From the tehnical side, it's not quick. Here's an example of a text string from the game, for one of the writer career levels:
The fans love {M0.him}{F0.her}. The critics hate {M0.him}{F0.her}. {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {M0.his}{F0.her} books sell like crazy, so {M0.his}{F0.her} publisher keeps paying {M0.him}{F0.her}. And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
You can see that the options were added in as "him" or "her", and the game is going to look for whether the sim is designated "M0" or "F0" in order to match which text should be displayed. It's like that all throughout the game, which has many thousands of text strings. The files aren't set up to use one variable for gender, it's got the pronouns hard-coded in. And with that many text strings, it's probably a long job to go adjust them.
And here is a good post from pink_coco in another thread about the complications with the game supporting 18 languages:
Option 2 is probably easier to add with the 18 different languages but that would remove the choice for people who would like to pick what they want.
It does not work with all languages. In Italian, for example, verbs, nouns, adjectives etc. are gendered. When a sim is promoted at work, you get the notification " Anna has been promoted to ...". In Italian it is "Anna è stata promossa ..." (feminine verb) or "Davide è stato promosso ..." (masculine verb). That is how it is now in game.
In order the phrase to be gender neutral it would be "Anna/Davide ha ottenuto una promozione"
That means that whole texts need to be written again, rephrased; just changing a pronoun or sims name is not enough in some cases.
And that is one issue with one message, the promotion message. The game have thousands of messages.
If you would like to visit the threads you can click on the arrows next to the names.
That looks like chaos. I imagine in all Latin based languages even the job description is gendered, not sure how they will make those neutral sounding.
I love the diversity the sims is putting out there for us simmers
My Issue with Diversity is that it's not usually done right, I support it it if it's done properly,however it's mostly just stereotypes whenever diversity is done by major corporations, I'm not saying it's a bad idea just that you should keep your expectations low.
I think there is an easy solution to this issue. They could add a customizable field in CAS for whatever pronouns the sim will use. So, it will be up to the player to define the pronouns, whatever they feel is suitable, and the game will simply use those pronouns instead of the regular she/him or whatever.
That’s …. literally what we’re asking for. I don’t think you could find a single person who advocates changing all pronouns to they/them. I certainly wouldn’t like that, and I am very happy about the announcement of this update.
There are 21,661 people who have signed this petition which says, “ If we could have the option to choose pronouns for our sim or for the team to switch older game texts to be gender neutral like current pack dialoged it would be impactful for those of us who are still unable to truly feel represented in the game by having our sims selves misgendered.“
If the team gives the option for all sims to choose their pronouns and uses them consistently, great. That should make everyone happy. I don’t like the alternative at all, which misgenders binary sims as they/them.
That's kind of silly though. "You guys" have always been neutral.
I really think that pushing everything to become inclusive is really getting out of hand. Inclusitivity is a good thing, but I don't see why everything needs to be included in every existing thing. That way we can never have anything, because everything needs to be in it to be approved. And then people will complain etc, etc. If I felt that something that represents me needs to be included to be enjoyable, then I wouldn't be able to play anything these days.
Of course it will be an option. If they were going to make it a one-size-for-all approach, it would be done.
I really don't like the narrative that people are being forced into playing "that way". You aren't and you won't be,
What will happen is that some others, who have never been able to play that way will be.
Also, singular "they" is older in grammatical usage than singular "you". Or dost thou still insist upon the second person singular pronouns, "thou, thee, thy, thine" when addressing an individual as well?
Please stop using grammar to cover for rudeness and bigotry.
As a non-binary trans person I am glad to hear the Sims developers are working on adding a gender-neutral pronoun option to the game. I look forward to seeing how this change is implemented, as the male/female gender binary is evident throughout the game, as it is in society.
I assume, as with the patch that removed gendered restrictions on clothing, hair, and makeup in CAS, that using a gender-neutral pronoun will be an option, not mandatory for all Sims. Forcing all Sims to go by gender-neutral pronouns in all situations simply wouldn't make sense, and would be insensitive to trans as well as cis people.
Also, not all non-binary people go by gender-neutral pronouns; many go by she/her or he/him, sometimes depending on the encounter or situation. Being gendered correctly is affirming and important, but language is only a part of what it means to be non-binary.
My husband came out as non binary a few years ago. They're masculine presenting, but don't consider themselves to be entirely male or female in terms of gender identity. They were the ones who decided that they would prefer to be addressed by they/them pronouns, but it's not something they insist upon and are okay with people using he/him in different situations (for ease of writing late at night I will now switch to he/him pronouns). Point is it was his decision to adopt the pronouns he feels describe his gender identity best, and it's also been his decision to also go by he/him pronouns depending on the situation. I think it was an important part of him accepting that he's non binary that he was allowed to decide for himself how he should present in terms of pronouns, and indeed in terms of outer appearance as well.
So yes, I agree totally with what you've said here. It is important that non binary and gender non conforming people have the right to determine these things for themselves & not simply be gendered by others. So whilst I absolutely support and celebrate non binary pronouns being added to the game, I do hope that they will still give us a choice as to how and when those pronouns are used.
Occult Simmer (All Occult All The Time)
Female Simmer from Australia (she/her)
I had one of my Sims marry the Grim Reaper & now they have a lot of kids.
That's kind of silly though. "You guys" have always been neutral.
"Y'all" may be more common in America, but we don't really say that in England. And I agree that "You guys" is netural anyway. "Guys" is very far from meaning only males now. It's much closer to "You folks", or "You lot". (As an English person, I don't think I could pull of "Y'all" with my accent at all! ).
Anyway, good! I know a lot of Simmers have wanted this for a long time. I don't happen to have any non-binary Sims, and all of my Sims are pretty traditional when it comes to gender roles, so this update won't be that important to me, personally. But it will be important to a lot of Simmers.
I very much doubt that this means all Sims will become "They", as everyone (and every Sim) deserves to be referred to as what ever pronoun they are comfortable with, whether it's He, She, or They. I can only assume that it's taking so long because they want to get it right for everybody.
For those of us who don't feel a need for neutral pronouns in our games, we probably won't notice any difference or be impacted by it at all. But it's going to make a big difference for those who do want it.
I think there is an easy solution to this issue. They could add a customizable field in CAS for whatever pronouns the sim will use. So, it will be up to the player to define the pronouns, whatever they feel is suitable, and the game will simply use those pronouns instead of the regular she/him or whatever.
That’s …. literally what we’re asking for. I don’t think you could find a single person who advocates changing all pronouns to they/them. I certainly wouldn’t like that, and I am very happy about the announcement of this update.
There are 21,661 people who have signed this petition which says, “ If we could have the option to choose pronouns for our sim or for the team to switch older game texts to be gender neutral like current pack dialoged it would be impactful for those of us who are still unable to truly feel represented in the game by having our sims selves misgendered.“
If the team gives the option for all sims to choose their pronouns and uses them consistently, great. That should make everyone happy. I don’t like the alternative at all, which misgenders binary sims as they/them.
Yes, but the sims team talked about pronouns, not making everything in the game gender neutral. I honestly don't know where that idea came from.
I kinda feel like this is a little ridiculous. There are already so many options for gender swapping and what not, please don't change every bit of text to 'them'. I mean, maybe what you can do is something that will allow players to change things in their own person game?
I kinda feel like this is a little ridiculous. There are already so many options for gender swapping and what not, please don't change every bit of text to 'them'. I mean, maybe what you can do is something that will allow players to change things in their own person game?
Where did the developers state that they intend to "change every bit of text to 'them'"? I honestly don't' understand why folks are thinking this will happen.
I'm not sure where this "they're gonna make all the text gender neutral" way of thinking came from. I watched the same livestream, and at no point was I left with the impression that this was how pronouns would be implemented. Wouldn't be much of a pronoun update if all they catered to was they/them.
Personally, I'm not all that bothered about pronouns in my game, but I'm happy for the players that want them.
Sims 4 Wish List:
> Option to toggle on/off random townie generation.
> Turn vacation worlds into residential worlds.
> Option to purchase separate worlds or a world pack.
I think there should be an option for people to put whatever they want as there pronoun people make up new ones all the time
so they isn't gonna cover it. so if I want the game to refer to my sim as her lordship the alien queen I could have the option.
Having the option to choose pronouns for our sims (and not just mix and match "male" and "female" options) is really important to me because as it is now, I can't really make myself in the game or even Sims like me as it makes me dysphoric. There is not really a way to be nonbinary in the game without the use of mods unless you are okay with he or she pronouns.
Also, I saw some people saying going through and replacing all the language would be really hard, but I don't think it would be. I mean there are already modders who do it for free. It may be harder to do it in every single language, but I think it would be a great opportunity for the Sims team to work with nonbinary simmers who speak lots of different languages, because we exist all over the world.
I think Maxis is making hard work of easy stuff.
Adding pronouns that make sense in 18 (+?) languages? They’re missing the point, really.
There’s only ONE language that should support all the pronouns folks want and we all know which language that is. Simlish.
😇
Having the option to choose pronouns for our sims (and not just mix and match "male" and "female" options) is really important to me because as it is now, I can't really make myself in the game or even Sims like me as it makes me dysphoric. There is not really a way to be nonbinary in the game without the use of mods unless you are okay with he or she pronouns.
Also, I saw some people saying going through and replacing all the language would be really hard, but I don't think it would be. I mean there are already modders who do it for free. It may be harder to do it in every single language, but I think it would be a great opportunity for the Sims team to work with nonbinary simmers who speak lots of different languages, because we exist all over the world.
Replacing dialogue in the game (if they will do it) is not difficult to do, there are tutorials online on how you can open the files and change the text in the game, I did it once myself for fun and changed the text for some moods in the game.
The problem is that if you would want the game to refer to your sim as nonbinary in the game then you would need to rewrite the messages (because a lot of messages are referring to your sim as M0 and F0 (him and her)) and there is so much text in the game that it would require a huge amount of time and people who have to consult with language experts (because several of the 18 supported languages have dialogue that would need to be completely rewritten). This is probably why no modder have done a pronouns mod.
I also don't know if the game has M0 and F0 coded in other events too, like tuning. So it is possible, but it sounds like it could quickly turn into a huge effort.
Having the option to choose pronouns for our sims (and not just mix and match "male" and "female" options) is really important to me because as it is now, I can't really make myself in the game or even Sims like me as it makes me dysphoric. There is not really a way to be nonbinary in the game without the use of mods unless you are okay with he or she pronouns.
Also, I saw some people saying going through and replacing all the language would be really hard, but I don't think it would be. I mean there are already modders who do it for free. It may be harder to do it in every single language, but I think it would be a great opportunity for the Sims team to work with nonbinary simmers who speak lots of different languages, because we exist all over the world.
Replacing dialogue in the game (if they will do it) is not difficult to do, there are tutorials online on how you can open the files and change the text in the game, I did it once myself for fun and changed the text for some moods in the game.
The problem is that if you would want the game to refer to your sim as nonbinary in the game then you would need to rewrite the messages (because a lot of messages are referring to your sim as M0 and F0 (him and her)) and there is so much text in the game that it would require a huge amount of time and people who have to consult with language experts (because several of the 18 supported languages have dialogue that would need to be completely rewritten). This is probably why no modder have done a pronouns mod.
I also don't know if the game has M0 and F0 coded in other events too, like tuning. So it is possible, but it sounds like it could quickly turn into a huge effort.
You're right. Just the tuning for random names (for both CAS and random in-game spawns) would be its own kind of nightmare because there are separate lists for male and female... in each language currently supported. Makes me shudder to think of how much more is in the background like that, stuff that we the players might never normally see. I'm sure the team will do the best they can within the limits of an aging game, but I sure don't envy them the job in making it happen.
FYI: Just because you can see my signature, don't assume that I can see yours.
Because I can't; I keep all sigs turned off.
They must be selectable. I need to be able to pick pronouns for my sims. It would not be OK if they made them to be gender-neutral only.
I want the basics - she/her, he/him, they/them.
I really love neopronouns. For example fae/faer.
It would be pretty awesome if they came up with some SIMS neopronouns. I am not creative enough to think of anything cool right now. But I guess you know what I mean when I say sims neopronouns.
Of course it will be an option. If they were going to make it a one-size-for-all approach, it would be done.
I really don't like the narrative that people are being forced into playing "that way". You aren't and you won't be,
What will happen is that some others, who have never been able to play that way will be.
Also, singular "they" is older in grammatical usage than singular "you". Or dost thou still insist upon the second person singular pronouns, "thou, thee, thy, thine" when addressing an individual as well?
Please stop using grammar to cover for rudeness and bigotry.
I don't see anything bigoted in this thread. I see four or five questions that should be answered.
1. Are they going to include all 78 personal pronouns?
2. Are they going to make all of this optional (because they have already wiped out he/she in many of the texts that popup in more recent packs.
3. Will players who want to keep he/she be able to get all those text messages about their Sims still as he/she, since they have wiped out he/she and already made many texts gender neutral in more recent packs.
4. Will this work take away time and money for other long standing requests that people have been requesting (cost effective) for eight years.
I see nothing bigoted in those questions and concerns.
5. Because my brain operates in dollars and cents. How does this bring back thousands of players who left TS4 never to return due to lack of what they feel is lack of gameplay? How many new players does this gain for profit? Is this going to make the average player who no longer buys any packs of TS4 run to buy a new pack? Everything about gaming is always cost effective. This may get Maxis a pat on the back but does it bring in a profit to continue this game.
Post edited by Cinebar on
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
I agree that it would be like killing a fly with a hammer and breaking the window, to universally remove any gendered pronouns and replace all of it with blindly applied they/them, but I don't think that's what they are doing.
Gender is important, and that includes nonbinary genders. There are some who don't feel gender is important to them, and that's fine, and some who feel their nonbinary gender is very important, who would be just as upset being called he or she, instead of they, as the rest of us would be at being misgendered (called a gender other than the one we identify as).
I can't see EA removing gender from all the men and women (both cis and trans) out there, but what I think they are trying to do is give other genders representation and all of us the chance to customize gender for each of our played Sims. That would include choices of he/him, she/her, they/them, and possibly more or else a type-in custom option.
I agree that it would be like killing a fly with a hammer and breaking the window, to universally remove any gendered pronouns and replace all of it with blindly applied they/them, but I don't think that's what they are doing.
Gender is important, and that includes nonbinary genders. There are some who don't feel gender is important to them, and that's fine, and some who feel their nonbinary gender is very important, who would be just as upset being called he or she, instead of they, as the rest of us would be at being misgendered (called a gender other than the one we identify as).
I can't see EA removing gender from all the men and women (both cis and trans) out there, but what I think they are trying to do is give other genders representation and all of us the chance to customize gender for each of our played Sims. That would include choices of he/him, she/her, they/them, and possibly more or else a type-in custom option.
I hope you are right but they did remove he/she from text messages and make many in new packs gender neutral with they. Will they bring back he/she for those they already changed this past few years? I doubt it. Just a blanket they doesn't work for anyone does it. CAS is possibly the only place to set what people want for their own Sims.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
I think Maxis is making hard work of easy stuff.
Adding pronouns that make sense in 18 (+?) languages? They’re missing the point, really.
There’s only ONE language that should support all the pronouns folks want and we all know which language that is. Simlish.
😇
that's good humor, but on a serious note, we don't get text boxes written in Simlish. If we did, the game would become unplayable.
ETA I think I did it again.
I've been told I should go get evaluated for ASD because of taking jokes seriously and serious things as jokes irl and other reasons. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't but since it's not free to go do that as an adult, I'll look into it next time I have more money to spend on copays.
Comments
That looks like chaos. I imagine in all Latin based languages even the job description is gendered, not sure how they will make those neutral sounding.
My Issue with Diversity is that it's not usually done right, I support it it if it's done properly,however it's mostly just stereotypes whenever diversity is done by major corporations, I'm not saying it's a bad idea just that you should keep your expectations low.
https://www.change.org/p/ea-games-pronoun-options-for-trans-and-non-binary-sims-in-the-sims-4
If the team gives the option for all sims to choose their pronouns and uses them consistently, great. That should make everyone happy. I don’t like the alternative at all, which misgenders binary sims as they/them.
https://qz.com/1748823/how-the-gender-neutral-yall-could-replace-you-guys/
That's kind of silly though. "You guys" have always been neutral.
I really think that pushing everything to become inclusive is really getting out of hand. Inclusitivity is a good thing, but I don't see why everything needs to be included in every existing thing. That way we can never have anything, because everything needs to be in it to be approved. And then people will complain etc, etc. If I felt that something that represents me needs to be included to be enjoyable, then I wouldn't be able to play anything these days.
like call Vlad her ladyship all you want and so forth
but tbh i think its also cause he/she separation is not thing in my language anyway
so like to me even if i play in english i still translate it in my head as similar word to they so
🏡 Gallery 📖 Stories 🌍 World Project 🥔 MOD/CC Free
I really don't like the narrative that people are being forced into playing "that way". You aren't and you won't be,
What will happen is that some others, who have never been able to play that way will be.
Also, singular "they" is older in grammatical usage than singular "you". Or dost thou still insist upon the second person singular pronouns, "thou, thee, thy, thine" when addressing an individual as well?
Please stop using grammar to cover for rudeness and bigotry.
My husband came out as non binary a few years ago. They're masculine presenting, but don't consider themselves to be entirely male or female in terms of gender identity. They were the ones who decided that they would prefer to be addressed by they/them pronouns, but it's not something they insist upon and are okay with people using he/him in different situations (for ease of writing late at night I will now switch to he/him pronouns). Point is it was his decision to adopt the pronouns he feels describe his gender identity best, and it's also been his decision to also go by he/him pronouns depending on the situation. I think it was an important part of him accepting that he's non binary that he was allowed to decide for himself how he should present in terms of pronouns, and indeed in terms of outer appearance as well.
So yes, I agree totally with what you've said here. It is important that non binary and gender non conforming people have the right to determine these things for themselves & not simply be gendered by others. So whilst I absolutely support and celebrate non binary pronouns being added to the game, I do hope that they will still give us a choice as to how and when those pronouns are used.
Female Simmer from Australia (she/her)
I had one of my Sims marry the Grim Reaper & now they have a lot of kids.
"Y'all" may be more common in America, but we don't really say that in England. And I agree that "You guys" is netural anyway. "Guys" is very far from meaning only males now. It's much closer to "You folks", or "You lot". (As an English person, I don't think I could pull of "Y'all" with my accent at all!
Anyway, good! I know a lot of Simmers have wanted this for a long time. I don't happen to have any non-binary Sims, and all of my Sims are pretty traditional when it comes to gender roles, so this update won't be that important to me, personally. But it will be important to a lot of Simmers.
I very much doubt that this means all Sims will become "They", as everyone (and every Sim) deserves to be referred to as what ever pronoun they are comfortable with, whether it's He, She, or They. I can only assume that it's taking so long because they want to get it right for everybody.
For those of us who don't feel a need for neutral pronouns in our games, we probably won't notice any difference or be impacted by it at all. But it's going to make a big difference for those who do want it.
Yes, but the sims team talked about pronouns, not making everything in the game gender neutral. I honestly don't know where that idea came from.
Where did the developers state that they intend to "change every bit of text to 'them'"? I honestly don't' understand why folks are thinking this will happen.
Personally, I'm not all that bothered about pronouns in my game, but I'm happy for the players that want them.
At this point I’m ready for anything, but I’m mostly ready for official body hair. My He sims need.
so they isn't gonna cover it. so if I want the game to refer to my sim as her lordship the alien queen I could have the option.
Also, I saw some people saying going through and replacing all the language would be really hard, but I don't think it would be. I mean there are already modders who do it for free. It may be harder to do it in every single language, but I think it would be a great opportunity for the Sims team to work with nonbinary simmers who speak lots of different languages, because we exist all over the world.
Adding pronouns that make sense in 18 (+?) languages? They’re missing the point, really.
There’s only ONE language that should support all the pronouns folks want and we all know which language that is. Simlish.
😇
Replacing dialogue in the game (if they will do it) is not difficult to do, there are tutorials online on how you can open the files and change the text in the game, I did it once myself for fun and changed the text for some moods in the game.
The problem is that if you would want the game to refer to your sim as nonbinary in the game then you would need to rewrite the messages (because a lot of messages are referring to your sim as M0 and F0 (him and her)) and there is so much text in the game that it would require a huge amount of time and people who have to consult with language experts (because several of the 18 supported languages have dialogue that would need to be completely rewritten). This is probably why no modder have done a pronouns mod.
I also don't know if the game has M0 and F0 coded in other events too, like tuning. So it is possible, but it sounds like it could quickly turn into a huge effort.
You're right. Just the tuning for random names (for both CAS and random in-game spawns) would be its own kind of nightmare because there are separate lists for male and female... in each language currently supported. Makes me shudder to think of how much more is in the background like that, stuff that we the players might never normally see. I'm sure the team will do the best they can within the limits of an aging game, but I sure don't envy them the job in making it happen.
Because I can't; I keep all sigs turned off.
I want the basics - she/her, he/him, they/them.
I really love neopronouns. For example fae/faer.
It would be pretty awesome if they came up with some SIMS neopronouns. I am not creative enough to think of anything cool right now. But I guess you know what I mean when I say sims neopronouns.
I don't see anything bigoted in this thread. I see four or five questions that should be answered.
1. Are they going to include all 78 personal pronouns?
2. Are they going to make all of this optional (because they have already wiped out he/she in many of the texts that popup in more recent packs.
3. Will players who want to keep he/she be able to get all those text messages about their Sims still as he/she, since they have wiped out he/she and already made many texts gender neutral in more recent packs.
4. Will this work take away time and money for other long standing requests that people have been requesting (cost effective) for eight years.
I see nothing bigoted in those questions and concerns.
5. Because my brain operates in dollars and cents. How does this bring back thousands of players who left TS4 never to return due to lack of what they feel is lack of gameplay? How many new players does this gain for profit? Is this going to make the average player who no longer buys any packs of TS4 run to buy a new pack? Everything about gaming is always cost effective. This may get Maxis a pat on the back but does it bring in a profit to continue this game.
Gender is important, and that includes nonbinary genders. There are some who don't feel gender is important to them, and that's fine, and some who feel their nonbinary gender is very important, who would be just as upset being called he or she, instead of they, as the rest of us would be at being misgendered (called a gender other than the one we identify as).
I can't see EA removing gender from all the men and women (both cis and trans) out there, but what I think they are trying to do is give other genders representation and all of us the chance to customize gender for each of our played Sims. That would include choices of he/him, she/her, they/them, and possibly more or else a type-in custom option.
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I hope you are right but they did remove he/she from text messages and make many in new packs gender neutral with they. Will they bring back he/she for those they already changed this past few years? I doubt it. Just a blanket they doesn't work for anyone does it. CAS is possibly the only place to set what people want for their own Sims.
that's good humor, but on a serious note, we don't get text boxes written in Simlish. If we did, the game would become unplayable.
ETA I think I did it again.
I've been told I should go get evaluated for ASD because of taking jokes seriously and serious things as jokes irl and other reasons. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't but since it's not free to go do that as an adult, I'll look into it next time I have more money to spend on copays.
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