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Non binary pronouns and language... and how will be launched at non english
leo3487
Posts: 4,062 Member
reading the interview here
https://simscommunity.info/2022/01/19/customizable-pronouns-importance-in-the-sims-4/
and going to the intervention of Verónica Morales, there is a thing I cant understand well, as at Inside Maxis was said at non english will be ready later, and now this:
Then something I no understand well:
Non binary pronouns will be deployed at certain language only when be officially accepted by language regulators?
https://simscommunity.info/2022/01/19/customizable-pronouns-importance-in-the-sims-4/
and going to the intervention of Verónica Morales, there is a thing I cant understand well, as at Inside Maxis was said at non english will be ready later, and now this:
It has to be treated and broken down to the specifics of the language because culture regulations and the language itself have a great impact on how this topic is handled in the different regions. Linguistically speaking all different sides of the spectrum are represented in the languages The Sims are localized into. Some languages have an officially accepted and ready to use non-binary pronouns. For instance Swedish – they have “hen” which would work. For other terittories however the problems are not being included in the dictionaries which proves that languages are evolving and accepting of this new language which is changing over time. In case for French with the pronoun “yel” which was recently accepted in their dictionary.
Some countries such as Germany, Spain and Brazil – communities have started using non-binary grammar in the syntax systems. These are not officially accepted but they are being used by a part of the society and they feel comfortable with this grammar and system and syntax systems.
On other side of the spectrum we have terittories with strict regulations and laws which the use of non binary pronouns can be quite challenging. It’s important to point out the reachness of the languages and for those teritorries which face some challenges there are some ways to resolve these. For instance we can use the passive voice in order to avoid referrencing the subject. Instead of saying “they sent me a letter yesterday” you can say “the letter was sent yesterday”.
Then something I no understand well:
Non binary pronouns will be deployed at certain language only when be officially accepted by language regulators?
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The team said that they will start the process of implementation (when its ready) in English. Other languages may present more challenges, because sometimes there are no gender neutral options, like in Spanish and some languages are protected by native laws. The team did not say specifically what they intend to do, just that they are looking into it.
if well at Spain officially no recognize non binary language, at Argentina we recognize it, even allow at official documents
Passive voice wouldn't always work in Spanish but there are other workarounds like verbal phrases. Also, we don't use personal pronouns unless we really want to stress something and possessive pronouns are genderless.
The main difficulty would be gender declination of adjectives but Maxis could use the ending "e" for gender neutral. The biggest problem I see is with using indirect object pronouns "la" and "lo" because "le" is the pronoun for direct object.
I hope you have reason than will consult activist and LGBTQ+ groups, instead consult with organism like RAE
Also as I said (here or other thread?) as start with english version and then translate to other languages, my fear was than to do that translation or port, wait until dictionary reconnize it officially
Binary is everthing with only two sides like 0 and 1 in programming or male and female.
But there are many accepted ways in German to combine male and female forms of nouns. The biggest gender challenge in our language is that there are obligatory male and female forms of all descriptions for human beings. While English speakers have an actor and an actress, we also have a teacher and a teacheress (Lehrer/Lehrerin) and so on.
The problem is that in everyday language the longer female form is often left out thus making non-male persons invisible. If you see a mixed group of teachers, you often simply say
die Lehrer (the male teachers)
instead of
die Lehrerinnen und Lehrer (the female and male teachers)
Luckily in written language there are multiple accepted combined forms that all people can identify with like
Lehrer*innen
LehrerInnen
Lehrer_innen
I'm pretty sure that this will be the German equivalent to the pronouns project.
I know that my non-trans and binary sims do not identify as women or maidens. I'm 100% for non-binary representation, but if they choose to use non-binary language, they should actually use non-binary/ gender neutral terms. In this case, "Mermaid" is not an accurate representation of "Merfolk", "Merpeople", or "Merperson".
My point is that, if you choose to represent a group, you should use more accurate language if you care about achieving equal representation for that group.
Right now, they call the "Mermadic" or "Mer" occult "Mermaid" in CAS, but not every Mer is a mermaid.
For my game, I see them as a matriarchal society where the umbrella term for the species is "Mermaids" though in my head there are also "Mermen" when referring to males specifically. Kind of the way "man" and "mankind" has been used as an umbrella term for bipedal humanoids but "women" exist among us. I personally tend to refer to them as "Merfolk" in general, but I've also accepted "Mermaid" as the default term.
To me this is binary:
And this is male / female:
This is not a feature I would personally use in CAS. As I have always used the same, self-insert Sim [I am an ally cis female, she/her], and that's it. A single character I then use to try and "complete" the game.
However, everyone should be able to do the same thing that I do, and that includes being able to use their preferred pronouns. Representation is so important. And I have a lot of respect for the development team working to implement a feature I would never use, because of the inter-social and personal impact it can have on all players, not just those who would actively choose pronouns. I'll say it again, representation matters.
Language support is something I feel that can be covered pretty well with the "Custom Pronouns" field shown in the Inside EA Twitch stream. How and what are "default" pronouns could have been considered an issue, but I think this was addressed neatly by having the players insert their Sims name, and then choosing the pronouns in a single step. Regarding non-he/she pronouns, I consider the gender-neutral "they" to be a great option. I agree that the challenge will be finding a common-use equal in languages that don't have an official gender neutral equivalent, but by having the "Custom" pronoun option for those who would like to set their choice of pronouns, EA have allowed for a massive margin of freedom.
Pronoun implementation been very considerately done so far, and long may it continue.
There's a hobby called mermaiding and the hobby includes mostly women and girls, but there are still men and boys involved in the hobby too. The hobby itself is a global activity with groups near large bodies of water.
Personally, I haven't gotten to do any of that any time recently since Covid started and group activities became more difficult to feel comfortable doing.
However, the point I'm trying to make is that the people most involved in the mermaiding hobby use the term: Pod for groups and generally use the term Merfolk or Mer as an Umbrella term.
Mermaiding also includes people that are part of the LGBTQ community. So, this topic comes up a lot.
The Mermaiding hobby involves freediving, swimming, underwater activities, and group gatherings. The big difference is that people involved in that activity use mertails to swim.
It's actually a great physical activity that keeps people in very good shape. It also gets people involved in doing things in nature, like the ocean and freshwater springs.
Despite potential perceptions, it's actually an extremely healthy activity for social interaction, mental health, and physical health.
So, the binary between men and women is something extremely ingrained in humanity, another umbrella term like mankind. I doubt it will disappear overnight, and I don't think everyone will identify as non-binary.
I think, when it comes to representation, the most important thing is freedom of choice and having options to choose.
I know that my most important sims I play with wear clothes in the feminine category, but I don't think of the clothes as feminine or imagine the mermen that wear that clothing as seeing it as feminine. Also, I don't imagine it as the same female clothing.
That is something to think about. I speak some spanish, and I know that a grammar rule for speaking the language correctly is that everything in a sentence must agree in gender and number.
My understanding was that localised language options (where available) and custom options will be available at launch.
So if your language has official neutral pronouns (such as They/Them/Their in English) then those will be available to pick from along with gendered pronouns, or you can make your own with custom pronouns.
If your language DOESN'T have official neutral pronouns yet then you won't have premade neutral pronouns, but will have still have gendered pronouns and custom pronouns to choose from.
THAT is the point than made me start this thread
As seem for english gurus will ask to activists and LGBTQ+ communities, but for spanish and other languages will ask to RAE and other official language regulators
I call them Mersims in the Sims, or Merfolk generally.
Merriam-Webster dictionary
Definitions #3c and 3d under the entry for "they"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they
And I'm certain their bug-fixing team aren't all tied up in this, expending 'all this energy'. I imagine this is almost entirely work for the translation/localisation team. The team have never been all that quick with bug fixes, but that's not anything to do with gender.