Here is an example of a line from the writer career, this line was mentioned in another thread. So I'm assuming this is how it could be done.
How the game does it right now:
The fans love {M0.him}{F0.her}. The critics hate {M0.him}{F0.her}. {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {M0.his}{F0.her} books sell like crazy, so {M0.his}{F0.her} publisher keeps paying {M0.him}{F0.her}. And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
Option 1- Add a third choice.
The fans love {M0.him}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. The critics hate {M0.him}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {M0.his}{F0.her}{G0.Their} books sell like crazy, so {M0.his}{F0.her}{G0.Their} publisher keeps paying {M0.him}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
Option 2 - Make messages gender neutral. Maybe like this?
The fans love {0.SimFirstName} The critics hate {0.SimFirstName} {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {0.SimFirstName} books sell like crazy, so {0.SimFirstName} publisher keeps paying {0.SimFirstName} And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
or for the team to switch older game texts to be gender neutral like current pack dialoged it would be impactful for those of us who are still unable to truly feel represented in the game by having our sims selves misgendered.
^
This!
We all have to embrace your difference but it's okay for you not to embrace ours and if we bark we are called names. I can understand the struggles in real life but your feelings are not worth more than anyone else's.
no one here has an issue with options just removal of things they like and if thats what your hopping for I hope you never ever get
that in game
We all have to embrace your difference but it's okay for you not to embrace ours and if we bark we are called names. I can understand the struggles in real life but your feelings are not worth more than anyone else's.
I don't want to be adversarial, but no one here is calling names.
I just really hope if they do add more pronoun options they'll do it properly and make them optional so we have choice. I worry that they'll take the lazy route and just nerf all gendered text and replace it all with "they" as it's easier, like when they nerfed occults instead of giving players the choice.
Till now it was him or her based on townie's gender. When they add non binary, they'll add they to him/her. Based on townie gender, him/her/they will appear in text. What's hard I guess is different languages to translate to.
That's what I'm saying, I hope they'll do it properly like that rather than taking the easy option and changing all text for all sims to they/them regardless of gender.
They won't change all text to only they/them regardless of gender, because in code him/her is variable (based on gender variable) while the rest of text is constant. They'll just add new pronoun and gender and it will be inserted in text same way. Also, if you change male sim to female, the text will be changed from him to her.
Hopefully, but some pop ups have already been made totally gender neutral (calls all sims a they) so it's possible
Here is an example of a line from the writer career, this line was mentioned in another thread. So I'm assuming this is how it could be done.
How the game does it right now:
The fans love {M0.him}{F0.her}. The critics hate {M0.him}{F0.her}. {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {M0.his}{F0.her} books sell like crazy, so {M0.his}{F0.her} publisher keeps paying {M0.him}{F0.her}. And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
Option 1- Add a third choice.
The fans love {M0.him}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. The critics hate {M0.him}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {M0.his}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. books sell like crazy, so {M0.his}{F0.her}{G0.Them} publisher keeps paying {M0.him}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
Option 2 - Make messages gender neutral. Maybe like this?
The fans love {0.SimFirstName} The critics hate {0.SimFirstName} {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {0.SimFirstName} books sell like crazy, so {0.SimFirstName} publisher keeps paying {0.SimFirstName} And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
Option 2 reads better I think. I.e. The fans love Bellina.
Whereas ‘but The fans love them’ or ‘them books sell like crazy’ doesn’t read as well.
Although this is where I’d like a toggle as I would like to read it how the game does it now.
or for the team to switch older game texts to be gender neutral like current pack dialoged it would be impactful for those of us who are still unable to truly feel represented in the game by having our sims selves misgendered.
^
This!
We all have to embrace your difference but it's okay for you not to embrace ours and if we bark we are called names. I can understand the struggles in real life but your feelings are not worth more than anyone else's.
@mannanna
I assume you’re criticizing the petition author who called for game texts to be gender neutral,(thus dismissing those who don’t feel represented through gender neutral text) rather than folks on here asking for options?
Because we’re the ones being called names (bigots) not the other way around.
Reading through comments I feel that there’s a misunderstanding, but perhaps I’m going loopers now.
Here is an example of a line from the writer career, this line was mentioned in another thread. So I'm assuming this is how it could be done.
How the game does it right now:
The fans love {M0.him}{F0.her}. The critics hate {M0.him}{F0.her}. {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {M0.his}{F0.her} books sell like crazy, so {M0.his}{F0.her} publisher keeps paying {M0.him}{F0.her}. And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
Option 1- Add a third choice.
The fans love {M0.him}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. The critics hate {M0.him}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {M0.his}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. books sell like crazy, so {M0.his}{F0.her}{G0.Them} publisher keeps paying {M0.him}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
Option 2 - Make messages gender neutral. Maybe like this?
The fans love {0.SimFirstName} The critics hate {0.SimFirstName} {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {0.SimFirstName} books sell like crazy, so {0.SimFirstName} publisher keeps paying {0.SimFirstName} And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
Option 2 reads better I think. I.e. The fans love Bellina.
Whereas ‘but The fans love them’ or ‘them books sell like crazy’ doesn’t read as well.
Although this is where I’d like a toggle as I would like to read it how the game does it now.
I would prefer option 1, that's like a toggle and people have the choice to pick what they want. What might make that difficult are the 18 different languages.
Option 2 is probably easier to add with the 18 different languages but that would remove the choice for people who would like to pick what they want.
or for the team to switch older game texts to be gender neutral like current pack dialoged it would be impactful for those of us who are still unable to truly feel represented in the game by having our sims selves misgendered.
^
This!
We all have to embrace your difference but it's okay for you not to embrace ours and if we bark we are called names. I can understand the struggles in real life but your feelings are not worth more than anyone else's.
no one here has an issue with options just removal of things they like and if thats what your hopping for I hope you never ever get
that in game
I don't - and I could live with options but not neutral.
or for the team to switch older game texts to be gender neutral like current pack dialoged it would be impactful for those of us who are still unable to truly feel represented in the game by having our sims selves misgendered.
^
This!
We all have to embrace your difference but it's okay for you not to embrace ours and if we bark we are called names. I can understand the struggles in real life but your feelings are not worth more than anyone else's.
@mannanna
I assume you’re criticizing the petition author who called for game texts to be gender neutral,(thus dismissing those who don’t feel represented through gender neutral text) rather than folks on here asking for options?
Because we’re the ones being called names (bigots) not the other way around.
Reading through comments I feel that there’s a misunderstanding, but perhaps I’m going loopers now.
or for the team to switch older game texts to be gender neutral like current pack dialoged it would be impactful for those of us who are still unable to truly feel represented in the game by having our sims selves misgendered.
^
This!
We all have to embrace your difference but it's okay for you not to embrace ours and if we bark we are called names. I can understand the struggles in real life but your feelings are not worth more than anyone else's.
@mannanna
I assume you’re criticizing the petition author who called for game texts to be gender neutral,(thus dismissing those who don’t feel represented through gender neutral text) rather than folks on here asking for options?
Because we’re the ones being called names (bigots) not the other way around.
Reading through comments I feel that there’s a misunderstanding, but perhaps I’m going loopers now.
I agree. They should definately include gender-neutral option so not to make everyone "they-persons". I have noticed how they have tried to get past gendered-pronouns since Discover University ("The robotic thing your sim made" can be found in their inventory).
Though I do think that instead of genderneutral button, maybe have a pronoun choice in case a player wants to make a trans-sim who is transitioning.
Option 2 - Make messages gender neutral. Maybe like this?
The fans love {0.SimFirstName} The critics hate {0.SimFirstName} {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {0.SimFirstName} books sell like crazy, so {0.SimFirstName} publisher keeps paying {0.SimFirstName} And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
Amanda knows Amanda is awesim, but Amanda feels insecure about Amanda's husband when he's out of Amanda's view. Also Amanda feels very cheerful today as Amanda is like that but then everyone around Amanda gets cheered to death from Amanda.
I agree. They should definately include gender-neutral option so not to make everyone "they-persons". I have noticed how they have tried to get past gendered-pronouns since Discover University ("The robotic thing your sim made" can be found in their inventory).
Though I do think that instead of genderneutral button, maybe have a pronoun choice in case a player wants to make a trans-sim who is transitioning.
Weird that they didn't put gender there like in other texts.
Amanda knows Amanda is awesim, but Amanda feels insecure about Amanda's husband when he's out of Amanda's view. Also Amanda feels very cheerful today as Amanda is like that but then everyone around Amanda gets cheered to death from Amanda.
I'm playing with gender neutral texts already. My female sims are referred as "hän". My male sims are referred as "hän". My non-binary sims are referred as "hän".
It works similarly in real life too, here in Finland. As a woman I'm referred as "hän", my boyfriend is referred as "hän" and my non-binary friend is referred as "hän". And it doesn't take away our genders, it doesn't make me less woman, my bf less man or my friend less non-binary. I'm beyond happy for our language, that pronouns are not used to describe someone's gender identity.
For other languages that don't have this gender neutrality naturally, my perception is that everyone's first wish in this community is options and opportunity to choose. That's what the petition asks primarily too if I understood right. For example more options in CAS and right pronouns to refer to those sims. I strongly think that non-binary people should be asked what kind of options these could be to best represent them, is one new one enough etc.
I see the suggestion of gender neutral texts being secondary to the option to add more genders and pronouns. Maybe it's seen as a compromise in the petition. As I have understood, "they" is a gender-neutral pronoun. Neutral meaning it doesn't refer specifically to any gender and so could be used to refer any sim, in spite of their gender. As we use "hän" in Finland. So using "they" of male or female sims is not similarly misgendering than using "she" or "he" of non-binary sim, since those straight away refer to specific, wrong gender (even though of course it could be better if everyone could be called as they prefer and not generic "they" if they don't feel like it... that's why the first option is better).
So is using gender-neutral language just so unfamiliar, that moving towards it would feel like nerfing genders? I just try to understand, since we already use gender-neutral language in this sense and I have no feelings about it, it doesn't take anything off from my gender identity. Or have I understood wrong and "they" refers right away to non-binary gender and that's why using it in the texts to refer male or female sims feels off-putting?
People seem divided on the options. Personally, I like the first option on the gender neutral language petition, because it recognises that people can be different and can be non binary, but it allows other people who wish to keep their binary gender identities for their sims, if they choose. I guess because English uses binary pronouns, the use of they in this context does seem non-binary.
I'm playing with gender neutral texts already. My female sims are referred as "hän". My male sims are referred as "hän". My non-binary sims are referred as "hän".
It works similarly in real life too, here in Finland. As a woman I'm referred as "hän", my boyfriend is referred as "hän" and my non-binary friend is referred as "hän". And it doesn't take away our genders, it doesn't make me less woman, my bf less man or my friend less non-binary. I'm beyond happy for our language, that pronouns are not used to describe someone's gender identity.
For other languages that don't have this gender neutrality naturally, my perception is that everyone's first wish in this community is options and opportunity to choose. That's what the petition asks primarily too if I understood right. For example more options in CAS and right pronouns to refer to those sims. I strongly think that non-binary people should be asked what kind of options these could be to best represent them, is one new one enough etc.
I see the suggestion of gender neutral texts being secondary to the option to add more genders and pronouns. Maybe it's seen as a compromise in the petition. As I have understood, "they" is a gender-neutral pronoun. Neutral meaning it doesn't refer specifically to any gender and so could be used to refer any sim, in spite of their gender. As we use "hän" in Finland. So using "they" of male or female sims is not similarly misgendering than using "she" or "he" of non-binary sim, since those straight away refer to specific, wrong gender (even though of course it could be better if everyone could be called as they prefer and not generic "they" if they don't feel like it... that's why the first option is better).
So is using gender-neutral language just so unfamiliar, that moving towards it would feel like nerfing genders? I just try to understand, since we already use gender-neutral language in this sense and I have no feelings about it, it doesn't take anything off from my gender identity. Or have I understood wrong and "they" refers right away to non-binary gender and that's why using it in the texts to refer male or female sims feels off-putting?
I see what you mean and it’s interesting to hear what other countries are doing. I had no idea Finland did this and thank you for sharing.
Or have I understood wrong and "they" refers right away to non-binary gender and that's why using it in the texts to refer male or female sims feels off-putting?
Yes. For myself, I don’t want my Sims being referred to as they. It’s not the gameplay I wish for. I want to see ‘he’ and ‘she’ because I’ve made those Sims for a reason. Too much realism is jarring for a computer game.
I agree that it would be impossible to represent everyone though and where do you draw the line? 🤔
I want wheelchairs added to the game but I would ask for options so those that don’t, could leave that be.
A toggle or something to tick in CAS to select is vital. Those that want it can choose it. It’s all about choices so people can play their way.
Option 2 is probably easier to add with the 18 different languages but that would remove the choice for people who would like to pick what they want.
It does not work with all languages. In Italian, for example, verbs, nouns, adjectives etc. are gendered. When a sim is promoted at work, you get the notification " Anna has been promoted to ...". In Italian it is "Anna è stata promossa ..." (feminine verb) or "Davide è stato promosso ..." (masculine verb). That is how it is now in game.
In order the phrase to be gender neutral it would be "Anna/Davide ha ottenuto una promozione"
That means that whole texts need to be written again, rephrased; just changing a pronoun or sims name is not enough in some cases.
Option 2 is probably easier to add with the 18 different languages but that would remove the choice for people who would like to pick what they want.
It does not work with all languages. In Italian, for example, verbs, nouns, adjectives etc. are gendered. When a sim is promoted at work, you get the notification " Anna has been promoted to ...". In Italian it is "Anna è stata promossa ..." (feminine verb) or "Davide è stato promosso ..." (masculine verb). That is how it is now in game.
In order the phrase to be gender neutral it would be "Anna/Davide ha ottenuto una promozione"
That means that whole texts need to be written again, rephrased; just changing a pronoun or sims name is not enough in some cases.
I suspected that... that makes me wonder how much text that would need to be completely rewritten to work with 18 languages.
I have to admit, I'm not a fan of them adding a non-binary option for sims, I find it pointless and I also wonder how it'll be implemented in CaS and creation of new NPC's/townie sims (and if we'll suddenly be overrun by non-binary sims, like how there's always an influx of themed names after a themed pack comes out, like with Island Living and Snowy Escape) I also don't know how they're going to use non-binary pronouns and if it's going to completely replace she/he/him/her. HOWEVER! I am happy for it to be included as a toggle for simmers who do want it, so they can fully/properly express themselves or their sims in the game. As with anything, I just feel the Guru's should carefully weigh their options before deciding upon anything.
Give our Vampires back their fangs!!! Reverse the Nerf!!! Occult simmers should not be shoved aside for the "realism players"! It's time Occult lovers/players started to demand equal treatment. #JusticeForOccults
"I noticed that some of the Sims in my neighborhood are Black (like Vivian Lewis). Is there a toggle I can use to prevent that from appearing in my game?"
No, of course I don't mind that Sims vary, and have diverse skin tones. But everyone asking to omit non-binary options, this is what you sound like. Maybe re-think why you have the objections you have.
I don’t think anyone here is asking for non-binary options to be omitted. I believe this is more about not wanting non-binary pronouns to replace “ he” or “she”. I’m not trying to speak for anybody else though, but this is something I would object to. My sim is either born he or she and anything beyond that should be optional.
That being said, I’d have no problem with npc’s being generated with different gender identities if that’s how they want to express themselves.
However, I would certainly be against full automatic replacement of he/ she with they/ them, just because it’s perhaps the easy way out from a development perspective.
Non-Binary (or whatever else is out there) could be optional in CAS similar to the way I choose either male or female, skin tone, hair colour etc. but where do you stop?
This, right here.
I'm all for the inclusion of non-binary options and the addition of pronouns, as long as they're just that... optional additions. As as cis female myself, I still want to be able to use feminine pronouns for my Simself and have her be referred to as such.
I see what you mean and it’s interesting to hear what other countries are doing. I had no idea Finland did this and thank you for sharing.
Or have I understood wrong and "they" refers right away to non-binary gender and that's why using it in the texts to refer male or female sims feels off-putting?
Yes. For myself, I don’t want my Sims being referred to as they. It’s not the gameplay I wish for. I want to see ‘he’ and ‘she’ because I’ve made those Sims for a reason. Too much realism is jarring for a computer game.
I agree that it would be impossible to represent everyone though and where do you draw the line? 🤔
I want wheelchairs added to the game but I would ask for options so those that don’t, could leave that be.
A toggle or something to tick in CAS to select is vital. Those that want it can choose it. It’s all about choices so people can play their way.
I see, it might be important to players to see also the gendered pronouns in the game, as they seem to describe the sim in a way the player has meant to? I guess it's the exact same reason behind the demand for more pronouns, players make their non-binary sims for a reason and also want to see their true pronouns. Then it seems it would be ideal if the team found a way to bring more pronoun options to game, and not just make all language gender-neutral.
And where to draw the line with pronouns? I think we should listen to our non-binary players in the community in this question, maybe they already have an idea where to draw it and what would be enough for them to feel represented also? Even if not everyone's specific gender identity can be included it should not mean nothing is done, in my opinion. Like, with the new skin colours. Not everyone is still represented with them, but it doesn't mean it should have not done at all.
And I agree that some kind of toggle is needed in CAS, so you can still choose your own sim's gender and pronouns and take townies to CAS and edit them if you want, as it have been to this day (changing their clothes, eye colour, body frame, name etc.). But if we are talking about some kind of new general toggle in the settings, I'm not sure. It would be wonderful if there were a wider palette of options like that, so we could choose more specifically what kind of sims the game generates, like toggles to choose by their age, genetics, gender, species etc. But if there is only one new toggle: "no non-binary sims in my game", it smells like discrimination to me. It's ok if a player don't want them there, but there is the same way to delete non-binary sims from the game as there is to delete all the others, toddlers or dogs or what ever one wants to delete. And if they'll end up choosing to use gender-neutral language, I think the toggle to choose the old or new way of language would be welcome.
or for the team to switch older game texts to be gender neutral like current pack dialoged it would be impactful for those of us who are still unable to truly feel represented in the game by having our sims selves misgendered.
I’d say why?
Calling for all game texts to be gender neutral is the same thing as me asking for non binary/ transgender options to be omitted (which me nor anybody else did as far as I know). Same principle, unless I misunderstood.
Did I misunderstand? 🤔
Ps: Trying to learn, not to offend.
Once again you read my mind. And if I'm being honest, it's because of this part of the petition that I refuse to sign it. And unless they take the bit out about switching older game texts to be all gender-neutral, I absolutely will not sign it. And if anything, I'd argue that choosing to go this route would actually be counterintuitive to this whole thing.
Because by the devs changing all text to reflect those who choose to use gender neutral pronouns, they'd actually be excluding a majority of the players (ie those who use feminine or masculine pronouns.) Which, would again be counterintuitive and the exact opposite of representation for all. So you're right @CAPTAIN_NXR7 by saying this is is no different than asking for non-binary/transgender options to be omitted.
And to clarify once again in case some people didn't read my last post: I am not for gender-neutral options to be left out. I just want them to remain 100% optional and for us not to have forced gender-neutrality.
This is exactly what I'm worried about and why the one-sidedness bothers me. So it's okay to erase all male/female pronouns but not okay to erase all non binary pronouns if they were to be added?
If maxis is reading this, please do not allow traditional male/female pronouns or references to get erased. I'm a girl playing with boy and girl sims. Any one who chooses to play how they decide is perfectly fine. But don't erase my sims identity.
I stand by those who want "CHOICES"
if pronouns are to be added. Just like I wanted choices on rather my sim should go to a restaurant and gobble it in two bites or never be able to enjoy a long family dinner again but the choice was taken away by the loud majority complaining.
Don't take away our options. Add to them if you must. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
I'm honestly super glad to see that so many others on this thread share my opinion. Especially since I often keep my opinions to myself so as not to get involved in the conflict.
But I do feel those who are campaigning for all gender-neutral language are essentially trying to erase all male/female pronouns, which as stated by multiple of us now is the same as erasing all non-binary pronouns. There is no difference in how this would theoretically end up being implemented. Only how one chooses to read the situation. Because one scenario excludes the minority it is seen as being "bigotry" but as long as it's the majority who would theoretically be dismissed, it's "okay?"
It just makes no sense and is extremely hypocritical.
I get that it would not be easy to implement this change into 18+ languages (I say + in case any more are added) but to me, the choice to be able to use male/female pronouns if I choose so is an absolute must. Otherwise, those of us who use male/female pronouns should have every right to be livid and rage on forums, twitter, etc.
Comments
How the game does it right now:
The fans love {M0.him}{F0.her}. The critics hate {M0.him}{F0.her}. {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {M0.his}{F0.her} books sell like crazy, so {M0.his}{F0.her} publisher keeps paying {M0.him}{F0.her}. And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
Option 1- Add a third choice.
The fans love {M0.him}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. The critics hate {M0.him}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {M0.his}{F0.her}{G0.Their} books sell like crazy, so {M0.his}{F0.her}{G0.Their} publisher keeps paying {M0.him}{F0.her}{G0.Them}. And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
Option 2 - Make messages gender neutral. Maybe like this?
The fans love {0.SimFirstName} The critics hate {0.SimFirstName} {0.SimFirstName} might be churning out sub-literate dreck, but {0.SimFirstName} books sell like crazy, so {0.SimFirstName} publisher keeps paying {0.SimFirstName} And that’s the real measure of literary success. Right?
no one here has an issue with options just removal of things they like and if thats what your hopping for I hope you never ever get
that in game
I don't want to be adversarial, but no one here is calling names.
Hopefully, but some pop ups have already been made totally gender neutral (calls all sims a they) so it's possible
Option 2 reads better I think. I.e. The fans love Bellina.
Whereas ‘but The fans love them’ or ‘them books sell like crazy’ doesn’t read as well.
Although this is where I’d like a toggle as I would like to read it how the game does it now.
@mannanna
I assume you’re criticizing the petition author who called for game texts to be gender neutral,(thus dismissing those who don’t feel represented through gender neutral text) rather than folks on here asking for options?
Because we’re the ones being called names (bigots) not the other way around.
Reading through comments I feel that there’s a misunderstanding, but perhaps I’m going loopers now.
Extremely possible. 😂
I would prefer option 1, that's like a toggle and people have the choice to pick what they want. What might make that difficult are the 18 different languages.
Option 2 is probably easier to add with the 18 different languages but that would remove the choice for people who would like to pick what they want.
Sorry, that's my fault I read the message the other way.
I don't - and I could live with options but not neutral.
You're right
oh sorry I misunderstood
Though I do think that instead of genderneutral button, maybe have a pronoun choice in case a player wants to make a trans-sim who is transitioning.
Amanda knows Amanda is awesim, but Amanda feels insecure about Amanda's husband when he's out of Amanda's view. Also Amanda feels very cheerful today as Amanda is like that but then everyone around Amanda gets cheered to death from Amanda.
Weird that they didn't put gender there like in other texts.
Exactly! It sounds completely nuts! 😂
It works similarly in real life too, here in Finland. As a woman I'm referred as "hän", my boyfriend is referred as "hän" and my non-binary friend is referred as "hän". And it doesn't take away our genders, it doesn't make me less woman, my bf less man or my friend less non-binary. I'm beyond happy for our language, that pronouns are not used to describe someone's gender identity.
For other languages that don't have this gender neutrality naturally, my perception is that everyone's first wish in this community is options and opportunity to choose. That's what the petition asks primarily too if I understood right. For example more options in CAS and right pronouns to refer to those sims. I strongly think that non-binary people should be asked what kind of options these could be to best represent them, is one new one enough etc.
I see the suggestion of gender neutral texts being secondary to the option to add more genders and pronouns. Maybe it's seen as a compromise in the petition. As I have understood, "they" is a gender-neutral pronoun. Neutral meaning it doesn't refer specifically to any gender and so could be used to refer any sim, in spite of their gender. As we use "hän" in Finland. So using "they" of male or female sims is not similarly misgendering than using "she" or "he" of non-binary sim, since those straight away refer to specific, wrong gender (even though of course it could be better if everyone could be called as they prefer and not generic "they" if they don't feel like it... that's why the first option is better).
So is using gender-neutral language just so unfamiliar, that moving towards it would feel like nerfing genders? I just try to understand, since we already use gender-neutral language in this sense and I have no feelings about it, it doesn't take anything off from my gender identity. Or have I understood wrong and "they" refers right away to non-binary gender and that's why using it in the texts to refer male or female sims feels off-putting?
I see what you mean and it’s interesting to hear what other countries are doing. I had no idea Finland did this and thank you for sharing.
Or have I understood wrong and "they" refers right away to non-binary gender and that's why using it in the texts to refer male or female sims feels off-putting?
Yes. For myself, I don’t want my Sims being referred to as they. It’s not the gameplay I wish for. I want to see ‘he’ and ‘she’ because I’ve made those Sims for a reason. Too much realism is jarring for a computer game.
I agree that it would be impossible to represent everyone though and where do you draw the line? 🤔
I want wheelchairs added to the game but I would ask for options so those that don’t, could leave that be.
A toggle or something to tick in CAS to select is vital. Those that want it can choose it. It’s all about choices so people can play their way.
It does not work with all languages. In Italian, for example, verbs, nouns, adjectives etc. are gendered. When a sim is promoted at work, you get the notification " Anna has been promoted to ...". In Italian it is "Anna è stata promossa ..." (feminine verb) or "Davide è stato promosso ..." (masculine verb). That is how it is now in game.
In order the phrase to be gender neutral it would be "Anna/Davide ha ottenuto una promozione"
That means that whole texts need to be written again, rephrased; just changing a pronoun or sims name is not enough in some cases.
I suspected that... that makes me wonder how much text that would need to be completely rewritten to work with 18 languages.
HOWEVER! I am happy for it to be included as a toggle for simmers who do want it, so they can fully/properly express themselves or their sims in the game. As with anything, I just feel the Guru's should carefully weigh their options before deciding upon anything.
This, right here.
I'm all for the inclusion of non-binary options and the addition of pronouns, as long as they're just that... optional additions. As as cis female myself, I still want to be able to use feminine pronouns for my Simself and have her be referred to as such.
I see, it might be important to players to see also the gendered pronouns in the game, as they seem to describe the sim in a way the player has meant to? I guess it's the exact same reason behind the demand for more pronouns, players make their non-binary sims for a reason and also want to see their true pronouns. Then it seems it would be ideal if the team found a way to bring more pronoun options to game, and not just make all language gender-neutral.
And where to draw the line with pronouns? I think we should listen to our non-binary players in the community in this question, maybe they already have an idea where to draw it and what would be enough for them to feel represented also? Even if not everyone's specific gender identity can be included it should not mean nothing is done, in my opinion. Like, with the new skin colours. Not everyone is still represented with them, but it doesn't mean it should have not done at all.
And I agree that some kind of toggle is needed in CAS, so you can still choose your own sim's gender and pronouns and take townies to CAS and edit them if you want, as it have been to this day (changing their clothes, eye colour, body frame, name etc.). But if we are talking about some kind of new general toggle in the settings, I'm not sure. It would be wonderful if there were a wider palette of options like that, so we could choose more specifically what kind of sims the game generates, like toggles to choose by their age, genetics, gender, species etc. But if there is only one new toggle: "no non-binary sims in my game", it smells like discrimination to me. It's ok if a player don't want them there, but there is the same way to delete non-binary sims from the game as there is to delete all the others, toddlers or dogs or what ever one wants to delete. And if they'll end up choosing to use gender-neutral language, I think the toggle to choose the old or new way of language would be welcome.
Once again you read my mind. And if I'm being honest, it's because of this part of the petition that I refuse to sign it. And unless they take the bit out about switching older game texts to be all gender-neutral, I absolutely will not sign it. And if anything, I'd argue that choosing to go this route would actually be counterintuitive to this whole thing.
Because by the devs changing all text to reflect those who choose to use gender neutral pronouns, they'd actually be excluding a majority of the players (ie those who use feminine or masculine pronouns.) Which, would again be counterintuitive and the exact opposite of representation for all. So you're right @CAPTAIN_NXR7 by saying this is is no different than asking for non-binary/transgender options to be omitted.
And to clarify once again in case some people didn't read my last post: I am not for gender-neutral options to be left out. I just want them to remain 100% optional and for us not to have forced gender-neutrality.
I'm honestly super glad to see that so many others on this thread share my opinion. Especially since I often keep my opinions to myself so as not to get involved in the conflict.
But I do feel those who are campaigning for all gender-neutral language are essentially trying to erase all male/female pronouns, which as stated by multiple of us now is the same as erasing all non-binary pronouns. There is no difference in how this would theoretically end up being implemented. Only how one chooses to read the situation. Because one scenario excludes the minority it is seen as being "bigotry" but as long as it's the majority who would theoretically be dismissed, it's "okay?"
It just makes no sense and is extremely hypocritical.
I get that it would not be easy to implement this change into 18+ languages (I say + in case any more are added) but to me, the choice to be able to use male/female pronouns if I choose so is an absolute must. Otherwise, those of us who use male/female pronouns should have every right to be livid and rage on forums, twitter, etc.