. A Cocker Spaniel to be precise."
"Oh, Ok. I see."
"Why don't you come back tomorrow and ask for sugar?"
"And... what would be the advantage?"
"Tomorrow I'm Jane Sugarcane. You will like me a lot better."
As for it being fun to mock, I'll let those words stand for themselves as evidence if intention here.
I once mocked it out of ignorance too so I can have compassion for those who don't know any better yet, and try to educate instead of mock their ignorance on the subject.
But I would invite people to find out why things aren't what we used to think they were before launching dismissals or ridicule.
```
I've already posted that this feature will be completely optional for every player. If you can't post here without bemoaning the "woke" or invoking religion, politics or clutching pearls because we're trying to be inclusive to a group of people then just don't post.
Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement, and success have no meaning.