This is clearly an important step in increasing the representation and inclusion of everyone in the game, but I'm mostly worried about the practical implementation into the game code...
In particular, I'm worried about how it would be implemented into other languages, as I don't play the game in English but in Italian. As already hinted before in this thread, our language is really a mess in this regard, because it's very inflected at the point that everything, even objects, have a grammatical gender. Basically, we don't have a "it", but use equivalents of "he" and "she" also when implying words like "pencil", "table", "river" or "elephant". In addition, the language is also more inflected in the sense that many more elements in the sentence (articles, adjectives, verbs...) change depending on the grammatical gender of the subject. Long story short, our grammar is basically not made for an easy implementation of pronouns other than "he" and "she".
The other problem I see with this topic is the fact that in here there isn't a general agreement on a possible non-binary pronoun to use in the way they/them are in the English speaking countries. In our language the grammatical gender of words in most cases is represented by a o/a at the end of the word, and it has been proposed to replace it with either an * or a ə: these sort of work in the written form but are very hard to pronounce, and so their use is quite niche in here. The same more or less applies also to other romance languages, for example I heard that in France there are debates about using neologisms as their neutral pronouns. Now, the Italian translation is not used by many players (in relative terms), but Spanish, Portuguese and French definitively sound like quite large markets.
What I also found interesting reading this thread is that you have already noticed the use of they/them in some game notifications from recent updates. In my translated version of the game I don't think to have noticed anything similar, but it's also true that I'm not paying so much attention to what is written into those notifications. From now on I will try to pay more attention to it, I'm curious to understand better how this is being implemented (if they are doing it)...
You can follow the Legacy Miller from my blog and the forum thread, *Chapter 8.12 posted on the 25th of March 2024*
In particular, I'm worried about how it would be implemented into other languages, as [...] in Italian. [...] Basically, we don't have a "it", but use equivalents of "he" and "she" also when implying words like "pencil", "table", "river" or "elephant". In addition, the language is also more inflected in the sense that many more elements in the sentence (articles, adjectives, verbs...) change depending on the grammatical gender of the subject. [... ]
The other problem I see with this topic is the fact that in here there isn't a general agreement on a possible non-binary pronoun [... ]
The same more or less applies also to other romance languages, for example I heard that in France there are debates about using neologisms as their neutral pronouns. Now, the Italian translation is not used by many players (in relative terms), but Spanish, Portuguese and French definitively sound like quite large markets.
In Spanish we also decline adjectives and articles depending on the gender of the noun but gender-less speech isn't as difficult.
For starters, we hardly ever use pronouns. Verb conjugation is so extensive that it varies depending on the pronoun but it's gender-less.
There's also forms of speech that avoid the use of gendered declination like saying "I've got hunger" (tengo hambre) instead of "I'm hungry" (estoy hambriento/hambrienta).
There's also quite a lot of consensus of using "e" as a declination ending for neutral speech and, although "x" is also sometimes used, I don't see that much of a problem to use it because it'll only appear in written pop-ups. After all, sims speak Simlish and not Spanish.
I've stayed silent on this matter for awhile since it can be a bit dividing but since we're get closer to hearing more information about the introduction of pronouns, I want to make my opinion known since the way they implement this is very important to me, regardless of my silence on the topic.
I want to start off by saying, I'm all for the introduction of pronouns and non-binary options being added. But they must absolutely remain a selectable option. And any non-gendered references in the in-game pop ups should affect only the sims who use those selected pronouns and not all Sims as some of the newer text pop ups do. Actually, with the expected pronoun updates coming to the games, I'd like to see the current text pop ups changed to match the Sim in question's selected identity.
If I am playing a female sim she should be referred to as a she/her in the text pop ups. Not as a they/them. And likewise, my male sims should be referred to as a he/him. I create my Sims based on my vision, and I would like my vision respected in game which includes the in game text pop ups.
And I feel simply changing all text to be non-gendered (as proposed in the original petition) is counterproductive to this entire thing, since by making all text the same, it would be excluding everyone who uses binary pronouns and misgendering our binary Sims. Which is precisely the boat non-binary simmers and sims are in right now.
It is not inclusive to add non-binary pronouns while also erasing any traces of binary pronouns that already exist in game. By doing that you're simply flipping the script and excluding a majority of players who use/identify with she/sher or he/him pronouns.
And should this become a case where the all text becomes gender neutral, I will start a counter petition to add gendered language back into the game along with the non-gendered language. Unless someone else beats me to it.
Personally, as a non-binary person I am extremely excited for this feature to be implemented and I am glad that the developers team is looking into how to include it at depth (I have heard that they trying to find different pronouns from different languages and how it can be put into the game accurately). I understand how some people may want to use just she/her and he/him pronouns for their sims which I don't think has to change but I would like to see the option for pronouns maybe within the current gender features drop down in CAS where you can currently select about whether the sim can get pregnant or get other pregnant and if they can use the toilet standing up or not. It would be amazing if you potentially had a sort of 'checkbox' for either she/her, he/him and they/them pronouns (or the equivalent in different languages) and a fourth option where you can enter it in manually in case the sim uses pronouns that differ to these or multiple pronouns. Perhaps if this feature was implemented where you can manually type them in, you could use the '/' key and any text either side of this is replaces where there would be a pronoun in case the user goes by any other pronouns, similar to how you can enter your pronouns on instagram for example.
I'm really excited to see this update when it comes out!!
I've stayed silent on this matter for awhile since it can be a bit dividing but since we're get closer to hearing more information about the introduction of pronouns, I want to make my opinion known since the way they implement this is very important to me, regardless of my silence on the topic.
I want to start off by saying, I'm all for the introduction of pronouns and non-binary options being added. But they must absolutely remain a selectable option. And any non-gendered references in the in-game pop ups should affect only the sims who use those selected pronouns and not all Sims as some of the newer text pop ups do. Actually, with the expected pronoun updates coming to the games, I'd like to see the current text pop ups changed to match the Sim in question's selected identity.
If I am playing a female sim she should be referred to as a she/her in the text pop ups. Not as a they/them. And likewise, my male sims should be referred to as a he/him. I create my Sims based on my vision, and I would like my vision respected in game which includes the in game text pop ups.
And I feel simply changing all text to be non-gendered (as proposed in the original petition) is counterproductive to this entire thing, since by making all text the same, it would be excluding everyone who uses binary pronouns and misgendering our binary Sims. Which is precisely the boat non-binary simmers and sims are in right now.
It is not inclusive to add non-binary pronouns while also erasing any traces of binary pronouns that already exist in game. By doing that you're simply flipping the script and excluding a majority of players who use/identify with she/sher or he/him pronouns.
And should this become a case where the all text becomes gender neutral, I will start a counter petition to add gendered language back into the game along with the non-gendered language. Unless someone else beats me to it.
Personally, as a non-binary person I am extremely excited for this feature to be implemented and I am glad that the developers team is looking into how to include it at depth (I have heard that they trying to find different pronouns from different languages and how it can be put into the game accurately). I understand how some people may want to use just she/her and he/him pronouns for their sims which I don't think has to change but I would like to see the option for pronouns maybe within the current gender features drop down in CAS where you can currently select about whether the sim can get pregnant or get other pregnant and if they can use the toilet standing up or not. It would be amazing if you potentially had a sort of 'checkbox' for either she/her, he/him and they/them pronouns (or the equivalent in different languages) and a fourth option where you can enter it in manually in case the sim uses pronouns that differ to these or multiple pronouns. Perhaps if this feature was implemented where you can manually type them in, you could use the '/' key and any text either side of this is replaces where there would be a pronoun in case the user goes by any other pronouns, similar to how you can enter your pronouns on instagram for example.
I'm really excited to see this update when it comes out!!
Pronouns, are a messy subject, you're 🐸🐸🐸🐸 if you do and you're 🐸🐸🐸🐸 if you don't, I personally identity as a male as a cis guy, but I don't go around showing my pronouns for everyone else to see like everyone on Twitter, that said I do support this.
Per the tweet, it looks like it's going to be Customizable Pronouns so much less need to worry about the game misgendering he/him or she/her sims as they/them, and an opportunity for those who use neo-pronouns to use those as well.
While most of my friends and family in my game all uses he/him and she/her pronouns, I am the first person who mainly uses he/him while I'm not acting like my alter egos, or he/him, she/her, or they/them as my acting pronouns. For example, my ninja alter ego Jeremia The Ninja uses he/him, Queen Maria Zowanski uses she/her, and her son Emperor Roman Zowanski uses either he/him or they/them (While having feminine-like makeup). I should create my non-binary alter ego in the future
After seeing their presentation during the livestream, I hope we won't need to state for all sims their pronouns and that their name won't have the pronouns mentioned after them. It looks unnecessarily fussy for someone not using custom ones.
After seeing their presentation during the livestream, I hope we won't need to state for all sims their pronouns and that their name won't have the pronouns mentioned after them. It looks unnecessarily fussy for someone not using custom ones.
I may be wrong, but I thought I heard them say that yes, it would appear behind their name in live mode.
The update from the livestream looks promising... I'm guessing that the game will use the default messages if the player doesn't use it and they will add updated messages for the new pronouns. Which is what I was hoping that they would do.
It will probably take a while depending on how many messages they want to update. It's probably a good idea for them to begin with the more common ones so they don't get overwhelmed adding new messages to the game.
After seeing their presentation during the livestream, I hope we won't need to state for all sims their pronouns and that their name won't have the pronouns mentioned after them. It looks unnecessarily fussy for someone not using custom ones.
I may be wrong, but I thought I heard them say that yes, it would appear behind their name in live mode.
Some of my sims have really long names! Can you imagine the length of the tooltips?!
I know this is a WIP, so hopefully those tooltips are optional in the final version. I don't need to see all that info. It makes sense to keep it under the simology/ relationship panel instead.
I'm glad they're working on it but really not a fan of the execution.. It would've been much better to just include pronouns in the gender customisation panel, along with all the other gender customisation options, rather than a giant list of pronouns at the top of the screen.
This would've been a lot better in my opinion:
(Imagine there's an other/custom option too I just found this concept like this)
@Onverser the image you posted is essentially how they presented it. There is no giant list at the top. Just essentially those same choices in a different drop down.
@Onverser the image you posted is essentially how they presented it. There is no giant list at the top. Just essentially those same choices in a different drop down.
No? This is what they showed, the pronouns all listed after the name at the top
After seeing their presentation during the livestream, I hope we won't need to state for all sims their pronouns and that their name won't have the pronouns mentioned after them. It looks unnecessarily fussy for someone not using custom ones.
I may be wrong, but I thought I heard them say that yes, it would appear behind their name in live mode.
I'm fine with that. The game already displays their age there as well, so I don't think it would look out of place.
@Onverser the image you posted is essentially how they presented it. There is no giant list at the top. Just essentially those same choices in a different drop down.
No? This is what they showed, the pronouns all listed after the name at the top
Sorry, I thought you were referring to the drop down. Still, this hardly seems like a “giant list”
@Onverser the image you posted is essentially how they presented it. There is no giant list at the top. Just essentially those same choices in a different drop down.
No? This is what they showed, the pronouns all listed after the name at the top
It's great that it leaves it up to player choice, but as far as the display, not a fan. I don't want them to show like that, I'd much rather they were hidden unless the player wants them displayed. It makes it look like EA is trying to show off for social points and kind of cheapens the gesture. Why would a player need the pronouns displayed in their own game? Surely they know the genders of their own Sims? It will bother the blaggard out of me to constantly see "he/him" and "she/her" after every single Sim name.
Also, this looks like it may still continue to lead into the erasure of the sexes altogether, which I actually want my game to acknowledge. I still want one day to be able to set an all-female club to only flirt with males or females and vise versa. I want single Sims to one day have a sexual preference, like actual sex of the Sim, you know, like real people do. I just hope this doesn't start to blur the gender/sex lines completely for game recognition because that takes a whole lot of personal gameplay purpose and sexual identity away for a lot of players and what good would it do to sacrifice one identity for another? Because one is trending? You can't wedge in one identity by erasing another and then pat yourself on the back and call yourself "inclusive". I may be jumping the gun with my doubt, but I just hope they've been really thinking this through before going in and making a bunch of core changes.
Hypothetically, this allows sims with no pronouns. My servo is named Quartz and has no gender. In stead of he/him/his I could use Quartz/Quartz/Quartz's and that would be very cool.
And that will be fun if in live mode Quartz appears as
Comments
(I don't think my non-binarism is 'enigmatic' per se, but I'm glad some people still find magic and mystery in the world).
In particular, I'm worried about how it would be implemented into other languages, as I don't play the game in English but in Italian. As already hinted before in this thread, our language is really a mess in this regard, because it's very inflected at the point that everything, even objects, have a grammatical gender. Basically, we don't have a "it", but use equivalents of "he" and "she" also when implying words like "pencil", "table", "river" or "elephant". In addition, the language is also more inflected in the sense that many more elements in the sentence (articles, adjectives, verbs...) change depending on the grammatical gender of the subject. Long story short, our grammar is basically not made for an easy implementation of pronouns other than "he" and "she".
The other problem I see with this topic is the fact that in here there isn't a general agreement on a possible non-binary pronoun to use in the way they/them are in the English speaking countries. In our language the grammatical gender of words in most cases is represented by a o/a at the end of the word, and it has been proposed to replace it with either an * or a ə: these sort of work in the written form but are very hard to pronounce, and so their use is quite niche in here.
The same more or less applies also to other romance languages, for example I heard that in France there are debates about using neologisms as their neutral pronouns. Now, the Italian translation is not used by many players (in relative terms), but Spanish, Portuguese and French definitively sound like quite large markets.
What I also found interesting reading this thread is that you have already noticed the use of they/them in some game notifications from recent updates. In my translated version of the game I don't think to have noticed anything similar, but it's also true that I'm not paying so much attention to what is written into those notifications. From now on I will try to pay more attention to it, I'm curious to understand better how this is being implemented (if they are doing it)...
In Spanish we also decline adjectives and articles depending on the gender of the noun but gender-less speech isn't as difficult.
For starters, we hardly ever use pronouns. Verb conjugation is so extensive that it varies depending on the pronoun but it's gender-less.
There's also forms of speech that avoid the use of gendered declination like saying "I've got hunger" (tengo hambre) instead of "I'm hungry" (estoy hambriento/hambrienta).
There's also quite a lot of consensus of using "e" as a declination ending for neutral speech and, although "x" is also sometimes used, I don't see that much of a problem to use it because it'll only appear in written pop-ups. After all, sims speak Simlish and not Spanish.
I want to start off by saying, I'm all for the introduction of pronouns and non-binary options being added. But they must absolutely remain a selectable option. And any non-gendered references in the in-game pop ups should affect only the sims who use those selected pronouns and not all Sims as some of the newer text pop ups do. Actually, with the expected pronoun updates coming to the games, I'd like to see the current text pop ups changed to match the Sim in question's selected identity.
If I am playing a female sim she should be referred to as a she/her in the text pop ups. Not as a they/them. And likewise, my male sims should be referred to as a he/him. I create my Sims based on my vision, and I would like my vision respected in game which includes the in game text pop ups.
And I feel simply changing all text to be non-gendered (as proposed in the original petition) is counterproductive to this entire thing, since by making all text the same, it would be excluding everyone who uses binary pronouns and misgendering our binary Sims. Which is precisely the boat non-binary simmers and sims are in right now.
It is not inclusive to add non-binary pronouns while also erasing any traces of binary pronouns that already exist in game. By doing that you're simply flipping the script and excluding a majority of players who use/identify with she/sher or he/him pronouns.
And should this become a case where the all text becomes gender neutral, I will start a counter petition to add gendered language back into the game along with the non-gendered language. Unless someone else beats me to it.
I'm really excited to see this update when it comes out!!
Pronouns, are a messy subject, you're 🐸🐸🐸🐸 if you do and you're 🐸🐸🐸🐸 if you don't, I personally identity as a male as a cis guy, but I don't go around showing my pronouns for everyone else to see like everyone on Twitter, that said I do support this.
https://youtu.be/kHX6Xl7_KeE
Race Against the Clock: Can your elder sim turn back the clock before their time runs out?
Per the tweet, it looks like it's going to be Customizable Pronouns so much less need to worry about the game misgendering he/him or she/her sims as they/them, and an opportunity for those who use neo-pronouns to use those as well.
I may be wrong, but I thought I heard them say that yes, it would appear behind their name in live mode.
It will probably take a while depending on how many messages they want to update. It's probably a good idea for them to begin with the more common ones so they don't get overwhelmed adding new messages to the game.
Some of my sims have really long names! Can you imagine the length of the tooltips?!
I know this is a WIP, so hopefully those tooltips are optional in the final version. I don't need to see all that info. It makes sense to keep it under the simology/ relationship panel instead.
Cade's Announcement for Maxis January 18th Stream
This would've been a lot better in my opinion:
(Imagine there's an other/custom option too I just found this concept like this)
No? This is what they showed, the pronouns all listed after the name at the top
I'm fine with that. The game already displays their age there as well, so I don't think it would look out of place.
Sorry, I thought you were referring to the drop down. Still, this hardly seems like a “giant list”
It's great that it leaves it up to player choice, but as far as the display, not a fan. I don't want them to show like that, I'd much rather they were hidden unless the player wants them displayed. It makes it look like EA is trying to show off for social points and kind of cheapens the gesture. Why would a player need the pronouns displayed in their own game? Surely they know the genders of their own Sims? It will bother the blaggard out of me to constantly see "he/him" and "she/her" after every single Sim name.
Also, this looks like it may still continue to lead into the erasure of the sexes altogether, which I actually want my game to acknowledge. I still want one day to be able to set an all-female club to only flirt with males or females and vise versa. I want single Sims to one day have a sexual preference, like actual sex of the Sim, you know, like real people do. I just hope this doesn't start to blur the gender/sex lines completely for game recognition because that takes a whole lot of personal gameplay purpose and sexual identity away for a lot of players and what good would it do to sacrifice one identity for another? Because one is trending? You can't wedge in one identity by erasing another and then pat yourself on the back and call yourself "inclusive". I may be jumping the gun with my doubt, but I just hope they've been really thinking this through before going in and making a bunch of core changes.
And that will be fun if in live mode Quartz appears as
Quartz Servo Quartz Quartz Quartz's.