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Sylvan Glade Tea Party

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  • ThePlumbobThePlumbob Posts: 4,971 Member
    edited September 2020
    @_sims_Yimi

    Yeah technically there's nothing stopping you from going back and editing, but that wouldn't really be fair on people who are reading along. Plus one of the cool things about reading simlit is that you get to watch the writer evolve! :)
    _sims_Yimi wrote: »
    I do sometimes struggle with altering ideas based on how I think my audience might interpret it. It’s often concepts that I was very enthusiastic about when initially thinking of it. But if it doesn’t fit, or I think it may upset readers, then I have a tendency of either toning it down or outright removing it.
    I actually came very close to doing that with Morgana’s kid chapters. They’re one of the darkest parts of the story, and I remember being very worried about whether or not I’d overdone it. In hindsight, I’m actually glad I didn’t “kill” the idea and went with what I wanted to do instead.
    I completely get that!
    I'm glad you left it as was, it was a dark chapter, but probably one of my favourites! I think sometimes if you write the story with something in mind but then decide to soften it, you might end up "cheating" the readers - possibly not as much for this instance, because we don't really know where Morgana's journey will head, but we do know those events have made a significant impact on her.

    I totally get it though, because I considered toning down some of the character backstories for the same reason.
    Like the parts of Micah and Morgyn's backstories that we have seen. I was uhming and ahing about whether to "soften" them for ages, but decided not to, because they are too important to why they are the way they are, and if I toned them down, their actions would make the characters make less sense. Which is what I mean by "cheating" the reader.
    Like Morgyn, hm? xD But yeah, I get what you mean. Maybe it’s a bit less relevant in simlit than in an actual novel =) I came across an article about it today and was wondering what kind of thoughts you guys had about it. :mrgreen:
    I've said it before, but I do find Morgyn relatable. Shock horror :D It's not something I would be admiting to if it wasn't true :p Now please don't send your 4,862 gnomes my way instead, yeah? :D

    I think it's still relevant! But possibly harder to do because you don't have that final outcome in front of you yet. Then again, it is nice that we get a bit more freedom. It's definitely interesting to know what people might cut or change and why.

    Have you thought about releasing any of the elements you've cut that don't quite fit as standalone short stories that supplement the story but are their own thing? Like little extra bonus chapters of sorts? Because I'd totally read that! :) (Obviously I mean things that just got cut altogether, not things that have been altered. As much as AU Camelot could be interesting in its own way :D )
  • mercuryfoammercuryfoam Posts: 1,156 Member
    edited September 2020
    I love how you guys have an endless stream of though-provoking questions. I’ve not heard of this term until you introduced it. I’ll attempt some form of an answer that hopefully makes sense.

    What do you think about this advice? (Killing your darlings. KYD)
    Generally speaking, I don't really do this. Kind of. I do try to make sure that everything I include does either move the plot, develop the characters or build on lore, though you can justify most things with one of the three, and sometimes I do fail on that front anyway - which is mostly to do with simlit being a "live" process. By which I mean, if this was a book, once I got to the end I probably would go and cut some of the bits to tidy it up a little, but since I don't fully know what the end will look like yet, that's not really possible. (I doubt the season 1 ending I have in mind will change at this point, but the way I get to it might differ slightly from what I thought at the start, for instance). ~ @ThePlumbob

    Wholeheartedly agree. I try to make sure that every obscure line in my story highlights something useful to the readers. Personally I think SimLit has more wiggle room than books because as pointed, it’s a live process with back and forth communication with readers. So getting to the end of the story may not necessarily be the main focus all the time. Injecting lighthearted fun, behind the scenes, or random lore, which may or may not add to the story (like zombie Sandy) is imo awesome moments that would’ve not existed if KYD were stubbornly practiced, which would be such a shame. :lol:

    Personally, I’m doing a tiny experimental pushback of my own in regards to KYD for S2. I’ve mentioned that I wanted to be more descriptive in my writing this time around, so I’m adding bits and pieces of info which I think are nice-to-knows and not particularly essential to the story plot or characters, or any front. I don’t see them as fillers or extra weight. But to some they’d probably see them as such. I plan for when my reading circle finally catches up to S2, I’d ask readers what they think of the changes. (Maybe they won’t detect a difference even. :sweat_smile: )

    That’s for tiny details, for whole chapters:

    Have you used the concept of “killing your darlings” in your writing before? If so, what did you remove (if you can answer that without spoilers)?

    I’ve always felt guilty about killing Kian’s entire arc. His arc wasn’t the only one that was removed. Clarissa (Athena’s childhood bully), Athena fitting into her new school, finding her social position among Kian’s friends; Athena, Kaitlyn and Maia’s adventures; the sociopolitical play between Kian + his friends amongst themselves and the wider community (hence involving Masato and Curtis); Curtis, Athena and Grim’s street arc (This part is a super darling. :cry: I really wanted to include this). And more.

    One reason to why I KYD-ed so much of the story is because I evaluated the ‘impact’ of those chapters towards the main plot. Do they add, compliment, enhance or distract? Can I achieve a similar result via a different route? And how necessary was it that these side characters get elaborated on?

    It's also partly because of my obsession with chapter numbers but lets not go there *cough*

    Though I never got round to featuring these story parts, they’re not killed in my head. The effects/results of these ‘not-shown’ chapters will shape the climate in S2 or affect certain characters directly. The only difference is that they will be perceived as new development but for me, they’re a direct consequence of a series of events in the past.
    I do leave a lot of things on the cutting room floor, although as you say most of it is because of story flow and moving the plot along. I do sometimes struggle with altering ideas based on how I think my audience might interpret it. It’s often concepts that I was very enthusiastic about when initially thinking of it. But if it doesn’t fit, or I think it may upset readers, then I have a tendency of either toning it down or outright removing it. ~_sims_Yimi

    I’m expecting to discard a lot of lore/chapters/arcs along the way in S2 too! Though there’s quite a lot that I’m adamant to include this time. One of the justifications for KYD is so the story doesn’t get convoluted and that it’s best to have one or two strong ideas than a handful of weak ones, right? I agree with it, but I’ll cross that bridge once I get to it. In the mean time, my head (since I am lousy with note taking) is swimming with so many adventures for each side character it’s mad. I might create an alternate section and call it “Extra” or something and plop all these side stories so they stop nagging at me. But for the moment, I’m feeling slightly experimental. I have somewhat of an idea to implement them all so I’ll see if it works. xD

    I think I’ve told you how I outrightly removed a sub-chapter in Ch.3 of Season 1 and have beaten myself up since. (That chapter is STILL sitting in my drafts) :bawling: So I’m not a huge proponent to killing off chapters that you feel passionate for. Me thinking of Athena, Curtis and Grim’s street adventures still gets to me. I’m glad you kept May day. It’s a cornerstone to Morgana’s character development. Dark as it was, it made me sympathise with her.Without an event as strong as May Day, I might not understand why she turned out the way she did, and may detest her character instead. (If you want that effect that’s fine too.)
  • lone_catlone_cat Posts: 417 Member
    @mercuryfoam
    I think I’ve told you how I outrightly removed a sub-chapter in Ch.3 of Season 1 and have beaten myself up since. (That chapter is STILL sitting in my drafts) :bawling: So I’m not a huge proponent to killing off chapters that you feel passionate for. Me thinking of Athena, Curtis and Grim’s street adventures still gets to me.

    Now I'm really curious about this, and maybe you could do a bonus content section and include this chapter. Or even do a spin-off story once the main story is concluded. Totally just a suggestion and don't feel pressured to include extra stuff if you don't want. :)

    What do you think about this advice? Have you used the concept of “killing your darlings” in your writing before? If so, what did you remove (if you can answer that without spoilers)?

    I have heard about this idea before, and I agree, that it probably applies more to books. A book is already written and then edited by an outside party, and books usually have beta readers, who will read the book, and give advice to the author before the book is published. So I can see why the concept applies to authors of books, and maybe not so much to simlit.

    With that said, I do kill my darlings. I think it's easier for me to do because I already have most of my story written up in a rough draft form, so I already know the scenes in my chapters and the ending. As long as what I'm cutting doesn't completely mess up my ending, I will cut things if I think it's necessary. I'll try to make my example as non-spoilery as I can. In my current story, I had a scene that I really liked, but I took it out because it wasn't relevant to the plot anymore. In the scene, Ian gets kidnapped by a mermaid, Hailey and Barnes find him while the mermaid is putting kelp on him and flirting with him and he's all awkward about it, then Hailey and Barnes end up rescuing him. I cut it out because it wasn't going with the tone or direction my story was taking. I won't say much more about the scene other than it doesn't happen. But if you have read or read further, you will see why this scene should have been cut. At least I hope it makes sense, and I'm not just taking a machete and hacking my story to bits while wearing a creepy hockey mask. Sorry, all day I've been throwing out old pop culture references, lol. I have other scenes I've cut, but those are a little too spoilery, and they were just minor scenes that got replaced with something else. I've cut a lot and rewritten quite a bit of what I originally wrote in story 2. I didn't do that so much with my first story. There is also one character that is fairly new that I added in and that character had a whole different storyline and fate that I cut and changed. Not going to spoil who. :) The only things that are pretty set in stone are my character backstories, the crime, the villain and their motivation. And I always save what I've taken out because sometimes I can rework a scene or piece of dialogue into a future chapter or story.

    Sort of going off of this topic, I was watching something the other day that was talking about TV show writers who will cut future content from a story just because viewers predicted what would happen. I don't really agree with this. I wouldn't cut something just because one of my readers predicted a future outcome. Sometimes I think it is more satisfying for the reader to predict something and be right than to be completely blindsided all the time. And if you've already done the work of foreshadowing then it's sort of a waste of content to change what happens. But I'm a big fan of foreshadowing, and this doesn't always work in every story. I sort of went on a rant there but feel free to agree or disagree with what I said.

    @_sims_Yimi
    And I completely agree with everyone, and I'm glad you kept the May Day chapter. :) It was a very poignant chapter, and it really influences who Morgana becomes as a character.
  • ThePlumbobThePlumbob Posts: 4,971 Member
    edited September 2020
    @lone_cat
    lone_cat wrote: »
    Sort of going off of this topic, I was watching something the other day that was talking about TV show writers who will cut future content from a story just because viewers predicted what would happen. I don't really agree with this. I wouldn't cut something just because one of my readers predicted a future outcome. Sometimes I think it is more satisfying for the reader to predict something and be right than to be completely blindsided all the time. And if you've already done the work of foreshadowing then it's sort of a waste of content to change what happens. But I'm a big fan of foreshadowing, and this doesn't always work in every story. I sort of went on a rant there but feel free to agree or disagree with what I said.

    I absolutely agree with you! I don't see any good reason to do that, it would just wreck the story. What would be the point of foreshadowing and leaving hints if you were to do a U-turn? I think media these days are generally obsessed with the shock value, and place a higher importance on that than, you know, a meaningful plot and character development. But if you change things up just for the sake of changing it, you'll not end up with a cohesive story. Plus, for people like us who just write for enjoyment rather than anything else, it would mean not even writing the story you're wanting to write.

    And I definitely agree that it is often more satisfying to unravel stuff from clues rather than be shocked just for the shock-value and left scratching your head about how on earth the story got there. It's nice for the pieces of the puzzle to fit in one by one, and go "ah yeah, i can see how it fits". Don't get me wrong, I like a good twist as much as the next person, but it needs to make sense.

    (Westworld is such a good example of this. The first season was brilliant, it had twists and turns but it was all pre-planned and when you got to the end, you got an aha moment, with some satisfaction of maybe working some of it out, and some of it being a surprise. The second season was a hot mess that felt like them trying to make a caricature of their own format. And I think that was one of the shows where they made changes in S2 just because people predicted it on reddit, which is just stupid. Tangent over.)

    Also, if you write a story and none of your readers can get anything in their speculation right at all, you might want to have a think about whether you're even conveying the message :D
  • lone_catlone_cat Posts: 417 Member
    @ThePlumbob
    (Westworld is such a good example of this. The first season was brilliant, it had twists and turns but it was all pre-planned and when you got to the end, you got an aha moment, with some satisfaction of maybe working some of it out, and some of it being a surprise. The second season was a hot mess that felt like them trying to make a caricature of their own format. And I think that was one of the shows where they made changes in S2 just because people predicted it on reddit, which is just stupid. Tangent over.)

    Haha, yes you're right, that was in reference to Westworld, even though I don't know what they cut. I loved the first season too! It had some great plot twists that made sense, and I really liked all the characters. The second season was all over the place and I can't even say I remember most of it because it jumped around so much. Anyway, I'll try not to derail the discussion further. :)

  • SnuffyBucketSnuffyBucket Posts: 543 Member
    edited September 2020
    Wow, how am I so late to the party?

    What do you think about this advice? Have you used the concept of “killing your darlings” in your writing before? If so, what did you remove (if you can answer that without spoilers)?

    Never heard of it, but now I know what it is, for sure I have done this. Loads of AE has ended up the metaphorical bin as it felt superfluous. Today's chapter started with over 5000 words, as an example. I cut out some bits I really liked and it now has 1000 words, can be read in one go and is just as depressing. Job done.

    @ThePlumbob
    Also, if you write a story and none of your readers can get anything in their speculation right at all, you might want to have a think about whether you're even conveying the message
    Is this a dig at me? ;) 'Cause I reckon only about 80% of the speculation on AE is completely wrong, the other 20% is so scarily right that I had to check I hadn't accidentally posted my notes online, so the clues are there. :D
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    Almost Eternal
  • ThePlumbobThePlumbob Posts: 4,971 Member
    edited October 2020
    Hey everyone, it's been a while, but I have a discussion topic - kind of:

    POV and Person - First, close third or distant third

    You guys know that I mostly write in close third person, but like to throw in a random first person every so often to really allow me to get into their heads. But then I don't do them very often for that precise reason, because if we always saw their thought so "close up," a lot of the mystery would be gone. I tend to throw in first person when I think it will add something needed that we wouldn't have with third (which is partly the reason why there's never been a Cordelia first person POV, we already know a lot about what she's thinking anyway so I don't feel like it would add much).

    Anyway, I know @lone_cat of course writes solely in first person from Hailey's POV and @_sims_Yimi always does a close third if I'm not mistaken. @SnuffyBucket has a similar approach to myself with mostly third but a couple of first person thrown in there for good measure, and B2W is mainly third person but if I'm not mistaken @mercuryfoam did do a couple of first person chapters in season one. So with that in mind, my questions are:
    • Why did you opt for the person (first/third/mixture) that you write your story in?
    • What do you think the main pros and cons of that approach are?
    • Are you ever tempted to switch it up?
    Somewhat related but not entirely - I guess this could be a topic of its own, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway:

    If you write from multiple people's POV, how do you decide who's perspective each chapter/segment is going to be from?
    (I guess the only person that this question does not apply to is @lone_cat, so my alternative question for you is; with Story 1 and 2 being entirely from Hailey's POV, have you considered changing to someone else in an upcoming "season"? I know you've mentioned potentially doing a more Ian focused story/mini-spinoff?)
  • SnuffyBucketSnuffyBucket Posts: 543 Member
    Why did you opt for the person (first/third/mixture) that you write your story in?
    Originally I was going to write from April's perspective, but quickly gave that up as it frustrated me, too limiting only knowing what she knows which let's be honest, isn't much. Then I thought I'd write from a mixture of first persons, but that annoyed me too, not enough mystery, like you say. So then it became close third with a sprinkle of firsts only as required (see below).

    What do you think the main pros and cons of that approach are?
    Pro: that there's always something I can be working on, no matter what my mood is. Am I feeling a bit vacant? Let's work on an April scene. Someone pipped me off? Faith's turn. Woke up feeling like I want to gleefully rip out some hearts? Clearly Melinda's turn. ;)

    This is the main con too. If my next scene that really needs writing is for a character I'm not in the mood for, massive mental block occurs. And there's one character I really, really struggle to get in the mood for.

    Are you ever tempted to switch it up?
    I'm always switching it up.

    If you write from multiple people's POV, how do you decide who's perspective each chapter/segment is going to be from?
    For my thirds it depends entirely on how much mystery I want to maintain. My first persons are easy; My Epitaph couldn't be anyone but April and Better Days had to be a first person from Lilith. She's not the kind to spew her story to others yet she holds some crucial info for readers so I thought I'd make a whole chapter out of it. My third and final first person POV chapter in part one is going to be fun/experimental/confusing as heck. :D I will be interested to hear all your thoughts on it, when it arrives, for sure.
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    Almost Eternal
  • ThePlumbobThePlumbob Posts: 4,971 Member
    edited October 2020
    @SnuffyBucket
    Originally I was going to write from April's perspective, but quickly gave that up as it frustrated me, too limiting only knowing what she knows which let's be honest, isn't much.
    Oh wow, hard to imagine AE only from April's POV! Would be an entirely different story it feels like. And I would probably feel a lot more annoyed reading it hahaha.

    Pro: that there's always something I can be working on, no matter what my mood is. Am I feeling a bit vacant? Let's work on an April scene. Someone pipped me off? Faith's turn. Woke up feeling like I want to gleefully rip out some hearts? Clearly Melinda's turn. ;)

    This is the main con too. If my next scene that really needs writing is for a character I'm not in the mood for, massive mental block occurs. And there's one character I really, really struggle to get in the mood for.
    That's really interesting! I mostly try to work on the story in order, though sometimes (ok, fairly often, let's face it) I do skip ahead and write a portion of something that's yet to come, but that's usually just because I'm excited about a particular scene or get a random burst of inspiration more so that feeling more "in sync" with a specific character. Never really thought of being like "feeling depressed - let's do a Micah chapter!" :D But that's probably because writing is generally my happy place and I kind of get drawn in and forget about what was going on with my day before I opened up Word :)

    My third and final first person POV chapter in part one is going to be fun/experimental/confusing as heck. :D
    I am so very curious about this!!!
  • _sims_Yimi_sims_Yimi Posts: 1,524 Member
    edited October 2020
    Ooh, here you go introducing a nice question again! :mrgreen:

    Why did you opt for the person (first/third/mixture) that you write your story in?
    This one is simple – because I don’t have a single main character in the story. There’s a lot of convoluted storylines interacting with each other, and to show it all from one person’s POV only would limit the story so much that readers might not understand what’s going on anymore. Imagine only ever seeing things from Gawain’s perspective, or only from Arthur’s or Morgana’s. You’d miss things, and I’m pretty sure you’d get sick of them at some point, haha.

    What do you think the main pros and cons of that approach are?
    Hmm… The biggest pro is that I get to tell a story from many different viewpoints, and can switch between characters as I please. Sick of Morgana? Let’s show Gawain. Or Arthur. Or Agravaine. Or Emrys. With that many people there’s always something happening, so I never run out of ideas.

    The biggest con, for me personally, is that I sometimes lose the forest for the trees. There’s too many ideas. I have so many characters that it gets overwhelming. And the list just keeps growing. And a chapter can only have so many things happening at once, so I often cut stuff out. Lionel had two extra scenes of him being a potato. Gawain has two little brothers that adore him. Sarah flirts with every knight that moves. Percival went on a date. Uther likes doing story teller voices. They all have fears and wants and desires and thoughts and it gets a little much sometimes. I can never get them all, no matter how much they bug me for more screentime. :sweat_smile:

    Are you ever tempted to switch it up?
    Sometimes, yeah. But I prefer 3rd person over 1st person, so I think I will stick with what comes naturally for me.

    If you write from multiple people's POV, how do you decide who's perspective each chapter/segment is going to be from?
    Whoever is most relevant to the scene, unless there are secrets happening that I don’t want you to know about yet. There’s a reason why you never hear certain people’s thoughts, even if it would make sense in the scene. If someone shows up a lot, but you never see their thoughts pop up, or all of a sudden the POV switches to someone else, then there’s something hidden there.
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  • lone_catlone_cat Posts: 417 Member
    Why did you opt for the person (first/third/mixture) that you write your story in?

    When I first started writing Supernatural Misadventures, I wrote it in third-person limited from Hailey's viewpoint. But as I wrote more, it just felt like it was too distant and it didn't feel right to me when I read it, so I changed it. I wanted Hailey to be my main character and also like my narrator. I like the idea of her telling the story as it unfolds and also interjecting some of her thoughts into it. I feel like first-person helps accomplish this. I also wanted to experiment with something a little different. I've written a couple of other stories (which are on hiatus) that are in third-person and I'm in the process of scrapping one of my other stories and turning it into something different and it will be third-person limited.

    What do you think the main pros and cons of that approach are?

    I think writing in first-person allows some more mystery in my story than if I wrote it in third-person. The reader gets to connect with my main character a little better than if I wrote it in third-person. I also like it because it's like the reader is right there with Hailey on her adventures and discovering clues as she finds them. Hailey is already an open person, so I had nothing really to hide from writing it in first-person. Her openness and honesty are also some of her flaws. She expects everyone else to be as open as her, so she overlooks things in people who aren't completely honest with her. I can hide character motivations this way because we are only seeing it the way Hailey sees it and she may miss things. I also have a lot going on behind the scenes and I don't want things revealed too quickly. If I was to include other viewpoints, like Ian's or Vern's, I would lose a lot of the mystery of what is going on. I also find first-person slightly easier for me to write in.

    Some cons I've noticed are that it is harder to write descriptions of what is going on in the surroundings. When I write in third-person, I find that I am much more descriptive with the scene unfolding or the actions of other characters, but in first-person, I have to keep in mind how Hailey would see the scene unfolding and how she would describe it. I also think that first-person can be a little jarring to the reader if they aren't used to it. At least when I first started reading books in first-person, I didn't like it as much as third-person. But as I've read more, I like both ways of writing. Another thing is that sometimes I feel like I have to finagle my plot a little more, like if I want something to be revealed I have to make sure Hailey sees it or finds out about it, and sometimes this takes some manipulation on my part because I can't just switch to another character POV. This is part of the reason I used a different POV for the epilogue, so readers got to see things that Hailey missed, or wouldn't have been revealed with just her viewpoint.

    Are you ever tempted to switch it up?

    Sometimes, but for the most part, I enjoy writing from first-person in this story. I do like writing from the villains POV for the epilogue. I plan to do that in my current story as well, just because I like revealing things to the reader that wouldn't be revealed from just Hailey's POV, but I also don't want to reveal too much too soon.

    Have you considered changing to someone else in an upcoming "season"? I know you've mentioned potentially doing a more Ian focused story/mini-spinoff?

    I am planning an Ian POV for a short interlude right after this current story. It will be third-person because I don't want to reveal everything Ian is thinking and still want him to be somewhat of a mystery. I also think it will help with describing what is going on better than if I did first-person.
  • ThePlumbobThePlumbob Posts: 4,971 Member
    edited October 2020
    @_sims_Yimi
    Lionel had two extra scenes of him being a potato. Gawain has two little brothers that adore him. Sarah flirts with every knight that moves. Percival went on a date. Uther likes doing story teller voices.

    I mean, Lionel already made a lasting impression with his single scene, and I dislike Percival so I won't cry over missing out on his date, but man, I would love to see Gawain and his little brothers, warms my heart just to think about that. And storyteller Uther. Sarah I think we kind of get that she acts that way with the knights from comments mentioned in passing, but then again, more Sarah would never be a good thing. I'll be quite happy with whatever trees you want to show us more of, even if it doesn't directly contribute to the "main" plotline.
    There’s a reason why you never hear certain people’s thoughts, even if it would make sense in the scene. If someone shows up a lot, but you never see their thoughts pop up, or all of a sudden the POV switches to someone else, then there’s something hidden there.
    Now I'm stuck pondering who's thoughts we haven't heard. Hmm.... I feel like we've heard a bit from everyone, so whoever it is, you're very good at hiding it :D

    @lone_cat

    Hailey definitely makes Supernatural Misadventures, it's so fun to get to unravel everything through her eyes!
    sometimes I feel like I have to finagle my plot a little more, like if I want something to be revealed I have to make sure Hailey sees it or finds out about it, and sometimes this takes some manipulation on my part because I can't just switch to another character POV.

    I was thinking this would probably be the trickiest thing about having a single POV character - if you want the reader to know something, your character must know it too. Which works perfectly for gradually uncovering a mystery, but it means she needs to eventually learn a lot - I would struggle with this because sometimes I like my characters being clueless too much :D That being said the way you handled Season 1 epiloge definitely worked, so clearly you've found a good workaround!
  • ThePlumbobThePlumbob Posts: 4,971 Member
    edited October 2020
    I guess I should answer my own questions!

    Why did you opt for the person (first/third/mixture) that you write your story in?
    While BC starts of heavily focused on Cordelia and her perspective, I always knew I would want to expand the viewpoints, and that I could never tell the whole story just from her perception (I mean, she's probably the character that knows the least out of everyone), so close third with switching POVs always seemed like the best fit. Bu I actually really love writing in first person, especially when a character's voice is very strong in my head, so I couldn't resist throwing in a few first person chapters. There will likely be more down the line, though I do always try to have a reason for using first person to show something we just wouldn't quite get in third person. I'm not sure if everyone will get a first person though, as some characters are definitely easier for me as a POV than others.

    What do you think the main pros and cons of that approach are?
    Given how fickle I am, I love having the freedom to switch it up. I like experimenting, so if I feel like exploring someone's take in first person, I will. Like chapter 25 and the introduction of Verena, I just had an urge to write that in first person, so I did - yay whims. I don't limit myself too strictly with format (in spite of what I said above), it's all good fun.

    Another pro is that the perspectives allow me to only reveal what I want the reader to know, like Yimi said - obviously there's a lot of mysteries going on and different characters might know different pieces of it all, so I can conveniently manoeuvre through that. I don't think any of my characters will ever know everything there is to know, but some definitely hold larger bits of the puzzle than others. I always thought it could be an interesting exercise to tell the story from somebody else's point of view, but it would definitely read a whole lot differently, and would probably not be all that interesting haha.

    Are you ever tempted to switch it up?
    All the time - which is why I do :D

    If you write from multiple people's POV, how do you decide who's perspective each chapter/segment is going to be from?
    I actually don't often decide up until last minute, so unless there's some crucial information I do or don't want the reader to know, it's largely on a whim :sweat_smile: Cordelia is my safe go to default, but I get bored of her that can get repetitive if we already know all her thoughts on the situation, so if I feel she has nothing new to add, I might reverse things, like I did with Dandy's Eden chapter or Morgyn's Demon chapter, because seeing those from Cordelia's POV would just be more of the same old.

    I'm sure my own personal preferences and who I connect with as a character does have a lot to do with who I choose too though - for instance it's not particularly easy for me to slip into Dandy's mindset, which is why we've had so little from him. Maybe some day.

  • ThePlumbobThePlumbob Posts: 4,971 Member
    edited October 2020
    Oh I completely forgot to list a con *facepalm* That's right, guys, my approach is perfect and has no flaws hahaha!

    I guess the biggest con is that with close third, a lot of what I write is the character's personal interpretation of the truth but can often be perceived as the absolute truth when read, whereas with first person character bias is more expected. I think that by now, it's probably much more obvious that they're all pretty unreliable narrators, but I know that at the beginning of the story that wasn't necessarily the case. So I suppose it might be misleading the reader a bit, especially when so many of my characters are not even particularly honest with themselves, let alone others. But... if I didn't enjoy misleading the reader to some degree, I probably wouldn't write it that way, so... Maybe I really can't think of a con after all o:)
  • ThePlumbobThePlumbob Posts: 4,971 Member
    Not a discussion topic really, but guys, have you seen the new expansion trailer? I'm really happy because it's a pack I actually want for once :D
  • _sims_Yimi_sims_Yimi Posts: 1,524 Member
    ...I'm living under a rock. What expansion trailer? :o
    J6AKQqX.jpg
  • ThePlumbobThePlumbob Posts: 4,971 Member
    @_sims_Yimi Here. It looks like a winter getaway pack, but in Japan :love:
  • lone_catlone_cat Posts: 417 Member
    @ThePlumbob
    Oh, I hadn't heard about this, but... yesss! This looks so cool! Now I'm really excited about this next pack! I've always wanted a winter getaway pack, so that in itself is awesome. But then they have this cool oriental-inspired world added on top of that. So much content in one pack (at least that's how it looks). It reminds me of Shang Simla from Sims 3 (which was my favorite of the destination worlds). Oh, and I wonder if we get to learn martial arts like in the Sims 3, that would also be awesome. Wow, okay, I think EA might be listening after everyone was angry about the Star Wars Pack. :)
  • ThePlumbobThePlumbob Posts: 4,971 Member
    @lone_cat I know, I really wanted winter sports and mountain getaways, and I really wanted an Asian-inspired getaway, so seeing those two things combined, I'm over the moon. I love that you can actually go mountain climbing and get all the way to a snowy summit. And Japanese-style onsens and restaurants! Would love martial arts too, but I agree that this actually does look packed with content even if it doesn't have that.

    The world looks really varied too, which will be awesome for storytelling I think :) I wonder if Seasons will have an impact in the world - I'd the snowy mountain area will always be snowy no matter what, but who knows. Would be cool if it changed, but that might be asking too much haha.
  • _sims_Yimi_sims_Yimi Posts: 1,524 Member
    @ThePlumbob @lone_cat Ooooh it looks pretty neat! :mrgreen: I wonder if this will be a playable world or a holiday retreat like Granite Falls is. I could definitely use some of the things they're showing! Being able to actually go mountain climbing sounds amazing. Wait, would that mean that we'd get to go off-grid in the world, send our sims to places that we normally can't click on? Or would it only be for that location in the expansion pack? :o
    J6AKQqX.jpg
  • ThePlumbobThePlumbob Posts: 4,971 Member
    @_sims_Yimi I wonder that too? Kind of looks like a vacation world from the trailer, but a much more substantial one than the others we got, size-wise?

    My guess is that mountain climbing would be specific to that particular world, given how swimming in natural bodies of water only works in Sulani and Britechester. Still cool though!

    Oh man, I think this is the first time this year I'm actually excited for any pack. I hope it turns out as good as the trailer seems to promise, haha.
  • lone_catlone_cat Posts: 417 Member
    @_sims_Yimi @ThePlumbob

    It does look a lot bigger than the other destination worlds. The mountain climbing looks intriguing, and it looks like it leads to some sort of a summit with camping along the way. Now I'm picturing a Yeti showing up, sort of like the bears in Granite Falls. This is perfect for winter with skiing, mountain climbing, and sledding. Not to mention hot springs.

    The world looks so pretty too, with lots of variety. There's the snowy mountain area with pine trees, then the asian-inspired area that looks gorgeous with streams, bamboo trees and cherry blossom trees. I have to say, I'm excited just seeing the scenery. This might beat out Windenburg and Sulani for scenery, imo (I'll have to wait and see :) ).

    Hmm, I'm wondering how seasons will work too. I'm guessing the mountain will probably stay snowy, but maybe the rest of the world will actually have seasons? They showed a snowy looking onsen, so maybe the weather changes, or maybe we get different locations with weather locked.

    I agree, all the other packs this year have been kind of meh, imo. I'm glad we're getting something that combines some things from Sims 3, but also introduces some new things. :)
  • mercuryfoammercuryfoam Posts: 1,156 Member
    edited October 2020
    I am so, so, so excited for this pack! I’m giddy! I’ve always wanted Asian-themed anything and extreme sports in sims 4. Now there’s hiking and mountain climbing and cable cars and skiing and snowboarding and hot springs! Oh dear oh dear.

    I paused at every scene in the trailer. I’m so excited

    - for the food! Hot pot? Dumplings? Shoju? Energy drinks? Sashimi, tamago sushi, ramen, onigiri, yakisoba? And that final scene where they are sharing food? Holy. Wait no, I rewatched the video and they all eat their own food. Aw. At least the after work culture scene is spot on.

    - The cultural deco: Standing air conditioning unit, The beer posters, the teru teru bozu-s, the.. omg I don’t know the word for it in english and google translate is giving me weird stuff, chi/🤔🤔🤔🤔 tea sets, hot sauce, tatami mats, vending machines!

    - Sims are hanging out at the train station? Please don’t make me excited about transportation, EA. Don’t get my hopes up.

    - New interactions: Sims bowing as a greeting, praying, writing prayer plaques, shrines... That would mean I can designate spiritual lots too! YAS

    I've been waiting for this since forever! Now I can start purging my mods folder and return Forgotten Hollow to the vampires. I used the Sakura mod to modify the entire town into cherry blossoms and blue skies. Totally buying this pack. But that means I’ll have to update my game. :lol: oh well.

    @lone_cat martial arts is included in Strangerville. It’s not like Sims 3 where it is a separate skill on its own. It’s labelled under fitness and there is no outcome of win/lose, which is weird because I can make Kian spar with Carly and they’d be evenly matched. :lol:
  • lone_catlone_cat Posts: 417 Member
    @mercuryfoam I totally forgot there was sparring through the military career (I haven't had any of my sims join the career or spar, so I don't know what it all entails). I've had them use the sparring machines, and that's about it. It would be nice if there was a separate martial arts skill. I loved it in Sims 3; they could crack boards, compete with each other and gain different belts. It probably won't happen with this new pack, but I can only dream. :)

    I'm trying not to get my hopes up about transportation. I'm really afraid the train station will just be a rabbit hole or even just a decoration that you can't interact with. I'm keeping my expectations low, so I will be pleasantly surprised if it turns out to be more than I envisioned. I would also love for the chairlift on the ski hill to be interactive, but it might just be a decoration. Even so, this will still be awesome with all the other things they're adding. :)

    I'm even more excited about this because it snowed where I live today, so now I really want to take all my sims out for some winter activities. :)
  • ThePlumbobThePlumbob Posts: 4,971 Member
    @mercuryfoam I thought you might like it! :mrgreen: I feel the same, I was already excited when it was just winter getaway, and than Japan appeared and I was sold. Never would I have imagine they'd combined the two, but I love it!

    A lot of this makes me so nostalgic for our holiday in Japan, the temples, the izakayas, the hot springs in the mountains.... oh man.

    Oh yeah I remember the Sakura mod, though I never tried it. Agree that this new workd that comes with the EP looks amazing. From the blog post it sounds like you can both rent a vacation home and live in the world permanently, which is awesome!

    @lone_cat Haha same about sparing! I've had the training thingamajig before but I didn't even know you could make sims spar with one another haha. Though I kind of thought that if martial arts were a part of the EP, they would have shown it. Aww and yay, first snow, that's early!

    Yeah don't know about the train station, it does feel quite large to just be set dressing, but I don't expect it to be anything but a rabbit hole that teleports you somewhere. Oh man, but I do hope the ski lift is interactive, that would be so neat... better lower my expectations now, haha.
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