So who do you want represented? You talk about how you feel excluded and left out but you don't actually say what representation you want in the game.
It's not about "who". At least that is what I think. It's about represented as a whole when it comes to creating Sims. It bothers me that the game is becoming political - as in American politics. I'm not ashamed to say that my skin color and hair color is not all that well represented, and what someone else said, male sims. I like that they add clothing and furniture styles from different part of the world but creating a perfect copy of yourself - is it necessary for the game to be good? I much rather they spend time and effort on the game play itself rather than trying to be politically correct.
Edited to clarify: flags, pronoun, skin tones - it's all a bundle trying to represent instead of focusing on gameplay.
The couple of flags a year don’t bother me. Some unpaid intern probably does them in 5 minutes. I would have really liked something for mother‘s day, international women‘s day or international children‘s day though.
Yeah I wish they stuff for other events.But maybe its not the patches.But maybe Ea should not make it a big deal
I feel like a culture that does not get represented the mid west, or the south.
They're making too big a deal out of it. It was cool and thoughtful how sims in the first game didn't give a rat's behind about gender and just loved (and fought) each other freely. It felt natural, nothing about it seemed forced. These days there's a whole parade going on about how inclusive they are, but imo, it's a step back.
It used to be normal, sims can be gay and people can be too. The way it should be. You don't need to TELL EVERYONE ABOUT IT. It shouldn't have to be some kind of special thing. It just needs to be normal, and they already had that.
The irony of it all is that with all the LGBTQ+ updates, the game isn't just letting you be gay anymore. It's telling you how to be gay. With pride flags and shirts.
Exactly this. It's exactly like some books I read with lgbtq characters. It kinda disturbed me because it felt like I was reading a "gay" book with a bit of story that had to constantly announce how gay/different/special they were. Just to make sure I never forgot it.
But what I actually was hoping for when I read them was a "story" book with gay characters that shows their everyday "normal" life. Their hopes and dreams, aspirations and life struggles just like normal people have.
I feel like that's the best way to be accepted and normalized is just to go about it well... normally🙆♀️
And I agree that the older sims did that well. No one had to make a spectacle about it.
But I guess you can say that about everything in 2021😆😆😆
They're making too big a deal out of it. It was cool and thoughtful how sims in the first game didn't give a rat's behind about gender and just loved (and fought) each other freely. It felt natural, nothing about it seemed forced. These days there's a whole parade going on about how inclusive they are, but imo, it's a step back.
It used to be normal, sims can be gay and people can be too. The way it should be. You don't need to TELL EVERYONE ABOUT IT. It shouldn't have to be some kind of special thing. It just needs to be normal, and they already had that.
The irony of it all is that with all the LGBTQ+ updates, the game isn't just letting you be gay anymore. It's telling you how to be gay. With pride flags and shirts.
Exactly this. It's exactly like some books I read with lgbtq characters. It kinda disturbed me because it felt like I was reading a "gay" book with a bit of story that had to constantly announce how gay/different/special they were. Just to make sure I never forgot it.
But what I actually was hoping for when I read them was a "story" book with gay characters that shows their everyday "normal" life. Their hopes and dreams, aspirations and life struggles just like normal people have.
I feel like that's the best way to be accepted and normalized is just to go about it well... normally🙆♀️
And I agree that the older sims did that well. No one had to make a spectacle about it.
But I guess you can say that about everything in 2021😆😆😆
I understand that and those books bother me too. But my problem is that it is currently impossible to make characters that go by they/them pronouns. Having the option is not "making a spectacle about it."
So who do you want represented? You talk about how you feel excluded and left out but you don't actually say what representation you want in the game.
It's not about "who". At least that is what I think. It's about represented as a whole when it comes to creating Sims. It bothers me that the game is becoming political - as in American politics. I'm not ashamed to say that my skin color and hair color is not all that well represented, and what someone else said, male sims. I like that they add clothing and furniture styles from different part of the world but creating a perfect copy of yourself - is it necessary for the game to be good? I much rather they spend time and effort on the game play itself rather than trying to be politically correct.
exactly! one of my favorite games is a shooter where the characters are 9 men. did i need to see myself on the game to like it? no, because what attracted me to play was the gameplay. so much for inclusion on the sims 4 yet it's all set dressing, you can make the prettiest sim but what's it for, if there's barely stuff to do on the game. the actual group being left out are the long time sims players. it's hard to get sims 1 & sims 2, and sims 4 wants to be everything except similar to past games, and don't get me started on the sims 5.
They're making too big a deal out of it. It was cool and thoughtful how sims in the first game didn't give a rat's behind about gender and just loved (and fought) each other freely. It felt natural, nothing about it seemed forced. These days there's a whole parade going on about how inclusive they are, but imo, it's a step back.
It used to be normal, sims can be gay and people can be too. The way it should be. You don't need to TELL EVERYONE ABOUT IT. It shouldn't have to be some kind of special thing. It just needs to be normal, and they already had that.
The irony of it all is that with all the LGBTQ+ updates, the game isn't just letting you be gay anymore. It's telling you how to be gay. With pride flags and shirts.
Exactly this. It's exactly like some books I read with lgbtq characters. It kinda disturbed me because it felt like I was reading a "gay" book with a bit of story that had to constantly announce how gay/different/special they were. Just to make sure I never forgot it.
But what I actually was hoping for when I read them was a "story" book with gay characters that shows their everyday "normal" life. Their hopes and dreams, aspirations and life struggles just like normal people have.
I feel like that's the best way to be accepted and normalized is just to go about it well... normally🙆♀️
And I agree that the older sims did that well. No one had to make a spectacle about it.
But I guess you can say that about everything in 2021😆😆😆
It sad how this becoming more common.Characters can't be characters they have to be mascot.Instead of hey its just happen to be this way.
From my point of view, The Sims Team has indeed made some bad moves when it comes to some things in-game. When I heard that they are adding pronouns I had (and I still have) mixed feelings. It's great that they are expanding representations in-game but at the same time, they are neglecting many core things of a game.
I don't understand why they are focusing on adding pronouns (text in-game) that will take a lot of time and money when they could be focusing on more important things like improving already released packs or adding more gameplay features (babies, cars, etc.) and more settings options (lifespan, occult controls, etc.). The Sims 4 is a game that lacks a lot of gameplay and just changing the displayed text won't improve much.
So who do you want represented? You talk about how you feel excluded and left out but you don't actually say what representation you want in the game.
It's not about "who". At least that is what I think. It's about represented as a whole when it comes to creating Sims. It bothers me that the game is becoming political - as in American politics. I'm not ashamed to say that my skin color and hair color is not all that well represented, and what someone else said, male sims. I like that they add clothing and furniture styles from different part of the world but creating a perfect copy of yourself - is it necessary for the game to be good? I much rather they spend time and effort on the game play itself rather than trying to be politically correct.
exactly! one of my favorite games is a shooter where the characters are 9 men. did i need to see myself on the game to like it? no, because what attracted me to play was the gameplay. so much for inclusion on the sims 4 yet it's all set dressing, you can make the prettiest sim but what's it for, if there's barely stuff to do on the game. the actual group being left out are the long time sims players. it's hard to get sims 1 & sims 2, and sims 4 wants to be everything except similar to past games, and don't get me started on the sims 5.
So who do you want represented? You talk about how you feel excluded and left out but you don't actually say what representation you want in the game.
It's not about "who". At least that is what I think. It's about represented as a whole when it comes to creating Sims. It bothers me that the game is becoming political - as in American politics. I'm not ashamed to say that my skin color and hair color is not all that well represented, and what someone else said, male sims. I like that they add clothing and furniture styles from different part of the world but creating a perfect copy of yourself - is it necessary for the game to be good? I much rather they spend time and effort on the game play itself rather than trying to be politically correct.
@manannan Thanks for the reply! Interesting to read your opinion on the matter. Sorry for waffling, I wanted to make my reply sound as polite as possible.
OP says, 'What other groups are you promoting?' so I am guessing it's likely to be about the 'who'. The thing is, a lot of people have said to me personally that they feel excluded because of people like me, but they don't explain what changes they would like to see, specifically, or what groups they'd like to see more rep for.
I personally disagree; I do not see how a couple of optional Pride T-shirts, optional LGBT+ Sims and optional and Pride Flags is 'becoming political', IMO. If people don't want LGBT+ Sims, then they can choose not to play them, they can choose not to use the flags or the T-shirts as well if they want. The LGBT+ Sims and content are entirely optional; the power is in the hands of the player, to choose what kind of Sims they do and don't play as in their save file. Unfortunately, the trouble with people wanting games to be less 'politically correct', is that what is considered 'too much' representation is going to be very different from player to player. Even the smallest, most optional addition might be 'too much' for somebody.
I don't ever make Sims who are like me- I already have to put up with myself all the time and that's bad enough, I don't want me in the game I play to relax! : P Joking aside I know some people do, and it's good that progress has been made in allowing people from different backgrounds to make Sims like themselves. Aside from Sim-selves, not everyone wants to make a 'perfect copy of themselves', some just want to make Sims who share their experience somehow. It can feel validating and refreshing to some people. As a side point, I personally don't think there's any such thing as too much representation, especially for a sandbox game. The whole idea of sandbox games is the choice, the (comparative to other game types) creativity and the breadth of things to do and make, so it makes sense that creators of such a game would do their part to include as many different experiences as possible.
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with me. I will say no more on the matter since I've summed up my outlook on the overall matter entirely, but I really appreciate your response and sharing your ideas.
So who do you want represented? You talk about how you feel excluded and left out but you don't actually say what representation you want in the game.
It's not about "who". At least that is what I think. It's about represented as a whole when it comes to creating Sims. It bothers me that the game is becoming political - as in American politics. I'm not ashamed to say that my skin color and hair color is not all that well represented, and what someone else said, male sims. I like that they add clothing and furniture styles from different part of the world but creating a perfect copy of yourself - is it necessary for the game to be good? I much rather they spend time and effort on the game play itself rather than trying to be politically correct.
@manannan Thanks for the reply! Interesting to read your opinion on the matter. Sorry for waffling, I wanted to make my reply sound as polite as possible.
OP says, 'What other groups are you promoting?' so I am guessing it's likely to be about the 'who'. The thing is, a lot of people have said to me personally that they feel excluded because of people like me, but they don't explain what changes they would like to see, specifically, or what groups they'd like to see more rep for.
I personally disagree; I do not see how a couple of optional Pride T-shirts, optional LGBT+ Sims and optional and Pride Flags is 'becoming political', IMO. If people don't want LGBT+ Sims, then they can choose not to play them, they can choose not to use the flags or the T-shirts as well if they want. The LGBT+ Sims and content are entirely optional; the power is in the hands of the player, to choose what kind of Sims they do and don't play as in their save file. Unfortunately, the trouble with people wanting games to be less 'politically correct', is that what is considered 'too much' representation is going to be very different from player to player. Even the smallest, most optional addition might be 'too much' for somebody.
I don't ever make Sims who are like me- I already have to put up with myself all the time and that's bad enough, I don't want me in the game I play to relax! : P Joking aside I know some people do, and it's good that progress has been made in allowing people from different backgrounds to make Sims like themselves. Aside from Sim-selves, not everyone wants to make a 'perfect copy of themselves', some just want to make Sims who share their experience somehow. It can feel validating and refreshing to some people. As a side point, I personally don't think there's any such thing as too much representation, especially for a sandbox game. The whole idea of sandbox games is the choice, the (comparative to other game types) creativity and the breadth of things to do and make, so it makes sense that creators of such a game would do their part to include as many different experiences as possible.
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with me. I will say no more on the matter since I've summed up my outlook on the overall matter entirely, but I really appreciate your response and sharing your ideas.
The problem is on the side of the developers, I am also "one of your kind" as you could say but it's funny to me how you can have (in the future, they're working on it) different pronouns and wear t-shirts with flags but at the same time be an object as a baby. I want a live simulator, not a human creator or building simulator.
From my point of view, The Sims Team has indeed made some bad moves when it comes to some things in-game. When I heard that they are adding pronouns I had (and I still have) mixed feelings. It's great that they are expanding representations in-game but at the same time, they are neglecting many core things of a game.
I don't understand why they are focusing on adding pronouns (text in-game) that will take a lot of time and money when they could be focusing on more important things like improving already released packs or adding more gameplay features (babies, cars, etc.) and more settings options (lifespan, occult controls, etc.). The Sims 4 is a game that lacks a lot of gameplay and just changing the displayed text won't improve much.
This is why it's so difficult to talk about this. In game development they always have to take decisions to decide what they will spend their time working on. And because it's about representation it's really difficult to say to the community that "the game was not built for it" because people will just see that as Maxis not caring about certain types of people.
So now Maxis are probably thinking how they are going to be able to add pronouns when the game was built from the ground up to not have it so they have to spend who knows how many days, weeks, months changing their lines of code instead of them working on something else.
In my opinion, it's not worth it if it's going to require a lot of work. If they could find a way to streamline the process, then maybe. I don't think people asking for pronouns are realizing what a huge undertaking it is if it would be done manually.
From my point of view, The Sims Team has indeed made some bad moves when it comes to some things in-game. When I heard that they are adding pronouns I had (and I still have) mixed feelings. It's great that they are expanding representations in-game but at the same time, they are neglecting many core things of a game.
I don't understand why they are focusing on adding pronouns (text in-game) that will take a lot of time and money when they could be focusing on more important things like improving already released packs or adding more gameplay features (babies, cars, etc.) and more settings options (lifespan, occult controls, etc.). The Sims 4 is a game that lacks a lot of gameplay and just changing the displayed text won't improve much.
This is why it's so difficult to talk about this. In game development they always have to take decisions to decide what they will spend their time working on. And because it's about representation it's really difficult to say to the community that "the game was not built for it" because people will just see that as Maxis not caring about certain types of people.
So now Maxis are probably thinking how they are going to be able to add pronouns when the game was built from the ground up to not have it so they have to spend who knows how many days, weeks, months changing their lines of code instead of them working on something else.
In my opinion, it's not worth it if it's going to require a lot of work. If they could find a way to streamline the process, then maybe. I don't think people asking for pronouns are realizing what a huge undertaking it is if it would be done manually.
At this point all I'm asking for is them in TS5. No matter how much I want something doesn't change the fact that it would be difficult and EA doesn't pay the bills for "difficult". With TS4 it's just another thing on the list of "working on it" but I still have hope for the next game.
I personally disagree; I do not see how a couple of optional Pride T-shirts, optional LGBT+ Sims and optional and Pride Flags is 'becoming political', IMO. If people don't want LGBT+ Sims, then they can choose not to play them, they can choose not to use the flags or the T-shirts as well if they want. The LGBT+ Sims and content are entirely optional; the power is in the hands of the player, to choose what kind of Sims they do and don't play as in their save file. Unfortunately, the trouble with people wanting games to be less 'politically correct', is that what is considered 'too much' representation is going to be very different from player to player. Even the smallest, most optional addition might be 'too much' for somebody.
Disagreeing is fine. I don't know if you saw my previous post. Adding real life flags is trying to be politically correct in my opinion. There has never been anything "real life" included in the Sims before. Had they been flags that insinuated pride flags it would have been a different matter.
What is next when it comes to representation? Religion? ...and then one religion gets overlooked?
From my point of view, The Sims Team has indeed made some bad moves when it comes to some things in-game. When I heard that they are adding pronouns I had (and I still have) mixed feelings. It's great that they are expanding representations in-game but at the same time, they are neglecting many core things of a game.
I don't understand why they are focusing on adding pronouns (text in-game) that will take a lot of time and money when they could be focusing on more important things like improving already released packs or adding more gameplay features (babies, cars, etc.) and more settings options (lifespan, occult controls, etc.). The Sims 4 is a game that lacks a lot of gameplay and just changing the displayed text won't improve much.
This is why it's so difficult to talk about this. In game development they always have to take decisions to decide what they will spend their time working on. And because it's about representation it's really difficult to say to the community that "the game was not built for it" because people will just see that as Maxis not caring about certain types of people.
So now Maxis are probably thinking how they are going to be able to add pronouns when the game was built from the ground up to not have it so they have to spend who knows how many days, weeks, months changing their lines of code instead of them working on something else.
In my opinion, it's not worth it if it's going to require a lot of work. If they could find a way to streamline the process, then maybe. I don't think people asking for pronouns are realizing what a huge undertaking it is if it would be done manually.
At this point all I'm asking for is them in TS5. No matter how much I want something doesn't change the fact that it would be difficult and EA doesn't pay the bills for "difficult". With TS4 it's just another thing on the list of "working on it" but I still have hope for the next game.
With a new game it should be possible.
I would like for you to be able to have They/Them to the sims4, but the more I think of it, the more I'm starting to realize that so much in the game is built around He/She, when a baby is being born, the game says "It's a boy!" or "It's a girl!" How does generating outfits work? How does relationships work? Is it okay to have a boyfriend or a girlfriend?
The list of things that needs to be configured is starting to get really long... we are not talking about a small patch anymore, this is starting to sound like a huge base game update.
It's marketing. BLM and LGBT are front page news so companies like EA try to get a piece of the action. It's all about money and stockholders. I'm just happy after 7 years we are finally getting cook tops.
So who do you want represented? You talk about how you feel excluded and left out but you don't actually say what representation you want in the game.
It's not about "who". At least that is what I think. It's about represented as a whole when it comes to creating Sims. It bothers me that the game is becoming political - as in American politics. I'm not ashamed to say that my skin color and hair color is not all that well represented, and what someone else said, male sims. I like that they add clothing and furniture styles from different part of the world but creating a perfect copy of yourself - is it necessary for the game to be good? I much rather they spend time and effort on the game play itself rather than trying to be politically correct.
exactly! one of my favorite games is a shooter where the characters are 9 men. did i need to see myself on the game to like it? no, because what attracted me to play was the gameplay. so much for inclusion on the sims 4 yet it's all set dressing, you can make the prettiest sim but what's it for, if there's barely stuff to do on the game. the actual group being left out are the long time sims players. it's hard to get sims 1 & sims 2, and sims 4 wants to be everything except similar to past games, and don't get me started on the sims 5.
I have to agree with this. I play a wide variety of games and very few I’m represented in and I don’t care. And when I make characters in games like Skyrim or Animal crossing, it’s not a representation of myself. I do understand that lots of people now make sim selves and it’s important to them and that’s fine.
I have a severe life limiting health condition. I see people all the time ask for it or things like it to be in the game and the day it happens is the day I will uninstall the game. I play games to escape my health. The idea of people using my illness or any disability for an entertaining story makes me feel a little sick. But I know disabilities are also highly requested and for those that have disabilities that’s their right as it’s mine to not want it.
I have played The Sims since the original. Back then sims could have same sex relationships and marriages, if anything it was very ahead of its time. The devs didn’t make a huge song and dance about it. Now in every trailer for a pack you can bet there’s an LGBTQ sim in the trailer. And before anyone comes for me, I’m not against that, I just don’t like EA screaming from the rooftops (as they did with the gender update) about how inclusive they were/are. I mean congratulations EA for doing something you have always done but now you want massive pats on the back for it. Other games with a character creation don’t sell their games on “look how inclusive we are” the game is sold on the game play because from an entertainment and longevity perspective thats what is going to engage the player.
The sims for me is becoming less and less of a game and more of a propaganda machine. For example when they had the advert (which purposely excluded any sims fan over 25) talking about what the game meant to them, the advert spoke about playing with life over a montage of various simmers discussing how the game helped them with personal issues. Not one piece of in game footage was actually shown. The CM said about a year ago that the game is a safe space where we can all learn and grow. And that to me Isn’t the sims at its heart. I don’t play a video game to learn and to grow. The sims has always been my safe space where life happened. Sometimes bad things happened, consequences. It wasn’t unicorn land where everyone adored each other. It was a life sim.
I'm lesbian and I agree with the OP. Stop using me as virtue signal fodder.
Plenty of us aren't into the flag-waving pride culture. I don't need or want everyone's attention on my sexuality. For me, that's the opposite of normalization.
In seven years the LGBTQ+ community got what? Flags and a couple of t-shirts?
Would the representation of such folks in trailers and the 'mo choice' update count?
What seems to be under/not represented adequately:
elderly
disabled
native peoples of North & South America (including Eskimos) Australia & New Zealand
southern & central Europe
As has been pointed out in anther thread, EA 'inclusiveness' seems driven more by revenue/market response than an internal moral compass. How many Eskimos or Haida Indians play the Sims, any version?
For those who keep pressing to name some groups. I shouldn't have to name groups of peoples because the game shouldn't be about groups of peoples in so much that representation gameplay is exactly that, just gameplay. Playing Simself is just another form of gameplay like any other type of gameplay. To those of you who sort of agreed with me about my original post, I want to thank you because you understood what I was saying and it didn't just go above your heads because if I say anymore then the thread (feedback) will devolve into something less than what I meant and or more than what I meant, and off subject.
This isn't about which groups though true only a few holidays of other cultures got any special attention from Maxis celebrating Hispanic culture, a few times, but this thread really isn't about which groups but how one form of gameplay (Simself/ representation) has become the (entire focus?) game...rather than a game being a game of gameplay. It is now the form of acceptable gameplay type, rather than a diverse world of many types of players. But if I even go into to that to explain some things the original post will get lost in a meaning that has nothing to do with the subject. Or if I post any articles, patches, collaborations etc. etc. to highlight what I have said, the thread's original post will get lost in a sea of misunderstandings.
But I will say this, I drew reference to which other groups was Maxis planning on celebrating every year (been a lot more often than that with items and patches etc.) to shine a light on how little any other group or type of gamer (those who don't play Simselves) are receiving in special patches, or celebrations and or content and or collaborations and or any thing at all. It's not just been a patch or celebration once a year, the game has slowly become the Simself game and mainly not any other type of people or play styles.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
@Cinebar I absolutely get what you're saying. The focus on being able to make yourself is a lot. There are too many people and too many differences. It may not even be possible for the devs to reach that target where EVERYONE is able to make themselves.
The problem lies with the direction they've taken. The universe is no longer a 50ies American sitcom with aliens and cowplants. It's now: real people across the whole world. The scope has gotten too big. You can't have the whole world in a single game. Not even if that game runs for a hundred years. They're still going to miss something.
That said, at the very least the things they do include shouldn't be insulting. I'm glad things like the cauliflower hair are finally getting fixed.
They're making too big a deal out of it. It was cool and thoughtful how sims in the first game didn't give a rat's behind about gender and just loved (and fought) each other freely. It felt natural, nothing about it seemed forced. These days there's a whole parade going on about how inclusive they are, but imo, it's a step back.
It used to be normal, sims can be gay and people can be too. The way it should be. You don't need to TELL EVERYONE ABOUT IT. It shouldn't have to be some kind of special thing. It just needs to be normal, and they already had that.
The irony of it all is that with all the LGBTQ+ updates, the game isn't just letting you be gay anymore. It's telling you how to be gay. With pride flags and shirts.
Exactly this. It's exactly like some books I read with lgbtq characters. It kinda disturbed me because it felt like I was reading a "gay" book with a bit of story that had to constantly announce how gay/different/special they were. Just to make sure I never forgot it.
But what I actually was hoping for when I read them was a "story" book with gay characters that shows their everyday "normal" life. Their hopes and dreams, aspirations and life struggles just like normal people have.
I feel like that's the best way to be accepted and normalized is just to go about it well... normally🙆♀️
And I agree that the older sims did that well. No one had to make a spectacle about it.
But I guess you can say that about everything in 2021😆😆😆
I understand that and those books bother me too. But my problem is that it is currently impossible to make characters that go by they/them pronouns. Having the option is not "making a spectacle about it."
Let's hope they don't make a spectacle out of it. But this should be a choice for the player in CAS. It's just as important for those who did trans still be called he or she if that is their preference. Or if the biological gender players still want to be called he or she. But I fear Maxis will make a big hoopla about it all (when they finish it) and have a big announcement and pat themselves on the back. It's almost distasteful to keep using the community as a trumpet for Maxis. Ka-ching.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
@Cinebar I absolutely get what you're saying. The focus on being able to make yourself is a lot. There are too many people and too many differences. It may not even be possible for the devs to reach that target where EVERYONE is able to make themselves.
The problem lies with the direction they've taken. The universe is no longer a 50ies American sitcom with aliens and cowplants. It's now: real people across the whole world. The scope has gotten too big. You can't have the whole world in a single game. Not even if that game runs for a hundred years. They're still going to miss something.
That said, at the very least the things they do include shouldn't be insulting. I'm glad things like the cauliflower hair are finally getting fixed.
Yes, the hair was horrible. But lately it seems we can't get past one article and or update without some new announcement about representation. Do you remember The Sims ? We just played and never thought about stuff like we have to think about now. We were never asked in zillion threads, how many gays, or trans or other races we played. It was oh, heck, my Sim is on fire! lol, how do I put that out! That's game play.
We never looked to see or count if there was a trans or black Sim in a trailer. It was just omg, it's the Sims! look at that crazy Sim, what are they doing? omg, they farted! Now, it's all about are you represented in The Sims? How does that representation make you feel? But if we are going to stay on this road then the game is failing to represent any one other than the things they brag about.
Why do people love the older games? Because there is no such requirements to meet those expectations. We could always create gay Sims, we could always play many diverse nations of peoples. We were not required by other players to state whether our game had a diverse population or not...we were the masters of our own Sims destinies and no one ran around saying how diverse they were and trying to prove it with pictures. It was just always omg my Sim is a pain, and or my Sim is hilarious and or my Sim is driving me crazy, and or my Sim is not smart and or my Sim just did this or that. That is why people play and love the older games, because representation was not the focus.
"Games Are Not The Place To Tell Stories, Games Are Meant To Let People Tell Their Own Stories"...Will Wright.
I am beginning to agree with the OP, particularly after the way the Pancakes were made fun of in the latest trailer and look at Judith from Get Famous and the Landgraabs who aren't sympathetic characters at all.
@Cinebar I absolutely get what you're saying. The focus on being able to make yourself is a lot. There are too many people and too many differences. It may not even be possible for the devs to reach that target where EVERYONE is able to make themselves.
The problem lies with the direction they've taken. The universe is no longer a 50ies American sitcom with aliens and cowplants. It's now: real people across the whole world. The scope has gotten too big. You can't have the whole world in a single game. Not even if that game runs for a hundred years. They're still going to miss something.
That said, at the very least the things they do include shouldn't be insulting. I'm glad things like the cauliflower hair are finally getting fixed.
Yes, the hair was horrible. But lately it seems we can't get past one article and or update without some new announcement about representation. Do you remember The Sims ? We just played and never thought about stuff like we have to think about now. We were never asked in zillion threads, how many gays, or trans or other races we played. It was oh, heck, my Sim is on fire! lol, how do I put that out! That's game play.
We never looked to see or count if there was a trans or black Sim in a trailer. It was just omg, it's the Sims! look at that crazy Sim, what are they doing? omg, they farted! Now, it's all about are you represented in The Sims? How does that representation make you feel? But if we are going to stay on this road then the game is failing to represent any one other than the things they brag about.
Why do people love the older games? Because there is no such requirements to meet those expectations. We could always create gay Sims, we could always play many diverse nations of peoples. We were not required by other players to state whether our game had a diverse population or not...we were the masters of our own Sims destinies and no one ran around saying how diverse they were and trying to prove it with pictures. It was just always omg my Sim is a pain, and or my Sim is hilarious and or my Sim is driving me crazy, and or my Sim is not smart and or my Sim just did this or that. That is why people play and love the older games, because representation was not the focus.
This exactly. Between the pc culture/nerfing and over representation I don't know what this is turning into. Though sadly it's not just the sims. I think EA feels like they "need" to do this just to keep up with what's popular in 2021 and I can't blame them entirely because people will trash them for it like around the time some political stuff blew up I saw tons of simmers tweeting at the sims how horrible they are for not speaking out about it until they finally did.
And I'm thinking to myself you guys know this is a VIDEO GAME right?👀
Sadly I feel people have pushed them here little by little and it's not much I can say because nothing we say will turn it back into the old sims. Everything is race and gender driven in 2021. I don't understand it myself🤷♀️
I played games ever since I was a child (mainly Japanese) and never once saw anyone who looked or resembled me in any shape, form, color, religion, culture or race. And I didn't think twice or even once about it. I had a blast and loved the heck out of those fun games. Became so engaged in the characters and their stories🤣🤣
It's what made me fall in love with story telling in the form of games. And ultimately the sims!!
Please correct me if I'm wrong @Cinebar, but I take it that you view that there's too much focus on CAS? And how resources are used to make the game all about making digital people that can represent real ones instead of a focus on traditional gameplay?
Representation is not inherently bad IMO. They (collectively, everyone who does it) are doing it to help people normalize the perspective that there are other people sharing this world with them. And that those people have different races, cultures, beliefs, values, priorities, etc. from what they have and that it's okay. I think the fact that we're still counting representation in media is kind of tokenistic? Coz when something's normal, it doesn't bat our eyelid anymore. But the thing is it's not yet normal. We're still in that stage where we're still trying.
Relatedly, I mentioned this in another post, but frankly, I think we older Simmers have to acknowledge that the younger generations have different playstyles from us. Whereas we value our Sim's experience and don't care what pixels look like so long as they did their job, the younger Simmers place greater value on how Sims look and where they live in. Perhaps, like me, you think the game has dumbed down. It's not fun anymore coz everything is offensive and triggering. Like it has become this empty but admittedly very pretty dress-up game. But maybe, that's just how modern gamers play? Maybe their values and priorities are just more about safe spaces and being seen? Or maybe some of them are more traditional like us? The thing is the game will adjust to whatever is most relevant during its run. 'Coz relevance=more players=income. It's business.
I think it's better and less stressful to realize that The Sims 4 is not the same game we fell in love with anymore. Not with its thousand DLC's, not in this culture, not with this generation, and definitely not in this economy. There are a lot of factors but simply put, it's not marketed toward us anymore. It's for a different demographic. Which is why we're not enjoying it much. But who knows? Maybe when all the dust has settled, maybe the Sims team and the new player base will find ways to make it fun for both them and the nostalgia players. But for now, I wouldn't stress about it anymore. I'd let others enjoy this game in a way where they can have fun (not in the ideals I hold it against) just as I once had fun playing that only-four-colors-skintone game when I was younger. But that's just me.
Comments
It's not about "who". At least that is what I think. It's about represented as a whole when it comes to creating Sims. It bothers me that the game is becoming political - as in American politics. I'm not ashamed to say that my skin color and hair color is not all that well represented, and what someone else said, male sims. I like that they add clothing and furniture styles from different part of the world but creating a perfect copy of yourself - is it necessary for the game to be good? I much rather they spend time and effort on the game play itself rather than trying to be politically correct.
Edited to clarify: flags, pronoun, skin tones - it's all a bundle trying to represent instead of focusing on gameplay.
Yeah I wish they stuff for other events.But maybe its not the patches.But maybe Ea should not make it a big deal
I feel like a culture that does not get represented the mid west, or the south.
Exactly this. It's exactly like some books I read with lgbtq characters. It kinda disturbed me because it felt like I was reading a "gay" book with a bit of story that had to constantly announce how gay/different/special they were. Just to make sure I never forgot it.
But what I actually was hoping for when I read them was a "story" book with gay characters that shows their everyday "normal" life. Their hopes and dreams, aspirations and life struggles just like normal people have.
I feel like that's the best way to be accepted and normalized is just to go about it well... normally🙆♀️
And I agree that the older sims did that well. No one had to make a spectacle about it.
But I guess you can say that about everything in 2021😆😆😆
I understand that and those books bother me too. But my problem is that it is currently impossible to make characters that go by they/them pronouns. Having the option is not "making a spectacle about it."
exactly! one of my favorite games is a shooter where the characters are 9 men. did i need to see myself on the game to like it? no, because what attracted me to play was the gameplay. so much for inclusion on the sims 4 yet it's all set dressing, you can make the prettiest sim but what's it for, if there's barely stuff to do on the game. the actual group being left out are the long time sims players. it's hard to get sims 1 & sims 2, and sims 4 wants to be everything except similar to past games, and don't get me started on the sims 5.
It sad how this becoming more common.Characters can't be characters they have to be mascot.Instead of hey its just happen to be this way.
I don't understand why they are focusing on adding pronouns (text in-game) that will take a lot of time and money when they could be focusing on more important things like improving already released packs or adding more gameplay features (babies, cars, etc.) and more settings options (lifespan, occult controls, etc.). The Sims 4 is a game that lacks a lot of gameplay and just changing the displayed text won't improve much.
THIS.
@manannan Thanks for the reply! Interesting to read your opinion on the matter. Sorry for waffling, I wanted to make my reply sound as polite as possible.
OP says, 'What other groups are you promoting?' so I am guessing it's likely to be about the 'who'. The thing is, a lot of people have said to me personally that they feel excluded because of people like me, but they don't explain what changes they would like to see, specifically, or what groups they'd like to see more rep for.
I personally disagree; I do not see how a couple of optional Pride T-shirts, optional LGBT+ Sims and optional and Pride Flags is 'becoming political', IMO. If people don't want LGBT+ Sims, then they can choose not to play them, they can choose not to use the flags or the T-shirts as well if they want. The LGBT+ Sims and content are entirely optional; the power is in the hands of the player, to choose what kind of Sims they do and don't play as in their save file. Unfortunately, the trouble with people wanting games to be less 'politically correct', is that what is considered 'too much' representation is going to be very different from player to player. Even the smallest, most optional addition might be 'too much' for somebody.
I don't ever make Sims who are like me- I already have to put up with myself all the time and that's bad enough, I don't want me in the game I play to relax! : P Joking aside I know some people do, and it's good that progress has been made in allowing people from different backgrounds to make Sims like themselves. Aside from Sim-selves, not everyone wants to make a 'perfect copy of themselves', some just want to make Sims who share their experience somehow. It can feel validating and refreshing to some people. As a side point, I personally don't think there's any such thing as too much representation, especially for a sandbox game. The whole idea of sandbox games is the choice, the (comparative to other game types) creativity and the breadth of things to do and make, so it makes sense that creators of such a game would do their part to include as many different experiences as possible.
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with me. I will say no more on the matter since I've summed up my outlook on the overall matter entirely, but I really appreciate your response and sharing your ideas.
The problem is on the side of the developers, I am also "one of your kind" as you could say but it's funny to me how you can have (in the future, they're working on it) different pronouns and wear t-shirts with flags but at the same time be an object as a baby. I want a live simulator, not a human creator or building simulator.
This is why it's so difficult to talk about this. In game development they always have to take decisions to decide what they will spend their time working on. And because it's about representation it's really difficult to say to the community that "the game was not built for it" because people will just see that as Maxis not caring about certain types of people.
So now Maxis are probably thinking how they are going to be able to add pronouns when the game was built from the ground up to not have it so they have to spend who knows how many days, weeks, months changing their lines of code instead of them working on something else.
In my opinion, it's not worth it if it's going to require a lot of work. If they could find a way to streamline the process, then maybe. I don't think people asking for pronouns are realizing what a huge undertaking it is if it would be done manually.
At this point all I'm asking for is them in TS5. No matter how much I want something doesn't change the fact that it would be difficult and EA doesn't pay the bills for "difficult". With TS4 it's just another thing on the list of "working on it" but I still have hope for the next game.
Disagreeing is fine. I don't know if you saw my previous post. Adding real life flags is trying to be politically correct in my opinion. There has never been anything "real life" included in the Sims before. Had they been flags that insinuated pride flags it would have been a different matter.
What is next when it comes to representation? Religion? ...and then one religion gets overlooked?
With a new game it should be possible.
I would like for you to be able to have They/Them to the sims4, but the more I think of it, the more I'm starting to realize that so much in the game is built around He/She, when a baby is being born, the game says "It's a boy!" or "It's a girl!" How does generating outfits work? How does relationships work? Is it okay to have a boyfriend or a girlfriend?
The list of things that needs to be configured is starting to get really long... we are not talking about a small patch anymore, this is starting to sound like a huge base game update.
I have to agree with this. I play a wide variety of games and very few I’m represented in and I don’t care. And when I make characters in games like Skyrim or Animal crossing, it’s not a representation of myself. I do understand that lots of people now make sim selves and it’s important to them and that’s fine.
I have a severe life limiting health condition. I see people all the time ask for it or things like it to be in the game and the day it happens is the day I will uninstall the game. I play games to escape my health. The idea of people using my illness or any disability for an entertaining story makes me feel a little sick. But I know disabilities are also highly requested and for those that have disabilities that’s their right as it’s mine to not want it.
I have played The Sims since the original. Back then sims could have same sex relationships and marriages, if anything it was very ahead of its time. The devs didn’t make a huge song and dance about it. Now in every trailer for a pack you can bet there’s an LGBTQ sim in the trailer. And before anyone comes for me, I’m not against that, I just don’t like EA screaming from the rooftops (as they did with the gender update) about how inclusive they were/are. I mean congratulations EA for doing something you have always done but now you want massive pats on the back for it. Other games with a character creation don’t sell their games on “look how inclusive we are” the game is sold on the game play because from an entertainment and longevity perspective thats what is going to engage the player.
The sims for me is becoming less and less of a game and more of a propaganda machine. For example when they had the advert (which purposely excluded any sims fan over 25) talking about what the game meant to them, the advert spoke about playing with life over a montage of various simmers discussing how the game helped them with personal issues. Not one piece of in game footage was actually shown. The CM said about a year ago that the game is a safe space where we can all learn and grow. And that to me Isn’t the sims at its heart. I don’t play a video game to learn and to grow. The sims has always been my safe space where life happened. Sometimes bad things happened, consequences. It wasn’t unicorn land where everyone adored each other. It was a life sim.
Plenty of us aren't into the flag-waving pride culture. I don't need or want everyone's attention on my sexuality. For me, that's the opposite of normalization.
Would the representation of such folks in trailers and the 'mo choice' update count?
What seems to be under/not represented adequately:
elderly
disabled
native peoples of North & South America (including Eskimos) Australia & New Zealand
southern & central Europe
As has been pointed out in anther thread, EA 'inclusiveness' seems driven more by revenue/market response than an internal moral compass. How many Eskimos or Haida Indians play the Sims, any version?
This isn't about which groups though true only a few holidays of other cultures got any special attention from Maxis celebrating Hispanic culture, a few times, but this thread really isn't about which groups but how one form of gameplay (Simself/ representation) has become the (entire focus?) game...rather than a game being a game of gameplay. It is now the form of acceptable gameplay type, rather than a diverse world of many types of players. But if I even go into to that to explain some things the original post will get lost in a meaning that has nothing to do with the subject. Or if I post any articles, patches, collaborations etc. etc. to highlight what I have said, the thread's original post will get lost in a sea of misunderstandings.
But I will say this, I drew reference to which other groups was Maxis planning on celebrating every year (been a lot more often than that with items and patches etc.) to shine a light on how little any other group or type of gamer (those who don't play Simselves) are receiving in special patches, or celebrations and or content and or collaborations and or any thing at all. It's not just been a patch or celebration once a year, the game has slowly become the Simself game and mainly not any other type of people or play styles.
The problem lies with the direction they've taken. The universe is no longer a 50ies American sitcom with aliens and cowplants. It's now: real people across the whole world. The scope has gotten too big. You can't have the whole world in a single game. Not even if that game runs for a hundred years. They're still going to miss something.
That said, at the very least the things they do include shouldn't be insulting. I'm glad things like the cauliflower hair are finally getting fixed.
Let's hope they don't make a spectacle out of it. But this should be a choice for the player in CAS. It's just as important for those who did trans still be called he or she if that is their preference. Or if the biological gender players still want to be called he or she. But I fear Maxis will make a big hoopla about it all (when they finish it) and have a big announcement and pat themselves on the back. It's almost distasteful to keep using the community as a trumpet for Maxis. Ka-ching.
Yes, the hair was horrible. But lately it seems we can't get past one article and or update without some new announcement about representation. Do you remember The Sims ? We just played and never thought about stuff like we have to think about now. We were never asked in zillion threads, how many gays, or trans or other races we played. It was oh, heck, my Sim is on fire! lol, how do I put that out! That's game play.
We never looked to see or count if there was a trans or black Sim in a trailer. It was just omg, it's the Sims! look at that crazy Sim, what are they doing? omg, they farted! Now, it's all about are you represented in The Sims? How does that representation make you feel? But if we are going to stay on this road then the game is failing to represent any one other than the things they brag about.
Why do people love the older games? Because there is no such requirements to meet those expectations. We could always create gay Sims, we could always play many diverse nations of peoples. We were not required by other players to state whether our game had a diverse population or not...we were the masters of our own Sims destinies and no one ran around saying how diverse they were and trying to prove it with pictures. It was just always omg my Sim is a pain, and or my Sim is hilarious and or my Sim is driving me crazy, and or my Sim is not smart and or my Sim just did this or that. That is why people play and love the older games, because representation was not the focus.
This exactly. Between the pc culture/nerfing and over representation I don't know what this is turning into. Though sadly it's not just the sims. I think EA feels like they "need" to do this just to keep up with what's popular in 2021 and I can't blame them entirely because people will trash them for it like around the time some political stuff blew up I saw tons of simmers tweeting at the sims how horrible they are for not speaking out about it until they finally did.
And I'm thinking to myself you guys know this is a VIDEO GAME right?👀
Sadly I feel people have pushed them here little by little and it's not much I can say because nothing we say will turn it back into the old sims. Everything is race and gender driven in 2021. I don't understand it myself🤷♀️
I played games ever since I was a child (mainly Japanese) and never once saw anyone who looked or resembled me in any shape, form, color, religion, culture or race. And I didn't think twice or even once about it. I had a blast and loved the heck out of those fun games. Became so engaged in the characters and their stories🤣🤣
It's what made me fall in love with story telling in the form of games. And ultimately the sims!!
Representation is not inherently bad IMO. They (collectively, everyone who does it) are doing it to help people normalize the perspective that there are other people sharing this world with them. And that those people have different races, cultures, beliefs, values, priorities, etc. from what they have and that it's okay. I think the fact that we're still counting representation in media is kind of tokenistic? Coz when something's normal, it doesn't bat our eyelid anymore. But the thing is it's not yet normal. We're still in that stage where we're still trying.
Relatedly, I mentioned this in another post, but frankly, I think we older Simmers have to acknowledge that the younger generations have different playstyles from us. Whereas we value our Sim's experience and don't care what pixels look like so long as they did their job, the younger Simmers place greater value on how Sims look and where they live in. Perhaps, like me, you think the game has dumbed down. It's not fun anymore coz everything is offensive and triggering. Like it has become this empty but admittedly very pretty dress-up game. But maybe, that's just how modern gamers play? Maybe their values and priorities are just more about safe spaces and being seen? Or maybe some of them are more traditional like us? The thing is the game will adjust to whatever is most relevant during its run. 'Coz relevance=more players=income. It's business.
I think it's better and less stressful to realize that The Sims 4 is not the same game we fell in love with anymore. Not with its thousand DLC's, not in this culture, not with this generation, and definitely not in this economy. There are a lot of factors but simply put, it's not marketed toward us anymore. It's for a different demographic. Which is why we're not enjoying it much. But who knows? Maybe when all the dust has settled, maybe the Sims team and the new player base will find ways to make it fun for both them and the nostalgia players. But for now, I wouldn't stress about it anymore. I'd let others enjoy this game in a way where they can have fun (not in the ideals I hold it against) just as I once had fun playing that only-four-colors-skintone game when I was younger. But that's just me.